Why not use CAPTCHA to stop bots?

[Ouroboros]

I was thinking ..
At game creation, the server should prompt a simple image verification test (CAPTCHA).

Wouldn't that effectively put an end to botting ?

CAPTCHA wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captcha

edit: added image

example:
http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/6740/image2fk3.jpg

[NASE]

Wouldn't that effectively put an end to botting ?

Yes it would.

However.

It would stop normal play aswell. It's annoying as hell.

[visom]

A captcha would seriously harm normal playing that much?

[Ouroboros]

I think the benefits of a bot-free realm far outweighs the hindrance of taking 15 more seconds at game creation to fill out a few letters ... imagine what the game would be like without any botters. The economy would be unique with steady prices,and steady supply. Items which were meant to be rare will not turn up in huge numbers.

Personally, I think someone with clout should contact Blizzard about this to see if they could use it to their benefit.

[Solstice]

Even though the idea is good, I don't think anyone (well most of us) would like it in diablo3. It is just plainly annoying. There would be many complaints. Unless it's registration only, I don't think it'd work very well with players.

[NASE]

It's like those alerts in vista.
It's annoying.



btw, it isn't even sure it will prevent bots. It will simply change the way bots work. Now, bots run baal and perhaps the easy access bosses. If you implement something like that, bots will simply clear the whole game in instances that last for multiple hours. All you need is someone to fill in a few of those captions and you don't have a problem - and lets be honest, for some people, that would be a dream job.

[Echod16]

I think the benefits of a bot-free realm far outweighs the hindrance of taking 15 more seconds at game creation to fill out a few letters ... imagine what the game would be like without any botters. The economy would be unique with steady prices,and steady supply. Items which were meant to be rare will not turn up in huge numbers.

Personally, I think someone with clout should contact Blizzard about this to see if they could use it to their benefit.

This post's explanations is filled with win that was once thought mythical, it brings tears to my eyes

[Funkopotamus]

I think there are already ways around some captchas. There might not even be a worthwhile method of disguising the text anymore by the time the game comes out. I don't know about anyone else but some are barely legible as it is. Ever see the ones that are like "Type the letters with the kittens on them"? Annoying as crap.

[Ouroboros]

Hmmm .. Maybe we should do a poll test to see if people would be open to an image verification at game creation.

Of course, if the majority of people are irked by it, it fails as a good idea.

However, it is difficult to believe there is no one else who feels the annoyance is worth safe, secure, bot-free realms.

Thinking about some of the points the posters made in these threads, I did some research.

Here is an intelligent captcha, which is more difficult for bots to recognize, as it doesnt use text. See if the comfort level in using something like this would tip your opinion.

http://www.toallwhoseekit.net/cgi-bin/sq-pix

[Synchrotron]

Stop playing to type those damn words? No way, breaks all the imersion.

I believe there are other ways to prevent botting and i'm more concerned about the anti dupe and anti hacks them botting.

PS: that captcha http://www.toallwhoseekit.net/cgi-bin/sq-pix FAILS HARD!! you have to draw a perfect triangle and to do that you cant draw too fast. Its a big problem in the middle of a game (even if the captcha pauses the game while you draw).

[SnickerSnack]

btw, it isn't even sure it will prevent bots. It will simply change the way bots work. Now, bots run baal and perhaps the easy access bosses. If you implement something like that, bots will simply clear the whole game in instances that last for multiple hours. All you need is someone to fill in a few of those captions and you don't have a problem - and lets be honest, for some people, that would be a dream job.

That's true. Captchas wouldn't eliminate botters all together, but it would change the way they work. The big difference is that there would no longer be a need for time limits on making new games. No more temp bans for making games too fast. Wouldn't eliminating one of the top two or three complaints about bnet be worth doing a captcha whenever you make a new game?

Here is an intelligent captcha, which is more difficult for bots to recognize, as it doesnt use text. See if the comfort level in using something like this would tip your opinion.

I failed that half the time. I suppose if you had to do it 10 times a day you would get good at it though. Also, I think it would be relatively easy to write a program to solve that particular captcha since all of the images have triangular objects. It's pretty easy for computers to pick out specific type of images. It would use the same mechanism that allows face recognition. But, that would take some serious effort and serious computing power. A home computer wouldn't be able to do that very quickly if the images were large.

