View Full Version : Please make me feel better... Please
I just registered and haven't read any of the forum rules. I also didnt search for similar topics..
Ok heres the thing, diablo series were my favorite games of all time I still play it.. I've played wow for a few years now and totaly hate its plastic noob environment... I mean come on, the stats cant be changed, you can respec as many times as you wan't too.. The game is constant grind and there is not uniqueness at all left... There used be some fun veriety like hunter's pets used to have different attack speeds and spells, and pvp used to take ranks to get real good gear instead of a noob completely sucking at Warsong Gulch and still being able to get the best battleground epic...
So heres is my question... I was reading up on the diablo 3 and all that amazing stuff and I listented to an interview of this guy who said the stat points are going to be automatic... I AM SHOCKED!. even tho his comment about it did sort of make sense but omg... without it, diablo 3 shoudn't even be called diablo... like Why change the game so much cuz of people being tooo stupid and having to reroll the character again... It feels like its going to be soo much like World Of Warcraft where everycharacter is exactly the same.... and all you have to do is chase after the items at the end... And class specific items i am thinking is going to be ruined too.. like WOW Mage coundn't wear plate so will diablo 3 sorc be able to ? cuz if thats thats totaly ****ing retarded... and it has to be broken because without stats IAM sure sorc would not be allowed to wear same items as barbarian...
And i am pissed because i can't login into battle.net for somereason, never could. I was hoping one of you post this on there and ask for a GM response... WHY CAN't they make a little thing that you can unselect which allows you to put the points where ever you want em too.. I mean yeah true alot of people dont know where to put the points in but come on.. let me have the freedom i used to love so much in d2... And ok they could say something like" yeah ok but we woudn't be able to balance the game at the higher levels because we don't have a baseline" Ok fine atleast ATLEAST make something like this available to people who completed the game atleast once or got to a certain level... you can't just decrease the level of available customization THAT MUCH.. thats just wrong imo... Sorry kind of a long post but i had to let it all out and get some feedback about it..
I dunno if any of you played fallout 1 and 2 and absolutely loved the game, but later got disappointed because Fallout 3 ****ing is nothing nothing like what the fallout 1-2 used to have which was a perfection besides graphics..
And I probably sounded negative about this all and maybe exadurating but i just dont want my favorite game to get ruined... I love the spells and runes they made and i am sure the game is still going to be pretty cool.. BUT IT SCARES ME THAT THEIR GOING TO RUIN THE ESSENCE OF DIABLO 2... WHY MAKE THE GAME LIKE WORLD OF WARCRAFT, IN WHICH IT DOESNT MATTER WHAT SOOO EVER WHAT YOU DO, YOU CANNOT SCREW UP YOUR CHARACTER.. EVEN IF YOU TRY! lame lame lame lame :(( please say something to make me feel better...
Keighvin
06-03-2009, 22:13
There are other games in the world, Blizzard will not miss you. Feel better?
no, shut up.. it doesnt make me feel better and i don't like other games
Well your opinion is right however with their WoW success they're bound to copy it. Fans of d2 made blizzard a lot less money than fans of WoW sadly, casual idiot-proof games are the real money makers.
jeremyrx
06-03-2009, 22:19
WHY MAKE THE GAME LIKE WORLD OF WARCRAFT, IN WHICH IT DOESNT MATTER WHAT SOOO EVER WHAT YOU DO, YOU CANNOT SCREW UP YOUR CHARACTER.. EVEN IF YOU TRY! lame lame lame lame :(( please say something to make me feel better...
Blizzard likes money. Happy customers give them money. Customers who waste hours by not knowing the perfect way to build their character and don't have enough strength to wear equipment aren't happy. Unhappy customers tell their friends that Blizzard's game sucks. Blizzard doesn't make as much money.
Now that you have understanding, hopefully peace will follow. :thumbup:
haha thanks for the agreeing on some points and some answers... Another question just came up. Are the drops going to be like old d2 or some ****ty roll system ?
And class specific items i am thinking is going to be ruined too.. like WOW Mage coundn't wear plate so will diablo 3 sorc be able to ? cuz if thats thats totaly ****ing retarded... and it has to be broken because without stats IAM sure sorc would not be allowed to wear same items as barbarian...
Since when a caster should wear plate? Any self respecting sorc in d2 didn't wear anything above studded leather or something light :) Light plate only exception.. even that is quite heavy.
Why so much whine when you havent even played the game yet.. When I get D3 and start playing it.. my first tought when I enter the world won't be "wether I'm able to wear this and that".. seriosly that will be one of the coolest games ever made. D2 is fun and was total ownage in 2000-2001 but nowadays.. its not that great anymore.
haha thanks for the agreeing on some points and some answers... Another question just came up. Are the drops going to be like old d2 or some ****ty roll system ? There must be like 50 pages of stuff said only by blizzards D3 staff.. even the drop system has been covered. No roll system but everyone in the group gets their own drops so no more pickup hacks or anything like that.
and by making me happy i mean't if you can tell me something good about the system which might make it a lil better.. like sort of ideas in which this thing is not such a horrible mistake
I do agree diablo 3 is going to be the **** no matter what they do it to.. its the whole diablo lore which makes the game interesting... I really cant wait till it comes out.. and i heard its going to be during summer which is also a great timing to completely not sleep and play all day everyday -.-
oh so whatever drops from a boss or a regular mob is going to be given to every party member in that area ?
Probably the itemization will get a alot better due to no manual stat allocation. Designers know exactly how much str/mana/hp at minimum. Also spell costs can be designed nicely because there won't be people that have only 10 points in energy when they would require a bit more to do something useful.
ofc character customization might feel worse now, but the huge amount of skills and especially passive skills, that can enhance the bonuses you get from energy/str/vita/dex offer you a nice way to customize your stats.
oh so whatever drops from a boss or a regular mob is going to be given to every party member in that area ? Probably only bigger drops, like from super uniques (that are probably more meaningful opponents than in D2), act bosses etc. I'm quite sure normal random mobs drops will be free for all. Not sure about that, iirc it wasn't meantioned so much in the dev panels.
Why so much whine when you havent even played the game yet.. When I get D3 and start playing it.. my first tought when I enter the world won't be "wether I'm able to wear this and that".. seriosly that will be one of the coolest games ever made. D2 is fun and was total ownage in 2000-2001 but nowadays.. its not that great anymore.
There must be like 50 pages of stuff said only by blizzards D3 staff.. even the drop system has been covered. No roll system but everyone in the group gets their own drops so no more pickup hacks or anything like that.
Well thats the thing there hasnt been another game like diablo 2, for those that love WoW at the moment of course theres hundereds of things wrong with d2; number 1 being its not WoW.
And the drop system is another WoW carebears thing, it should be a diablo 2 reflex gets the best items system; same with pking, not this hand holding bs.
Turnip, shut up. You obviously hate everything about Diablo 3, so get off the forum before I get my flaming arrows of troll-slaying.
Fasho, I'm typing a long post right now, addressing your concerns.
I didn't care much about D2 drops system since 90% of the time I soloed and 10% was in a party with friends and we shared the stuff.
Its not only reflex.. its computer performance and latency 50% and reflex 50% maybe. If you lag its 99% lag and 1% reflex.. I was in a CS run to see whats going on and the items disappeared before I saw them.. yeah i have bad reflexes obviosly.. or actually the beam from my eyes to brains is so slow that I didn't even see the items.
I play WoW or played i guess.. it was great for the first 2 years before expansions just like D2 was great for the first year before expansion. Only way it affects my opinions is the fact that I've played something else than only D2 for the last 10 years.. it widens your picture of games in general and how they really should work.
(Sigh)
Do some research before you start building flaming walls of text. Especially ones with such terrible grammar and punctuation.
1. Yes, attributes are automatic. So what? There are better ways to customize your character. Skills, for example. Also Runes, Equipment, and the systems Blizzard have promised but not revealed yet. And if you're still whining, Blizzard has promised that they are focusing on getting attributes from items.
And for the record, making it impossible to Gimp your character is a GOOD thing. The auto-stats are to give everyone a baseline, so even if they make all the wrong choices the game won't be un-playable. But that doesn't mean you can't make your character obscenely powerful. To use an analogy, everyone starts out in the lower economic class. Making them unable to fall into Poverty is not stopping you from becoming a billionaire, unless you just want to spit on the homeless people from your private helicopter.
2. Item requirements are gone, except for level requirements and class requirements. By the way, you're an idiot. They had class specific items in Diablo 2, and just like in D2 the items are logically divided. For instance, only Wizards can use Orbs, but everyone can use a staff or sword or bow. It wouldn't make sense for a Barbarian to be using an Orb, just like it doesn't make sense for a Necromancer to be using Hatchet Hands. And Wizards can wear Plate.
3. The loot system is not at all like WoW. Whenever a monster is killed, loot is generated as normal, except each person gets their own drop, which only they can see. This is to prevent players from swiping all the good items, and to make sure everyone gets a share. Of course, if you really want to get whatever loot you can grab, there will be an option to have normal looting.
To Explain: Bob the Barbarian, Doc the Witch Doctor, and Zizi the Wizard are in a dungeon. They are in a party and are slaying monsters. They kill an Unburied. For Bob, the Unburied appeared to have dropped Cloth Pants, 52 gold, and a magic Bow. For Doc, it looks like the Unburied dropped a Magic Dagger and a pair of Magic Greaves. For Zizi, it looks like the Unburied dropped 14 gold and nothing else. They can't see each other's loot, so they can take what they see without fear of it being swiped, stolen, or "Ninja'd". Each one got their own un-biased drops. If they want to trade, Doc can pick up the Magic Greaves and drop them. When you drop the item, other players can see it. So Bob can go take them. Essentially, if you can see it then you can loot it.
4. PKs are gone. Cry me a river. Blizzard is limiting the party sizes to Four. Cry me an Ocean. They keep the party size small because they want everyone in a game to be playing WITH each other instead of NEAR each other.
And for someone who hates WoW, it's strange that you like PK, because it requires an open MMO world to surprise someone and ruin their day.
PvP is still in, although Blizz has not said much about how it will work.
5. If you're clamoring so much for loot swiping and PKing, you've probably never been on the receiving end. Don't pick on other players.
6. I have to commend you. You're the first complainer on the board to not mention the Globes.
There. Do I need to say it again? PM me any more questions you have.
Raging_Zealot
06-03-2009, 23:16
We already know item requirements are not based on stats. Wizards will be able to wear heavy armor if you meat the other non-stat related requirements.
(Sigh)
Do some research before you start building flaming walls of text. Especially ones with such terrible grammar and punctuation.
1. Yes, attributes are automatic. So what? There are better ways to customize your character. Skills, for example. Also Runes, Equipment, and the systems Blizzard have promised but not revealed yet. And if you're still whining, Blizzard has promised that they are focusing on getting attributes from items.
