Choosing between Defense or Block

[millerrr]

I have a difficult computational question..
1)Regarding PvM cs hell, what is the defense point over for which is better to have defense or block? ?


I make my example to be more clear.
Actually i wear a 30/20 grim with 60%chance of block(for sorc).
I must choose between a mageplate or twich.
Only from a defense/block point of view considering that twich give me 15% more chance to block(not more than 75%)
What is the defense needed to gain 15% more chance to not get hit?
In fact in my case if i wear a mageplate with 360 def (for semplicity 300 def more (twich is 60)) it means 300+shout380%=1440 more def

It is better to have 1440 more def or 15% more chance of block?
And if would be 1600 more? Which is better? What is the value of defense which make it a better choice defense or block?

[WarlockCC]

In my experience, block is better.

[Monzee]

It really depends on what kind of mage plate it is. Is it 24fhr 50+life high dual res I probably would prefer that over twitch but still the extra 15% Chance to block is very nice for most casters. If you do not feel that you need the resist on the mp I would go with twitch.

[Fists of War]

I would rather have the 10/17/24 fhr and rez as well as a little bit of defence over 15% block. Although Warlock is almost undisputably right, in most cases block > defence. One thing that people might not realise, it that level > defence as well. So it's not much good leveling your defence BvB to level 80 and calling it a day.

[HegemonKhan]

for a sorc, right?

defense is completely useless, u need at least 10,000 def to notice a difference. the only way a sorc might reach that is if she used the cold armors.

also, as a sorc u don't want to be getting hit in hell cs, especially by melee (since there's no weapon ranged archer monsters). most attacks are elem except for the skel warriors (espeically seis' minions) and almost any character getting whacked by skel warriors or worse seis' minions, is probably dead anyways.

so i'd say:

defense vs block

BLOCK (100% of the "vote") > defense (0% of the "vote")

though block isn't that useful either, especially for a sorc. u should NOT be getting hit by melee in hell cs. the only real reason for a shield is the resists and FHR u can get from it.

resists is most important, than FCR, than FHR, than block, than def. for hell cs.

[Fists of War]

for a sorc, right?

defense is completely useless, u need at least 10,000 def to notice a difference. the only way a sorc might reach that is if she used the cold armors.

also, as a sorc u don't want to be getting hit in hell cs, especially by melee (since there's no weapon ranged archer monsters). most attacks are elem except for the skel warriors (espeically seis' minions) and almost any character getting whacked by skel warriors or worse seis' minions, is probably dead anyways.

so i'd say:

defense vs block

BLOCK (100% of the "vote") > defense (0% of the "vote")

though block isn't that useful either, especially for a sorc. u should NOT be getting hit by melee in hell cs. the only real reason for a shield is the resists and FHR u can get from it.

resists is most important, than FCR, than FHR, than block, than def. for hell cs.
Thing is, if you use a shield on hell cs on a sorc, you get block anyway. 30/20 is pretty common on sorc shields so it's not like you have to sacrifice block for anything else really :)

[HegemonKhan]

ya, that's true. the 30/20 is really nice for/if/when using a shield. i usually jsut use a 3 p diamond kite shield (its light and doesn't slow u down) (haven't found a 3 socket dragon shield yet), but it's block rate is horrible and it doesn't have the 30/20 mods, which hurt if u ever do block.

[millerrr]

I think that you all missed my question.
It is clear for all that res is better for cs but from a melee point of view only:

There is a value of defense which give me more than 15% to dont get hit.
How much is this value?
We must find a formula to calculate this!!

[WarlockCC]

Defence modifies the chance a monster has to hit you.
Block modifies the chance you have of deflecting a successful hit, therefore, these two are not comparable.

Especially since block will always continue to give you the same benefit, while defence's benefit is less per level. This is due to the difference in level between you and the attacking monster affecting their chance to hit you.

That is why I abbreviated it to the short line I wrote.

The calculation you seek would differ per monster and per level of your sorc. Will you calculate it for each monster every time you get a level ? :)

[millerrr]

That is why I abbreviated it to the short line I wrote.

The calculation you seek would differ per monster and per level of your sorc. Will you calculate it for each monster every time you get a level ? :)

Heheheh,
You are right, but monsters melee in cs hell are only two or three... and char level would be 9x.
For example yestarday i tried and with 800 more defense Diablo (hell) has -5% chance to hit me...so with 2400 more def i equal the +15% of block.
Did you understand?

[HegemonKhan]

here's the link:

http://strategy.diii.net/news.php?id=551#Chance%20to%20hit

this is taken from this link (all credit goes to link):
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chance to Hit

(i presume this same formula is used when a monster attacks u)

100 * AR / (AR + DR) * 2 * alvl / (alvl + dlvl)
AR = Attack Rating; alvl = Level of Attacker; dlvl = Level of Defender; DR = Defense Rating

Note: Attacks will never have less than 5% chance to hit nor more than 95% chance to hit.

Final chance to hit is truncated.

Example

I have an AR of 10,000. I am lvl85 (attacker) and the Defender is lvl90 with a defense of 5000

= 100 * AR / (AR + DR) * 2 * alvl / (alvl + dlvl)
= 100 * 10000/ (10000 + 5000) * 2 * 85/ ( 85 + 90)
= 1000000/(10000 + 5000) * 2 * 85/(85 + 90)
= 1000000/(15000) * 2 * 85/(175)
= 1000000/(15000) * 2 * 85/(175)
= 66.667 * 2 * 85/175
= 133.333 * 85/175
= 11333.333/175
= 64.761% chance to hit.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chance to Block

(hopefully, all u have to do is ignore the dex in the equation and it's the correct equation for classic, but i'm not sure)

Total Blocking = [(Blocking * (Dexterity - 15)) / (Character Level * 2)]

Blocking = A total of the Blocking on all of your items. (E.g: Guardian Angel, Twitchthroe, Any Shield, Holy Shield)
[] = Round Down

Note: Blocking on shield shown in game is capped at 75% while it may actually be higher. For a true account of most shields blocking ability... Look here forUnique, Set, and Magical/Rare shields. (for magical/rare, add the Blocking % from the suffix to the base blocking)

Note 2: Block chance is divided by 3 after the 75% cap. You can't block more than 25% when running.

Example: A lvl85 Paladin with 100 Dex, Guardian Angel(20%), lvl20 Holy Shield (35%) and a Herald of Zakarum(82%).

Total Blocking = [(Blocking * (Dexterity - 15)) / (Character Level * 2)]
= (20 + 35 + 82 * (100 - 15)) / (85 * 2)
= (20 + 35 + 82 * (85)) / (85 * 2)
= (20 + 35 + 82 * (85)) / 170
= (20 + 35 + 82 * (85)) / 170
= (137 * 85) / 170
= 11645 / 170
= 68.5
= 68% Chance to Block

[millerrr]

I make a calculation for
Abyss Knight ar 5729 lv84
dlvl=91

100 * 5729 / (5729 + 3000) * (2 * 84/ (84+ 91)) =63%

100 * 5729 / (5729 + 5000) * (2 * 84/ (84+ 91)) = 51,26

To find how much def for 1%
100 * 5729 / (5729 + x) * (2 * 84/ (84+ 91)) = 62%

x=3141

141 def for each 1% *EDITED* THIS Compute is wrong

This means 141 - 280% = 37 def

37 def on armor give 1% chance minor to get hit....370 more give 10% minor *EDITED* THIS Compute is wrong

adding 75% of cold armor
x+x*0,75+x*2,8=141
x(1+0,75+2,8)=141
x=31 *EDITED* THIS Compute is wrong

[HegemonKhan]

classic may not have the same stats as LOD. i think that normal (white named) monsters in hell cs are mlvl 78. and i'm not sure if hell cs is dlvl (area lvl) 91 in classic.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
78 mlvl for normal (white named) monsters in hell river of flame and cs.
80 mlvl for champion (blue named) monsters in hell river of flame and cs.
81 mlvl for unique (gold-yelow named) monsters in hell river of flame and cs.
84 (i think) mlvl for sies in hell cs
84 (i think) mlvl for vizier in hell cs
84 (i think) mlvl for infector in hell cs
90 lvl for diablo in hell cs

clvl 73-83, u get full exp from normal monsters in hell cs and river of flame

clvl 75-85, u get full exp from champion monsters in hell cs and river of flame

clvl 76-86, u get full exp from unique monsters in hell cs and river of flame

clvl 79-89, u get full exp from the seal bosses in hell cs

clvl 85-95, u get full exp from diablo in hell cs

[WarlockCC]

I think defence has deminishing returns.

37 defence might help you to go from 60% chance to get hit to 59% chance to get hit, but to get to 58% chance, you are going to need more then 37.

Also, due to the aforementioned effect your level will have on the calculation, there will be a turning point where more block will yield better results in the not getting hit department.

In the end, any amount of defence cannot be compared to any amount of chance to block because they influence different, seperate calculations.

