View Full Version : pvp viable builds
So I was gone for a few weeks and I noticed i missed a thread dedicated to bashing my attempt at a pvp frenzy barb?
There seems to be a general consensus that only a few builds are pvp viable chars. All this is of course built on the assumption that gfg chars are all that need to be compared.
At the top end of the spectrum you have the kind of chars that could win tournaments.
Hammerdins, Windy druids, fb sorcs, blizz sorcs, bvcs, bone necs, bowazons, hybrid trap sins.
Ofcourse this is because these kind of chars can consistently do well against most possible builds in the game because they have the most potential and when played well, perform well :coffee:
However most of the d2 community isn't very rich, so most of the people you encounter in duel games will be characters that aren't built to their full potential.
You'll see that the majority of duelers have deficiencies, not having 85 resist to all elements, no max damage reduction, no max shield block, not meeting essential faster hit recovery break points, not meeting essential faster cast rate break points.
This is what allows for the creation of a niche for characters that wouldn't do well against perfectly built, well played gfg chars from the first list.
The kind of pvp viable chars that crop up from this lack of of certain characteristics are chars like
Shape shifting druids, trap sins, cs zons, melee sorcs, zerker barbs, conc barbs, fire druids, war cry barbs, light sorcs, nova sorcs, poison necs, frozen orb sorcs, zealots, poison zons, auradins, smiters, wolf barbs, and recently, frenzy barbs~
You wont see these chars winning a tourney any time soon. You will however see them around in public duels. These pub duels is where they will thrive because as always, most of the people that enter pub duels, regardless of the build path they chose, are not built in a gfg manner.
The reality is that these pub duels are pvp arena's, and the defining point of pvp viability. Any build that's viable (able to get a decent number of kills vs number of deaths) in a public dueling game is considered pvp viable.
and to illustrate my point about deficiencies
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3cUlr88Crc
yes, the frenzy barb is pvp viable, he wont be winning a tournament any time soon but he certainly has a place~
and for those that are curious,
my best dueling chars are a bvc, and a bone nec
my favorite dueling chars are fire druid, melee sorc, frenzy barb, and wolf barb~
wizAdept
02-05-2009, 10:03
I do agree with your point that it is not necessary to play a high tier character to do alright and pk among casual players.
It really depends on the crowd you play with. Certain characters have viability in pubs but then dueling in pvp communities you start seeing the limitations of those builds and will have very limited success against those players if you try them. It's not just that they wont be winning tournaments, but that they wont be winning much at all in those communities.
But yes for casual dueling a lot of stuff is possible to get away with.
btw usually pure trappers are considered top tier characters for gm duels. as far as tournies go anyway.
Also you dont seem to differentiate between mid tier and low tier characters. Characters like cs zons or orb sorcs may not be winning tournaments, but they still have a lot of potential in casual pk even among pvp communities. Not to be underestimated although not top tier.
Then there are low tier characters which you really have to try to get kills on. wc barbs and the like go here.
Then there are the below bottom tier characters that are just not viable in caster pk aside from killing bad pubs, conc barbs or poison dagger necs would go here. Frenzy barbs are not too much farther up on the tier spectrum.
some stuff that you said is true, and surely you can play those types in pubs for fun.
however, i have a different experience with this:
However most of the d2 community isn't very rich, so most of the people you encounter in duel games will be characters that aren't built to their full potential.
"full potential" is relative of course, but i see running around loads of pretty nicely equipped chars in pubs. not perfect but more than just decent.
this was different earlier.
further, the difference between being really rich and having decent equipment is huge in terms of prices which are usually not displayed in the stat difference though. the closer your items (rares/crafts mainly) come to perfect stats, the more expensive they become, exponentially.
trap sins are definitely top tier chars.
i would also rather count smiters (or vts) to top tiers than bowzons. bowzons are, despite of what some zon lovers may claim, nowhere close to being top tier builds in 1v1, although not to be underestimated when built and played well.
while smiters/vts do have great potential, but you need some experience, a proper build and really fast locks, which not so many players seem to have.