And for the record, making it impossible to Gimp your character is a GOOD thing. The auto-stats are to give everyone a baseline, so even if they make all the wrong choices the game won't be un-playable. But that doesn't mean you can't make your character obscenely powerful. To use an analogy, everyone starts out in the lower economic class. Making them unable to fall into Poverty is not stopping you from becoming a billionaire, unless you just want to spit on the homeless people from your private helicopter.
2. Item requirements are gone, except for level requirements and class requirements. By the way, you're an idiot. They had class specific items in Diablo 2, and just like in D2 the items are logically divided. For instance, only Wizards can use Orbs, but everyone can use a staff or sword or bow. It wouldn't make sense for a Barbarian to be using an Orb, just like it doesn't make sense for a Necromancer to be using Hatchet Hands. And Wizards can wear Plate.
3. The loot system is not at all like WoW. Whenever a monster is killed, loot is generated as normal, except each person gets their own drop, which only they can see. This is to prevent players from swiping all the good items, and to make sure everyone gets a share. Of course, if you really want to get whatever loot you can grab, there will be an option to have normal looting.
To Explain: Bob the Barbarian, Doc the Witch Doctor, and Zizi the Wizard are in a dungeon. They are in a party and are slaying monsters. They kill an Unburied. For Bob, the Unburied appeared to have dropped Cloth Pants, 52 gold, and a magic Bow. For Doc, it looks like the Unburied dropped a Magic Dagger and a pair of Magic Greaves. For Zizi, it looks like the Unburied dropped 14 gold and nothing else. They can't see each other's loot, so they can take what they see without fear of it being swiped, stolen, or "Ninja'd". Each one got their own un-biased drops. If they want to trade, Doc can pick up the Magic Greaves and drop them. When you drop the item, other players can see it. So Bob can go take them. Essentially, if you can see it then you can loot it.
4. PKs are gone. Cry me a river. Blizzard is limiting the party sizes to Four. Cry me an Ocean. They keep the party size small because they want everyone in a game to be playing WITH each other instead of NEAR each other.
And for someone who hates WoW, it's strange that you like PK, because it requires an open MMO world to surprise someone and ruin their day.
PvP is still in, although Blizz has not said much about how it will work.
5. If you're clamoring so much for loot swiping and PKing, you've probably never been on the receiving end. Don't pick on other players.
6. I have to commend you. You're the first complainer on the board to not mention the Globes.
There. Do I need to say it again? PM me any more questions you have.
Thanks for the answers everybody, especially you. First of all i dont care about the grammar so its whatever. Things do make more sense now and i feel alot better about em.
I am ok with everything you said but i have 1 more question to you guys. So ok everybody gets their own loot... but like its kinda stupid because lets say i am a sorc and I want a chance to maybe get items for my barbarian.. And i know that sounds greedy or w/e but I am just thinking of the situation.. And atho if i want to get loot for my other character i can do it solo but are the only good drops from a boss would be my class related only ?? And i really have no problem with somebody being a ninja.. but once i typed this all, i remembered you said that you can change the loot to normal, so all the items would drop at the same time and i can use my item magnet to take em all ??
also, where can I read up on all this C3 or w/e information
Yeah. It's not for sure, but I highly doubt Blizzard wouldn't let you switch it to free for all. Although I warn you to only do so with people you know, because strangers will just get upset if you take all their items willy-nilly.
I actually had the same issue about the drop system, but fortunately I'm right. I was trying to imply with Bob, Doc, and Zizi that any class can have any item drop, with no modified treasure tables. It would be boring if you only got items useful to you. Part of the fun of Diablo is sifting through the junk to get the real treasure.
Icerazer
07-03-2009, 00:07
so all the items would drop at the same time and i can use my item magnet to take em all ??
Did you just admit to using Pickit or something similar?
nope. that was somebody else who said that i did or something, but i dont remember saying it
Doctor Salvador
07-03-2009, 06:33
nope. that was somebody else who said that i did or something, but i dont remember saying it
^^^ Lol.
Anyhoo, all of this stuff has been argued over before (Or is currently being argued over) so try just searching around a bit before posting about this sort of thing.
P.S. Like Grug said, I'm surprised you don't like all that good stuff, but you didn't complain about the orbs.
Raging_Zealot
07-03-2009, 07:53
ignore, post got doubled
Raging_Zealot
07-03-2009, 07:56
Thanks for the answers everybody, especially you. First of all i dont care about the grammar so its whatever. Things do make more sense now and i feel alot better about em.
I am ok with everything you said but i have 1 more question to you guys. So ok everybody gets their own loot... but like its kinda stupid because lets say i am a sorc and I want a chance to maybe get items for my barbarian.. And i know that sounds greedy or w/e but I am just thinking of the situation.. And atho if i want to get loot for my other character i can do it solo but are the only good drops from a boss would be my class related only ?? And i really have no problem with somebody being a ninja.. but once i typed this all, i remembered you said that you can change the loot to normal, so all the items would drop at the same time and i can use my item magnet to take em all ??
That isn't how it works. You get the exact same random drops, just you only see your "share" of them. If you are a Wizard, you can still have items good for a Barbarian drop. The drops aren't tailored to your class, there just happen to be some items that are class specific. Just like in D2, non-Assasins could find claw type weapons, non-Barbarians could find barb-only helms, etc. If you are playing as a Wizard, partying with a Barbarian, you both have an equal chance to get items that are useful for a Barbarian (or Barbarian specific), the Barbarian player wont automatically get all the Barbarian items in his share just b/c he is a Barbarian.
Also I hadn't seen anything official claiming you could switch drop type to free for all. I guess it will depend on how B.net2.0 handles the games. I could see it as a game creation option, but not something that could be changed on the fly by individual players. If B.net2.0 incorporates "powers" for the host post creation (possible ban/kick, etc.), I could see the choice of game type "free or split" being one of them, and that would allow "on the fly" changing. Or if there was a vote type system, allowing all the players in game to vote. IMO I think it most likely will either not be an option to change individual drops, or it would be a choice made when creating the game that cannot be changed until you join a game with a the other option chosen, or create another and choose the other option.
Bladewind
07-03-2009, 08:29
Blizzard likes money. Happy customers give them money. Customers who waste hours by not knowing the perfect way to build their character and don't have enough strength to wear equipment aren't happy. Unhappy customers tell their friends that Blizzard's game sucks. Blizzard doesn't make as much money.
Now that you have understanding, hopefully peace will follow. :thumbup:
Stats no longer affect items, you can wear pretty much everything and use whatever you want. You can wear Sacred Armor on a wizard for all that I care too. ;)
Stats have a bigger focus to them now, since they greatly improve damage and utility to stats. For example Strength improves physical damage, armor effectiveness etc while Willpower improves spell damage and increase amount of health you get from orbs.
Sweet stats deserve manual loving. :wink:
And the drop system is another WoW carebears thing, it should be a diablo 2 reflex gets the best items system; same with pking, not this hand holding bs.
I agree, perhaps not on the examples given yet I do agree on the idea. We shouldn't get to much hand holding from the designers. And even though pk and drop steel might be quite annoying, there are other features that can be classified under the hand holding system that don't really solve that much.
A bit of brutality isn't a bad thing. Just a tiny bit.
And for the record, making it impossible to Gimp your character is a GOOD thing. The auto-stats are to give everyone a baseline, so even if they make all the wrong choices the game won't be un-playable. But that doesn't mean you can't make your character obscenely powerful. To use an analogy, everyone starts out in the lower economic class. Making them unable to fall into Poverty is not stopping you from becoming a billionaire, unless you just want to spit on the homeless people from your private helicopter.
For the 53450th time, you don't need auto stats for that. There are other systems. So please, stop acting like you know it all because clearly, you don't.
Bladewind
07-03-2009, 09:09
I prefer free form character creation, so sue me if I want to gimp my barb. :)
Why should I be restricted to using a high base str barb because the auto stats made me have high base strength ?
Why can't I have a uber Seismic slammer / Hammer of the ancients by slamming nearly all my pts into Willpower ? ;)
TarnishedHope
07-03-2009, 10:30
I agree that no stats allocation is a total *****.
Unfortunately, nothing we could do. I hate devs for making this terrible decision, but whining gets us nowhere. I'm sure it'll be a great game regardless. I trust that they will add alternatives to allow for character customization.
You can customize your stats by skills now, there are numerous skills that enhance the bonuses you gain for stats. So thats the place where you now get extra hp and extra damage.
stillman
07-03-2009, 11:31
So many assumptions...
Did Blizzard SAY you can't possibly gimp your chrs, even if you try? Did I miss that quote? I think some people are just making things up....
These assumptions will only come true if Blizzard is a team of morons. I doubt Blizzard can be that bad. They are professionals. They are fully aware of all of the gripes and issues that will emerge with any decision they make concerning gameplay. Don't worry! They are not going to completely ignore you if you miss the manual stats from d2!! They are AWARE that you dislike the new way, and THEY ARE DOING SOMETHING JUST FOR YOU TO HELP MAKE YOU HAPPY AGAIN.
Worried about the game being too easy? Well I have great news: Blizzard is making it harder.
Worried about it being impossible to gimp your chr's? Well Blizzard is making arrangements so that you CAN gimp your chr's.
Respecs likes/dislikes? Blizzard is taking BOTH views into account. They're not going to forget about Mr.X who hates respecs, nor will they leave out Mr.Y who wants respecs.
Too WoWish for yor liking? Fear not. Blizzard has heard this a million times. They are going to address this issue. They are going to make sure it has less WoW and more d2.
You know, it wouldn't surprise me if Blizzard actually had DIFFERENT people working on the game...as opposed to just one man (which is pretty much what many people are suggesting).
Knight_Wolf
07-03-2009, 12:32
Sweet stats deserve manual loving. :wink:
Sweet stats deserve to be kept unexploited more than before.
I agree, perhaps not on the examples given yet I do agree on the idea. We shouldn't get to much hand holding from the designers. And even though pk and drop steel might be quite annoying, there are other features that can be classified under the hand holding system that don't really solve that much.
A bit of brutality isn't a bad thing. Just a tiny bit.
I totally disagree, exploits are exploits .. if you scatter exploitable systems all around the game you will end up with a broken game experiences that only those who exploit the game shall enjoy ... the rest of the causal fan base will only suffer a demented experience.
Shared items are a big exploitable hole ... latency ... hacks ... etc etc etc ... blah blah blah ... use your head for god's sake .. the D3 team is doing this for a good reason .. they want a game as clean as possible from exploits ... and don't use the silly excuse "they will find another way" ... blah ... before the had 10 ways to ruin my game .. now they will have less ways .... BETTER .. seeing a clearly and heavily exploitable system and leaving it as it is is just down right stupid .. that's a no brainer.
For the 53450th time, you don't need auto stats for that. There are other systems. So please, stop acting like you know it all because clearly, you don't.
The are many reasons why auto stats are better than manual ones (which also have their good sides and bad sides) the D3 team definitely weighted the good and bad sides of each and choose auto-stats .. for its good sides outweights the bad ones and fit better with the other new game systems.
For me .. Auto stats
-Help define classes even more and keep them distinctive.
-Makes the game more accessible for new comers to the genre and the franchise.
-Makes the game balance (SP and PvP) much much easier since it is harder to exploit stats.
-Opens room for other fresh and different customization options that require learning and testing .. unlike the old boring worn out stats system.
I could go on .. but i'm sure these reasons are among those which Blizz D3 team had on their minds when they made that choice. :coffee:
I prefer free form character creation, so sue me if I want to gimp my barb. :)
The game has classes for a reason .. it's not a free form character creation game .. if you don't like that find another RPG the offers free form characters that are 100% customizable.
Why should I be restricted to using a high base str barb because the auto stats made me have high base strength ?
Because that's what a BARBARIAN CLASS is like .. it is self contradictory to see a "BARBARIAN" that has 80 STR and 280 WillPower
Why can't I have a uber Seismic slammer / Hammer of the ancients by slamming nearly all my pts into Willpower ? ;)
You can increase your will power in several other ways ... but not to an exploitable extent like before.
-Before: Items+stats
-Now: Items+skills
Can you tell the difference ... i guess not .. with stats you can just spam one stat to exploit your character ... easy exploitation much .. like you said .. slam all your points into your will power ... easy .. huh ... but when the customization got shifted more to skills now every skill point will have 50% more value than before ... you either use that skill point to spend on passive skills that increase your will power or on active skills you use in combat.
It encourages thinking and making more meaningful choices without breaking the game.
-Spamming stats offered RISK and REWARD but the risk almost broke the game.
-But now customization through skills offers RISK and REWARD but the risk here won't in ANY WAY break the game.
So many assumptions...
Did Blizzard SAY you can't possibly gimp your chrs, even if you try? Did I miss that quote? I think some people are just making things up....
Great post man :yes:
Brother Laz
07-03-2009, 12:45
It feels like its going to be soo much like World Of Warcraft where everycharacter is exactly the same....
Yes: str for items, dex for max block, everything else into vit. Every character is the same now... wait.
like WOW Mage coundn't wear plate so will diablo 3 sorc be able to ? cuz if thats thats totaly ****ing retarded...
You mean like IN DIABLO 2 AND DIABLO 1? :P Winning mage strategy in D1: equip +str items, equip full plate. And this is a game without automatic stats, but with a stat cap that achieves the same thing.
and it has to be broken
That's what they said about the first horseless carriage, too.
you can't just decrease the level of available customization THAT MUCH.. thats just wrong imo...
I have a Diablo 2 mod, Median XL. Whenever I release a patch that nerfs one skill and buffs a lot of other skills, the only thing you hear is whining about the nerf.
So stop whining about the nerf and look to skill runes. QQ.
BUT IT SCARES ME THAT THEIR GOING TO RUIN THE ESSENCE OF DIABLO 2... WHY MAKE THE GAME LIKE WORLD OF WARCRAFT, IN WHICH IT DOESNT MATTER WHAT SOOO EVER WHAT YOU DO, YOU CANNOT SCREW UP YOUR CHARACTER.. EVEN IF YOU TRY!
YES. IT IS MUCH BETTER TO FORCE PEOPLE TO SCREW UP AND REROLL UNLESS THEY KNOW WHAT NON-INTUITIVE AND ODD STAT POINT PLACEMENT IS REQUIRED TO SUCCEED. OH BUT YOU HAVE THE FREEEEDOM IN D2 TO SPEND YOUR POINTS ANY OTHER WAY THAN THE GUIDE TELLS YOU TO, AND GET A USELESS CHARACTER. YAY LIBERTY.
Sigh... I can just see these people making a barb with 500 energy and then wondering why they cant beat hell. Im sorry but if your dumb enough to mess your stats up as much as you people are saying then you really dont deserve to leave normal difficulty. You should stick to WoW.
Brother Laz
07-03-2009, 13:31
Actually, if you make a barb with 500 strength in D2, you 'can't' beat hell.
That's the whole problem: it is almost impossible to make stat distribution reward intuitive spending of points. The need for energy decreases at higher levels, for example. And unlike melee, casters only need two stats, energy and vitality, so they can crank up vitality.
In D2, you mess up your stats even if you aren't 'dumb', because the ideal stat distribution involves the majority of your points into vit, which is illogical for many characters. In D1, this wasn't a problem due to shrines and stat caps, but vitality was almost useless there and the warrior's main starting stats were dex and magic (!) (to cast town portal and stone curse).
Knowing that it is almost impossible to implement stat points properly, do you really want to punish the player for not following a guide on stat point distribution?
Allow me to apologize for turning this thread in yet an other stats thread. I'll try be as short as possible and only point out things that are wrong - or I believe to be wrong.
Because that's what a BARBARIAN CLASS is like .. it is self contradictory to see a "BARBARIAN" that has 80 STR and 280 WillPower
Wrong.
A barbarian is a character that is aimed towards brutal mele damage. If he prefers to get there by adding str or vitality is his option. Even a higher emphasis on dex isn't a problem. Saying that a barbarian is definable by just one aspect is wrong. There are many ways to create a barbarian and a full willpower build might not be one of them, there are still many other variants that are a barbarian.
-Spamming stats offered RISK and REWARD but the risk almost broke the game.
-But now customization through skills offers RISK and REWARD but the risk here won't in ANY WAY break the game.
If the risk almost broke the game, then perhaps the reward almost made game. Taking out the risk will take out the reward. You can't get them both. So by eliminating the risk, you eliminate the reward.
I totally disagree, exploits are exploits .. if you scatter exploitable systems all around the game you will end up with a broken game experiences that only those who exploit the game shall enjoy ... the rest of the causal fan base will only suffer a demented experience.
Shared items are a big exploitable hole ... latency ... hacks ... etc etc etc ... blah blah blah ... use your head for god's sake .. the D3 team is doing this for a good reason .. they want a game as clean as possible from exploits ... and don't use the silly excuse "they will find another way" ... blah ... before the had 10 ways to ruin my game .. now they will have less ways .... BETTER .. seeing a clearly and heavily exploitable system and leaving it as it is is just down right stupid .. that's a no brainer.
You clearly didn't understand what I were trying to say. I clearly said not to agree with the mentioned examples yet all you do is talk about the mentioned examples.
I were thinking about auto stats - that prevent you from screwing things over. I were thinking about respecs - that again, prevent you from screwing things over, certainly with the idea some propose. I were thinking about unlimited ammunition - that prevents you from running out of ammuntion. I were thinking about the lack of monster that can one hit you* - and by that, you are removing the brutality of the monsters.
And there are probably more examples.
*: note that I'm not saying that we should have many monster that can one hit you. diablo II might have a bit to many. yet if I encounter gloams at the wsk with conviction aura's, I expect to be killed in one hit unless I took serious measures. Or diablo's lighting hose of dead.
Exploits are Exploits, yet there are many other ways to get a similar feel.
Valvolux
07-03-2009, 14:32
Customisation of stats is complete rubbish, in d2 there was a rule, enough str to equip heaviest item (mostly ignored due to str bug), enough dex for max block (if you used a shield) and rest into vitality. That was it, everyone who played long enough came to realise this, and it was only the casual gamers that thought perhaps casters might need energy to cast spells effectively etc that suffered. Thankfully the new blizzard team has worked this out and are looking for more efficient ways to make characters unique and more importantly fun to play.
Ya what would diablo 2 be without things like the lightning hose of death? IT was what made things like hardcore worth playing, what turned the game into an action rpg instead of a slow boring mmorpg, and most importantly what made the game tense to play even when slaughtering screenfulls of enemies. Of course now they are implementing health orbs and lowering enemies damage, turning it into a halo 2 system instead of a counter-strike system; sounds lame but maybe someone has insight into why it will be better with a slower paced system?
Lazer LXXVII
07-03-2009, 15:32
Its made by Blizzard, you know it will be an incredible game.
And also, remember this is Diablo 3, not Diablo 2.5. Just about everything should be different, with a bit of things returning from the earlier games. Its going to be a completely different game, that follows after Diablo 2 ends, set in the Diablo world. Its not a direct copy of Diablo 2 with extra features.
Honestly, it sounds dumb to me too. But i really dont care, because i know how Blizzard is, and whatever they end up doing, i know its going to be an amazing game as always.
I think same, so give that guy some good drink for that quote. :guiness:
Knight_Wolf
07-03-2009, 16:28
Wrong.
A barbarian is a character that is aimed towards brutal mele damage. If he prefers to get there by adding str or vitality is his option. Even a higher emphasis on dex isn't a problem. Saying that a barbarian is definable by just one aspect is wrong. There are many ways to create a barbarian and a full willpower build might not be one of them, there are still many other variants that are a barbarian.
(Wrong)²
If Blizzard wants to define each class by a main stat or two then that class will be what Blizz defines it to be ... if the Barbarian in D3 is defined by his strength then it doesn't make sense to allow people to max willpower instead or even put half their points there leaving STR equal or lower than will power.
The classes are what the team define them to be .. if they want to define them using stats and skills together then that's IMO way better than D2 were many silly mistakes done by the design team blurred the lines between the classes and made the whole class idea POINTLESS to begin with.
The whole idea of classes is making distinctive characters that play differently from each other .. the more distinctive the better.
If the risk almost broke the game, then perhaps the reward almost made game. Taking out the risk will take out the reward. You can't get them both. So by eliminating the risk, you eliminate the reward.
Something that gives a risk that breaks the game is an unwanted design element regardless of whatever reward it gives .... it's replacement is a system that offers a moderate risk and a moderate reward ... in some way it is the same if not much better .. since the moderate risk is WAY better than a GAME BREAKING risk.
You clearly didn't understand what I were trying to say. I clearly said not to agree with the mentioned examples yet all you do is talk about the mentioned examples.
I were thinking about auto stats - that prevent you from screwing things over.
I clearly said there are other reasons for auto-stats .. you aren't listening.
I were thinking about respecs - that again, prevent you from screwing things over,
There are many other reasons for respecs too ... but you seem to ignore them all and see only what you want.
certainly with the idea some propose. I were thinking about unlimited ammunition - that prevents you from running out of ammuntion.
It only removes tiresome-boring-monotonous-repetitive-meaningless town journeys every minute to buy arrows.
I were thinking about the lack of monster that can one hit you* - and by that, you are removing the brutality of the monsters.
And there are probably more examples.
One hit kills are cheap gimmicks that are very annoying .. specially in online games (mainly due to latency) .... again like all the exploitable stupid systems before ... it needs to go to the trash.
If the only way you can think of to create a challenge is by making one-hit-kill monsters then that's very very pathetic and a train wreck design methodology.
NEWS FLASH ... the D3 team is already working on more SMART ways to make the game more challenging and FUN ... removing town portals and spammable potions are good examples of that.
The classes are what the team define them to be ..
Blizzard does not have the right to say what a certain is class. RPG's are way to old to do something like that. In your view, they could simply put the wizards skills on the barbarian and that would be fine.
We both know it isn't.
Yet having more or less willpower is totally different. As long as the barbarian reacts different to this increase in willpower - forinstance, by lacking skills to power up - that's more then enough. You don't have to dictate every little aspect. You need to try and make a framework where the classes do what they have to do without forcing them in a small box.
Look at dungeons and dragons forinstance. If I remember correct, the barbarian there was defined by his high life and combat auto abilities. Yet you could play him with high armour or with high dodge. You could play him with massive weapons or more refined weapons. He still was a barbarian, but he was more then just muscle without brains - if you wanted him to be like that.
If you were worried about willpower barbarians, just make willpower as useless as mana is for the DII barbarian. You won't see many of them around.
The whole idea of classes is making distinctive characters that play differently from each other .. the more distinctive the better.
From where does this distinction come?
I believe this distinction should from unique skills, from a unique response to the stats and from different abilities - i.e. weapon speed, cast speed etc. Hopefully, these two mechanisms will result in a distinction in gear used and in a distinction in stats allocation.
If you want to change things for stats, it should be the effect. A barbarian might gain less additional spell damage then a wizard thus even a full willpower barbarian with the same skills as the wizard will be the same. Just like a full life wizard will be different from a barbarian.
Something that gives a risk that breaks the game is an unwanted design element regardless of whatever reward it gives
Doesn't the same apply for auto and manual stats?
I clearly said there are other reasons for auto-stats .. you aren't listening.
I'm not listening, but that's because I can hear you. Why don't you go outside and shout. I'll let you know I can hear you.
P.S. Note that I never argued with any if your reasons for auto-stats, nor did I try to deny the existence of them.
There are many other reasons for respecs too ... but you seem to ignore them all and see only what you want.
when did I ever said anything about reason for respecs. All I said was that respecs take away a part of the brutality that I find in DII.
It only removes tiresome-boring-monotonous-repetitive-meaningless town journeys every minute to buy arrows.
That not true, just yesterday, I played a low level bowazon with crappy gear and I only had to go back to two for arrows once - and I played for an hour.
If the only way you can think of to create a challenge is by making one-hit-kill monsters then that's very very pathetic and a train wreck design methodology.
I never argued that it should be the only way. However, I try to recognise the fuction it can play when placed on the right place at the right time.
One hit kills are cheap gimmicks that are very annoying .. specially in online games (mainly due to latency) .... again like all the exploitable stupid systems before
And just how is this exploitable?
Doctor Salvador
07-03-2009, 20:14
As annoyed as some people are by limited ammunition, I'll never understand the arrow argument. On my first bowazon I took to nightmare before I got bored, I never went to town a single time. Enemies drop plenty of arrows for you, and it was just never a problem. However, that to me does kind of make it pointless, 'cause I was never in any danger of running out of arrows, so the whole limited ammunition thing was kind of pointless.
Blizzard does not have the right to say what a certain is class.
I'm really not following that argument, I may have just read it differently or whatever, but I just don't get that. It's blizzard's aRPG, of course they have the right to restrict the classes to what they feel are neccessary boundaries. Who's to say you can't make a big goofy willpower maxed barb anyway? Slap a bunch of willpower boosting gear on, and woopty doo, you have a barb that will do a lot of damage with Hammer of the Ancients, and slightly less damage with Cleave and WW. It's the same thing, only not permanent. But of course, in NASE's point of view Diablo is an unforgiving game (which I agree in certain aspects is a nice quality), so that just doesn't cut it for NASE and others. However, that is the gamble Blizz is taking: they've looked at what everyone wants, and they compromised to an extent and got what should be optimized happiness out of all of us.
Blizz is compromising as best as they can, 'cause in the end we're one big Diablo community, so making one 'side' happy doesn't make any sense for the [financial] health of Blizzard.
Knight_Wolf
07-03-2009, 20:39
Blizzard does not have the right to say what a certain is class. RPG's are way to old to do something like that. In your view, they could simply put the wizards skills on the barbarian and that would be fine.
We both know it isn't.
LOLS .. says who .. in general they can define their classes the way the want or even invent new ones if they wish ... that's a given.
And when did i advocate anything like putting wizard skills on barbs ... MY VIEW wants the classes to be more distinctive .. THE OPPOSITE of what you said my view advocates ... guess you missed this one .. huh?
Ironically isn't that exactly what you are asking them to do by allowing manual stats ... there is no difference between allowing you to "simply put the wizards skills on the barbarian" and allowing you to max willpower on a barbarian ... they are EXACTLY the same.
But still .. what they are doing is basically returning ech class to its roots .. barbarians -> STR ... wizards -> willpower ... and so on ... and just because barbarian's main stat is STR it doesn't mean you can't tamper with the other stats one way or the other .. the only thing you can't do is BREAK the stats and ruin the class defining ratios (i.e barbarians always having more STR than Willpower or Dex ... but still can have v.high STR with high willpower or v.high STR with high Dex)
Yet having more or less willpower is totally different. As long as the barbarian reacts different to this increase in willpower - forinstance, by lacking skills to power up - that's more then enough. You don't have to dictate every little aspect. You need to try and make a framework where the classes do what they have to do without forcing them in a small box.
Look at dungeons and dragons forinstance. If I remember correct, the barbarian there was defined by his high life and combat auto abilities. Yet you could play him with high armour or with high dodge. You could play him with massive weapons or more refined weapons. He still was a barbarian, but he was more then just muscle without brains - if you wanted him to be like that.
Again you are missing the whole point .. nobody said you can't affect/alter your stats in D3 .. you can (through items and skills) ... but you just can't ABUSE IT .. that's the difference.
If you were worried about willpower barbarians, just make willpower as useless as mana is for the DII barbarian. You won't see many of them around.
I'm not worried about willpower barbs .. i'm worried about a broken system that could have many negativities.
I choose the direction Blizz took cause it makes more sense over what you advocating here.
From where does this distinction come?
I believe this distinction should from unique skills, from a unique response to the stats and from different abilities - i.e. weapon speed, cast speed etc. Hopefully, these two mechanisms will result in a distinction in gear used and in a distinction in stats allocation.
If you want to change things for stats, it should be the effect. A barbarian might gain less additional spell damage then a wizard thus even a full willpower barbarian with the same skills as the wizard will be the same. Just like a full life wizard will be different from a barbarian.
You sound like you just want manual stats for the heck of it .. trying to come up with variations doesn't remove the main problems with manual stats.
Doesn't the same apply for auto and manual stats?
Auto stats aren't exploitable or game breaking ... manual stats are when abused.
P.S. Note that I never argued with any if your reasons for auto-stats, nor did I try to deny the existence of them.
You clearly claiming the main reason for auto-stats is so that "noobs" don't mess their characters up .. and trying to make it sound like this is the only reason .. so i tried to point that out to you before you start building arguments over that incorrect assumption.
when did I ever said anything about reason for respecs. All I said was that respecs take away a part of the brutality that I find in DII.
"that again, prevent you from screwing things over," .. your words not mine ... you clearly assuming that respecs are only for fixing mistakes .. they are there for more than just that.
And like i said .. they are already working on making the game harder in a more interesting and smart way ... that reduced monster brutality thing is just an weird assumption you are making.
That not true, just yesterday, I played a low level bowazon with crappy gear and I only had to go back to two for arrows once - and I played for an hour.
Wonder how much space did the arrows/bolts you carried took ... either way it's still an unneeded gimmick for an action RPG .. this isn't a first person shooter.
I never argued that it should be the only way. However, I try to recognise the fuction it can play when placed on the right place at the right time.
It's like trying to make a pizza using rotten ingredients ... the concept itself is broken .. there is no right place or time for it.
And just how is this exploitable?
Well, by the game (just like some games the computer cheats on higher diff), but it goes beyond that too ... latency issues are a major issue concerning online play specially with a number of players in the dame game .. add one-hit monsters and you got a recipie for annoyance and frustration.
BLizz certainly cares about having a fun streamlined experience more than offering something for those who want to show off their e-peen online.
Auto stats aren't exploitable or game breaking ... manual stats are when abused.
Perhaps they aren't exploitable, yet I wouldn't say they can't be game breaking.
Kiroptus
07-03-2009, 21:46
About unlimited ammunition: Bashiok said it was better to remove them because it diminished the number of trash drops. The reason why somethings are too difficult to find in D2 are because there lots of trash stuff like arrows, bolts and throwing potions. D3 is making the drops more worthy, I certainly prefer to have unlimited ammunition than having my item roll, that could be a unique, to be a quiver of arrows.
Once again Its the most common line of thought that I see so commonly in any Diablo 2 forum: "D2's design flaws are the brilliance of it!" -> NO, its not!
D2 wasnt "brutal" or "unforgiving" or "So HaRDCORE That It makes my EPeen 10X bigger!". It was just badly designed. Its a good game in 2001 and still can get a play here and there even nowdays but the times are different, Blizzard has changed and so has their design philosofy and their design team. Deal with it.
Its a shame so many people are so adamantly focused on bringing D2's flaws back to D3 instead of fixing/getting rid of them.
AxlStrife
07-03-2009, 22:00
Perhaps they aren't exploitable, yet I wouldn't say they can't be game breaking.
The only way auto-stats can break a game is if too many or too few points are given at level. It takes much less work to figure out the right number than to tweak the stat itself, which would be more of a necessity with manual stats than auto stats.
It makes me sad that no one has the growth numbers from the playable version.
satheron
07-03-2009, 23:23
we all need to keep in mind that we don't know all of the customization options in the game yet.
Srikandi
08-03-2009, 01:14
This gave me a big LOL, for being perversely essentialist:
Blizzard does not have the right to say what a certain is class.
It's not an issue of rights... a class does not pre-exist the game designers. A class is what they make it, and nothing else.
Reminds me of people on another game forum arguing about whether a Bigfoot "is" or "is not" actually the same as a Yeti :) It's all fiction. What a D3 Barbarian is will be exactly what they make it: the collection of his skills, his attributes, and his art, all as interpreted through the game engine.
Once again Its the most common line of thought that I see so commonly in any Diablo 2 forum: "D2's design flaws are the brilliance of it!" -> NO, its not!
D2 wasnt "brutal" or "unforgiving" or "So HaRDCORE That It makes my EPeen 10X bigger!". It was just badly designed. Its a good game in 2001 and still can get a play here and there even nowdays but the times are different, Blizzard has changed and so has their design philosofy and their design team. Deal with it.
Its a shame so many people are so adamantly focused on bringing D2's flaws back to D3 instead of fixing/getting rid of them.
Explain what flaws diablo 2 had.
I liked no respects as it let me experiment a lot and gave me thousands of hours of gameplay in doing so. The original d2 designers knew this and in their new game hellgate they had no respecs, though the game failed for reasons other than this.
I liked 1 hit kill monsters, its like saying halo is better than counter-strike because it doesnt have 1 hit kills, or that wc3 is better than starcraft because starcraft has lower unit life and therefore 1 hit kills; its just wrong..
