Question Re: Hybrid Poison/Summon

[Kaleban]

First off, I've read almost all the guides in the stickies, and they make me want to start an account of nothing but necros lol.

That being said, I have a couple of questions. I had a 85 Necro in HC that perished under mysterious circumstances, and am rebuilding him. His build was probably your standard Summoner, maxed RS and SM, along with maxed CE. I had 1 pt in all prereqs, FG, all curses, and I was starting to max GM due to the novelty of the Insight Golem.

Now on the rebuild I'm thinking it may be advantageous to have a spammable attack spell to help out my minions, not that they really need it, but just to make it more fun.

In attempting to acquire more +skill gear, I realize I can probably leave CE at 1, since the radius should be adequate. So the questions are as follows:

1. Do the Golem and Skeleton Masteries work with +skill items on some sort of double synergy? As in, other skills need "hard" points to gain synergy bonuses, but I'm assuming these two work like a sorc's masteries and work with +skill items.

2. If I put 1 into all Summon skills minus the point in FG, and then max Raise Skeleton, what amount of +skills would I need to make them viable in Hell Difficulty? As in, survivable enough with a Might Merc?

3. For this type of build, is a Might Merc optimal? I'm not sure how the Might aura interacts with SM's damage increases, and if it does whether its hard or soft points, etc. Perhaps with 10 SM, and the damage output from Poison Nova, a Prayer Merc with Insight would be a better option?

4. Is Poison Nova, when combined with LR, effective in Hell with only one synergy maxed? The point being to give some flexibility in point allocation, such as adding 10 to PDagger and 10 to SM, giving a better boost of survivability to your skellies while having a somewhat weaker PNova. Or is it decent even with just Poison Explosion?

5. Will a hybrid Poison/Summoner with a skill layout like this:

20RS
10SM
20PE
20PNova
10PDagger
1 into all prereqs and curses, including Revive

Be MORE effective than a standard Summoner that has maxed RS/SM/CE/GM? And by effective I mean killing speed and survivability.

I suppose the reason for my questions beyond just wanting to know is that I enjoyed my previous Necro quite a bit, but it tended to get a bit monotonous just Amping and then waiting to CE everything on screen. It would be nice to have a secondary attack spell on my Necro, but as my experience with Hell difficulty is somewhat limited as well as my time and resources, I'm wondering if anyone has tried this build or one like it in Hell under various circumstances with any amount of success? :coffee:

Thanks for any answers in advance! :jig:

[Mad Mantis]

1. Do the Golem and Skeleton Masteries work with +skill items on some sort of double synergy?

The masteries aren't synergies. They function normally with +skills.


2. If I put 1 into all Summon skills minus the point in FG, and then max Raise Skeleton, what amount of +skills would I need to make them viable in Hell Difficulty?

You'll need to get Skeleton Mastery to at least level 10 to have any kind of viable meat shields. They are workable at this level. Getting it to 30 is needed if you want them to be sturdy and strong.


3. For this type of build, is a Might Merc optimal?

The skellies are more meat shields in this type of build, so a Might Merc becomes a matter of gear. If you can get the Skellies strong enough then he becomes optimal.

You could go with something like a HF Merc if you feel the need for more CC since your Merc options are more open.


4. Is Poison Nova, when combined with LR, effective in Hell with only one synergy maxed?

Define effective. It is a bit slow going since you'll be lacking a lot of damage. Workable, yes. Very fast, not so much.


Be MORE effective than a standard Summoner that has maxed RS/SM/CE/GM?

If you can get the gear it will be a lot speedier. Summoner remains the safest if you invest in some DV.

[Kaleban]

The masteries aren't synergies. They function normally with +skills.

Good, to know, I kinda figured but wanted to double check


You'll need to get Skeleton Mastery to at least level 10 to have any kind of viable meat shields. They are workable at this level. Getting it to 30 is needed if you want them to be sturdy and strong.

Hmm... So it COULD be possible to bring SM up to 10 and let +skills take over then, assuming one had enough. Right now, with my planned end game gear, I'm looking at around +10 to +15, (not too rich, depends on a couple of potential trades lol), so I'd be close.


The skellies are more meat shields in this type of build, so a Might Merc becomes a matter of gear. If you can get the Skellies strong enough then he becomes optimal.

I read over the Fishy guide, quite informative, and even there he states that merc, golem, skellies and revives are simply meat shields to start a CE chain. Granted, with focusing in the Summon tree, they're VERY effective on their own especially when paired with a CB Might merc.


You could go with something like a HF Merc if you feel the need for more CC since your Merc options are more open.

Eh, I'm more inclined to steer clear of HF in any summoning build, and thinking Might as usual for Skellie and Revive damage, or Prayer/Insight to keep them up longer to let PN and CE do their work.


Define effective. It is a bit slow going since you'll be lacking a lot of damage. Workable, yes. Very fast, not so much.

Effective for me is this: Killing speed, and survivability. I play HC, so survivability is key, but I'd like to play something that kills faster than a standard Summoner while retaining the safety net of lots of minions.


If you can get the gear it will be a lot speedier. Summoner remains the safest if you invest in some DV.

To make a hybrid like this more effective than a standard summoner, I'd have to load up on +skills and poison facets right? It seems to me that making a build like this might be out of my price range by quite a bit, the more I think about it. About the most expensive runeword I can do atm is Treachery lol, I don't have access to things like Bramble or CtA.

I'm thinking I'll just level as a standard Skellie, skimp on SM while still retaining good kill speed, and decide later if I want to splash into Poison. Thanks for the help btw!

[Kaleban]

Hmm, well after going over it, I just realized something else. With decent +skills, a Summon Necro can make it with this distribution:

Summon:
20 RS
20 SM
1 in everything else except FG (I prefer Clay for recast or Iron for versatility)

P&B:
1 Teeth
1 CE

Curses:
1 in all

Which comes out to 59 skillpoints. Which means I can further max out two more skills reliably, but after that spare points would be difficult to come by. So the main question based on my previous play experience is if CE with a 1 pt investment would be effective with +skills? Since the only thing that increases is range, it seems to not have as much returns as another damage spell, especially given that monsters tend to bunch up around the minions. And with +10 skills, you get a 6 yard radius on CE, which seems quite sufficient.

Add in a few P&B charms, or items like Death's Fathom, and with a 1/20/20 spread on poison skills you approach around 3k PN damage over 2 secs. To me, that seems like a pretty good deal, but again, my experience in Hell diff is limited, and I've never played a Necro with poison before.

[Mad Mantis]

To make a hybrid like this more effective than a standard summoner, I'd have to load up on +skills and poison facets right?

-%Enemy Poison Resistance first, +% Poison Damage second and after that +skills. You need all the help you can get to make the poison work. It needs some pretty good gear. D-web and Three Piece Trang.

[Tarantella]

.....I'm thinking I'll just level as a standard Skellie, skimp on SM while still retaining good kill speed, and decide later if I want to splash into Poison. Thanks for the help btw!


My current HC notwink necromancer with 60 points in the poison tree struggled gamefully to the outer cloister in Hell with just a merc and a few unpredictable revives off wand in tow. Not recommended! Adding 1 point in CG,GM and SR made a difference.Adding 1 -15 to SM and RS makes him capable of pit/countess running at 82 and the 1 point in BA and BW is a lifesaver there.

If I had to do it again it would be in reverse order as regards skill points for easier levelling (Diablo solo with poison dagger and a dead merc has a risky charm in HC) and having made a bone summoner hybrid (20/20 in SM/RS)earlier in the ladder of the two I prefer the latter with the spammable damage on mouse left click.

Tweaking would make it much easier of course (full trangs is nice)but I've got to the RoF waypoint so far though Maggot lair level two was a nightmare with unbreakable physical/poison immune, cursing, teleporting uniques seemingly on every corner. :whistling: