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AngelLove

10-01-2009, 15:05

Hi, my name is AngelLove. Long time reader, first time poster.

I have been thinking about this, and doing a lot of research.
But so far I have only found one guy that consider a summon spammer
to be one of the top 5 dulers.

There are quite a few PVP summoner guide. But almost all of them suggest
only 1 point in revive. This strike me as odd (or holding back), for revive
is the number one pvp skill for a summoner. Skeles simply don't cut it PVP.
Especially against holy freeze slow, or area effect magic (or both together
, ie. the hurricane).

This is what I come up with. The core of the PVP summoner should be
20 Mastery
20 revive
Rest is up to personal preferance. I would opt for:
20 Skele warrior
20 Skele mage
20 Amp (for speed, less aiming = more speed)
1 in CE for PVM
1 in decrep for act bosses

there will be +9 skill from grand charm, +1 from anni, +3 from torch,
+1 from belt, +1 from ring, +3 from circlet, +3 from necro head, +3 from ammy
+2 from negma. So without going all out, you have 26 plus skills.

That gives you 46 revives at 460% enhanced damage.
Say that you get 46 returned archers at 40 ave. damage.
With +460% from mastery, +90% from beast, +330% from pride,
+50% from HOW(wisp projector) +230% from might,
you get +1160% enhanced damage.
(if mastery add to BASE damage, this amount will more than double.
How does this work exactly? does anyone know?
I will just try to be conservative here and keep it as low as possible.)

Now one single archer will do 500 ave. damage.
and 46 of them will give you a wave of 23000 damage, or 20K+
This amount will double with amp to give you 40K+
or ONE HIT KILL as some might call it.
(the PVP penalty for summons is 1/2, not 1/6)

(I have heard that 15 buged claw vipers will give you 80K+, but it is too evil
even for me. and don't work against some ppl anyway.)

If you sommon one Big guy, the monsters won't fan out.
(less walky, more shooty)
and teleporting at 9 frame with your 45+ chanmpian archers,
you will just be mowing down other players like grass.

If this DOES work, I wish to discourage it. As you will gain nothing by
distrubing the BALANCE.

But will it work? That is what I would like to know.
And what I need your help with.
(I only know how to build characters the slow way, and have never owned an enigma).

PS. feel free to copy and past this anywhere you like, just mention my name ^_^

Kalkanor

10-01-2009, 15:46

the damage sounds good but the 1 problum i would like to point out is when you tele with enig u will be in 1 big group so all it would take to kill u would be a strong FireBall or some skill like blessed hammer that can hit you all

AngelLove

10-01-2009, 15:59

That is true!

But I will not be trying to hit them. The archers will.
I myself will be concentrating on teleporting. Amp when I have the chance.
The archers will auto aim + auto fire.

What's amazing with this build is that "damage is king again".
One hit from me will kill you. and one hit from you will kill me.
Now, who is likely to land the first hit?
I think it might be me due to the auto aim + auto fire.
But it really needs to be experimented. ^_^

Kalkanor

10-01-2009, 16:03

ya i spose your right and it does sound like fun^^

one other thing i would like to point out it will be near impsoable to have the full 46 revives running at the same time since they each only last 180 seconds each:(

AngelLove

10-01-2009, 16:21

That is the biggest problem with this build:
The 3 minute timer.

The faster you gather archers, the more fighting time you have.
But it will likely be less than 2 minutes.

Prebuff with +mastery/revive gear will help with number and damage.
But not time.

Good thing that most ppl look down on summoners, and will not run too hard.
And with that one big monster, your group will look small and friendly.

PS: it only takes 40 archers, not 46, to do 40K with amp. few more or few less don't change much.

sequoia

10-01-2009, 18:20

I'd always thought summons had a much LARGER PvP penalty than the one the players suffered. It also sounds like you are relying on a merc, which most people shy away from.

And stay away from LF zons!

AngelLove

10-01-2009, 20:00

" Minions attack hostile players or their minions, but their damage is reduced by half "
- diablowiki

Please do understand, what kind of struggle I have gone through before posting this.
This build is pure evil. And I do not want to see anyone doing this if this do work.

With that said. You may come up with 100 builds that can kill me in 1 hit.
And I will just repeat 100 times that I will kill them in 1 hit as well.
It will always come down to who is going to land that hit first.
And that can only be known through experiment.

Why should I stay away from anyone again? Because you are sure they will hit me first?
I am useing an auto aim, auto fire, fast speed, long range, 40K+ attack you know.

NoisemakerArrow

10-01-2009, 20:47

You will have low FCR and resists. A Ghost will terminate you, as will LF zons and Fireball sorcs. You won't have block, so other chars will have an edge too. Make sure you don't get hit by Rabies, either. I've seen too many summon-using necros die to desynch Hammerdins to believe minion stack will protect you. Not only does it take 20 minutes to summon all those things, it will take another 20 to resummon once you die (and you will die). And that's assuming people let you get your body back and you remembered to hide your gold so you can rehire your merc. And you'll run out of archers fast.

It's going to be funny when someone uses Slow Missiles on you.

The points in Amp are better spent in Bone Wall for the Armor synergy.

AngelLove

10-01-2009, 21:18

Why are people not getting my point?
Dead people won't attack you. Dead people does 0 physical
and 0 elemental attack damage.
You do not need fast hit recovery or resist against dead people.
(not that you can't get some on your charm or helm or shield or glove or shoe if you do want them)

Dead people will not desynch, dead people will not whirwind or cast fire ball.
You do not need proctection from summon stack or bone armor as
dead people does not do anything, other than being dead.

Please do not compare the all out evil summoner with any other kind-hearted,
half-arssed hybrid. Because the ARCHER KING is all about 1 hit kill.
All will be decided in the first second. You hit me or I hit you. You die or I die.

I know this is hard to comprehand in the "survivle is king" era.
But please do try. 1 hit kill = damage is king = what is fhr?

If it is as I feared. That the archers with the "no fan out trick" will attack
the very nano second that you finish teleport.
your screen will look like this:

XXXIOWNALLXXX is slayed by evil_summoner
XXXPKKINGXXX is slayed by evil_summoner
XXXKILLALLNUBEXXX is slayed by evil_summoner
XXXPOWNGODXXX is slayed by evil_summoner
XXXGODXXX is slayed by evil_summoner
XXXIRULEXXX is slayed by evil_summoner
XXXIEBAYXXX is slayed by evil_summoner
evil_summoner has exited the game

AngelLove

11-01-2009, 13:53

There are a few things I wish to add:

There is a bug that turns a necro into an invincible vampire.
There is another bug that gives you untimed, unkillable revives.
I don't know how to use them. Even if I do, I won't tell.
This is a BM build. Not a CHEATING build.

This is not a guide per se, for I have no intention of guiding anyone
down the path of darkness.

I am not here to argue who is the strongest. But I have done a lot of
thinking and research before posting this. The effectivness of
this build cannot be easily disproved.

