View Full Version : not impressed with games current direction.played D series since sony playstation 1.
veteran player
10-02-2009, 04:35
i like the new story line and places in the new game.. but dislike the goofy giant oversized wow looking armor and the other arcade things like the floating health balls...potion pots in d2 were atleast less arcade. example forgotten realms or D&D. if u got hurt,theyre chars got hurt, what do you and them reach for?. a potion pot on youre belt..non arcade and real.
not a floating red cookie ball. rofl devilkins.
also no stat placement?...errr. ..cant believe that 1. had to look twice. even with a stats thing like theyre saying it still cuts a ton of possibilitys outta the game.
there goes the custom character builds like a melee sorc and most of the games playablity out the window right off the bat. maybe they changed something?. still way out on that one myself.
just give me the genius D2 again minus the bugs and spam bots since it was a record selling game unfiddled with and then call it D3. but. with the new stuff.
solved. oh and no wow stuff at all in it. NO wow anything. thanks for listing to my opinons.
Solstice
10-02-2009, 05:37
Your opinion is just like a lot of other people, yet those points got discussed and have a good reason to stay as they are. They also mentionned it will be more item-based and that stats shouldn't be that important, god knows how they will balance that. Hopefully they will do good work with Diablo III, as they did with any of their previous games.
It's been explained already about those "WoW-like" graphics. They do use those to allow lower-end computers to play the game, since it requires less memory than other engines (correct me if I'm wrong). With that being said, I do believe myself that it looks like WoW a little too much at some points at the moment, but those WoW impressions will probably be gone once you get to buy the game, even thought that will be in a while...
Bladewind
10-02-2009, 05:48
They also mentionned it will be more item-based and that stats shouldn't be that important, god knows how they will balance that.
More item based is a really bad idea. At least in current D2 you can get away with an untwinked necro summoner or even a dual ele sorc. D2 is already item based enough. Unless they can make some really dynamic changes to the drop system, making it more item based than D2 is really taking a huge risk.
Its hard to judge the game at this point because its still in an early Stage. Not to mention there is alot of develpoment going on that we havn't seen yet.
Mizantrop
10-02-2009, 08:16
also no stat placement?...errr. ..cant believe that 1. had to look twice. even with a stats thing like theyre saying it still cuts a ton of possibilitys outta the game.
there goes the custom character builds like a melee sorc and most of the games playablity out the window right off the bat. maybe they changed something?. still way out on that one myself.
This makes me want to make my first D3 char an awsome melee wizard (zizi) just to prove this point is mute.
Your opinion is just like a lot of other people, yet those points got discussed and have a good reason to stay as they are.
There are good reason to change them too.
This makes me want to make my first D3 char an awsome melee wizard (zizi) just to prove this point is mute.
Why don't you make one with manual stats after that. Seen the fact that you are at blizzard, it shouldn't be a problem to get such a version, no would it?
Well if its perfectly balanced to survive then it wouldnt really be a unique build. Like holy fire pallys with explosive arrow, or melee sorcs; builds like that require a lot of planning and are unique to almost every other character. Everything new introduced has a negative as well, people are even complaining about starcraft2 having autocast, and they are perfectly right. Streamlining everything does detract from the game, introducing content is one thing changing gameplay is another and I liked the grittiness of diablo 2.
stillman
10-02-2009, 11:09
For crying out loud, look at the wizards skills in the wiki. She's got all kinds of melee specific skills.
D3 is going to have a thousand times more customization potential than d2 had.
No one wants "the genius D2 again minus the bugs and spam bots." We want a new game.
KillaMike
10-02-2009, 11:51
For crying out loud, look at the wizards skills in the wiki. She's got all kinds of melee specific skills.
D3 is going to have a thousand times more customization potential than d2 had.
No one wants "the genius D2 again minus the bugs and spam bots." We want a new game.
i agree, if you have a look between d1 and d2 there are diference, would you call it same game? no. d2c and d2x, would you call them same even when evrything same but items that makes you do 4 times bigger dmg then in d2c? you would call that really same.
so why should D3 be same as D2? we want something new, so why you still ragging at d3 to be like d2? any way, we been promis a lot of expansion, let us see d3 then make HUGE set back list and post it back for expansion :coffee:
a black kid
10-02-2009, 13:12
what do you and them reach for?. a potion pot on youre belt..non arcade and real.
hahahahaha... sure, grabbing this bright red liquid, and chugging it after you've taken a dozen fireballs and arrows right to the face, makes you feel better magically. that's REAL?? do tell how.
if you dont like what they are doing with d3, dont buy it, no one is forcing you, and im sure millions of copies will sell easily wether you buy it or not.
want to play d2, but have it be 'different'?? then go play a damn mod, god knows theres tons of them out there (some of them are actually quite fun too i might add)
basically what you want is for sequels to not be a sequel, but to be the same game with new stuff... you know, thats called an expansion, not a sequel.
played D series since sony playstation
WTF. D series on Playstation?
Ouroboros
10-02-2009, 16:44
If you watch the class design panel video, the developers discuss how one of their main focus is to create classes with skills that opens up the possibility of multiple builds. As for stats, globes, WOW armor, there is going to be good with the bad. If u go through the blizzcon videos, you will hear the many many things the devs considered before settling on what they have right now. i had some gripes too, but consider myself educated now, and stand with the new choices made in D3.
Link: http://d3db.com/media/video/view/12
U can see the Wizard skill Blizzard at around 30 mins or so. Thanks to telzen for finding the link.
Doctor Salvador
10-02-2009, 21:56
WTF. D series on Playstation?
Diablo 1 was available for the Playstation.
Oh god.
Mana/Health Pots: The first few times they drop I'm sure you'll groan. Then you'll realize you aren't ever making trips back to town to buy more potions and playing the game a much smoother flow and then you'll forget about how horrible it is to you.
Looks like WoW: If by technical standards this is genius because WoW is beautiful yet pushes very little processing power. If by aesthetic...I'd have to say no. I played a lot of WoW and none of the dungeons were nearly as dark as what I have seen in the previews. Plus there is nothing from space that I've seen. When we see screen shots of a pink and grey dungeon then I'll say, "Yeah a bit too much WoW there." Honestly I think you're nit picking here but this is a topic that has been around since the minute DIII was announced and I don't want to beat a dead horse.
Arcadey feel: Diablo II is an action RPG. ACTION RPG. Adding concepts to make gameplay quicker (ORBS) is only going to help because this is a game that doesn't plod along ala Baldur's Gate. Nothing has changed here as far as design philosophy goes that I can see.
Your reasoning to make it the same but have more stuff is ridiculous.
"OMG. Maek it liek DII again! That game wuz gud...this isn't cuz it's different."
Hey! Wasn't Diablo II INCREDIBLY different from the first one? HMMMMMMMMMMMM!
Then again the boards are full of Diablo fans spewing ridiculous complaints...it's mind blowing. I've read many pre release RPG forums and EVERY SINGLE one always had a huge influx of "fans" complaining that it was new and different. It's this kind of mind set that makes me embarrassed to be a gamer.
@ Ouroboros: Oh man. Thanks for that link. Good stuff.
Bladewind
11-02-2009, 14:57
What is an action RPG without instant kill mobs ? That is fast paced action. ;)
I dislike the way D3 tries to make you feel like a "real hero" aka you can take more damage. In Diablo you WILL die quick. In D2, you get the occasional boss mob that has all the nasties to down you in 2 or 3 hits.
I want something along the lines like that for D3.
ThulRasha
11-02-2009, 15:38
solved. oh and no wow stuff at all in it. NO wow anything. thanks for listing to my opinons.
Why not? WoW has a lot of good ideas that can be used.
They would be crazy not to use it.
You didn't give a reason, so I will just asume you said it because you think that WoW hatin' makes you look cool.
sicilian
11-02-2009, 17:08
What is an action RPG without instant kill mobs ? That is fast paced action. ;)
I dislike the way D3 tries to make you feel like a "real hero" aka you can take more damage. In Diablo you WILL die quick. In D2, you get the occasional boss mob that has all the nasties to down you in 2 or 3 hits.
I want something along the lines like that for D3.
I agree with you, but did you play the demo at Blizzcon? I'd be interested to hear if it played like that in that version, because I really don't think we can take the gameplay vids as an accurate depiction of damage output, difficulty, etc.
For example, I'm pretty sure the Siegebreaker would be more devasting with its hits if the characters fighting it weren't doctored a bit for the sake of the demonstration.
chenghao
11-02-2009, 19:00
Your opinion is just like a lot of other people, yet those points got discussed and have a good reason to stay as they are. They also mentionned it will be more item-based and that stats shouldn't be that important, god knows how they will balance that. Hopefully they will do good work with Diablo III, as they did with any of their previous games.
It's been explained already about those "WoW-like" graphics. They do use those to allow lower-end computers to play the game, since it requires less memory than other engines (correct me if I'm wrong). With that being said, I do believe myself that it looks like WoW a little too much at some points at the moment, but those WoW impressions will probably be gone once you get to buy the game, even thought that will be in a while...
i would love it if there was an option to customise stats
on option between doing it for newbs automatically and advanced player chooseing to assign his stats as he wish
Rashiminos
11-02-2009, 20:16
Mana/Health Pots: The first few times they drop I'm sure you'll groan. Then you'll realize you aren't ever making trips back to town to buy more potions and playing the game a much smoother flow and then you'll forget about how horrible it is to you.
I'll say it again... You went back to town just to buy potions?
sicilian
11-02-2009, 20:30
I'll say it again... You went back to town just to buy potions?
I used to do that on occasion, but usually only in specific scenarios:
- I was experimenting with a build and it either wasn't going well or it was a late level bloomer (so i was using one point skills until I hit 30).
- I was playing a heavy caster but didn't want to put any points in energy. Early on in the game I would run out of mana and mana pots real early.
Neither of these were game breaking though. I don't have a problem with either system.
I'll say it again... You went back to town just to buy potions?
I think we all have. If you are playing an untwinked toon and fighting Baal on NM and you have less than optimal resists you are definitely going to have to go back to town a few times to get more potions. It's ridiculous.
The concept of ever picking up potions or even having to buy them will not be missed by me.
Such as fighting a MSLE mob and having to go through 4 or 5 and then having to pick up the pots that the mob drops slows the game considerably.
Rashiminos
11-02-2009, 21:03
I think we all have. If you are playing an untwinked toon and fighting Baal on NM and you have less than optimal resists you are definitely going to have to go back to town a few times to get more potions. It's ridiculous.
The concept of ever picking up potions or even having to buy them will not be missed by me.
Such as fighting a MSLE mob and having to go through 4 or 5 and then having to pick up the pots that the mob drops slows the game considerably.
Well now you're talking about bosses, which are somewhat different. Even then, depends on how you do the running. For regular areas, drops are enough, and they don't take that much time.
i like the new story line and places in the new game.. but dislike the goofy giant oversized wow looking armor and the other arcade things like the floating health balls...potion pots in d2 were atleast less arcade. example forgotten realms or D&D. if u got hurt,theyre chars got hurt, what do you and them reach for?. a potion pot on youre belt..non arcade and real.
I find shrines from D1/D2 to be very similar (actually the exact things) as "power up" items in arcade games. As for the armor, only the barbarian has the "goofy" oversized armor while the wizard and witchdoctor's armor are perfectly fine in size. The goofy oversized armor has a meaning, to bring out the look and attitude of a melee character, if my melee character is wearing a tight leotard I can't look at him like a warrior, and if he is wearing a small, thin, dull knight's armor I can't look at him like a hero.
also no stat placement?...errr. ..cant believe that 1. had to look twice. even with a stats thing like theyre saying it still cuts a ton of possibilitys outta the game.
