Nova Necro Question

[Aruman]

On my necro I use enigma which is great for the Teleport, but would it be better to roll with bramble for the added dmg? What do some of you other novamancers use for your armor?

[billking]

In PvP the only reason for a caster not to use Enigma is that it's banned under the rules you play under.

In PvM, I'd say it depends on how you decide to get your experience/items. If you like killing Mephisto over and over again, then teleporting is indispensable. If you like running the Worldstone Keep, the monsters are probably more important than Baal himself, plus they have enough life to make the extra damage relevant, so Bramble seems better.

[stillman]

Watch out for the problem where if you simply combine all the increases psn damage items, there is a hidden loss. That is, this mod does not stack to what you would think. So if you were to wear Bramble, Trang's gloves, and death's web, the total psn damage bonus would not simply add up logically. It would be less.

I'm not an expert here, so it might be best to look it up in a psn nova build guide for the specifics. I believe psn java zons suffer the same penalty. Actually, it was a psn java zon build where I learned this so you might want to look there for psn damage info in general.

[sike]

Watch out for the problem where if you simply combine all the increases psn damage items, there is a hidden loss. That is, this mod does not stack to what you would think. So if you were to wear Bramble, Trang's gloves, and death's web, the total psn damage bonus would not simply add up logically. It would be less.

- I suppose you was thinking here on the melee transfered psn dmg where that rule comes from. So that is correct for Poison Dagger skill where psn is added directly to the weapon and if you have some other psn source those two will combine with the known formula* I'm not sure about the Toxic Zon but additional sources of psn dmg i belive wouldn't have any effect on the clouds, however i'm not familiar with the impact mechanics.
- In case of Poison Nova poison; aded psn sources doesn't have any effect at all as this spell works for itself (Necro produces toxic gases from the surrounding air), and it is not dependant of casters 'hand' to be transefered to oponent and make an effect..

* - If you are interested how the Poison Dagger/Venom work in combination with other poison sources i have made an mini guide some time ago..


Damage= Damage listed on the item
Duration= It refers to duration listed on item in seconds.
DPS= Damage Per Second
FR=Frame Rate
DPF=Damage Per Frame
DF= Duration In Frames
PDS=Poison Dagger Skill
PDOS= Poison Damage Over Seconds

-Duration and damage from all sources should be taken average.
-To determine duration in frames just multiply durations in seconds by 25. e.g. 1sec=25f
-To calculate poison duration from all items just add them up and divide by the number of items. Then add skill duration separately.
-To finde out damege per frame divide damage/duration in frames

Example:
step#1:Figuring DF-frame duration

Charm1: 6 poison dmg over 2 seconds = 2x25 = 50 DF
Charm2: 451 poison dmg over 12 sec = 12x25 = 300 DF
Tal rune: 75 poison dmg over 5 seconds = 5x25 = 125 DF
total: (50+300+125=475) /3 = 158DF

Skill duration is added NOW!

PDS: 5414 PDOS 10 = 10x25 = 250 DF <---> Dagger used is slvl 21, fully synergyzed

sub total: 158+250= 408DF / 25 =16.32Sec


step#2:Figuring DPF-damge per frame

Charm1: 6/50 = 0.12 DPF
Charm2: 451/300 = 1.5 DPF
Tal run: 75/125 = 0.6 DPF
Skill: 5414/250 = 21.656 DPF <--min---max--> 5800/250 = 23.2 DPF

sub total: 0.12+1.5+0.6+21.656 = 23.876 DPF <---> 25.42 DPF


step#3:Figuring out what dmg we deal??

We deal: 23.876 Damage Per Frame over 408 Frames

Grand total: 23.876x408 = 9741.408 <---> 10371.36

We deal: 9741.408 damage over 16.32 seconds or 596.9 damge per second minimum
And we deal: 10371.36 damage over 16.32 seconds or 635.5 per second maximum
Also, we have attack rating boosted by 430 percent
And, our attack costs 8 mana


Note:
Multiple sources of poison damage on a single item should be treated separately, regardless of the listed damage on the item. As an example if you place 2 Perfect Emeralds in a dagger the listed damage would be 202 poison damage over 6 seconds; however, when figuring your damage they should be considered as such 100 poison damage over 6 seconds AND 100 poison damage over 6 seconds. Needless to say this complicates things when using magic and rares that have both the poison damage prefix and suffix. In such cases you can never know for sure what the stats are for both those poison sources.

Tips and tricks:

If we remove charm1 and Tal run from our above example:

Charm2: 12x25 = 300
skill: 10x25 = 250
total: 300 + 250 = 550 DF

Charm2: 451/300 = 1.5
Skill: 5414/250 = 21.656
total: 23.156 DPF

Grand total of totals: 23.156 x 550 = 12735.8 DMG over 22 seconds

Removing Charm1 and Tal run from the equation we have now increased our minmal dmg, well over our maximal dmg with them summed.
This happened cose duration greatly increased and frame dmg has slighely dropped, so new dmg per sec is 578.863 <--> I dont se a difference, you?




- Decide between Enigma and Bramble with the help of billking's post^^.

[Damric]

here is an old discussion including how to get a 59k nova.

http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=697480&highlight=trang

[onderduiker]

I'm not sure about the Toxic Zon but additional sources of psn dmg i belive wouldn't have any effect on the clouds, however i'm not familiar with the impact mechanics.
Poison damage rate and length from items and Venom only combine with those of Poison Dagger and the javelins of Poison and Plague Javelins (but not the clouds). If Venom is cast, then Venom's poison length is simply added to the skill's length, regardless of any items.

-To calculate poison duration from all items just add them up and divide by the number of items. Then add skill duration separately.
Skill and item lengths are summed before being divided by the number of items.

I modified level 1 Poison Dagger to apply 100 poison damage over 4 seconds and equipped three Small Charms applying 100 poison damage over 4 seconds each, resulting in a combined rate of 100 poison damage per second. If the item lengths were averaged before being added to PD's length, the combined length would be 200 ([4 * 25 * 3 /3] + 100) frames or 8 (200/25) seconds, resulting in 800 (100 * 8) poison damage over 8 seconds.

I modified a monster to make it Immune to Physical with Fire and Poison Resist 0%, and gave it no damage regeneration and 801 hit points. If length were calculated as you stated, it would take only 1 fire damage to kill it. However, it took 269 fire damage to do so. This is consistent with 100 poison damage per second being applied for 133 ([(100 + (4 * 25 * 3))/3]) frames or 5.32 (133/25) seconds, resulting in 532 (100 * 5.32) poison damage over 5.32 seconds (801 - 532 = 269).

Multiple sources of poison damage on a single item should be treated separately, regardless of the listed damage on the item. As an example if you place 2 Perfect Emeralds in a dagger the listed damage would be 202 poison damage over 6 seconds; however, when figuring your damage they should be considered as such 100 poison damage over 6 seconds AND 100 poison damage over 6 seconds. Needless to say this complicates things when using magic and rares that have both the poison damage prefix and suffix. In such cases you can never know for sure what the stats are for both those poison sources.If a single item has both a poison damage prefix and suffix, it's treated as a single source: the rates and lengths of both affixes are simply added together.

[sike]

Poison damage rate and length from items and Venom only combine with those of Poison Dagger and the javelins of Poison and Plague Javelins (but not the clouds). If Venom is cast, then Venom's poison length is simply added to the skill's length, regardless of any items.

- If that would be true like you've sad than weapons beside javelins would treat poison like it does not exist, i.e. wouldn't have any use of it. The same goes for Venom skill itself, like for Druid's Rabies first target..

Skill and item lengths are summed before being divided by the number of items.

- If, .i.f. something new wasn't discovered very recently you are controverting the beauty of poison state, where the fact is (I'm not imagining nothing new) that Poison Dagger duration is added after the 'combined duration of other poison sources'.. Venom duration is also added after...

resulting in a combined rate of 100 poison damage per second[/U])?*. (If the item lengths were averaged before being added to PD's length)?**, the combined length would be 200 ([4 * 25 * 3 /3] + 100) frames or 8 (200/25) seconds, resulting in 800 (100 * 8) poison damage over 8 seconds.

* - How do you mean yet combined rate? Has poison started working like a lightning shock in pulses, so would i get 3x100 psn dmg in 1 sec??
** - Here you have 3x(100 over 4). You would have average in case you have 3x(100 over 4-6) -> ''average'' would be 5.

- This all is one big ? -> questionmark

- But to point you if you didn't noticed, you are contradictor with yourself where you state: ''Skill and item lengths are summed before being divided by the number of items.'' And now i don't see the way how did you make that calculation beyond the way i stated: ''To calculate poison duration from all items just add them up and divide by the number of items. Then add skill duration separately.''

) frames or 5.32 (133/25) seconds, resulting in 532 (100 * 5.32) poison damage over 5.32 seconds (801 - 532 = 269).

- Enaf.



single[/I] item has both a poison damage prefix and suffix, it's treated as a single source: the rates and lengths of both affixes are simply added together.

- Enaf, enaf!!




[QUOTE=Originally Posted by sike
I'm not sure about the Toxic Zon but additional sources of psn dmg i belive wouldn't have any effect on the clouds, however i'm not familiar with the impact mechanics.[/QUOTE]

- Like i was never interested to play with one Toxic Lady I've never checked that sort of stuf so here I stated that I'm not 99% sure and so have I sad: I'm not sure and i would'n wan't to guess. Like you can see when we take dagger in hand I'm very well sure in what I'm saying. Are you also 99% sure in what you are saying or is it just guessing??

[onderduiker]

Apologies to Aruman (the thread starter) and everyone else for the long off-topic response that follows...

- If that would be true like you've sad than weapons beside javelins would treat poison like it does not exist, i.e. wouldn't have any use of it. The same goes for Venom skill itself, like for Druid's Rabies first target..
I meant that the only poison skills whose own poison damage rates and lengths were increased by those of items and Venom are Poison Dagger and the javelins of Poison and Plague Javelins: Rabies, Poison Creeper, Poison Explosion, Poison Nova and the clouds of Poison and Plague Javelins are unaffected. Of course the rates and length(s) of items and Venom are delivered by other skills that apply weapon damage (with a few exceptions, like Smite and Lightning Bolt).

Rabies is always a separate source of damage, even for the first target: in this case, the rate applied by items and Venom is compared against that of Rabies, and whichever is greater is applied for its length. However, Rabies periodically reapplies its rate, so if the length(s) of items and Venom expire before that of Rabies, Rabies' rate will be applied for its remaining length.


- If, .i.f. something new wasn't discovered very recently you are controverting the beauty of poison state, where the fact is (I'm not imagining nothing new) that Poison Dagger duration is added after the 'combined duration of other poison sources'.. Venom duration is also added after...
This is not a recent discovery, and I've tested to confirm it by editing .txt files extracted from the games .mpq archive files in single-player. If you're sceptical, test it yourself by combining high level PD with several items with short lengths. For example, level 21 PD lasts for 10 seconds: if it works as you stated, equipping 3 Small, Large or Grand Charms with the Septic prefix or Blight suffix (3 seconds each) will result in 13 (10 + ((3 * 3)/3)) seconds, whereas if it works as I stated (and demonstrated) it'll result in 6.32 ((10 + (3 * 3))/3) seconds. The difference will be even more pronounced if you can equip more charms or use higher level PD, but be sure not to equip any -% to Enemy Poison Resistance, since this also increases length by the displayed percentage against monsters (the only possible exceptions are the Ancients).

When Venom is cast, its rate combines with that from items, but that rate is only applied for Venom's length of 0.4 second (10 frames). When applied with PD or the javelins of Poison or Plague Javelin, length is simply the sum of the lengths of Venom and the skill e.g. level 21 PD combined with Venom would result in 10.4 (10 + 0.4) seconds without any -% EPR (-25% EPR would result in 13 (10.4 * (100 - (0 - 25))/100) seconds).


* - How do you mean yet combined rate? Has poison started working like a lightning shock in pulses, so would i get 3x100 psn dmg in 1 sec??
** - Here you have 3x(100 over 4). You would have average in case you have 3x(100 over 4-6) -> ''average'' would be 5.

- This all is one big ? -> questionmark
Poison damage is defined by two things: its damage rate (damage applied per unit time) and the length of time over which that rate is applied. The game displays the total poison damage done over a length of time (100 Poison Damage Over 4 Seconds) but it's calculated by applying a rate of 25 poison damage per second for 4 seconds, resulting in 100 (25 * 4) Poison Damage Over 4 Seconds. With multiple items, rates are added together. Three charms applying 25/s results in a combined rate of 75/s (25 + 25 + 25), which would then be added to the rates of PD and Venom when those skills were used: modified PD applied 100 Poison Damage over 4 Seconds, a rate of 25/s (100/4) that results in a combined rate of 100/s (75 + 25) for an as yet unspecified length.

With multiple items (and only items), lengths are averaged (i.e. added together and then divided by the number of items), so the average of three charms, each with 4 seconds, would be 4 ((4 + 4 + 4)/3) seconds. Three items applying a combined rate of 75/s for 4 seconds results in 300 (75 * 4) poison damage over 4 seconds.

However, the game actually calculates rates and lengths using more precise units of measurement: rate is measured in bits (1 bit = 1/256 hit point) and length in frames (1 frame = 1/25 second). The bit rate is applied every frame for the length of the poison. So 4 seconds multiplied by 25 equals 100 frames; 3 charms with lengths of 100 frames equals 300 (100 * 3) frames, resulting in an average of 100 (300/3) frames; modified PD had a length of 4 seconds or 100 frames, resulting in a combined length of 200 (100 + 100) frames... if poison length were calculated as you stated.


- But to point you if you didn't noticed, you are contradictor with yourself where you state: ''Skill and item lengths are summed before being divided by the number of items.'' And now i don't see the way how did you make that calculation beyond the way i stated: ''To calculate poison duration from all items just add them up and divide by the number of items. Then add skill duration separately.''
I was stating the result that would be expected if poison length were calculated as you stated. However, the test I described and carried out clearly indicated that poison length is not calculated as you stated (532 poison damage over 5.32 seconds was applied, not 800 poison damage over 8 seconds), which should become clearer if you carry out the simpler test I described earlier in this post (the difference between 6.32 and 13 seconds should be obvious unless you test in laggy conditions).


- Like i was never interested to play with one Toxic Lady I've never checked that sort of stuf so here I stated that I'm not 99% sure and so have I sad: I'm not sure and i would'n wan't to guess. Like you can see when we take dagger in hand I'm very well sure in what I'm saying. Are you also 99% sure in what you are saying or is it just guessing??
Poison rates and length(s) from items and Venom are applied in the same way to PD as they are to the javelins of Poison and Plague Javelins. I am an infrequent visitor and poster here, but I post regularly on the Amazon Basin and over the past year or so I have done extensive research and testing to confirm exactly how poison damage works. I am not guessing.

I understand that this site frowns upon posting links to other fan sites, so if need be I can send you a PM containing links to the relevant Amazon Basin posts, topics and Wiki page.

[Mad Mantis]

onderduiker, could you consider writing a short poison faq?

[sike]

onderduiker, could you consider writing a short poison faq?

- Yeah! We all know how the poison was working before and so now we would be glad if you could share with us that new discoveries and tests so we can all, together with you, be up to date..

- And, WoW! I'm quite impressed with your in depth knowledge considering game mechanisms.. It must have been quite an painfull, not only to go throught all that stuff but also throwing it for publick eyes after keeping it private for.. how long have you knew all that??

- And i can see now it won't be close to easy but it all seems like it will come to that i will need to clarify myself as an looser in these debate; and like it can be noticed from the lengths of our posts, all goes in your favoure; so if it comes to that i will do so like an man.

- Have i forgot something? Hope i didn't.. but yes, would you then be so nice an share with us a bit more details as i'm very interested to hear the news :wave:

[onderduiker]

onderduiker, could you consider writing a short poison faq?
Yes, although where I post it will depend on what you have in mind (something specific to Necromancers, or something more general?). I've sent you a PM.


Sike, I've also sent you a PM rather than continuing to go off-topic.

[Aruman]

Well i went with bramble over enigma cause the dmg boost is amazing. One last thing i need to ask, should i do summons or bone spear/spirit as a method of killing immunes? Summons tend to die/piss me off most of the time cause they wander around and what not but i like the fact that they take some of the heat off of me. With spear i can handle immune stuff though and get back to useing nova. What route do u guys go with for immunes, spear or summons?

[The Lich King]

Summons definitely, but that's the price you pay when going with bramble.

[Aruman]

Well isnt the huge boost in dmg to your main skill ( nova ) better then controlling the summons for the few times that i can break the immunities?

[sike]

Yes, although where I post it will depend on what you have in mind (something specific to Necromancers, or something more general?). I've sent you a PM.


Sike, I've also sent you a PM rather than continuing to go off-topic.

- Ela! :cloud9:

- I've seen the PM but havn't even think about reading that s**t
- If i wasn't totally clear i'll tell you simple words: YOU ARE WRONG, i don't care about it but you are undesputably WRONG! clear.
- If you are about to shut-up fine, you don't have to admit as that depends of what person you are.. but if you continue to flame here will be no end!

- Like I can see, you are taking this very hard. But, how did you think when you decided to replay-correct other peron' post?? You did have to be 200% sure in what you are saying, and you did, unfortunatelly it came to that you have been mistaken, and, and what then.. you will continue to go 'proving' you are right when everybody can clearly see you are classical spammer. So at least have that much honour and respect; FACE IT and if nothing then take a chance and shut-up; don't go dissaproving something when it is going into imbecilism that way, if you are blinde.
- That, my friend, would be basic civilized behaviour, not to talk about good manners!
- Like you are taking this thing hard to your hearth, it is not pleasant to me either. It is, indeed, clearly stating that I'm not right and have made a big spamm talking stupidities; what i canno't cofirm via letting you speak openly and i will NOT do so! clear.

- The fact you are a pu**y is not bothering me as long as you keep that private, becouse otherwise I'm directly affected and i don't want that!


- Clear enaf? silence. Unclear? showtime! :yes:




EDIT: yea, sry for the show^^ 'threadboss' :-) i forgot.

- Summons do look better at the end as you have great tanks and companyons, and they WILL kill slowly but nothing slower than Spear or Spirit would in the case. Considering what is available, in most cases I go 20SM and everything else 1pt; that gives them nice dmg boost and they are practically unkillable, if you get right summons they can kill even bosses for you -> Urdars in act4 as you probably know are great..

[Mad Mantis]

Sike, take this discussion to PM's and stop insulting people.