I remember dragging around 20 revives, without +skill items,
without teleport, without aura. If you have +skill items, teleport,
and tri-aura, you will find it easy to get 40+ revives.
However, to make them all of the same kind,
takes knowledge of the game and skill as a summoner.
But it can be done. You can bank on it.
(If you find it hard to kill monster fast. Max CE instead of mage.)

Have you ever been killed by hell ranged attacker before?
A pack of archers with a unique can be dangerous.
A pack of archers with nothing but uniques is even more deadly.
A screen full of unique archers that suddenly appear and attack before
you have a chance to respond is.......

Do you see the horror that I see now?

I am not after ownage, I am after knowledge.
That's way I don't care if I ever build one myself.
However, I did try to build one. I worked hard. But doesn't seem to be
getting anywhere near my goal. I have two Pul runes, one I found myself
. One I traded for with a set of keys (God I hope it's not a dupe).
But as you can see. I am far from Jah ith ber of the enigma.
And I need pride, beast and all the charms after that. (plus a soj).
It's hopeless.

And that's why I come before you, good people of the necro forum.
If you have tried this, or if you have fought an archer king before
(defined by 40+ archers, with 3+ auras), please share your wisdom.
Or if you can conjure one up with the magic that you do and test it
yourself, I will be greatful.

Tarantella

11-01-2009, 15:13

Im glad I just enjoy walking my summons around, kicking the odd chest open here and there and sifting through stuff...........:whistling:

AngelLove

11-01-2009, 15:32

I hear you. ^_^
I used to be a happy-go-lucky guy myself.
Untill all those BM guys and Cooki-cutter PKers
filled me with murderous rage.

Now I just want gore. (not al gore)
I want to build one that can kill all BMers, and all Godly windy and pallys.
And this MIGHT be it.

Kaleban

12-01-2009, 19:48

I would say, instead of talking up a build you haven't tried, try it and test it.

Plenty of the PvP Summoner guides list strengths and weaknesses versus various regularly used PvP builds.

One of the problems you'll have is damage (I think its been mentioned) that is AoE, splash and or piercing. A FC Zon will obliterate you, Fireball sorks will fry you, any lightning trapper that namelocks you with MB will also hit all of your minions, a Hammerdin that sets up a hammerfield that you teleport into will pwn you, etc., etc.

There are counters for any class, and while you may think that 40 revived archers = instant death, in a duel situation the other player is likely experienced and not some noov PvMer that has never been PKed before. Which means they'll have 75% block, max DR, probably some static PDR and MDR, teleport from Enigma, etc., etc.

So as I said, if you don't want critticism of your build idea, then YOU must go forth and test it, otherwise simply talking up a hypothetical build with nothing to back it up just makes you look ignorant.

AngelLove

13-01-2009, 07:47

I am begging people to test it!
That is the whole purpose of This post!
This is because I myself am not very capable in that department!
Please do try to understand.

(I am what people called a "weekend warrior", and a "pure" one at that.
There are things that I cannot do. Laugh at me if you must.)

There are kind-hearted summoners out there. Winning duals.
They think it's because of the skeles, it's not.
They happen to have some good revive with them when they win.
That is why.
When they tell people they are winning, no one believed them.
Because those summoners themself don't know why they win.
They tell people how good their skeles are.
But it does not make sense.

Revive might be THE most underestamated skill in PVP.
Are you telling me no one here have the "love of knowledge"
and the "know-how on char building" to find out?
Are you telling me that I bring something interesting in front of you,
but all of you need to be spoon fed the entire package?

Help me put in the last piece of the puzzle.
The archers, do they, or do they not have a hesitation timer?
If they don't, you will reign supreme.

it's that simple, do the math.

AngelLove

13-01-2009, 08:19

People turn into robots after a while.
1 point into revive is the LAW. no one can break the law.
It's ridiculus.
They can kill the ubers, but they cannot do anything to other players,
RIGHT?
They are only good as meat shileds, RIGHT?
200 people visited this thread so far,
and not a single one of them have seen an archer king.
Is that not reason enough to try this?
To boldly go where no man has gone before?

When a group of archers first appear on the edge of screen,
they will not attack. Allowing the player to cast slow missile or dim vision.
But what will happen if you teleported right into their kill zone?

Do you know how desync works?
It takes some time for the image to appear on your screen.
In other words, when you see an archer king.
the "reverse muti-arrow" is already on it's way.
If you choose to fight back.
by the time your missile is lunched.
Their missile would have landed.

No matter how good you are, there are things that cannot be survived.
and 40 unique archers attacking at the same time is one of them.
My damage estimate is on the low end. It could easily be 3 times as much.

(BTW, they are unique arhcers because they are Aura enhanced x4, cursed, and extra strong
, they also teleport, and the low PVP penalty give them a 300% advantage over players.
Most importantly, there are enough of them to cover your entire screen.)

Kaleban

14-01-2009, 02:54

I am begging people to test it!

Before extolling the virtues of a thing, you must first test it YOURSELF, or you just look like an idiot.

(I am what people called a "weekend warrior", and a "pure" one at that.
There are things that I cannot do. Laugh at me if you must.)

Not laughing at you, simply saying don't make outlandish claims about something before first checking it yourself. Its like a physicist saying that perpetual motion is real and simple, but just needs someone else to do the hard work.

There are kind-hearted summoners out there. Winning duals.
They think it's because of the skeles, it's not.
They happen to have some good revive with them when they win.
That is why.
When they tell people they are winning, no one believed them.
Because those summoners themself don't know why they win.
They tell people how good their skeles are.
But it does not make sense.

A person wins a duel when the other person dies. Not because someone has to convince the other they lost. Skeles and skelemagi are known qualities in a build, whereas Revives are not. I highly doubt that in every Summon Necro PvP victory the direct reason is lucky awesome revives. That's statistically impossible.

Revive might be THE most underestamated skill in PVP.
Are you telling me no one here have the "love of knowledge"
and the "know-how on char building" to find out?
Are you telling me that I bring something interesting in front of you,
but all of you need to be spoon fed the entire package?

You might have an interesting idea, but all you're doing is talking up something you have no idea of. You're a snake oil salesman in that respect. Plus, you really shouldn't diss the community that has put up many fine Necro guides, or done this very type of research.

Help me put in the last piece of the puzzle.
The archers, do they, or do they not have a hesitation timer?
If they don't, you will reign supreme.

it's that simple, do the math.

YOU do the math. Simple. Then come tell how it worked out, and you'll get credit for your innovative idea. But stop trying to get others to do the dirty work for you.

AngelLove

14-01-2009, 04:31

Oh! So playing games is DIRTY work now, eh?

IF you don't want to help me, don't.

This build will NEVER be tested if I have to do it myself.
That is the reality of things.

