frenzy - undiscovered pvp jewel

[vknez]

please take a look on this funny topic:

http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=714671&page=8

i lost my willingness to argue...

[sweetalmonds]

those mfers he be killin
frenzy is bÄd

[mystified]

yes it did make me laugh.
i just don't see it...especially when you can 'win' vs windy.

..even an mfer

[jel]

i just don't see it...especially when you can 'win' vs windy.

..even an mfer

Then you should try reading the linked thread before commenting there's even a video clip of what is most likely an MF'er.

Beside the OP seems not to understand what's been discussed in the thread as of the title isn't coherent with the message of the thread, nor does it make much sense to write about a thread in another part of the forum, when it's free for all to write in such thread, and all it seems to do is to endulge flaming to be honest.

[mystified]

i did see the vid, and at most i can say it was lucky, if not jumping bm cuz i could not read conversations.

dru was using bear, looked like 0 block, and seriously sucky life and had no experience of duelling.

might as well join dia runs and pk...

..and claim to be pvp char.


sorry my point is vs decently built pvp-er it would not stand a chance bar some casters

[jel]

sorry my point is vs decently built pvp-er it would not stand a chance bar some casters


..even an mfer

Well that should learn you not to exaggerate, anyway if you're interested in game mechanics of how a windy can loose to a build using frenzy, then read my post in the very same thread.

[TienJe]

Then you should try reading the linked thread before commenting there's even a video clip of what is most likely an MF'er.

Beside the OP seems not to understand what's been discussed in the thread as of the title isn't coherent with the message of the thread, nor does it make much sense to write about a thread in another part of the forum, when it's free for all to write in such thread, and all it seems to do is to endulge flaming to be honest.

an eye for an eye

http://forum.diii.net/showthread.php?t=713464

go nuts

[mystified]

Well that should learn you not to exaggerate, anyway if you're interested in game mechanics of how a windy can loose to a build using frenzy, then read my post in the very same thread.

wow, sorry for exaggeration cuz that is such a wrong thing to do!!

btw in which case all the so called dual vids in the aforementioned thread is well exaggerated.

while I am a fan of frenzy, especially in pvm for its speed, one cannot deny that more you trying to perfect the build, more it becomes like a BvC.
1 pt WW is actually suggested and only instances you will be using frenzy is pretty much reduced to low def casters....who can be take out w/o much probem with bvc anyway if built and played correctly.

windy druids seem to be easiest now since it's very easy to charge up a frenzy off the minions without getting hit by a tornado. Once charged it's very easy to desynch and catch the druid.

i mean seriously, you don't see something wrong in this?

it is already pointed out what the build lacks:
res
def
unintteruptable attack
life
DR%
dependency on AR
range - depening on weapon
attack speed - initial frenzy swings, and consequently damage and range with weapons

I am not even going into details why it need so much improvement because I already gone through that.

if you can honestly think that somehow, this build, can one hit full DR, minion stacking, 99/99 windy dru, in one hit KO or have some chance with it at all then that's not due to the build being good. It's that Windy sucks hard.

In fact i will quote what u said

Look at it, in slow, the druid goes down in the first hit that connects, that's not useable to compare. Beside the frenzy barb was rather lucky, he didn't do anything to remove those minions, life tapped or anything, he really though he could simply out damage a minion stacked druid, you can only do that if the druid is of poor quality or you can move between (or during attacks) so Tornados won't hit you every time.

'nuf said.

Again, I can see this build doing OK vs any elemental based chars (i.e. sorc, trapper)
but even half decent mld will do that with stacked res and sorb.

and with similar wealth (5@/3frw, 3/xx/3frw) spent, I cannot see it defeating a serious dueller who spent time gathering these item, along with it some skillz.

if desynch was a king, and DMG and AR meant everything in a duel, then charger would've ruled. sadly, not the case.
meh, zealot can do more dmg at 4 frame attacks, UNINTERRUPTIBLE

The whole thread, going 10 pages, had not much of improvement on bulid itself or its design. Only thing I can see from all of it is 1 pts WW (resorting to WW hybrid? how is it a hybrid if you use it more in so many instances?), and mentions of few gears, which again, is affected by aforemention problems - range, damage, speed

@tienje// that's not very nice!

but then again, I'd say vknez had bit more experience then OP on other thread.
because no way you can say that

windy druids seem to be easiest now since it's very easy to charge up a frenzy off the minions without getting hit by a tornado. Once charged it's very easy to desynch and catch the druid.

at least with his rating vs char, I somewhat agree (not wholeheartedly tho)

[Jordanbcool]

To the OP, have you even tried a PVP frenzy barb?..

No

Then why do you even feel you're qualified to give an opinion on something you know nothing about?

I could be a jerk and trash your "guide" for a zerk barb but I'll leave that up to you ;)

[TienJe]

@tienje// that's not very nice!

i didn't do anything! just leveling up the playing field :whistling:

[mystified]

I could be a jerk and trash your "guide" for a zerk barb but I'll leave that up to you ;)

bit of OT but that sorta rhymes...no? jerk, Zerk?? :coffee:

i think i need sleep...lol

anyway, Jordan, I did build a pvp frenzier which I quickly scrapped.
I used all res life, and relied on rare circ, eni and rare boots for res and FRW...
tbh, I found shaper did better w.o tele and so much cooler with more dmg and AR.

res was ok when built around some good boots and circlet with nice jewel adds, but attacking was a pain when going against even a slightly defenfensive person (def whores...), and DR was also a bit of problem.

granted did not have as much as wealth as I wanted, but basic gear was pretty much set because all I had to do was strip BvC.

think I did around 5.5K max dmg with ebotdz which was a bit of disappointment really. This again, btw, no where close enough to 1 hit windy even with DS as far as I am aware. My in the progress windy has more life and he doesn't have half the charms yet. Full DR ofc

as much as i like the idea of ful frenzy, it will mearly be an BvC hybrid rip-off at best if you are using same/similar set up with only difference being 1pt ww...which is used often :/
this, I wouldn't be able to call Frenzier by any means. but thats my cup of tea...

[jel]

wow, sorry for exaggeration cuz that is such a wrong thing to do!!

Yes. It's not a nice thing to do, and there's no reason to come with unconstructive answers that really in the best option will be ignored and in the worst will be hurting someone for having used time and effort for making this build and trying to share experiences with others.

I'm glad if you realise this, or have done so already.


btw in which case all the so called dual vids in the aforementioned thread is well exaggerated.

Exaggerated in the sense that the opponents probably hadn't nearly as high a skill level as the person showing us the videos, well yes, it was no material you could conclude that in an equal skill, gm environment, that frenzy would top these builds.


i mean seriously, you don't see something wrong in this?


The sole reason I wrote in the thread in the first place, was because someone claimed the build to be completely useless unless the opponent sucked, that was my problem and that was what I responded to.


if you can honestly think that somehow, this build, can one hit full DR, minion stacking, 99/99 windy dru, in one hit KO or have some chance with it at all then that's not due to the build being good. It's that Windy sucks hard.

In fact i will quote what u said



'nuf said.


And I still stand by that quote, but that was not what I was refering to when I suggested you to read what I'd written in the thread, as that wasn't everything.


and with similar wealth (5@/3frw, 3/xx/3frw) spent, I cannot see it defeating a serious dueller who spent time gathering these item, along with it some skillz.


Depends on the opponents skill level, and eventhough there's always a chance for a win, using the right strategy.


if desynch was a king, and DMG and AR meant everything in a duel, then charger would've ruled. sadly, not the case.
meh, zealot can do more dmg at 4 frame attacks, UNINTERRUPTIBLE


Yes a Zealot should be superior in melee unless a 1 point is spended in WW or other ways of dealing damage without having to stand face to face. The sole thing is tactics a frenzy bulid can not, like you state, rely on being able to outdamage most opponents or catch those who're easier, however using the right tactics, as I've written about in the linked thread you actually do stand a chance against many opponents.

[mystified]

@jel//
while I appreciate your effort on making alternative pvp build for barbs at HLD level there are something never meant to be.
Like bowazon in vlld.
Avenger in...well any category.

Frenzy was never a new idea for a pvp build and many have tried and failed already.

My point is unless there is a statistical data to back up win ratio, your chance of winning is anything but reliance on factors based on luck (i.e. lack, skill level difference), rather than the build`s quality.
Yes you are right in saying there is a chance to win against anyone.
Also there is a chance that you might be teleported randomly into somewhere else in the world because anything is possible... :coffee:

just saying using right tactics is required simply won`t do, because in saying that, everyone can say exactly same thing back. (hence this `debate` which is never a productive thing..)
def whore bone necs, psn mancers, invisible arrow zons with their own desynch tricks, stupid stunlock sins, desynch hammerfield dins, def whore desynching FoH...I can keep going on through all the chars and you know this is true.
and when put together, against most cookie cutters frenzier has less than good chance of survival.

I am too aggressive for my own good, and this is usually my downfall with my nec. but seeing how bloody defensive these necs can be, i cannot see how you can go anywhere.
BVC is rather overrated, and if you think leap and DoD wil kill nec, think again cuz nec players will not agree.
and if their uninterruptible 4frame WW DoD and fast tele won't do much good with nec, what good do you think you will do vs nec? Def whore + wall spammage? golem slow? lets go bm and IM/decrep the living hell out of you?
This will be kind of 'tatical' response an opponent can give you. and simply saying desynch, double throw, leap and all doesn't cut it, as again many opposing side argument will be same.

i can relate back to that post tienje has posted.

zerker, while one of builds built by some people, isn`t going to be one of more competitive build. but at least with this build your have option of NL/CL which I found to be quite nice if executed corectly.

with frenzy, you are sort of becoming more and more of a bvc if you are doing all these 1 pt WW and 1 pts zerks and so on. which again I can't for the shame call it frenzier. Rather a BvC hybrid.

So my conclusion? sure you CAN make a frenzier, with situational gear to have increased chance to beat any opponent. (and not quite making it..)
but it will be like building an vlld Bowazon. It simply won't do very good vs better builds.

[vknez]

Yes a Zealot should be superior in melee unless a 1 point is spended in WW or other ways of dealing damage without having to stand face to face. The sole thing is tactics a frenzy bulid can not, like you state, rely on being able to outdamage most opponents or catch those who're easier, however using the right tactics, as I've written about in the linked thread you actually do stand a chance against many opponents.

face to face you will die in 1 zeal. if you try to keep distance with widow or throwing us suggest in topic, you will be dead in few charges.

i dont get tienje's post with link to my guide. whats the point? zerker is far superior to the frenzy cause of few reasons:
max block, max dr, better unresistable damage, better ar

as i stated in frenzy topic, i have tried frenzy barb on d2pk and he was trashed (with all perfect equipment)

[TienJe]

i dont get tienje's post with link to my guide. whats the point? zerker is far superior to the frenzy cause of few reasons:
max block, max dr, better unresistable damage, better ar

as i stated in frenzy topic, i have tried frenzy barb on d2pk and he was trashed (with all perfect equipment)
merely pointing out the irony in this thread

a pure zerker barb (especially a leap-run-then-smack-them one) is as impractical as his frenzy barb is

[vknez]

merely pointing out the irony in this thread

a pure zerker barb (especially a leap-run-then-smack-them one) is as impractical as his frenzy barb is

i dont agree with you at all. in that way anything that dont teleport and is melee is impractical?

[TienJe]

i dont agree with you at all. in that way anything that dont teleport and is melee is impractical?

in general pvp yes

[vknez]

in general pvp yes

bah........

[SeCKSEgai]

in general pvp yes

i have to agree with tienje - a barb with o def and just max block, that's something my ghost can tango with without fear ;)

Against elementals, it has its strength since your def doesn't matter - but that's assuming you can catch your opponent before they don't land a killing blow on you.

With that said, there's really no advantage, I'd take a ww bvc anyday. (I still prefer the ghost for the mb =)

As far as everything else, desync can be mean, and it's gotten me killed in most situations where the opponent got me nl'd and stunlocked. However, in those situations, its because I get caught and get locked and have no real means of getting away before the damage is done.

With a frenzy barb on the otherhand, I just don't see that happening. Pure frenzy may desync me, but once we're back up to speed, I an react and should survive the hit - thus I can go to work. Against any decent sorc, they'll be teleporting frequently and often try to catch you in spammed attacks as you chase.

Even against a zon, I have the feeling they'll outdamage before the frenzy can do its job.

Against a hammer you need to be too close and a decent hammer should be able to tag you.

Against a smiter you're done.

Against a foher you're done.

Against a windy, a decent one will simply tank better with a minion stack and to be that close and not moving means you're taking nados and you're done.

[vknez]

non teleport chars i play in pvp (successfully, otherwise they will be transfer to mule status):
zerker (altough teleing sometimes)
wolfbarb
fury/rabies
fireclaws
trang necro
zealot

[SeCKSEgai]

It all depends on how you define successful. Getting kills in pvp means you have to factor in your opponents builds and skill level as well.

A wolfbarb can be effective in that its base is a barbarian, thus allowing for high life/def again ar dependent opponents.

Fury/rabies - get that posion going and survive long enough to land killing blow

haven't seen a fireclaws out and about so can't comment there

trang necro would be easy pickings for my ghost but it may have advantages against other builds, just none come to mind, but hey, it looks different.

zealot - when their hits land, its pretty painful

As for the zerker as an anti caster, your issue is keeping up with your target and getting in close enough to land a hefty blow or 2. If your target can teleport often with speed, you really shouldn't be seeing a win anytime soon.

[vknez]

It all depends on how you define successful. Getting kills in pvp means you have to factor in your opponents builds and skill level as well.

A wolfbarb can be effective in that its base is a barbarian, thus allowing for high life/def again ar dependent opponents.

Fury/rabies - get that posion going and survive long enough to land killing blow

haven't seen a fireclaws out and about so can't comment there

trang necro would be easy pickings for my ghost but it may have advantages against other builds, just none come to mind, but hey, it looks different.

zealot - when their hits land, its pretty painful

As for the zerker as an anti caster, your issue is keeping up with your target and getting in close enough to land a hefty blow or 2. If your target can teleport often with speed, you really shouldn't be seeing a win anytime soon.

with trang necro i have easy time vs smiters, can duel hammerdins, bvc, javazons, all shapers, zealots. problem are sorcs and traps

with zerker thing is if i cant catch the casters then i lure them to catch me...

[jel]

I'm a bit curious, why do you continue with this thread at all? Comeon, it seems clear that when someone (yes you vknez) talks a frenzier down like that, but still says that other, not as fast, not as damaging and not having as many hit points builds can work well, that there's something more to it than the frenzy build itself.

I've read a bit further in the replies and comeon do all of you really believe a frenzier wouldn't use teleport? That's like a hammerdin only relying on charge, of course teleport will be used when it's an advantage.

[wizAdept]

as i stated in frenzy topic, i have tried frenzy barb on d2pk and he was trashed (with all perfect equipment)

About a year or two ago (back before d2pk2.4 and the reset) Travor did make a successful frenzy pvp barb that was cloned by quite a few players on d2pk. idk if you heard of it, prplppleater was the character name, and as implied - he was very purple and ate people.
The build was similar to a bvc except he used 2x rare 450 swords (balrog blades I believe but I could be wrong was a long time ago and I didnt pay too much attention to those chars)

It still had its limitations vs a lot of classes and nowhere near as good vs all as a bvc or bva (obviously) but it did do alright in some matchups. Was kinda hilarious how it would run and attack through stun at c/c trappers.


Still though.. even seeing a frenzy barb function and pk, I gotta side with the argument that frenzy barbs are not good pvp builds. Not anywhere near as good as zerk barbs imo. And certainly a much longer way away from being as good as a bvc or bva.

[mystified]

I'm a bit curious, why do you continue with this thread at all? Comeon, it seems clear that when someone (yes you vknez) talks a frenzier down like that, but still says that other, not as fast, not as damaging and not having as many hit points builds can work well, that there's something more to it than the frenzy build itself.

I've read a bit further in the replies and comeon do all of you really believe a frenzier wouldn't use teleport? That's like a hammerdin only relying on charge, of course teleport will be used when it's an advantage.

yes vknez is talking down frenzier.
but zerker has few advantages here like block and DR and more stacked res

frenzy, on the otherhand, hasn't.

AR isn't impressive,
damage, is actually not that impressive either.
no DR
0def or low def (either case do not make much difference to melee)
lacking res

so what you are syaing about vknez, that

still says that other, not as fast, not as damaging and not having as many hit points builds can work well

is what you are actually saying too.
and zerker doesn't work well against all chars.

it may pvp with some char, but (for now) it is not a fully functional pvp character in most parts. Accept that.

it's not like other people haven't tried...

[jel]

I had decided not to continue responding, however I'll do it again now, but I'll not go through all the last posts that have been written, if someone wants some arguments answered by me, they'll have to write it again.

yes vknez is talking down frenzier.
but zerker has few advantages here like block and DR and more stacked res

Since when do you need DR and res vs. a sorc?
Most of the things you actually needs this against (or needs is a bit much) you'll be using whirlwind.

AR isn't impressive, Not if you use frenzy to hit, no, but if your AR is too low to hit a caster (not including paladins) then you use the wrong items, and against those that actually defeat you in toe on toe you do of course you whirlwind.


damage, is actually not that impressive either.
Not needed, it's fast enough, even frenzy itself which only swings with 5 frames is fast enough and can easily deal enough damage to stun down most opponents you'll use frenzy against.


0def or low def (either case do not make much difference to melee)The situations where you need defense is also the situations where you use whirlwind, again whirlwind is superior against all melee attacks, and it require a lot of skills to actually catch a barb mid whirl and take a few swing at the barb.


lacking res


Using the wrong gear, or trying to use way to general gear than the build is intended for, flexibility goes with the stash.


so what you are syaing about vknez, that



is what you are actually saying too.
and zerker doesn't work well against all chars.

it may pvp with some char, but (for now) it is not a fully functional pvp character in most parts. Accept that.

it's not like other people haven't tried...

Again I think you miss my own intentions with frenzy, I'm not the one who actually uses it to takes swings, I use it for the desynch power, however as many times it's been forced down me as an opinion I'd have, I've accepted to defend the idea, eventhough many other combinations are superior, so again no I'm not saying a frenzier in itself is a top dog, like Vknez tries to do with a Berzerk barb, which I actually admire him for, as that's something I know I'm not skilled enough in, just look at the calculations, Berzerk may deal a lot of damage, but it's such a slow swing that even combining with leap, or warcry or what you intend, every serious dueler should still be able to teleport away before you can land a hit.

[Narc]

Thousands of people play this game. Ever think that those people have already tried all the builds out there and you aren't a pioneer who's found some sort of Pandora's Box?

[jel]

Thousands of people play this game. Ever think that those people have already tried all the builds out there and you aren't a pioneer who's found some sort of Pandora's Box?

Who're you adressing?

Edit: I mean comeon, it makes no sense, no one here's talking about some out of the box build, and no one is claiming to've found something that works amazingly that no one knew about. Finally Pandora's Box is not something positive, it was the box containing all the diseases of the world.

As I can see of Narc's user statistics the probability of him responding to this thread the next weeks are pretty slim, so if anyone have any ideas to what he may mean, please tell.

PS: If you're interested in why your argument of "given the amount of people having played the game and given the amount of possible builds, everything has been tried, so no need to continue research" doesn't hold, well read this thread:
http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=710173 as I'm not going to repeat the same arguments again, if you've some counter points that isn't addressed in the thread, I'll respond, as I don't think this is a thread you actually can go off topic from.

[mystified]

@ jel
sorry but it is late and I just don't have a will to read a 'guide' to BM.
so that thread u linked..what is it about and your point was?

if you are saying that this is something that people played yet comes with new ideas, it does not hold. because
1) BM summoners are stories of old. Trang poisonmancer is just about only new thing I heard in world of pvp that actually work.
2) the core of builds themselves don't change. In a way poisonmancer was around, only gear and tactics involving that gear changed. This holds true for most builds.

EDIT* I've ready first two and alst page which included your comment.
Simply put, you are on the wrong side, defending wrong idea.
This, not only does it entitles you to look bad on that thread, makes some interesting comments here look bad.
Both threads, (one linked to barb forum made by OP, and one to Nec forum by yourself) are similar in a way that
1) poorly researched
2) poorly executed with exaggerated claims
3) had no or little testing and experience from both thread's OP's
4) poor ideas that have already been tried and failed miserably serveral times over life of this game.
5) which draws conclusion that whilst they show enthusiasm in their builds and characters, they have no idea what they are talking about.

BTW, I don't get what narc said either, but comment is directed at you for sure.

and here I got with answering your comment

Since when do you need DR and res vs. a sorc?
Most of the things you actually needs this against (or needs is a bit much) you'll be using whirlwind.
i hope that was a typo. You NEED res against sorc.
and my point earlier, using WW makes you more of BvC hybrid, that has weaker ww, and less defence, and less life.
wtf is a point when u compare 4 frame attack vs 5 frame attack which is interruptible?
only thing you will get is that you wil be unique..and your but handed to any competent opponent in a silver platter.

Not if you use frenzy to hit, no, but if your AR is too low to hit a caster (not including paladins) then you use the wrong items, and against those that actually defeat you in toe on toe you do of course you whirlwind.
again WW.
so conclustion here would be if you want to win use WW, but in situations you wanna impress chars that you can kill ANYWAY, use Frenzy??

Not needed, it's fast enough, even frenzy itself which only swings with 5 frames is fast enough and can easily deal enough damage to stun down most opponents you'll use frenzy against.
NO IT DON'T!

This has been a bugging question for me; and posibly many other who commented on this thread:
Have you duelled before? With someone competant? Or are you just theorycrafting?
Which brings me..are you Ce Olba? (just moved to frenzy instead of bvc) (U_M might kill me for this..)

The situations where you need defense is also the situations where you use whirlwind, again whirlwind is superior against all melee attacks, and it require a lot of skills to actually catch a barb mid whirl and take a few swing at the barb.
no it won't be superior because
a) bvc's find it hard as it is vs decent smiter or zealot.
b) your opponent (unless lacks experience) will know few tricks to go against a barb
c) with your def and lack of block, I'd say fury would actually be superior to your WW. and lack of AR on it too. And damage would be laughable

Using the wrong gear, or trying to use way to general gear than the build is intended for, flexibility goes with the stash.
i meant general duelling.
in anycase you willl still have difficulties with likes of mage/TV/VT/CS zon/hybrid zon/fury rabies etc.
yes, i know, everyone does too. but you more.
the build already cannot have both DR and res at same time. So any character that uses two at same time will seriously make your damage and AR suffer, to a point wher ehybrid deals more dmg.

and stash space is not infinite. Just filling my stash with back up res charms cost my bvc some space as it is. I don't see how you will cope with even more gear changes


I use it for the desynch power, however as many times it's been forced down me as an opinion I'd have, I've accepted to defend the idea, eventhough many other combinations are superior, so again no I'm not saying a frenzier in itself is a top dog,
you don't need mass stacks of frw AND frenzy to desynch. Thats just not needed.
so from this statement, i can gather that you are saying frenzy in itself is not a top dog.
so how will a character, who uses frenzy and synergies it to make damage go higher, will be able to use as an offensive skill if frenzy itself won't be good?
As in your suggestion 1 point WW?
With likelyhood of -ed and very low AR?
will that be a suitable pvp char?

this is point that OP was making (in a very bad way), and so was I.

The build, quite simply put, is not competitive enough to make into pvp material.

If you doubt this, go into any pub game, spent few hours trying out various combination in regards to weapons, charms, gears and so on.

[Jordanbcool]

I'd like to say a few things in response to everything. While I don't have time to respond to all posts I'll make general comments.

1) As far as a WW bvc vs. Frenzy, honestly I would have to side with a WW bvc. Like everyone has said the various tactics combined with teleport, leap etc. are IMO more effective in PVP then a full frenzier.

2) That being said that doesn't make frenzy bad in PVP. A hammerdin does irresistible/unblockable magic damage. Does that mean that all other PVP palidans are obsolete? Certainly not. Like all classes there is more then one PVP viable skill for barbarians (on that note zerk is still a viable build/skill, even though I bashed it earlier). Viable doesn't mean "own" everything. If a build can kill other characters then it becomes viable. This is why there is a guide for auradins in the PVP section.

3) A 1pt WW investment is not a "hybrid" barbarian. If that's the case then a BVC WW barbarian is a hybrid berserker, or a hybrid leap attacker. Maybe if I invested 10pts into WW then it could be considered a hybrid.

4) If a smiter beats a WW barbarian in any situation, either the barb is inexperienced or there was some sort of lag. With proper WWing tactics a smiter should never beat a WW barb, same with a zealot. WW mechanics are the SAME regardless of 20pts or 1pt. I've dueled many smiters and melee palidans and they all fall with ease with smart whirling.

5) The main purpose of the guide is to make something else besides a WW BVC. Sure maybe a WW bvc is better but does that mean a frenzy build shouldn't be made or even attempted? I'm sick of seeing several PVP viable builds for all other classes except the barbarian and with the help of a few other forum members I'd like to atleast try to start up a new build.

Before everyone starts dismissing this build already before even trying it, why not in all your infinite wealth and time make one of your own and try it out? If anything it will give some concrete proof to stop us from attempting something so "foolish".

[Jordanbcool]

i hope that was a typo. You NEED res against sorc.
and my point earlier, using WW makes you more of BvC hybrid, that has weaker ww, and less defence, and less life.
wtf is a point when u compare 4 frame attack vs 5 frame attack which is interruptible?
only thing you will get is that you wil be unique..and your but handed to any competent opponent in a silver platter.


again WW.
so conclustion here would be if you want to win use WW, but in situations you wanna impress chars that you can kill ANYWAY, use Frenzy??


NO IT DON'T!

This has been a bugging question for me; and posibly many other who commented on this thread:
Have you duelled before? With someone competant? Or are you just theorycrafting?
Which brings me..are you Ce Olba? (just moved to frenzy instead of bvc) (U_M might kill me for this..)


no it won't be superior because
a) bvc's find it hard as it is vs decent smiter or zealot.
b) your opponent (unless lacks experience) will know few tricks to go against a barb
c) with your def and lack of block, I'd say fury would actually be superior to your WW. and lack of AR on it too. And damage would be laughable


i meant general duelling.
in anycase you willl still have difficulties with likes of mage/TV/VT/CS zon/hybrid zon/fury rabies etc.
yes, i know, everyone does too. but you more.
the build already cannot have both DR and res at same time. So any character that uses two at same time will seriously make your damage and AR suffer, to a point wher ehybrid deals more dmg.

and stash space is not infinite. Just filling my stash with back up res charms cost my bvc some space as it is. I don't see how you will cope with even more gear changes



you don't need mass stacks of frw AND frenzy to desynch. Thats just not needed.
so from this statement, i can gather that you are saying frenzy in itself is not a top dog.
so how will a character, who uses frenzy and synergies it to make damage go higher, will be able to use as an offensive skill if frenzy itself won't be good?
As in your suggestion 1 point WW?
With likelyhood of -ed and very low AR?
will that be a suitable pvp char?

this is point that OP was making (in a very bad way), and so was I.

The build, quite simply put, is not competitive enough to make into pvp material.

If you doubt this, go into any pub game, spent few hours trying out various combination in regards to weapons, charms, gears and so on.

Yes you need res. against sorcs. My current barbarian has maxed hell resistances. Originally this build lacked in resistances but with a few minor equipment changes this is easily fixed. (I used a few 3% FRW scs with resist all mods).

Who cares about defense in PVP? This isn't a BVB build. Also I'm pretty sure a WW duel weilding BVC will have a similar defense rating as a frenzier. Since in both builds you only put one point into iron skin and shout. Also the gear is pretty similar, which shows again that the defense is about the same. Everything else you said is correct.

I'm unsure why people are saying a smiter will give a wirling barb trouble? I think everyone that has been losing to smiters needs to practice a bit more ;)

My doomz and desynch frenzy cripple nearly all melee builds. Most of the time their swing speed is horribly slow or they don't even see me coming before they are dead (just standing around looking dumb, atleast a caster can teleport...).

You said this build has no DR? Wrong. Last time I checked dungos has DR on it :)

From what I've seen so far it seems like this build is more "viable" then you guys make it out to be. Granted I haven't dueled everyone out there but so far in the pub games I've been my barb has been doing pretty well and he's not even finished.

[Uncle_Mike]

2) That being said that doesn't make frenzy bad in PVP. A hammerdin does irresistible/unblockable magic damage. Does that mean that all other PVP palidans are obsolete? Certainly not. Like all classes there is more then one PVP viable skill for barbarians (on that note zerk is still a viable build/skill, even though I bashed it earlier). Viable doesn't mean "own" everything. If a build can kill other characters then it becomes viable. This is why there is a guide for auradins in the PVP section.

Nope it doesn't. What triggers some of those comments you consider unwelcome are usually statements from people creating those non cookie-cutter builds. Frenzy can obviously be used in PvP just like any other build. It's definitely not the worst char out there. Everytime a thread like this is posted people will chime in with "Windies are ez, so are bow amazons" because they happened to beat some terrible chars in public games. You need to be able to kill a certain class with consistency. You also need your oponents to be decent to make a valid point.




4) If a smiter beats a WW barbarian in any situation, either the barb is inexperienced or there was some sort of lag. With proper WWing tactics a smiter should never beat a WW barb, same with a zealot. WW mechanics are the SAME regardless of 20pts or 1pt. I've dueled many smiters and melee palidans and they all fall with ease with smart whirling.

Good smiters are damn difficult to beat for a BvC. Huge defence, max block, holy freeze flashing. And no, best smiters don't rely on lifetap to win even though most of them use dracs or exile or both :)


5) The main purpose of the guide is to make something else besides a WW BVC. Sure maybe a WW bvc is better but does that mean a frenzy build shouldn't be made or even attempted? I'm sick of seeing several PVP viable builds for all other classes except the barbarian and with the help of a few other forum members I'd like to atleast try to start up a new build.


Nothing wrong with that, they just seem to be too excited at times :)

edit: how much def does your barb have? Most BvCs spend points in shout, it's just iron-skin that's a one point wonder.

Also you should duel a good smiter to see how difficult they are.

@jel - summoners aren't a new idea at all, i remember huge flamewars on the subject years ago.

[jel]

@ jel
sorry but it is late and I just don't have a will to read a 'guide' to BM.

You're right it must have been late, as I think you didn't really get the point. Anyway I'll answer your post as it in my opinion makes you stand in a bad light, compared to many of your other better posts.

@ jel
so that thread u linked..what is it about and your point was?



If you're interested in why your argument of "given the amount of people having played the game and given the amount of possible builds, everything has been tried, so no need to continue research" doesn't hold, well read this thread:
http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=710173 as I'm not going to repeat the same arguments again, if you've some counter points that isn't addressed in the thread, I'll respond, as I don't think this is a thread you actually can go off topic from.


I believe the part I highlighted should make it clear what the point was, and yes I didn't participate before the end, and I did make it clear that eventhough numerous of people havde played this game, taking into consideration the amount of people following the same guides (just look at pre-LOD, the majority of chars were barbarians and necromancers, not an evenly distributed amount of people trying all posibilies), and even as of today there're many skills we don't know completely how works, just see how late we got the Skeleton Mage damage information, the lack of attack speed of monsters, or how few that know about how auras affect monsters attack speed, stuff like the 15 frames pause or that Volcano hits a target with 2 fpa, or just about wsg is something that only few knows, yet if his claim should be true, most people on b.net would knew this. The problem is the assumption on information availability and the assumption on a large percentage will try to get this information, I know how many b.net people think, or I at least I believe I do, and these are not testers, and if they knew something, they'd not spread it around, luckily (Critical doesn't work with poison anyone? Meteor steal experience? Frozen monsters unfreeze when hit by a fire attack?)

The few persons that actually have contributed a lot to our knowledge are the people you find on the forums, as that has been the way to spread information, it's people like those here, at the bazin, many places, and only because they take the time to test stuff and look through game files, do we have this information. Look at how late we discovered that no melee 2 fps attacks existed, or many other examples.

Finally the whole idea of "we know everything, no need to do more research" ruins progress in any area, do you know how lucky we were that when a lot decided a bit before the start of the 20th century that we knew everything physics had to offer, that first Einstein with his relativity theory, later Schrödinger and Heisenberg with quantum mechanics and so forth came with new stunning theories that show how little we actually knew. They at least didn't think to themselves "Yep they're probably right, no need to keep on working with this, hey who cares if it would mean that no such things as cell phones were invented, etc.).


@ jel
if you are saying that this is something that people played yet comes with new ideas, it does not hold. because
1) BM summoners are stories of old. Trang poisonmancer is just about only new thing I heard in world of pvp that actually work.
2) the core of builds themselves don't change. In a way poisonmancer was around, only gear and tactics involving that gear changed. This holds true for most builds.

True BM summoners aren't a new idea, I never claimed that, the discussion part was on the general part, it must have been very late, honestly, as I think what I meant was pretty obvious.

@ jel
EDIT* I've ready first two and alst page which included your comment.
Simply put, you are on the wrong side, defending wrong idea.

I never defended his idea, I defended the idea that if you don't know it, test it, if you know, show your tests, in stead of flaming people for thinking of builds other wouldn't consider and claiming it wouldn't work as intended yet not knowing how it would work. Look at the leap attack thread, see how people respected that guy who wanted to build a leap attack barbarian, letting him test it for himself to see that leap attack doesn't really catch anything that doesn't stand, in stead of flaming him, eventhough he even didn't have any theories of who leap attack should be good, like the guy in the other thread had.


This, not only does it entitles you to look bad on that thread, makes some interesting comments here look bad.
Both threads, (one linked to barb forum made by OP, and one to Nec forum by yourself) are similar in a way that
1) poorly researched
Yep, no one bothered to test the stuff, you're right, that was what I tried to make clear in the thread.

