Soda isn't water yet they are both liquids

[Demetrium]

You know what my biggest gripe about Diablo3 is so far? It's potential players who have the most obscure, irrelevant gripes about it and feel the need to post that they're not going to play it unless the game turns into a FMV of Survivorman with a Tetris overlay.

I'm sick to my stomach over the fact every other thread on this goddam forum has some sort of ****ty analogy as to why D3 is going to be bad for a nonsensical reason. The game looks like WoW! The inventory management system is too easy! I don't like the fact the only source of health/mana is potions anymore, I refuse to play the game for this reason alone! Some attributes might automatically be delegated for me; this game is a fascist piece of ****! Why are you even registering and posting if this is seriously the case? Go shine your shoes and then complain to Kiki shoe polish and ***** about how they made it too easy by creating brush with an auto-distributing polish mechanism.

World of Warcraft has a user interface and is a game made by Blizzard. So does every other videogame created dating back to Rock and Roll Racing. Is Rock and Roll Racing any worse of a game because they share this feature? You may or may not like or appreciate WoW for x reason, but the game isn't extremely successful because it was designed by a bunch of beef-witted Klingons. It has some great components, like an auction house system which make it so I don't have to use an EZboard forum like j2dsp and use "forum gold" currency to do trading and ensure I don't get scammed by some fag. If you don't like D3 so far because of the art style, fine, you're entitled to your opinions regardless of how paltry they are. Just don't throw them around and source WoW as your reason. Do us a favor and keep them to yourself.

Look at the reasons you played Diablo2 and I'm sure the majority of them can still be found within Diablo3. Half of you would like to see D2 with an updated graphics engine and then would completely whine about how unoriginal Blizzard is. Stacking items in a grid is not a gameplay mechanic. The game is far less colorful and fruity than Diablo2 was. Diablo2 had automatically allocated stats. Having an auction system is not a bad idea. Posting ****ty reasons why you won't play Diablo3 is a bad idea.

[Zarniwoop]

I have no issues with the interface.

I do have some concern with autostats.

I don't want to end up having to do a bunch of tanking for 50 levels with my wizard so his stats are correctly distrubuted for stamina gear or whatever. But, if the entire game looks as good as the demo did, I'm so there.

They have just nattered on about streamlining and simplifying. That = easier. That = not as much fun for some of us.

I have the right to express that opinion. I'll still play it. Whether I'll still play it in 2012 is up to them.



EDIT: Diablo 2 did NOT have auto-allocated stats.

[MinusDII]

EDIT: Diablo 2 did NOT have auto-allocated stats.

He might mean the life/mana you get per level for different character classes?

I don't like it when they simplify games, in fact I'd like it to be more complex with more opportunities for different whacky builds.

I will of course still play the game and it is about the only game I've ever looked forward to. I have no problem with the graphics or most things I've seen so far, except the auto stats.

[Grug]

Zarniwoop, what do you men, Tanking? Stats aren't distributed based on Gameplay. It doesn't matter how many times you're hit or whatever. Stats are Class based. For instance, a Wizard will get 1 Strength, 2 Dexterity, 2 Vitality, and 3 Energy every level, while a Barbarian will get 2 Strength, 2 Dexterity, 3 Vitality, and 1 Energy. This is regardless of player actions.

[Demetrium]

Zarniwoop, what do you men, Tanking? Stats aren't distributed based on Gameplay. It doesn't matter how many times you're hit or whatever. Stats are Class based. For instance, a Wizard will get 1 Strength, 2 Dexterity, 2 Vitality, and 3 Energy every level, while a Barbarian will get 2 Strength, 2 Dexterity, 3 Vitality, and 1 Energy. This is regardless of player actions.

I was referring to the automatic placement of things like HP/mana per level, native crits, enhanced paladin blocking, etc. There's a bunch of "predetermined" values for the classes in D2. I personally think the system D3 will have would have similar minimal impact and not hurt your class' intended role by giving a barbarian 200 energy for no reason. Blizzard developers are pretty responsible about these things.

[ask_dk]

I hear you Demetrium. I to think that all the people that react the way you explain, should keep away from the game and the forums regarding d3. Its not that people arent allowed to have their own oppinion about the game, but they could atleast keep it in a normal tone and not whining or cursing about it. It wont help anyone, the good thing is that we can totally ignore most of it :nod:
This is the one game i have ever looked so much forward to and im really excited about it, but i do have a little concern about the auto stats aswell, i just hope that blizzard will do a job about it.

[visom]

Demetrium has a point. Some people that complains about D3 going to suck probably has no idea what they're talking about. For example, the auto stats; they said it would make the game too easy but they probably don't know the necessity of auto stats because they probably never played D2 to understand why.

Most of the changes for D3 I approve because it would be so much better if implemented for example:

-auto stats; people argued that it would remove customizations, but what customization? In D2 everyone has a generic build of enough in str, enough in dex, zero in energy and the rest of their points in vitality.
-less darkness; the darkness in D2 is just plain annoying, the lower light radius doesn't add more element of fear it just makes me feel like I'm playing on a 10in monitor, instead of a light radius I'd rather have a fog radius where I can at least see small silhouettes of enemies outside my light radius.
-single slot inventory; I'm neither happy or upset at this change but people complain that they don't get to organize their inventory which I find stupid really. I think I speak for 99% of Diablo players when I say that if my inventory is full, I don't spend 2 minutes reorganizing it, I simply use a TP to NPC all my junk or I throw away the item I don't need to make room, so the tetris system wasn't enthralling to me either.

[NASE]

-auto stats; people argued that it would remove customizations, but what customization? In D2 everyone has a generic build of enough in str, enough in dex, zero in energy and the rest of their points in vitality.

That is not true. There are builds that have very different stat allocation and there are even builds that only work because they utilise a different stat allocation. If you would implement an auto-stats system in diablo II, you would severely damage those builds.

And seen the fact that diablo III still is the sequel to diablo II, there are reason to assume that leaving out manual stats will damage those potential builds.


You are focussing on the things that didn't work in diablo II and then simply leave those out. I - and others with me - look at the things that do work in diablo II and try to implement these systems so that they work for all classes.

[Rashiminos]

That is not true. There are builds that have very different stat allocation and there are even builds that only work because they utilise a different stat allocation. If you would implement an auto-stats system in diablo II, you would severely damage those builds.

And seen the fact that diablo III still is the sequel to diablo II, there are reason to assume that leaving out manual stats will damage those potential builds.


You are focussing on the things that didn't work in diablo II and then simply leave those out. I - and others with me - look at the things that do work in diablo II and try to implement these systems so that they work for all classes.

These builds aren't likely PvP builds. 3 of the 4 stats just don't benefit that much from the extra investment:
Extra strength is useless unless the character melees or throws weapons, and even then once the strength for gear is obtained, further increases in strength cause insignificant damage boosts.
Extra dexterity beyond gear/max block is not too important with AR boosts from skills and equipment. The defense rating boost is also insignificant.
Extra energy increases mana and mana regen, but the same can be accomplished with equipment and pots, so there's not much of point to boosting it.

Beyond the points needed for gear/block, the best attribute to stack points in is vitality, especially since CtA gives everyone BO.

There is also not much point in going lower in str/dex/energy since then you lose access to certain equipment, so builds tend to have common attribute distributions.

Suggestions: Give additional bonuses for strength in excess of requirements/normal (Instead of 1% per point, how about 2-5% for each point over). Same with dexterity and ranged weapons. Give dexterity an enemy block reduction bonus. Energy: end pot spam, magic damage bonus, make a requirement for certain items.

[visom]

That is not true. There are builds that have very different stat allocation and there are even builds that only work because they utilise a different stat allocation.
Please explain to me what these builds are and I'd prefer it to be a serious build that doesn't get abandoned before the character hits level 30 and is widely use for questing or pvp purposes other than made as a 1hour of "screwed up" character fun.

If you would implement an auto-stats system in diablo II, you would severely damage those builds.
Auto stat won't be completely auto. Each level you get 2 (correct me if I'm wrong) free points to allocate it in whatever you need. You can level up to 99(?) in D3, so 99x2 = 198 points, and you can do a lot with 198 points.

And seen the fact that diablo III still is the sequel to diablo II, there are reason to assume that leaving out manual stats will damage those potential builds.
What potential builds? We haven't even the chance to play D3, and those who have played D3 didn't have the time to experiment with builds so how would you know that it could damage these potential builds that no one knows for sure or even heard of? There's many builds with new skills and skill runes, even if manual stats which will (unlikely) reduce these "potential" builds you should know that you can't have everything. I want a barbarian that knows fireball but that just can't happen but I'm fine with that.

You are focussing on the things that didn't work in diablo II and then simply leave those out. I - and others with me - look at the things that do work in diablo II and try to implement these systems so that they work for all classes.
Of course I'm focusing on things that didn't work in D2, why would I need to address the things that work? I didn't leave out the things that didn't work, I was acknowledging how Blizzard will try to fix it. Also, "look at the things that do work in diablo II and try to implement these systems so that they work for all classes", can you put that less bluntly?

[Valkenheim]

Name one blizzard game that sucked, can't? there now stfu and just wait quietly for D3.

And if any of you say Blackthorne, I'll personally kick your *** because that game was badass, I mean c'mon you can hide behind a wall in a 2d side scroller, AWESOME.

[sfs]

Relaxation.

[AxlStrife]

Mostly-auto-stats are perfectly fine by me. I'm a little out-of-the-loop, but with the prospect of respec I don't see a problem at all with the stat system. Reminds me of D&D.

[Tyrone]

I approve of this topic 100% and glad someone said it. Thank you.

[sfs]

Those grouches should outside and get some fresh air. I guarantee that even if D3 turned out like another WoW, they'd still be the first ones to buy it.

[NASE]

These builds aren't likely PvP builds. 3 of the 4 stats just don't benefit that much from the extra investment:
pvp purposes

Diablo isn't a pvp game, atleast not for me.

Please explain to me what these builds are and I'd prefer it to be a serious build that doesn't get abandoned before the character hits level 30 and is widely use for questing or pvp purposes other than made as a 1hour of "screwed up" character fun.

First you have the whole bowazon build and all physical bow users that need high investment in dexterity to hit good damage. So you want a distribution that is quite different from what you mention. if you then look at the pvp section, you'll notice that there isn't a set amount of life that is considered the best. Aiming for 1 - 1.4k life is advised though it's not worth investing to much in vitality if you can't get good charms as it will damage your damage.

Then you have the energy sorcerer. That do need high mana and often archive this (partially) by investing in energy. And as far as I know, there isn't a perfect number of life versus mana. As they both work different. Mana is very usefull versus physical attack yet will be useless with mana burn and elemental attacks not to mention that poison/open wounds is very deadly in pvp for energy sorcerers.

Then you have the debate of 200 fcr fire sorcerer versus 105 fcr. This decision comes with a stats decision as you go for max life or max block with life. Again, if you give them both the same stats distribution, it's ont unlikely that one would be considered much better then the other.
I'm not an expert, yet I believe both builds are used.

And then offcourse we have my own build - lf/fa amazon - that uses elded Whitstan's Guard. Now, I know what you are going to says, you are stupid as this is a crappy shield.
We, perhaps that's true, though lets look at the alternatives. Seen the fact that I'm on non-ladder, spirit is quite expensive and facted jmod is totally out of the question. Not to mention that you can't have max block with them and that I build for max survivability - as I want to hit lvl 93. I could use stormshield though it's heavier and offers less block. It does offer dr so perhaps its better yet I did have a Whitstan's Guard and I didn't have a storm shield so I too Whitstan's Guard.

And then we have some theme build. And perhaps you believe that they aren't important. I believe that for some people this is a very important aspect of the game. And therefore, you can't just ignore them. And it's not because you can't continue playing them after lvl 30, that other people don't.


Auto stat won't be completely auto. Each level you get 2 (correct me if I'm wrong) free points to allocate it in whatever you need. You can level up to 99(?) in D3, so 99x2 = 198 points, and you can do a lot with 198 points.

Then you aren't in a system with pure auto stats. And I agree with you that this is a good compromise. Yet believe this wasn't the subject of our discussion.

What potential builds?

Similar builds that are mentioned for diablo II. I'm thinking of a mele wizard that would probably have quite different stats allocation with manual stats, certainly with str req. on items - I this ain't the case, yet it could be a change in a different game, just pointing out what manual stats could change. - and more use for energy.
Note that I'm talking about potential builds. That potential is important as we don't know them yet, and may never know them if we don't have manual stats.


Of course I'm focusing on things that didn't work in D2, why would I need to address the things that work?

Because some things work for builds and not for other builds. You are looking at the build were it doesn't work, I look at the builds were it does work. It's a different mentality.

[Ouroboros]

To add to NASE's list of stat-dependent builds which were widely played and used extensively in PVP:

1.09 BvB dueler. These builds used high strength to counter other barbs. Very effective vs the 1.09 cookiecutter WW barb.

[Valmy]

I agree with NASE. D2 wasn't a pvp game, and there are a lot of people like me too who were very fun playing non-typical builds. Also, hardcore players (specially caster oriented builds) would get a bit pissed off. And just people who wanted to make a Titan char (like the armageddon-Titan-wolf, without life and all in strength and run a lot) or the hunter druid with all in dexterity, or some bowazones (crystal-cannon ones, high damage, no life). Those are good builds who only noobs (or good players with not enough patience) stopped them at lvl 30, and experimented players go through hell difficulty with them.

I'm not completely against auto-stats because we still don't know Diablo3 and can only speculate. But I think in 2009 (or 2010, or 2011) a third part of a game like this... it must be with the higher possible customization. Autostats system hurts a lot this customization in the long term. Absolutely.

This game will be fun, sure, and we all will play it with fun. Granted. But we all prefer customization. Autostats is a clear backward step.

Ofc I will play it and stay fun anywhere, because this is D3. But I don't like the autostat system and the only 4 keys- interface. Looks like the game will be build for children this time.

[teh_Thrasher]

i liked how NASE said d2 wasnt a pvp game and then used it as a pvp example 2 lines later

so by the looks of it. there were 2 builds that benefited from going outside the norm? "WOW lets change the WHOLE game just to help those 2 builds!"

seriously... the auto stats are different for each character... im sure blizzard will take into account the different builds each class will be able to do thus making the stats more balanced for each build... for example, we can all say that the barbarian will be a melee character with high strength and high life no matter what crazy skill allocation u have in mind BECAUSE he is a melee fighter and melee attacks will have a bonus from strength... and the wizard will have high energy to increase his spell dmg BECAUSE he is a mage class not a warrior class.

[NASE]

Yet if I want to build a barbarian without block - assuming that it will need dex - I'm stuck with the same investment as a barbarian that wants max block. And at the same time, I have quite useless dexterity.


P.S. 1) you need to take a course in calculus as we have already given you 5 different builds.
2) What I don't get is why you don't want a game that has a similar as the stats system for those few builds. That you believe they can't combine it with some other system, I can understand. what I can't understand is that you can't see that this system has it's advantages.

[visom]

Ok NASE "d2 isnt about pvp", I respect your opinion but pvp is obviously an important aspect of D2. PvP is one of those things you can do to keep the fun in D2 if you've already hit godly status with items and have done all the quest.

First you have the whole bowazon build and all physical bow users that need high investment in dexterity to hit good damage. So you want a distribution that is quite different from what you mention. if you then look at the pvp section, you'll notice that there isn't a set amount of life that is considered the best. Aiming for 1 - 1.4k life is advised though it's not worth investing to much in vitality if you can't get good charms as it will damage your damage.
Isn't that one of those generic build then? Enough in strength to use the armors/wep you need, and enough in dex to use the bow you need? Also this build requires a large amount of points in vitality, which is what I mean by "rest in vitality" but of course theres always room for a few except but thats the idea of it.

Then you have the energy sorcerer. That do need high mana and often archive this (partially) by investing in energy. And as far as I know, there isn't a perfect number of life versus mana. As they both work different. Mana is very usefull versus physical attack yet will be useless with mana burn and elemental attacks not to mention that poison/open wounds is very deadly in pvp for energy sorcerers.
This is one of the few exceptions for the builds that do require energy that I carelessly forgot so I'm wrong on the part of the sorceress since to the sorc energy IS vitality.

And then offcourse we have my own build - lf/fa amazon - that uses elded Whitstan's Guard. Now, I know what you are going to says, you are stupid as this is a crappy shield.
We, perhaps that's true, though lets look at the alternatives. Seen the fact that I'm on non-ladder, spirit is quite expensive and facted jmod is totally out of the question. Not to mention that you can't have max block with them and that I build for max survivability - as I want to hit lvl 93. I could use stormshield though it's heavier and offers less block. It does offer dr so perhaps its better yet I did have a Whitstan's Guard and I didn't have a storm shield so I too Whitstan's Guard.
Spirit isn't that hard to get, well in my case I just find a blank monarch shield and have larzuk put sockets in it.
But this proves my point as well, this again is another one of those generic builds where you need only strength/dex to use the items you want and I assume that you put most of yours points into vitality to achieve your zon's max survivability rate.

And then we have some theme build. And perhaps you believe that they aren't important. I believe that for some people this is a very important aspect of the game. And therefore, you can't just ignore them. And it's not because you can't continue playing them after lvl 30, that other people don't.
Gameplay wise they aren't. Most players won't really consider making one, especially one thats decently strong until after they themselves are rich. Theme builds are something you do for fun when you're godly, my friends that all made them builds eventually deleted or turned their character into a mule after a few days. Did they get some fun out of it? you bet, did they admit they wasted time on it and will not make another one? definetly

Similar builds that are mentioned for diablo II. I'm thinking of a mele wizard that would probably have quite different stats allocation with manual stats, certainly with str req. on items - I this ain't the case, yet it could be a change in a different game, just pointing out what manual stats could change. - and more use for energy.
Note that I'm talking about potential builds. That potential is important as we don't know them yet, and may never know them if we don't have manual stats.
You're right, we may never know but then again, Blizzard has changed much of the combat function of D3. They rework the potion system to limit your supply of aid so you can expect the wizard's skill to be powerful range spells to reduce her chances of getting hit, now if you try to make her a melee out of this system it is unlikely that she will have any close ranged defense other than a few of her minor defensive spells that won't be effective in heavy situations. Of course you can always go against the system just for the challenge and annoying your teammates. However I doubt you'll want to make a melee wizard if all she can do is normal attack and teleport. Also have you noticed in the D2 cover, a necromancer can be melee with a dagger and a sorceress can be good with most melee weapons because of her enchant? Well blizzard made the characters more reliant towards their "base" weapons (ex staff for witchdoctor) so its unlikely that there will be any other skills to bolster their melee abilities.

Because some things work for builds and not for other builds. You are looking at the build were it doesn't work, I look at the builds were it does work. It's a different mentality.
I'm not just talking about builds, I'm talking about "things" in general.
No it looks the same to me, things that don't work don't go in D3 (or can't go into D3 without significant consideration or changes), and things that do work will go in, but not before making minor adjustments to test if it will actually work in D3 as well.
Of course I'd rather pay attention to the larger issue first than starting with the many minor ones. Isometric view is great in D1/D2 so I don't think it's that important to look at it being added to D3 while the limitless supply of potions is a big issue that requires large amounts of consideration.

[teh_Thrasher]

lol i need to take calculus to add? damn that is quite the extreme... i ignored the ones that sucked. the bowzon and the BvB were the only ones that actually made sense...

AND max block wont help u too much in d3 cause it doesnt negate all the dmg. u will need the SKILL shield specialization the barbarian has to reduce dmg and block more so HA!

and if u come back with some crap about the other classes blocking im going to say they shouldnt be in the front lines of battle BECAUSE they are weaker caster classes. WHICH shouldnt even be lifting those huge heavy shields... the ones the spartans or roman phalanx use are 40 pounds alone. a lil wizard or tree jumper def doesnt fit the frontline max block shield user stereotype.

and if u come back with some crap about pvp. im going to say what everyone else is crying about "diablo isnt a pvp game" (i actually want pvp but i will use these heinous arguments against you) MEANING that the casters wont need max block because there wont be some melee class mashing their face and if they are doing pve they should have a friend playing a meatshield class to tank for them. the end

[NASE]

You are trying to contain classes in a packages. And believe it or not, it's exactly the fact that you can't do this for diablo II that makes the game fun for me.

And what's wrong with energy shield sorcerers and fire sorcerers?

[teh_Thrasher]

if u dont want packaged classes play oblivion or fallout

nothing wrong with those classes BECAUSE they are still mage classes using spells. even more so with the ES sorc with massive energy. if only it upped dmg like it will in d3.

[visom]

There is nothing wrong to play the class according to it's main role but that isn't an issue to argue over about.

If you can have a melee wizard, then cool good for you. If you can't, well that's not something to cry over about because I respect role boundaries otherwise it will be no fun if I have a wizard that can cast powerful spells, be good at tanking, powerful melee attack without use of mana AND be a good farmer.

Wouldn't you find it ridiculous if you got a barbarian with high HP and high MP that can cast blizzard and when monsters get up close he can smash the ground to knock them all away?

[NASE]

If you look at the skills of the wizard, you will see some weapon skills - magic weapon, spectral blade and advanced spectral blades - and quite a few armour skills. This means that the skills of a mele wizard are present.

Now, a mele wizards needs as much life as possible as they are low lifed in nature. So every points that can be spared, should go into vitality.
With autostats, you can't do this. And this is a problem as a mele wizard with manual stats could have much more life.



@ teh_Thrasher: then why do you refuse to count them in with the examples of 'stat' builds.

[AxlStrife]

If you look at the skills of the wizard, you will see some weapon skills - magic weapon, spectral blade and advanced spectral blades - and quite a few armour skills. This means that the skills of a mele wizard are present.

Now, a mele wizards needs as much life as possible as they are low lifed in nature. So every points that can be spared, should go into vitality.
With autostats, you can't do this. And this is a problem as a mele wizard with manual stats could have much more life.

What point are you trying to explain with this post?

If we had the theoretical "wizard that can cast powerful spells, be good at tanking, powerful melee attack without use of mana AND be a good farmer" character, this would HEAVILY undermine Blizzard's main goal with Diablo III: a focus on multiplayer. The class "restrictions", auto-stats, and low amount of role-crossing skills are there not to stifle creativity but to encourage the multiplayer party to fill in those gaps, much like Dungeons and Dragons.

Another main goal that would be undermined by such a character would be getting away from the "cookie-cutter stat placement", which in a strange turn of events you have advocated right after attempting to prove it superfluous.

EDIT: YET ANOTHER main goal that would be undermined by such a character would be the "strategy and skill over potion-chugging." The low amount of life makes you play more strategically instead of the simple "left-click melee ad nauseum up-close and right-click ranged spell from afar".

[Rashiminos]

Diablo isn't a pvp game, atleast not for me.
Okay... Most PvP builds are also well-suited for PvM, while the reverse is not nearly as true. Plus, you never know when you might want to pk someone.

First you have the whole bowazon build and all physical bow users that need high investment in dexterity to hit good damage. So you want a distribution that is quite different from what you mention. if you then look at the pvp section, you'll notice that there isn't a set amount of life that is considered the best. Aiming for 1 - 1.4k life is advised though it's not worth investing to much in vitality if you can't get good charms as it will damage your damage. The amount of bonus damage and AR from the bow itself and skills is quite enough with the minimum dexterity needed to use the bow. The damage is really good already. May not be a cannon, but at least it's not made out of glass.

Then you have the energy sorcerer. That do need high mana and often archive this (partially) by investing in energy. And as far as I know, there isn't a perfect number of life versus mana. As they both work different. Mana is very usefull versus physical attack yet will be useless with mana burn and elemental attacks not to mention that poison/open wounds is very deadly in pvp for energy sorcerers. This is a poor example due to what the energy (and therefore mana) is being used for. While using ES, increased mana is just about equivalent to increased hp in terms of taking damage. Since synergies make a point of energy more efficient then a point of vitality for most types of damage, Energy gets pumped, yet it's for the same reason other builds pump vitality.

Then you have the debate of 200 fcr fire sorcerer versus 105 fcr. This decision comes with a stats decision as you go for max life or max block with life. Again, if you give them both the same stats distribution, it's ont unlikely that one would be considered much better then the other. I'm not an expert, yet I believe both builds are used. Yet there's no reason to pump more dex over top of it, right? Max block fits in with the "enough for gear" criteria. If max block is not an issue, then the "enough for gear" criterion changes. The issue here is blocking, not general stat bonuses.

And then offcourse we have my own build - lf/fa amazon - that uses elded Whitstan's Guard. Now, I know what you are going to says, you are stupid as this is a crappy shield.
We, perhaps that's true, though lets look at the alternatives. Seen the fact that I'm on non-ladder, spirit is quite expensive and facted jmod is totally out of the question. Not to mention that you can't have max block with them and that I build for max survivability - as I want to hit lvl 93. I could use stormshield though it's heavier and offers less block. It does offer dr so perhaps its better yet I did have a Whitstan's Guard and I didn't have a storm shield so I too Whitstan's Guard. Do you pump more strength than required for your gear including whistan's guard? If not, then it's "enough for gear" all over again.

And then we have some theme build. And perhaps you believe that they aren't important. I believe that for some people this is a very important aspect of the game. And therefore, you can't just ignore them. And it's not because you can't continue playing them after lvl 30, that other people don't. This sort of theme building is not as well represented in the playerbase, so it's probably not a big concern of the devs.

Yet if I want to build a barbarian without block - assuming that it will need dex - I'm stuck with the same investment as a barbarian that wants max block. And at the same time, I have quite useless dexterity. You'd probably need the dex for other reasons.


P.S. 1) you need to take a course in calculus as we have already given you 5 different builds.

I take it you're not a math major. Try arithmetic and algebra. There is not much of a need to discuss continuous variables here.

@AxlStrife

Some of us left-clicked a spell from afar. :)

[visom]

"If you look at the skills of the wizard, you will see some weapon skills - magic weapon, spectral blade and advanced spectral blades - and quite a few armour skills. This means that the skills of a mele wizard are present."

Blizzard has already made a spellcaster more "melee" than she should be with spectral blade (which is one of the very few spells aside from inferno that is cast as close range) and few defensive skills as well, and you don't think this is enough melee?

Blizzard's main goal isn't making a character as flexible as a piece of clay that you can mold into anything.

@Nase
"P.S. 1) you need to take a course in calculus as we have already given you 5 different builds."

Is this because I told you I'm in calculus/physics in the prior argument thread? This is a place for discussions/debates, not insults.

[Telzen]

Now, a mele wizards needs as much life as possible as they are low lifed in nature. So every points that can be spared, should go into vitality.
With autostats, you can't do this. And this is a problem as a mele wizard with manual stats could have much more life.

Wizard passive skill:

Conjured Health
Passive Skill
Description: Increases total health by 8% and the health of your conjured images by 12%.
Rank: 0/15

Then you could stack items with vitality bonuses and take advantage of this too:

Conjured Power
Passive Skill
Description: Increases damage done by spells by 1% for every 10 points of vitality.
Rank: 0/15

Need more mana? Doesn't matter if you can put points into willpower or not, use this:

Greater Mana
Passive Skill
Description: Increases maximum mana by 12%.
Rank: 0/15

Anyway how many times must I make this point until it sinks in. Instead of putting points into the stat like in D2 you put points into a skill that increases the effectiveness of the stat in D3.

Can't put points into willpower, then use this:

Empowered Magic
Passive Skill
Description: Increases the effect of willpower on your spell damage by X%.
Max Rank: 15
Rank 1: Increases the effect of willpower on your spell damage by 10%.
Rank 2: Increases the effect of willpower on your spell damage by 20%.
Rank 3: Increases the effect of willpower on your spell damage by 30%.

And as a Barb, instead of putting points into strength use this:

Focused Strength
Passive Skill
Max Rank: 15
Description: Increases the effect of strength on your physical damage.
Rank 1: +10% to the effect of strength on damage.

And Dexterity adds Dodge and Critical Strike chance, which there are passives for those as well.

Passive skills allow you to do everything stats did, so why do some still hate it?

[Mad Mantis]

Passive skills allow you to do everything stats did, so why do some still hate it?

Because they just removed an option instead of fixing it. Instead of Stats + Skills + Items we now have Skills + items. But we really don't since we need those two to make up for the stat distribution if we veer slightly of the course set by the Blizz employees.

Between certain Necro builds there is still discussion over Max Block or all Vit with both sides having an even split. In the ideal case Blizz fixed the stats instead of just cutting them out and made this situation count for more builds and for more stats than just Dex and Vit.

There is still plenty of room for customization, but I would have preferred it they left the option in instead of cutting it out. A lot of you seem to think that there could have been no option to fix the mistakes of DII. That if they were to have the manual stat distribution that the same problem would arise. it doesn't have to be. There will probably always be a "best" solution no matter what the system is you employ, but I don't like the idea of just cutting out a customization option for no apparent reason other than that it is more easy to do so.

[Mizantrop]

Because they just removed an option instead of fixing it. Instead of Stats + Skills + Items we now have Skills + items. But we really don't since we need those two to make up for the stat distribution if we veer slightly of the course set by the Blizz employees.

Between certain Necro builds there is still discussion over Max Block or all Vit with both sides having an even split. In the ideal case Blizz fixed the stats instead of just cutting them out and made this situation count for more builds and for more stats than just Dex and Vit.

There is still plenty of room for customization, but I would have preferred it they left the option in instead of cutting it out. A lot of you seem to think that there could have been no option to fix the mistakes of DII. That if they were to have the manual stat distribution that the same problem would arise. it doesn't have to be. There will probably always be a "best" solution no matter what the system is you employ, but I don't like the idea of just cutting out a customization option for no apparent reason other than that it is more easy to do so.

I disagree it's still 3-fold customization: Skills+items+runes. Only this time it's more open to change (we'll see about respec) if you want something different.

To add something to what Telzen said, we also have active skills for a melee wizard and who's to know what different runes will do to them?

Magic Weapon
Active Skill
Description: Imbue your weapon with magical energy granting it increased damage.
Rank: 0/1
Mana cost: 10

Since there are no more stat restrictions on weapons, only level, a wizard can just pick-up a vicious 2H-axe, cast this spell with say Power Rune and deal out gazillions points of damage for all we know.

[visom]

Many people just don't like change Telzen.

[AxlStrife]

@AxlStrife

Some of us left-clicked a spell from afar. :)

LOL

@MadMantis: I'll quote myself for part of what I believe is the answer to "why take out manual stat placement"

"The class "restrictions", auto-stats, and low amount of role-crossing skills are there not to stifle creativity but to encourage the multiplayer party to fill in those gaps, much like Dungeons and Dragons."

[Knight_Wolf]

Because they just removed an option instead of fixing it. Instead of Stats + Skills + Items we now have Skills + items. But we really don't since we need those two to make up for the stat distribution if we veer slightly of the course set by the Blizz employees.

but I don't like the idea of just cutting out a customization option for no apparent reason other than that it is more easy to do so.

We can't say that it was (Stats + Skills + Items) in D2 and it became (Skills + items) in D3 ... that's unfair in many ways.



First .. we don't know if there will be more customization options or not .. so it could be (Skills + items+X), and "X" is the systems we don't know about yet.

Second ... stats wasn't as important to customization as were the items or skills ... proof .. imagine if they announced instead that D3 will have no item customization or skills .. Blizz HQ would have been attacked by angry mobs of blizzard fans .. but since everyone knew that stats always presented the (only one best solution) very blatantly and that builds were focused and NAMED after items and skills (not stats) nobody feels that sad they are gone, most those who want stats to stay want it cause it "was in D2" .. but fact is that its problems were more than its benefits so it would be like that ^_^

Putting Stats with a negative sign (-) is closer to how it was in D2 (Items-Stats+Skills) and D3 (Items+Skills).


Third .. Items and Skills in D3 will be much much better and more balanced (hopefully) than they ever were in D2 ... so even if we only have items and skills they are way better than they were before in D2.

So the final equation should be IMO ---> D2->(Items+Skills-Stats) and D3->([2x]Items+[2x]Skills+X) ... i think it is quite evident who is better :scratchchin:


I say we have to wait an see what will the other unannounced systems they keep talking about are .. maybe they will be X10 times better than stats were.

[Grug]

I"m sure blizz is also working to make each stat more useful, so stockpiling one while neglecting another won't be as effective as in D2.

[teh_Thrasher]

no need to really reply everything has been said. bout the skills that geet boosts from stats etc.

but the auto allocation isnt just to make it easier/quicker for the player but also for the developers to properly balance the game. which IMO is a huge issue. as was stated before i dont want some class that can do everything...wheres the challenge in that?

[NASE]

The point isn't that customibility in diablo III would be less then in diablo II. The point is that it could be larger.

(A*skills + B*items + C*X + D*Y)<(A*skills + B*items + C*X + D*Y + E*stats)

assuming that E and stats are positive. And I hope that you all see that some builds prove that they both are positive.

[visom]

The point isn't that customization in diablo III would be less than in diablo II, but that it could be larger.

Another important aspect would be "how much larger do you want it to be?". Depending on your answer, it can greatly impact D3 by which I mean each class having a specific role ranging to all classes having similar abilities with similar roles.

I guarantee that there will be much more customization in D3. You could always multiply the number of skills total in the game and the number of skill runes and you'll have the total number of different skill combination you could do. Also even if you don't get "free" stat points to spend on your attributes, eventually even a spellcaster will level to a high enough level to have enough points in str or dex to use a sword/bow/axe.

[Telzen]

That's not even an issue. Items don't have stat requirements in D3 anyway.

[NASE]

Another important aspect would be "how much larger do you want it to be?". Depending on your answer, it can greatly impact D3 by which I mean each class having a specific role ranging to all classes having similar abilities with similar roles.

True, though stats don't make roles fade. A wizard without the correct skills can't survive. Not even if he spends a lot of points in str and dex - which may even be counter productive as this means less life.

Stats simply allow you to use your skills to the fullest. Forinstance, the mele skills of the wizard require life. If blizzard doesn't want a mele wizard, they should have token out the mele skills. No take out the possibility to have enough life - and freedom of items.
Or take the amazon as an example from diablo II. Huge dex it the main reason why we see bowazon. I tried it with equal life/dex and harmony and it really lack damage.
Or take the paladin. Due to the high block - so low dex - and good shield, he can be as defensive as the barbarian eventhough his life per vitality is lower. Force him to take excessive dex and you are weakening him in his role as front fighter. Or take out the possibility to have max block with spirit. And hammerdins will be weaker - may not be a bad thing though. Yet you hurt him in his roles as shield based front fighter.


P.S. There will probably be things - like that talisman thing - to counter this. Yet why do complicated when stats are damn easy.

[Knight_Wolf]

The point isn't that customibility in diablo III would be less then in diablo II. The point is that it could be larger.

(A*skills + B*items + C*X + D*Y)<(A*skills + B*items + C*X + D*Y + E*stats)

assuming that E and stats are positive. And I hope that you all see that some builds prove that they both are positive.

Like teh_Thrasher said, manual stats made the game much harder for the devs to properly balance and the offered very little customization options compared to items and skills (there is no comparison whatsoever), so removing it actually adds to the quality of the game not the other way around.

So saying that there could be more customization in D3 with stats isn't really a positive thing, specially if we know very well that there will be other new systems that will provide more customization (not to mention how items and skills in D3 are already way better than in D2).

[Mizantrop]

P.S. There will probably be things - like that talisman thing - to counter this. Yet why do complicated when stats are damn easy.

The math stats require sometimes is far from easy. Some people just want to play the game without breaking thier characters and without checking guides and calculators online. Respecs is a hugh step towards that. I wouldn't mind stats choices coming back if there would be a way to change them if you realized you made a mistake. The way it stands right now between D2 and D3 I like D3 way better.

[NASE]

Like teh_Thrasher said, manual stats made the game much harder for the devs to properly balance and the offered very little customization options compared to items and skills (there is no comparison whatsoever)

Harder isn't impossible - yet some people fail to see that there is a possibility to create a balanced game with manual stats.
And I dare questioning the little impact you claim stats to have - diablo II may have screwed things up, yet there are still example of where it does work and where it is important. I would prefer to see a well balanced game where close to all builds have similar stats questions to answer. And if they succeed, it will add quality to the game.

Some people don't even want them to try.


@ Mizantrop: then all they have to do is add points as they see fit when they find an items they want to use. There are very few builds - in diablo II - that require a perfect stat allocation to be effective. If you want to do math, it's your choice. The game doesn't require it.
At least not for general pvm, and certainly not when it comes down to stat calculations.

[Knight_Wolf]

Harder isn't impossible - yet some people fail to see that there is a possibility to create a balanced game with manual stats

Ever wondered how hard it is, ever wondered how much time something like that will take and how much it could delay the game, no ... they apparently weighted their choices and found out that working on this choice (balanced manual stats) is a waste of time ... cause like i said stats really didn't make a big impact on customization, they only made the game harder to balance.


And I dare questioning the little impact you claim stats to have - diablo II may have screwed things up, yet there are still example of where it does work and where it is important. I would prefer to see a well balanced game where close to all builds have similar stats questions to answer. And if they succeed, it will add quality to the game.

With items playing a larger role in D3 no two characters in the same class will have the same stats unless they wear the exact same gear/items.

And even then .. with stat-affecting-skills defense, attack rating and attack damage values for two characters with the same stats won't be the same at all (like the barbarian skill that increase the effect of STR points on the damage output ... using that skill => [1]STR=[4]DMG becomes [1]STR=[6]DMG)



Some people don't even want them to try.

Like i said, who told you they didn't experiment and found it to be a very big waste of time that adds nothing to the game.

[stillman]

Unlike NASE and Mantis, I actually really like Blizzard's chopping block approach. Mass potion spamming was an issue--they (Blizzard) chopped the nuts off it. Tping to town all the time also made the game less challenging--so they chopped that out too. Learning about this made me feel good. They chopped out griefing (hostile mode)...only a few would argue they should have 'worked to fix griefing to keep griefing in rather than being lazy and taking griefing out completely' Yeah, I'm comparing those two: griefing (hostile button) and d2 stat system. They both are relatable because they both made the game suck for many of us.

See, I wan't revenge...revenge on d2 and all its broken parts. I want things cleansed. When someone's got a tumor, you got to carve out the whole ugly thing.

Now, you could, I suppose, argue that there will still be potions, so really they 'worked with the problem' instead of chopping it completely off like with stats. But let's face it, potion spamming is pretty much all the way gone now with the new globe system taking over. Tping to town constatntly is 'practically' over with the new WP/checkpoint system or w/e.

So I'm equally pleased to hear Blizzard chopped off the d2 stat system and replaced it with auto stats. For me, it's just the simple principle: Blizzard seems to have had enough of the problems with stats. I've had enough too. For all these years I've been playing with a broken d2 stat system, and I'd rather see it terminated 100% than have it back in my face reminding me of the older problems.

They didn't chop off teleport, though. I wish they did, but I'm happy that at least the d2 stat system is gone.

I don't just want drastic changes from d2...I demand drastic changes. I'd be happy if the whole game took place in outer space, or under water. D2 is such a mess that I want the greatest possible changes such as removing MANY d2 systems completely.

This part is just a guess, but if Blizzard has any common sense at all, they will want to 'outdo' or at least match what we were able to make with the Horadric cube. I suspect we will have quest rewards or 'recipies' of some sort where you can add loads of w/e stat you want. So normal/nm/hell act 2 quest may all go into str to give you the str you want so bad. Or, instead of random crap mods you get in d2 crafting/rerolling, d3 crafting might allow strength/dex/etc to get added to any item in the game. Add str to every item you wear and you got the titan wizard you want so bad. We don't know how it will work, but JW said you can "customize your characters to the hilt."

Not only that, there will be a "near endless stream of items". They even asked us to come up with affixes for them. When you combine these possibilites with the sheer number of skills per character tree, d3 is clearly going to beat d2 in the customization department.

[NASE]

Ever wondered how hard it is, ever wondered how much time something like that will take and how much it could delay the game, no ... they apparently weighted their choices and found out that working on this choice (balanced manual stats) is a waste of time ... cause like i said stats really didn't make a big impact on customization, they only made the game harder to balance.

We are assuming they weaghted their choices, yet they never said anything about it. it seems like they took the easy way out without even considering the options.
I'd be happy if you all atleast realise the it *could* be a bad thing. Some people tend to only see one side.

Like i said, who told you they didn't experiment and found it to be a very big waste of time that adds nothing to the game.

If they really experimented, then they would have had a playable version with stats and they would have found it to be inefficient - something they can only say when the game is nearly finished. Why didn't they give it at the convention and see what the public says about it?
Probably because they made the decision without any testing. It was probably just a rational decision and not an empirical - again an indication that they didn't even try to fix the broken system.

I don't just want drastic changes from d2...I demand drastic changes. I'd be happy if the whole game took place in outer space, or under water. D2 is such a mess that I want the greatest possible changes such as removing MANY d2 systems completely.

If you make to drastic change, it's not diablo III. It may still be a great game, though it won't be a sequel. If they make diablo III, we want to see things from diablo II return.

d3 crafting might allow strength/dex/etc to get added to any item in the game. Add str to every item you wear and you got the titan wizard you want so bad. We don't know how it will work, but JW said you can "customize your characters to the hilt."

To me, that seems like a system with the same functionality as stast, though with calling it stats.

Why?

If you want such as system, then put in stats. Or stay away form such as system and make a game without stats - or stat-like functionality.

When someone's got a tumor, you got to carve out the whole ugly thing.

who says we weren't someday a tumor in the world? Or that our fingers were tumors? What if God just cut those out instead of trying to making something useful with it?


[edit]
Seen the fact that you all hate manual stats. How do you all stand to partial manual/parital auto system? They could create several auto paths and you can chose such a path at for instance lvls 10-40-70.
Or they could use a large base load of stats - the auto part - and combine this with a small number of manual distributable stats.
That way, you can control balance much more then with full manual stats while still giving the players some control so they can make their character focused on what they want.

[Mad Mantis]

Since there are no more stat restrictions on weapons, only level, a wizard can just pick-up a vicious 2H-axe, cast this spell with say Power Rune and deal out gazillions points of damage for all we know.

That still won't give you the hit points you want. I'm not saying that it won't be possible to play non-archetypical builds, I just think that a different distribution of stat points with these builds would go a long way.

Also a melee wizard is within what the Blizz developers thought out for the class.


Many people just don't like change Telzen.

Change for the sake of change isn't any better than no change at all.


"The class "restrictions", auto-stats, and low amount of role-crossing skills are there not to stifle creativity but to encourage the multiplayer party to fill in those gaps, much like Dungeons and Dragons."

Now I'm going to answer very selfishly, I don't care about multiplayer. I like single player. most of my objections to changes in DIII come from this view point. As long as they market it as a single player game they need to keep in mind the single players.


nobody feels that sad they are gone, most those who want stats to stay want it cause it "was in D2"

That is wrong on so many levels that I have to wonder if you even read all the arguments made by people who like assigning stats.


Third .. Items and Skills in D3 will be much much better and more balanced (hopefully) than they ever were in D2

Until the demo or the game is released you have no idea whether this view is valid or not. Saying that the imbalance in everything will be even greater in D3 is just as valid at this point in time.


but the auto allocation isnt just to make it easier/quicker for the player but also for the developers to properly balance the game.

Only until people figure out which stat to choose on all pieces of their equipment in order to make the fine balance you are all hoping for completely disappear. Saying auto stats would make for easier balancing is only really true if there was no way to change the stats that we have. There is a way, but I don't like it at this time.


Some people just want to play the game without breaking thier characters and without checking guides and calculators online.

What, they should just be given a winning build on a silver platter? Where is the challenge in that? The fun in a game is overcoming an obstacle.

It is not like a casual will be screwed if he doesn't spend six months researching his build. In D2 you could have a functional build without knowing where to put your stats.

[AxlStrife]

Now I'm going to answer very selfishly, I don't care about multiplayer. I like single player. most of my objections to changes in DIII come from this view point. As long as they market it as a single player game they need to keep in mind the single players.

Ok, then let's look at its effect on SP for the sake of argument. This simply means that you need to play the game with more of a strategic mindset. The player's ability to move around and attack at different angles, not how well they can tank (less so if you're a Barbarian since that is how they are designed), will greatly impact that player's survival. Considering this is another main goal of the developers of the game, it makes sense that they would cut out (partially, if not totally)self-applied stats at each level.

Let's not forget about Elixers, if indeed they will still be in the game.

[Knight_Wolf]

We are assuming they weaghted their choices, yet they never said anything about it. it seems like they took the easy way out without even considering the options.
I'd be happy if you all atleast realise the it *could* be a bad thing. Some people tend to only see one side.

Sorry but those are just baseless assumptions, just because they didn't give us a minute by minute report on how the tested stats or judged its uselessness doesn't mean they didn't actually test it out one way or the other.


If they really experimented, then they would have had a playable version with stats and they would have found it to be inefficient - something they can only say when the game is nearly finished. Why didn't they give it at the convention and see what the public says about it?


We don't live with them in the Blizz HQ, they could have that version and no one outside knows a word about it, there is no way to ever know (there are many caricatures about how Blizz has tight lipped security regarding info they don't want to release).

Besides, like i said, they are not obliged in any way to inform the public about everything they do, other companies never give the public anything more than few vids before game release ... besides ... they are the "game designers" not us .. if they take our opinion about everything the game won't be finished until 2050. :crazyeyes:

Probably because they made the decision without any testing. It was probably just a rational decision and not an empirical - again an indication that they didn't even try to fix the broken system.

Again there is no way to prove your assumptions, on the other hand we do know for a FACT that they don't release any game without insuring that it gets tested and has a certain level of quality (PROOF is the many games they canceled during the testing phase) .. so please don't make baseless assumptions without any way to support them.



If you make to drastic change, it's not diablo III. It may still be a great game, though it won't be a sequel. If they make diablo III, we want to see things from diablo II return.


But things have to change, cause it is a sequel not an expansion .. there are already drastic changes between D1 and D2 ... only the very basic things stayed unchanged.

To me, that seems like a system with the same functionality as stast, though with calling it stats.

Why?

If you want such as system, then put in stats. Or stay away form such as system and make a game without stats - or stat-like functionality.


Why does it always have to be either black or white, put stats "the way i want" or don't put them, that's not productive thinking at all ... if there is a way to put a functionality similar to stats with less problems then so be it ... flexibility people.


Change for the sake of change isn't any better than no change at all.

We can say that almost every change in D3 had very good reason behind it that has been repeated countless times in interviews.


That is wrong on so many levels that I have to wonder if you even read all the arguments made by people who like assigning stats.


Indeed, i'm not new to this argument of manual stats, what i wanted to say is that regardless of all the excuses given it all seems to boil down to wanting D3 to be an exact copy of D2 in terms of customization .. some people can't get rid of the D2 phantom possessing them :crazyeyes:

D3 will definitely have more customization in DIFFERENT ways .. it doesn't have to offer the same exact options in D2 .. cause it's a whole new experience.


Only until people figure out which stat to choose on all pieces of their equipment in order to make the fine balance you are all hoping for completely disappear. Saying auto stats would make for easier balancing is only really true if there was no way to change the stats that we have. There is a way, but I don't like it at this time.


I have to totally disagree ... yes stat altering items will play an important role in character builds in D3 .. that's a fact .. so why is it gonna be more balanced than D2.


Simple ---> in D2 you could freely mess around your stats AND have items that alter your stats too ... with both in action it is insane to balance the game and almost impossible (either the single player or PvP) ... so in order to make balance possible one of the two had to go ... which would you prefer to lose .... either the manual stats that really didn't add much .. or the items which are the core of the game .. i think it is quite OBVIOUS why they made the choice to ditch manual stats.


What, they should just be given a winning build on a silver platter? Where is the challenge in that? The fun in a game is overcoming an obstacle.

It is not like a casual will be screwed if he doesn't spend six months researching his build.

There is a difference between a fun obstacle and a frustrating one .. they aren't the same .. i could make the game harder by teleporting the player around randomly every few seconds .. an obstacle yes .. makes the game more fun .. NO.

Besides the challenge is still there ... it is just shifted to something more interesting than the bland stats ... with a large number of items with tons of new suffixes and with customizable skills that exceed any skills number D2 ever had ... there will be tons of customization options and possible builds .. again .. the challenge is there but in a slightly different way than it was in D3 ... if the challenge in D3 is identical to that of D2 so what's the point of it anyway .. just go play D2.



In D2 you could have a functional build without knowing where to put your stats.

Good ... can we peacefully ditch manual stats then :scratchchin:

[Rashiminos]

I would have enjoyed a stat feed system, but that idea found some dust to bite. It's probably more important to fight for the living at this point.

[NASE]

@ Knight_Wolf: there is no reason to assume they have a version of the game where they can test characters in end game environment. So assuming they tested is just as wrong as assuming they didn't test it.

The version where you would want to test something like that just isn't there. Eventually, all they have to do is create a stats path. Stats still need to be given a role and I don't see a reason why this role would be different for both system. So if they want to test it, it should be in end game when the final balancing is done. Not before.

I keep my point, they didn't test it.



P.S. Manual stats aren't annoying in unlike your random teleport, they do add something to the game. Your teleport idea doesn't.
P.P.S. the solution to your problem is to remove stats from spawning on items. And safe for a few items and rings, stats aren't very important anyway. Making this not a big problem.

[Mad Mantis]

The player's ability to move around and attack at different angles, not how well they can tank (less so if you're a Barbarian since that is how they are designed), will greatly impact that player's survival.

I know that it is still possible. I even said so in my post. However with manual stats you could have supported creative use of skills. PDagger for instance can be used to great effect in hit-and-run attacks and even in a straight up tank fight, depending on your build. More options, not fewer.


We can say that almost every change in D3 had very good reason behind it that has been repeated countless times in interviews.

They may have had a good reason, that doesn't automatically make it a correct decision.


what i wanted to say is that regardless of all the excuses given it all seems to boil down to wanting D3 to be an exact copy of D2 in terms of customization.. some people can't get rid of the D2 phantom possessing them :crazyeyes:

I don't want D3 to be a carbon copy of D2. That is an easy insult to end an argument on any change in D3. I'd like to have seen them expand and fix something that had a lot of promise but left a lot to be desired. Stats can be fantastic, as a lot of RPG's have shown. Instead they decided to ditch it completely and go for the easy option. Just auto-stat it.


Simple ---> in D2 you could freely mess around your stats AND have items that alter your stats too ... with both in action it is insane to balance the game and almost impossible (either the single player or PvP) ... so in order to make balance possible one of the two had to go ... which would you prefer to lose .... either the manual stats that really didn't add much .. or the items which are the core of the game .. i think it is quite OBVIOUS why they made the choice to ditch manual stats.[/B]

You assume that it would be a nightmare to balance the game. I can honestly say that I have no experience with it. Seeing Blizz's track record I'm not convinced that balance was high up on their list of reasons.

Also you only see two options for fixing this problem. Maybe there could have been others. People on this forum certainly have suggested a lot of things already.


There is a difference between a fun obstacle and a frustrating one .. they aren't the same .. i could make the game harder by teleporting the player around randomly every few seconds .. an obstacle yes .. makes the game more fun .. NO.

If you honestly believe that character creation is a chore, then why are you subjecting yourself to RPG's? Building your character and designing how he will work is for a lot of players the most enjoyable aspect of these games. If you just want straight action, there are a lot of other games. Not all games have to cater to all people.


Besides the challenge is still there ... it is just shifted to something more interesting than the bland stats ... with a large number of items with tons of new suffixes and with customizable skills that exceed any skills number D2 ever had ... there will be tons of customization options and possible builds .. again .. the challenge is there but in a slightly different way than it was in D3 ... if the challenge in D3 is identical to that of D2 so what's the point of it anyway .. just go play D2.

I'm positive that playing D3 will be fun, that there will still be a good challenge and that we will get a lot of options to customize our builds. I just wanted to have seen more. Stats were one of the biggest let-downs in build creation. There is a whole lot of things that they could have done with it. They just chose not to. That is what I don't like.


Good ... can we peacefully ditch manual stats then :scratchchin:

They already did.

[Knight_Wolf]

@ Knight_Wolf: there is no reason to assume they have a version of the game where they can test characters in end game environment. So assuming they tested is just as wrong as assuming they didn't test it.

The version where you would want to test something like that just isn't there. Eventually, all they have to do is create a stats path. Stats still need to be given a role and I don't see a reason why this role would be different for both system. So if they want to test it, it should be in end game when the final balancing is done. Not before.

I keep my point, they didn't test it.

First ... we have no details on how exactly they do the testing process so you can't say "So if they want to test it, it should be in end game when the final balancing is done. Not before" ... second ... your point is delusional as long as you can't prove it .. either they tested it or not .. you can never be affirmative about it like "they didn't test it" .. you got a spy there or something :crazyeyes:

Actually there are more reasons to think they tested it than the other way around .. if they didn't care about testing every element of their game and making several iterations (sometimes more than 8 different iterations of the same game) the game would have been out 2 or 3 years ago ... this is a very strong reason to believe they tested it out more that your baseless unsupported assumptions.


P.S. Manual stats aren't annoying in unlike your random teleport, they do add something to the game. Your teleport idea doesn't.

Random teleport adds challenge .. you gotta love challenge *teleports around randomly* :crazyeyes:

Ahm .. seriously .. if something adds some little challenge but also causes more problems .. its place is the gaming design garbage bin.


P.P.S. the solution to your problem is to remove stats from spawning on items. And safe for a few items and rings, stats aren't very important anyway. Making this not a big problem.

It is way harder to find the item that gives you the exact stat value you want (aha .. a challenge .. and finding new items is the most fun challenge in Diablo i guess) .... unlike how exploitable and easy it is to mess around with your stats ... look at the bigger picture .. now items will have more functions and will be more important, fun and challenging than before since there will be more factors that play in your choice of items.

You might find the item that gives you that stat you want but it has some suffixes you don't want .. or simply doesn't have enough DEF or DPS ... the possibilities are endless with randomized items.

With manual stats all you do is just spam the stats manual allocation button whenever you level up ... ooooh lots of challenge :crazyeyes:

They may have had a good reason, that doesn't automatically make it a correct decision.


Ahm .. and who happens to have the game under his hands for testing purposes and has actually been working on it for more than 3 years .. them .. not us.

Actually all the theories and assumptions we make are equally "bubbles" in the end .. they have no base or ground whatsoever cause we don't have the game under our hands to test them out.

They are the ONLY ones able to make the correct decisions at this stage (maybe things will be different if we have a BETA).


Instead they decided to ditch it completely and go for the easy option. Just auto-stat it.

That's were you are wrong .. how do you know it is the EASY option when you don't even have the game and didn't develop anything in it ... there are already unannounced systems they didn't uncover yet .. you are just jumping to hasty conclusions.

We can say they Auto-stat it to make room for better balance and make room for the other game systems that will be revealed soon .. that makes more sense.


Seeing Blizz's track record I'm not convinced that balance was high up on their list of reasons.

Are you sure you are talking about the same Blizz .. i don't think so .. they are the only company that really cares about balance and keeps making several iterations of their games and even ditch the game completely if it didn't meet their quality standard ... they also kept releasing patches to cover any balance issues that might come up (which is inevitable) .. even for ten years old games .. name me one company that releases patches for ten years old games .. NONE.


I'm positive that playing D3 will be fun, that there will still be a good challenge and that we will get a lot of options to customize our builds. I just wanted to have seen more. Stats were one of the biggest let-downs in build creation. There is a whole lot of things that they could have done with it. They just chose not to. That is what I don't like.

Like i said ... if something offered more customization options ... BUT .. also caused more problems than it added to the game .. then sorry .. it has to be removed and replaced with something else.

[Demetrium]

Build/stat discussion is outside the scope of this thread.
Discussion of these things is probably the opposite of where I originally wanted this thread to go.

Limitations are limitations. In Diablo2 I didn't catch myself saying stuff like "Oh my god this poisonmancer would be badass if I could only somehow get poison javelin in this build". If there's a case when D3 comes out and you can't feasibly make your crazyBuild453 with a melee sorceress, tough nuggets; it's not the intended role of the class and was probably limited for this reason or another. If you want silly endless possibilities for builds you're probably playing the wrong game. A line has to be drawn somewhere.

I understand your gripe, but I also feel the people designing the game have a better idea of where it will head depending on varying amounts freedom. I think they more than anyone have an educated perspective in the matter. I also don't want to log into D3 a few weeks after release and get PKd by a barbarian casting frozen orb or a sorceress 1shotting me with a melee strike with some bull**** enchanted weapon.

[NASE]

It is way harder to find the item that gives you the exact stat value you want (aha .. a challenge .. and finding new items is the most fun challenge in Diablo i guess) .... unlike how exploitable and easy it is to mess around with your stats ... look at the bigger picture .. now items will have more functions and will be more important, fun and challenging than before since there will be more factors that play in your choice of items.

The problem is that items will play an function they should not be playing. Items are not there to meet 'stats-breakpoints'. Items are there to cover anything but stats. If you are going to give items the function of stats-replacement, you are making things complicated where they shouldn't be complicated.
If you are looking at one items that is interesting for a barbarian - because it offers str. That same items won't be interesting for an elemental mele character because such a character doesn't want str, it wants life or mana.
Thus you are closing of option, not opening them.

Auto stats are the walhalla you want them to be.

[stillman]

I still don't see a problem at all, except for people wanting it to be so very similar to d2. As Knight mentioned, d2 was drastically different from d1: runnning, pets, merc's, and skill trees were added. Spell books, spell scrolls, and unlimited arrows were taken away. D2 was still a sequal, even with all those major changes.

If d3 completely removes gold and replaces it with gems or pearls or w/e, I don't see how this makes it less of a sequal. I don't see how auto stats and other big changes make it less Diabloish.

They added a whole new feature called skill runes; that alone could make up for the loss of perfect stat control. Then there's the talisman which they might keep in and w/e mechanics they say have yet to be disclosed.

Mantis, I think Blizzard would be very foolish to mess up balance worse than in d2. They seem to have learned substantially from their past mistakes.

I've never seen so much doom and gloom revolving around a single issue. Having auto stats lessen the total customization (making it less than d2) is the ABSOLUTE WORST CASE SENARIO. Blizzard would be retarded to make d3 with less customization than d2. In fact, I believe it is IMPOSSIBLE for Blizzard to mess this up. They're not going to allow d3 to have less customization than d2. That would be like, idk, not having any spell casters in the game. It would be like having far fewer items in d3 than in d2. They're just not that stupid at Blizzard headquarters.

I just think the whole notion of d3 ending up with less customization than d2 is a complete impossibility and I don't understand why so many of you would make that assumption.

Edit: I'm not saying everyone is assuming this, but many people are and it's ridiculous.

[Mad Mantis]

They are the ONLY ones able to make the correct decisions at this stage (maybe things will be different if we have a BETA).

They are the only ones able to make decisions, since they are working on the game. They can still be incorrect decisions. The way I see it now auto-stats are an incorrect decision. That might change.


That's were you are wrong .. how do you know it is the EASY option when you don't even have the game and didn't develop anything in it ...

Cutting things is easier than making them work in a new framework. Considering that they removed something we can easily claim that it was the easier option.


We can say they Auto-stat it to make room for better balance and make room for the other game systems that will be revealed soon .. that makes more sense.

That is unadulterated wishful thinking. We can judge the game by what they have revealed, not by what they haven't.


they are the only company that really cares about balance and keeps making several iterations of their games and even ditch the game completely if it didn't meet their quality standard ... they also kept releasing patches to cover any balance issues that might come up

The same company that has been ignoring the insane unresistable damage from a certain paladin build for a long time. They support their games, I don't try to deny that, but they seldom get balance anywhere near correct.


Mantis, I think Blizzard would be very foolish to mess up balance worse than in d2. They seem to have learned substantially from their past mistakes.

The proof of the pudding's in the eating

[Tyrone]

Seeing Blizz's track record I'm not convinced that balance was high up on their list of reasons.

Someone got owned by one too many pallies in WoW...;)

[AkumaSlayer]

Does anyone else find this thread ironic?

Btw, I won't mind the auto stat points as long as I can still create alternative builds like the melee sorcerer (which seems possible given the skills). Here's hoping!

[satheron]

To add to NASE's list of stat-dependent builds which were widely played and used extensively in PVP:

1.09 BvB dueler. These builds used high strength to counter other barbs. Very effective vs the 1.09 cookiecutter WW barb.

Forgive me, but to me a character built only to be able to handle one class in the game in strictly a pvp setting isn't exactly my idea of the peak of flexibility in class creation.

It really seems kind of narrow, and limited.

[NASE]

Forgive me, but to me a character built only to be able to handle one class in the game in strictly a pvp setting isn't exactly my idea of the peak of flexibility in class creation.

It really seems kind of narrow, and limited.

Nevertheless is it an example of how different stats allocation can be important for some builds.
And an example of how a character - the barbarian - can be designed to support different stats allocation - without making less then optimal builds.

[satheron]

Nevertheless is it an example of how different stats allocation can be important for some builds.
And an example of how a character - the barbarian - can be designed to support different stats allocation - without making less then optimal builds.

While its an example..its not an exsisting example.
That would be patch 1.09, which was...a number of years ago.

Thats like saying "well the bow and Arrow is a critical Tool in warfare" Then citing a war that happened. 1000 years ago..

Currently, in reality, any barb that wants to stand a chance in pvp is going to use the lowest str enigma he can get his hands on.

If builds that haven't exsisted for years, and have no real pvp viability outside of one class makes up this list of builds that depend on independent stat allocation...then it seems like I won't miss it.

If you take into consideration any Enchantress, they are going to want..max block..lowest str possible, and the rest in vit. And guess what? Thats exactly the same as any FB sorc, Light, Cold that would take advantage of max block in pvp.

Stats on well made characters are similar as it is. Really all this is doing is taking away headache of making sure you have the same exact stats or close to it as everyone else to be optimal. And does that for you, since there is little difference in well made characters stat wise in diablo 2 to begin with.

[Turnip]

Well thats a problem with vit being overpowered, they are going about the wrong way of making sure people dont "break" their characters. Imagine if shield block didnt exist, no one would put dex either; yet by adding block casters wont break their character by adding dex.

Id say increase the damage bonus on str, and make more energy shield type spells for mana; dont get rid of stat allocation altogether. Anyways I feel like the diablo 3 devs are the wrong people for the job by getting rid of something so vital to diablo 2.

[Doctor Salvador]

Well thats a problem with vit being overpowered, they are going about the wrong way of making sure people dont "break" their characters. Imagine if shield block didnt exist, no one would put dex either; yet by adding block casters wont break their character by adding dex.

Id say increase the damage bonus on str, and make more energy shield type spells for mana; dont get rid of stat allocation altogether. Anyways I feel like the diablo 3 devs are the wrong people for the job by getting rid of something so vital to diablo 2.

All of the stats in D3 have become much more important than in D2, by that I mean that pumping one stat and leaving out others is a very bad idea.

The thing is though, I really never thought of manual stat placement as so vital, look at D1 and D2. In both games there wasn't much 'customization' as people are talking about, there was and is one good way to set your stats. However, the new and improved stats are much more balanced, but I do see why blizz gave manual stats the boot. It will just make balancing that much easier, and there won't be as much stat abuse as there was in the previous Diablo games (especially D2). And for those that just want Blizz to give manual stat placement a try instead of going the 'easy' route, well, they did, twice, and now they're trying something else. Let's hope it works out well.

[Turnip]

I dont think most players who like d2 care about balance that much, especially not enough to give up customization. I mean look at d2, nothing about it is balanced.

[a black kid]

i think the main problem with the people whining and complaining that it looks like wow is a thing brought on by blizzard.

i remember being on the dii.net boards oh... about 9 years ago? when d2 was still in the making, and they were working on the expansion, and there was hardly any whining, game comparisons, or *****ing like there is today. there was A LOT of good discussions about gameplay and theories and all that fun jazz.

the problem comes in because with WoW, blizzard's player base got extremely huge, including more whiney kids than an online game has ever seen the like. and what does blizzard do? (for the most part) it makes game changes and balance issues based on which class forum does the most whining. so now all the people who feel their opinion is more important and better and more logical than anyone elses are now crowding all the forums.

and to the people who think d3 is a lot like wow... did you play wow? did you not notice similar elements from wow they got from d2? its a blizzard game, they are all blizzard games, they are all gonna take things they learned from previous games and use them to enhance the next game. so really... the 'its wow with a diablo skin' is getting pretty damn old.

[NASE]

Thats like saying "well the bow and Arrow is a critical Tool in warfare" Then citing a war that happened. 1000 years ago..

It's history and we should learn from history. To make this real, why do you think every country in the world uses range weapons and not mele weapons?
The answer is easy, the look at history and saw that it has potential. Then the examined why, looked at the possibilities, though about improvements and tried there improvements. It wasn't God that said, you will now use guns.

If you take into consideration any Enchantress, they are going to want..max block..lowest str possible, and the rest in vit. And guess what? Thats exactly the same as any FB sorc, Light, Cold that would take advantage of max block in pvp.

It's already in this thread, so read it. What you are saying isn't true. For pvp, you have full vit 200 fcr fire sorcerers and max block fire sorcerers. And you have people that use energy shield that use mana and life.
For pvm, you still have a lot of different approaches. Many will go for spirit or Lidless Wall and a full vite build. However, people that value survivability, like hardcore players, will consider max block. Even then, there is difference. Some will use stormsheild because they can afford it, other people will try to get max block with other shields and therefore need more or less dex.

And does that for you, since there is little difference in well made characters stat wise in diablo 2 to begin with.

That's not true. Eventhough the majority of builds are similar, there are example of how it can be different. And I believe we should learn about the good things as much as we learn about the bad things.

[satheron]

I guess I see your point? Learn from history?
As far as 1.09, and your barb build went I think blizzard did an outstanding job learning from history. Runewords have no place, like the Enigma.
The real irony is..D2 wrecked your build way back post 1.09 with itemization well before this auto-stat allocation came along.

And I know its already in the thread, I did read it. I was more or less preparing for any rebuttals, I figured if I didn't mention the enchantress would of been in there. So I did. Anyway as far as some of your variations of sorc..again just like your history lesson this is more gear than stats. Unless you can show me the stat that raises FCR. The second part of this paragraph your going on about varation in gear...not stats..
Your main concern seems to be that a with auto stat allocation any player might not see max block that would desire to spend the points in it?
You will notice something striking, is that you don't have max block with each shield, you gotta spend the right amount of points for the item you choose to block with. So in the same respect stats can be auto-allocated, and blocking ability will be dependant on the shield...just like now.

As for the Eshield, thats a good point to note, sorry I missed it. But to be fair, you can't argue that a player starting new could make this build JUST because he can choose his own stats. Gear, as in the rest of your points play a more heavy part than you realize. Plus energy is only effective for a sorc if they choose to be ES.

While yes its a build that uses a stat to power it, its not the only key driving any build. You also have Gear, which you brought up plenty without knowing because of block. And Skills which you also brought up. While yes auto stats aren't coming back, you still have gear..which we already will be different, and more stat heavy. And skills we only have a small taste of.
Plus the customization options blizzard has yet to reveal.

Think about it since you don't have to have you stats Perfect just to use a single set of gear, you gain the customization options of changing out pieces of gear depending on what stats you want to focus on.

It's history and we should learn from history. To make this real, why do you think every country in the world uses range weapons and not mele weapons?
The answer is easy, the look at history and saw that it has potential. Then the examined why, looked at the possibilities, though about improvements and tried there improvements. It wasn't God that said, you will now use guns


It's already in this thread, so read it. What you are saying isn't true. For pvp, you have full vit 200 fcr fire sorcerers and max block fire sorcerers. And you have people that use energy shield that use mana and life.
For pvm, you still have a lot of different approaches. Many will go for spirit or Lidless Wall and a full vite build. However, people that value survivability, like hardcore players, will consider max block. Even then, there is difference. Some will use stormsheild because they can afford it, other people will try to get max block with other shields and therefore need more or less dex.



That's not true. Eventhough the majority of builds are similar, there are example of how it can be different. And I believe we should learn about the good things as much as we learn about the bad things.

[NASE]

I guess I see your point? Learn from history?
As far as 1.09, and your barb build went I think blizzard did an outstanding job learning from history. Runewords have no place, like the Enigma.

I'm glad you see that the problem is the nature of enigma and not the nature of runewords. Lets just hope Blizzard sees it this way too.

Unless you can show me the stat that raises FCR. The second part of this paragraph your going on about varation in gear...not stats..

the stats that affect fcr is dexterity or vitality. Because you chose not to go with much dex and with much vit, you haven't waste points in dex so you can use a fcr shield. Try building the same 200 fcr build with the dex needed to get max block - which is what might happen with auto skills. you will see that the builds doesn't have what it needs.
So by making a decision about stats, you can have fcr or you can't.
You can off course turn it around and say that the shield determines your stats allocation. I'm not going to disagree, though you can deny that stats are part of the question in one way or an other. Same goes for different shields and max block, depending on what shield you use, you need more or less dex making this a factor to consider.

Your main concern seems to be that a with auto stat allocation any player might not see max block that would desire to spend the points in it?
You will notice something striking, is that you don't have max block with each shield, you gotta spend the right amount of points for the item you choose to block with. So in the same respect stats can be auto-allocated, and blocking ability will be dependant on the shield...just like now.

As for the Eshield, thats a good point to note, sorry I missed it. But to be fair, you can't argue that a player starting new could make this build JUST because he can choose his own stats. Gear, as in the rest of your points play a more heavy part than you realize. Plus energy is only effective for a sorc if they choose to be ES.

The point is that manual stats make this build easier. The first guide listed in the sorcerers for advise base life and max mana. That different from any other build. And you can't make the build from the guides as it needs different stats.

While yes its a build that uses a stat to power it, its not the only key driving any build.

The guides disagree and clearly mark energy investment as very important.

Think about it since you don't have to have you stats Perfect just to use a single set of gear, you gain the customization options of changing out pieces of gear depending on what stats you want to focus on.

Using gear to mimic stats function isn't the function of gear and I'm not sure this is something we need to have. This opens the option to totally change build depending on the situation, I believe it's better to build for all situationa and that one shouldn't find gear for every part of the game.

And I'm not denying that auto stats have some advantages. Though you can't deny that auto stats have disadvantages too.

[Telzen]

Auto stats by themselves do, which is why the passives are there. I've already pointed out how anything you could do with manual stats in D2 can be done with passives in D3, why can you not just accept it?

[NASE]

The difference is that stats are different from skills and that skills shouldn't mimic stats behaviour - atleast not as a rule. The second problem is that now, stat-like effect are in competition with skills, something that isn't needed.

As a DII paladin, you don't want to be forced to choice between a shield and fanaticism, now do you? Something similar happens with auto stats and stat mimic behaviour. You are forced to choice between two things that don't have relation with each other and the shouldn't be compared.


P.S. And still, even with the passives from D3, manual stats can still have effect. If I believe I need a character with max life and max life mastery, then why do you think I shouldn't?

[Popeye]

I think the problem here is that we are looking the improvements in diablo 3 and adjusting them in the diablo 2 to see how they're going to work, while it's very probable that the stats (for example) won't have the same importance in the building of a character as they have in d2.

[stillman]

The difference is that stats are different from skills and that skills shouldn't mimic stats behaviour - atleast not as a rule. The second problem is that now, stat-like effect are in competition with skills, something that isn't needed.

As a DII paladin, you don't want to be forced to choice between a shield and fanaticism, now do you? Something similar happens with auto stats and stat mimic behaviour. You are forced to choice between two things that don't have relation with each other and the shouldn't be compared.


P.S. And still, even with the passives from D3, manual stats can still have effect. If I believe I need a character with max life and max life mastery, then why do you think I shouldn't?

Actually, I do want to be forced to make a choice between a shield and fanat. Of course, it would not really as bad as you paint it in your example. You get 100 skill points to play with so you can always have both. The real choice would wether you should max one or the other. You can't go to the super extreme with both.

In d2, you could go to the super extreme. Ex: galss cannon bowazon using stats (all dex) and skills to make other bow builds looks silly and pointless (way too underpwered compared to glass cannon). Maybe it's time for Blizzard to limit our options a bit. Choosing between maxing shield and maxing fanat means you can't have it all. It makes more builds tie for first place instead of having one cheese build that rules them all.

[NASE]

I think the problem here is that we are looking the improvements in diablo 3 and adjusting them in the diablo 2 to see how they're going to work, while it's very probable that the stats (for example) won't have the same importance in the building of a character as they have in d2.

True.

Yet I believe that they should design their characters so that they function like those builds in diablo II mainly because I believe that's a superior system.

[Doctor Salvador]

True.

Yet I believe that they should design their characters so that they function like those builds in diablo II mainly because I believe that's a superior system.

For all we know D2 style maxing will be horrible in D3. They have been talking about forcing players to use strategy and multiple skills, so skipping out on some skills in order to max one or two might not work out so well.

However, it has been brought up that perhaps we will be given more than one skill point per level, so that specializing in something while not forgetting others will be very plausible.

[callsignapollo]

i dont understand, moderators around here have been nit-picking on people who say "*****" or "effin" but the thread starter on here just said "goddam"


so..........


are the mods going to catch that or keep picking on people who aren't actually cursing


or..... is writing a couple of asterisks ***** worse than saying goddam?


mods....?



-Callsign

[AkumaSlayer]

(a) I remember seeing that post yesterday and thinking to myself "how stupid, it's obvious the poster wasn't intentionally bypassing the word filter".

(b) I doubt many people on here will find "goddam" offensive, but that's beside the point.

(c) This has nothing to do with the topic so I'm probably going to leave it at that.

[Demetrium]

i dont understand, moderators around here have been nit-picking on people who say "*****" or "effin" but the thread starter on here just said "goddam"


so..........


are the mods going to catch that or keep picking on people who aren't actually cursing


or..... is writing a couple of asterisks ***** worse than saying goddam?


mods....?



-Callsign

The difference is that I am awesome. Also I voted for Obama.

Besides, who the hell cares? It's the friggin' internet. If you can't tolerate a bunch of asterisks and words that will probably be voice acted in the game anyway, you should probably be watching more Battlestar Galactica and participating less in this thread.

[Turnip]

The real choice would wether you should max one or the other. You can't go to the super extreme with both.

In d2, you could go to the super extreme. Ex: galss cannon bowazon using stats (all dex) and skills to make other bow builds looks silly and pointless (way too underpwered compared to glass cannon).



Based on different game modes (hardcore normal), different skill levels, personal preference I'd say a glass cannon isnt overpowered. Anyways If I want a glass cannon I should be able to make one whether its underpowered or overpowered, I dont care if its "balanced"; since when is diablo about balance??? How is making every character assembly line a better system... why is someone else deciding whether I can make a certain build or not... where do all the unique crazy builds go when blizzard streamlines everything?

[AkumaSlayer]

The difference is that I am awesome. Also I voted for Obama.

Besides, who the hell cares? It's the friggin' internet. If you can't tolerate a bunch of asterisks and words that will probably be voice acted in the game anyway, you should probably be watching more Battlestar Galactica and participating less in this thread.

It's funny cos he has a Battlestar Galactica avatar! (maybe I didn't need to point this out :jig:)

[Popeye]

I don't know why should we even worry about the impossibility of making a weird character. To me those sorceress waving mauls or barbs shooting arrows were attemps of making the game more interesting after playing it for three years, wich is impossible. No one came at first saying "oh, i'll try to use that huge blonde girl on some axes to see how this work". I think that if Blizzard do this game good enough, we won't have to improvise on those things after a certain time to get fun.

[Funkopotamus]

I don't know why should we even worry about the impossibility of making a weird character. To me those sorceress waving mauls or barbs shooting arrows were attemps of making the game more interesting after playing it for three years, wich is impossible. No one came at first saying "oh, i'll try to use that huge blonde girl on some axes to see how this work". I think that if Blizzard do this game good enough, we won't have to improvise on those things after a certain time to get fun.

I don't think any game is going to be "good enough" to eliminate human curiosity. If it can be tried someone will try it and some enjoy trying things.

[satheron]

I'm glad you see that the problem is the nature of enigma and not the nature of runewords. Lets just hope Blizzard sees it this way too.



the stats that affect fcr is dexterity or vitality. Because you chose not to go with much dex and with much vit, you haven't waste points in dex so you can use a fcr shield. Try building the same 200 fcr build with the dex needed to get max block - which is what might happen with auto skills. you will see that the builds doesn't have what it needs.
So by making a decision about stats, you can have fcr or you can't.
You can off course turn it around and say that the shield determines your stats allocation. I'm not going to disagree, though you can deny that stats are part of the question in one way or an other. Same goes for different shields and max block, depending on what shield you use, you need more or less dex making this a factor to consider.

Your main concern seems to be that a with auto stat allocation any player might not see max block that would desire to spend the points in it?
You will notice something striking, is that you don't have max block with each shield, you gotta spend the right amount of points for the item you choose to block with. So in the same respect stats can be auto-allocated, and blocking ability will be dependant on the shield...just like now.



The point is that manual stats make this build easier. The first guide listed in the sorcerers for advise base life and max mana. That different from any other build. And you can't make the build from the guides as it needs different stats.



The guides disagree and clearly mark energy investment as very important.



Using gear to mimic stats function isn't the function of gear and I'm not sure this is something we need to have. This opens the option to totally change build depending on the situation, I believe it's better to build for all situationa and that one shouldn't find gear for every part of the game.

And I'm not denying that auto stats have some advantages. Though you can't deny that auto stats have disadvantages too.


yea I agree there are some disadvantages to it, and when I first heard about this whole thing I really didn't like it either.. But over time I guess it grew on me? When I think about Diablo I, each character had caps on their stats, so a Warrior could only put so many points in each stat. Of course A lot of gear was heavy in stats. So who knows.
,
When I used to play wow, I had a priest and each time I would level up, I would say to myself, what good do those points in dex do me exactly?

I would of definitely been happy to redirect them to Stam/intel/spirit.

[Knight_Wolf]

Based on different game modes (hardcore normal), different skill levels, personal preference I'd say a glass cannon isnt overpowered. Anyways If I want a glass cannon I should be able to make one whether its underpowered or overpowered, I dont care if its "balanced"; since when is diablo about balance??? How is making every character assembly line a better system... why is someone else deciding whether I can make a certain build or not... where do all the unique crazy builds go when blizzard streamlines everything?


The problem with the previous Diablo titles is that they lacked balance, balance was made almost impossible due to the fact that there were too many variables (skills, stats, items), that resulted in broken gameplay (specially evident in PvP) were some classes or builds dominate and all other options become obsolete compared to them no matter how good they are.

Regulating everything insures every class and every possible good build will have a place in any PvE or PvP game .. which is overall way much better for the game.



why is someone else deciding whether I can make a certain build or not

Oh .. well .. we might as well drop the whole classes system all together and work our way with blank characters .. sigh ... too much customization isn't always a good thing.

I don't know why should we even worry about the impossibility of making a weird character. To me those sorceress waving mauls or barbs shooting arrows were attemps of making the game more interesting after playing it for three years, wich is impossible. No one came at first saying "oh, i'll try to use that huge blonde girl on some axes to see how this work". I think that if Blizzard do this game good enough, we won't have to improvise on those things after a certain time to get fun.

Well said ... but even in D3 it will still be possible to create varied builds and different approaches to each class (i.e Melee Wizard) .. the only difference is that it is more regulated and under control (by making the skills the main "build" crafting tool) which makes things easier to balance and fine tune for the Devs.

[visom]

Many people seem to be forgetting this but, in D2 blizzard never intentionally tried to make the sorceress melee compatible, it's just the people who aren't afraid of experimenting that found it out. D3 is the same all over again, blizzard doesn't intend the wizard to have a good melee fighter, however does that mean it's impossible for you to experiment and test out?

[Doctor Salvador]

Many people seem to be forgetting this but, in D2 blizzard never intentionally tried to make the sorceress melee compatible, it's just the people who aren't afraid of experimenting that found it out. D3 is the same all over again, blizzard doesn't intend the wizard to have a good melee fighter, however does that mean it's impossible for you to experiment and test out?

I swear JW or Bashiok or whoever said specifically that they purposely made it very plausible to have a melee Wizard, hence all the melee goodies she has. I get your point though, but the melee Wizard was just a bad example.

[Popeye]

I don't think any game is going to be "good enough" to eliminate human curiosity. If it can be tried someone will try it and some enjoy trying things.

I think that a good game it's the one that grows because of the human curiosity instead of limiting its manifestations. When you use a barbarian character for shooting arrows to see how this works, you won't be truly amused, and those are the borders that stats put in your game, because they are made to be administrated in a specific way for each class.
If blizzard makes this thing for you, and instead, makes that the characters are more differentiated by the skills we chose, I think that we are going to be more capable of experimenting in comparison of d2.

[satheron]

I don't know why should we even worry about the impossibility of making a weird character. To me those sorceress waving mauls or barbs shooting arrows were attemps of making the game more interesting after playing it for three years, wich is impossible. No one came at first saying "oh, i'll try to use that huge blonde girl on some axes to see how this work". I think that if Blizzard do this game good enough, we won't have to improvise on those things after a certain time to get fun.

Agreed.


Also considering a lot of those off the wall builds were, and still are highly expensive, some needing perfect gear to even be competitive.
You just don't have that, nor what that starting new.

[Funkopotamus]

I think that a good game it's the one that grows because of the human curiosity instead of limiting its manifestations. When you use a barbarian character for shooting arrows to see how this works, you won't be truly amused, and those are the borders that stats put in your game, because they are made to be administrated in a specific way for each class.
If blizzard makes this thing for you, and instead, makes that the characters are more differentiated by the skills we chose, I think that we are going to be more capable of experimenting in comparison of d2.
...What? I'm not talking about stats. I'm saying some people like to try what is unintended. I am one of them, and because I doubt my opinion is unique I'm sure others like to do it to. I find the unintended methods way more entertaining than the intended whether they are effective or not. Take the bow-barb example - If he had skills that worked with bows there'd be nothing to explore, it's just a barb berserking with a bow, or whatever skill would hypothetically work with the bow.

[raveharu]

You know what my biggest gripe about Diablo3 is so far? It's potential players who have the most obscure, irrelevant gripes about it and feel the need to post that they're not going to play it unless the game turns into a FMV of Survivorman with a Tetris overlay.

I'm sick to my stomach over the fact every other thread on this goddam forum has some sort of ****ty analogy as to why D3 is going to be bad for a nonsensical reason. The game looks like WoW! The inventory management system is too easy! I don't like the fact the only source of health/mana is potions anymore, I refuse to play the game for this reason alone! Some attributes might automatically be delegated for me; this game is a fascist piece of ****! Why are you even registering and posting if this is seriously the case? Go shine your shoes and then complain to Kiki shoe polish and ***** about how they made it too easy by creating brush with an auto-distributing polish mechanism.

World of Warcraft has a user interface and is a game made by Blizzard. So does every other videogame created dating back to Rock and Roll Racing. Is Rock and Roll Racing any worse of a game because they share this feature? You may or may not like or appreciate WoW for x reason, but the game isn't extremely successful because it was designed by a bunch of beef-witted Klingons. It has some great components, like an auction house system which make it so I don't have to use an EZboard forum like j2dsp and use "forum gold" currency to do trading and ensure I don't get scammed by some fag. If you don't like D3 so far because of the art style, fine, you're entitled to your opinions regardless of how paltry they are. Just don't throw them around and source WoW as your reason. Do us a favor and keep them to yourself.

Look at the reasons you played Diablo2 and I'm sure the majority of them can still be found within Diablo3. Half of you would like to see D2 with an updated graphics engine and then would completely whine about how unoriginal Blizzard is. Stacking items in a grid is not a gameplay mechanic. The game is far less colorful and fruity than Diablo2 was. Diablo2 had automatically allocated stats. Having an auction system is not a bad idea. Posting ****ty reasons why you won't play Diablo3 is a bad idea.

Seriously when D3's out, all these morons will just STF* and play the game.

[Funkopotamus]

I could see a good portion of the people talking about the game not even buying it. Take it how you will.

[Turnip]

I imagine people will still buy it but will say it doesnt have as much replayability as diablo 2 did and quit after a few months..