Oh, I get it. You guys don't offer help here, is that it?
Or is it just the testing kind of help that is sold out right now?
Like I said. If you don't want to help, don't.

I am asking for help and you are not helping, so why are you here?
To trash talk someone who is asking for help,
because he is asking for help?
You think that even though I can't build one for testing,
some how I can build one to play with?
That I am using you?

There are many kinds of people in this world,
not everyone do things the same way.
I wish your father have told you this, so I won't have to.

You think I am lazy? That's why I need help?
Keep your assumptions to yourself!
That is not even game related.
That is a direct insult on me!

(snake oil salsman? STOP with the name calling.)
(your negative aura is really hurting my resistance right now, take it eleswhere.)

AngelLove

14-01-2009, 05:00

Why do you feel the need to piss me off?

There are no doubt people out there with a summoner
that has max revive and similar gear like I described.

all he need to do is to take it out for a spin.
get a few archers, fight a good fight.

people helping each other out is a beautiful thing.
Why do you hate beautiful things?
Why do you feel the need to destroy them?
Maybe I am not the one that really need help here.

By the way, where is your guide that you made WITHOUT help?
Show me. You MUST have one, right?

Kaleban

14-01-2009, 08:48

In an attempt to give you fair criticism, I'll go through your OP step by step.

Hi, my name is AngelLove. Long time reader, first time poster.

I have been thinking about this, and doing a lot of research.
But so far I have only found one guy that consider a summon spammer
to be one of the top 5 dulers.

You have a distinct LACK of research, and there MIGHT be a reason why only one person considers a Summoner in the top 5.

There are quite a few PVP summoner guide. But almost all of them suggest
only 1 point in revive. This strike me as odd (or holding back), for revive
is the number one pvp skill for a summoner. Skeles simply don't cut it PVP.
Especially against holy freeze slow, or area effect magic (or both together
, ie. the hurricane).

There's a couple of reasons. The Revive timer, which makes it difficult even with teleport to gather up 46 revived hell archer types. The negatives you list also affect your Revives as well. Revive is NOT the #1 PvP skill for summoners, otherwise it would be more in use. That is just your unsubstantiated claim. And considering that many necros load up on +skills, a 1 point investment can return great dividends on Revive, especially when those points can be added into SM, curses or even a Bone spell, there are several Bone/Summon Hybrid guides for instance.

This is what I come up with. The core of the PVP summoner should be
20 Mastery
20 revive
Rest is up to personal preferance. I would opt for:
20 Skele warrior
20 Skele mage
20 Amp (for speed, less aiming = more speed)
1 in CE for PVM
1 in decrep for act bosses

Your "core" build requires 105 skill points. Not very many people are going to level a guardian/pat/matriarch to level 94 to test some lurker's half-cocked theory.

there will be +9 skill from grand charm, +1 from anni, +3 from torch,
+1 from belt, +1 from ring, +3 from circlet, +3 from necro head, +3 from ammy
+2 from negma. So without going all out, you have 26 plus skills.

Without going all out? 9 skillers, anni, torch, enigma, and expensive other gear in slots. So not only do you want someone else to do the testing for you, you've restricted it to pretty much the uber rich?

That gives you 46 revives at 460% enhanced damage.
Say that you get 46 returned archers at 40 ave. damage.
With +460% from mastery, +90% from beast, +330% from pride,
+50% from HOW(wisp projector) +230% from might,
you get +1160% enhanced damage.
(if mastery add to BASE damage, this amount will more than double.
How does this work exactly? does anyone know?
I will just try to be conservative here and keep it as low as possible.)

More expensive stuff here, Wisp and Beast, Pride, etc. And that's conservative? Not to mention that by the time you are able to Revive the 46th monster, your initial Revives are already dieing off.

Now one single archer will do 500 ave. damage.
and 46 of them will give you a wave of 23000 damage, or 20K+
This amount will double with amp to give you 40K+
or ONE HIT KILL as some might call it.
(the PVP penalty for summons is 1/2, not 1/6)

(I have heard that 15 buged claw vipers will give you 80K+, but it is too evil
even for me. and don't work against some ppl anyway.)

If you sommon one Big guy, the monsters won't fan out.
(less walky, more shooty)
and teleporting at 9 frame with your 45+ chanmpian archers,
you will just be mowing down other players like grass.

Not sure where you're getting all these numbers, but don't you think if these numbers were valid AND the management of 46 Revived archers were possible, that people would be calling this the cookie cutter PvP summoner?

If this DOES work, I wish to discourage it. As you will gain nothing by
distrubing the BALANCE.

But will it work? That is what I would like to know.
And what I need your help with.
(I only know how to build characters the slow way, and have never owned an enigma).

I'm not sure why, but every one of your posts is overflowing with drama and gravitas, over a build you yourself have only conceived of in your head, without taking the time to really work out the details. Here's a couple:

1. Upkeep of Revives. Maintaining 46, much less 46 of a specific type in random spawning areas imho is nigh on impossible.

2. Gear requirement. Utterly rediculous for all but the richest of players, making the ability to test a snowball's chance in hell.

3. Minion stack. This has been mentioned, but you seem all to willing to ignore criticism, but a well aimed fireball, lightning bolt, blessed hammer or any number of AoE/splash attacks will kill you, and your army. A Trapsin would simply namelock you with MB, keeping you and your 46 Revives stunned, while the piercing lightning traps decimate you and your invincible army.

PS. feel free to copy and past this anywhere you like, just mention my name ^_^

If you want name recognition, try testing your idea, and post a writeup of the success or failure. If you can't be bothered to test it, then whoever does (IF ever) deserves the credit for doing th actual work.

NoisemakerArrow

14-01-2009, 09:22

But so far I have only found one guy that consider a summon spammer to be one of the top 5 dulers.

Yeah, there's a reason for that.

Why are people not getting my point?
Dead people won't attack you. Dead people does 0 physical
and 0 elemental attack damage.
You do not need fast hit recovery or resist against dead people.
(not that you can't get some on your charm or helm or shield or glove or shoe if you do want them)

Dead people will not desynch, dead people will not whirwind or cast fire ball.
You do not need proctection from summon stack or bone armor as
dead people does not do anything, other than being dead.

Dead people will not teleport around with 45 champion archers.

Dead people, before dying, desynch and hammer, which prevents them from ever becoming dead. It will help YOU reach that state, though.

A Life Tap wand or Exile will keep people whirlwinding and smiting happily.

And then come 8 minutes of finding new archers, killing them and Reviving them.

what is fhr?"

FHR is what you will need when MBed and trapped, when all your 460%ED archers are just sitting there doing nothing while someone puts their Shadow Dancers in your ***.

1 hit kill = damage is king

And if you never hit, you never kill. You seem to forget you're dueling people who are alive, not dead. They can do plenty.

If you were less of a weekend warrior, you would know monsters don't instantly react to your presence, which is why high FCR makes for safe teleporting.

