Max block enchantress question

[Norrit]

Hi everyone

i'm making a chantress and I plan on having max block/res using guardian angel (love that armor for max block) but i'm having trouble deciding which shield to use. I currently have a perf stormshield (self found) lying around on one of my mules, and also a "Sanctuary" Troll nest. My question is, which shield would require less dexterity invested to reach max block? Assume my character level will be 90 for purposes of this calculation.

Any help/info will be greatly appreciated, I tried to use a block calculator but got all confused and some weird results :(

[sirpoopsalot]

I'm not sure what calculator you used, but I find this one (http://www.baronsbazaar.invisionzone.com/ppr/block_calc.html) to be very straight forward.

Personally though, I didn't like max-block/Stormshield on any of my sorcs - the combined Str & Dex costs were so high that I felt my life supply was insufficient.

[Norrit]

I'm not sure what calculator you used, but I find this one (http://www.baronsbazaar.invisionzone.com/ppr/block_calc.html) to be very straight forward.

Personally though, I didn't like max-block/Stormshield on any of my sorcs - the combined Str & Dex costs were so high that I felt my life supply was insufficient.

that's the one I used but I couldnt figure out what to put on the "Total + to Blocking %" field. what do I put there, only increased chance of blocking? or fast block rate counts as well? do I add up with it the base shield blocking as well? (guessing no cuz there's a field for that just above).

so you recommend sanctuary huh? well it looks good, makes it easier to get those max resists. as for the str for Ss, I have plenty of gear with +str (fire ammy with over+20, good anni/torch, str fire gcs etc) so I guess I'd be fine with it.

[sirpoopsalot]

The "base shield blocking %" is the "base shield blocking %". This is the foundation % without any other modifications or considerations taken in (except for socketing an Eld into the shield - that works on this number). Stick the shield in your inventory and hover the mouse over it (in the inventory, not in the character summary screen) - the percentage that's shown is what you seek.

The "Total + Blocking %" field is anything else that increases your blocking % - such as the +20% Increased Chance Of Blocking you find on Guardian Angel.

Faster Block Rate does the same thing for your blocking % as +light radius equipment does. That is to say... it does nothing to boost your blocking %. However, sorcs are pretty slow at blocking, so it's not a bad thing to have some FBR too.


As for stormshield, a lot of folks think the +35% damage reduction is great. And it is - on paper. But I find that even with that bonus my sorcs are usually still too fragile to tank reliably - and if they're still too fragile with that 35% PDR in effect, then it isn't really adding much to benefit me in the end. Throw on the +str cost, and it just doesn't seem like a good sorc-shield to me.

[Norrit]

The "base shield blocking %" is the "base shield blocking %". This is the foundation % without any other modifications or considerations taken in (except for socketing an Eld into the shield - that works on this number). Stick the shield in your inventory and hover the mouse over it (in the inventory, not in the character summary screen) - the percentage that's shown is what you seek.

The "Total + Blocking %" field is anything else that increases your blocking % - such as the +20% Increased Chance Of Blocking you find on Guardian Angel.

Faster Block Rate does the same thing for your blocking % as +light radius equipment does. That is to say... it does nothing to boost your blocking %. However, sorcs are pretty slow at blocking, so it's not a bad thing to have some FBR too.


As for stormshield, a lot of folks think the +35% damage reduction is great. And it is - on paper. But I find that even with that bonus my sorcs are usually still too fragile to tank reliably - and if they're still too fragile with that 35% PDR in effect, then it isn't really adding much to benefit me in the end. Throw on the +str cost, and it just doesn't seem like a good sorc-shield to me.

Ok now that calculator makes a lot more sense ;)

About the Stormshield, I was thinking of using it alongside string of ears to get 50% (max) dr easily. I figured that 50% dr plus 90 all resists = good tanking capabilities (you just said it's not, so i'll take your word for it since you seem to have a little more insight on the matter than I do). I'll take the sanctuary instead and save lots of points for vita instead. Ty very much for your advice :)

[DH Amazon]

As for stormshield, a lot of folks think the +35% damage reduction is great. And it is - on paper. But I find that even with that bonus my sorcs are usually still too fragile to tank reliably - and if they're still too fragile with that 35% PDR in effect, then it isn't really adding much to benefit me in the end. Throw on the +str cost, and it just doesn't seem like a good sorc-shield to me.

I like stormshield with my enchant sorcs. I use spirit anyway for nice tele speed/enchant boost. So no extra str cost for me.
Without GA, I usually end around 200-220 dex to get max block, still gives around 1300-1500 life with good charms. Good anni+torch helps here a lot.
I use Thunderbelt anyway, so I have 130str anyway, quite close to 156str anyway. With shako, its 45% damage reduced and huge life, tanks nicely enough.

With GA, you need around 150...170dex, but at least 136 dex is quite safe to aim, as you probably use phase blades anyway. After 136, just look your blocking in stats screen, and add while you lvl.

I usually use Reaper's Toll (Blackhorn+Threachery) merc with enchant sorcs, then tanking is not problem when monster are decrepify cursed, as they do only 20-25% (are both slowed and do half damage) damage. Or even less damage, as its holy freeze merc.

Never used/made Sanctuary shield, but looks good choice too.

[Norrit]

i'm considering an act 2 merc (holy freeze) with eth reapers/eth kiras/eth ga. I like the idea of slowing down monsters (not to mention bosses) to a crawl. I dunno about treachery, is it that good? fade seems nice, never considered it before on a merc. is the IAS really needed?

[DH Amazon]

i'm considering an act 2 merc (holy freeze) with eth reapers/eth kiras/eth ga. I like the idea of slowing down monsters (not to mention bosses) to a crawl. I dunno about treachery, is it that good? fade seems nice, never considered it before on a merc. is the IAS really needed?

Enchanted merc does huge damage, so extra speed don't hurt.

I use black helmet, so merc is immune too against souls. One less problem.
And gives max light resist for merc, those other resist I have time to wait until fade triggers (takes usually 10-30s).

When fade triggers, gives 15% damage reduced for merc and clear cursed much faster too. Amp curse is so common in hell, so helps merc to stay alive.

With thresher, breakpoints for merc are 22 42 75ias, so threachery alone gives that 42. And 2x ias jools gives nicely that 75.

Merc needs speed too, gives Decrepify curse faster and does around 50% more damage while hitting more often. Downside is that merc kills faster than sorc (but luckily not bosses, so some job for sorc too :crazyeyes:)

edit: And gives poison damage for merc too, so he can stop monsters life regeration too, helps a lot in full games. And that venom helps a little against immunes.

[renegademaster]

I used a Whitsans Guard, becuase it has the best % chance to block, hence saves you points in Dex. You may not need it if you use Guardian Angel however.

[Norrit]

I used a Whitsans Guard, becuase it has the best % chance to block, hence saves you points in Dex. You may not need it if you use Guardian Angel however.

yeah thought about that, but it's hard to acheive max res by using whistans unless I decide to wear a coh/maras. most shields come with easy bonuses to all resists, and while the max block could be acheived with less dex, i'd rather be on the safe side by maxing my resists asap.

[sirpoopsalot]

Upgraded Moser's Blessed Circle then? Stick a couple of PDiamonds in it and you have some 63 resists, and the block% is pretty decent too (57% not upgraded, 65% upgraded). Definitely cheap to trade for too.

[rickster]

Upgraded Moser's Blessed Circle then? Stick a couple of PDiamonds in it and you have some 63 resists, and the block% is pretty decent too (57% not upgraded, 65% upgraded). Definitely cheap to trade for too.

I was going to say that too, but doesn't sanctuary have better stats?

[sirpoopsalot]

It depends on the roll. Sanctuary has 50-70 resists, and has slightly slower blocking. But it does come with 20 FHR and +20 dexterity, so the blocking % is probably a touch higher (effectively).

So they're pretty close, with the resistance roll (and possibly cost) being the biggest factor on which is better, in my opinion.


Also, it seems to me that the base shield you make it in might matter. I made my Sanctuary in a Tower Shield for the low requirements, but being a "heavy" shield it's more cumbersome when running around town.