[Lorg]

classic may not have the same stats as LOD. i think that normal (white named) monsters in hell cs are mlvl 78. and i'm not sure if hell cs is dlvl (area lvl) 91 in classic.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
78 mlvl for normal (white named) monsters in hell river of flame and cs.
80 mlvl for champion (blue named) monsters in hell river of flame and cs.
81 mlvl for unique (gold-yelow named) monsters in hell river of flame and cs.
84 (i think) mlvl for sies in hell cs
84 (i think) mlvl for vizier in hell cs
84 (i think) mlvl for infector in hell cs
90 lvl for diablo in hell cs

clvl 73-83, u get full exp from normal monsters in hell cs and river of flame

clvl 75-85, u get full exp from champion monsters in hell cs and river of flame

clvl 76-86, u get full exp from unique monsters in hell cs and river of flame

clvl 79-89, u get full exp from the seal bosses in hell cs

clvl 85-95, u get full exp from diablo in hell cs

This is somewhat debatable. At least i haven't had clear answer yet. Eventhought the area level for hell cs is 78 ,the monsters in it do not follow the principle of normals being 78 champs 80 and uniqs 81 (applieas to chests thought)

Anyway, here is a quote form orphan
*I ran some tests awhile ago that indicated that the mlvl of creatures in classic kept their own hardcoded mlvl, rather than the area levels. I started these tests because someone one here mentioned that might have been the case.*

Meaning the levels cannot be surmised straight form area levels.

Hopefully Orphan sees this and maybe enlight us once again...

[millerrr]

I think defence has deminishing returns.

37 defence might help you to go from 60% chance to get hit to 59% chance to get hit, but to get to 58% chance, you are going to need more then 37.


You are right it is not linear i think it is parabolic...

Anyway i report the last formula to abtain def needed from block:
Calculated for Monsterl lv 80 and char lv 91

((100 * 5729 * (2 * 80/ (80+ 91)))-64 *5729)/(64) = x def

Here some results

60% --> 3205 def
50%--> 4991 def
45%--> 13787 def

[HegemonKhan]

At least i haven't had clear answer yet. -Lorg

SAME, lol.

i'd love to get an answer on it....orphan...we need u!!!

[HegemonKhan]

sorry for double post, but thought it best to separate these posts

You are right it is not linear i think it is parabolic...

Anyway i report the last formula to abtain def needed from block:
Calculated for Monsterl lv 80 and char lv 91

((100 * 5729 * (2 * 80/ (80+ 91)))-64 *5729)/(64) = x def

Here some results

60% --> 3205 def
50%--> 4991 def
45%--> 13787 def

this seems right.

also, i just realized something (possibly):

having a 40% chance to get hit (60% to "dodge". when u "dodge" u receive NO damage), wouldn't that be equal-similiar to having a 60% chance to block (when u block u receive no damage) ??? wouldn't it be like having 2 shields on u ? if u fail to block with one shield u have anotehr "shield" ?

if this is indeed true, than having that 14,000 def smiter (or warlock with his 16,000 def smiter..GRR) is more powerful than i realized...

[fledgeling]

If you give me the exact parameters of your character before and after switching gear (e.g. you switch pavise for bone shield): attacker AR, your defense, your lvl, attacker lvl; I could use my secret excel spreadsheet in order to tell you which gear selection is better.

In general block % is more important.

The following chart was made for these parameters
Character A level 85
Character B (monster) level 78
Character A desired block rate 60 character A chance to be hit 40
Monster (character B) attack rating 5000

Defense needed by character A to get desired chance to "block"
6963


For 50% block you need 4571 defense.



You get 1% higher block per X defense: (chart is made for above parameters)
http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/9466/defensell7.jpg

Im still working on my xls, but I think the above mentioned calculations and chart should be correct.

[Fists of War]

sorry for double post, but thought it best to separate these posts



this seems right.

also, i just realized something (possibly):

having a 40% chance to get hit (60% to "dodge". when u "dodge" u receive NO damage), wouldn't that be equal-similiar to having a 60% chance to block (when u block u receive no damage) ??? wouldn't it be like having 2 shields on u ? if u fail to block with one shield u have anotehr "shield" ?

if this is indeed true, than having that 14,000 def smiter (or warlock with his 16,000 def smiter..GRR) is more powerful than i realized...
Although at 75% block and nice life, you don't really need to worry about melee. I'd rather have 90% all rez and 95% chance to get hit than 5% chance to get hit and 75% rez.