Archers only hit stationary targets, which aren't too common in PvP.

All will be decided in the first second.

All will be decided the second you take to the field against a char that outclasses you.

You hit me or I hit you.

They hit you.

You die or I die.

You die.

AngelLove

14-01-2009, 17:03

Kaleban: My numbers came from arreat summit.
There is a reason why I post this in the necro forum.
It is so that I wouldn't hear stuff like, 46 revive is impossible.
It's been done MANY MANY times.

NoiseMakerArrow: "Archers only hit stationary targets"?
So they are harmless to anyone but the trap souls?
"which is why high FCR makes for safe teleporting"
What good are they if all they do is teleport?
If you have to stop and do something, it's really not fast teleport anymore
is it?

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Starting from tomorrow, I will be away for a month.
Which means no D2 for sure.
I might be able to check-in here from time to time though.

The basic testing can be done with 125% FCR and any amount of archers.
(with or without auras)
If skele mages can hit, I don't see why archers can't.
But that's just me.

mynamesucks

14-01-2009, 19:23

he sure knows how to make a good impression

Kaleban

14-01-2009, 19:54

Kaleban: My numbers came from arreat summit.
There is a reason why I post this in the necro forum.
It is so that I wouldn't hear stuff like, 46 revive is impossible.
It's been done MANY MANY times.

Look pal, I didn't say Reviving 46 monsters was impossible. What I said was reviving the SAME monster type in a game with random monster spawns, then rushing to duel before the 3minute monster timer runs out IS.

Again, if its been done many many times, then you already know whether it would be successful by the commonality of use. If I remember correctly 1.12 has been out for over six months now, and didn't even contain any major gameplay changes. As many people as there are that play this game, and with as many are number crunchers and optimizers, indicates the reason WHY certain builds are cookie cutters and others not.

While the term cookie cutter has a certain negative connotation associated with it, the bottom line is that they are generally the most effective builds. I don't see why, in the face of glaring evidence to the contrary, you're so gung ho over an idea that I'm sure has been tested, and due to the problems with Revive AI and the 3 minute timer, was thrown out the window as unworkable.

NoiseMakerArrow: "Archers only hit stationary targets"?
So they are harmless to anyone but the trap souls?
"which is why high FCR makes for safe teleporting"
What good are they if all they do is teleport?
If you have to stop and do something, it's really not fast teleport anymore
is it?

Opponents are not stupid AI archers. 200 FCR Fireball Sorks are not going to sit still and politely wait for your archers to kill them. Its also quite simple in longer duels to just wait out the timer on Revives! Any class in dueling nowadays has Teleport, PDR, resists, etc., etc. Your idea will work great against stupid AI, but even bad duelers with mediocre gear are not going to be surprised by a teleporting summoner. Which is WHY you know of only one person who considers summoners one of the top 5, and probably NOT Revive builds, for all the negatives that have been posted in this thread.

Keep posting your over the top drama infused posts though, they're good for a laugh.

The basic testing can be done with 125% FCR and any amount of archers.
(with or without auras)
If skele mages can hit, I don't see why archers can't.
But that's just me.

Then do it. Or are you telling me that you don't have a summoner necro after all this "awesomeness" you attribute to the build? That would be just crazy.

AngelLove

15-01-2009, 01:07

mynamesucks

15-01-2009, 02:55

True the summoner is in controll of the summons but your missing a point that no one has brought up for some reason revive ai is as good as retarded not trying to discredit you or your idea but play around with revives a lil bit use single player and a hero editor out to test your idea see how well the revives handle my experiences with revives are 1 point is enough because theyre worse than A.D.H.D. children with shiny objects in a class room not sure if we can actually mention the editors if not then please let me know and remove post mods

mii_the_people

15-01-2009, 03:10

Regarding my reply to NoiseMakerArrow,
Think of it this way. What would you like to have?
a weak bone spirit that you ONLY use to gather skeles,
or revives that does massive damage?

I am saying that folks out there are holding back by not maxing
revive and using them. And instead of getting melee revives,
while your skeles already have that department covered.
It is better to get ranged revives.

Which part of it does not make sense to you?

At what point did the thread turn into bone spirit vs. revived? most people agree, teeth/bonespear/bonespirit are not worth the points, for a summoner, as a damage dealing spell. people use mages or dim vision or golem mast and use 1 pt. in revived, because nobody realistically expects to always carry around 40 revived that all die in 3 minutes. generally, revived arent needed as damage dealers, anyway. that is what doesnt make sense to me.

Kaleban

15-01-2009, 04:33

"I remember dragging around 20 revives, without +skill items,
without teleport, without aura. If you have +skill items, teleport,
and tri-aura, you will find it easy to get 40+ revives.
However, to make them all of the same kind,
takes knowledge of the game and skill as a summoner. "

I don't like repeating myself, show me that you can read.
You KNOW it can't be done? You tried it and failed?
You know someone that tried it and failed?
Or are you just guessing?

And I don't like repeating myself either. Your quote is taken a bit out of context, since you're advocating 46 revived archers, not just 40 revives. I can hit the River of Flame and revive 40 maggots quick, but will accomplish nothing. The point is the 3 MINUTE TIMER that means no matter how much expert knowledge you have, just keeping your ability to fight up is a race against time. And any EXPERIENCED dueler will tell you that having to rush is a bad idea.

I know many people workship cooki-cutters, I know where you
are coming from. But there is a first time for everything.
You say you are SURE this has been tested.
Why?
You never tried it. I never tried it.
this post have over 450 views and no one claims to have tried it.
People are not always open to new things.
They say things like "things are the way they are for a reason."
And "someone out there must have tried it and failed."

No one worships cookie cutters, people USE them because they've been proven to be the most effective. The reverse of your 450 view count is that many people see this idea and immediately toss it BECAUSE of problems like poor Revive AI and the 3 MINUTE TIMER. And things are the way they are for a variety of reasons, the game's been out for ten years, with hundreds of thousands of players all min/maxing stats and skills for one.

I am looking for peolpe who try stuff.
I take it you are not one of them.
That is fine by me. And I do not hold it against you.

I do "try stuff" just not half baked ideas that are clearly bad from the outset because of obvious problems. Like depending on poor Revive AI and the 3 MINUTE TIMER.

Regarding my reply to NoiseMakerArrow,
Think of it this way. What would you like to have?
a weak bone spirit that you ONLY use to gather skeles,
or revives that does massive damage?

Bone Spirits are smarter than Revives, and there are VERY few sources of Magic Damage Resist in many PvP setups, hence the popularity of teleporting Bonemancers. The difference is, your build is like bringing guns to a nuke fight, auto-targeting, invisible, high damage Bone Spirits will pwn your build in terms of reliability and damage.

I am saying that folks out there are holding back by not maxing
revive and using them. And instead of getting melee revives,
while your skeles already have that department covered.
It is better to get ranged revives.

No one is holding back, its just your idea has no merit. You asked for feedback and criticism and when you get it are insulted. Be careful what you wish for.

Which part of it does not make sense to you?

Most of it, since your idea is half baked at best, terrible at worst.

And while they will teleport to dodge my attack.
Can I not tele to give chase? Can I not tele to dodge as well?
You see, unlike them, the summoner can get away with using only one
skill- teleport. He can concentrat on it!
And as we all know, Concentration gives you 300% ED at lvl 17.

Not sure if you're making a joke here, but just because someone is concentrating on using teleport does not give them a Concentrate (skill) aura for their minions lol. The problem you're not realizing is that all of your power is tied up in a 3 MINUTE TIMER which means your opponent can simply teleport out of range of your archers AI, and since many builds incorporate infinicast teleport, they can simply wait til your revives start expiring then clobber you.

As for running away, the 200% FCR sors can always run away.
I never say they can't.
I am saying that most of tham are too prejudiced against summoners to
do so. And if they stop to cast, they will be in danger,
just like when they are doing PVM.

They won't need to. They name lock you with fireballs, and as you approach to try to kill them, their super high damage fireballs will kill you and your minion stack, or if not kill outright, put all your revives into hit recovery. Don't forget about the minion PvP penalty either.

You see, revived archers are not fake archers. In fact, they are stronger
than any archer groupe the game has to offer.
Don't tell me that no one ever dies to archers.
I won't beleive you.

If you're dieing to archers, its because you're not paying attention. In dueling, paying attention is the most important concept. Most duelers I would assume are able to handle PvM archer groups lol.

Summoner work in a team, you provide your intelligence,
your minions provide fire power.
Don't make it sound like its the game AI against player intelligence.
As if the summoner doesn't exist.

But that's exactly what it is. You simply provide positioning, and rely upon your archer's AI to kill another player. Archers don't lead targets, so anyone who, you know, MOVES during a duel is immune to your attacks pretty much.

And if you are all about survival, you have as much freedom of gear
with this build as anyone else. If not more!
All your damage comes from auras, so you don't need ED, CB, IAS.

Extremely expensive runeword provided auras. Not everyone buys runes or items from websites, especially on these forums, as I said testing this half baked idea is expensive, and most already know it would never work against anything remotely approaching an experienced dueler.

One more thing. Don't make it sound like its easy to think up stuff.
I have to look into every class, every skill, and every gear setup.
Until I finally decieded on revive.
Then I have to look into every combanation of monsters before
I decided on archers.

No you don't. There's guides and strategies out there for almost any type of dueler you can imagine, the reason there isn't one for this is because its a terrible idea, which, in reading your OP, shows a distinct lack of research. I'm telling you all these things just from memory, or what I see in game, and they make sense because I know how the game works.

And what do I have to gain by sharing my idea with you?
All I wanted was some feed back, and is that too much too ask?
I wasn't lying when I say I am only after knowledge here.

And all I gave you was feedback, yet you continually deride it as ill thought out, when its your original cockamamie idea that has no merit.

And If I have an enigma, I would have done the basic testing already.

Again, an expensive runeword to do "basic testing" of a build that is obviously from the get go a bad PvP idea. Let me just make it clear for you:

A high number of Revive archers will kill everything in the game, PvM-wise, because the monsters do not DODGE. PvP on the other hand is out because of the simple fact players DO dodge.

Accept it or not, but don't ask for criticism and feedback on a hazy build idea then reject it because it doesn't conform to your obvious desperate need to believe you're somehow awesome for discovering a secret method that would upset the balance of the PvP world. Lol.

AngelLove

15-01-2009, 10:06

Naysaying is not useful feed back.

I am looking for 1 of 2 answers.

A) I tried it, and the archers never hit anyone.

B) I tried it, and the archers does hit.

You DON'T KNOW if the archers will hit or not.

You just hate me and want to trash talk my idea is all.

And truth be told, I hate you too.

You are just an annoyance.

I am asking for help with testing.

You won't help and yet you won't go away.

If you know so much, tell me this.

How long after the summoner teleport will the archers fire?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

to counter all the trash talk, I should probably say something.

You can revive as fast as you kill. If you can kill 40+ archers in 3 minutes. You can revive them.

Killing 40 archers is not THAT time consuming. Finding them will take most of the time.

(If you have max CE, you know how fast you kill, and don't need me to tell you that.)

And that's where knowledge of the game comes in handy.

Know where to find lots of archers, remember the location.

If there is just no way you can kill 40 archers in 3 minutes, even though they appear in groups of 6+.

You won't be able to do this build.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote Crazy-Asian :

"Any idea for the skills? I was thinking something like

Max Revives
Max Skeleton Mastery
Max Summon Resist
Max Bonespear
Max (something)

I've seen all those revive summoners on NL and they kick *** with just the revives."

Oh look, I found another guy who thinks revives are not worthless! How refreshing.....

PFSS

15-01-2009, 11:19

Naysaying is not useful feed back.

I am looking for 1 of 2 answers.

A) I tried it, and the archers never hit anyone.

B) I tried it, and the archers does hit.

You DON'T KNOW if the archers will hit or not.

Test your idea on Open Battle Net.

Some key flaws:

1. Any AoE attack will decimate your army. Fortunately this will only really be a problem against Fireballers, Blizz Sorcs, Orb-Sorcs, Hammerdins, Lightning Zons, WW Barbs, Bowazons, Trappers etc who make up a small portion of the Dueling community... oh wait...

2. You might find that your skellies don't have that great a hit rate against many melee chars, I don't see any bonus to AR in the skills and only minor increases to AR from your equipment - I count ~130% - much of which comes from a fairly easily killed summon, which would give your skellies an AR of ~8000. Say your opponent has 10,000 defense (which is on the low side for many PvP characters) you will only have a ~40% chance to hit a level 90 charcter. In battles with many melee characters the chance to hit rate will be lucky to reach 25%.

3. Most PvP characters have close to 50% damage reduction.

4. Most PvP characters attack with far fewer frames than your archers, meaning they will make their attacks before your archers manage to fire. All casters will have enough FCR be able to tele away before your summons attack. They only need to do this for a short while until your summons start to vanish and/or they decimate your army with AoE attacks.

5. Your damage dies off dramatically almost from the moment your duel starts, if they manage to keep you running for any length of time you'll be down to half power.

6. I'm not certain but I'm pretty sure that melee PvPers will be able to leech off your summons.

7. A lot of your damage comes from your merc - the time taken to resurrect your merc when he dies will kill ~20% of your summons!

8. A lot of your damage and AR comes from your HoW. Summons from items are often buggy, and even then it is an expensive summon to maintain. Without it you'll also be lucky to have 20% chance to hit.

9. If by some miracle you manage to survive one duel you'll have to remake the game to be able to find enough available summons to take part in a second duel due to your summons either timing out or because they have almost all been killed.

10. Revives have ****ty AI and have a habit of wandering off/vanishing even without the timer.

Kaleban

15-01-2009, 11:31

Naysaying is not useful feed back.

Actually, saying no to something is useful feedback, if something is broken, and saying it works, well thats just crazy talk.

I am looking for 1 of 2 answers.

A) I tried it, and the archers never hit anyone.

B) I tried it, and the archers does hit.

You DON'T KNOW if the archers will hit or not.

Its archer AI that I keep going over and over with you. They don't immediately aim and fire at targets, frequently they'll just putter around. So after a teleport, if your opponent hasn't stunlocked and killed you and your whole minion stack, not all of the archers will fire all at once.

You just hate me and want to trash talk my idea is all.

And truth be told, I hate you too.

You are just an annoyance.

I am asking for help with testing.

You won't help and yet you won't go away.

I don't hate you, you're obviously way to desperate to see this idea become some grand thing. Its not. Sorry.

If you know so much, tell me this.

How long after the summoner teleport will the archers fire?

Don't have exact figures, but what I do know is ranged attackers in a teleport stack don't all start firing simultaneously. I've seen it, and done it, and that's vs. stationary PvM targets. The likelihood of the wonky Revive AI hitting a teleporting player is slim to none.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

to counter all the trash talk, I should probably say something.

You can revive as fast as you kill. If you can kill 40+ archers in 3 minutes. You can revive them.

If you're dueling, likely Hell Act 1 Blood Moor, its probably considered bad manners by other duelers to constantly ask for time-outs while you go farm some more archers. And as most duels last until one or the other is defeated, its also unlikely that there will be enough corpses in the entire Blood Moor, much less 46 archers to revive...

Killing 40 archers is not THAT time consuming. Finding them will take most of the time.

(If you have max CE, you know how fast you kill, and don't need me to tell you that.)

Duh, its not about how fast you can acquire the Revives, its the Revive timer coupled with duel etiquette.

And that's where knowledge of the game comes in handy.

Which you seem to have little of.

Know where to find lots of archers, remember the location.

If there is just no way you can kill 40 archers in 3 minutes, even though they appear in groups of 6+.

You won't be able to do this build.

Spawns are randomized game to game, so this is impossible. You can memorize LIKELY places they will spawn, but if you're not extremely lucky, you're likely to get Fallen or Zombies or something.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote Crazy-Asian :

"Any idea for the skills? I was thinking something like

Max Revives
Max Skeleton Mastery
Max Summon Resist
Max Bonespear
Max (something)

I've seen all those revive summoners on NL and they kick *** with just the revives."

Oh look, I found another guy who thinks revives are not worthless! How refreshing.....

I never said Revives are worthless. However in the context of your idea, having your sole damage output be 46 Revived archers is stupid, both in concept, AND execution. Besides, this is one guy's unfounded assertion, based on spurious observation that a Necro with Revives who won MUST have been because of the revives, and not curses or invisible Bone Spirits, which is MUCH more likely.

Look man, I don't hate you, but your holier than thou tone is annoying, and you keep asking for feedback, which I'm giving you and then saying its worthless. If you just want sycophantic agreement, this is not the place to be. If you look at any of the posted guides, you'll notice pages and pages of dissection and cross examination.

MOST build guides get shot down before they're even posted, because the creators realize the idea is unfeasible due to the mechanics of the game. You simply haven't realized it yet.

[edit] THE REAL REASON Revive Necros stand a chance in dueling is because they depend on many revives to get a one or two hit kill by teleporting onto the opponent, at which point the massive number of minions perform an "alpha-strike" of sorts. The composition of the minion stack isn't as important as quantity, and certainly doesn't depend on the AI to hit reliably.

AngelLove

15-01-2009, 12:55

"Its archer AI that I keep going over and over with you. They don't immediately aim and fire at targets, frequently they'll just putter around. So after a teleport, if your opponent hasn't stunlocked and killed you and your whole minion stack, not all of the archers will fire all at once......

Don't have exact figures, but what I do know is ranged attackers in a teleport stack don't all start firing simultaneously. I've seen it, and done it, and that's vs. stationary PvM targets. The likelihood of the wonky Revive AI hitting a teleporting player is slim to none."
(putter around - move around aimlessly)

Now that is exactly the kind of response that I am looking for.
So you DO have some experience with this.

My question is that did you use the no-fan-out trick?
If they have to fan out, of coures they will not open fire right away.

If the arrows did not arrive at the same time, it could be because
of where they are standing.
I saw groups of archers firing at me, as one, all the time.

as for testimonies... there are planty... it takes some looking-for, is all.

quote Riddleboxx:
"That's how it's done. I vouch Max Revive. Especially for PvP."

quote Squishy-1:
"you cant glitch bone necros anymore so they are pretty much useless now
i like auradins and summon necros and javazons for dueling
auradins you just get a ton of damage auras and charge around the level and people without sorb gear will just drop like flies
summoners you revive monsters with immunities to everything and use an enigma to teleport, it stacks the monsters on top of you and you become invincable, and if you teleport next to them they get hit by all 50+ monsters you have with you
javazons do about 40K in total with charged strike and you can glitch to get it with long range.... good against non sorbers"

(Granted that I don't like melee revives like he does)

There are plenty more... but what's the point.
Revive is a powerful skill in PVP.
And archers deserve to be tested.

I can THINK that someone must have tried it and failed and kept quiet.
But I feel more comfortable with some kind of confirmation.
Can you really blame me for that?

And why would you go to blood moor for archers?
Out side of act 5 town has a good chance of archer spawn, and they are strong.
Other parts of act 5 also have them.
Act 2 have lots of them. Some of them appear to ALWAYS spawn.

PS. open B-net, eh? I will look into it, never tried it though.

PFSS

15-01-2009, 13:11

I'm also not sure you're adding up the damage output realistically:

About 560% of your ED comes from your merc, who will be difficult to keep reviving while maintaining your army. Realistically you'll have 600%ED - bringing your summon damage down to ~40*7 = ~280/archer.

Your archers will have ~25% change to hit, meaning about 10 will do damage.

You have a 50% PvP penalty - reducing the damage to 140/archer.

Your Amp will add 100%ED, but their DR will reduce it by 50% - giving about 210 damage/archer. For a total of 2100 damage.

Bear in mind - every ten "Physical Damage reduced by X" that they have will remove around 150 from this value. And at least one attack will be blocked, removing another 140.

Realistically your "STOMP" will be lucky to do 2000 damage, assuming your opponent doesn't decimate your army with an AoE attack and/or move away too quickly for them to attack.

NoisemakerArrow

15-01-2009, 13:22

He's just like callsignAPOLLO. Whenever people tell him his ideas are bad, he throws a tantrum and says that he wanted feedback, not criticism.

And don't be so sure about the people on these forums not buying items or using hacks. Being a member of these forums doesn't make you a "better" person, and being a "better" person isn't a requirement for joining.

AngelLove

15-01-2009, 13:43

PFSS:

All summoners must protect merc.
That is just how it is.
Some folks will give them maras and fort.

Is it impossible to keep merc alive with minion stack?
Not easy maybe, impossible? No.

I remember one of the modeartor here said something about
merc can be kept alive, and that enable summoners to do PVP.
But I could be wrong.

My numbers are on the low end.
If mastry add to monster base damage.
It would be (100%+460%)X700% and not 100%+460%+700%
That would make a huge difference.
instead of 1160% ED, it would be nearly 4000% ED

No one did answer that question though.

AngelLove

15-01-2009, 13:50

NoisemakerArrow:

I don't want just any kind of feed back.
saying things like "you are an idiot" does not give me the info that I need.
If you don't want to help test this. At least share your experience in this
area. If you have no experience or testing results to offer.

Well, then what are you doing?
You know what they say about assume.

It makes an *** out of you and me.
Well, mostly you.

mii_the_people

15-01-2009, 16:29

He's just like callsignAPOLLO. Whenever people tell him his ideas are bad, he throws a tantrum and says that he wanted feedback, not criticism.

Don't forget about mephistophilis! i can see a lot of parallels between all three of these guide writers.

AngelLove

15-01-2009, 16:49

This is not a guide per se.
I am asking for help with something.

It gets tiring, as some folks keep seeing it as a guide.
And attack it as such.

I am asking for help with a few things. I have a few questions.
If you can't help. If you can't answer.
Then please do not disturb this thread.
Why would you?

Again, this is not a guide.

Though very unlikly, if I do decide to write a guide on this in the future.
I will include who did the testing and what the results are.
I don't like to argue base on assumption.
Cold hard facts are so much easier.

NoisemakerArrow

15-01-2009, 17:53

Some of us who are not
Weekend warriors have shared
Our wisdom and experience
From the realm of PvP.

Everyone here just explained to you
Exactly why your ideas
Will not work in real life.

For some reason beyond me
You think we are insulting you
For pointing out the obvious.

Refrigerator.

AngelLove

15-01-2009, 18:10

Oh! You have experience with archer dualing?
Why didn't you say so?
And when did you share it?

You are not insulting me by assuming this build won't work.
You are getting in the way of me getting the info that I need.

You have not tested this, have you?
You have not summon archers with any build against anyone, have you?
You have not heard or seen archer related dualing, have you?
How am I suppose to trust you, when you have given me nothing
remotely concrete?

Try me, share with me some REAL experience, in THIS area specifically.
Not your experience in PVP in general.
I am a very reasonable guy. And I am sincerely looking for help.
True, I am very passionate about this.
And my standard for GOOD evidence against this is high.
But only because I am passionate.

Do I need to explain to you how the scientific method work?
Any theory, no matter how good, is just a theory without evidence to back it up.
No need to freeze this. If you stop feeding me assumptions.
I would either get real evidence, or it would just fall to the bottom.

ddclone

15-01-2009, 18:35

"All summoners must protect merc.
That is just how it is.
Some folks will give them maras and fort."

Can u tell me how to give maras to a merc? Do you even know this game at all?

ddclone

15-01-2009, 18:39

PFSS:

All summoners must protect merc.
That is just how it is.
Some folks will give them maras and fort.

U guys r wasting your time even talking to this guy!:thumbsdown:

AngelLove

15-01-2009, 18:59

There is someone out there.
Who has seen enough to have seen this done, to a degree.
For example there is a guy that posted once how he decided to be a jerk
and grabed a bunch of archers and went PVP.

Too bad for me, that he did not say what happened next.
Gang up on me all you want.

I am waiting for eyewitnesses.

mii_the_people

15-01-2009, 19:48

We are waiting for you to realize that this is a flawed idea.

NoisemakerArrow

15-01-2009, 20:32

Do I need to explain to you how the scientific method work? Any theory, no matter how good, is just a theory without evidence to back it up.

Before you explain it to me, make sure you understand it yourself. Until there is evidence to support it and it has been tested, a theory is not just a theory, it's a hypothesis.

How am I suppose to trust you, when you have given me nothing remotely concrete?

First of all, I have given you concrete, mortar AND cement.

Second of all, making stuff up and passing it off as fact is very much encouraged on these forums.

Third of all, the archers only spawn in Acts 1, 2 and 5, and in only a few places. They shoot slowly, and they shoot at where the person is, not where he will be. They require too much time to kill and revive. Yes, you can still kill someone with this build, since most people don't know how to duel, but it will be frustrating to play, since you will have to get new minions constantly.

If you want to be BM and use summons, be a town druid.

jel

15-01-2009, 20:56

I have been thinking about this, and doing a lot of research.
But so far I have only found one guy that consider a summon spammer
to be one of the top 5 dulers.

There are quite a few PVP summoner guide. But almost all of them suggest
only 1 point in revive. This strike me as odd (or holding back), for revive
is the number one pvp skill for a summoner. Skeles simply don't cut it PVP.
Especially against holy freeze slow, or area effect magic (or both together
, ie. the hurricane).

This is what I come up with. The core of the PVP summoner should be
20 Mastery
20 revive
Rest is up to personal preferance. I would opt for:
20 Skele warrior
20 Skele mage
20 Amp (for speed, less aiming = more speed)
1 in CE for PVM
1 in decrep for act bosses

there will be +9 skill from grand charm, +1 from anni, +3 from torch,
+1 from belt, +1 from ring, +3 from circlet, +3 from necro head, +3 from ammy
+2 from negma. So without going all out, you have 26 plus skills.

That gives you 46 revives at 460% enhanced damage.
Say that you get 46 returned archers at 40 ave. damage.
With +460% from mastery, +90% from beast, +330% from pride,
+50% from HOW(wisp projector) +230% from might,
you get +1160% enhanced damage.
(if mastery add to BASE damage, this amount will more than double.
How does this work exactly? does anyone know?
I will just try to be conservative here and keep it as low as possible.)

Now one single archer will do 500 ave. damage.
and 46 of them will give you a wave of 23000 damage, or 20K+
This amount will double with amp to give you 40K+
or ONE HIT KILL as some might call it.
(the PVP penalty for summons is 1/2, not 1/6)

(I have heard that 15 buged claw vipers will give you 80K+, but it is too evil
even for me. and don't work against some ppl anyway.)

If you sommon one Big guy, the monsters won't fan out.
(less walky, more shooty)
and teleporting at 9 frame with your 45+ chanmpian archers,
you will just be mowing down other players like grass.

If this DOES work, I wish to discourage it. As you will gain nothing by
distrubing the BALANCE.

But will it work? That is what I would like to know.
And what I need your help with.
(I only know how to build characters the slow way, and have never owned an enigma).