2) poorly executed with exaggerated claims

Yep, he never came back with knowledge of how the results went, that just strengthen what I write, as the information wasn't spread, now all his tests may be something he know about, but no one else knows it, not at least public in general, so someone else have to do the exact same tests if we should find out if it actually works. Oh and if you doubt the power of summons, check my thread on reviving tomb vipers, as there I have made tests, though on high life monsters, which shows their damage can be quite incredible, finally look at how the 0.5 damage penalty have been more and more accepted since the thread I linked to, back then it wasn't general knowledge, now I see it written almost every day.

3) had no or little testing and experience from both thread's OP's

Yes you mentioned this in 1). Though this wasn't my point to bring up, I did also defend that given you're not able to test it yourself right now, you still have every right to go on a public forum and 1) tell others your idea, so they know why it should be tested, 2) ask others to test it, as you're not able to. If you've a problem with that, then just don't respond, but if you find the idea convincing enough and interesting enough I'm certain you'd test it, unless you've something personally against someone of course.

4) poor ideas that have already been tried and failed miserably serveral times over life of this game.

If there for every 100 poor ideas are one great, I'll say we're lucky. So it doesn't justify anything.

5) which draws conclusion that whilst they show enthusiasm in their builds and characters, they have no idea what they are talking about.

No, as it was never tested no one ever found out, about the frenzy barb, I've made my statements clear I believe, reread them today if you didn't understand them due to how late it was.


BTW, I don't get what narc said either, but comment is directed at you for sure.


Then he should try to read the thread, as I never claimed such thing, not here at least, and again his whole idea of enough tests have been made to we should know everything by now of this game, eventhough he most likely knows close to nothing about the game, is quite humorous.



i hope that was a typo. You NEED res against sorc.
DR is what I write when I mean physical damage resist, PDR, when physical damage reduced by integer, if you meant resist in general, then write resist.


and my point earlier, using WW makes you more of BvC hybrid, that has weaker ww, and less defence, and less life.
wtf is a point when u compare 4 frame attack vs 5 frame attack which is interruptible?
only thing you will get is that you wil be unique..and your but handed to any competent opponent in a silver platter.
Again I never claimed frenzy swinging attack to be better than whirlwind, I've tried to make this point clear several times, and you may call it a hybrid, but do you aslo call bowazons with 1 point fury hybrids? Anyway it doesn't matter what you'll call any build, we're debating how to utilize frenzy, not what the name of the build should be.

The point is, that Vknez postulates frenzy will loose against everything, that's I claim that not to be true, that's what we're debating as that's from the part where he makes his link in this thread. So do you agree? Will a frenzy barb, loose to every build in the game? Or at least every standard build to be precise.

The point about 4 frame vs. 5 frame is that often 5 frames swing is fast enough to maintain stun lock.


again WW.
so conclustion here would be if you want to win use WW, but in situations you wanna impress chars that you can kill ANYWAY, use Frenzy??

No the conclusion is, do you get up against anything stronger than your frenzier in face on face, you'd use another utility, may it be Berzerk, WW, Double Throw or anything where you may either outdamage or doesn't need to stand face on face. This doesn't mean you won't desynch with frenzy, make passes through with whirlwind while desynched so actually getting that first strike berzerk of so you have a major advantage.

Oh and yeah a BvC can deal with casters, take a werewolf and compare it to a wind druid, everything a werewolf beats, does a wind druid beat, no doubt the wind druid is better suited for pvp as it also beats what the werewolf doesn't, yet no one tells how stupid it is to build a werewolf in stead of a wind druid, talking about impressing someone. Honestly I don't know how others may feel, but I don't care about impressing others, my arguments should be enough to convince, if not I fail, but I'll never try to gain authority this way.



NO IT DON'T!

This has been a bugging question for me; and posibly many other who commented on this thread:
Have you duelled before? With someone competant? Or are you just theorycrafting?
Which brings me..are you Ce Olba? (just moved to frenzy instead of bvc) (U_M might kill me for this..)

1/12th of hit points pr. hit, means the opponent will be in hit recovery, it's often sufficient for the places where frenzy actually do well.

If you're interested in whether I've dueled before or not, or just theorycrafts, well you can read my other threads as I've clearly wrote out whether or not I've dueled with a frenzier and whether or not I've dueled with other classes.

Nope I'm not Ce Olba, and why should Uncle_Mike be mad about you asking? If I was Ce Olba, don't you think the mods would have banned me by now? Finally I do not let my feelings go into my posts, so I don't write negative stuff about others while typing, if you've got that impression, then you've misinterpetated something, as I've never tried to insult you.


no it won't be superior because
a) bvc's find it hard as it is vs decent smiter or zealot.
b) your opponent (unless lacks experience) will know few tricks to go against a barb
c) with your def and lack of block, I'd say fury would actually be superior to your WW. and lack of AR on it too. And damage would be laughable


a) telesmiters can be hard, but are few and far between, all the rest, well maybe I should ask if you've dueled before?
b) Like? If we're talking BM I'm certain it'll be easy to counter, but try me.
c) Again stuff like this may really make me believe you haven't dueled before, a BvC doesn't need block, and nor does a 1 point frenzy hybrid, if you loose to a werewolf you lack skills, and if you really have a hard time, use DT, as a werewolf can never catch you.


i meant general duelling.
in anycase you willl still have difficulties with likes of mage/TV/VT/CS zon/hybrid zon/fury rabies etc.
yes, i know, everyone does too. but you more.
the build already cannot have both DR and res at same time. So any character that uses two at same time will seriously make your damage and AR suffer, to a point wher ehybrid deals more dmg.


Chars like these are only suited for general dueling when pubbing they need a lot of gear change.

I've answered in the previous thread my view on those opponent, look at the link vknez gives you. Do you really have problems with wereworlfs and amazons? Well surprises me, maybe I just haven't met any good people of these char types.

See now you use DR as physical damage reduce% and res as elemental resist.

Again take for instance a VT, you do of course stack against the FOH, as that's by far the most dangerous, the point is that you don't have to give up nearly as much as he has to make his FOH to work, than you to stack it out, so you're just going against a weak smiter, and yes you've been weakened just as well, but not nearly as much.


you don't need mass stacks of frw AND frenzy to desynch. Thats just not needed.
No, but it sure is effective, anyway you're right frenzy alone is enough, but if you want to have fun you'll stack those fr/w charm as they make your speed a lot higher. Unless you've ~100 fr/w from other sources of items.


so from this statement, i can gather that you are saying frenzy in itself is not a top dog.

What did you first get this now?


so how will a character, who uses frenzy and synergies it to make damage go higher, will be able to use as an offensive skill if frenzy itself won't be good?
As in your suggestion 1 point WW?
With likelyhood of -ed and very low AR?
will that be a suitable pvp char?


Yes 1 point ww works fine, or read the thread vknez linked to, I give other suggestions.


this is point that OP was making (in a very bad way), and so was I.

The build, quite simply put, is not competitive enough to make into pvp material.

No it's not a point, it's a conclusion, and as it is, many in this thread simply doesn't agree, just look at jordanbcool or Shocker, and heck they actually use the frenzy swing attack and still have succes, that's quite more impressive than what I've been able to do.


@jel - summoners aren't a new idea at all, i remember huge flamewars on the subject years ago.
And I never claimed they were, how did you come up to the conclusion I claimed so? Both you and mystified seems to have done so, so I'm interested in knowing what part of my comments have made this conclusion as it was never the intention.

[SeCKSEgai]

@ jel - I thought my posts could get longwinded at times, but I think you've topped me there =)

@Jordanbcool (http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/member.php?u=169209) With so many smiters around, there's a big difference between pvm oriented and pvp. Pvm smiters are typically easier to defeat as they will try to charge or smite constantly as you whirl away from them, allowing you to hit while they miss and making things pretty straightforward. Pvp smiters on the otherhand will shift smite when they need to, which allows them the advantage if you don't force them to move. Trying to dod or even make a single pass at a shift smiter and you'll notice the smiter will typically do more damage - grief smite really hurts.

As for chasing, the smarter ones know if you try to ww away when they smite, they start to walk on you to maintain their block. Their 75% ctb along with high def make them difficult targets as is since ww is ar based and can be blocked with a shield. Being that you can't block smite on a barb even with a shield, a few good smites and you're just about done if not dead already.

[mystified]

oh crap..blew what i was writing. crap.

k here is points.
1) it is more viable for general pvp then likes of avenger, or anything unusual like that
2) however its nowhere near as good vs any of staple cookie cutter build. vknez said this and i agree. few match up will be in your favour namley vs sorc, trappers, and aggressive bone necs too where you have good chance.
3) but overall pvp in non-pub environment (because skills and gears in pub varies from set to godly rws) it isn't as competitive.

and if u have not read before, i made a frenzier which was miserable failure. so i speak from experience.
and i don't know of jordan's post (cuz most of his posts were agreeable) but shockers..well they have been exaggerated. A lot.

also i will stick to my point that all possible builds have been trialed. that post u linked with nec forum is the point i am making.
it's a summoner build, which has been tried its nothing new.
and revives are cheap builds that are considered cheap no matter how effective since they do not last. they cannot be considered for source of damage due to nature of the skill.
and as for people not knowing skills and mechanics and random coments by generl b.net...
well if you are dedicated you will know. it's that simple.
your claim that only recently skel mages damages were calculated, where is proof in that and how recent is this?
because i played summoner for pvm couple of years ago and info was there when i looked up.

[jel]

Mystified, is there any point we continue this debate? As I see what you wrote is something already answered, but here goes again:

oh crap..blew what i was writing. crap.

I'm sorry to hear that, ctrl a + ctrl c usually does a lot of good, I use it all the time.


k here is points.
1) it is more viable for general pvp then likes of avenger, or anything unusual like that
Depends on the rules of the duel. In pubs, yes.

2) however its nowhere near as good vs any of staple cookie cutter build. vknez said this and i agree. few match up will be in your favour namley vs sorc, trappers, and aggressive bone necs too where you have good chance.
Vknez said it had no chance against anything, not even a kicker, do you agree with this?

Certainly many of the usual builds have an advantage, as this is more like a weaker BvC that can desynch for the fun of it, if it should be compared to something else, however that doesn't make it weak in any way.

Funny how Vknez said it couldn't defeat anything, yet you list things you believe can be defeated.


3) but overall pvp in non-pub environment (because skills and gears in pub varies from set to godly rws) it isn't as competitive.

and if u have not read before, i made a frenzier which was miserable failure. so i speak from experience.

No you speak from the point of failure, you tried a theory of yours, which you labelled a frenzy barb and it was falsified, however you should acknowledge that your labelling of frenzy barb being only what you tested is a wrong assumption as you can see from various others in this thread, as they've had succes with what they call a frenzy barb.


also i will stick to my point that all possible builds have been trialed. that post u linked with nec forum is the point i am making.
it's a summoner build, which has been tried its nothing new.
Again note it has nothing to do with the summoner build, it's a general discussion, have every possible combination of every possible skill ever been tried? The answer is most likely no. Have any hypothesis ever made ever been tested of falsification in this game? The answer is most probably no. Have most of the general stuff been tested and made a basis for anyone who wants to create a theory of dueling to accomplish what others haven't done before been laid? The answer is yes. We've the tools, but people acts like we've the answers. I could understand if someone had gone and tested what was written in the thread and replied that way back, but that wasn't the case, so there you go.


and revives are cheap builds that are considered cheap no matter how effective since they do not last. they cannot be considered for source of damage due to nature of the skill.
Depends on the rules of the duel, otherwise I agree in the view point of a necromancer, however depending on the revives used and what you've for stun. Mostly however revives are great for being the most optimal anti paladin skill in the game, when you combine it with teleport.


and as for people not knowing skills and mechanics and random coments by generl b.net...
well if you are dedicated you will know. it's that simple.
Yes, but when?

your claim that only recently skel mages damages were calculated, where is proof in that and how recent is this?
because i played summoner for pvm couple of years ago and info was there when i looked up.
Recently is relative, compared to when the game was released it was rather late known by public, and it is in general still, just find a large amount of b.net players and test how many of these can tell you the damage of mages, I guess the percentage is around 1 or lower.

[SeCKSEgai]

Really seems like there's more an issue of semantics here.

I think the majority will agree that against solid competition against skilled competitors, the build will fall short. Desync isn't enough of an advantage when you take into consideration what abilities and skills the competition will be utilizing.

If a skillful player is in a game with opponents of far lesser skill, he will dominate the game, whether he be in a ghost, hdin, windy, frenzybarb, bvc, bvb, sorc, etc. When the difference in general ability is too great, the build choice is a much smaller issue.

[mystified]

i can't speak for vknez, but i can only assume he was exaggerating as i know some builds can be fought with ease. that said kicker with trap back is actually not an auto win for barb. considering her stuns and annoying trap damage with 75% block, she has bit of an advantage.

and when i speak of failure, thats because build do not work.

i have wealth to go through different gears, and while i would not put myself to a person like rtb, i am fairly knowledgable in character i deal with and always research before making them.

with that in mind, you can comment on my failure.

like i said, there is a reason why frenzy barb is not used in pvp even by rich people who can get any gear they like, and why even with skill being around for ages, it has never made to mainstream.

but i agree, and i mentioned before, nothing good will come out from this debate.

fact is, i know i used frenzy and i know it is no good with all gear changes and other crap i have gone through. it was not effective. Fun, however, is another thing...

[jel]

i can't speak for vknez, but i can only assume he was exaggerating

Which is what I've been fighting.


considering her stuns and annoying trap damage with 75% block, she has bit of an advantage.

If you desynch fails you and she gets a mind blast on you you'll of course use whirlwind, then she'll loose no matter what, if she doesn't get a mind blast on you she can't stun you and you can take her down as you like.


and when i speak of failure, thats because build do not work.

Can never be concluded. It can be concluded under the environment of testing you made, given the skills you have, the build did not work well compared to other builds.



i have wealth to go through different gears, and while i would not put myself to a person like rtb, i am fairly knowledgable in character i deal with and always research before making them.
Yes that's the standard way, but you should also be open to that you might have made mistakes, may be wrong, and should take suggestions into consideration.


like i said, there is a reason why frenzy barb is not used in pvp even by rich people who can get any gear they like, and why even with skill being around for ages, it has never made to mainstream.
No because whirlwind is superior, it doesn't mean that it doesn't work and you never know when a high amount desynch can turn the tide of the battle to a larger degree than more damage pr. second could.


but i agree, and i mentioned before, nothing good will come out from this debate.


Great then let's end this, I'll wait for your answer and unless there's something I think is especially important that I'll answer the same or the next day, I won't come back here unless addressed to do so.

[vknez]

a) telesmiters can be hard, but are few and far between, all the rest, well maybe I should ask if you've dueled before?
b) Like? If we're talking BM I'm certain it'll be easy to counter, but try me.
c) Again stuff like this may really make me believe you haven't dueled before, a BvC doesn't need block, and nor does a 1 point frenzy hybrid, if you loose to a werewolf you lack skills, and if you really have a hard time, use DT, as a werewolf can never catch you.


a) almost all smiters I meat have enigma. good ones will use ba to match your range and stack ias to counter your doom
b) no comment
c) i would like to know how do you beet werewolf
-life= werewolf>frenzy
-damage= werewolf>frenzy
-ar = werewolf> frenzy
- block =werewolf 75 %> 0% frenzy
- dr = werewolf> frenzy
double throw will never hit me, also it can match your speed.

[jel]

a) almost all smiters I meat have enigma. good ones will use ba to match your range and stack ias to counter your doom
b) no comment
c) i would like to know how do you beet werewolf
-life= werewolf>frenzy
-damage= werewolf>frenzy
-ar = werewolf> frenzy
- block =werewolf 75 %> 0% frenzy
- dr = werewolf> frenzy
double throw will never hit me, also it can match your speed.

a) clip ww still outranges range 3, the point is that as you clip the target you're in range too short time for them to hit you, while you hit them, and then you're out of range again, can be hard to do though, something I personally have a hard time doing.

c) no werewolf can match the speed of a frenzy barb, even if frenzy runs out you can always teleport away and keep on throwing, anyway if the werewolf doesn't use range 5 weapons, just use whirlwind and if the werewolf does, well no shield makes it an easy target.

You honestly think you can avoid every thing thrown at you eventhough desynch makes it impossible for you to know when something is coming right at you? If you've dueled bowazons with Lfury on switch you know that it often connects eventhough it seems far from you, as throwing is something that for some reason have a quite easy time desynching, just look at you even can legit far cast using throwing.

[TienJe]

this thread hurts my soul

[vknez]

a) clip ww still outranges range 3, the point is that as you clip the target you're in range too short time for them to hit you, while you hit them, and then you're out of range again, can be hard to do though, something I personally have a hard time doing.

c) no werewolf can match the speed of a frenzy barb, even if frenzy runs out you can always teleport away and keep on throwing, anyway if the werewolf doesn't use range 5 weapons, just use whirlwind and if the werewolf does, well no shield makes it an easy target.

You honestly think you can avoid every thing thrown at you eventhough desynch makes it impossible for you to know when something is coming right at you? If you've dueled bowazons with Lfury on switch you know that it often connects eventhough it seems far from you, as throwing is something that for some reason have a quite easy time desynching, just look at you even can legit far cast using throwing.

have you heard for shift fury? shift smite? plz explain how does ww with range 3, outranges opponents range 3 weapon!! thing is you will be probably dead in first fury
yes i can run whole day around any thrower, also light fury dont use ar like DT does

to be in state of fury you must hit something. relying on hiting monsters is stupid.
i would like to see legit farcast, even single one (you can do this on monsters :yes:)

[Jordanbcool]

While runes have dropped down in value considerably not everyone has the most perfect gear imaginable. I'd like to point out that rather obvious reality to everyone in this thread since most of the scenario's everyone has played out has been with the most perfect of godly gear.

Also another good reason why this build shines is the short of "scare" tactic. Charging dsynching hammerdins rely on the same mechanics to get wins. They will charge then switch to hammer and kill you before you know they are even there. If you do see them you likely have a split second to react. With most casters having low life they will freak out if they see a 5k+ life, desynching frenzier tanking all of their precious fireballs. Often times the characters that I duel are so busy frantically trying to run they have little time to attack, switch to walk or use some of the other tactics discussed. Maybe a veteran may not be so easily scared but the majority of the characters make mistakes if they are pressured so much as you should be on them.

Finally there is no limit to FRW. This being said you have the potential to be faster then any caster that relys on FCR. Granted they could always stack FRW or even have an insane 200 FCR but they still are limited. This obviously should be used to your advantage when dueling. This is escpecially true when you have a maxed charged frenzy.

Plus when you do catch them and put them into FHR recovery its pretty frustrating when all they have time to do is die :)

[SeCKSEgai]

this thread hurts my soul

I'm with Tienje on this.

@jordanbcool

Pvp is more end game material. Once you've killed the uber 3 over 90 times (I still have the standards to prove it) and baal even more, the only challenge left is that offered in player versus player combat.

It's easy to spot the weaker guild opponents typically as their weapon or armor often gives them away. Runewords are typically built into certain armor types, and if its not blatently obvious in the first combat it will be be fairly easy to guess once the fight begins.

Pvp may not require the best high end gear, but when you consider that ladder is nearing its end and non-ladder folk have had far more time to aquire their equipment, you expect competitive opponents to have solid gear setups.

You see, when people see their outclassed, they typically do one of two things. Townguard/hunt from town like the druid who keeps casting a bear to nk or a number of any sorcs or bows that stay close to town so they can retreat as soon as someone returns fire (assuming they live through it).

If they don't do this, or even if they do, they typically leave fairly quickly. When they realize their outclassed, most people have the sense to stop wasting time. If you run out in your best gear available and you die without doing much of anything, that's not fun for the person dying. For most of the better pvpers out there, if an opponent goes down without any challenge, that's no fun either.

[Jordanbcool]

Ok I'd like to make a few observations since I've been dueling over the last couple days. Granted my barbarian isn't finished yet, he's lvl 85 ATM so when he's done he'll have more life and do more damage. Here's his gear/stats

20- Axe Mastery
5- Increased Speed
5- Natural Resistance
19- Battle orders
17- Double swing
17- Frenzy
4- Battle command, Berserk, WW, Taunt
9- Prerequisites

Arreats (UM)
Doomz
Beastz
DS enigma
2 ravenfrosts
Cats eye
Triple resist rares (30 FRW, Cold/Light/Fire)
LOH gloves
Dungos
2 x BO weapons on switch

25 FRW scs (w/secondary mods)
Anni
Torch
A couple lifers

4822-life
3k-3500 damage
9313- AR
9703- Defense
265% FRW speed
Maxed hell resists

[Jordanbcool]

PVP builds

Smiters- Generally they are beaten as I've said before with smart wirls. However, I have dueled a few that have been alot harder I.E. shift/smiters that use life tap and flash doomz of their own. The ones that use those are indeed near impossible to beat. I also cannot claim BM when they flash their doomz as I use it myself.

Zealots- IMO easy, since doomz cripples them and WW is uninterpretable. Using angelics helps alot with hitting them with frenzy or WW.

FOH- Switching to T-gods + OrtOrtOrt helm helps out with their light damage considerably. However, its hard to use that tactic unless its 1V1 since I'm now more vulnerable to other characters (wind druids and other elemental classes).

Hammerdins- Leaping them out of their hammer fields is important to remember as they usually camp in that safety neat and let you come close to them. I've had trouble hitting these guys simply because their hammers hurt so much and its hard to attack them with a line of sight attack (i.e. having to chase after them instead of using teleport).

Mages- Near impossible. Coming with a strong hammer and FOH attack make these guys a nightmare. I had to leave the game after fighting a few of these.

Bone necs.- Can be beaten and aren't as bad as others make them out to be. I found that hardest thing about them was if they used a golem as it slows you down considerably. Also, if they use max block the duel becomes much harder.

Amazons- Melee ones that use LS/FC can be hard but are usually crippled with doomz on. The ones I've dueled just complain at how BM I'm being. Guided arrows are easily outrun with the amount of FRW you have on.

Melee druids- So far have been a joke...

BVB/BVC- To date I have yet to beat one. Their WW > Yours for obvious reasons. You both may only hit each other a few times but his WW hurts much more then yous and his defense is higher.

Sorcs- IMO the easiest duel. I can tank most of their straight projectiles and keep up with their teleport. I've only had a problem killing one sorc so far. She had a 200 FCR teleport and max block. She was also smart enough not to run away.

Windys- Can be hard if they have max block. I've only dueled a couple and some have been easy while others have been hard. Leaping in place disperses the minion stack so that should be used accordingly.

Haven't dueled any Assasins at all yet.

I would say the hardest thing about this build is dealing with max block. I still think this build is viable though and want to do more testing.

[Narc]

PVP builds

Smiters- Generally they are beaten as I've said before with smart wirls. However, I have dueled a few that have been alot harder I.E. shift/smiters that use life tap and flash doomz of their own. The ones that use those are indeed near impossible to beat. I also cannot claim BM when they flash their doomz as I use it myself.

Zealots- IMO easy, since doomz cripples them and WW is uninterpretable. Using angelics helps alot with hitting them with frenzy or WW.

FOH- Switching to T-gods + OrtOrtOrt helm helps out with their light damage considerably. However, its hard to use that tactic unless its 1V1 since I'm now more vulnerable to other characters (wind druids and other elemental classes).

Hammerdins- Leaping them out of their hammer fields is important to remember as they usually camp in that safety neat and let you come close to them. I've had trouble hitting these guys simply because their hammers hurt so much and its hard to attack them with a line of sight attack (i.e. having to chase after them instead of using teleport).

Mages- Near impossible. Coming with a strong hammer and FOH attack make these guys a nightmare. I had to leave the game after fighting a few of these.

Bone necs.- Can be beaten and aren't as bad as others make them out to be. I found that hardest thing about them was if they used a golem as it slows you down considerably. Also, if they use max block the duel becomes much harder.

Amazons- Melee ones that use LS/FC can be hard but are usually crippled with doomz on. The ones I've dueled just complain at how BM I'm being. Guided arrows are easily outrun with the amount of FRW you have on.

Melee druids- So far have been a joke...

BVB/BVC- To date I have yet to beat one. Their WW > Yours for obvious reasons. You both may only hit each other a few times but his WW hurts much more then yous and his defense is higher.

Sorcs- IMO the easiest duel. I can tank most of their straight projectiles and keep up with their teleport. I've only had a problem killing one sorc so far. She had a 200 FCR teleport and max block. She was also smart enough not to run away.

Windys- Can be hard if they have max block. I've only dueled a couple and some have been easy while others have been hard. Leaping in place disperses the minion stack so that should be used accordingly.

Haven't dueled any Assasins at all yet.

I would say the hardest thing about this build is dealing with max block. I still think this build is viable though and want to do more testing.

Hmmm. Such eloquent tactics. Doom vs. Amazon, never heard of it. Have you considered getting BO from a singer and getting Enchant from a sorc?

[sweetalmonds]

PVM builds

maulers- these stun you liek hell just clip them with whirls even tho your one point whirlwind has
no %ar bonus its enuff.

zealots- ha sissy they run when the healing witch dies, just use frenzy to catch up its easy.

souls- these are tuff wear tgods and ortortortortort shield youll be ok. use shield mean u use whirl den the
projectile cant hit u.

diablo- leap when he cast ring of fire then u ignore the dmg. ull have trouble hitting because he has some fast blocking.

finger mage(storm caster)- theyre red stuff darin ur mana so its nearly impossible to use frenzy or whirl cuz u got no mana

oblivion knight- watch from IM you die quick if u get in too close. also they dmg is maggical cannot resist hard fight.

corrupt rogues- izi just charge in with doom they cant run away rfom that.

fallen- yeah sucj a joke

blood lord- no chance vs these just s/e and remake untile they dont spawn in your game.

Haven't fought any common monsters in the moor at all yet.

I would say the hardest thing about this build is dealing with a lot of monsters.

fixed .

[Jordanbcool]

So far I've had fun dueling with this build, you could atleast provide constructive criticism.

[mystified]

@ narc & sweetalmonds

No need to be sarcy!! (that's sar-ki, as in sarcastic but with keyboards it doesn't work so well..)

tho damn funny mates :)

@ jordan
i will start from top

PVP builds

Smiters- Generally they are beaten as I've said before with smart wirls. However, I have dueled a few that have been alot harder I.E. shift/smiters that use life tap and flash doomz of their own. The ones that use those are indeed near impossible to beat. I also cannot claim BM when they flash their doomz as I use it myself.


i don't know of any smiter (noobs not included) that use doom ffs.
Maybe these were TV/VT variant who always has 1 pt in HF anyway (unless they think it is enough to use FoH stick..meh) or smart ones who thought these potins are worthy investment. (which is)
And flashing Hf is not considered bm most case, in fact it is skilled (unlike wielding doom which is just considered bm by many but what do i know..?)

Zealots- IMO easy, since doomz cripples them and WW is uninterpretable. Using angelics helps alot with hitting them with frenzy or WW.

yeah, i said dooms already.
that said, they hit hard, uninterruptible and faster than frenzy. WW will help as most of these builds will be fortitude. If you went into zeal vs zeal, leave now.
otherwise, WW do make it easier somewhat

FOH- Switching to T-gods + OrtOrtOrt helm helps out with their light damage considerably. However, its hard to use that tactic unless its 1V1 since I'm now more vulnerable to other characters (wind druids and other elemental classes).

Pure FoH sucks. plain and simple. when met with likes of mage (as u said) or TV/VT you find yourself in a situation where you go crap
good way would be stacking with res charms (11 l res was good last time i checked) but that needs some inventory managing

Hammerdins- Leaping them out of their hammer fields is important to remember as they usually camp in that safety neat and let you come close to them. I've had trouble hitting these guys simply because their hammers hurt so much and its hard to attack them with a line of sight attack (i.e. having to chase after them instead of using teleport).

you chase = you die.
Good ones will desynch + tele stomp you easily. your best bet is again WW as frenzy won't work here.

Mages- Near impossible. Coming with a strong hammer and FOH attack make these guys a nightmare. I had to leave the game after fighting a few of these.

heck, stacking is easier part. consider them as hammerdin (still hard). Thank god they have slightly lower def

Bone necs.- Can be beaten and aren't as bad as others make them out to be. I found that hardest thing about them was if they used a golem as it slows you down considerably. Also, if they use max block the duel becomes much harder.

you haven't met good one yet.
mb + 125 fcr + golem is normal. heck, some go for oak too if they can
desynch stopping bone wall spammage and those really really gaily defensive play (no offense to homosexuals that reside here. I love *** people!...in a different way) make it your hardiest game play. and teeth spam is just wrong.
I know it is hard to get hit if you do this. ofc, you will quickly find yourself people not duelling you....and friends leaving you when u call them for a duel. :coffee:

Amazons- Melee ones that use LS/FC can be hard but are usually crippled with doomz on. The ones I've dueled just complain at how BM I'm being. Guided arrows are easily outrun with the amount of FRW you have on.

doomz again. They are right on complaining cuz slow = bm, especially ias relying zons. bad bad you.
also guide is not about outrunning. cuz when they tail you and when they block + e/d/a and arrows connect, that's the game. sorta like zon vs zon. gotta get close kinda thing?
also why do they use guide only? whatever happened to multi spam? this used to be tactic back in the days and not anymore?
they have massive ar, so their multi wil hit u

Melee druids- So far have been a joke...
meh, fury (i assume fury here) is one of more expensive build to make and make it work than most melee, as it is also interruptible like frenzy, and dru has bad frh and def.
that said, they outrange you (botd or etombs) so I don't see how they lost. unless they used ebotdz and went block. in which case you should still lose.
but yeah, hit they oak first then dru. still, they outdamage you tho..

BVB/BVC- To date I have yet to beat one. Their WW > Yours for obvious reasons. You both may only hit each other a few times but his WW hurts much more then yous and his defense is higher.

no comment

Sorcs- IMO the easiest duel. I can tank most of their straight projectiles and keep up with their teleport. I've only had a problem killing one sorc so far. She had a 200 FCR teleport and max block. She was also smart enough not to run away.

she was also smart enough not to run away? what meaning this??
no comment cuz I know this is easiest by far.
some (i.e. block es builds, doomz blizzers <<so wrong in many ways..it hurt) will still give u trouble. especially doom wielding blizzers who normally do less damge but more -res, and slow

Windys- Can be hard if they have max block. I've only dueled a couple and some have been easy while others have been hard. Leaping in place disperses the minion stack so that should be used accordingly.

agains the windy should know how to play defensive. nado spammage is nice.

Haven't dueled any Assasins at all yet.

I would say the hardest thing about this build is dealing with max block. I still think this build is viable though and want to do more testing.

well we all have our favourtite cup of tea.
come back after and let us know. :wave:
and see if you come across any of examples i mentioned

[SeCKSEgai]

Lol @sweetalmonds

As far as smiters and lifetap, I've fought a number of solid ones on my ghost that didn't require a single form of lifetap to do their work. It's usually the lifetappers that aren't accustomed to tactics used by those who can't fall back on a lifetap proc or a pot to save them.

As whirling goes, smart whirls is a necessity, but again, it comes down to your opponent. Grief smite hurts, and I rarely see a doom wielding smiter as they rarely last long.

Of course, the reason I don't see Doom so much is the slow factor being bm, namely for amazons, as you basically nullify their effectiveness. And Grief Smite really hurts.

I really want to know where you've been dueling if you haven't fought a single assassin but fought some melee druids.

As for bone necros being beaten, sure they can, all builds can technically speaking. Same could be said about every combination really. But there's a huge difference between an "average" bone necro, and a very skilled one. I have yet to build one myself, but it doesn't take too long to find out if your opponent is one or the other.

[jel]

This thread have really never had much purpose at all, except that vknez apparently needed other to argument for him, as he wasn't able to. As so I don't really consider this thread of much worth, and it's rather sad that Jordanbcool have used time to make some valueable answer, and he get meet with people who press down opinions on him of what is gm/bm, which have no place in this debate, anyway something I think should be pointed out.


and dru has bad frh and def.


Werewolfs, which you've been commenting on the entire time in the quote I've taken a part out of, has the best fhr in the game.

@Narc
You aren't going to comment on my answer to your comment? I mean I'd really like to know what you were talking about back there. I do expect it to be relevant to the thread as you took your time to write it, but I can't seem to make any sense out of it, and neither could others.

@Narc & Mystified. Doomz are fine to use, he may use whatever he wants, if it works then it works, you may claim it's bad mannered, but if you're looking for some gm frenzy build that will own in gm duels against competive opponents, then I'm not surprised you don't think frenzy is worth anything, because it isn't in such an environment, if you'd read my posts you'd see that I all the time assumed that everything goes, and under such circumstances, frenzy is poor gold.

@sweetalmonds, what happened to you? You always used to write such intelligent stuff on these boards, but lately your level have sunk deep, your contributions have been low and you start weird topics that's obvious answers, have you given your diabloiii.net forum user to someone else or something?

[SeCKSEgai]

After seeing what posted while I was afk and still mid post....

Any build is viable in one form or another, and if you enjoy it, awesome, as that's what's most important. But from what you describe, I have yet to see any reason to want to make a frenzy barb as there is no outstanding benefit to having one as opposed to a bvc/bvb for example. I think that's really the point people have been trying to make. If it was an undiscovered pvp jewel, in general gm pvp you wouldn't be limited to resorting to ww so often or a flash chill from doom ( I think the majority carry their bo sticks/cta/shield on switch). Frenzy on its own would prove to be immensely useful in a number of situations, which I think you've seen has been shown, has yet to be the case.

It's not that you can't get kills, but what's to justify the use of fury when one can ww as their primary - I think that's really what it comes down to.

[jel]

I have yet to see any reason to want to make a frenzy barb as there is no outstanding benefit to having one as opposed to a bvc

I agree, but it's like the argument of no one should ever build a hld zealot, as a smiter would always be superior, still a zealot can do well.


I think that's really the point people have been trying to make.

Then people should read the link in the first post, at the time Vknez posts this is the same time as I argument against him claiming that a frenzy barb will loose to every standard build there is, no matter if it's a kicker a zealot or whatever, it does not only show his lack of imagination, it shows that he's an agenda. What this thread is about according to the link in the original post at the time of it was written compared to when the post in the linked thread was made, it's clear that on one side Vknez says every build can destroy a frenzier with ease, where I on the other says that's not the case. I even gave ideas of how to duel with a frenzier to be effective, yet everyone seems to have assumed some standard rules that was never suggested in the linked thread or in this thread. I actually got a deja-vu there, maybe I've already written this in this thread, I don't remember.


If it was an undiscovered pvp jewel
So only Vknez, when making the title of the thread, and Narc apparently have talked about some undiscovered pvp jewel, I've been clear in my case from the start, I've never claimed frenzy to be some sort of undiscovered pvp jewel, I've defended frenzy for actually be able to take down an opponent in pvp, which Vknez ment wasn't possible.

[Jordanbcool]

The reason I've been trying out and testing this build so much is so I can see if it is indeed viable. If it turns out to be so, I'd like to start making a guide and would hope to get it stickied. If not then I'll realize my error and abandon the guide. I've said it before but I'm very tired of having only one PVP guide for barbarians. A BVC WW guide. I love barbarians, and I think that if you sit down and try it out you could make other viable PVP barbarian builds. Namely a frenzier and possibly even a tele/zerker, though I've never been one to like berserk that much as it doesn't leach and leaves your defense at 0....

[jel]

There's a telezerker guide, people just won't accept it to be a possible way, because clearly ww tops it, again it's the whole argument of why make the hld zealot, the pure bowazon, the melee druid classes, the kicksin, and the poison necromancer, though the poison necromancer have one advantage that the bone one hasn't, that he's much more viable against ES sorcs, but that in general is the only case, and as sorcs can be sorbed+stacked+max resisted down to deal 0 damage, while they don't have infinite mana pots, it's not a very valid argument.

[Jordanbcool]

I'd be fully down for sticking the zerker guide posted in this thread. Same for the trang poisonmancer and some of the other more unpopular guides. This game is very late in its stages and frankly I'm surprised so many people have been so vocal in their complete opposition to anything new.

Palidans use charge to desynch all the time. Why can't barbarians do the same with frenzy?

[wizAdept]

I'd be fully down for sticking the zerker guide posted in this thread. Same for the trang poisonmancer and some of the other more unpopular guides. This game is very late in its stages and frankly I'm surprised so many people have been so vocal in their complete opposition to anything new.

Palidans use charge to desynch all the time. Why can't barbarians do the same with frenzy?

People are not in opposition to anything new. Because this is not new. Frenzy builds have been tried time and time again. Guess players have to learn for themselves what does and doesn't work in pvp, no matter how late in the stages of d2 it is, and no matter how many players tell them that the build sucks.

Ultimately thought it depends on the crowd you duel with, in pubs anything is possible, knock yourself out and have fun with it if it floats your boat.

[TienJe]

People are not in opposition to anything new. Because this is not new. Frenzy builds have been tried time and time again. Guess players have to learn for themselves what does and doesn't work in pvp, no matter how late in the stages of d2 it is, and no matter how many players tell them that the build sucks.

Ultimately thought it depends on the crowd you duel with, in pubs anything is possible, knock yourself out and have fun with it if it floats your boat.

no you shut up

i've never seen frenzy before in my life

[SeCKSEgai]

If you put it in perspective, any build can "pvp" as that simply means players compete against each other. So in that interpretation any build is "viable". As for competitive, that's a different story...

As far as stating that frenzy is an undiscovered jewel, I would say that is an overstatement as that claims that frenzy has clear advantages compared to other options. That's not to say it can't do the job, but does it offer anything special of its own?

Frenzy requires a successful hit to activate - in general pvp that's part of the challenge in the first place. In that respect, it's in effect a "charge up skill", only unlike the assassin MA tree, the bonus is instant. Once active, the duration is for a mere 6 seconds unless additional hits occur, by that point you or your opponent should be dead.

In pvm, you often have a number of targets to choose from, so the effects are sustainable. In pvp however, landing the hit in the first place is often the main challenge. This is where I find it's use limited. You have to outdamage your opponent when trading blows, and when you consider the typical melee opponents one will face, frenzy is behind.

WW can swing several times within the course of a single second, allowing movement and the ability to block if utilizing a shield.

Smite is uninterruptible and will automatically hit a target in range.

Concentrate boosts defense while boosting both ar and damage and is uninterruptible.

Beserk converts to magic damage, thus increasing damage by bypassing damage resistance at the cost of dropping all defense, which can be utilized when defense is not an issue.

Dtalon and Zeal both offer multiple attacks within a minimal time frame.

But to say that it frenzy can't kill anything is a grave exaggeration. The basic goal in pvp in d2 is to kill your opponent before he/she kills you. Ultimately it's who lasts longer. You can bring your opponent down to 1 life, but if you can't finish the job and they still kill you, it's all for naught.

A barb will typically have better life than other classes as the rest gain 2-3 hp per point in vit versus the barbarian's 4. Your opponent may hit harder, but if do enough to eliminate their health bar first you win. Take away the life advantage of the class and there's nothing spectacular frenzy offers in its own right that another skill can't replace. Being able to move fast is wonderful, but increased speed can be obtained though frw charms and increased speed without requiring a blow to land.

Lastly @ Jel, other builds you mention typically have a strength and a playstyle players enjoy.

A pure bowazon hitting the highest breakpoints may not take much damage, but she can put out a lot in a short amount of time, the challenge against them is making it through their barrage to unleash your own damage.

Melee druids are few and far between, as I think I see 5 windys for every one melee druid if not more. Of course, a windy is most effective in melee range because of the nature of tornado. The strength of a windy comes in the oak, the hurricane, the minion stack, the cyclone armor, and the powerful tornado making them quite competitive.

Poison necros are viable in that they have other skills to supplement their poison as well. They can do lots of damage in a single nova if they can manage to pull one off in proximity without taking too much damage while casting it. A bone is more rounded but the gameplay is quite a bit different as a bone doesn't need to be in close range to deal damage.

A kicker can attack quickly, but getting into range of the target is the challenge. Once that's established, the majority of attacks will have advantages over you, whether it be whirlwind and the ability to move while attacking or smite which unlike dtalon isn't dependent on AR.

Telezerk is not much different than your ww bvc, except you're using zerk instead of ww for damage. Zerk has its own strengths/weaknesses just like ww. WW is simply more versatile.

[mystified]

@jel// well pointed, fury dru has best fhr in game, my bad getting mixed up with windy.
still, fury dru is one of worst melee form (and best imo :D) since it is interruptible, making it sub standard atatck compared to others. e.g. zealot won't need to worry about fhr and can focus on dmg where as fury druid don't have much choice here, limiting gears and set up choice somewhat.
..another reason why wolves are not see so many times in pubs..

PS: sorry when I discuss pvp build i automatically assume gm situation. Since if one goes bm, I can do pretty good with any build, whether it be potion chugging, revive summoning via charges, over absorbing, +max res stacking (to 90+) etc.
I guess you don't agree on this

no you shut up

i've never seen frenzy before in my life

that's because yous are noobs :P
all pros have pvp frenzy. you just don't see them cuz they desynch like pro :jig:

[jel]

That's not to say it can't do the job, but does it offer anything special of its own?
Fastest speed boost possible. Which highen the chance of desynch quite a lot.


In that respect, it's in effect a "charge up skill", only unlike the assassin MA tree, the bonus is instant.
Actually not, frenzy requires as many swings to charge up as the level of the skill according to Stephan.


Once active, the duration is for a mere 6 seconds unless additional hits occur, by that point you or your opponent should be dead.
Frenzy is used as a mean of getting a first strike in without the opponent being aware of where you're, don't expect it to last the entire duel, and against most opponents don't expect to be able to charge up on the target, you'll most likely have to teleport away at some point depending on what attack you use to recharge frenzy for a new attept at trying to get an unexpected hit series in.



WW can swing several times within the course of a single second, allowing movement and the ability to block if utilizing a shield.
WW is "only" 5/4th times as fast as frenzy it's the fact it's a moving, uninteruptable attack, so it allows clips, dod, and away for more effectiveness.


Smite is uninterruptible and will automatically hit a target in range.

Only if the target stays in range for the period of the smite, that's why clipping can be so effective, especially when considering that range 3 is like range 4 without the corners. Which means you'll have a safe stop to try to move towards.


Concentrate boosts defense while boosting both ar and damage and is uninterruptible.

Maybe, but it's way too slow, like Berzerk, it's not that hard for a moving target to get out of range before the swing goes in the hit check.


Beserk converts to magic damage, thus increasing damage by bypassing damage resistance at the cost of dropping all defense, which can be utilized when defense is not an issue.
Yes if you can get a Berzerk in, then it's very powerful, but it's just unlikely to happen.


Dtalon and Zeal both offer multiple attacks within a minimal time frame.


The same goes for frenzy, minimal is relative, Zeal is 5/4th time as fast, Dtalon should be averaged depending on the skill level, but considering the first strike is 7-8 frames long, it makes it like a slow attack that should be multiplied by 5 and have a small addition in chance to hit (making 5 attempts in stead of 1).


But to say that it frenzy can't kill anything is a grave exaggeration.

I agree, I think Vknez understands this as well now.


Being able to move fast is wonderful, but increased speed can be obtained though frw charms and increased speed without requiring a blow to land.
Believe me, the difference of the speed of a fully charged frenzy and that of item giving faster run / walk is magnificient, it's a huge difference and with frenzy you actually limit the opponents available teleport spots on your screen quite a lot. Remember if your opponent is aggresive, they'll as the tele most likely land on your screen, as you're running in a random pattern towards them, the next thing is they'll shoot and finally they'll realise you're up at them try to teleport away again, this is 3 actions, the first may be a bit outside the screen, but with the speed of frenzy those 3 actions have to be around 8-9 frames before you can get away with it, and that's at the edge of the screen of the frenzy barb, assuming the attack doesn't stun the frenzier (or make him go into fhr animation whatever you prefer it to be called).


Lastly @ Jel, other builds you mention typically have a strength and a playstyle players enjoy.
The same applies for Frenzy.


A pure bowazon hitting the highest breakpoints may not take much damage, but she can put out a lot in a short amount of time, the challenge against them is making it through their barrage to unleash your own damage.
Still why not investing a point in fury and have a backup with a shield? It gives much more flexibility.


Melee druids are few and far between, as I think I see 5 windys for every one melee druid if not more. Of course, a windy is most effective in melee range because of the nature of tornado. The strength of a windy comes in the oak, the hurricane, the minion stack, the cyclone armor, and the powerful tornado making them quite competitive.
Yes minion stacking is one of the best means in this game, especially against paladins and necromancers.


necros are viable in that they have other skills to supplement their poison as well. They can do lots of damage in a single nova if they can manage to pull one off in proximity without taking too much damage while casting it. A bone is more rounded but the gameplay is quite a bit different as a bone doesn't need to be in close range to deal damage.
antidote potion and +max resist, with a bit of stacking from other sources and that nova isn't worth much.


A kicker can attack quickly, but getting into range of the target is the challenge. Once that's established, the majority of attacks will have advantages over you, whether it be whirlwind and the ability to move while attacking or smite which unlike dtalon isn't dependent on AR.

A ww can attack even quicker and won't have a first strike that may ruin the whole stun lock. And yes I agree, kickers are mage hunters, they don't work in melee.


Telezerk is not much different than your ww bvc, except you're using zerk instead of ww for damage. Zerk has its own strengths/weaknesses just like ww. WW is simply more versatile.
Berzerk can be interupted, which is very dangerous, it's not moving so you'll be hit in the face on face battle and finally it's just to slow to be effective enough compared to ww, whichi is the same argument used against frenzy pretty much just change the variables a bit.

