Idea for Masteries

[Arkardo]

So here's this thing I thought up (well, seen in another game :whistling:) that might be interesting for D3. I bet you remember the discussions in the past about how it's not logical that a Barbarian could go through the whole game using a sword without any points in Sword Mastery, but ends up with a maxed Axe Mastery? While this is not logical, the main advantage of this is that it does not restrict the way you have to play to end up with the setup you want. Still it's... weird. :badteeth:

I think this might be a good compromis between the two: award bonus damage (+ whatever other bonusses like Deadly Strike) based on how many kills you've made using a certain type of damage.

I 'borrowed' (*COUGH*stole*COUGH*) this idea from Castlevania: Order of Ecclesia, where there are (from the top of my memory) seven types of damage: slash, impact, fire, ice, lightning, light and darkness. Each 320 kills (or something) with one kind of damage adds 1% extra damage. This bonus is maxed out at 65536 (2^16) kills.

To translate it do D2 terms, you could have a 'mastery' for each weapon type (swords, axes, spears, bows, etc.), as well as elemental/poison/magical/whatever masteries. Each character can get bonusses for using a certain type of damage, which means no characters are left out for certain types of weapons (though magic would still be a problem for some characters). It also means that it COULD encourage (not sure 'bout this) to actively play in a group. Lastly, there's no need to restart (or respec, if that's in D3) your character if you want to switch; just start using the other weapon/magic type.

This concept could be tweaked by basing the bonus on damage done, so that you don't miss out when someone else steals your kill. Or base it on experience gained, to prevent players from going back to Normal Act 1 for massive easy kills. Or something.

Uuuh, so... thoughts? :scratchchin:

[phaolo]

I like the idea but I'd apply it for all as I hate blind-end trees (even if I still prefer D1 books :P)
However, there should be penalties\restrictions to avoid easy overpowered characters:


-skill power improves with usage, but weakens without exercise.

All is based on an "usage counter" N that works like the current diablo experience and is different for each ability. Each skill level has a N value to reach to gain\lose a skill point.
Each time you utilize a skill, its own counter will increment and some of the other skills' counter will decrease as a penalty.
The "usage counter" N is modified by "monsters kills" for offensive abilities, and "recasting" (after expiring, or timed for auras) for defensive spells.

Also, to prevent all maxed, having more than 6 skills powered (from D3) will speed up the penalties until they return below the limit.
It must all be planned so the player shouldn't worry too much about the power of the skills he prefers,.


-for offending skills, killed monsters must have the same level of the character(with a + - range), otherwise players would max their abilities against devilkins in Act1! This would also prevent immediate changes at high levels, so a lev80 will have to reach N kills for each skill point against monsters of the same strenght (so a different training it's good mostly for adjustments).

-passive skills cannot follow usage method as they're always enabled.

-if present, synergies must have balanced with penalties


----


Example on D2:
(I'm talking about the counter, not skill level)

zeal one kill --> zeal usage +1, vengeance usage counter -2, blessed hammer usage -2
blessed hammer one kill -->blessed hammer usage +1, zeal usage -2, vengeance usage -2
resist fire X seconds enabled --> resist fire usage +1, resist lightning usage -1
amplify damage one recast (after expiration) --> amplify damage usage +1, lower resist usage -1
whirlwind one kill --> whirlwind usage +1, frenzy usage -1
etc..

zeal level 4 requires usage counter to be above Y number
zeal level 5 requires usage counter to be above Z number
blessed hammer level 4 requires usage counter to be above A number
blessed hammer level 5 requires usage counter to be above B number
etc..


----


OT:
This brings me again on my most wanted utopic option: less random drops, game more based on merit! So you'd get better rewards when you: defeat a monster way more powerful than you, kill a huge group of monsters quickly without losing too much health, solve a new quest\riddle before others, save a friend from death, and so on.. Will this ever be possible? :cloud9:
*end of dreaming

[Matora]

There is an MMO out at the moment called Darkfall. It runs on the idea of use it or loose it for skills. There are no classes and you can change your skills completely by just playing as what you want to be and waiting.

I do not think though that this approach will work well with Diablo III.

[phaolo]

Oh! Wonderful, I'll have a look at that game recension *_*
Why isn't that system good for Diablo 3 anyway?


EDIT:
Uh, where does it say it's using the suggested method?
Most spells and skills can be purchased from NPCs [..] Some skills and spells can be learned from other players [..] other are racial specialty spells.

Also I'm not so convinced by the game :scratchchin:
(and big MMORPGs require too much time\attention)

[NioTumsSpik]

its also kinda the same way that Morrowind and Oblivion works

[phaolo]

:surprise: Ah..never played those. I guess we are pretty late with ideas lol :crazyeyes:

[chenghao]

So here's this thing I thought up (well, seen in another game :whistling:) that might be interesting for D3. I bet you remember the discussions in the past about how it's not logical that a Barbarian could go through the whole game using a sword without any points in Sword Mastery, but ends up with a maxed Axe Mastery? While this is not logical, the main advantage of this is that it does not restrict the way you have to play to end up with the setup you want. Still it's... weird. :badteeth:

I think this might be a good compromis between the two: award bonus damage (+ whatever other bonusses like Deadly Strike) based on how many kills you've made using a certain type of damage.

I 'borrowed' (*COUGH*stole*COUGH*) this idea from Castlevania: Order of Ecclesia, where there are (from the top of my memory) seven types of damage: slash, impact, fire, ice, lightning, light and darkness. Each 320 kills (or something) with one kind of damage adds 1% extra damage. This bonus is maxed out at 65536 (2^16) kills.

To translate it do D2 terms, you could have a 'mastery' for each weapon type (swords, axes, spears, bows, etc.), as well as elemental/poison/magical/whatever masteries. Each character can get bonusses for using a certain type of damage, which means no characters are left out for certain types of weapons (though magic would still be a problem for some characters). It also means that it COULD encourage (not sure 'bout this) to actively play in a group. Lastly, there's no need to restart (or respec, if that's in D3) your character if you want to switch; just start using the other weapon/magic type.

This concept could be tweaked by basing the bonus on damage done, so that you don't miss out when someone else steals your kill. Or base it on experience gained, to prevent players from going back to Normal Act 1 for massive easy kills. Or something.

Uuuh, so... thoughts? :scratchchin:

There is an MMO out at the moment called Darkfall. It runs on the idea of use it or loose it for skills. There are no classes and you can change your skills completely by just playing as what you want to be and waiting.

I do not think though that this approach will work well with Diablo III.

me thinks that its a good idea for masteries
masteries could have level 1 - 30

level 1 - 5 could require you go kill about 60 monsters with a particular weapon type ( e.g. sword/axe/polearm etc)
6-10 120 , 11 - 15 400 and so on.

so the more you use the weapon , the better you get at it , in line with the concept of automatically assigning points to your stats. so swinging more with your hand axe at the start of the game , will make you more proficient with your berserker axe later in the game :thumbup:

[Grug]

Ehhh... something about it doesn't sit right with me. It just encourages focusing on one damage type to the exclusion of others, and Diablo 3 is supposed to be about variety (hence the 6-skill action bar).

PS. I have Order of Ecclesia. Good game.

[Srikandi]

The main problem with using a practice-based skill leveling system is that it limits the kinds of skills that can be in the game, because you have to tie every skill to some kind of character behavior. Consider a passive skill that increases speed... or one that adds poison damage to melee attacks. These don't correspond to any character action, they're always on, so they would level at the same rate whatever you did. Or consider buff/debuff skills that have a certain duration. The longer the duration, the less often you cast it. And some skills are often useful only situationally, against certain types of enemies for instance. How to you decide how to balance the rate at which those skills level?

In Morrowind, there's was a skill that increases when you run... but since most players run all the time, that skill tends to increase much faster than anything else. Spell skills on the other hand were very hard to level, since how often you can cast is limited by mana; and you will typically cast only in combat. (In fact it is possible in the Elder Scrolls system to level spells by casting repeatedly at the wall, but this rewards player behavior which is not fun and adds nothing to the game.) So even where you DO tie skills to character actions, it's very hard to balance the leveling rates, since different skills can be used at different rates.

Moreover, the ES games also have no skill dependencies. Imagine that you're trying to build an axe barb, but you can't find a decent axe, so you wind up leveling swords instead (cause that's what you're using)... which cuts off the whole axe skill tree from that point? Just as an example.

Then there's the issue of player reward. A lot of the fun of quick-and-dirty RPGs like Diablo is leveling and deciding what to do with that shiny skill point you just got.

I actually like practice-based skill systems in deep RPGs, but I don't think it would work well for Diablo. In big, deep RPGs the reward system comes from completing questlines and advancing the story and actually playing a role. In Diablo it's loot and points to spend.