Avenger: Doom vs Crescent Moon

[BigKevSexyMan]

Ok, I'm going to be making an avenger paladin that uses conviction(as if there's anything else an avenger should use)

Which runeword should I be aiming for?

Crescent Moon - Shael + Um + Tir - 3 Socket Axes/Swords/Polearms

10% Chance To Cast Level 17 Chain Lightning On Striking - not so useful
7% Chance To Cast Level 13 Static Field On Striking - I imagine very useful
+20% Increased Attack Speed - ok
+180-220% Enhanced Damage (varies) - ok
Ignore Target's Defense - pointless with conviction
-35% To Enemy Lightning Resistance - good
25% Chance of Open Wounds - good, I think
+9-11 Magic Absorb (varies) - great
+2 To Mana After Each Kill - useless
Level 18 Summon Spirit Wolf (30 Charges) - useless


Doom - Hel + Ohm + Um + Lo + Cham - 5 Socket Axes/Polearms/Hammers

5% Chance To Cast Level 18 Volcano On Striking - not so useful
Level 12 Holy Freeze Aura When Equipped - great
+2 To All Skills - great
+45% Increased Attack Speed - better than moon
+330-370% Enhanced Damage (varies) - better than moon
-(40-60)% To Enemy Cold Resistance (varies) - great
20% Deadly Strike - good
25% Chance of Open Wounds - good
Prevent Monster Heal - good
Freezes Target +3 - dunno
Requirements -20% - good


I figure that I should go with a Berserker Axe for Doom, and a Mythical Sword for Crescent Moon.

So what do you guys think? From the looks of it, Doom sounds better, but I'm not sure. Although it is a lot more expensive.

[Kossuths Will]

Ok, I'm going to be making an avenger paladin that uses conviction(as if there's anything else an avenger should use)

Which runeword should I be aiming for?

Crescent Moon - Shael + Um + Tir - 3 Socket Axes/Swords/Polearms

10% Chance To Cast Level 17 Chain Lightning On Striking - not so useful
7% Chance To Cast Level 13 Static Field On Striking - I imagine very useful
+20% Increased Attack Speed - ok
+180-220% Enhanced Damage (varies) - ok
Ignore Target's Defense - pointless with conviction
-35% To Enemy Lightning Resistance - good
25% Chance of Open Wounds - good, I think
+9-11 Magic Absorb (varies) - great
+2 To Mana After Each Kill - useless
Level 18 Summon Spirit Wolf (30 Charges) - useless


Doom - Hel + Ohm + Um + Lo + Cham - 5 Socket Axes/Polearms/Hammers

5% Chance To Cast Level 18 Volcano On Striking - not so useful
Level 12 Holy Freeze Aura When Equipped - great
+2 To All Skills - great
+45% Increased Attack Speed - better than moon
+330-370% Enhanced Damage (varies) - better than moon
-(40-60)% To Enemy Cold Resistance (varies) - great
20% Deadly Strike - good
25% Chance of Open Wounds - good
Prevent Monster Heal - good
Freezes Target +3 - dunno
Requirements -20% - good


I figure that I should go with a Berserker Axe for Doom, and a Mythical Sword for Crescent Moon.

So what do you guys think? From the looks of it, Doom sounds better, but I'm not sure. Although it is a lot more expensive.

well i can tell you from experience that a crescent moon isnt very good. the problem is that no matter what the weapon, crescent moon doesnt give you very much damage. and since vengeance's ele dmg is based on the dmg of the weapon, that translates to a lot of whacks before you take something down. to be fair, my experience has been mostly in 6-8 player games in act 4 hell, so if you wont be in games with a good amount of players, it might be fine. also to be fair, i used a cryp sword (Went for IAS), and a myth sword might be a better choice. i also maxed res lightning to maximize vengeances light damage which i figured would work well combined with cresc moon.

doom decreases enemy res much more, so maxing cold res will do more as well as the fact that it adds more cold dmg from holy freeze aura. the nice thing about vengeance is it doesnt play to the typical elemental 'rules' if you will, where light has the highest max dmg, cold lowest, and fire somewhere in the middle. all ele dmg is based on a % of the phys damage of the weapon.

my suggestion? doom IF you can afford it. but if its gonna cost you to the point of where you cant get any other good equip for your pally, a good alternative would be any weapon that has some IAS and good damage, because avengers dont kill as quick as some other pallys so armor and shield are gonna be really important. another nice thing about doom is since with vengeance you are beating on one target until its dead, slowing down baddies is gonna be critical. i'm not big on open wounds, but remember with vengeance at a high level, you are going to need all the mana you can get, so the +2 mana after each kill isnt quite useless. also, doom makes your merc choice easier, since a holy freeze merc wont be in consideration.

[Bjam]

If it's between Crescent Moon and Doom, then Doom by a mile.

If cost is no object then I prefer Breath of the Dying in an Eth Zerker or War Spike myself. Then give a Might merc a Doom weapon and you have the best of everything.

[LordC]

The -XX% Resistances on those weapons may look nice, but keep in mind that you're already going to be reducing resistances enormously with your conviction aura. The -XX% will substantially increase damage only in the case that you're breaking more than one immunity with the conviction, and need the extra help to push a choice resistance down from ~85% to ~25-50%. Even in this case, you have other damage sources in the forms of physical and element #3. So while the -XX% resist is quite nice, it isn't the most valuable feature of a vengeance weapon.

What you really want is maximum physical damage output. This will increase all 4 of your damage elements, breaking open non-immunes instantly and causing even double immunes a great deal of pain. An eth BotD, although not nearly as cool as Doom, is much more effective at this. And it's probably about the same price too.

[BigKevSexyMan]

Ok, here's the math on doom vs ethBotD

20 resist fire, ice, lightning
20 vengeance
20 conviction giving -125 resist

gives:
+384% fire
+384% ice
+384% lightning

best case:
doom
+370% phys dmg
+ 2 skills giving +396% all elements & -135 resist
-60 cold resist

eth BotD
+400 phys dmg +30% from str +50 from ethereal



Monster Resist = 75% for all elements
Weapon Berserker Axe: 47.5 avg


for doom:
223 physical
1106 fire * -60% resist = 1769
1106 ice * -100% resist = 2212
1106 lightning * -60% reisist = 1769
Total = 5973

for eBotD:
275 physical
1331 fire * -50 resist = 1996
1331 ice * -50 resist = 1996
1331 lightning * -50 resist = 1996
Total = 6263

Pretty similar

[Buran]

Crescent Moon is not in the same league -in cost and potential to kill- that Doom. Crescent Moon is is a good support weapon to a Fanatic Zeal or to a Conviction Zeal based in Voice Of Reason/Rift as firts weapon. This is because Crescent Moon can do decent damage to leech life if the character has not a source to life tap, and at the same time deal with physical inmunes (but is not as good in crowd control as VoR/Rift). In both cases best weapon to Crescent Moon will be a Phase Blade, not only because the speed but because zeal degrades de durability of the weapons at light speed.

If you want to do pally with Revenge + Conviction then you must choice a weapon with very high physical damage, because what Revenge does is to clone these damage in fire, cold and lightning (without convert the physical damage, that still reamains).

Some great runewords to a Avenger could be Oath and Death, less lethal than Famine or Breath Of The Dying but much more cheaper and with very good mods to the Avenger.

[LordC]

for eBotD:
275 physical
1331 fire * -50 resist = 1996
1331 ice * -50 resist = 1996
1331 lightning * -50 resist = 1996
Total = 6263

I think you incorporated the ethereal aspect incorrectly here. Base damage of a zerker is 47.5. Eth zerker is 71. The other mods are based on this, so:
1.3*[71+400%(71)]= 461

461 physical
1770 fire * -50 resist = 2655
1770 ice * -50 resist = 2655
1770 lightning * -50 resist = 2655
Total = 8426

100%*(8426/5973)-100 = 41% additional damage using EBotD
Doom's still cooler though.

[Bjam]

The calculations are still wrong.

Base Average Weapon Damage
Doom 223...vs...eBotDz 355

Approx Physical Damage (assuming 160 strength, might merc, and no other ED)
Base damage(100%) + 160% + 240% = 500% of base damage
Doom 1115..vs..eBotDz 1775

Elemental damage should not be multiplied differently for Doom because of +skills. Any decent Avenger will have enough +skills to max the aura out at -150% which generally
leaves enemies at -100% so I will use this number for both cases. +Skills should be factored in when determining the damage multiplier, which in this case gives an edge to Doom). Also, you should not add in the base damage.

Fire, Cold, and Lightning (all the same based on assumptions)
Doom 883...vs..eBotDz 1363
multiply by 2 for conviction
Doom 1766..vs..eBotDz 2726
multiply by 3 for all elements
Doom 5298..vs..eBotDz 8178

So the totals are:
Doom 6413..vs..eBotDz 9953

eBotDz's does >55% more damage and the extra stats, leeching, and speed only widen the advantage. Doom is nice, but eBotD is King.

[BigKevSexyMan]

Ok, I stand corrected.





But does anyone else think eBotD is overpowered now?

[BAMFSpecialOps]

It wouldn't be if you actually had found all of the runes for it. Not to mention just be glad Grief doesn't work with Vengence.