So I agree, but I don't see my point have been changed?


PS: sorry when I discuss pvp build i automatically assume gm situation. Since if one goes bm, I can do pretty good with any build, whether it be potion chugging, revive summoning via charges, over absorbing, +max res stacking (to 90+) etc.
I guess you don't agree on this
When making the assumption you should look at the first thread where Shocker shows what environment he's battling in, it's that of which Vknez is answering in relative too, when he answers in the thread, or so should be assumed by me at least.

Oh and I don't chig poitions, unless it's thawing / antidote, which I however don't chug mid duel, otherwise I'll usually go very bm when dueling people I don't know :).

[vknez]

lol on antidote poting. you are also juving when needed?

you cant win vs any melee build. thats the fact
i wrote in original topic that you should focus on casters

i propose meeting in d2pk as none have to invest anything to duel with perfect gear of choice.

i will add char who will also nail frenzy: assa bear

also you will be dead in 2 zerk swings. thats the fact

also from other topic:

kicker will kick *** of frenzier cause she will have traps as back up damage + stun lock himu. will be protected with 50 % dr and 60 %+ weapon block/75 % shield block.

jordanbcool setup:
you have +11 to @ skills, +2 combat
around 200 str
around 780 ed (mastery,frenzy, fanatizam)

frenzy damage calculation (pvp):

doom - minimum 210, maximum 621, chance for double damage 37 %
so average dmg --> 416. including deadly chance --> 570
if opponent have 50 % dr --> 285
calculation is made with 385 ed doom

beast - minimum 166, maximum 493, chance for double damage 22 %
so average damage --> 330, including critical --> 402
if opponent have 50 % dr --> 201
calculation is made with 285 ed beast

so damage is nothing impressive.
for instance if you have 75 % stacked fire res, my tal sorc deal around 800 damage, and winder do 1100+ damage

[TienJe]

a meeting of the sexy type?

[LLD]

Frenzy will not work
I have spoken

[SeCKSEgai]

It can work against a melee build - if their untwinked and have no clue on what is what in pvp ;)

The antidote packing, against a poison necro that seems pretty bm, being that they should have a hard enough time hitting you with the nova without dying in the first place. That's like chilling a bowazon that relies on ias to do what she's built to do.
The majority of builds have weaknesses that can be exploited in bm play, and worst case scenario rejuv short of a one shot stacked auradin. But bm again isn't applicable in these situations as this is over gm dueling.

The problem I see with frenzy is you have to land a hit first for it to become active. Sure it gets a huge boost, but if you're landing easy first hits then the competition was either not ready or fighting someone else. If you're running off to find a monster to attack to activate frenzy, it doesn't seem practical in the long run either. But when compared to other melee attacks, its definitely faster aside from ww.

As for a bowazon not putting the point in fury - a pure bow is pretty much dead if the attacker makes it into melee range, and since you wouldn't be synergized you're not getting much damage for all the skillpoints (prereq) required to activate fury. You're not adding versatility if it has no practical application.

I really want to fight a frenzy barb with my ghost now =)

[jel]

lol on antidote poting. you are also juving when needed?


I could ask you to read what you replied too, as it clearly states an answer to your question, it's like I just wrote the statement A, and then you ask about whether or not I'd wrote the statement A, but in stead of redirection you to my previous post, I've decided to try to actually give you some insight in what gm / bm actually is all about.

The whole purpose of GM play is dueling for the challenge, that's what a gm-player finds fun and therefore for a gm-player pretty much every game is fun as the gm-players by themselves make sure the game is balanced through restriction, whereby preserving the challenge.
In this view there does not exist any non-viable build for a gm-player as every build should be restricted to match the opponent they meet for the duel to be challenging on both parts. The characteristics of a GM-players is style, not wanting to use the every day cookie cutter class, and want to have a great display on the screen of various effects, though still expects a duel that's a challenge, and what these often lacks are "out of the box thinking", as taking advantage of not often used skills from other classes will often be seen as BM.
An example of this is not using absorb / +max resists, etc. against sorcs as that makes it go from a challenge to nearly impossible for the sorc to win, whereby the fun dissapears as it's now no challenge for no parts, it's a clear win for one and a clear loss for the other.

The whole purpose of BM play is dueling to win, that's what a bm-player finds fun and therefore a bm-player doesn't like every game, as it's not the player that makes the game fun, but the game that must be fun before the player wants to play it. The bm-player takes advantages of imblances in the games mechanics, which includes security. Therefore not every build is viable in BM play, many builds have such major weaknesses due to the imbalances Blizzard have made, that these won't stand a chance against many others. The characteristics of a BM-players is "out of the box"-thinking, trying to take advantage of every imbalance they can find, using the weaknesses of the opponent to the full extend, etc., and what these players often lacks is style, as style doesn't win duels.

Now most people are a combination of a BM/GM-player, many won't allow too many restrictions, as many would trash someone 10-0 if their char isn't up for the match, but still they'll restrict themselves, so specific chars still stand a chance. An example of a very BM player on these boards is PerfectHatred IIRC, playing to win, and willingly to use most advantages he can get to win, using revujs, etc., but still not complete BM, as he most likely doesn't exploit the weaknesses in the games security, or to say it's very likely he doesn't hack.

I guess you can say the BM player is the player who sees the game like a world of opportunity, seeing it as it is, and tries to take advantage of it, like "the american dream" in some extend.
On the other hand the GM player sees a game as a chance to create your own fun, by restricting classes to balance duels so everyone stands a chance and everyone will have fun without anyone have to know each detail about game mechanics, etc.

As an example of this, a wind druid have a major advantage when minion stacking against necromancers and paladins, as these can only hit one target at a time with their own standard attacks, still not many wind druids would limit themselves by not minion stacking for a higher challenge in these fights.

On the other hand, not allowed to use revives against a paladin, or chilling down a zon so she can't desynch or shoot very fast, is considered BM'ed by most, as these two types of classes looses much of their chance to actually win.

I myself is like the rest of you a combination, however I'd say dividing in percentage, I do mostly BM play, and less GM play when I duel people I don't know or don't care about, unless I've accepted the restrictions before hand. I still restrict myself to not use potions in battle in softcore, only before the battle, which I however do in hardcore, and in all circumstances I do not hack. So when playing BM, only one part is going to have fun, the one who wins.

When I duel people I know and care about, or have accepted some restrictions that can be uphold, suggested by others, I'll play GM, as I play for the challenge, as in that way everyone is having fun, no matter if you loose or win.

This means if I'm going to accept some set of rules that restricts my play more than I'd normally allow, you won't see me playing for the win, but more for the challenge, as I'd feel limited, and therefore not really care about winning or loosing.

[SeCKSEgai]

The whole purpose of BM play is dueling to win, that's what a bm-player finds fun and therefore a bm-player doesn't like every game, as it's not the player that makes the game fun, but the game that must be fun before the player wants to play it.

So, if BM is dueling to win, are you saying GM play is dueling to lose?

Or were you trying to say that bm players will do everything in their power to win regardless of fairness and is often willing to use exploits because it's not how they got the win that counts, but that they won.

Because that's really what sets apart gm/bm in the d2 world. For example, there's no fight (and no respect for other players in the game) when someone decides to stack auras (exploiting a bug) and run around and killing everyone in range without them ever having a chance to even attack (unless they manage to spam attacks that land just outside of range).

PK is already BM as you're already attacking unsuspecting players often unprepared so the use of juvs, lifetap etc is moot. If you wanted a fair fight you wouldn't be trying to pk.

GM exists so that there's a reason to fight at all. For example, if I need to stun an hdin to stop his hammerspam so I can ww and hit him with venom and ow to wear him down, if he rejuvs he'll be able to maintain himself during the fight until his potions run out since I would lack the damage for a one shot instant kill, whereas if I stay too close for too long 2 hammers will finish me off. If someone's simply going to rejuv until they run out and then run to town before dying, there really was no reason to fight in the first place.

If you're using rejuvs because you're taking on multiple characters at the same time and constantly outnumbered, that makes sense to me, but thats not the general nature of "dueling".

[jel]

So, if BM is dueling to win, are you saying GM play is dueling to lose?

No to have fun. The pure BM players would only think it's fun to win, the pure GM player would only think it's fun to have a challenging duel, not caring about winning or loosing, everyone is most likely a combination, someone cares more about winning than others, some cares more about the challenge of the duel than others.


Or were you trying to say that bm players will do everything in their power to win regardless of fairness and is often willing to use exploits because it's not how they got the win that counts, but that they won.
Exactly, BM players tries to use imbalance, as no game is perfectly balanced, the GM player tries to balance the game even further.


PK is already BM as you're already attacking unsuspecting players often unprepared so the use of juvs, lifetap etc is moot. If you wanted a fair fight you wouldn't be trying to pk.
PK is most likely a combination that always contain the BM element, use low level chars and make the targets believe they've a chance higher than they do (yet still challenging for both parts), and you've a rather GM pk-situation, though of course with a lot of BM in it, as the targets will care if they loose or not, eventhough the pk'er don't. But yes I agree, GM and PK seldom goes well together.


GM exists so that there's a reason to fight at all. For example, if I need to stun an hdin to stop his hammerspam so I can ww and hit him with venom and ow to wear him down, if he rejuvs he'll be able to maintain himself during the fight until his potions run out since I would lack the damage for a one shot instant kill, whereas if I stay too close for too long 2 hammers will finish me off. If someone's simply going to rejuv until they run out and then run to town before dying, there really was no reason to fight in the first place.
That's how it's on hardcore, where OHKO's what dominates the battle field, as no one is interested loosing their char, but apparently lack excitement of the game otherwise.

Yes stunning make the duel against the paladin something where boths side have a chance, but if you stun him so hard that'll never be able to retaliate (filling out enough frames and keeping it that way) the paladin wouldn't stand a chance, if you on the same time made it impossible for make proper use of attacks that isn't effected by stunning, whereby being BM. So the way you descripe your play I'd call GM.


If you're using rejuvs because you're taking on multiple characters at the same time and constantly outnumbered, that makes sense to me, but thats not the general nature of "dueling".

I never use rejuvs in softcore dueling or pk'ing, unless I have one on me, being in town already and I for some reason don't bother go to Akara, which never have happened before, though that's a restriction I've and I expects others to follow as well, otherwise every type of long damage types would loose much of its effect. However I cannot force anyone to follow such a restriction and if they do use revs I'll have to try to focus on taking down my opponent fast, and not just stun them down for every frame there is, holding them in a prison, iron maidining them, and take my time dealing damage to them, as that'd not only take a very long time, it'd also be likely someone would jump in and interfer.

Edit: Just to make this part clear: It does not make you BM if you play to win, but if you play to win, and that's your only or at least most of the enjoyment, then it's very likely you'll evolve towards a BM playstyle, as that's what suits you. Likewise it's not GM if you restrict yourself, but if you restrict yourself, it's likely that the duel will become GM, again depending on the amount of enjoyment you get. That's why a wind druid that 10-0's a sorc still calls himself GM, eventhough the sorc never had a chance, as the Druid is restricting himself, eventhough it's actually BM not giving the sorc a chance, as there's no challenge in such a duel.

However if the sorc was very skilled, like LLD apparently, it'd be sorc who'd have to restrict herself, to make the duel of a challenge, so it's nothing absolute it's very relative to the opposition, yet as game mechanics are absolute it's at least possible to clearly distinct limits between GM/BM play.

[Uncle_Mike]

And how exactly is the above related to frenzy?

Too much OT here

:closed: