View Full Version : Hirelings
Whilst browsing through the Forum, I found there is a SEVERE lack of information on the Diablo 3 Hirelings.
In the game play video, we can clearly see the Barbarian rescue two hirelings by Cain (The one falling victim to a World Event, the another being squashed in a brilliant example of horrific AI)
Now - The barbarian had two hirelings (As opposed to Diablo 2's Limit on 1), and never equipped them with anything - This brings up a multitude of questions:
1.) How many hirelings can you have at a time (If they don't commit suicide) ?
2.) Are these "Rescuable" Hirelings different from purchasable Hirelings?
3.) Can you equip Hirelings?
4.) Will Ranged Hirelings continue to attempt close-combat with bosses, or will the AI be improved?
Discuss! :)
SlechtWeerBeer
06-03-2009, 14:39
1 through 4: Noone knows, I bet.
I doubt hirelings such as the archers can be equipped, and I don't think we'll get D2-esque purchasable mercs.
AI will hopefully be improved, but wouldn't matter much since they seem to instantly explode anyways.
1 through 4: Noone knows, I bet.
No-one knows a lot - It's just interesting too see peoples opinion of hirelings - And possibly to why they have been rather disregarded in this Forum? Am I the only guy who enjoyed my D2 Hireling? :)
I don't think we'll get D2-esque purchasable mercs.
:/
AI will hopefully be improved, but wouldn't matter much since they seem to instantly explode anyways.
Well, the first Archer WAS killed by a wall falling on him, and didn't really have much choice.
I think the second archer was a victim of balancing issues (Notice the difference in damage before / after the Barbarian picked up that epic flaming maul?) - For awhile both archers were shooting a Zombie - Approximately 7 shots, and the zombie didn't die. Even with the barbarians starting weapon (Approx 5-10x weaker than the maul) he could annihilate zombies rather fast (The maul was over-powered - 100 Damage+, the Witch-Doctors Zombie-Wall tool-tip dealing vastly less) - So I think the lowly archer was lacking any vital skills (Most likely 1-1 Damage, 1hp, or some such)
That's my opinion ;p
Now - The barbarian had two hirelings (As opposed to Diablo 2's Limit on 1), and never equipped them with anything - This brings up a multitude of questions:
They weren't hirelings, they were 2 NPC's you got to help you with rescue cain.
We'll probably see these kind of quests more.
I doubt we get hirelings this time and I hope so, in D2 they take away the lonely hero aspect from the player. A merc that can freeze all monsters and offer huge mana regen and remove resistances.. yeah makes you look kinda sucky you can just kill them :)
In the gameplay video everything was set up.. it wasnt the real game environment.. it was show off. The characters were overpowered there.. 1-2 hits everything dead.
Knight_Wolf
06-03-2009, 16:24
I doubt we get hirelings this time and I hope so
Many are certain (or at least wishing) There will be hirelings ... and there is no reason to assume otherwise, i just hope they are less overpowered and fully customizable.
in D2 they take away the lonely hero aspect from the player. A merc that can freeze all monsters and offer huge mana regen and remove resistances.. yeah makes you look kinda sucky you can just kill them :)
If you don't like Hirelings (i.e cause they remove your so called "lonely hero" thing) don't hire them ... other people enjoy the SP with hirelings fighting side by side with them as side-kicks .. most heroes in heroic tales have some sort of helper or side-kick .. it's a feeling that many people enjoy ... so thinking that taking away hirelings is a good thing isn't really subjective.
Besides .. you can't shower your merc with potions any more ... so it will be much harder to keep them alive XD
And i just don't know why do you assume the hirelings in D3 will be a carbon copy of those in D2 .. i really don't get it !!!?
In the gameplay video everything was set up.. it wasnt the real game environment.. it was show off. The characters were overpowered there.. 1-2 hits everything dead.
More of a reason to have hirelings in the final game, an extra hand is always welcome when the stakes are high XD
Besides .. not all people can play online .. they should be able to get a similar feeling in SP by allowing them to hire mercs and hirelings to form a small party of 2 or 3 fighters.
I liked having a merc just because I got lonely. It's maddening fighting the hordes without a friend.
They weren't hirelings, they were 2 NPC's you got to help you with rescue cain.
I agree. I thought of them more as the Barbarians wandering around the bloody foothills in Act V of D2. They are allies, but they aren't your personal mercs. Though these ones at least seemed to stay close to you in battle as opposed to wandering in a more or less straight line like the barbs.
Barb actually sort of hired them after clearing space around Cain, their icons were wisible in the corner of the screen. To Me they were working similar to D2c mercs.
Now I remember the word.. they were companions explained by the devs iirc. You can accept their company for quests and such.
Besides .. not all people can play online .. they should be able to get a similar feeling in SP by allowing them to hire mercs and hirelings to form a small party of 2 or 3 fighters. Ok I agree but in multiplayer we really shouldn't have those.. Or maybe yes but like they are in D2 Classic.
If you don't like Hirelings (i.e cause they remove your so called "lonely hero" thing) don't hire them . Yes I don't hire them because I play in Classic which is by default a lot harder just because there are no hirelings to make the game slower for the slower :)
teh_Thrasher
07-03-2009, 06:10
d2x mercs were over powered. well act2 mercs... which basically was all that anyone used.
the ones in the d3 wwi video were funnier. cause they totally got owned. and werent super human. i like that. only my character should super human :P
Knight_Wolf
07-03-2009, 08:22
d2x mercs were over powered. well act2 mercs... which basically was all that anyone used.
the ones in the d3 wwi video were funnier. cause they totally got owned. and werent super human. i like that. only my character should super human :P
Amen to that ^_^
The only thing that should enable your mercs to survive is how good the items you give them and how much you are good at protecting them when they get swarmed.
Bladewind
07-03-2009, 08:45
d2x mercs were over powered. well act2 mercs... which basically was all that anyone used.
Correction all 4 were used. But only Act 1 and Act 2 mercs were popular. Act 3 mercs were bleh and Act4 mercs are just more aggressive (aka more stupid) variant of act 2 mercs.
Act2 mercs and Act4 mercs plus melee characters die way too often in Chaos Sanctuary. :p
Brother Laz
07-03-2009, 12:54
If you don't like Hirelings (i.e cause they remove your so called "lonely hero" thing) don't hire them ...
Let's put in a skill that kills every monster in the game and drops the best items in front of you. If you don't like it, don't use it...
The problem with hirelings is not so much the lonely hero thing as the fact that they are just a stat check. You know when to dodge, when to tank, when to heal. A merc, even a smart one, will just do the same thing over and over or do something random.
This means when the game gets harder, your merc will chain die. This can (only) be fixed with better items. Your merc vs. the monsters and whoever has higher stats wins.
And if your merc wins, you are safe: the monsters pile on your merc and ignore you. (Even more so with ridiculous auras like in D2) Great, the monsters are not attacking you! Woot, what a challenge. So much fun!
......
I'd like it if (non-hireable) mercs are there, but just to run into the meat grinder and die. This would add to the atmosphere. But it is a slippery slope: remember early LoD when people farmed the Foothills because of the barbs there who tanked monsters for just long enough to firewall them.
Knight_Wolf
07-03-2009, 16:02
Let's put in a skill that kills every monster in the game and drops the best items in front of you. If you don't like it, don't use it...
Yeah .. yeah ... and also let's remove all items from the game .. and remove all skills .. woah .. now that's L337 and challenging ............. SERIOUSLY !!! ... your exaggeration is hilarious and pointless to this discussion.
And if your merc wins, you are safe: the monsters pile on your merc and ignore you. (Even more so with ridiculous auras like in D2) Great, the monsters are not attacking you! Woot, what a challenge. So much fun!
Yeah ... it is fun .. happy now. :nod:
I'd like it if (non-hireable) mercs are there, but just to run into the meat grinder and die. This would add to the atmosphere. But it is a slippery slope: remember early LoD when people farmed the Foothills because of the barbs there who tanked monsters for just long enough to firewall them.
If you read the topic you would have realized nobody advocated having mercs who are carbon copies from D2 mercs .. so stop using these useless comparisons ... the mercs in D3 will definitely be different and more balanced (which was the problem of D2) ... oh .. and hireable too XD
BelushiEightyOneX
07-03-2009, 16:08
I liked the D2x mercs... I mostly did Single player, tho.
I think that the Act 2 mercs were probably overpowered highest damage output + auras... if you chopped down their damage or removed the auras...
What I really want to see is ballancing of mercs to where everyone doesn't run around with the same merc...
teh_Thrasher
08-03-2009, 04:47
act 2 mercs shouldnt have auras at all... it makes NO sense... the auras are a physical representations of a paladins faith.. not some desert soldier... pfft i dont remember greiz ever mentioning anything about them praying it alah at 5 every night as the sun sets... i DO recall fara saying she was a deciple of zakarum... wheres HER aura!?
OH and uh they use spears not polearms.. why can they use polearms? u dont really poke with a polearm.. u kinda slash in an overhead arch. no polearms = dead... cause there are NO spear runewords... like wtf is with that!? (sure all weapon rws work, but no just spear ones)
Srikandi
08-03-2009, 06:51
act 2 mercs shouldnt have auras at all... it makes NO sense... the auras are a physical representations of a paladins faith.. not some desert soldier... pfft i dont remember greiz ever mentioning anything about them praying it alah at 5 every night as the sun sets... i DO recall fara saying she was a deciple of zakarum... wheres HER aura!?
Why can't desert soldiers have faith? :O And does the player Paladin pray at sunset? And since when does Zakarum = Islam? lol
The player char classes like Paladin are all treated in the game as CLASSES... that is... the player isn't supposed to be the only member of the category in the world. Makes perfect sense you should be able to meet other pallies.
This assumption that mercs have to be basically nonentities with no story or agenda of their own strikes me as odd. Just cause the game doesn't go into it, doesn't mean they don't have their own motives ;)
Ok, I'm not saying Hirelings must be the same strength as you - Not even half as much so. I'm just saying that hirelings should be more "In Depth" than the Diablo 2 Hirelings. Why couldn't D2 hirelings use other slots - Rings / Amulets / Boots / Etc? I think the main reason is that'd make them too powerful. So, then, if they're too powerful, make them cost more! Simple :)
If the Hirelings are to remain "Companions" - Then what's going to happen if you actually look after them, and keep them alive?
Take the following Situation:
In D2, Act 1, Kashya offered 10 Rogue Hirelings at a time. If all 10 went at once (Even without the player), equipped some of Charsi's equipment, then they could easily solo Act 1 :)
Now - Is this saying the game was too easy, or the hirelings were too good?
Say, in D3, you could hire up to 5 of these Archer Companions at once, but each cost 10k - The question is: Would you? You'd have a veritable army of weaklings to follow you, but that'd actually be able to DO something (Albeit die extremely easily) - But, due to their cost, would make the player want to keep them alive - Actually even care for them - Make them a part of the game, and a part of his playing style.
Take situation 2 - Each of these companions could be fully equippable (Helm, Gloves, Boots, Etc), but cost 50k Each (Max 1 or 2) - Would you still hire one? If he dies the penalty is a LOT higher, but he can help the player a lot more? Maybe even pay gold per equippable slot - You've spent 50k so he can wear boots, 100k so he can wear rings, 50k so he can wear an amulet, and 50k so he can wear gloves - You've now spent alot to make the companion stronger, you'd want him to live longer (So you don't have to spend another 50k to resurrect him) and look out for him more.
Knight_Wolf
08-03-2009, 18:22
Ok, I'm not saying Hirelings must be the same strength as you - Not even half as much so. I'm just saying that hirelings should be more "In Depth" than the Diablo 2 Hirelings. Why couldn't D2 hirelings use other slots - Rings / Amulets / Boots / Etc? I think the main reason is that'd make them too powerful. So, then, if they're too powerful, make them cost more! Simple :)
If the Hirelings are to remain "Companions" - Then what's going to happen if you actually look after them, and keep them alive?
Take the following Situation:
In D2, Act 1, Kashya offered 10 Rogue Hirelings at a time. If all 10 went at once (Even without the player), equipped some of Charsi's equipment, then they could easily solo Act 1 :)
Now - Is this saying the game was too easy, or the hirelings were too good?
Say, in D3, you could hire up to 5 of these Archer Companions at once, but each cost 10k - The question is: Would you? You'd have a veritable army of weaklings to follow you, but that'd actually be able to DO something (Albeit die extremely easily) - But, due to their cost, would make the player want to keep them alive - Actually even care for them - Make them a part of the game, and a part of his playing style.
Take situation 2 - Each of these companions could be fully equippable (Helm, Gloves, Boots, Etc), but cost 50k Each (Max 1 or 2) - Would you still hire one? If he dies the penalty is a LOT higher, but he can help the player a lot more? Maybe even pay gold per equippable slot - You've spent 50k so he can wear boots, 100k so he can wear rings, 50k so he can wear an amulet, and 50k so he can wear gloves - You've now spent alot to make the companion stronger, you'd want him to live longer (So you don't have to spend another 50k to resurrect him) and look out for him more.
Very nice idea, it needs some refining but it could make things more interesting and add a nice gold sink.
Raging_Zealot
08-03-2009, 22:34
I wonder if we'll see some sort of payment over time or for deeds done system in place of the D2 "lump sum up front" method.
I do agree that mercs add fun for many players, and also that they were over powered in D2 (at least when equipped with overpowered items which everyone seemed to have an abundance of..) So, if they exist in D3, they will have to be balanced much better. I would think the team would try to make them still be equipable/lvlable since that adds more customization, and they seem to be all about that, but it is possible that would make them too powerful. Also possible the archers we saw in the game play video that got slaughtered were companions which are different (less powerful, not equipable, free) than mercenaries which still could appear in a different capacity.
Brother Laz
08-03-2009, 23:23
It is not possible to 'balance' mercs because they cannot be controlled, unless that got changed.
They'll just rush to the monsters and then you have to hope their stats are better than the monster's stats. Or if they are ranged, you have to hope they do run away when approached.
So either mercs die all the time with bad gear, or they are godly with uber gear. There is not much you can do as a player to help them survive, other than potion spam.
If mercs come back, we desperately need a way to control them so player skill makes a difference, not just how much leech they have.
If mercs come back, we desperately need a way to control them so player skill makes a difference, not just how much leech they have.
Have you played guildwars? Good aggro management via pets was (at least when I was playing, AI update since then is pretty likely) really pretty skillful, a question of careful movement, taking advantage of scenery and a very good understanding of pet and enemy AI.
The key to balancing them is to make them 'faint' rather than die as is often the case in many games like dungeon siege; they are disabled until the end of a battle but can be ressed at no, or very minor, penalty when combat stops, more serious deaths only being incurred if the player runs away from them or dies as well. And to go with that make them weak enough that they can't be relied upon, short of the player going out of their way to keep them alive.
Doctor Salvador
09-03-2009, 00:35
If mercs come back, we desperately need a way to control them so player skill makes a difference, not just how much leech they have.
I would be happy if we could give them commands, even if they were just simple ones. Telling them to do things like fight defensively near you, fight offensively, protect this, attack that. Just having the ability to command a pet or merc to attack a target would be a tremendous help, especially when it comes to shamans and the like.
I would be happy if we could give them commands, even if they were just simple ones. Telling them to do things like fight defensively near you, fight offensively, protect this, attack that
Indeed! Awesome for killing shamans, and fantastic for ranged mercs who have a habit of fighting close-range :)
Bladewind
09-03-2009, 07:34
Should give us a command where you want the merc to run into mobs without care. Who cares about the merc if you are a summoner. He will help but it is not like you can't do without him. ;)
If you're a summoner, the merc can distract the mobs, whilst your other summons kill them ;)
teh_Thrasher
09-03-2009, 08:43
if ur a summoner u can fall asleep playing ;)
lol summoners are kinda junk. =\
i dont want to see a return of a merc that everyone uses. i want to see varied mercs that people will use because they have an item that would work well on them... not because they have an aura that slows everything even if its immune to cold. or just ones that are there for comical relief "Stay away from the wall!" CRUSH! haha great stuff :P
Knight_Wolf
09-03-2009, 08:50
It is not possible to 'balance' mercs because they cannot be controlled, unless that got changed.
They'll just rush to the monsters and then you have to hope their stats are better than the monster's stats. Or if they are ranged, you have to hope they do run away when approached.
So either mercs die all the time with bad gear, or they are godly with uber gear. There is not much you can do as a player to help them survive, other than potion spam.
Why make such weird extreme assumptions .. why only black or white !!!?, anything can be balanced if it gets the right values and tweaking ... there is no reason to assume mercs can't be balanced.
You can protect you mercs by killing any monsters that swarm them (i.e cover each other's back) and giving them good gear (not the best you have cause that's what you would be wearing XD) ... if Blizz tweaked the abilities, HP and speed of mercs right then it is all that's left to make sure they aren't overpowered or too weak.
I would be happy if we could give them commands, even if they were just simple ones. Telling them to do things like fight defensively near you, fight offensively, protect this, attack that. Just having the ability to command a pet or merc to attack a target would be a tremendous help, especially when it comes to shamans and the like.
It's actually better to give simple AI patterns that the player can set .. kinda like FF12 ... when you are in control of one of your characters the other 2 act and react depending on the AI modules you gave them.
Examples:
-Attack -> attack enemy nearest to you
-Attack -> attack enemy nearest to me
-Attack -> attack farthest enemies
-Defense -> flee if health below 40%
-Defense -> use potion if health below 20%
.. etc etc
let's say some mercs can have 2 slots for AI modules one slot for Attacking AI and the other for Defense AI and we have many modules to use in those 2 slots ... it will make mercs more interesting.
It really works very nicely in FF12 .. makes combat more flawless (instead of pausing mid-combat to give orders) and also makes player skill count (in both setting the AI modules right and in how to play in a way the complements the AI modules your merc has)
bachelorduke
10-03-2009, 22:35
Here's the thing though, if you're going to have hirelings at all, don't make it so you have to babysit them constantly. That means a certain amount of durability at least. Gimp their offense all you want, but don't make them death animations on loop. Because the folks who want hirelings will try to use them anyway and just suffer a lot.
teh_Thrasher
11-03-2009, 02:54
meh ive been playing some classic d2. its nice having mercs that are insane ownage. it makes things a tad more challenging and it requires u to be better or work better with ur allies. and not sit behind ur merc as it owns with ridiculous jab with a polearm....
Huh? Mercs are basically garbage in d2c. iirc don't even travel between acts and can't be equipped with items.
BelushiEightyOneX
12-03-2009, 04:39
Examples:
-Attack -> attack enemy nearest to you
-Attack -> attack enemy nearest to me
-Attack -> attack farthest enemies
-Defense -> flee if health below 40%
-Defense -> use potion if health below 20%
.. etc etc
Sounds a bit like gambits from FFXII...
^^^ Lol that's exactly what Knight_wolf is talking about.
teh_Thrasher
13-03-2009, 06:03
oops i meant arent. my bad. sorry for the confusion there.
id rather see my merc die cause hes a big nub from the desert and not complete ownage.
mercs arent supposed to do all the dmg or tank all the dmg... they are like sidekicks. kinda there for comic relief.
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