EDIT: I did a few more and found that the images were not all triangular. Nevermind what I said.

[Orphan]

PS: that captcha http://www.toallwhoseekit.net/cgi-bin/sq-pix FAILS HARD!! you have to draw a perfect triangle and to do that you cant draw too fast. Its a big problem in the middle of a game (even if the captcha pauses the game while you draw).

I went through several of the pictures and one of them required me to draw around a doll (human in shape) and all I did was draw a circle around it which was apparently sufficient for me to pass.

I imagine if the test was pretty forgiving then it shouldn't hinder things too much.

[Ouroboros]

Maybe I'm beating a dead horse but I found yet another interesting captcha.

This one seems fairly simple and effective. lemme kno wat u think. It also will not take more than 5 secs to pass the test, so its not as annoying as typing text into a box.

http://www.captcha.net/cgi-bin/esp-pix?another=Take+another+test

enjoy!

-the Captcha warrior

j/k

[Grug]

Yeah, if you guys tried the picture captcha, it's not a triangle you're suppsoed to trace. You have to draw the outline of what it asks for. for example, draw around the Dog.

[teh_Thrasher]

Stop playing to type those damn words? No way, breaks all the imersion.

I believe there are other ways to prevent botting and i'm more concerned about the anti dupe and anti hacks them botting.

PS: that captcha http://www.toallwhoseekit.net/cgi-bin/sq-pix FAILS HARD!! you have to draw a perfect triangle and to do that you cant draw too fast. Its a big problem in the middle of a game (even if the captcha pauses the game while you draw).

the proposal was to do it upon either game creation or signing in. not during gameplay. that wouldnt even work in a multiplayer game setting..

and it would be well worth the 10 seconds it takes to solve the easy puzzle to not have to deal with bot spam and **** like that.

[noticks]

Maybe I'm beating a dead horse but I found yet another interesting captcha.

This one seems fairly simple and effective. lemme kno wat u think. It also will not take more than 5 secs to pass the test, so its not as annoying as typing text into a box.

http://www.captcha.net/cgi-bin/esp-pix?another=Take+another+test

enjoy!

-the Captcha warrior

j/k


This version is pretty quick and easy. I don't actually create that many games in a playing session, so it wouldn't bother me to use it. Plus, I think that you wouldn't have to use it to join games... or would you? Either way if it slows the bots, I'm for it.

[Dahmer]

It's like those alerts in vista.
It's annoying.



btw, it isn't even sure it will prevent bots. It will simply change the way bots work. Now, bots run baal and perhaps the easy access bosses. If you implement something like that, bots will simply clear the whole game in instances that last for multiple hours. All you need is someone to fill in a few of those captions and you don't have a problem - and lets be honest, for some people, that would be a dream job.Alerts in vista? Turned them off after getting one...think that says enough :D

Way I play it would annoy me a lot so I'm saying no.

*edit*
I like the picture captcha though, that one might keep idiots away for a bit :p

[ThulRasha]

I think it would be a major anoyance if you have to do this at every game creation, or when joining games.

Only answering a captcha at signing in would not be sufficient. Perhaps once every 5 game creations or once every 10 game joins.
Or perhaps it will only start asking for a capthca if you create or join more than 3 games every hour.

[Bladewind]

For every 5 games put up a text captcha. Would be fairly simple.

[SlechtWeerBeer]

Stop playing to type those damn words? No way, breaks all the imersion.

I believe there are other ways to prevent botting and i'm more concerned about the anti dupe and anti hacks them botting.

PS: that captcha http://www.toallwhoseekit.net/cgi-bin/sq-pix FAILS HARD!! you have to draw a perfect triangle and to do that you cant draw too fast. Its a big problem in the middle of a game (even if the captcha pauses the game while you draw).

Yeah, that captcha is VERY annoying. I've tried it for a little while, and got quite annoyed after a few tries. If you "extend" a bit too far, it also counts as a fail. Sometimes you have to go close to the edge, and then it puts a huge bar on the pic next to it, failing the captcha, too. Blargh.

Every 5 games shouldn't be TOO annoying? Dunno if that would help, though.

[Mad Mantis]

The only thing captcha's do is annoy regular players. Half the time you yourself fail the captcha. Bots will find a way around the captcha.

[visom]

What about a short captcha?

Like the ones you see on some forum website registerations, like "2+2=?" and you just type 4.

[Sass]

Captcha would be far more annoying than helpful. I also doubt it's a fool proof thing vs bots (that weird captcha link doesn't even work for people :S )

[Echod16]

What about a short captcha?

Like the ones you see on some forum website registerations, like "2+2=?" and you just type 4.

5!=???= anti six year olds playing diablo 3 AND bots

: )

[Zeek]

I think captchas are one of the best methods blizzard can use to stop bots. While at the same time I think it sort of ruins the immersion of the game and is annoying. To me if they don't increase the likelihood of drops then I think I'd rather just have the bots get us all the HRs and stuff that we need to play with different builds. When all the baal bots got banned we went right back to annoying baal runs where no one would run. Sadly there's some bonus to having bots around.

[Valmy]

If the captchas would be words about Diablo, definitions about Diablo world, or at least relacionated with it, I think it will be less annoying and almost fun lol.

Honestly, I don't like this things too much... but if they will prevent bots... ofc, lets go with them. Why not? I prefer wait 30 seconds each time I join a game and got a realm without any hacks.

Only if it is possible, obviously.

[ThulRasha]

If it is possible to somehow only confront bots with the captcha and leave regular players alone then I would be in favor.

What a bot does is create or join a bot game and do a quick scripted run trough a particular area. A bot will do this about 20 times per hour. (guesstimate).

So if it is possible for a Blizzard server to count how many games a player joins or creates each hour then you can show capthas only to people who exceed a certain treshhold.
If you asume that a regular player will never create or join more than 5 games each hour then you could start showing captcha pictures if a player (or likely a bot) enter it's 6th game in an hour.

Bots can find a way around this by simply not entering more than 5 games each hour, but is that a problem? The bot won't be playing any more than a regular player does. The problem with current bots for Diablo2 is that they run almost continuesly.

Currently Diablo2 has a system like this, except that you will get a temporary ban instead of having to answer a captcha.
Players who mule items will also be subject to this temp ban, and with the captcha they can simply continue. This may not be a problem in Diablo3, since muling will likely be made less tedious.

[Leord]

The system Blizzard uses on Battle.net isn't too bad. I wouldn't mind that...

[Telzen]

If it is possible to somehow only confront bots with the captcha and leave regular players alone then I would be in favor.

What a bot does is create or join a bot game and do a quick scripted run trough a particular area. A bot will do this about 20 times per hour. (guesstimate).

So if it is possible for a Blizzard server to count how many games a player joins or creates each hour then you can show capthas only to people who exceed a certain treshhold.
If you asume that a regular player will never create or join more than 5 games each hour then you could start showing captcha pictures if a player (or likely a bot) enter it's 6th game in an hour.

Bots can find a way around this by simply not entering more than 5 games each hour, but is that a problem? The bot won't be playing any more than a regular player does. The problem with current bots for Diablo2 is that they run almost continuesly.

Currently Diablo2 has a system like this, except that you will get a temporary ban instead of having to answer a captcha.
Players who mule items will also be subject to this temp ban, and with the captcha they can simply continue. This may not be a problem in Diablo3, since muling will likely be made less tedious.

Then the bots will just be made to clear enough so that they only need 5 games an hour. So they will still run all the time. Remember this time they want to reduce boss runs so playing the game normally will probably be the best way to get items.

[Grug]

Heh. I like to play the online browser game Kingdom of Loathing. They have their own live chatroom, but to get in you have to visit the Ghost of the English Language and pass a writing test. It involves correctly using the different versions of "your" and "there", copying a sentence with perfect spelling and punctuation, and answering what color George Washington's favorite black horse was.

[Zeek]

If it is possible to somehow only confront bots with the captcha and leave regular players alone then I would be in favor.

What a bot does is create or join a bot game and do a quick scripted run trough a particular area. A bot will do this about 20 times per hour. (guesstimate).

So if it is possible for a Blizzard server to count how many games a player joins or creates each hour then you can show capthas only to people who exceed a certain treshhold.
If you asume that a regular player will never create or join more than 5 games each hour then you could start showing captcha pictures if a player (or likely a bot) enter it's 6th game in an hour.

Bots can find a way around this by simply not entering more than 5 games each hour, but is that a problem? The bot won't be playing any more than a regular player does. The problem with current bots for Diablo2 is that they run almost continuesly.

Currently Diablo2 has a system like this, except that you will get a temporary ban instead of having to answer a captcha.
Players who mule items will also be subject to this temp ban, and with the captcha they can simply continue. This may not be a problem in Diablo3, since muling will likely be made less tedious.
That's a really good point. I know that this is the type of system some online poker sites use to prevent potential bots. If their bot detection software thinks that a person is playing like a bot then they'll get a captcha. If they're a human they just answer the captcha and everything is fine. If there a bot that can't answer the captcha they get their account locked.

It would be really nice if Blizzard used this type of system and if the person fails something like 3 captcha's in a row or just doesn't respond to the captcha within 5 minutes or something then they're banned and all their items are deleted. It might need something to prevent item transfer until the captcha is correctly answered as well.

I like it though. I think if they really wanted to they could narrow down the rules system of bring up the captcha to a level where if botters want to stay just under the radar then they can't get much advantage anyway.

[Gamekk]

Sorry but that's horrible. Each time I register to a stupid forum I've always get to re enter those impossible to read symbols like 3-4 times.

And... for GAME creation? Are you crazy? I'd need to do this like 50 times a day!

I can think of at least 50 other ways less pissing me off.

[Ouroboros]

That's a really good point. I know that this is the type of system some online poker sites use to prevent potential bots. If their bot detection software thinks that a person is playing like a bot then they'll get a captcha. If they're a human they just answer the captcha and everything is fine. If there a bot that can't answer the captcha they get their account locked.

I really like that. It would bring down the annoyance level to bearable limits.

Keep in mind, its all for a good cause .. I think people have a knee-jerk reaction to captchas because of their negative experiences with them in the past.

What would you be willing to compromise for a bot-free or at least a bot-reduced realm ?

Secondly, I think if Bots could be detected by a monitoring system which handles botting cases as they happen, it would be in place.

I think the lack of a constant monitoring system is what causes Blizz to go for these periodical mega-bans.

but thats speculation ..

Either way, this thread has made it abundantly clear that either you love this idea or you hate it. Very few have been willing or proposed to find a middle path.

Maybe different captchas with Diablo related information could be used to separate bots from humans

Here an idea:

An travelling NPC is present in every act (or different NPC with same function). He will give you a unique easy puzzle every time you log on. The answer to that puzzle is what you will have to input to get access to make the next game.

Example Puzzle:

Mix yellow and blue .. wat do you get?
2+2-3= ?
opposite of black?

There could be thousands of puzzles liek this. Or the NPC could show you a picture of an item. You would have to input the title and ur set. ( eg: picture of halberd = HALBERD entered on screen)

just an idea .. dont know how it would be implemented.

Annoying ? maybe so .. would it reduce bots? Maybe so .. IF it does .. is it worth it ? Is it a compromise you would be willing to live with for a better gaming experience?

Also, try the second captcha link i put up (not the tracing one), I dont think enough people looked at it. I felt it was the best one of the three. :yes:

edit: why did my sentences become separated ?? weird :D

[Ouroboros]

Sorry but that's horrible. Each time I register to a stupid forum I've always get to re enter those impossible to read symbols like 3-4 times.

And... for GAME creation? Are you crazy? I'd need to do this like 50 times a day!

I can think of at least 50 other ways less pissing me off.

The conversation progressed on from the original post. There were some alternatives suggested, which were discussed. Read through the replies, interesting stuff.

[Bomber]

This would be a great idea to stop bots...... I love it and would not mind typing these in when ever. Anything to help reduce bots.

[reaperguy]

God, I thought I was the only one that fails them half the time.

I don't think it would be so annoying if they had things like tracing around concept art or coloring in the right colors in a scene or whatever...I think they could minimize the annoyingness

[Akse]

The game will be a lot different than D2 LOD ofc. And how different it should be.. imo it should be a lot harder, challenging, include more tactic when fighting monsters, complex areas, no easy monsters that almost always drop magic items, no boss runs.

Those things will make botting really hard and unprofitable. There is no 1 boss you can just run over and over again.. so why do you use bot. Areas are difficult and challenging so a bot using 1-2 skills like in D2 will die a lot. As we saw in the very first gameplay demo, there are monsters that have special abilities that the player have to notice and react. Like those berserkers they start to swing the weapon and hit really hard unless you do something to stop them, a human can do this easily, bot probably can't.

[Bladewind]

Simple leveling areas won't damaged a bot with uber equipment.

[ThulRasha]

Then the bots will just be made to clear enough so that they only need 5 games an hour. So they will still run all the time. Remember this time they want to reduce boss runs so playing the game normally will probably be the best way to get items.

It's quite hard to make a bot do something more complex than run a scripted run trough 1 area.

Anyhow, if Blizzard can get a system together where a bot doesn't have a huge advantage over normal players, then I'm happy.

[In the name of Zod]

Don't know if this has already been covered but wouldn't implementing this sort of thing require a considerable about of development. This is development time that could go into other things. Can't say the idea didn't go through my head some time back when I toyed with playing online but I just can't see Blizz being bothered. Consider that there are more profitable endeavours to spend your time and money on.

Being a single player I would prefer to see another patch, more runewords and the like. If they couldn't be bothered doing that then why bother with captcha. Also consider that if captcha was implemented it too will just add to the number of issues requiring maintenance of the grand old aging game. Conclusion: Infeasible.

[ThulRasha]

Don't know if this has already been covered but wouldn't implementing this sort of thing require a considerable about of development.

Not really. Depends on how far they would go with it. Like making it fit in a Diablo game, thinking up puzzles that would have something to do with the game will take more time to develop than showing a simple distorted text.

Keep in mind that they already have a system in place (but without showing captchas) to refuse a player a connection when he creates to many games in a specific amount of time. At least, that system is in place for Diablo2.

They would have to add that a player will be shown a server generated captcha and the server would need to receive the correct answer for that capthca. Wich is a trivial thing to implement compared to adding a new character for example.

The reason why Blizzard won't make this, will most likely be because they find it to much of a nuisance. Not because it would take to much time.

[Aaiieeee]

The problem with all this is you penalize the majority (messing around with pictures and words) for the sake of a minority. Those who get paid money by Blizzard should be thinking up solutions (if they havnt already)

[ThulRasha]

The problem with all this is you penalize the majority (messing around with pictures and words) for the sake of a minority. Those who get paid money by Blizzard should be thinking up solutions (if they havnt already)

It's already happening in D2.
The majority (read: the not bots) are penalized there. When you create to many games you will get a temp ban.

Would you rather fill in a captcha or wait 5 minutes for your temp ban to lift?

[SlechtWeerBeer]

It's already happening in D2.
The majority (read: the not bots) are penalized there. When you create to many games you will get a temp ban.

Would you rather fill in a captcha or wait 5 minutes for your temp ban to lift?

To me, 5 minute bans are less time wasted than captchas.

[Bladewind]

A captcha takes less than 30 seconds for me to clear.

[ThulRasha]

A captcha takes less than 30 seconds for me to clear.

Well, then you would only lose 30 seconds, and BadWeatherAle would lose 5 minutes :crazyeyes:

[SlechtWeerBeer]

Well, then you would only lose 30 seconds, and BadWeatherAle would lose 5 minutes :crazyeyes:

Except I don't get bans, thus it would take no time from me. That was my original point.

Also, it's bear ;) Beer specific for bad weather is lame (although... I live on Holland, a nice summer breeze is rare >>" )

[ThulRasha]

Except I don't get bans, thus it would take no time from me. That was my original point.


Yes you would, please read my post.
The current system in place for Diablo2 will give you temp bans if you behave like a bot.

What I propose is to remove those temp bans and replace them with a captcha system.
So you, who don't behave like a bot (else you would also have noticed those temp bans in diablo2 by now), will never even see this captcha.

[Zeek]

Except I don't get bans, thus it would take no time from me. That was my original point.
What ThulRasha just said. Bnet already has some trigger that you're acting like a bot. The result is a temp ban. We're saying when those triggers go off why not test the player to see if he's a bot? If he doesn't respond to the captcha or gets a number of them wrong then I'd full on ban them. If they get the captcha right then let them go on playing as normal until they trigger another bot rule.

The only drawback I see is playing while drunk. That would be a bit harsh to lose your account cause you couldn't type or concentrate on a captcha. Maybe it shouldn't be so harsh...eh that can be adjusted. Still I think the idea has merit.

[Phranx]

Or they could just use the warden program from WoW to keep you honest. No involvement needed by the customer and the base code is already written and tested.

[veteran player]

i dont have a problem with bots like baal bot.

i do have a problem with those "spam you so much trying to peddle theyre crap that i dont want that you cant see youre screen" every 10 sec ones.

ridiculous. blizz should have got rid of those adv bots a long time ago.

does blizz get compensated for letting them peddle theyre loot crap items on theyre game?. if yes maybe thats why they stayed bugging everyone when clearly everyone hates them.

if no, then they should be gone. id def opt for that image thing or whatever if it just keeps them stupid things off my screen where i can see to play.

my N key is almost worn off from clearing theyre spam off and the chat spam.

[Kijya]

How about a set of 3 buttons, two fake and one real "create new game" button. The real create game button is randomly chosen from those three, all all for them will get captha text captions (Real one reading "New Game" other ones slightly random?) so that a bot program can't be sure which is the right one. A human should be able to decide which is the right one to click on in 1-2 seconds.

Wrong guesses would log you off from b.net and a proper captha test could be used as you log into your account.

[noticks]

:thumbup:Oo I like it!

[ThulRasha]

The only drawback I see is playing while drunk. That would be a bit harsh to lose your account cause you couldn't type or concentrate on a captcha. Maybe it shouldn't be so harsh...eh that can be adjusted. Still I think the idea has merit.

Yes, the penalty should not be that harsh.

Adding a system like a captcha to test a player can of course be a way to be more harsh than a 5 min temp ban, but I still think it should never result in a perm ban.

The first goal afterall is to keep the economy stable. If people still use bots, but those bots don't have a huge advantage over a normal player, then it's a big step forward already.

Combining this with a warden like program and who knows what Blizzard already thought up for bnet2.0, I doubt we will see as many bots as in Diablo2.

[SlechtWeerBeer]

Yes you would, please read my post.
The current system in place for Diablo2 will give you temp bans if you behave like a bot.

What I propose is to remove those temp bans and replace them with a captcha system.
So you, who don't behave like a bot (else you would also have noticed those temp bans in diablo2 by now), will never even see this captcha.

I see now. Didn't fully understand it at first, I guess :)
I could see that working.

[Zeek]

Or they could just use the warden program from WoW to keep you honest. No involvement needed by the customer and the base code is already written and tested.
I don't play WoW but I thought they had gold farming bots. At least I could have sworn I read that somewhere.

[5zigen]

Stop playing to type those damn words? No way, breaks all the imersion.

I believe there are other ways to prevent botting and i'm more concerned about the anti dupe and anti hacks them botting.

PS: that captcha http://www.toallwhoseekit.net/cgi-bin/sq-pix FAILS HARD!! you have to draw a perfect triangle and to do that you cant draw too fast. Its a big problem in the middle of a game (even if the captcha pauses the game while you draw).

This argument against CAPTCHA has come up frequently, but given standing ways of creating games, it doesnt seem like it is that imposing.

You are already typing "Baalrun xx01" or something equally immersion breaking the majority of the time you're playing first off. If you are concerned about the new players, they still have to type something like "lvl 1-100, lets!" or something else equally immersion breaking.

There could be very interesting ways to have a variation on a theme of CAPTCHA that would not be immersion breaking in the least.

For example, it could take a passage from some game lore, and require you to read and finish a sentence. It could put this forward as "finishing a passage in a book" to create an instance, which would be less immersion breaking than most current systems. Finishing a sentence is something a native speaker of any language can usually do fairly easily, but would be increasingly hard for a bot to identify. (I know there are problems with this, like the fact that there would be an enumerated amount of passages to use so theoretically someone could make a DB of all the sentences and answer, this is just an example of how something that is user verifying could be done to curb botting.)

Additionally, it could ask you to draw some symbol or something in a certain order, which could comport with some of the other game lore to create a game.

In reality though there are a lot of things they could do to curb botting. A recently added one is to sue the crap out of people who distribute bots under the DMCA and vicarious infringement theories ala Grockster.