[Norrit]

It depends on the roll. Sanctuary has 50-70 resists, and has slightly slower blocking. But it does come with 20 FHR and +20 dexterity, so the blocking % is probably a touch higher (effectively).

So they're pretty close, with the resistance roll (and possibly cost) being the biggest factor on which is better, in my opinion.


Also, it seems to me that the base shield you make it in might matter. I made my Sanctuary in a Tower Shield for the low requirements, but being a "heavy" shield it's more cumbersome when running around town.

well the only reason i'm considering sanctuary troll nest is because I already have it (leftover from a friend who stopped playing ladder, it's a 67 resists roll btw). I do like the 20% fhr tho, and more dex means a bit more AR ;). Right now my only concern is the weapon switch/boots. I was fortunate enough to find a sorc orb with +2 sorc skills, +3 enchant. so what shield do I pair it with? lidless seem to be a good choice.

as for the boots, since my str is so high, I dont feel like i'm getting a huge boost from say, wartravs. would treks be better (more fhr)? or maybe waterwalks for extra dex/life? idk which way to go, so many options... :D

[rickster]

Right now my only concern is the weapon switch/boots. I was fortunate enough to find a sorc orb with +2 sorc skills, +3 enchant. so what shield do I pair it with? lidless seem to be a good choice.
You're only using it to buff your enchant, right? Lidless is good, so is Visceratuant, and so is splendor runeword. If you got the 156 strength for a monarch shield, go with spirit for the +2 skills. You could also put spirit in an eth monarch and it will only be 141 strength (i think).

as for the boots, since my str is so high, I dont feel like i'm getting a huge boost from say, wartravs. would treks be better (more fhr)? or maybe waterwalks for extra dex/life? idk which way to go, so many options... :D

Treks and waterwalks are both good choices. War travs don't add much damage since you doing mostly fire damage. Don't forget IK boots (and paired with the gloves it's a solid combo).

Probably the best boots would be rares/crafted. Since you can get high resists, mana, fhr, dex and run/walk.

[DH Amazon]

You're only using it to buff your enchant, right? Lidless is good, so is Visceratuant, and so is splendor runeword. If you got the 156 strength for a monarch shield, go with spirit for the +2 skills. You could also put spirit in an eth monarch and it will only be 141 strength (i think).

Eth monarch is nice, gives -10str, so its 146 str req. And those last almost forever with sorc if using just for tele etc...

[rickster]

Eth monarch is nice, gives -10str, so its 146 str req. And those last almost forever with sorc if using just for tele etc...

IIRC, ethereal takes 10% off the requirements, so it's 15.6 subtracted from 156. I forget how the game rounds, so it's either 140 or 141. I believe the game always rounds up/down to screw you. So I think it's 141 strength required.

[renegademaster]

Good plan. You can also get a bit of a bonus to chance to block with a crafted Safety Amulet.

[DH Amazon]

IIRC, ethereal takes 10% off the requirements, so it's 15.6 subtracted from 156. I forget how the game rounds, so it's either 140 or 141. I believe the game always rounds up/down to screw you. So I think it's 141 strength required.

I am pretty sure that is 146, at least all that dropped for me are 146str. I might remember wrong too.
For example here eth monarch (http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=714673&highlight=ethereal+monarch) is 146str too.

Eth sacred armor is 222str (non eth 232), and eth ghost spear 112str (non eth 122 str). There -10str too, but need to check when next eth items drop, I might be wrong too.

For example uniq elite axe Ethreal Edge's requirements are 156str 55dex, its elite silver edged axe (req. 166str 65dex), so both req. are -10.

[sirpoopsalot]

Yep, ethereal subtracts 10 from Str and Dex requirements, not 10%.

Too bad though, 10% would be better most of the time.

[rickster]

Yep, ethereal subtracts 10 from Str and Dex requirements, not 10%.

Too bad though, 10% would be better most of the time.

Hah, all this time i thought it was 10% requirements reduced. Learn something new every day!

[Norrit]

sorry to "necro" the thread, but I have another question. Is max block acheivable at all using dual dreams and GA? or the dream shield (hyperion) will require too much dex to be even worth it?

[rickster]

sorry to "necro" the thread, but I have another question. Is max block acheivable at all using dual dreams and GA? or the dream shield (hyperion) will require too much dex to be even worth it?

Well it depends if you're doing pvp or pvm. In pvm you can get away with any build.

If you're doing pvp, you're actually not wasting stat points by dumping them into dex. Not only do you get max block, but you get a huge AR boost.

GA is only useful for the decrease in blocking rate. You go from 9 frames (which is bottom of the pack) to 6 which is middle of the pack. If you don't like dumping points into dex, twitchthroe is probably a better option. Not only do you get 5% more blocking, but you get 10 to str/dex, 20fhr, and 20ias.

If you do go choose GA, this would be the optimal build
Helm/Shield: dreams
belt: arach
amulet: 2 skill with 17fcr
rings: soj/raven
Armor: GA with 15ias 15 resist jewel
Gloves/boots: IK

With the IK boots and ravenfrost, you get a decent attack rating ~8k. However you lose a lot of mana when you don't use frost burns. You also lack a lot of resists with this build.

The optimal build is this, as it gives a high ar/mana/resists.

Helm/Shield: dreams
belt: arach
amulet: 2 skill with 17fcr, mana and resists
rings: soj/soj
Armor: jewelers armor of the whale with 3 15ias 15res jewels, and cham rune
gloves: frosties
boots: mana boots with fhr and dex and run/walk

http://i44.tinypic.com/118q3p4.jpg

if i were to use the GA build the only thing I gain is the faster block rate. Otherwise I lose ~200ar, ~350 mana, ~100 life, ~2k max damage, 30 to all resists.



The hyperion requires too much strength. For 52 more strength all you gain is 125 more defense(moreso if you use cold armors) and a 5% faster run rate over a tower shield. 5% faster run/walk 125+ defense vs ~275 mana.

[renegademaster]

The optimal build is this, as it gives a high ar/mana/resists.

Helm/Shield: dreams
belt: arach
amulet: 2 skill with 17fcr, mana and resists
rings: soj/soj
Armor: jewelers armor of the whale with 3 15ias 15res jewels, and cham rune
gloves: frosties
boots: mana boots with fhr and dex and run/walk

http://i44.tinypic.com/118q3p4.jpg

if i were to use the GA build the only thing I gain is the faster block rate. Otherwise I lose ~200ar, ~350 mana, ~100 life, ~2k max damage, 30 to all resists.


Thats a nice build? What are your skills
20 Lightning Mastery
20 Enchant
20 ES
20 TK
rest warmth?

The Tower Shield looks cool too!

Thats allot of Dex you have. Does the Block and Attack Rating make up for lost Mana?

Pity the Jewelers armour of the whale is so rare. Anyone know if you can shop it from Anya?

[rickster]

My skill build is

20 Lightning Mastery
20 Enchant
20 Telekinesis
15 Energy shield (i hit 95%es with memory)
1 Thunderstorm
7 Warmth
9 Fire mastery
(I’m going to explain the last 2)

At level 90 that leaves ~15 skill points. You can put them into put into cold armors, warmth, fire mastery, and thunderstorm.

Now I did a bit of math on this, and have tested this build out, and putting the rest into warmth isn't the only option. Putting your points into thunderstorm, or splitting them between warmth and fire mastery is just as viable.
math link (http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7009609&postcount=6)

Due to the way fire damage is calculated, splitting your points between warmth and fire mastery will give you more fire damage than if you were to dump all your points into one of the skills.

Right now I have 9 into fire mastery and 7 into warmth, which gives me more fire damage than 16 into fire mastery or 16 into warmth. Now warmth does give you more mana regen. But when I did the math, I only lose about 20 mana per second when I have 7 into warmth, as opposed to 16 into warmth.

My duels end pretty quickly since i either kill my opponent right away with my zeal, or I die trying to tele stomp my opponent. Though i'm no world class dueler. 16 into warmth only gives me 100-500 more mana regenerated over the course of the duel. That will save me from one weak attack. Now with 9 FM, 7 warmth, I do 20 more fire per attack which is 100 more damage per zeal (after penalties) at the expense of 100-500 mana regenerated.

If I were to dump all my points into thunderstorm, it would gain ~1k damage, which is about ~100 damage (after penalties) per 2-3 seconds if they're on your screen. But I would lose about 40 mana regen per second due to less points into warmth.

So taking those facts into consideration:
Max thunder storm would give me the most damage, but at the cost of mana regen.
Max warmth would give me the best mana regen, but at the cost of damage.
Splitting points between warmth and fire mastery give me some damage, and some mana regen.

So I hedged my bets, and when with the third option.



As for the tower shield, its the best blocking shield with the lowest strength requirement. The hyperion and Monarch require too much strength for the minimal amount of defense you gain, though the monarch does save you 10% run/walk speed.

Does the Block and Attack Rating make up for lost Mana

Yes. If you don't go max block, you'll get crushed by melee characters. And if you use twitch or GA, you won't have much AR. So 300 points into dex isn't as bad as an investment as you think. I've found that using 59 mana GCs and 300 points into dex, gives me more AR and mana than using 132 AR gcs and 200 points into dex. So twitch/GA lose in that comparison. Also using GA and Twitch makes you lack resistances.


Pity the Jewelers armour of the whale is so rare. Anyone know if you can shop it from Anya?
They're actually somewhat common, as people run bots to shop for them. I’ve seen an handful of people selling ancient armors of the whale.

I just traded for this gorgeous babe:

http://i44.tinypic.com/2l8dzqd.jpg

I just need 3 matching 15/15 jewels :)

[renegademaster]

Thanks for the detailed reply! I am going to add some of your tips to my "How to make Energy Shield work for you" thread ;)

Do you use any Integer Damage Reduction, or is the damage you take so high in Dueling its not worth it?

Do you know how much IAS you need to reach max Zeal Speed? the german speed calculator doesn't offer options for Zealing Sorcs, are they treated as Zealing Paladins?

[rickster]

Thanks for the detailed reply! I am going to add some of your tips to my "How to make Energy Shield work for you" thread ;)
Eh, don't quote me on those numbers. I did them somewhat hastily. I'm almost done collecting my gear, and need to redo the mana regeneration calculations. I only have ~3k mana, if you're pushing 4.5k+ you should get a lot more regen than what I have.

Do you use any Integer Damage Reduction, or is the damage you take so high in Dueling its not worth it?
With 95% ES, all the damage you take is to your mana orb. Once it's down, you're dead even with 75% resists and max block. When people are doing 1-3k damage after the pvp penalty, there's not enough integer reduction to save you.

Although, maybe 95% is too high, because once my orb is down, I die in one hit (my life would be around ~1.2k). Maybe I can take an extra hit if my life and mana orbs drain equally. That's a math project for another day though.

Do you know how much IAS you need to reach max Zeal Speed? the german speed calculator doesn't offer options for Zealing Sorcs, are they treated as Zealing Paladins?

it's in the breakpoint sticky in this section. You need 65% ias to reach the last breakpoint (though passion already has 25%, so you only need 40%). It also lists breakpoints for polearms. It doesn't list anything else i'm afraid. Though a phaseblade is the best weapon to use for passion.

[renegademaster]

You do have a surprising amount of life! Do your mana charm have life on them too?

don't worry not quoting numbers, just that Integer damage reduction isnt so important, and max block is! Have a look at the end!

[rickster]

I have +495 life from charms, (5 light charms with 44 life), a bunch of life/mana charms, and two all resist charms with life). I get 90 from my armor, and 50 from my shield. I have 824 boostable life. Yeah, 1.5k life is pretty impressive with no hard points into vitality :)

Integer reduction is more important for PVM, since monsters do ~100 per hit.

[sirpoopsalot]

Integer reduction is more important for PVM, since monsters do ~100 per hit.

Actually, the vast majority (~80%) of monsters don't exceed 50-70 damage. Adding that last ~30 PDR will eliminate the damage from probably another ~19%...

... but that last 1%... *shudders*... those guys hurt.