I will summarize the points of everyone using a simile (or a comparison).
Running a Frenzy instead of a BvC is a lot like running a Holy Shocker instead of an Auradin or Zealer.
For some strange reason, you decide to be entirely less-effective for:
- pride
- ego
- uniqueness
reasons, but in the end, the build is crap.
But yes for casual dueling a lot of stuff is possible to get away with.
and that's what i'm after~ dueling at high lvl with gfg chars vs gfg chars is fun, but when it comes to pub duels, i don't really find satisfaction in killing lower tier chars with a higher tier char, i need a challenge for it to be fun~
btw usually pure trappers are considered top tier characters for gm duels. as far as tournies go anyway.
Not at all i'd think, i haven't met a pure trapper on bnet that i wasn't able to beat. Hybrid trap sin is what i would consider a top tier char for gm duels. Also, from my testing, frenzybarb > pure trapper for reasons i wont go into right now.
Also you dont seem to differentiate between mid tier and low tier characters. Characters like cs zons or orb sorcs may not be winning tournaments, but they still have a lot of potential in casual pk even among pvp communities. Not to be underestimated although not top tier.
Yep, there are different levels of effectiveness between all the pub duel chars, but i didn't wanna make that judgment call so i left it as one group~
As for the low tier chars, it's a challenge to get them to work if at all possible, i find it fun and it's what i try to do ;)
@moritz
and surely you can play those types in pubs for fun.
and that's all i'm looking for ;)
and as for full potential, what i'm referring to is those attributes i mentioned, fcr, fhr, resists etc, my fire druid does unusually well in duels against casters, however most of my wins can be attributed to insufficient resistances (my druid carries -80 to fire), or insufficient fhr (they can't escape a volcano).
It's not too much about the gear they carry, but the resulting stats they have (fhr,fcr, resists, mb etc).
and I'ma ignore the troll~
wizAdept
02-05-2009, 23:16
and that's what i'm after~ dueling at high lvl with gfg chars vs gfg chars is fun, but when it comes to pub duels, i don't really find satisfaction in killing lower tier chars with a higher tier char, i need a challenge for it to be fun~
Depends on the community you duel with. You're saying you won't have any fun pubstomping with toptier characters which leads you to make lower tier characters to have a harder time vs pubs, sure thats a valid argument, but then there are players who are looking to find the opponents which will for challenging duels for their top tier characters. This is part of the reason why good players tend to abandon pub gameplay (going to priv pvp communities instead) aside from occasionally dropping in for a pubstomp.
Not at all i'd think, i haven't met a pure trapper on bnet that i wasn't able to beat. Hybrid trap sin is what i would consider a top tier char for gm duels. Also, from my testing, frenzybarb > pure trapper for reasons i wont go into right now.
Well.. if you are making lower tier characters because pubs just aren't giving you enough challenge, and if youre playing a frenzy barb and winning a good amount of your duels, chances are I'd say that you aren't dueling the same crowd that really shows why trappers/necros are considered top tier characters for gm tournaments.
A frenzy barb should be able to outplay pub trappers because once you get on them you can constantly run and attack through stun, but then trappers play very differently when there is a good player behind it.
btw I have seen a d2pk frenzy barb (played by longtime bvc player travor) be successful vs trappers for much the same reason that he could just run through stun and pk very quickly, but this was a much different setup than the one you use, taking advantage of d2pk perfect rares, using 2x 450 eth balrog blades. Frenzy barbs do however have much much much more limited success vs a lot of other classes however, compared to how a bvc or bva or zerk barb would perform. The frenzy barbs were short lived on d2pk, a few players cloned the setup to try it out but.. its just not that good even compared to other low tier characters. (of course on bnet you are playing much worse equipped and played opponents in pubs)
Yep, there are different levels of effectiveness between all the pub duel chars, but i didn't wanna make that judgment call so i left it as one group~
Ya true, d2 tournaments dont have well recorded statistics like other games to make an official tier list so its mostly just opinions and consensus. However its obvious to most pvp players that there is a world of difference on how mid tier characters do compared to the bottom tier and nonviable (conc barb comes to mind) characters for caster dueling, they should not be lumped together.
As for the low tier chars, it's a challenge to get them to work if at all possible, i find it fun and it's what i try to do ;)Then keep it up. :P
Thats one of the great things about d2, its open ended sandbox pk, some players find it fun to compete with the best of the best, some players find it fun to mess around in pub games trying out different chars, some players find it fun to pubstomp with a hammerdin and juv all day, some players find it fun to trade for wealth and melee duel, some players find it fun to pvm, some players find it fun to pk pvm games. No wrong way to play d2 as long as you are having fun with it imo.
However when you write a guide recommending a certain build and setup, be prepared for opposition and flames from players that are not in your dueling community, because their view on pvp is going to be drastically different from yours. You consider frenzy barbs to be viable where you duel, great for you, keep having fun with it and pking, however players in other communities may look at frenzy as a nonviable build - and that may be true for their community because against well geared and played characters frenzy does show its limitations, they aren't competing against players they can outplay with ease even while on a high tier build themselves. So expect flames from those players, because the build is just not viable for dueling in those pvp circles.
agreed~
also, i went through quite a few changes of gear if you didn't get a chance to read through all 10 pages of the thread. There's alot more than just what's on the first page~
As for pvp circles, i've tried to get more into the private dueling but everyone outside the group i'm in seems to want to duel only for fg :S . You know of any dueling leagues where people duel at higher levels without having to deal with e-rage?
i propose adding teleporting bearsin to top tier list
Any char I play becomes top tier.
SeCKSEgai
04-05-2009, 07:19
There's a huge difference between good trappers and average trappers and they're definitely quite difficult to beat in gm play when played well.
As far as pub trappers go, I rarely see a good one, as they will typically dominate if the game manages to stay gm. I made my ghost because even with my pvm trapper it was fairly boring since I would basically just teleport away from my opponent while keeping my traps between us only mbing when I had clear advantage.
As far as a frenzy, (or any barb for that matter) I would forgo the mb since that roots me in place buying the barb time to desync on me. It may not be the fanciest way to win, but since my little pvm sin would most likely hit the better fcr bp (102 for 9f) I'd just stay out of the way while the traps whittle away my opponents life.
i propose adding teleporting bearsin to top tier list
Why not? You once killed someone in a baal game with it, it MUST be viable.
what is needed for char to be good in pvp:
1. ability to apply as much damage in shortest possible time
(magical damage, unblockable atacks, various damages, very fast attacks like ww, zeal...)
2. ability to survive opponents attacks (block, resistances, D/A/E...)
3. mobility (high fcr teleport, frw, preferably skill based)
frenzy characteristics:
1. low physical damage (unless griefs), ar dependable, blockable, can be reduced by 50 %, can be interupted, fast (5 fpa possible)
2. no block, hard to stack resistances without sacrificing much of gear
3. extremly fast but relying on hitting opponent
so frenzy have weakness in 1st and most notably in 2nd department
what is needed for char to be good in pvp:
1. ability to apply as much damage in shortest possible time
(magical damage, unblockable atacks, various damages, very fast attacks like ww, zeal...)
2. ability to survive opponents attacks (block, resistances, D/A/E...)
3. mobility (high fcr teleport, frw, preferably skill based)
frenzy caharacteristics:
1. low physical damage (unless griefs), ar dependable, blockable, can be reduced by 50 %, can be interupted, fast (5 fpa possible)
2. no block, hard to stack resistances without sacrificing much of gear
3. extremly fast but relying on hitting opponent
so frenzy have weakness in 1st and most notably in 2nd department
simplifying the nuances to make your point is very argh
Why not? You once killed someone in a baal game with it, it MUST be viable.
no no, twice!
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