How item intensive should D3 be ?

[Bladewind]

Most regulars probably know by now that D3 is going to be far more item intensive than D2 due to lack of stats customization. Will this effectively be killing off SP and untwinked chars ? Bear in mind, there are SP players and certainly hardcore players tend to play by themselves and only trade when it is absolutely necessary. I just want to see how things pan out.


Being too item intensive will make the game very hard to start off at with certain classes. I can already see certain class (WD and Wiz) are going to have a far easier time than Barbs / melee/ bow/ranged chars since they have spells, which are totally independent of equipment (aside from the usual +skills from items) to kill their foes. This rift won't be noticeable until the barb hits mid level and he realized he was still wearing something like Sigon's Set (incomplete at that) at level 55. Happened to me on ladder 2 weeks ago.


While similarly, the wiz would have easily maxed one of her stronger spells that hardly require a weapon to be effective. Think a level 55 sorc with max level 20 Frozen Orb and just a few points in cold mastery. Practically drops everything in Normal mode dead while my paladin was still swinging a Skewer of Krintz.


Being an item intensive game is fine dandy. But please do not make it SO intensive that a caster MF char is absolutely necessary to survive in D3 (which is the case for D2, people start with a sorc or nec). I hated casters and MFing with a passion and all I could do was just clobber some pgems/runes to trade and pray the other trader does not sell for too high. I hope D3 does not go that route either.

[Raging_Zealot]

Since we don't know all the details of how automatic stats and no stat requirements on items will play out for sure in the final game, IMO it is jumping to conclusions to say that D3 will be "far more" item intensive than D3 for this reason. If anything, the greater balance of skills and items (not having Overpowered runewords which thus necessitated scaling up the monster difficulty, leaving untwinked melee chars to twist in the wind in late Hell Diff.) could make it less item intensive. I would say that items that give +stats bonuses might be more highly prized, but we don't know how common or large these bonuses will be.

I'm not saying for sure it will or it wont be, but I think it is a bit early to draw the conclusion that it for sure will be more item intensive. The Devs have also made comments about barb's doing "just as much damage as the wizard", just with less flash, since it isn't an MMO with set roles like DD, Tank, etc. This leads me to believe the final game will be balanced much better. Heck, the auto set stat points will let the Devs better guess where your stats are at a certain stage of the game, and thus balance the difficulty of that stage better for what items you are able to use (damage, defense, resistance) and how much health and mana you have. Just something to think about.

As far as how item intensive it should be, I think there should be clear rewards for people that managed to find better items, like maybe noticably faster killing speed. This would keep alive the urge to find new and better items. This should not prevent people from being able to complete the game at a reasonable pace if they were not lucky enough to find something above average however. Additionally, it would be nice if playing through the content would provide good loot, rather than having to focus on tedious boss runs. Obviously the chance to re-run areas would still allow players willing to spend the time to get better items additional areas to get them though.

We also don't know all of the modifiers that will be available on items, so caster spells may not be as independent of items as they were in Diablo II. We might end up with items that modify the way spells work, such as +xx damage to fire spells, or what have you. I get what you are saying though, in that D2 poorly equipped casters definitely had it easier than poorly equipped melee characters, IMO.

[satheron]

Your making an unspoken argument that Singleplayer characters starting new have it easy in diablo 2 in completing all 3 difficulties.

Your concerns for d3 are already a reality in diablo 2.

Go to single player, make a barbarian, or zealot pally, fury druid, whatever melee you might choose.

your not going to have an easy time, your progression as a character is directly related to the gear you find.

[tommerbob]

Bladewind, I think you're comparing D3 too much with the D2 system. They are different games with different systems, and should be seen differently.

[visom]

Well if D3 isn't item intensive it would eliminate the awesomeness of holding a godly item.
But I think D3 should be a bit less item intensive than D2. For example, in D2 a hammerdin can have only 20 points in energy but once he hits level 80, all his gears give can potentially give him +30 energy and +200 mana (I'm not that good with numbers) which defeats the purpose in him having an option to up energy with the attribute points he earned.

[konfeta]

If Blizzard implements item sharing for single-player, the problem with being heavily item dependent go away. God knows how many awesome Barb/Pally/Assassin items my Sorcs and Necros found in single player.

[Bladewind]

Your making an unspoken argument that Singleplayer characters starting new have it easy in diablo 2 in completing all 3 difficulties.

Your concerns for d3 are already a reality in diablo 2.

Go to single player, make a barbarian, or zealot pally, fury druid, whatever melee you might choose.

your not going to have an easy time, your progression as a character is directly related to the gear you find.

I am already well aware of that, I made a Fury Druid back in 1.07 and a Paladin in classic D2 Sp. Hell was practically a wall for my paladin since I failed 3 imbues on Dimensional Blades. Back then I was still on sp because I only had a 56k connection.

All I mentioned is that casters have a easier time to hit to the mid levels and often leave their melee counterparts in the dust. Especially with regards to equipment as most casters do NOT require extensive equipment to survive. People have done Summoner necros untwinked all the way to hell and beat baal's face into the wall.

[a black kid]

If Blizzard implements item sharing for single-player, the problem with being heavily item dependent go away. God knows how many awesome Barb/Pally/Assassin items my Sorcs and Necros found in single player.

im not quite good at remember where i read things, but im almost positive blizzard said that your characters will have a shared stash. therefore eliminating the need to create 'mules' and to help out SP characters.

[Bladewind]

But if you remember, a shared stash in the end, has overall less space than say 8 different chars stack together. Still everything in still up in the air at the moment....

[Zarniwoop]

I can't believe they are going through with no stat customization.

[Demetrium]

I can't believe they are going through with no stat customization.

Maybe if people complain about it in every thread they'll change it.

Oh wait, they won't.

[NASE]

I can't believe they are going through with no stat customization.

They never said there wouldn't be any stats customization. They said they want to go with auto stats though this doesn't mean that every character will be the same.
There are already ideas how you could combine auto stats with a minimal stats customisation.



One things I'm seeing it that they are making items more important. We have the equipment system that will be item depending - quite trivial, I know.
Then we have the rune system. Eventually, this means that to use your skills to their maximum, you will have to find runes. So again, you need luck. Probably, the higher runes will be quite rare - lets hope not as rare as zod's. So again as focus in items.
On top of that, we have the talisman system. And if I understand correct, this is items based aswell. You need to find gems to put into it. So again, items. And again, these things can't be to easy to find or it would be obsolete. Having them rain down like gems doesn't seem very interesting.
And on top of that, we have some unknown system and I don't really see what they can do that isn't item depending. Can they do something strange with skills? Something with crafting you stats? All seems quite strange.

I agree with Bladewind, making DIII to item depending isn't. Yet I can't see blizzard not seeing this. They'll make sure you don't need super items to enjoy the game.

[satheron]

I am already well aware of that, I made a Fury Druid back in 1.07 and a Paladin in classic D2 Sp. Hell was practically a wall for my paladin since I failed 3 imbues on Dimensional Blades. Back then I was still on sp because I only had a 56k connection.

All I mentioned is that casters have a easier time to hit to the mid levels and often leave their melee counterparts in the dust. Especially with regards to equipment as most casters do NOT require extensive equipment to survive. People have done Summoner necros untwinked all the way to hell and beat baal's face into the wall.

Though they were only demos, you should reread some of the reviews on the playable demos that tons of people wrote. One of the things you will notice is that people had a far easier time with the barb than the wizard.

The devs even made a comment a while back noting the popularity of the wizard power wise, even though in reality the barb had the gameplay edge, so they were going back to give the barbs spells more of a kick.

You can also believe that there will be stats in this game that will grant more power to spells, along with item prefix/suffixs

But as far as d2 is concerned you are right. That game is just Hammerdin land now. Its pretty sad. :p

[Bladewind]

Isn't it the same for D2 ?

At low levels Sorcs, Necs, Wind druids get killed really easily (low hp, low mana, little to no block, weak damage) but once they get their skills up into shape and obtain some of their better nuking spells, they literally sweep through the game until hell at least where they have to contend with immunities.

[stillman]

After 10 years, stockpiling wealth is one of the fun end game options for many players. I think d3 should be VERY item intensive.

I suppose they could just rig SP so more loot drops and this would compensate for the lack of trading in SP.

[satheron]

After 10 years, stockpiling wealth is one of the fun end game options for many players. I think d3 should be VERY item intensive.

I suppose they could just rig SP so more loot drops and this would compensate for the lack of trading in SP.

This.

Me and my friends do lan parties from time to time.

Everyone starts at lvl 1 in a party, and we get as far as we can.

We sometimes make a ever so slight drop mod adjustment.

[DaDarkOne]

I find this to be a very interesting topic. First and foremost, the necromancer is by far my favorite character since D2 came out long ago.

I have had the most fun using an untwinked necro to beat hell baal in hardcore. While this was a slow process (I died about 5 times at level 70+, having to restart) I only hope to be able to do something like this in D3.

At the same time, my standard necro using enigma to group his minions is fun to play with, mainly killing DClone and Ubers.

The reliance on end game items MUST continue. Builds such as dreamers have to be viable or the replayability of the game will suffer greatly. However, I will be very disappointed if I am not able to solo or play with a small party through the game on the hardest difficulty.

[AxlStrife]

I hope that the game isn't TOO item-dependent for one simple reason: it encourages duping on a massive scale and item/gold-for-cash sites. Even with a P2P model in place, there will be people trying to make a buck by it, and I don't know if Blizz will be ready for it.

[Srikandi]

I played D2 (and D1) almost exclusively as a non-twinking, non-muling single player. Never used an item I hadn't found on that char. Makes for a challenging game, and every time through is very different, even with the same class/build, because what happens depends on what drops :) Though I very rarely had a full set, lol.

To me that element of randomness is what makes this kind of game so replayable. That was the magic formula invented by D2 and copied so many times since. So yeah, hope that never changes :)

As for Blizz being ready for duping and items/gold-for-cash, WoW is the biggest engine of that kind of behavior in the world ;) I think they know a thing or two about it.

[AxlStrife]

...As for Blizz being ready for duping and items/gold-for-cash, WoW is the biggest engine of that kind of behavior in the world ;) I think they know a thing or two about it.

I site D2 B.net as a rebuttal to your argument assuming nothing concrete has come out to say that D3 B.net will be P2P.

Will they have the manpower to manage all 3 titles going full cylinder on their brand-new servers?

[Bladewind]

D2 is an old and dying game. Heck I am happy they bother to actually release patches and do a biannual sweep. D3 will be much much different in this aspect since it is a new game, the GMs are bound to be much more active.

Heck even for WoW, it certainly took a while for Blizz to wipe most of the botters and farmers. But botters and farmers keep coming back. This is a battle that is never ending.


I certainly don't mind to pay for Bnet, if it meant a better experience for me like being able to have multiple accounts, better functionality like guilds while freeplayers only restricted to 1 account per cd key, cannot make clans etc.

[AxlStrife]

D2 is an old and dying game. Heck I am happy they bother to actually release patches and do a biannual sweep. D3 will be much much different in this aspect since it is a new game, the GMs are bound to be much more active.

Heck even for WoW, it certainly took a while for Blizz to wipe most of the botters and farmers. But botters and farmers keep coming back. This is a battle that is never ending.


I certainly don't mind to pay for Bnet, if it meant a better experience for me like being able to have multiple accounts, better functionality like guilds while freeplayers only restricted to 1 account per cd key, cannot make clans etc.

I just wish Blizzard would confirm what financial model they plan to go with on B.net 2.0 sometime soon. I do like the RuneScape "seperation of F2P and P2P" model, which seems to be the one you're talking about in your last paragraph.

[SlechtWeerBeer]

I just wish Blizzard would confirm what financial model they plan to go with on B.net 2.0 sometime soon. I do like the RuneScape "seperation of F2P and P2P" model, which seems to be the one you're talking about in your last paragraph.

I bet everything D III related is free after paying for the game.

[Tyrone]

Maybe if people complain about it in every thread they'll change it.

Oh wait, they won't.

Haha! :D

This topic is basically another way to phrase the "auto stats are going to ruin Diablo!" argument.

The truth is whether you are distributing your stats or not it all really came down to hoping you got a nice sword to kill monsters with. All in all I never felt much change in my performance purely from the stat points I was putting in.

[Bladewind]

Haha! :D

This topic is basically another way to phrase the "auto stats are going to ruin Diablo!" argument.

The truth is whether you are distributing your stats or not it all really came down to hoping you got a nice sword to kill monsters with. All in all I never felt much change in my performance purely from the stat points I was putting in.

Read the whole thread first before you type.

Auto-stats have nothing to do with this issue. This issue is about as old as Diablo 1 where casters always have an advantage because they can make it through the game with little equipment, but melee and ranged chars CANNOT !

[ThomasJ]

Gaining good items will be much geater in demand because of how the automatic stat allocation will work. Though isn't that one of the points of a hacknslash type rpg, finding good items for your characters ?

[AxlStrife]

I bet everything D III related is free after paying for the game.

For both of our wallet's sake, I hope that's the case. For the sake of the game, I'd take you up on it.

[deho]

Items should be important - it's a reason to keep playing over and over... to get the good items... but it shouldnt be impossible to get since that will increase hacking items.