There is stat placement. You get 1 or 2 stat points for free use per level up.
there goes the custom character builds like a melee sorc and most of the games playablity out the window right off the bat. maybe they changed something?. still way out on that one myself.
Not being able to unnaturally forge a role out of an unfitting character (ie melee sorc) is nothing to be upset about, it wasn't intended this way and would defeat the purpose of having characters with unique skills and abilities. If D2 has it, sure good if you're ever in the mood to experiment, if D3 doesn't then oh well it wasn't meant to be that way from the start.
just give me (That is just a selfish statement, you're not the only Diablo player) the genius D2 again minus the bugs and spam bots since it was a record selling game unfiddled with and then call it D3. but. with the new stuff.
"but. with the new stuff", you just dissed most of the major "new stuff" prior to this section of your post, what do you really want? Why not just make a big patch for D2 to fix all the bugs/spams, add new acts and new characters and charge it $50? You'll get the 100% D2 feel you want with some new twist. *sarcasm*
sicilian
11-02-2009, 22:36
There is stat placement. You get 1 or 2 stat points for free use per level up.
I've seen a few people mention this, but never saw it said in an interview or anything. Where did you hear this?
It's not true. someone suggested it, but it's not true. all stats auto-assigned.
i like the new story line and places in the new game.. but dislike the goofy giant oversized wow looking armor and the other arcade things like the floating health balls...potion pots in d2 were atleast less arcade. example forgotten realms or D&D. if u got hurt,theyre chars got hurt, what do you and them reach for?. a potion pot on youre belt..non arcade and real.
not a floating red cookie ball. rofl devilkins.
also no stat placement?...errr. ..cant believe that 1. had to look twice. even with a stats thing like theyre saying it still cuts a ton of possibilitys outta the game.
there goes the custom character builds like a melee sorc and most of the games playablity out the window right off the bat. maybe they changed something?. still way out on that one myself.
just give me the genius D2 again minus the bugs and spam bots since it was a record selling game unfiddled with and then call it D3. but. with the new stuff.
solved. oh and no wow stuff at all in it. NO wow anything. thanks for listing to my opinons.
Damn man, you're so right.
Y'ouve just made me realize that there will never have another game like DII.
This is a bad day for me, bad day...
Mizantrop
12-02-2009, 02:10
I agree with you, but did you play the demo at Blizzcon? I'd be interested to hear if it played like that in that version, because I really don't think we can take the gameplay vids as an accurate depiction of damage output, difficulty, etc.
For example, I'm pretty sure the Siegebreaker would be more devasting with its hits if the characters fighting it weren't doctored a bit for the sake of the demonstration.
The Blizzcon demo wasn't really how the game should have been at those levels. You start it at level 5 or 6 and that's a few levels above the monsters (at least it felt like it). I didn't really have any problem with health until later levels - when you start to get near the skeleton king. At this fight I had to chug a few potions (they do drop unlike what most people think) and play some cat and mouse with him (not even the barbie can "tank" him). Only time I died was when the demo time (~15 min) ended on me and I let my barbarian get cornered and killed by a bunch of skellies. That took a while as well, something like 6-7 hits.
Oh yeah. the demo heroes were definitely buffed.
veteran player
12-02-2009, 05:24
selfish?. nah. not when D2 sold like it did and was that popular.
theres a way to improve a series and a way to try to improve a series. what ive seen so far is the later. again i dont like WoW. ive tried it, and its not at all kin to the diablo series i liked. so thats why i said i didnt want to see any wow arcade in d3. turnip got it.
i would have bought the new game and lots of others would even if it had the same characters again. but with new skills or even some of the same old ones. the sore necro crowd would probly have 2. so in ending well see what they pull off with this new game.
i said it would be a very hard sell for them to top D2 because it was less arcade,visionary for its time and still today,flexable with builds,gritty and had something for everybody. i think i was right.
when i look at the current new-old bard in that giant wow looking ballon armor compared to my current fort wearing barb. i dont feel feel the part. again that d2"s genius.
but...i still havent give up on D3 totally. because when you look at the early videos of D2 it looked bad also.
i would love it if there was an option to customise stats
on option between doing it for newbs automatically and advanced player chooseing to assign his stats as he wish
When people say things like this do they understand why Blizzard decided to do this or are they under the impression that they are losing customisation and the ability to wield different weapons and armor?
I'm assuming that people just haven't read about the game and are making uninformed comments.
For those who are uninformed, the 3 main reasons they changed this are:
Balance. The developers are able to assume what range of stats players will have at each point along the game and are able to balance gameplay around this information.
Less confusion/chance to mess a character up. Even in Diablo 2 there was pretty much an optimal stat allocation for each build for each class, honestly the majority of the time you were under a false impression that you were in control of your customisation anyway.
Customisation has been redistributed throught the game in other areas. THERE ARE NO LONGER STAT REQUIREMENTS ON ITEMS. If you want to use a claymore to smash heads in on your Wizard you won't need to put points into Strength, apparently you can just augment your stats by equiping some pate armor with extra Strength on it.
I have full faith in Blizzards ability to eat up many more years of my life happily playing Diablo 3.
For those who are uninformed, the 3 main reasons they changed this are:
[LIST] Balance. The developers are able to assume what range of stats players will have at each point along the game and are able to balance gameplay around this information.
Less confusion/chance to mess a character up. Even in Diablo 2 there was pretty much an optimal stat allocation for each build for each class, honestly the majority of the time you were under a false impression that you were in control of your customisation anyway.
Customisation has been redistributed throught the game in other areas. THERE ARE NO LONGER STAT REQUIREMENTS ON ITEMS. If you want to use a claymore to smash heads in on your Wizard you won't need to put points into Strength, apparently you can just augment your stats by equiping some pate armor with extra Strength on it.
I totally agree.
About the tendency in diablo 2 of going to town for potions, it may appear to something natural to us as we were used to it, but for all the people i met that were "trying" to get into d2, going to town was the most annoying and boring part of the game.
sicilian
12-02-2009, 15:52
It's not true. someone suggested it, but it's not true. all stats auto-assigned.
That's what I thought. It's not a bad idea, but if you're going to do that you might as well make all the stats customizeable and make the subsequently factors increase a little on their own.
For example, each level you'll gain a little attack rating, a little defense, and a little health. If you want more of each, you need to add the stats.
I'm find with full auto stats though. They were always the least interesting custom option for me.
chenghao
12-02-2009, 16:25
When people say things like this do they understand why Blizzard decided to do this or are they under the impression that they are losing customisation and the ability to wield different weapons and armor?
I'm assuming that people just haven't read about the game and are making uninformed comments.
For those who are uninformed, the 3 main reasons they changed this are:
Balance. The developers are able to assume what range of stats players will have at each point along the game and are able to balance gameplay around this information.
Less confusion/chance to mess a character up. Even in Diablo 2 there was pretty much an optimal stat allocation for each build for each class, honestly the majority of the time you were under a false impression that you were in control of your customisation anyway.
Customisation has been redistributed throught the game in other areas. THERE ARE NO LONGER STAT REQUIREMENTS ON ITEMS. If you want to use a claymore to smash heads in on your Wizard you won't need to put points into Strength, apparently you can just augment your stats by equiping some pate armor with extra Strength on it.
I have full faith in Blizzards ability to eat up many more years of my life happily playing Diablo 3.
thanks for informing me , but i would still stick to the part of d2 that makes it likeable , the tinkering of characters to optimization of a variety of builds and no tweak characters that are far from optimized but very generalist , finding and using whatever he can get his hands on. i love this aspect of d2
anyway on point 3 ,
"THERE ARE NO LONGER STAT REQUIREMENTS ON ITEMS. If you want to use a claymore to smash heads in on your Wizard you won't need to put points into Strength, apparently you can just augment your stats by equiping some pate armor with extra Strength on it."
if there are no more stats requirements on items , then how would we know how much extra strength is necessary equip ? :scratchchin:
Mizantrop
12-02-2009, 16:31
if there are no more stats requirements on items , then how would we know how much extra strength is necessary equip ? :scratchchin:
He means extra str for extra dmg, not to use the item. and that's the plus side of no str/dex requirements on items. Even a wizard/WD can wear a full plate armor if they want. And it is more likely that this item would have +life/armor/repel dmg and so on, IF you want to play melee with those classes.
Doctor Salvador
12-02-2009, 22:01
thanks for informing me , but i would still stick to the part of d2 that makes it likeable , the tinkering of characters to optimization of a variety of builds and no tweak characters that are far from optimized but very generalist , finding and using whatever he can get his hands on. i love this aspect of d2
When I tinker with characters to optimize them, stats have nothing to do with it. Stats are the same for any character nowadays, even untwinked ones. Every character has enough strength for gear, enough dex for max block, and the rest in vita. My Conc Barb is the same as my Blizzard Sorc. The only build's that don't do this are not as efficient, and therefore, that is not customization, because there is one obvious right answer.
All the tinkering comes in with gear and skills, which have been improved with D3. Crappy level one skills are no more, gear is responsible for more things (such as more stats), and there will be a big ol' crapload of gear dropping, so you will most likely get what you want/need. And now we have runes which further alter skills.
Auto-Stats havn't gotten rid of customization, they've kept it the same, only now the dev's can balance better. Plus D3 has the runes, better skills, more gear, so customization has improved, not declined.
Demetrium
13-02-2009, 01:21
i like the new story line and places in the new game.. but dislike the goofy giant oversized wow looking armor and the other arcade things like the floating health balls...potion pots in d2 were atleast less arcade. example forgotten realms or D&D. if u got hurt,theyre chars got hurt, what do you and them reach for?. a potion pot on youre belt..non arcade and real.
not a floating red cookie ball. rofl devilkins.
also no stat placement?...errr. ..cant believe that 1. had to look twice. even with a stats thing like theyre saying it still cuts a ton of possibilitys outta the game.
there goes the custom character builds like a melee sorc and most of the games playablity out the window right off the bat. maybe they changed something?. still way out on that one myself.
just give me the genius D2 again minus the bugs and spam bots since it was a record selling game unfiddled with and then call it D3. but. with the new stuff.
solved. oh and no wow stuff at all in it. NO wow anything. thanks for listing to my opinons.
I would like just state for the record this is one of the dumbest things I've ever read. I would be happy if you decided not to play D3.
chenghao
13-02-2009, 04:42
When I tinker with characters to optimize them, stats have nothing to do with it. Stats are the same for any character nowadays, even untwinked ones. Every character has enough strength for gear, enough dex for max block, and the rest in vita. My Conc Barb is the same as my Blizzard Sorc. The only build's that don't do this are not as efficient, and therefore, that is not customization, because there is one obvious right answer.
All the tinkering comes in with gear and skills, which have been improved with D3. Crappy level one skills are no more, gear is responsible for more things (such as more stats), and there will be a big ol' crapload of gear dropping, so you will most likely get what you want/need. And now we have runes which further alter skills.
Auto-Stats havn't gotten rid of customization, they've kept it the same, only now the dev's can balance better. Plus D3 has the runes, better skills, more gear, so customization has improved, not declined.
i dunno about you , but when i already have all the best gears and i tinker , i do take into account the bonus stre/ dex that items give to wear the heaviest items / maximum block these points saved would translate to additional vita
what blizz is doing , is a paradigmic shift by d1 and d2 standards. auto stats shift the emphasis on character development to skills and gears
eventually , all characters with similar level , will only be differentiated by how they assign their skills and how they are named.
i dun like that , but its not like blizz will be taking a step back to cater to audiences like me
as you said , the focus is shifted to gears and skills , and eventually only gears as people understand the allocation for optimized skills
Knight_Wolf
13-02-2009, 06:59
as you said , the focus is shifted to gears and skills , and eventually only gears as people understand the allocation for optimized skills
There are already skills that affect you stats directly (or rather the outcome of your stats .. like attack rating, criticals and defense) .. a good example would be the Barbarian passive skill that makes each point in your STR stat more effective ... so [1] STR equals 6 DPS instead of 4 DPS for example .. getting the gear that enhances your STR will be the way to go if you want to complement that skill ... so there are still options for customization .. just in a more regulated and balanced way.
Also .. don't think that optimizing skills in D3 will be as easy as it was in D2 .. no way ... there are much more skills per class in D3 (way more than D2) and the skills are different in 2 ways also.
1-The can be augmented by various Runes
2-Many skills enhance and increase the effect of certain other skills or stats.
With all these points in mind the skills system in D3 will more than make up for the lack of manual stats ..even better ... it won't have any of its downsides .. not even one ... there is no ONE right answer when it comes to skills .. specially if you have 60 or more skills out of which 6 skills you can use on the fly at any time.:scratchchin:
veteran player
13-02-2009, 16:02
well ya know what they say about opinons demetrium.
id be happy if you didnt play it either. cause i can already tell.
so there ya go.
now a lot say the auto stats assign will work and indeed it prob will. but...just have to wait and see i guess.
i just hope blizz isnt like some other game makers i used to love who lost a lot of theyre orginal game delevopement team. because when that happened, the games quality went down.
Srikandi
19-02-2009, 06:24
the games quality went down.
Typically, with each new entry in a series, some prefer the new to the old, and some prefer the old to the new. There's no objective measure of "quality" (unless of course we're talking about bugs and testing, where companies do indeed vary considerably. Still, most players prefer a game they find fun with bugs to a game they find boring without bugs).
I remember well how when D2 came out, we heard these same dire warnings about sequels and "OMG it's not exactly the same", and yet D2 was vastly more popular than D1.
And I also remember well how when Morrowind came out, it was "zOMG no horses, like in Daggerfall! zOMG no climbing! zOMG no ropes! zOMG no virtually infinite world!" But when Oblivion came out, the whole new generation were complaining that there were changes from Morrowind.
Personally I felt Morrowind was the best game of the three (never played Arena). I liked the quirkiness of the plot line, the exoticism of the setting, and the fact that nothing was ever really resolved ;) But others have other favorites, and I respect everybody's views :) What I tend not to have so much admiration for is the folks that think their personal preference is the "correct" one :/
BTW, on the subject of auto stats -- I want to go on record as saying I have no opinion :D I believe that makes me unique!
mince pies
19-02-2009, 16:41
oh and no wow stuff at all in it. NO wow anything.
World of Warcraft (http://wirelessdigest.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/world_of_warcraft_1.jpg)
Diablo III (http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2008/181/930659_20080630_screen004.jpg)
Wow, you're right - they both look so similar /end sarcasm
This makes me want to make my first D3 char an awsome melee wizard (zizi) just to prove this point is mute.
there is still no official word of blizz about if it will be doable like in D2....and remember that blizzcon was there to SHOW the game...not the exact format of the game...there is alots of stuff that will change in the full game imo...but i hope you're right
also A black kid and other people saying similar crap you might as well say nothing you just sound like you just want a game that as the name Diablo 3 to it and dont care how it end up and seriously you're reply a black kid just sounded like you were mental or something....i actually want a quality game and i think everyone else does also
veteran player as either already made up is mind(if so i dont reallly see why he is posting here) or like im thinking dont realise how the mechanic work so far and how some still will probly change
like potion from what i heard from alots of people potion are still in...you just wont have ton of them like in D2...they will be pretty rare from what i see and the orb drop is just to save us the trip to town...and yes it does sound like they turned it into easy mode for WoW bunch of retard but i still think they can pull it off..its not that bad
the armor seriously i have no problem and i played WoW alots and hate it the most now...turned a beautifull game with diversity and reward to an easy mode with everyone looking the same in the end and thinking they are all awesome...there is no sense of accomplishment left...but the armor so far are FAR from WoW armor imo...they made them a bit bigger and brighter to show us what each player wear imo(hinting that armor have tons of look compared to D2 which would really be a nice change)
no stat is a bit arsh for me to but if rumor are right and armor have no stat in the full game maybe this could work out...i really hope customization on skill is really well balanced compared to D2 though
also if you look at the new vid compared to the old one thing were much brighter in the early build...now its much darker and alots more blood and gore
so stuff can change remember
Solstice:"It's been explained already about those "WoW-like" graphics. They do use those to allow lower-end computers to play the game, since it requires less memory than other engines (correct me if I'm wrong). With that being said, I do believe myself that it looks like WoW a little too much at some points at the moment, but those WoW impressions will probably be gone once you get to buy the game, even thought that will be in a while..."
like Solstice said its probly will be more Diablo like in the end....i really hope they arent trying to bring the WoW crowd in with a stupid graphic trick like that...if they do do this though il be really really pissed off and disapointed
the only thing im really scared about today is about everyone looking the same in the end...its wierd cause there is alots of people that look the same in D2...but not that much also....
anyway keep your hope up...i even didint get my necro back(yiet :P) and im still overexcited about being able to continue the story of Diablo
Deckard Cain
20-02-2009, 19:08
I'm 100% on veteran player's side. i hate all the new ideas ever included into the diablo series. I hated how they gave classes different spells in diablo 2. The run feature is such a joke take it off. Can they please put the duping glitch back in the game plzzzz. They should just package the original diablo with diablo 2 inside of a D3 box (1+2 = 3 duh!) because i loved those games, and they were perfect. I want to play the exact same game that i have been playing for 10 years. :alright:
Coleridge
20-02-2009, 19:17
I want to play the exact same game that i have been playing for 10 years. :alright:
So what's your problem? Stay with diablo/diablo 2 then.
Deckard Cain
20-02-2009, 19:43
yeah sorry i forgot to mention that my post was sarcasm...
Srikandi
21-02-2009, 09:46
ROFL -- and yet another victim of ISF bites the dust!
(ISF = Internet Sarcasm Failure)
Yeah I thought the same as Coleridge until I read the "can they please put the duping glitch back into the game plzzzz".
Its nice to read the entire post once in awhile :thumbsup:
Doctor Salvador
22-02-2009, 03:15
there is still no official word of blizz about if [melee wizards] will be doable like in D2....and remember that blizzcon was there to SHOW the game...not the exact format of the game...there is alots of stuff that will change in the full game imo...but i hope you're right
Blizz has done pretty much everything except say 'Melee Wizards will work well in D3' to make sure that melee wizards will work in D3. The Wizard has several skills which seem to be made specifically for melee combat, and many that will be useful for melee combat: Storm/Arcane/Temporal/Power/Conjured armor, stone skin, lethal energy, weapon mastery, damage resistance, conjured health . . . I'd keep going but it's getting redundant. I won't be surprised if melee wizards are tremendously popular for their killing ability alone.
Edit: After further reviewing the Wizard's skill trees, it is my opinion that the melee Wizard won't merely be a preferred build, but that it is utterly meant to be a melee/magic hybrid. After even further thinking, it is also of my opinion that because of the Wizard taking up the role of melee/magic, that a class like the Paladin won't be necessary in the first batch of five characters.
sicilian
24-02-2009, 22:23
Blizz has done pretty much everything except say 'Melee Wizards will work well in D3' to make sure that melee wizards will work in D3. The Wizard has several skills which seem to be made specifically for melee combat, and many that will be useful for melee combat: Storm/Arcane/Temporal/Power/Conjured armor, stone skin, lethal energy, weapon mastery, damage resistance, conjured health . . . I'd keep going but it's getting redundant. I won't be surprised if melee wizards are tremendously popular for their killing ability alone.
Edit: After further reviewing the Wizard's skill trees, it is my opinion that the melee Wizard won't merely be a preferred build, but that it is utterly meant to be a melee/magic hybrid. After even further thinking, it is also of my opinion that because of the Wizard taking up the role of melee/magic, that a class like the Paladin won't be necessary in the first batch of five characters.
Not necessarily. I see a lot of the wizard's "melee" skills as simply being short range magic skills, not necessarily based on the weapons or melee combat. Sure there are some, but most are just spells that require you to be close.
It's still entirely possible that there will be a class that focuses on melee combat (using a weapon) and uses magic for support. Doesn't have to be a paladin of course, but it a similar sword and shield plus buffs type class.
Knight_Wolf
24-02-2009, 23:24
Not necessarily. I see a lot of the wizard's "melee" skills as simply being short range magic skills, not necessarily based on the weapons or melee combat. Sure there are some, but most are just spells that require you to be close.
Actually most of the melee skills the Wizard has are made for either increasing defense or enhancing actual weapons (swords, bows).
sicilian
25-02-2009, 19:21
Actually most of the melee skills the Wizard has are made for either increasing defense or enhancing actual weapons (swords, bows).
Yeah, just took a second look. I'm on drugs :P
Seems odd to me though... to make a character that is capable of being a mage-knight hybrid OR a nuking caster type. Perhaps they're really trying not to pidgeon-hole any of the classes?
Brother Laz
25-02-2009, 20:08
what do you and them reach for?. a potion pot on youre belt..non arcade and real.
Yes, because drinking a potion instantly and in combat is realistic. It is so realistic in fact that it doesn't matter that the game turns into potion spam (or leech spam if you can leech) because the sheer realism of it overwhelms all.
there goes the custom character builds like a melee sorc and most of the games playablity out the window right off the bat.
Indeed! Instead of using normal attack and radically spending your points for max block/rest into vita instead of max block/rest into vita, you get to use a few melee combat skills that are enhanced by spellpower. The build is ruined now!
......
i dunno about you , but when i already have all the best gears and i tinker , i do take into account the bonus stre/ dex that items give to wear the heaviest items / maximum block these points saved would translate to additional vita
Grats. Now if you don't have the best 'gears', then you're forced to spend more into those stats. Making your character inferior once you have the best items.
Yay. Reroll time.
In Median I did make strength and dex add a significant amount of extra damage and energy also adds spell damage. The result: everyone puts all of their points into str if they are a melee fighter, and dex for items/rest into enr if they are a caster. There is always an optimal stat allocation. It's inevitable.
eventually , all characters with similar level , will only be differentiated by how they assign their skills and how they are named.
As if any hammerdin with HotO/Enigma is different from the next.
It is impossible to have perfect balance because this is an unstable equilibrium; the slightest advantage for one skill/item/build will cause the balance to swing entirely that way. Remember early D2 and the Blizzard/FO discussion, which was after a while decided in favour of FO and suddenly everyone started using FO and claiming Bliz was useless?
So once people figure out which build and what items are slightly better, everyone will play only that build.
as you said , the focus is shifted to gears and skills , and eventually only gears as people understand the allocation for optimized skills
As if there isn't an 'allocation for optimized stats' as well. The only thing stats really do is force the player to read a guide to spend them the counterintuitive 'right' way, otherwise their character is gimped, and force him to reroll if he finds better +stat items or something like Frostburn pre-LoD.
Diablo for me is about story lines and funn . :)
they allways manage to get it rightt .
i sayy leave it to them to what they wannah do .
Farmrush
26-02-2009, 19:29
It seems to me a lot of people are taking things like 'no stat allocation', apply it to Diablo II, and then assuming this is what Diablo III will be like. I don't understand their justification for such leaps.
Yes, because drinking a potion instantly and in combat is realistic. It is so realistic in fact that it doesn't matter that the game turns into potion spam (or leech spam if you can leech) because the sheer realism of it overwhelms all.
I think you have a bit difficulty grasping the concept of what could be considered believable, making sense, being regarded as "real", within the world of say Diablo (namely alchemical potions that you can drink to "heal" a portion of life with) and what does not make sense at all (namely "orbs" somehow falling out of the bodies of undead/demons whenever they die to somehow heal you with their supposedly "good" magical attributes, or however you would explain the utter arcade of health orbs). Secondly, health potions do not per defintion mean spammable instant healing potions, they could make potions have a somewhat other mechanic, you know, or is it somehow impossible to make potions heal over time and not be spammable?
Indeed! Instead of using normal attack and radically spending your points for max block/rest into vita instead of max block/rest into vita, you get to use a few melee combat skills that are enhanced by spellpower. The build is ruined now!
You're sarcasm doesn't delude me into thinking you actually know anything about game mechanics and balancing seeing that it is actually possible to create a stat system where "str for gear/dex for max block/rest into vit/none in energy" isn't always the best statplacement 99% of the time. (*gasp*/sarcasm)
Grats. Now if you don't have the best 'gears', then you're forced to spend more into those stats. Making your character inferior once you have the best items.
Yay. Reroll time.
See above for some well needed common sense.
In Median I did make strength and dex add a significant amount of extra damage and energy also adds spell damage. The result: everyone puts all of their points into str if they are a melee fighter, and dex for items/rest into enr if they are a caster. There is always an optimal stat allocation. It's inevitable.
For every build? Or are you just a poor liar?
As if any hammerdin with HotO/Enigma is different from the next.
It is impossible to have perfect balance because this is an unstable equilibrium; the slightest advantage for one skill/item/build will cause the balance to swing entirely that way. Remember early D2 and the Blizzard/FO discussion, which was after a while decided in favour of FO and suddenly everyone started using FO and claiming Bliz was useless?
So once people figure out which build and what items are slightly better, everyone will play only that build.
Gratz on failing to counter argue his point. You might as well argue in favor of having no customization at all because, to quote you again, "once people figure out which build and what items are slightly better, everyone will play only that build" anyways. The perfect non-argument. *sigh*
As if there isn't an 'allocation for optimized stats' as well. The only thing stats really do is force the player to read a guide to spend them the counterintuitive 'right' way, otherwise their character is gimped, and force him to reroll if he finds better +stat items or something like Frostburn pre-LoD.
Read above.
Knight_Wolf
27-02-2009, 13:10
Gratz on failing to counter argue his point. You might as well argue in favor of having no customization at all because, to quote you again, "once people figure out which build and what items are slightly better, everyone will play only that build" anyways. The perfect non-argument. *sigh*
No one argued for the favor of having no customization ... actually all the D2 elitists are arguing for unneeded easily exploitable customization.
There is no comparison between how easily you can setup your stats and how hard it is to setup your skills or gear right.
There are only 4 stats to play around with ... and there will always be the easy way of maximizing one or two of them ... but how many skills are there for each character ... more than 50 ... how many items can this character wear ... hundreds, now how many combinations for different skills .. countless .. how many combinations of items .. countless .. how many combinations of items+skills+runes .... COUNTLESS .. it might be exploited but that's very very hard to do without some very detailed guide and tons of hours spent finding the rights items.
ON the other hand .. to exploit stats ... spam the stat button every level up ... voila ... you are giving exploiters the OK to mess the game balance .. way to go. :wave:
Kiroptus
27-02-2009, 13:51
I dont know why this complaint about auto-stats, you still can control how much stats you gain because the items now will come with hefty stats bonus. The only diference now is that you have a balanced base stat template (that is compatible with your character: Barb, Witchdoc or Wiz) which is something that wasnt present when players controlled the stats. All you have to do now is to expand your stats in this template. There is nothing to worry about.
Plus D2's character build was all about the skills, even if you mess up your stats; items and skills could still save your character from a reroll, dont talk as if stats were such a huge deal when all EVERYONE here did was to put all in vit, nothing or just enough for max block in dex, enough str to wear stuff and nothing in energy. Stats never played such a big and deep role in diablo anyways so it just boogles my mind why this is the "hot complaint topic" about Diablo 3 when a much more interesting system as the new runes was already announced.
I dont know why this complaint about auto-stats, you still can control how much stats you gain because the items now will come with hefty stats bonus. The only diference now is that you have a balanced base stat template (that is compatible with your character: Barb, Witchdoc or Wiz) which is something that wasnt present when players controlled the stats. All you have to do now is to expand your stats in this template. There is nothing to worry about.
Plus D2's character build was all about the skills, even if you mess up your stats; items and skills could still save your character from a reroll, dont talk as if stats were such a huge deal when all EVERYONE here did was to put all in vit, nothing or just enough for max block in dex, enough str to wear stuff and nothing in energy. Stats never played such a big and deep role in diablo anyways so it just boogles my mind why this is the "hot complaint topic" about Diablo 3 when a much more interesting system as the new runes was already announced.
/agree
The stats in diablo were nothing more than a formality so this new system only saves people who misjudged how much str they needed to put on the storm shield or item X. I even remember having boots with STR or Dex that I would put on so that I could equip another item and then replacing the boots with something else. From what i have seen, this new system only allows for a player to more extensively customize their character to their game play style.
So far, I am quite pleased with the direction of Diablo 3.
sicilian
27-02-2009, 17:13
I think you have a bit difficulty grasping the concept of what could be considered believable, making sense, being regarded as "real", within the world of say Diablo (namely alchemical potions that you can drink to "heal" a portion of life with) and what does not make sense at all (namely "orbs" somehow falling out of the bodies of undead/demons whenever they die to somehow heal you with their supposedly "good" magical attributes, or however you would explain the utter arcade of health orbs). Secondly, health potions do not per defintion mean spammable instant healing potions, they could make potions have a somewhat other mechanic, you know, or is it somehow impossible to make potions heal over time and not be spammable?
Spamming aside, to me the idea of physically drinking a bottle of something while being simultaneously bashed by 10-20 monsters isn't any more "believable" than the idea that you're feeding off the energy of your kills. Hell, you could even argue that the orbs are a representation of your character's own adrenaline of combat, which helps you survive. I think of in-game health as less of a number and more of a general state of mind and body.
Always going back to how imbalanced stats were in D2 aren't we? Do i really need to explain to you all half of why stat placement in D2 was useless was due to how items gave you so many stat bonuses? (the other half due to how strength gave you close to zero benefits apart from wearing stuff, same with dex and max block, same with energy apart from ES and obviously 95% of all skills were based on items anyways making stats play a very marginal role) So, the solution overcoming this balance problem is getting rid of stats and focusing even more on giving items stat bonuses? Thats a joke right? I mean, what is the freaking point of replacing stat placement with items which give you stat bonuses if stats themselves are indeed useless apart from again wearing items and all the usual? Does seriously none see this glaring paradox?
Kiroptus
27-02-2009, 17:41
Items have no stats requirement now. Stats are just to improve your character so its important to have a base balanced template of pre-defined stats that match your chosen character so you can improve upon that, with items or whatever extra customization option we have avaliable (they said that there is more customization options to be announced).
The thing is that, nothing was really lost, except the chance to screw your character.
So stats are even more useless? And you all honestly have no objection against that? Seriously? How in the world is it possible to note the imbalance of stats in D2 and how they meant little and at the same time not even having the slightest doubt D3 won't be worse, let alone having the skepticism it will be somehow magically better just by emphasizing stat bonuses on items more, getting rid of stat reqs for items (making stats thus even marginal meaningful compared to D2) and disallowing the player to actually develop them how (s)he see fit. Doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
Maybe i'm weird that way, but i actually expect the game to improve not merely "having lost nothing". (although thats a lie, but whatever right)
Kiroptus
27-02-2009, 18:14
Stats have much more interaction with the skills now. See the skill tree for barb and wizard. So you will be wanting stats anyway, for extra damage on spells, more regeneration, etc... Stats are not useless at all, they are the basis of improving your character and now with skills interacting with the stats values, you will want to improve them.
Then why always go back to how stats worked in D2 whenever someone criticizes or questions not having manual stat placement in D3? Did you see what i did there?
Plus, i don't see any reason to take any ones word for it that stats will indeed not be as flawed as in D2 and instead actually mean something, the undisputed fact that we won't be having manual stat placement kinda contradicts that assumption/belief based on mere promises.
sicilian
27-02-2009, 19:04
Then why always go back to how stats worked in D2 whenever someone criticizes or questions not having manual stat placement in D3? Did you see what i did there?
Plus, i don't see any reason to take any ones word for it that stats will indeed not be as flawed as in D2 and instead actually mean something, the undisputed fact that we won't be having manual stat placement kinda contradicts that assumption/belief based on mere promises.
I don't see any reason NOT to take them at their word. And I'm not really sure what you mean with your last sentence. Are you saying because they broke some imaginary promise to you about manual stats that you now think they're lying about stats being useful? Really?
Kiroptus
27-02-2009, 19:10
But the problem is, most players will never find a balanced template for their characters. One might start pumping too much vit and the other will want too much willpower to do more damage, etc... and with both extremes both types of players might find frustration in their journey.
Those manual stats changes would require a "stat respec option" (since respec is in with the skills) which is a bit cumbersome imo. We dont know what other customization options the d3 developers have in their sleeve, maybe we get free sockets on most items to put gems to increase stats which are pretty much like a manual stat with a chance to reroll back if the results were not good.
D2's stats were a failure in terms of customization. The auto-stats from D3 wont hinder anyone from doing anything that you could do in D2. I am even guessing that most stats wont even come from the base stats that are auto-assigned but from the gear itself, the base auto-assigned stat will be just enough to play your character balanced and without too much frustration. After this, its up to the player to expand their preferrable stats that match their style.
The thing is that, I dont see the HUUUGGEE plus that manual stats offer or used to offer. In D2 we rely on gear and skills to survive, there are items that gives tons of health, something equivalent to like what? 50 pts in vit in case of items that can offer +100 life. If anything, its just like D2 was except that now we actually have more control of what numbers are improving our character by manipulating gear and not only with a "+" button that can be rolled back.
Bladewind
27-02-2009, 19:24
One might start pumping too much vit and the other will want too much willpower to do more damage, etc... and with both extremes both types of players might find frustration in their journey.
Absolute bull.
I have made enough Pure dex amazons in D2 with only 400 life (a single gloam lightning can easily kill me). Not a single point to vita my and resistances are all in the near red in the "1 hit you die" happy D2 Lod. And I still doing Hell Chaos run in MF gear, I run at least 10 to 15 times a day (I am a casual player with limited 2 to 3 hours play time) and have being doing so for almost 3 weeks now without seeing the big red sign that I am dead.
If you cannot match up and go all the way, I suggest you to get more skilled.
D3 is going to be even easier as monsters will do far less damage than in D2 as Blizzard wanted to remove the 1 hit KO mobs in D3.
Kiroptus
27-02-2009, 19:32
So? In D3 just focus on items that give +dex (for the unnannounced archer class) and ignore vit items. You now the same situation that you so skillfully handled.
Bladewind
27-02-2009, 19:36
But that is beside the point. I want ALL points in Dex. The extra strength, vita and willpower only serve to REMOVE potential damage from my build. Same for a pure vit build or titan build. Those points they auto-assigned for us can be made better use by the players themselves.
There is nothing broken about that. To overcome the penalties for doing so, the player will naturally get more skilled to do so.
And no, D3 won't be the same as D2. Blizz is making it a lot easier with no instant kill mobs and those fixed points into vita will only make things even easier.
Edit:
Assuming the archer class gets
1 str
3 dex
1 vita
1 wp
per level.
At lvl80 I would have lost 237 points that can could have went into dex. In current D2 that is equal of me losing 237% ED (assuming 1 dex = 1% ED). That is a lot of damage lost and is unacceptable for glass cannon mindset players.
sicilian
27-02-2009, 19:41
But that is beside the point. I want ALL points in Dex. The extra strength, vita and willpower only serve to REMOVE potential damage from my build. Same for a pure vit build or titan build. Those points they auto-assigned for us can be made better use by the players themselves.
There is nothing broken about that. To overcome the penalties for doing so, the player will naturally get more skilled to do so.
And no, D3 won't be the same as D2. Blizz is making it a lot easier with no instant kill mobs and those fixed points into vita will only make things even easier.
Under the exact system that D2 used, sure. But we don't know exactly what's going to make a "good" build in D3, so maybe putting ALL your points into one stat would completely gimp your character no matter how you handled it. We just don't know enough yet.
Bladewind
27-02-2009, 19:45
Yes but who cares ? The game is going to be easier, says so Blizz. No more one hit kill mobs. But I am sure leeching is gone as well.
But as a long time glass zon player, I realize that I should never in a situation where I desperately need leech to survive, super uniques and all bosses must die or at least distracted by something before they even appear on my screen to attack me because with my hp and blood red resist, I won't even survive the first hit, yet alone tank and leech off them.
sicilian
27-02-2009, 19:58
Yes but who cares ? The game is going to be easier, says so Blizz. No more one hit kill mobs. But I am sure leeching is gone as well.
But as a long time glass zon player, I realize that I should never in a situation where I desperately need leech to survive, super uniques and all bosses must die or at least distracted by something before they even appear on my screen to attack me because with my hp and blood red resist, I won't even survive the first hit, yet alone tank and leech off them.
Removing one-hit mobs doesn't necessarily make the game easier for everyone. What it does is remove the inconsistent difficulty. In D2, you would be cruising, and I mean absolutely CRUISING for two, three, four areas in a row. Never quaffing a potion, never getting below 3/4 health, feeling like, "Hmmm, am I overpowered? Am I THAT good? Is the game broken?"
Then BAM! You get hit with an Iron Maiden curse. or BAM! Gloams (which were not just a problem for your glass zon, they were for everyone). I think what they're trying to do is make the action and difficulty a real concern all the time by adding more consistently powerful mobs, but none of those crazy situations where you don't even have time to react. Doesn't make it easier, just evens the difficulty out a bit.
Kiroptus
27-02-2009, 20:00
Ugh, why is the game going to be easier? D2 had OHK monsters because if it didnt have that, the game would be downright PATHETIC. As you could spam heal potions and return to town whenver you wanted, even on boss fights. Now TPs are out, Potions are out, and the only way to recover life in a continuous state is by picking up orbs that might be close to the enemies (or using a potion but it has a big cooldown and its rare to find) putting yourself in danger.
If anything, D3 will be far more challenging, the only moments D2 felt challenging were also the moment the game felt cheap with their OHK monsters.
Potions are still in, but on a cooldown timer. Orbs were added so you would go to the next fight without waiting for potions to be ready.
Kiroptus
27-02-2009, 20:05
Potions are now an emergency heal, the consistent way of healing now is through the orbs, so you will need to put yourself in danger to grab them. Especially with you are a ranged character like the archer.
korialstraz
27-02-2009, 20:09
@Kiroptus: How do you know potions are on such a big cooldown? Imo it's way too early to tell if the cooldown will be very big or not :P
Bladewind
27-02-2009, 20:10
Orbs drop from dead enemies. The moment you have time to heal from the orb means they are already dead. But then again, the normal D2 / D3 mechanics don't apply to a glass cannon build.
I mean what is there to heal or leech when the hit instantly kills you ?
Your argument will work for a class that is always in the thick of things like barb and probably the unnamed support melee char but it will not necessarily apply to glass cannon or ranged types who are not supposed to get hit in the first place.
If you get trapped and die, it is really your fault anyway. If you get hit, again it is your fault.
It seems like for glass cannons, orbs are to be grabbed after the fight is over, to be ready for the next. But it sounds exciting to realize that you're low on health and you have to make a dash to the orb, using teleport or slow time or mirror image to not get eaten.
Kiroptus
27-02-2009, 20:17
@Kiroptus: How do you know potions are on such a big cooldown? Imo it's way too early to tell if the cooldown will be very big or not :P
Logic. JW said that they want to have the orbs as the main source of healing. If the potions' cooldown is too low, we are back to potionfest again which was the reason the orbs were created: to avoid the potionfest system that infected every ARPG. It would be a nerfed potionfest but a potionfest nonetheless.
I mean what is there to heal or leech when the hit instantly kills you ?
If the hit instantly kill you, you just didnt build your character right. D3 is aiming to make the characters being hit more often and being more into the battle. Is a glass canon character completely out of the picture? I think not, but you will need to be using more distracting/mobility skills to reach the orbs because you cannot count only on potions. If the archer requires mana to use his/her skills, then there will be a time that you are out of mana, you might have killed some monsters but there are still some tought monsters around. If the orbs are near from the monsters you killed, you have to pick them to continue the battle.
The barb got leap and charge to be move nicely enough to grab the orbs, the sorcs has teleport and some freezing skills, witchdoc can scare monsters away with horrify, etc... whatever has your glass canon up to his/her sleeve we have yet to see but this is the new thing with D3, you WILL have to throw yourself in the fray.
Bladewind
27-02-2009, 20:22
Iron maiden, gloams, 1.09 bugged MSLE, 1.07 bugged FE CS LE are consider unavoidable at times.
And not to worry about mana. I play archers (fave class), sometimes, normal attack will suffice. Like the lovely Rogues of D1. ;) And throwing yourself into the fray go against the spirit for most ranged chars. They are given longer range than some spells but I am sure certain spells will make a return, like slow missiles. ;)
Kiroptus
27-02-2009, 20:31
slow missiles's concept was put in Wizard's timedome (forget the name). Certainly the archers will have a way to get into the fray safely, after all the point of the archer is to stay at bay. Maybe he/she will have a grappling hook or rope/whip skill that can grab orbs in a distance.
The possibilities are countless, Blizzard has to find the right way for it, an archer is a glass canon in concept already, if they plan to build a class with that (which is pretty much certain) then surely she will have the skills to support that play.
korialstraz
27-02-2009, 20:31
Logic. JW said that they want to have the orbs as the main source of healing. If the potions' cooldown is too low, we are back to potionfest again which was the reason the orbs were created: to avoid the potionfest system that infected every ARPG. It would be a nerfed potionfest but a potionfest nonetheless.
Or... limit numbers of potions you are able to use as well as removing them from shops. Now they don't drop often and since you can carry a limited number of pots you wouldn't want to spam them away. Though I can definately see a timer being added, but nothing that would be too long. It would go against what they are trying to, which is keeping compat fast paced.
Kiroptus
27-02-2009, 20:35
Potions are just to be found in drops I think and they are quite rare (I think the vendors dont even sell them). Plus I think you can carry a lot of potions right? I mean the inventory is no longer tetris and the reagents/potions stack so a considerable cooldown is needed to not fall into potionfest again.
And the combat is fast paced with the orbs alone, so much that you must kill to recover yourself. The potions are just an emergency heal as far as I can tell.
korialstraz
27-02-2009, 20:36
I'd agree to that, but there are other ways of solving it which is my point. It doesn't have to have a long cooldown to solve the potionfest that D2 is.
I don't see any reason NOT to take them at their word. And I'm not really sure what you mean with your last sentence. Are you saying because they broke some imaginary promise to you about manual stats that you now think they're lying about stats being useful? Really?
I think you misread me, what i was trying to say is that the statement Blizzard will make stats "meaningful" (in comparison to D2) directly contradicts with Blizzard taking stat placement out of the game. Logically, you see.
Thus i see no reason to just take any ones word for it (whether it be Blizzard or a fan) when the facts seem to suggest something else entirely.
But the problem is, most players will never find a balanced template for their characters. One might start pumping too much vit and the other will want too much willpower to do more damage, etc... and with both extremes both types of players might find frustration in their journey.
And if that argument doesn't work, which it doesn't, then you can still argue its as simple as following a guide anyways right, thus not needing to have manual stat placement. Whatever argument (which obviously contradict each other) is the most convenient.
Those manual stats changes would require a "stat respec option" (since respec is in with the skills) which is a bit cumbersome imo.
Well it wouldn't would it. I'm against respec anyways, unless there's a hefty price to be payed for it, and if there is then whats the trouble doing this for stats to.
We dont know what other customization options the d3 developers have in their sleeve, maybe we get free sockets on most items to put gems to increase stats which are pretty much like a manual stat with a chance to reroll back if the results were not good.
Entirely besides the point. Plus, is that what items are for? Namely increasing ones stats? Please.
D2's stats were a failure in terms of customization. The auto-stats from D3 wont hinder anyone from doing anything that you could do in D2. I am even guessing that most stats wont even come from the base stats that are auto-assigned but from the gear itself, the base auto-assigned stat will be just enough to play your character balanced and without too much frustration. After this, its up to the player to expand their preferrable stats that match their style.
And we're back again how manual stat placement in D2 was a failure. Now please, redirect me to that stone where it is written that manual stat placement should in all cases follow D2's balancing to the letter. That stone is nowhere to be found though.
Obviously auto-stats will limit the player concerning customization compared to manual stats, no matter how much customization items will provide or whatever is besides the point. (and personally something i do not wish to see, namely stats depending mostly on what items you wear, thats not the function items should have and thats not the development a character should have)
The thing is that, I dont see the HUUUGGEE plus that manual stats offer or used to offer. In D2 we rely on gear and skills to survive, there are items that gives tons of health, something equivalent to like what? 50 pts in vit in case of items that can offer +100 life. If anything, its just like D2 was except that now we actually have more control of what numbers are improving our character by manipulating gear and not only with a "+" button that can be rolled back.
Sigh, i'm not going to repeat myself.
Mad Mantis
27-02-2009, 20:57
Sigh, i'm not going to repeat myself.
I'm going to have to give you credit for keeping it up this long. Rest assured that you are not the only "D2 Elitist" questioning this move and trying to get others to see why it is a bad idea.
sicilian
27-02-2009, 21:05
I'm going to have to give you credit for keeping it up this long. Rest assured that you are not the only "D2 Elitist" questioning this move and trying to get others to see why it is a bad idea.
It can't be called a good or bad idea with knowing exactly how things are going to work. I really don't care which way they go, I just don't think this is the doom and gloom end of customization that some people are making it out to be. Not until I know more.
Mad Mantis
27-02-2009, 21:24
It can't be called a good or bad idea with knowing exactly how things are going to work.
Of course it can. It just means that there is a chance that we are wrong about it and we might have to adjust our opinion.
I really don't care which way they go, I just don't think this is the doom and gloom end of customization that some people are making it out to be. Not until I know more.
Some of us aren't arguing that it will be the end of customization. That is part of what is so frustrating about this debate. Half the time you get the feeling people aren't even reading your specific post. If they are reading your post they manage to say in almost the same sentence: "The game doesn't have to be like D2 since this is D3 so we don't need manual stats, but if they were in the game they would function exactly as in D2 since this is D3 and it will have to be exactly like D2."
sicilian
27-02-2009, 21:53
Of course it can. It just means that there is a chance that we are wrong about it and we might have to adjust our opinion.
I don't see much of that attitude from a lot of people. I think that's a much more balanced way of looking at things, but unfortunately I see many people saying that it's bad and if you don't see that you're opinion is bad too. I can't stand that attitude. Some of us don't think it added much, and we have just as much a right to that opinion as the people on the other side of the fence. Again, not talking about you specifically, just some responses I've seen.
Some of us aren't arguing that it will be the end of customization. That is part of what is so frustrating about this debate. Half the time you get the feeling people aren't even reading your specific post. If they are reading your post they manage to say in almost the same sentence: "The game doesn't have to be like D2 since this is D3 so we don't need manual stats, but if they were in the game they would function exactly as in D2 since this is D3 and it will have to be exactly like D2."
But it goes the other way too. People on your side seem to running with the argument that, "They're adding additional customization options, like runes, etc, so why not make those AND manual stats for more customization!"
What is a very possible reason for this is certain aspects of the game would be over/under powered if the stats could be manually controlled under the new system. We're still getting a net gain in customization (hypothetically, I don't know any better what the final game will be), but adding manual stats might imbalance it.
Just for example, with auto stats, they can set up the progression of the game as they see fit. Maybe in that model with manual stats, if characters could overload strength early, they could cruise through the first act on damage alone, then fill in vitality in act two. Once that's discovered, everyone does that, and the manual stats become a way to circumvent the balance of the game.
With auto stats, as a designer, you can say, "here's the base of where they'll be. The most base damage they can have is X, the most base life they can have is Y. If they want to overload something, they're going to need to find the gear, not just press a button, so we make this area work like Z."
Not the most clear example, I know, but I just wanted to give a possible scenario. Until we see how the game works and what not, I still believe we're gaining more customization overall, and the amount of extra customization that manual stats would give is overshadowed by potential balance and exploit issues.
Deckard Cain
27-02-2009, 22:12
Although I'm sure most people for manual stats won't change their minds... i feel like the positives for auto stats out weigh the positives of manual stats. I think one of the main benefits is that Blizzard will have a much better time balancing the game.
And the whole thing about "Blizzard making stats more meaningful" makes a bit of sense. Since players won't be getting stats each level they will have to choose based on gear. In D2 an item with + stats wasn't too great... it was more about the other modifiers like resists + skills, DR etc. I hope they continue to use these modifiers, but now + stats on items can have a greater effect since people won't be able to just pump stats into the desired attribute.
A bit about the potion thing:
For D3, Blizzard wanted to stop the potion spam that was rampant in D2. the only way to really stop it, however, was to insert a cooldown. As everyone said, the cooldown could not stop potion spam, since players would still be using one every chance. Blizzard gave the potions a long cooldown (don't know the exact but I guess 1-2 minutes). It severely nerfed the spam and it seemed to work. However, it also limited healing when the player needed it, and players would wait around after a fight for their potions to recharge. So, Blizzard added the Health Globes. They allowed non-spammable healing in combat, and encouraged players to go to the next fight without having to rely on potions.
In summary, Potion Cooldown = Decrease spam/dependance. Globes = Rapid healing in controlled doses, with potions for emergencies.
that's how I like to see it. Because in every RPG, a big part of the fights is healing yourself while your opponent beats you down. I don't see why you need a steady stream of potions when you can have a steady stream of Globes. Globes that don't take inventory space and become part of the strategy instead of just a habit.
Well combat strategy generally doesnt involve running into the middle of a group of enemies just to heal yourself.. in my opinion it just makes the strategies one dimensional. And how are you supposed to progress past where you are; if your not a high enough level you wont have the life needed to survive until a health globe drops no matter how good you are. Sort of makes it newbified. I can kind of see playing like I did in diablo 2, shooting enemies from afar and running backwards and doing mob control; apparently I wont be able to even do something as simple as that...
Kiroptus
28-02-2009, 02:03
Well combat strategy generally doesnt involve running into the middle of a group of enemies just to heal yourself.. in my opinion it just makes the strategies one dimensional.
Its certainly more than D2's spam potion or use a tp.
And how are you supposed to progress past where you are; if your not a high enough level you wont have the life needed to survive until a health globe drops no matter how good you are.
Well if you are not high enough to progress then you just shouldnt be progressing until you are high level enough right? And the orbs are pretty common from what the people in Blizzcon could tell.
Sort of makes it newbified.
I dont get it, why?
Being limited to how far you can progress based on what the devs think you should, having more stats from gaining levels should make it easier to progress but it shouldnt be manditory to progress. You get what im saying? They may as well make it an mmorpg at that rate.
Bladewind
28-02-2009, 02:55
With auto stats, as a designer, you can say, "here's the base of where they'll be. The most base damage they can have is X, the most base life they can have is Y. If they want to overload something, they're going to need to find the gear, not just press a button, so we make this area work like Z."
They got a term for that in ARPGs and CRPGs.
It is called Hand Holding.
And believe me, excessive hand holding always do more bad than good.
Also I challenge the claim why the game should be made more accessible to casual players with this system ? If a casual player is put off by the learning curve with manual stats then it is their loss or they can, suck it down and continue with the game or try to roll another char and learn from their mistakes.
To get the best gameplay for any sort of RPGs you got to learn the mechanics of the game which is what make playing RPGs enjoyable in the first place.
Personally my first v1.09 D2 LoD Bnet paladin had even 15 points into energy, while a waste it did serve me in my leveling days. I even maxed Concentration ! I had way too much Dex and Str as well but it did not matter. He still finished Hell baal in a solo walk game. With both max concentration and fanaticism. After that I got motivated to fine tune him further, so I read up guides, get other feedback then made a new toon. The new toon was by far miles better but I did not delete the old paladin, it is because of mistakes that I found learning much more enjoyable.
Now with the new auto-stats the ability to make mistakes, optimization or even gimping yourself is almost gone. That is 1 major aspect in most RPGs. The freedom to decide how you want your char to be. Rather than become a similar base carbon copy everyone else have.
Deckard Cain
28-02-2009, 03:05
One of the arguments for manual stats is that most people ended up being carbon copies anyways. Like you have said you read a guide which i'm sure many people did, which in the end leads to carbon copies.
Bladewind
28-02-2009, 03:15
One of the arguments for manual stats is that most people ended up being carbon copies anyways. Like you have said you read a guide which i'm sure many people did, which in the end leads to carbon copies.
But yes I still have the freedom to gimp myself or experiment if I wanted too. And you don't think auto-stats will have even MORE carbon copies ?
One person does X and get Z damage
He post a guide for people.
Then everyone thinks it is l33t and chase for that build.
Since items no longer have strength or dex reqs. This means that you are free to just get the items without care or worry. Everyone will be at the similar base. So everyone just get whatever items he mention into the guide and will end up having similar damage and stats. The items' stats themselves might vary slightly but overall it is pretty much the same.
BAM ! Even more carbon copies than manual stats can ever hope to do.
At least in manual you get people trying titans, full vita, full willpower, full dex or even play Tuner barbs again. Or even balanced with a certain biased to a certain stats due to player taste.
One of the arguments for manual stats is that most people ended up being carbon copies anyways. Like you have said you read a guide which i'm sure many people did, which in the end leads to carbon copies.
Haha, wow, thats not even close to being an argument, let alone a viable one.
Sorry but, non-arguments piss me off big time. If you want to prevent "carbon-copies" then surely you can see how "auto-stats" really isn't the brightest idea imaginable to achieve that.
Deckard Cain
28-02-2009, 03:36
Lol no... the point of that argument is that manual stat users whine about how its all the same when everyone is auto stats. Even though everyone ends up with the same stats in manual stats.
Which is a non-argument. Plus your premise (ie. everyone will end up with the exact same stats when there's a manual stat placement in place) isn't even true either, which makes it also false.
Deckard Cain
28-02-2009, 03:41
if you want it to be one
Nono, it is one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument).
Deckard Cain
28-02-2009, 03:47
so what is the definition of a non-argument (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=non-argument&go=Go)?
But yes I still have the freedom to gimp myself or experiment if I wanted too. And you don't think auto-stats will have even MORE carbon copies ?
One person does X and get Z damage
He post a guide for people.
Then everyone thinks it is l33t and chase for that build.
Since items no longer have strength or dex reqs. This means that you are free to just get the items without care or worry. Everyone will be at the similar base. So everyone just get whatever items he mention into the guide and will end up having similar damage and stats. The items' stats themselves might vary slightly but overall it is pretty much the same.
BAM ! Even more carbon copies than manual stats can ever hope to do.
At least in manual you get people trying titans, full vita, full willpower, full dex or even play Tuner barbs again. Or even balanced with a certain biased to a certain stats due to player taste.
I think you are forgeting the 30+ passives to pick and choose from based on how your gamestyle is.
There isn't one seeing that (my) english sucks, however a "nonargument" is everything an argument is not. Also, noting bad grammar doesn't validate the use of fallacies.
Bladewind
28-02-2009, 03:55
Lol no... the point of that argument is that manual stat users whine about how its all the same when everyone is auto stats. Even though everyone ends up with the same stats in manual stats.
Are you trolling or just thoroughly unaware the number of stat builds done even with stat broken D2 ? For example ES sorcs will add points to energy because it makes their skill useful.
Provide a hard definitive argument that everyone uses the same stats anyway.
In PvP it is a given because everyone wants more vit, but in PvM things are vastly different.
But how can a Storm Ranger have the same stats as a Zealot is beyond me ? Or a melee enchantress and a full vit tal rasha sorc build having the same stats ?
So if you are unhappy, provided a GOOD case by case analysis and break down why manual stats are useless "because everyone is the same lol" argument.
Bladewind
28-02-2009, 03:58
I think you are forgeting the 30+ passives to pick and choose from based on how your gamestyle is.
And then I have still YET to see a single bow related skill in the barbarian tree yet.
Guess Bow barbs are not in then.
Doctor Salvador
28-02-2009, 04:02
All those choices you want to make with manual stats (i.e. gimping your own character, experimenting, etc.) will just have to be made with your gear. Is that the purpose of the gear? Well, it's part of it, just the same way adding resists and life and whatnot is part of the purpose for gear. It's just that now, if you wanna make that glass cannon, you'll have to find as much gear with +dex boosts as possible. Now you have to make a gear decision where you have to drop that boost to vita and resist to get more bow damage.
Now that you've made that decision, and you're late in the game, you've got all your big boosting dex gear, all your resists, vita, life, def is low from lack of gear boosts . . . You've got a glass cannon! Yeah, gear is replacing manual stats, hence you still have that customization. Think auto-stats make it too easy? Well if you wanna customize your stats, you gotta drop other boosts, like I said with the glass cannon. That can be a tough choice, most likely a bigger one then normally made with manual stats.
Plus manual stats, even if put in at this point, will imbalance the passives and the other new customization.
Doctor Salvador
28-02-2009, 04:05
And then I have still YET to see a single bow related skill in the barbarian tree yet.
Guess Bow barbs are not in then.
Put a bow on your barb. That was pretty Devil's Advocate-ish of me, but hey, we're arguing.
Yeah, gear is replacing manual stats, hence you still have that customization..
See but, it isn't. I could customize them independently, now i cant.
Imagine not being able to customize skills independently from your gear, doesn't sound like the best idea does it.
Deckard Cain
28-02-2009, 04:14
i could have sworn i saw an interview where jay wilson said that most players just put enough stats into str to wear gear, dex for max block, and the rest in vit. Sorry if i generalized by saying that it leads to carbon copies. I understand there are a few special cases where stats are different. The point i was trying to make is how many hammerdins have drastically different stats. I'd hate to continue though cause it might lead to a non-argument or some sort of trolling.
Jay Wilson wasn't wrong in saying that, generally that is indeed true in most cases. But between that "observation" of faulty balancing in D2 and concluding "auto-stats" is a huge and dark void of nothingness.
Bladewind
28-02-2009, 04:22
i could have sworn i saw an interview where jay wilson said that most players just put enough stats into str to wear gear, dex for max block, and the rest in vit. Sorry if i generalized by saying that it leads to carbon copies. I understand there are a few special cases where stats are different. The point i was trying to make is how many hammerdins have drastically different stats. I'd hate to continue though cause it might lead to a non-argument or some sort of trolling.
Concession accepted.
But not everyone rolls a Hammerdin, WW barb, Zealot/Zsmiter, vita heavy Sorc etc. There are alternatively less powerful builds that everyone enjoys.
And yes Bow barbs DO exist in D2. Just that I see no provisioning for them in D3 when it is hyped up "to be all you can be" with the 30 odd passives. If you going to make D3 a end all be all in ARPGs that will cater for every possible build that is going to occur, you better make it right.
D2 got it right with items that have Oskills allowing Bow Barbs to exist thanks to widowmakers and turn Singing barbs into real casters with enigma.
And then I have still YET to see a single bow related skill in the barbarian tree yet.
Guess Bow barbs are not in then.
See there are these things called "CLASSES" and each one plays differently. Inside each class there are many ways to play, but each class still has a certain theme/playstyle. Even in D&D where you get to pick from a non class restricted feat list, a Barbarian, Fighter, or Monk isn't going to be using a bow.
Doctor Salvador
28-02-2009, 04:29
See but, it isn't. I could customize them independently, now i cant.
Imagine not being able to customize skills independently from your gear, doesn't sound like the best idea does it.
It would suck to not be able to customize skills independently, but it is just not the same thing, there is no comparison between skills and stats, especially 'cause you can even alter your stats with skills now.
Really I think auto-stats are just gonna make us choose new gear more often than in D2. With your own drops, this shouldn't be a problem.
Bladewind
28-02-2009, 04:34
See there are these things called "CLASSES" and each one plays differently. Inside each class there are many ways to play, but each class still has a certain theme/playstyle. Even in D&D where you get to pick from a non class restricted feat list, a Barbarian, Fighter, or Monk isn't going to be using a bow.
And so ?
If I want to break away from the theme with creative builds, why should I be punished ?
Why should enchantress melee / bow sorc players be forced to play a wizard "like a wizard" ? Why a barb player forced to play the front line battler when he wants to be support and be a Singer barb instead ?
This mentality going to encourage more cookie cutter builds than ever before.
So yes, I am all for free and open character customization from stat points to skills, not because it makes everyone the same, but it makes everyone more different.
That is why I applaud the D2 oSkill items as well. Turning into a wolf barb is fun at times no ? Or a fire arrow explodey enchantress sorc ?
Because Blizzard bothered to make 5 unique classes, and if you want to play a specific archetype you pick that class, not try to turn one into another. A barb is not a mage. This isn't about customization. You just want to exploit the rules and mess with the system.
Because that is the whole point of classes in the first place. There are plently of builds to play a wizard like a wizard so there won't really be cookie cutter stuff. Just looking at the skill trees available it'll be more about how you like to play than what works best (because that is subjective) when building your character. Classes exist for a reason, if you want to play a mage type character like a ranger, then go make your own game. If classes can pretty much do anything, then its not really a class anymore, there has to be limits. Other wise they might as well just let you pick skills from a pot and not have classes. But ofcouse then I'm sure that would be "not Diablo" as well.
Bladewind
28-02-2009, 04:43
But hey you have to admit.
It gave D2 a certain longevity (10 years ) many games cannot claim but yes many of these are gimped builds. It is not so much exploit the rules and mess with the system, it is to make things more interesting at the very least. And this still classify as customization and flexible gameplay. I mean why should we be stop from making a pure healing paladin as well lol. And how is making a class gimped considered an exploit ?
Playing a weaker than average character is now considered an exploit as well ???
Many of this builds do not challenge the REAL classes who specialized in this tree or skill. In terms of power and damage, a storm ranger can never hope to beat a real bower but at least show the gimp fella a little love can they ?
Doctor Salvador
28-02-2009, 04:53
But hey you have to admit.
It gave D2 a certain longevity (10 years ) many games cannot claim but yes many of these are gimped builds. It is not so much exploit the rules and mess with the system, it is to make things more interesting at the very least. And this still classify as customization and flexible gameplay. I mean why should we be stop from making a pure healing paladin as well lol. And how is making a class gimped considered an exploit ?
Playing a weaker than average character is now considered an exploit as well ???
Many of this builds do not challenge the REAL classes who specialized in this tree or skill. In terms of power and damage, a storm ranger can never hope to beat a real bower but at least show the gimp fella a little love can they ?
Making a pure healing pally is one thing, but making an Enigma wearing Barbarian with a combination of the Trang set teleporting around blasting fireballs is another. I do enjoy some of the more off beat builds, but crossing class lines does bother me. The Oskills were neat at times, but they damaged the unique feel of the classes, which IMO is more important than the super off beat builds.
Bladewind
28-02-2009, 04:56
Making a pure healing pally is one thing, but making an Enigma wearing Barbarian with a combination of the Trang set teleporting around blasting fireballs is another. I do enjoy some of the more off beat builds, but crossing class lines does bother me. The Oskills were neat at times, but they damaged the unique feel of the classes, which IMO is more important than the super off beat builds.
Well if the game is in for the long term, variation and interesting game play is the name of the game. :thumbup: But true Oskills did damage some classes unique feel which is why I prefer a few certain skills / passives in the game that help that kind of game play. A barb having a couple of simple arrow skills and a mastery certain won't detract from the Ranger/Hunter class who would easily have 3 or 4 skill trees on that.
Doctor Salvador
28-02-2009, 05:06
Well if the game is in for the long term, variation and interesting game play is the name of the game. :thumbup: But true Oskills did damage some classes unique feel which is why I prefer a few certain skills / passives in the game that help that kind of game play. A barb having a couple of simple arrow skills and a mastery certain won't detract from the Ranger/Hunter class who would easily have 3 or 4 skill trees on that.
Lol, the last thing I need is a Barbarian named Rambo launching exploding arrows from a bow.
Do you think D3 will be the latest Diablo game long enough to make that kinda thing necessary, though? D2 has been our main source of Diablo for quite a while, but with supposed multiple expansions, patches, and maybe a Diablo 4 (Made right the first time around?), perhaps we won't get quite that bored.
There is always the precious minority of players who can't help but explore the unknown, however.
Bladewind
28-02-2009, 05:11
Lol, the last thing I need is a Barbarian named Rambo launching exploding arrows from a bow.
Do you think D3 will be the latest Diablo game long enough to make that kinda thing necessary, though? D2 has been our main source of Diablo for quite a while, but with supposed multiple expansions, patches, and maybe a Diablo 4 (Made right the first time around?), perhaps we won't get quite that bored.
There is always the precious minority of players who can't help but explore the unknown, however.
I would name indeed name him Rambo lol.
Well as for D4 appearing quickly there is another unnamed MMO in the works that will succeed WoW. An MMO being blizz crown jewel and all will have considerable more support than D3 or future Diablo endeavors.
So when I play a diablo or SC game, I expect to be in for a long haul, at least a good 5 or 6 years minimum.
Well Bladewind, who's to say Blizzard isn't going to provide enough customization to put off class twisting for a good long time.
Well if the game is in for the long term, variation and interesting game play is the name of the game. :thumbup: But true Oskills did damage some classes unique feel which is why I prefer a few certain skills / passives in the game that help that kind of game play. A barb having a couple of simple arrow skills and a mastery certain won't detract from the Ranger/Hunter class who would easily have 3 or 4 skill trees on that.
Which would mean a couple less skills for those that want to play a Barb like an actual Barb.
Bladewind
28-02-2009, 07:30
Then skills like Warcry should not exist for your reason alone. Or the new Seismic Slam for that matter. This all serve as potential barb main skills and they are more caster type than the traditional fly into the face of combat archtype barb.
And you won't ever max out all the skills and passive trees. 1 skill pt per level makes for some very tight expenditure considering passives are now very important. Heck Passives have always being important to a barb thanks to masteries.
Kiroptus
28-02-2009, 07:47
D2's longevity has little to do with the oddball builds, infact, most players just go for the cookie-cutters, there is very little variation whithin the classes and you hardly see any non-cookie-cutter build around.
The reason of D2's longevity is because its pretty much the only game in its genre with a supported multiplayer system like bnet. If you like Multiplayer ARPGs you have just one choice: Diablo (never could get into sacred and certainly that didnt manage to be a worthy opponent for Diablo).
Regardless if the odd ball builds are present or not the point is that the priority must be creating skill trees that support the archtype of the character, if there is room to put some oddball skills there that doesnt hurt the game then let it be.
Still I dont get it at all... for example: You could create a melee sorc that used enchant. Fine. It was an oddball build and it worked very badly on its concept. Now the wizard has skills to support a melee wizard and people complain its not fun because its "cookie-cutter" because its viable... Sorry but it makes no sense at all to me.
Bladewind
28-02-2009, 08:30
I was for one who did not complain on that. :thumbsup:
I would love to see more love and potential for odd ball builds as well as manual stats. I have pretty much no issue on the rest of the game aside from respecs, but I am quite sure respecs will be fairly hard to come by so I am not worried on that system.
Then skills like Warcry should not exist for your reason alone. Or the new Seismic Slam for that matter. This all serve as potential barb main skills and they are more caster type than the traditional fly into the face of combat archtype barb.
And you won't ever max out all the skills and passive trees. 1 skill pt per level makes for some very tight expenditure considering passives are now very important. Heck Passives have always being important to a barb thanks to masteries.
Punching the ground hard enough to make a shock wave seems like something a huge strength based character could do. But for someone that normally attacks with melee weapons to pick up a bow and be any good is another. Two totally different ways to fight.
Hmm, now they are saying a barb shouldnt be able to cast spells. Seems like they are saying anything now just to prove blizzard right..
Anyways my favourite build in d2 was a caster werebear. it definately wasnt as strong as a sorc but it sure could survive better.
Who are you refering to? And yeah a Barb should not be able to cast spells. Since you know, a Barb isn't part of the mage clans and has never been taught how.
Bladewind
28-02-2009, 09:51
Punching the ground hard enough to make a shock wave seems like something a huge strength based character could do. But for someone that normally attacks with melee weapons to pick up a bow and be any good is another. Two totally different ways to fight.
Then how about war cries ? What do you scare or kill your opponent with ? It is random foul language or some carefully recited curse or is it bad breathe ? You decide.
And I last checked, war cries are still in D3.
I can only assume a warcry is a shockwave, hammer of the ancients on the other hand is definitely magic. Anyways if an item gives you a spell it can only be assumed its the item that casts it, sort of explains why its always so weak.
Mad Mantis
28-02-2009, 14:28
Just for example, with auto stats, they can set up the progression of the game as they see fit. Maybe in that model with manual stats, if characters could overload strength early, they could cruise through the first act on damage alone, then fill in vitality in act two. Once that's discovered, everyone does that, and the manual stats become a way to circumvent the balance of the game.
With auto stats, as a designer, you can say, "here's the base of where they'll be. The most base damage they can have is X, the most base life they can have is Y. If they want to overload something, they're going to need to find the gear, not just press a button, so we make this area work like Z."
All you have done with this model is move the stats from the players control to the gear. The problem (at least the way some people see it) still remains. You can still break the precious balance model by using gear with a load of +stats in a single attribute. The only added hurdle is that it might take some mindless grinding.
It is even easier when all stats are on gear to have a dedicated set-up for all attributes. People all want more storage and Blizz will give it to them. It probably won't take much play time at all to gather such sets, but this is pure speculation.
And the whole thing about "Blizzard making stats more meaningful" makes a bit of sense. Since players won't be getting stats each level they will have to choose based on gear. In D2 an item with + stats wasn't too great... it was more about the other modifiers like resists + skills, DR etc. I hope they continue to use these modifiers, but now + stats on items can have a greater effect since people won't be able to just pump stats into the desired attribute.
So what you did was kill customization of items or added a totally new balance problem, replacing the previous one that you hoped to fix. Either stats on items are perfectly balanced with all the other attributes or they become useless/overpowered. I don't particularly care for the balance argument, but it does seem odd that people don't see how it could lead to more problems.
Because Blizzard bothered to make 5 unique classes, and if you want to play a specific archetype you pick that class, not try to turn one into another. A barb is not a mage. This isn't about customization. You just want to exploit the rules and mess with the system.
And yet they gave the Barb those warcries, which crafty players used to turn him into a mage. They are still operating within the class boundaries. Carving out a role for they character and playing him. Why the hell would you want a roleplaying game that makes this impossible?
Doctor Salvador
28-02-2009, 21:18
All you have done with this model is move the stats from the players control to the gear. The problem (at least the way some people see it) still remains. You can still break the precious balance model by using gear with a load of +stats in a single attribute. The only added hurdle is that it might take some mindless grinding.
If you use gear with a load of +stats in a single attribute, the rest of your stats will be low, and same probably goes for your resists and all that other fun stuff. It's a lot less control in the players hands, but if you work at it, you can still get the stats you want (Note I said stats, not build, because builds in D3, and D2 90% of the time, were made from the skills).
Having to control your stats with gear just means you will have to make sacrifices and more choices. This, IMO, will make those crazy glass cannon builds all the more unique, 'cause it'll take a little more dedication to get that massive dex/strength boosting gear rather than just clicking on your dex/strength.
Blizzard made auto stats so every player had a decent power base, to be built up from there.
Bladewind
01-03-2009, 03:15
If you use gear with a load of +stats in a single attribute, the rest of your stats will be low, and same probably goes for your resists and all that other fun stuff. It's a lot less control in the players hands, but if you work at it, you can still get the stats you want (Note I said stats, not build, because builds in D3, and D2 90% of the time, were made from the skills).
Having to control your stats with gear just means you will have to make sacrifices and more choices. This, IMO, will make those crazy glass cannon builds all the more unique, 'cause it'll take a little more dedication to get that massive dex/strength boosting gear rather than just clicking on your dex/strength.
No it won't lol.
Simply put in D2, items have strength reqs. Windforce toting Zon will definitely have more strength. Same for a Grand Matron Bow Zon. A Mat bow zon, however will require less strength than the former 2 so all those extra points go into dex.
By removing item reqs you are removing 1 form of stat customization but that is fine really.
The only issue is, people will soon figure out what is the best items for a glass cannon and every build will simply become, equip this, equip that and equip this again. Well you get the drift.
At least for the old 3 endgame bowazon, each of their endgame gear and stats are quite different especially in the skills and items.
Stop crying over the stats.
Deckard Cain
01-03-2009, 06:04
No it won't lol.
Simply put in D2, items have strength reqs. Windforce toting Zon will definitely have more strength. Same for a Grand Matron Bow Zon. A Mat bow zon, however will require less strength than the former 2 so all those extra points go into dex.
By removing item reqs you are removing 1 form of stat customization but that is fine really.
The only issue is, people will soon figure out what is the best items for a glass cannon and every build will simply become, equip this, equip that and equip this again. Well you get the drift.
At least for the old 3 endgame bowazon, each of their endgame gear and stats are quite different especially in the skills and items.
You make a good point that removing stat requirements will most likely make certain gear best for a specific build. But is that really any different from D2 now with stat requirements? Yes you have to make a few choices with gear because some stats will be sacrificed, but there are still best items. It is also impossible to make that assumption since we don't know what gear there will be. It is possible that a glass cannon build will have multiple options to go with.
As far as i'm concerned D2 has an extreme problem with redundancy of gear even with manual stats. I think the problem you fear will happen can easily be solved by blizzard giving the player more options, regardless if the stats are auto or manual.
No it won't lol.
Simply put in D2, items have strength reqs. Windforce toting Zon will definitely have more strength. Same for a Grand Matron Bow Zon. A Mat bow zon, however will require less strength than the former 2 so all those extra points go into dex.
By removing item reqs you are removing 1 form of stat customization but that is fine really.
The only issue is, people will soon figure out what is the best items for a glass cannon and every build will simply become, equip this, equip that and equip this again. Well you get the drift.
At least for the old 3 endgame bowazon, each of their endgame gear and stats are quite different especially in the skills and items.
Exactly, before you could build builds like a glasscannon around different items, now you will more or less be forced to use certain equipment, which opens up much less variation in builds and thus less customization. I hope this will be proved wrongly, but i really don't see how.
Bladewind
01-03-2009, 07:21
Stop crying over the stats.
Stop making nonsensical posts.
Mad Mantis
01-03-2009, 13:38
Having to control your stats with gear just means you will have to make sacrifices and more choices.
No, you won't. If I put a point in Dex then it is fixed. I can't reclaim that point. It can never be a point in Vit or Str. With gear I can equip all +Dex gear to make a glass cannon and get through some easy situations. When I see that my Char starts to struggle I can get back to town and switch to a gear setup that will give me more life.
It is easy to switch stat builds when you have it all on your equipment. It doesn't represent a commitment to a certain path. You make temporary choices that do not really affect your playstyle.
Brother Laz
01-03-2009, 14:16
Jay Wilson wasn't wrong in saying that, generally that is indeed true in most cases. But between that "observation" of faulty balancing in D2 and concluding "auto-stats" is a huge and dark void of nothingness.
Sure, not everyone spends their points the same way, but the point remains: spend them right or get a weaker character. This is not a choice at all. Even if the ideal stat point distribution varies between builds, you still need to spend them right.
......
It is easy to switch stat builds when you have it all on your equipment. It doesn't represent a commitment to a certain path. You make temporary choices that do not really affect your playstyle.
This commitment is even worse than the skill point commitment. With skills, you have to choose a path before you've even seen the skills. With stats, you have to choose a path before you've seen the endgame items and you can't even count on getting those items.
If I put all of my points into energy and then find a +50% mana ring... well, time to reroll, lol. If I'm a sorc but I put a lot of points into strength to tank, and then find Tyrael's Might... reroll again, duh.
Players should never be asked to commit to anything before they know the full implications of doing so. Otherwise, you're forcing them to reroll, which then gives rise to demands to put respec into the game. And the end result is even worse.
So holding their hands through the game is the best choice then? I dunno I see diablo 2 as the last frontier of non-care bear video games. Nowadays you see a game that allows pking calling itself a niche game and touting how different it is.. sort of sad.
Brother Laz
01-03-2009, 14:57
Hardcore games should distinguish themselves by being difficult to beat and requiring a lot of player skill, while imposing harsh penalties for failing. This does apply to D2, provided you define 'skill' as 'knowing where to spend your skill and stat points and what items to get'.
I'd prefer to see skill redefined as actual battle tactics, which were present in D1 but were completely thrown overboard in D2.
Just as the UI limitations in Starcraft meant that a significant part of player skill was about clicking fast instead of playing smart, the unforgiving skill and stat points in D2 mean that most player skill is about how to spend your points properly instead of how to survive and kill enemies. Is this what we want?
Bladewind
01-03-2009, 16:28
Yes but builds are never broken with wrong stat choices. Unless you do something really silly like 200 points to energy. But let's not forget there are no more useless stats in D3, everything you add, even if you slam points into it will be beneficial.
For example insanely high willpower barbs will take a while to kill an enemy on Melee and have less hp but the Orbs they take will always give them the "Full Rejuv" potion effect and spells like Hammer of Ancients and Seismic Slam will be rocking hard. There you go, a caster barb !
Builds only get broken due to wrong skill placement, which is what the respec system is for.
Don't mix up stats and skill points. Stats rarely cause a build to fail but skill points will, hence the respec system.
Sure, not everyone spends their points the same way, but the point remains: spend them right or get a weaker character. This is not a choice at all. Even if the ideal stat point distribution varies between builds, you still need to spend them right.
......
You make it sound like spending points right is a bad thing. Seriously, do you want to reward ignorance in playing the game, or is the thought of actually having to have somewhat knowledge of the game such a horrible premise you rather not have the burden to spend anything, right or wrong.
This commitment is even worse than the skill point commitment. With skills, you have to choose a path before you've even seen the skills. With stats, you have to choose a path before you've seen the endgame items and you can't even count on getting those items.
No it isn't, its part of any roleplaying game or (action) game based on a roleplaying philosophy like hack&slash games. I could list the number of games where not having to commit to anything results in extremely boring gameplay, Oblivion to name one where not any skills or stats matter much, if anything. "I'm a pure elemental wizard now, a few equip swaps and i'm a berserking brute now, a few equip swaps and i'm a ranger now, etc....".
If I put all of my points into energy and then find a +50% mana ring... well, time to reroll, lol. If I'm a sorc but I put a lot of points into strength to tank, and then find Tyrael's Might... reroll again, duh.
You're nothing with a mana ring if you don't value mana, if you don't value mana you shouldn't be putting points into energy, you're argument does not work here. Btw, not one single character should become the most powerful/best build in its class regardless of how you develop that character, because that defeats building a character to begin with.
Players should never be asked to commit to anything before they know the full implications of doing so. Otherwise, you're forcing them to reroll, which then gives rise to demands to put respec into the game. And the end result is even worse.
Carebear anyone? You might as well give noobs a "maximum efficiency" button, and voila, none has to commit to anything. Knowing all implications and consequences IN ADVANCE is a downright horrible idea. Shame on you.
Doctor Salvador
01-03-2009, 22:01
The carebear thing made me LoL (in a good way). The thing is though, I never really thought of Diablo as a 'hardcore game'. Sure, you had the amazing ability to gimp your own char (Which came in handy with the occasional Titan Barb), but the game itself isn't massively difficult. If auto-stats are enabled then everyone will have a relatively similar base stats, which means killing will be a bit more skill involved (God forbid), albeit a bit.
^^That's not a carebear move, that's a move to satisfy the greatest number of players. With auto-stats, you'll satisfy the people who hate the idea of gimping their own characters (I don't really agree with that argument), you'll satisfy the people who want more balance and customization in other areas, and you'll satisfy the baby-bop middle schoolers who can't handle making a choice. There's also a bonus of satisfying people who wanna kill with skill, not correct stat choices (I'm walking a fine line here, since I've argued that skills make the build, not stats, but then again, you guys know that stats are crucial). Maybe blizz looked at the odds, and saw that manual stats would satisfy the minority, i.e. many of the past hardcore Diablo fans. Heck, I'd be very happy with manual stats, I just think that auto-stats are a better decision for Blizzard, who, and you can quote me on this, has a LOT more importance than me.
I've kinda lost track of where I am with this post, so I'll cut it off here, but basically, I'm saying that maybe we should look at the big picture, and not just one side vs. the other.
What i see, autostat's are different approach to get max stat's that were in first Diablo.
Where only warrior could have 250 Strength or mage could 250 in Magic.
But with items you could have more of it.
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