And finally I liked potions because Im not running into a crowd of enemies face first to grab health or dancing around enemies waiting for a potion timer to refresh. I played mythos like that and its frusterating and just plain unfun.
Of course I can play a game without certain aspects of diablo 2 but we'll have to see how it turns out in the end.
Umm....
I think I'll let someone else rip you a new one.
The only way auto-stats can break a game is if too many or too few points are given at level. It takes much less work to figure out the right number than to tweak the stat itself, which would be more of a necessity with manual stats than auto stats.
They could simply be given out wrong, or they could restrict to many possible classes.
I know some of you don't care, yet other do. And if they fail to bring this back (partially) because the auto stats restrict to much, it will be a fail for a lot of people.
This gave me a big LOL, for being perversely essentialist:
It's not an issue of rights... a class does not pre-exist the game designers. A class is what they make it, and nothing else.
Then ask them in the next panel why they didn't give the barbarian a fireball skill?
I'll tell you why, a barbarian isn't supposed to have elemental magic - certainly not in a ranged skill. Same can be said for willpower, he shouldn't be strong in the willpower aspect. On the other hand, vitality, strength and dexterity are more important and should not be restricted to much.
If they wanted to make an all strength character - and only all strength - they could have used a different name and nobody would mind.
Yet they didn't and so they have to follow the rules.
AxlStrife
08-03-2009, 09:51
They could simply be given out wrong, or they could restrict to many possible classes.
I know some of you don't care, yet other do. And if they fail to bring this back (partially) because the auto stats restrict to much, it will be a fail for a lot of people.
It would be very boneheaded if they gave the stats out wrong, and I'm not about to doubt any serious game company's ability to at least get that right.
While there might be less flexibility as far as gear goes for some off-the-wall character (for instance a D3 Singer/Orb Willpower-based barb) compared to run-of-the-mill "builds", we see this already with D2.
It would be very boneheaded if they gave the stats out wrong, and I'm not about to doubt any serious game company's ability to at least get that right.
Both the DII amazon and DII sorcerer can't be defined with one set of auto stats. And there are arguments against equipment and skills based substitute systems.
For amazon, I see: full dex build for bowazon (with minimal life), full life build for spirit/jmod frostmaiden/javezon. Max block and life build for bowazon/gunslinger.
And that's without mentioning the difference in str based on wf versus faith, enigma versus coh etc.
For sorcerers, I see: full life build for almost all builds in pvm. Yet almost all pvp builds have max block safe for 200 fcr firesorc. And then we have all combinations with energy shield that require lots of mana, and poor variants can't get this all from charms.
And before people start nagging about using DII examples, I'm disproving his points that a company can always give out the correct set of stats by giving examples where it can't be done.
The statements that all elephants are gray can be disproved by finding a single pink elephant.
AxlStrife
08-03-2009, 11:27
Both the DII amazon and DII sorcerer can't be defined with one set of auto stats. And there are arguments against equipment and skills based substitute systems.
For amazon, I see: full dex build for bowazon (with minimal life), full life build for spirit/jmod frostmaiden/javezon. Max block and life build for bowazon/gunslinger.
And that's without mentioning the difference in str based on wf versus faith, enigma versus coh etc.
For sorcerers, I see: full life build for almost all builds in pvm. Yet almost all pvp builds have max block safe for 200 fcr firesorc. And then we have all combinations with energy shield that require lots of mana, and poor variants can't get this all from charms.
And before people start nagging about using DII examples, I'm disproving his points that a company can always give out the correct set of stats by giving examples where it can't be done.
The statements that all elephants are gray can be disproved by finding a single pink elephant.
While I was way too general with my comment (wth ANY game designer can ALWAYS get it right), if we narrow the scope to Blizzard, and even to the Diablo trilogy,In those examples (and every other example that could be brought up) the stats are reflective of the gear, while it seems it will be vice versa in D3 (the gear reflective of the stats). While this is a "That's d2(manual stats), ths is d3(auto-stats)" argument, considering the fundamental shift in customization it's like using Crono from Chrono Trigger (could be set up with Rainbow/Prism Specs/Haste helm for swinging or Gold Stud for 5MP Luminaire) to disprove that game developers couldn't balance the stats for Champions of Norrath. It doesn't fly, not to mention D3 has D2 to build off of.
Seeing as how Blizzard has worked with the current system for some time now, and if things go as they are now will be working wiht the current system for the better part of a year or more, it's a safe bet that they will get it right.
You point out there are arguments against the change in customization focus, yet that doesn't invalidate those changes. It's weird that no one (at least form what I've seen) has actually brought up an argument outside of "I have to sacrifice my enigmaz and forts for lionhearts". To that I say "It's all part of balance, so crying about overpowered/broken systems being replaced with more fair systems only shows your lack of what Blizzard is trying to do with D3."
The main difference is that you are going form a free-to-all system - manual allocation - to a lucky-to-find-what-you-need system - item based. free-to-all system gives you obsolete power. The lucky-to-find-what-you-need system means that on top of the normal equipment that you need to find and on top of the runes that you need to find and on top of what even other system they create - that will probably be drop based too - you now need to find your stats too. Then it makes we wonder what certainty we have.
A secondary difference is the al most costless respecs that seems bound with the system. Based on the discussion we had, The majority agrees that to easy and to extreme respecs aren't good for the game.
P.S. I agree that Blizzard can probably get it right. Yet won't this mean that have to sacrifice certain builds? Looking at the DII examples, I can easily see energy shield to be sacrificed and perhaps even the glass in glass cannon - they'll just add damage to the bows to counter the loss of dex.
I'm not sure I'm ready to sacrifice builds.
Therefore, once again, I plead for a system that has a large base load of auto allocated stats with perhaps 2 to 3 manual allocatable stats per level. It gives a certain customisation while keeping balancing issues small and preventing the need for drop based systems.
Mad Mantis
08-03-2009, 13:35
It would be very boneheaded if they gave the stats out wrong, and I'm not about to doubt any serious game company's ability to at least get that right.
Don't forget that this whole auto-stats thing hangs with how they give out the gear that has +stats. That is something that has to be balanced and it is the weak point of an otherwise rigid system.
Brother Laz
08-03-2009, 14:17
For amazon, I see: full dex build for bowazon (with minimal life), full life build for spirit/jmod frostmaiden/javezon. Max block and life build for bowazon/gunslinger.
And that's without mentioning the difference in str based on wf versus faith, enigma versus coh etc.
Yes, and how the HELL is someone who's playing the game by intuition supposed to know all this? Answer: you don't. You follow a guide. You get the exact items the guide tells you to, and you spend your stat points in exactly the same way.
No thanks. It shouldn't be impossible to build a good character without having the correct endgame items already waiting for you and building it all weird (hands up, you too thought sorcs used staves when you started playing, did you?).
......
The main difference is that you are going form a free-to-all system - manual allocation - to a lucky-to-find-what-you-need system - item based. free-to-all system gives you obsolete power. The lucky-to-find-what-you-need system means that on top of the normal equipment that you need to find and on top of the runes that you need to find and on top of what even other system they create - that will probably be drop based too - you now need to find your stats too. Then it makes we wonder what certainty we have.
It offers a lot more certainty that your points are handled for you and if you want to use a full plate on your mage, you can swap out some items for +str items (even vendor trash +str items).
The alternative, as in D2, is that the game allows you to put those points into strength. Yay! No item dependency! Except Enigma needs 40 less strength than you now have, and you have no other use for strength. LOL YOU WASTED 40 POINTS.
I don't know, but I'd prefer buying some +str gear or looking for blues with +str over having to KNOW that I want to use Enigma and spending exactly the right amount of strength to use it because otherwise I'd nerf my character.
D2 is a lot more item dependent for its stats than D3 because instead of having to find +str items, you need to SPEND your STATS EXACTLY to accomodate your items. Items with +str can be swapped out. Stats cannot be changed if you decide you want other items or you can't find your dream items.
......
And before people start nagging about using DII examples, I'm disproving his points that a company can always give out the correct set of stats by giving examples where it can't be done.
'The correct set of stats' assumes that you're playing under D2 rules. So maybe your D3 wizard uses Frozen Orb Nova Multishot and it costs so much mana that you wish you could put more points into energy, or maybe you use a bow and you don't need any energy. So? Get items with +enr or +dex respectively.
The rules have changes, you don't need the exact correct set of stats anymore.
Also: thanks for saying it like it is: THE CORRECT SET OF STATS. Ladies and gentlemen, where is the added room for creativity in stat points if you have to spend them 'correctly' to match your skill/item build anyway?
The rules have changes, you don't need the exact correct set of stats anymore.
Also: thanks for saying it like it is: THE CORRECT SET OF STATS. Ladies and gentlemen, where is the added room for creativity in stat points if you have to spend them 'correctly' to match your skill/item build anyway?
If you do it, it's because you want to, not because the games forces you to do so. There are very few build the require perfect stats allocation and those that do are theme builds - and therefore, only for the people with to much time.
No thanks. It shouldn't be impossible to build a good character without having the correct endgame items already waiting for you and building it all weird (hands up, you too thought sorcs used staves when you started playing, did you?).
It's not like that, and manual stats help. Now, you will need items with the correct stats to survive. With manual stats, atleast that aspect disapears making items section much easier. And yes, perhaps you need to keep 25 points in order to accommodate to the different items you find, yet that isn't a problem.
I don't know, but I'd prefer buying some +str gear or looking for blues with +str over having to KNOW that I want to use Enigma and spending exactly the right amount of strength to use it because otherwise I'd nerf my character.
You do know that if you are going to crappy blue items in key parts of the equipment you are going to get annihilated. You can just buy a few +str items and assume you can take on hell with a mele sorcerer. It just doesn't work. You need to have the right set of stats boost equipment. With manual stats, all you have to is give them out. Gear is then a different story.
'The correct set of stats' assumes that you're playing under D2 rules. So maybe your D3 wizard uses Frozen Orb Nova Multishot and it costs so much mana that you wish you could put more points into energy, or maybe you use a bow and you don't need any energy. So? Get items with +enr or +dex respectively.
But what if I can't find the items I need? Then I'm screwed. And that's the difference between a free-for-all system and that lucky-to-find-what-you-need system.
Also: thanks for saying it like it is: THE CORRECT SET OF STATS. Ladies and gentlemen, where is the added room for creativity in stat points if you have to spend them 'correctly' to match your skill/item build anyway?
I don't get it. Auto stats take away creativity because they prevent you from being creative. Manual stats allow you to be creative because you can.
AxlStrife
08-03-2009, 18:55
@MadMantis: That sounds just like the beginning of any ladder season. An economy will build to let you get what items you want, it will just take time. It's notl ike Blizzard hasn't ever dealt with such a situation.
@NASE: You can also take from the above statement.
Almost every conceivable skill-based character in D2 has a guide on him/her. It's even MORE imperative to have the correct stat allocation and gear for those gimped off-the-wall builds, like you've been arguing for so long, to get some form of survivability in the latter difficulties (thanks to "balancing" the enemies for the overpowered, overplayed builds).
A lot of what you say comes of of the assumption that the way the stats are given will force the player to get +stat items to even survive. Well, gone are the days where you can spray-and-pray or just left-cick-attack ad nauseum. Sorry if the game will be too difficult if you don't get spoonfed the "optimal items" for whatever build. If you can't find whatever items you think you need, then either trade or re-evaluate your play tactics.
@Laz: I still have Fire druids and Fire sorcs on SP that use Leaf Staves (and a HotO +staffmod staff as well):P
Knight_Wolf
08-03-2009, 19:04
You do know that if you are going to crappy blue items in key parts of the equipment you are going to get annihilated. You can just buy a few +str items and assume you can take on hell with a mele sorcerer. It just doesn't work. You need to have the right set of stats boost equipment. With manual stats, all you have to is give them out. Gear is then a different story.
Which why manual stats is less interesting (not forgetting all the other downsides mentioned before).
Besides ... We don't know how BLUE items will fare in D3 ... they could be much better that D2 blue items and the item enhancement system could help there too (depending on what it does exactly)
But what if I can't find the items I need? Then I'm screwed. And that's the difference between a free-for-all system and that lucky-to-find-what-you-need system.
Lols at the exaggeration ... don't worry ... you won't be screwed .. there are tons of items in the game .. and there is no reason to think you won't find an item the gives the stat bonus you want .. it will just take a little bit of EFFORT .. not just button spamming and guide reading.
Thousands of items ... only 4 stats .. different values for stat bonus .. you are certain to find the item you want after playing the game and item TRADING for a bit.
I don't get it. Auto stats take away creativity because they prevent you from being creative. Manual stats allow you to be creative because you can.
From what you have been saying i see no creativity at all .. all there was to it is easy to max stats (just spam the stat button you want every Chr. lv up) and cookie cutter builds taught by online guides.
Mixing and matching thousands of different items to get the right mix of stat bonuses and item effects is way more creative.
I liked no respects as it let me experiment a lot and gave me thousands of hours of gameplay in doing so.
Self-contradictory logic ... ahm ... it's didn't let anyone experiment at all .. that's why people spent thousands of hours rerolling characters to try even the slightest change XD
There are people out there who want to experiment but don't have THOUSANDS of hours to waste rerolling +30 characters to try out few build ideas (even wanting to do a small change to a build in D2 requires you to reroll .. stupid system) .. why do they want some sort of limited repecs !!? ... cause they have lives, families and jobs and want to have fun playing the game they bought like you ... Blizz realized that ... wish you luck on grasping it.
I liked 1 hit kill monsters, its like saying halo is better than counter-strike because it doesnt have 1 hit kills, or that wc3 is better than starcraft because starcraft has lower unit life and therefore 1 hit kills; its just wrong.
Irrelevant comparisons ... D3 isn't an FPS or an RTS ... it's an RPG ... one hit kill monsters in RPGs are a gimmicky and stupid design choice ... there are other SMART ways to make the game harder without resorting to cheap lazy *** design choices.
And finally I liked potions because Im not running into a crowd of enemies face first to grab health or dancing around enemies waiting for a potion timer to refresh. I played mythos like that and its frusterating and just plain unfun.
Mythos is made by the same team that made D2 ... you might have not enjoyed it for other reasons (same like HGL) .... potion spam was lame (for so many reasons) and it had to go .. get over it.
In case you want to hear some of the reasons
-They require no skill to use whatsoever
-They require you to go to town too often and break the action flow
-They turn PvP into potion spam matches
Of course I can play a game without certain aspects of diablo 2 but we'll have to see how it turns out in the end.
OMG .. i didn't know you could play a game that doesn't have D2 aspects .. oh my .. i can't believe that .... /end of sarcasm .. sorry if i was annoying .. i couldn't help it:crazyeyes:
Just a few little jabs...
NASE, it sounds like your whole argument is that "Diablo 3 should have manual stats because it gives people the choice to gimp their characters." Except that no one would choose to gimp their characters, and if you say You would then you are a big fat liar. You just want to protect your manual stats apartheid. You're saying that auto-stats eliminate choice, and if you want auto-stats you don't want choice. That's kind of like "pro-life". If you're for abortion, then you're against life. It's a cheap trick.
Turnip: Let me make this simple for you: If you want to change the build a little, why should you spend 30 hours re-rolling from scratch (manual) when you could spend 10 minutes to change your items (auto)?
Halo and Counter-Strike have one hit kills because you're supposed to die over and over. Same with Warcraft and Starcraft. You seem to think our opinions exist in a bubble. Just because we don't want 1-hit kill monsters in Diablo doesn't mean we think EVERY OTHER GAME with 1-hit kills is bad. That's just stupid.
Diablo is like a fist fight. The victor is decided by who is more skilled and who is better conditioned. With one-hit-kill monsters, it's a Gun fight. Whoever shoots first wins. Conditioning barely matters at all, and training only helps sometimes. Now imagine a Fist fight where one person has a gun. Any guess on who's going to win? Diablo's fights are about one super powerful fighter (the character) against a horde of weak fighters (the monsters). If the monsters can kill the character in one hit, then the fight is over after one hit. Why is that fun?
Well its random man, its not screens and screens of 1 shot kill monsters its every once in a while. Its like a challenge which breaks the tedium of killing things which cant even touch you, and they are not impossible with quick thinking and reflexes.
If you think diablo 3 can have some form of challenge without resorting to reflex then your most likely wrong, its like making an fps which gives every player an extra 5 seconds to aim; is it really giving a better player a challenge because your dragging him down to their level? In my opinion your just giving him frustration.
Demetrium
09-03-2009, 06:57
OP, crawl back under the hole you came from.
I'm honestly surprised you were even capable of registering for a forum and then somehow managed to post on it.
AxlStrife
09-03-2009, 08:47
OP, crawl back under the hole you came from.
I'm honestly surprised you were even capable of registering for a forum and then somehow managed to post on it.
Fry's squint and your tone match up too well for me not to give kudos, and that's not just because of the quoted post.
Knight_Wolf
09-03-2009, 09:10
Well its random man, its not screens and screens of 1 shot kill monsters its every once in a while. Its like a challenge which breaks the tedium of killing things which cant even touch you, and they are not impossible with quick thinking and reflexes.
Not impossible .. nobody said they are impossible to kill .. but they are freaking annoying and stupid .. they are a lame excuse for a challenge .. the easy way for someone idiotic who can't design a decent rewarding challenge.
Like Grug said .. it's like giving a guy a gun in a fist fight .. there is no meaningful challenge here .. his opponents will either get LUCKY to punch him before he fires ... or NOT .. which is probably the case.
If you think diablo 3 can have some form of challenge without resorting to reflex then your most likely wrong, its like making an fps which gives every player an extra 5 seconds to aim; is it really giving a better player a challenge because your dragging him down to their level? In my opinion your just giving him frustration.
Again comparing FPS mechanics and RPG mechanics is very laughable really ... plz stop doing this. :wave:
JNASE, it sounds like your whole argument is that "Diablo 3 should have manual stats because it gives people the choice to gimp their characters." Except that no one would choose to gimp their characters, and if you say You would then you are a big fat liar.
Are you now claiming that I don't/won't make interesting - statswise - characters and that all I do is make hammerdins?
Turnip: Let me make this simple for you: If you want to change the build a little, why should you spend 30 hours re-rolling from scratch (manual) when you could spend 10 minutes to change your items (auto)?
Respecs give you the exact same result. And the reason why some want to keep those elements out of the game is that when you change builds, you should play them through the game. Not just for that one place in the game you want to farm.
Now for small mistakes, it's not much of a problem. Yet that's no argument for auto stats, it's an argument for respecs. I'm even going to say more, it's an argument for manual stats because you can't respec auto stats. All you can do is change equipment and you really aren't going to find the needed equipment in 10 minutes.
Diablo is like a fist fight. The victor is decided by who is more skilled and who is better conditioned. With one-hit-kill monsters, it's a Gun fight. Whoever shoots first wins
It's like a fist fight against Mohammed ali. You are going to get one hitted and it's still a fist fight. All you can do is be creative and find a way to survive. You could run away and hope ali would drop dead before you do.
Like Grug said .. it's like giving a guy a gun in a fist fight .. there is no meaningful challenge here .. his opponents will either get LUCKY to punch him before he fires ... or NOT .. which is probably the case.
That's why they invented kevlar.
And that's why in DIII we have items like Wisp Projector, Thundergod's Vigor, chains of honour and integer magic and physical absorb.
It would be bad if you can't do anything to prevent it. Yet often, there are easy things you can do or there are tactics you can apply - like decoy on a low life character when facing gloams.
Knight_Wolf
09-03-2009, 14:45
Respecs give you the exact same result. And the reason why some want to keep those elements out of the game is that when you change builds, you should play them through the game. Not just for that one place in the game you want to farm.
Now for small mistakes, it's not much of a problem. Yet that's no argument for auto stats, it's an argument for respecs. I'm even going to say more, it's an argument for manual stats because you can't respec auto stats. All you can do is change equipment and you really aren't going to find the needed equipment in 10 minutes.
If you accept auto stats for what they are then there is no argument for repsecs involved with stats ... there are only 4 stats .. but there are more than 50 skills for each character class .. there is NO COMPARISON whatsoever.
Besides .. why the stark extremism .. why do you think repecs either has to be there to fix little mistakes or to completely change ones build .. WTH .. it has been said a thousand time that the respecs that will work with D3 is limited respecs .. one that allows you to do slight changes to your build or fix mistakes.
An example for those who fail to understand the obvious.
Let's say i bought D3 and played it for few weeks ... then at lv.60 with my wizard i decided that skill(A) in which i invsted 10 points in isn't really that helpful to my current wizard setup/build or items ... on my god .. i can't change even soemthing this simple .. i will have to waste hours of my precious time to make the EXACT same build with the EXACT same skills minus the ten skill points i wasted on a skill that i didn't find that useful ... great system /sarcasm ... seriously :crazyeyes:
With the limited respecs i suggested in another thread i will simply have to level my wizard up to lv.80 and get 10 repspec points (i.e to redistribute the 10 points i wasted on a useless skill) then continue my game normally uninterrupted by the shotcomings of a dated ancient leveling system from a game called D2.
-That doesn't mean i'm not going to make anymore wizards.
-That means i will be able to try more crazy stuff cause i know for sure that if something doesn't work i will be able to tweak things.
-That means every second of my limited playtime will be meaningful and always new not rerolls or previous characters i ALREADY made.
It's like a fist fight against Mohammed ali. You are going to get one hitted and it's still a fist fight. All you can do is be creative and find a way to survive. You could run away and hope ali would drop dead before you do.
lols .... I don't think those who got KOed by Mohamed Ali's fierce knockouts really enjoyed it .. or did they :crazyeyes:
That's why they invented kevlar.
And that's why in DIII we have items like Wisp Projector, Thundergod's Vigor, chains of honour and integer magic and physical absorb.
Yeah .. and we have something called Head Shots too ... it's not fun for those who will get shot at for sure .. but fun for the person with the gun .. which is in our case the game itself .. i don't want my game to be having more fun than me ... that's just ridicolus.
Besides .. those items you mention are just an attepmet to patch up for a broken system (which was a bad habit of the D2 team) .. how many hours and how many people will have to suffer from broken gameplay until they find those oh-so-rare items ..besides .. haven't we LEARNED ANYTHING from "ENIGMA".
It would be bad if you can't do anything to prevent it. Yet often, there are easy things you can do or there are tactics you can apply - like decoy on a low life character when facing gloams.
Regardless ... how many characters can create decoys in D3 .. and how can you guarantee that latency on online games won't cause you instant death that you CAN'T do anything about ... no thanks .. not worth it.
barbarians have leap attack and leep which can easily dodge attacks or stun monster, not to mention the existence of war cries - taunt - which should stop them (temporary) from utilising ranged attacks and skills to increase life and resistance.
Sorcerers have teleport - which can be used to dodge the attacks - aswell as strong cast delay attacks like orb that are good enough to take care of them without the need of secondary fast attacks.
Nercomancer have quite a few curses that will prevent most action. I'm not sure they work on gloams yet I see not reason why they wouldn't. And even they don't, minions or poison can take care of the gloams while you run around dodging their attacks.
Druids have this little fun skill that absorb elemental damage. I'm not sure how well it functions with minimal investement. Yet if they combine this with high life - oak or shifted form - , good resistances and some summon and it still should be possible.
paladins have this very intersting skill that boots elemental resistance through the roof. Or they use holy freeze to slow them. Maxed resistances with good life will already get you far, and paladins should have good resistance.
You speak about a broken system, yet how do you stand against diablo's lighting hose, or duriel at normal? how do you stand against the ancients that have disposed of many characters very fast?
P.S. 10 misplaced points can still be seen as a small mistake. Yet I can't see how you link what you said with an argument for or against manual or auto stats?
Agkistrodon
09-03-2009, 15:16
OP, crawl back under the hole you came from.
I'm honestly surprised you were even capable of registering for a forum and then somehow managed to post on it.
Dude, that was perfect. Just like a previous poster said, the avatar w/ Fry squinting coupled with the tone of this comment are so fitting.
Fry FTW!
Knight_Wolf
09-03-2009, 15:53
barbarians have leap attack and leep which can easily dodge attacks or stun monster, not to mention the existence of war cries - taunt - which should stop them (temporary) from utilising ranged attacks and skills to increase life and resistance.
Sorcerers have teleport - which can be used to dodge the attacks - aswell as strong cast delay attacks like orb that are good enough to take care of them without the need of secondary fast attacks.
Nercomancer have quite a few curses that will prevent most action. I'm not sure they work on gloams yet I see not reason why they wouldn't. And even they don't, minions or poison can take care of the gloams while you run around dodging their attacks.
Druids have this little fun skill that absorb elemental damage. I'm not sure how well it functions with minimal investement. Yet if they combine this with high life - oak or shifted form - , good resistances and some summon and it still should be possible.
paladins have this very intersting skill that boots elemental resistance through the roof. Or they use holy freeze to slow them. Maxed resistances with good life will already get you far, and paladins should have good resistance.
Great ... now you are forcing people to max those skills if the want to enjoy the game and not have a frustrating experience .. how is that for broken gameplay .. no thanks again .. you are putting one big broken idea and trying to do convoluted things and patch it up to look good .. too much effort wasted for an unworthy broken concept.
You speak about a broken system, yet how do you stand against diablo's lighting hose, or duriel at normal? how do you stand against the ancients that have disposed of many characters very fast?
Who said i supported any of those .. they are broken bosses .. and the D3 team knows that .. and they clearly point out why the monsters were like that (another of the D2 patching antics) ... the player had access to almost unlimited health by having potion spam (specially rejuvs) so the developers had to patch that up by making the monsters one-kill the player to create a fake feeling of challenge ... that's what happens when you arrogantly insist on keeping broken mechanics and try to patch them up instead of fixing the problems at their core .. treat the cause not the symptoms.
The bosses in D3 won't be broken like in D2 .. that's a given.
P.S. 10 misplaced points can still be seen as a small mistake. Yet I can't see how you link what you said with an argument for or against manual or auto stats?
A small mistake that could cost you hours remaking the same exact character build you already spent hours making instead of spending that time trying something new or enjoying the game.
And you are the one who started talking about respecs and linked them with manual stats ... i'm merely trying to show you why repsecs is needed for skills but not for stats ... simple.
Great ... now you are forcing people to max those skills if the want to enjoy the game and not have a frustrating experience
You do not need to max them. Quite a few of them are one hit wonders or things that are almost a must of the standard builds.
Great ... now you are forcing people to max those skills if the want to enjoy the game and not have a frustrating experience
You do not need to max them. Quite a few of them are one hit wonders or things that are almost a must of the standard builds.
And other question I'm having is the following. Not all characters are equally strong. Barbarians will probably have huge life and resistances while wizard might lack both. Monsters that will not thread the barbarian much might result in one-hit kills depending on the build of the wizard - I'm thinking the glass canon equivalent for Diablo III.
Can you even prevent this from occurring when character can have very different properties?
Doesn't this largely limit the monsters properties? I expect gloams to one hit my bowazon - even with decent life yet terrible resistances. If not, it would be to easy for a barbarian - with about 3k life and almost maxed resistances. So at the very least, you need to change the IA and function of the lightning attack so that they wait for the bowazon to spot them and making the attack so that it can't pierce - or else, a barbarian that ran to far ahead might provoke an attack - if you want to keep them out of the game?
A similar thing can be said for the range fire skeletons in act 5. that easily tear through my bowazon yet don't cause much problems for my fishy zon - and even less for a good barbarian I assume.
[edit]
uh, oeps? Sorry for that.
AxlStrife
09-03-2009, 16:32
You do not need to max them. Quite a few of them are one hit wonders or things that are almost a must of the standard builds.
And other question I'm having is the following. Not all characters are equally strong. Barbarians will probably have huge life and resistances while wizard might lack both. Monsters that will not thread the barbarian much might result in one-hit kills depending on the build of the wizard - I'm thinking the glass canon equivalent for Diablo III.
Can you even prevent this from occurring when character can have very different properties?
Doesn't this largely limit the monsters properties? I expect gloams to one hit my bowazon - even with decent life yet terrible resistances. If not, it would be to easy for a barbarian - with about 3k life and almost maxed resistances. So at the very least, you need to change the IA and function of the lightning attack so that they wait for the bowazon to spot them and making the attack so that it can't pierce - or else, a barbarian that ran to far ahead might provoke an attack - if you want to keep them out of the game?
A similar thing can be said for the range fire skeletons in act 5. that easily tear through my bowazon yet don't cause much problems for my fishy zon - and even less for a good barbarian I assume.
[edit]
uh, oeps? Sorry for that.
Bend your character and play style around the enemies, not the enemies around a flawed "build" or play style.
Ta da!
And just how are going to bend you play style to prevent the mentioned situations.
Or do you believe we should prevent people from making such a character - I'm referring to the glass canon wizard who focusses on willpower (gotten from items) and damage skills to get the most damage possible?
AxlStrife
09-03-2009, 16:52
And just how are going to bend you play style to prevent the mentioned situations.
Or do you believe we should prevent people from making such a character - I'm referring to the glass canon wizard who focusses on willpower (gotten from items) and damage skills to get the most damage possible?
If you're playing a glass cannon bowzon, you should kill most enemies off-screen and keep decoy/valk ahead of you.
If you neglect resistances and life to such a degree that it faults your survivability, then yes you shouldn't make those characters and expect a cakewalk.
I don't expect a cakewalk. That's not the point.
The point is, how are you going to keep me from being one-hitted. note that your tactic doesn't work as the lightning attacks are piecing. Side stepping one lightning attack is possible yet side stepping 3 or 4 is almost impossible.
So I understand correct, you except the existence of some monsters that can one hit some characters?
Scudstorm
09-03-2009, 19:14
And just how are going to bend you play style to prevent the mentioned situations.
Or do you believe we should prevent people from making such a character - I'm referring to the glass canon wizard who focusses on willpower (gotten from items) and damage skills to get the most damage possible?
Hmm... I lost you here...
You see unhappy that D3 doesn't allow manual stats because you like glass-canon zons, titan sorcs and other similar creative/focused builds.
Yet you just made an example where D3's item system allows these kind of builds.
So what's the problem?
Btw, one of the things I dislike about D2 is how we can get omgzpwnzorz when we are rich (as opposed to when we are skilled). Those 5k life hammerdins annoy the living **** out of me. Now I know the following link is outdated info, but we really see a general D2 trend here (http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142367).
My other favorite RPG, Guild Wars, is like the antithesis of D2: fixed life for everyone (customizable via items to a small extent), fixed mana/regen for every class, no potions, very sophisticated skill interaction (while there is little to none in D2), strong and tough monsters, good AI (well, as good as AI gets... they're still quite stupid), infinite respec (and trust me, the possibilities are so vast you can waste entire weeks doing nothing but playing and still never run out. Without respec it would take like what, 50 years?), no stats, big emphasis on party play (except for specific areas doable by solo farming builds, you'd get fried if you go out alone, without a party or players and/or henchmen), and one of the best PvP system.
Now I'm not here to sell you GW, but I shall point out D3 seems to share several of its characteristics, no stats being one of them. While D2 has no more than of a few dozens of builds per class, some more successful than others, GW has much, much more so-called "viable" builds. Without stats. You could be a Ranger and yet have 0 in Marksmanship and do 1-2 damage with your bow, while focusing on using traps. Do you need stats to do that? Not if the skills + items can make it optimized.
Also, your comments about D2 crowd control skills made me think that you have forgotten your untwink days... You have obviously limited experience with a Druid (no, cyclone armor is not a 1pt wonder against hell gloams), with a Sorc (you got the name wrong! And there's no way in hell your tele could be faster than the Gloam's lightning if you're untwink), with a Barb (sure... Leap Attack away from danger... Good luck getting anything killed like that) or with a Necro (you admitted this one yourself ^^). Play more classes, it widens your gameplay experience :D
So what's the problem?
The problem is what could have been.
With manual stats you can create a character that has almost no life - my amazon has barely 300 life and if you know how to play her, it's not much of a problem for pits. Now, with manual stats, I would lose 100 or 200 damage. With my just 1.7k average damage, that's quite a bit. And what do I gain? Notting, not for the job I created her.
However, the real problem lies in those builds that totally rely on strange stats for their survivability. My fishy zon forinstance has 1.6 k life simply because she's almost perfect stats wise. Whistans guard gave me max block for very little dex. Combine that with little str for items and most of my life comes from invested points.
With auto stats, someone would have screwed over the stats and I would life or damage and gain little to noting.
P.S. From what I know of Guild wars, I don't think it's comparable. Guild wars is really aimed towards party play with people you know, planning your builds. Diablo III should work just as good with random people.
Scudstorm
09-03-2009, 19:55
The problem is what could have been.
Hmm... look at it like that. Customization is provided by the following parameters in D2: Stats, skills, gear. Now in D3, customization is only provided by Skills and gear, but however, skills have very interesting interaction with your stats. Do you necessarily have less customization? I don't think so, it's just a very different system.
It's like what charms did to D2. Some think they're great, others think it ruined the game mechanics. Do charms make your char more customized? Hell yes. Are they necessary? Bof.
Now if Blizzard announces there would be no charms in D3 (I don't know if it's been done), would you argue similarly for them as you did with spendable stats?
Also, the base, fixed stats may be just a bare minimum, and you may get a great deal of customization through gear-provided stats. After all, naked persons don't fare well against monsters. But we needn't dig this point further since all would be based off speculation :)
P.S. From what I know of Guild wars, I don't think it's comparable. Guild wars is really aimed towards party play with people you know, planning your builds. Diablo III should work just as good with random people.
I know, and I called it "anti-thesis of D2" because they are very different games with very different playing mechanics. However, I was using the comparison merely to point out that you don't necessarily need stats points for customization, which is more or less my point on the first half of this post.
Knight_Wolf
09-03-2009, 20:42
Now it comes to mind ... being an artist myself the whole anit-respecs thing reminds me of the whole anti-digital art raving that was round when digital art started blooming and getting popular.
Many Traditional artists despised digital art just cause it allows you to quickly fix your mistakes and move on .... they considered it a heretic method and deemed it cheating (like anti-repsecs people do with respecs) ... but fact is .. digital drawing is the future .. yes traditional still has its value .. but digital art is much better and isn't in anyway cheating.
How many marvelous drawings can you make using digital methods .. hundreds per year ... how many per traditional methods .. a few ... which method allows you to experiment more and try different things without wasting time or money .. digital art .. which method allows for things that only very few artists can do .. digital art.
It opens the doors wide for experimentation without any worries or wastes .. and it is far more productive and accessible ... so are respecs ... they allow for lots of experimentation on the fly without wasting any time or effort ... in traditional painting one mistake and you have to spend minutes if not hours painting it over or even repaint the whole painting again just to change the colors in some part .. with digital painting .. it only takes few seconds to fix any mistakes ... and then you can move on to creating more art.
---------------------------------------------------
And nice posts "Scudstorm" ^_^
AxlStrife
09-03-2009, 21:21
I don't expect a cakewalk. That's not the point.
The point is, how are you going to keep me from being one-hitted. note that your tactic doesn't work as the lightning attacks are piecing. Side stepping one lightning attack is possible yet side stepping 3 or 4 is almost impossible.
So I understand correct, you except the existence of some monsters that can one hit some characters?
If you're running around hell with about 500 life and low resistances, then you're begging to be 1-2 hit by a random dude. If I were a game designer I wouldn't weaken an enemy just because someone's goofy build can't handle it. It's not my job to stop faulty characters from being 1-2-hitted, but it is also not right to have to resort to a 1-2 hitter in order to "even the playing field" against overpowered builds.
To answer your question, I do expect the existance of a monster or some monsters that can 1-2 hit poorly built characters IF manual stats would be implemented.
Well hes got a good point, how do you give challenge to a sorc type character that can 1 shot enemies? By lowering enemies damage to prevent 1 shot your basically beefing the life up of the glass cannon, what can you do to a tank? Give it even more life? :whistling:
And what about summoners? Seems like it would be really really boring if you dont even have to bother dodging because the enemies are so weak.
The players aren't supposed to one shot enemies either. They've been given more hit points to make fights last longer. They also do real damage now, without being 1-hit-kills.
Your Mohammad Ali analogy is clever, but ultimately flawed. You describe fighting a monster that's several levels higher than you. Of course you're going to die, but the point is that you work your way up to fighting the Champ. Meanwhile, if you fight 1-hit-kill enemies that are supposed to be your level, it's the fist vs. gun thing again.
Have you seen the Blizzcon B-Roll? Watch it. It's the only Real gameplay footage we have. You'll see that the fights are more involved than in D2. You can see it at Gamevideos.com
TheMadHatter
10-03-2009, 00:28
There sure are a lot of Blizzard apologists on these boards. Just because Blizzard is doing it a certain way, does not mean it's right.
As a long time D1 and D2 player, the original poster is %100 on the mark. The idea to have all builds predetermined is horrendous. Talk about killing re-playability.
Smaller parties? No PKs? Oh, I didn't PK before, but it did add an interesting element to the game. PKing was just implemented poorly. I was asking for an arena back in D2 ver 1.03.
Sometimes designers make changes just for the sake of making changes. So they can just be different than before and give things their own stamp. Sometimes they change things so they work more easily into the current (WoW) engine. Not sure which, but it seems a lot of the decisions made for this game were done for one of those two reasons, even though it was detrimental to the overall series.
At least they fixed the drops, kind of like WoW. In fact, this game is very, very similar to WoW and I fear it will not have the dark descending into Hell factor D1 had nor the great story line D2 had. Nor the re-playability of either game.
I'm sure the game will be fun to play, especially to those coming from WoW or who never played D1 or D2. But to the veterans, this game is looking disappointing.
A diablo with higher hp monsters would be lame, I really hope thats not true..
Just go watch the B-roll. Gamevideos.com Search for Blizzcon B-roll
Scudstorm
10-03-2009, 01:33
The idea to have all builds predetermined is horrendous. Talk about killing re-playability.
No one is predetermining your build, only the stat points. And people have done a few pages of arguments over this point in this thread, you may want to consult them. Stat points are also not what's giving D2 re-playability, since 99% of bnet chars go for str for equip, no dex or dex for block, then all vita.
I'm sure the game will be fun to play, especially to those coming from WoW or who never played D1 or D2. But to the veterans, this game is looking disappointing.
Please do not generalize. Are you speaking from the experience of one veteran (ie yourself), a few veterans, or all the veterans?
Srikandi
10-03-2009, 07:05
There sure are a lot of Blizzard apologists on these boards. Just because Blizzard is doing it a certain way, does not mean it's right.
Then there are the Blizzard apologists who think that just because Blizzard did it a certain way in D2 means it was right ;)
Maintaining that any deviation from D2 is a fall from grace pretty much lands you in the same category.
Putting aside all these ideological arguments, the only reasonable position on the auto-stats thing is "we can't possibly know whether we're gaining or losing customizability overall until we know in some detail about every other factor that affects combat outcomes". Which we are far from knowing at the moment.
SlechtWeerBeer
10-03-2009, 12:35
Sometimes designers make changes just for the sake of making changes. So they can just be different than before and give things their own stamp. Sometimes they change things so they work more easily into the current (WoW) engine. Not sure which, but it seems a lot of the decisions made for this game were done for one of those two reasons, even though it was detrimental to the overall series.
I pray that you don't mean a game-engine when you say "(WoW) engine", because D III doesn't use the WoW engine. Besides, a game-engine is nigh always altered to suit the game, not vice versa.
Just go watch the B-roll. Gamevideos.com Search for Blizzcon B-roll
exactly what video are you referring too? It doesn't really show up I think.
I guess it's gone. Good thing I downloaded when I did.
Here it is on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0w5UBaQ00s0
I'm surprised you don't know about it. It's the only real gameplay we've seen.
Edit: and here's a nice video of 2 barbs and 2 wizards, including an AWESOME encounter with an Unburied: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCeDjT3T_MI#
Kiroptus
10-03-2009, 17:17
My favourite is this one: http://g4tv.com/xplay/videos/35729/All_Access_Preview_Diablo_III.html
tho is from G4, seeing lots of fire mongrels in their glory just makes my day.
Its all very fast paced as well. I just recommend turning the sound off so you dont have to hear all the uninformed BS that the announcers say, specially about "auto-assigning skills".
It's still there Grug: http://gamevideos.1up.com/video/id/22069
and some other vids
http://www.1up.com/do/gameOverview?cId=3138257&type=game&sec=VIDEOS
The players aren't supposed to one shot enemies either. They've been given more hit points to make fights last longer. They also do real damage now, without being 1-hit-kills.
Naw, those are like beta videos; theres no way theres gonna be that few of enemies. The largest group I saw at once was like 6.. D2's act 1 has more enemies than that...
If it does end out like that than diablo 3 has more problems than I thought :p
But I have faith that they can at least get that right, especially when you hear of the interviews talk about slaughtering screenfull of enemies.
Auto Stats
I know this might be beating a dead horse but isn't auto-stats a wonderful thing? Since now I won't have to wait until level 75 to finally start using some gear. Please don't respond with something saying torches/annis . . . blah blah blah are being removed, since D3 is going to have stat boosting equipment the argument still holds.
You could potentially remove stat restrictions and only have level restrictions on items to overcome this, but this seems unrealistic and foolish.
Other Thoughts
I'm not really sure how to word this next part accurately but I hope people understand or even agree with me.
I felt the original Diablo had beautiful graphics for it's time. This really drew you into the environment. However, with D2 I felt they were just redone D1 graphics with a ton of added gameplay features. On the other hand, D3 looks to have surreal graphics that should really enhance the gaming experience.
During playing D2 I never got completely absorbed into the environment like I did with D1. From the darker side to the "relatively" more advanced graphics D2 never captured the exact "feel" I expected. Don't get me wrong it was a great game but was always lacking something.
Hopefully D3 can bring back that reminiscent "wow" factor that I got during my first killing of a D1 Balrog (one of the coolest animations). The videos do look very promising.
Can't wait for this game.
AxlStrife
12-03-2009, 06:29
Auto Stats
I know this might be beating a dead horse but isn't auto-stats a wonderful thing? Since now I won't have to wait until level 75 to finally start using some gear. Please don't respond with something saying torches/annis . . . blah blah blah are being removed, since D3 is going to have stat boosting equipment the argument still holds.
You could potentially remove stat restrictions and only have level restrictions on items to overcome this, but this seems unrealistic and foolish.
Blizzard already established that there will be no stat requirement on gear at this time.
Other Thoughts
I'm not really sure how to word this next part accurately but I hope people understand or even agree with me.
I felt the original Diablo had beautiful graphics for it's time. This really drew you into the environment. However, with D2 I felt they were just redone D1 graphics with a ton of added gameplay features. On the other hand, D3 looks to have surreal graphics that should really enhance the gaming experience.
During playing D2 I never got completely absorbed into the environment like I did with D1. From the darker side to the "relatively" more advanced graphics D2 never captured the exact "feel" I expected. Don't get me wrong it was a great game but was always lacking something.
Hopefully D3 can bring back that reminiscent "wow" factor that I got during my first killing of a D1 Balrog (one of the coolest animations). The videos do look very promising.
Can't wait for this game.
No comment.
vBulletin® v3.8.4, Copyright ©2000-2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.