Levels

[AniMe]

If this is flogging the scattered remains of what once was a horse, then by all means close the topic :P I participated in a topic a while back but it was a diverse topic where everything was discussed.

So, levels.

Me, an avid fan of ladders and ranking! The first thing I did when I woke up every morning after taking a wizz and asking my dogs to be quiet, was to check the ladders.

I followed them every day and had my favorites which I rooted for et cetera.. It was great.

Needless to say, a ladder is finished when one single person reaches 99.

"the other classes have no 99"
"you can still compete for the second spot"

Etc etc.. These are poor arguments to me. A ladder should be a continuous struggle for those who enjoy the participation!

So this is my opinion; level 99 should be as hard to obtain as it was in the good old days of D2 classic.

I've heard many players argue that "I have bought the game, I want to be able to reach level 99 even though I have a job/wife/kids/am president of the USA".

My take on this issue is this; If you don't have as much time to spare as a player who devouts himself to the game 24/7, you shouldn't obtain the same results. The highest level should be more or less impossible to reach for even the most persevering of players. This keeps the game very much alive.

I HATE to have FINISHED a character. Grinding loses all it's value because upgrading items through grinding is... Just not very fun...

Though at level 93, leveling is very slow but you know that you get something for every monster kill and eventually you'll become a wee bit stronger.

Of course there is no significant advantage in being 99 or 96, but for those who play alot and wants to play alot you are providing the source for that fun.

This is my greatest fear of D3. The maximum level being easy to reach, as it is in D2, WoW or Ragnarok Online.

[konfeta]

My take on this issue is this; If you don't have as much time to spare as a player who devouts himself to the game 24/7, you shouldn't obtain the same results. The highest level should be more or less impossible to reach for even the most persevering of players. This keeps the game very much alive.

We already obtain less results by having less items and less high level chars. This game doesn't end after reaching level 99 with ONE class.

So please, no ego stroking "YOU NEED OVER NINE THOUSAND BAAL RUNS TO REACH LEVEL 99" bull**** in this game. I'd like the ability to actually complete a character without spending 90% of the character's lifetime grinding the last 10 levels. You already have a goal set of completing a character via equipment. Let us, at the very least, have a reasonable chance of getting a maxed out char in terms of levels.

[SlechtWeerBeer]

I never, ever got a character beyond ~80, because endless grinds are endless. Sure, people with more time should be better than I am, but imho, in the sense of items.

[AniMe]

We already obtain less results by having less items and less high level chars. This game doesn't end after reaching level 99 with ONE class.

So please, no ego stroking "YOU NEED OVER NINE THOUSAND BAAL RUNS TO REACH LEVEL 99" bull**** in this game. I'd like the ability to actually complete a character without spending 90% of the character's lifetime grinding the last 10 levels. You already have a goal set of completing a character via equipment. Let us, at the very least, have a reasonable chance of getting a maxed out char in terms of levels.

For many of us, reaching the maximum level is the end with that character. Sure, one could always PvP and such but the reason to grind is lost.

And by your argument, it should also be fairly easy to get all the end gear equipment.

Besides, the last 10 levels in Classic D2 was more than 99% of the grind up to level 90 :P I loved that and those of us who were interested in ladder/competitive play also enjoyed that.

I don't see why a max level character is of such great worth. It's the items which matters the most anyway...

There really is no reason to have a level 99 character other than the novelty of it (and the tiny whiny boost to stats).

I believe that if one is to achieve the high levels 96, 97, 98... That player should really have to play alot.

Right now it seems that every player who plays 5 hours a week wants everything out of the game, what reason do us competitive players have to play more then?

The more you play, the more you should get out of the game...

There was barely any complaints about how hard it was to level in D2 back in Classic. Why is there now?

Why would you want to complete your character? Always being able to become better and stronger is what makes a game fun and lasting. If you want to complete a game, why not play Super Mario Bros?

[AniMe]

I never, ever got a character beyond ~80, because endless grinds are endless. Sure, people with more time should be better than I am, but imho, in the sense of items.

In Classic D2 level 80 was indeed a bit of grind, when you had some idea of leveling spots, it could take up to 20 hours of effective grind.

In LoD level 80 basically is 2 hours of playing if you know the game :P

So it's not about time really. Many people rather chat, explore et cetera while not really caring about effective exping... But that is also their choice...

[xSTFUx]

I don't think that levelling should be grinding and tiresome. I agree that there should be a bit of challenge, but D3 is a game where you experiment with other classes. What's the point of grinding hours and hours and days and days to get the maximum level?...You get no respect, its called no-life. First of all, 99% of the people will get bored before they even REACH gaining maximum level, if it is impossible to. D3 should be a game based on skills, not time. People will choose to use their time to experiment with skills and learn to employ them in the best ways...not sit infront of their computer and kill the same monsters for days. Unless it is item hunting, but then that's a different story~

[AniMe]

I don't think that levelling should be grinding and tiresome. I agree that there should be a bit of challenge, but D3 is a game where you experiment with other classes. What's the point of grinding hours and hours and days and days to get the maximum level?...You get no respect, its called no-life. First of all, 99% of the people will get bored before they even REACH gaining maximum level, if it is impossible to. D3 should be a game based on skills, not time. People will choose to use their time to experiment with skills and learn to employ them in the best ways...not sit infront of their computer and kill the same monsters for days. Unless it is item hunting, but then that's a different story~

Well I think you're wrong. In the days of D2C no one got bored because it was slow to level. In fact, people loved it. No one forced you to level when it got slow (around level 90-91) but it kept people with their characters and created a more diverse competitive field. Represented by a VERY active ladder. So saying that 99% gets bored or doesn't enjoy grinding is not true.

Why is item hunting different? It's grinding for something of value. Just like experience. When you don't get experience you take away alot of the reason to play for many of us.

I understand that many players reason like you, but you must understand that you're not speaking for the entire community so I'd appreciate if you didn't make it sound like you did :P

And by the way, I don't play games to earn respect nor do I show people respect for being first on the ladder. I enjoy it because it provides me with a lot of fun.

PS:

Time = skill.

People who play Starcraft or such an hour a day will never match the Koreans who play 16 hours a day. This is just how the world works. The more time you invest, the more benefit you should reap.

Cheers.

[Valkenheim]

That's what I liked about D2, you can stop at around 85-90 if you wanted and have no real disadvantage as a 99, but that doesn't stop people from getting 99.

For me it really depended on the character, my keyrunner and MFer were only about 85 and got to use every single item in the game, but my PvPers I took to 99 just because it was fun.

After playing D2 for countless years it would be nice to have the max level have a meaning, such as gear required level 99 so you actually have a goal to reach other than 5 stats and a 1 skill point.

But at the same time it shouldn't be too easy because diablo itself is just a hack and slash and if you reach your level too fast there's nothing fun left to do.

[tommerbob]

There's gotta be good balance. I don't think reaching max level should be a weeks-on-end grind. But it shouldn't be a piece of cake, either. I thought D2C was pretty well-balanced in the leveling department.

There is a decent compromise for this, using the idea of "rested" experience: your character builds up "rest" the longer he's not played. For that amount of rest, he earns extra experience when he finally is played again. With rested experience, it would allow for 1-99 grinding a big pain for those avid gamers who just want to play hours on end. And for those who don't play as much, they'd earn rested experience, making the grind not so long.

Of course, the hours-on-end-players hate this, because they feel like they're being jipped in a way. "Why should I play as much as I do if others who don't play as much are still rewarded as much as me?"

There are other ways of rewarding the avid-10-hours-a-day gamer without killing the incentive of the majority of gamers who don't play nearly as much.

With all of that said, however, without rested xp and the grind being very long, I would not be horribly upset. In D2 once I reached around 80-85, I stopped playing a character. The 85-99 grind just wasn't worth it. I've already experienced all of the quests and gameplay, I can wear virtually any item, and by now I'm ready for a new character. Was I mad about it? Not really. I felt like those gamers out there who really wanted to play a character that long could, that's cool with me. The game was still fun even if I never hit 99. HOWEVER...

I really hope Blizz ups the rewards/gaming at high levels. There are many ways of doing this. Here's just a few ideas: increasing level/skill bonuses at high levels (making your characters exponentially more powerful than lower levels); make new areas that are restricted for high level players only; increase number of high level items; etc.

I WANT TO HAVE THE INCENTIVE TO REACH 99.

[Raging_Zealot]

In Classic D2 level 80 was indeed a bit of grind, when you had some idea of leveling spots, it could take up to 20 hours of effective grind.

In LoD level 80 basically is 2 hours of playing if you know the game :P

So it's not about time really. Many people rather chat, explore et cetera while not really caring about effective exping... But that is also their choice...

IMO LoD was only made that easy to get that far that quickly due to rushing and farming specific areas for specific levels, things that hopefully wont be quite as common in D3. Also the endless Baal runs were helped greatly by tons of bots doing runs all day, D3 will likely have less bots (seems like most blizz games do not have very man bots for a while, but when they get older more and more people figure out how to get 'em on b.net). I also believe that crazy overpowered runewords and builds helped allow bots as well, as it wasn't hard for a fully equipped hammerdin to run Baal unsupervised with little danger to himself or others.

Obviously I don't know for sure how D3 will be, but I hope much of the things that enabled one to level that quickly in D2 won't be there to allow it in D3.

Anyways, I agree that max level should be somewhat difficult to reach, but weeks of doing nothing but leveling isn't really my idea of fun...I never got any chars much over 92 or so for that reason.

[Valkenheim]

There's gotta be good balance. I don't think reaching max level should be a weeks-on-end grind. But it shouldn't be a piece of cake, either. I thought D2C was pretty well-balanced in the leveling department.

There is a decent compromise for this, using the idea of "rested" experience: your character builds up "rest" the longer he's not played. For that amount of rest, he earns extra experience when he finally is played again. With rested experience, it would allow for 1-99 grinding a big pain for those avid gamers who just want to play hours on end. And for those who don't play as much, they'd earn rested experience, making the grind not so long.

Of course, the hours-on-end-players hate this, because they feel like they're being jipped in a way. "Why should I play as much as I do if others who don't play as much are still rewarded as much as me?"

There are other ways of rewarding the avid-10-hours-a-day gamer without killing the incentive of the majority of gamers who don't play nearly as much.

With all of that said, however, without rested xp and the grind being very long, I would not be horribly upset. In D2 once I reached around 80-85, I stopped playing a character. The 85-99 grind just wasn't worth it. I've already experienced all of the quests and gameplay, I can wear virtually any item, and by now I'm ready for a new character. Was I mad about it? Not really. I felt like those gamers out there who really wanted to play a character that long could, that's cool with me. The game was still fun even if I never hit 99. HOWEVER...

I really hope Blizz ups the rewards/gaming at high levels. There are many ways of doing this. Here's just a few ideas: increasing level/skill bonuses at high levels (making your characters exponentially more powerful than lower levels); make new areas that are restricted for high level players only; increase number of high level items; etc.

I WANT TO HAVE THE INCENTIVE TO REACH 99.

Yeah, I agree on the incentive to reach level 99, the best way to do that would make the best set items require 99 or around that level, like in WoW you HAVE to be level 60/70/80 to use the best items, but in D2 anything after 85 was pretty much just for fun or extra points.

[AniMe]

The easy leveling is not to be blamed on rushing and bots... Going through the game 'legit' is a days work tops then you're fairly high level, ready to do what you've got to do.

I VERY seldom level in baal runs. I am a solo player and I never had a problem getting level 90+ in a very short amount of time.

So bots and rushing is not to blame. They just provided comfort for those who chose to play such games, not insane leveling speed.

Question; What's the point of a ladder or a competitive leveling environment when everybody will be max level in a few weeks?

And will players such as me and my friends have to stay away from D3 entirely? The main reason for me not liking and subsequently not playing WoW was due to the ease of getting the highest level ;/

[veteran player]

mines almost 94, what a pain lol. i think after lvl 99 "experience points" should also be "ranked for all players" and have its own ladder and rank chart for all to see.

[Valmy]

If I were the designer, I will not put a maximum level. I will put insane needs in experience for level over 95, but if someone wants to exp and exp... why not to reach lvl 150 and pick up every skills max and insane life? It's just his char.


We know Blizzard won't do this... then I prefer it will be like classic: difficult to exp up, and less players above 90+

[Dahmer]

If I were the designer, I will not put a maximum level. I will put insane needs in experience for level over 95, but if someone wants to exp and exp... why not to reach lvl 150 and pick up every skills max and insane life? It's just his char.


We know Blizzard won't do this... then I prefer it will be like classic: difficult to exp up, and less players above 90+No level cap? I can see groups of people leveling one character to as high as they can...

I think they should have 99 as cap and make it hard to get there, 80-85 should be somewhat easy but after that it should get really hard and anyone able to reach 99 should get a bigger advantage than people had in d2

[AniMe]

I don't get the obsession with being able to reach level 99... Not everyone is able to get the best gear either, should we make the über drops easy to get as well for people who play 2-3 hours a week?

People never want to fight or put effort in for things and want it all on a silver platter. But there will always be players, TONS of them who will play many many hours a day, every day, and those players should have content as well.

That's why it being almost impossible to reach level 99 is an awesome idea. It doesn't deter anything from the 'casual players' who might reach level 93-94 when the geeks do get level 97-98. The difference in character strength is very miniscule...

However what it does is huge. Provides ladders, another competitive field, a feeling that every monster kill matters hence makes it alot of fun grinding et cetera...