PS. feel free to copy and past this anywhere you like, just mention my name ^_^

Hi AngelLove

Since no one seems able to answer upon your request in stead of just spamming your thread, then I will try to. I intend to only answering your main post, as that is the only relevant post as I see it.

It is good that you have done a lot of research, and it is sad you're not able to finish the research by making the final tests. However I believe to have a solution to your problem.

(if mastery add to BASE damage, this amount will more than double.
How does this work exactly? does anyone know?
I will just try to be conservative here and keep it as low as possible.)

I would strongly suggest that you write this question in the statistics forum. You see the people in the sub forums (from ama to sorc) does not tend to know much about neither in game mechanics nor pvp, which should be rather obvious from the posts you have recieved. Therefore you won't get many answers except from the frest newbies who are still affected by the general b.net pubby to believe to be very knowing in the world of diablo.

Now one single archer will do 500 ave. damage.
and 46 of them will give you a wave of 23000 damage, or 20K+
This amount will double with amp to give you 40K+
or ONE HIT KILL as some might call it.
(the PVP penalty for summons is 1/2, not 1/6)

Do not believe what arreat summits claims to be the correct damage values, check it up by asking here at the statistics forums or at the amazon basin, these guys can read it in the files.

I am impressed by that you can get 46 revives, however I am not experienced by reviving archers, only by reviving tomb vipers, but I do also know tomb vipers are very limited in the game, and since I can usually get 8-15 tomb vipers and do Andariel, Duriel, Mephisto, and Diablo via there poison clouds (single player, so I have the maps), then I believe that you as well may be able to revive 46 archers, however it probably will take some practice.

I believe archers deals partly elemental damage, it depens on the once you choose, I'd recommend to choose a type that is immune to your opponent if that is possible. Therefore I do not know if it is correct "just" doubling when considering amplify.

I believe the pvp penalty for summons is 1/2 * 1/6. I will find a source ASAP, but I will let this stay, since I am not afraid of be mistaken (or to lazy to edit).
Here is a link: http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=323916

Note the calculations by RTB, he is one of the autorities around here (though he suddenly stopped passing by), and as you can see though it's another type of monster, just 10 of those after pvp penalty, block, and what there else where, gave ~10.000 damage pr. second with amplify damage.

If you sommon one Big guy, the monsters won't fan out.
(less walky, more shooty)
and teleporting at 9 frame with your 45+ chanmpian archers,
you will just be mowing down other players like grass.

I believe your archers first round will be fired pretty fast however something to consider:
The arrows does not travel very fast compared to what duel chars are used to (in pvm there are extremely fast though), and therefore you will probably be forced to be somewhat close to your oppenent before your archers can shoot fast enough, so your opponent cannot teleport/run away.

On the same time, my own experience from vipers tells me that with minion stacking, you may be very well protected, but the monsters are trapped in the stack, and cannot shoot unless you leave the minion stack, so you may have to run a bit backwards before they will start shooting. This may not be much of a problem, since in the moment you're out of the stack (1/25th of a second I believe) then the archers will fire.

If this DOES work, I wish to discourage it. As you will gain nothing by
distrubing the BALANCE.

But will it work? That is what I would like to know.
And what I need your help with.
(I only know how to build characters the slow way, and have never owned an enigma).

Why do you worry about balance in a computer game? It really makes no difference if there is one class that beat the rest in player vs. player, after all the majority are still pvm players (last time I checked), and these have no chance against a PK pretty much no matter what char they use.

After all a summoner with maxed corpse explosion should pretty easily be able to whack down baal runs when having a little minion stacking on top, and that is even some very good players are among the baal runners.

As mentioned zonefire will make it easy for you to test it, however remember it is just a game, so no hurry.

Generally now that I have answered all you wrote, then here is my saying:
First of all there are some classes you will beat consistently with this, but so will bone necromancers (sprit + spear) with a minion stack, and they are not dependent on a timer in the same degree since they can revive less monsters, and find these easier (I believe the common players better remembers where the fat guys walks).

You will beat amazons most of the time, they have a hard time getting away, and bone decrep + bone prison will force them to make an attack, at that point you will already be on top of them (they attack only a bit faster than you tele), and they cannot avoid the archers.

You will have trouble against assassins, even with lightning immune monsters given the assassin is not a kicksin / wwsin who will come on to you, but depens on her AI traps to do the biding, all this is due to mind blast. The shadow warrior will most likely get a mind blast in on you before you will hit the assassin (your minions will target the warrior) since the warrior is in front of the assassin, and therefore will be on screen first. As mentioned I'm not certain if your minion will fire at will or you have to run a bit back first, but after being hit by mind blast, the assassin can single you out, and that can get dangerous. You may still beat the common trapper, but the kicksin, and wwsin will go directly at you when you're singled out, and then it will be tough. If cloak of shadows get used then I think you'll have a tough time as well.

I do not believe you will be able to beat a barbarian who have a whole screen range of leap stunning. Since leap (short leaping when you're on screen) will single you out (if you do not know about this mechanism, then leap stuns everything around it in a radius depending on the skill level), and the barbarian will after that be able to teleport on top of you and whack at you.

Druids will pose a big problem, since their tornados can hit through a minion stack (it hits everything). If your revives does the damage you claim, remember that they also have to remove the 5 wolves (though I blieve that will only take 1 shot pr. archers and leave plenty of shots), then you might actually have found the perfect anti druid necromancer. Again if you have to run a bit backwards before they shoot, then I think you can get a lot of trouble, since there is not pvp penalty against revives, it usually only takes 2-3 tornados (14k-21k of damage) to remove every revive.

As for necromancers, well curses like dim vision won't be very fun, since you'll have to teleport on top, if you're required to run a bit backwards before the archers shoot, then spear will get you, if that is not the case, then it could get interesting, however if the necromancer likewise have a lot of revives then it may even things out again (though you should have the advantage if your damage is really that high).

Paladins won't be that much of a hurdle, unless they desynch out of place, and wait until the 3 minutes have passed. Since paladins can desynch due to their fast charge, you'll have trouble by getting the archers to hit them (since you generally cannot teleport on top of someone you do not know where is). However the paladin cannot really do you much harm likewise.

Finally sorcereres, if they teleport faster than you, then it requires some great skills to teleport just so you land on top of them, when they have more frames until the next teleport before your archers can shoot. However with the stacked resist, and absorb plus immune revives, you should not fear of loosing to the sorc during the first 3 minutes at least.

What really is the problem is that necromancers do not pocess a capturing skills like barbarians (leap) and assassins (mind blast), therefor I believe even if your build is as good as it may be, then it will only be the very trained people who will be able to use it with succes, and thus no fear of balance due to what I just wrote above.

For the matter of life tap, if physical immune archers exists, then they solve this problem, except against assasins and barbarians who can single you out.

the damage sounds good but the 1 problum i would like to point out is when you tele with enig u will be in 1 big group so all it would take to kill u would be a strong FireBall or some skill like blessed hammer that can hit you all

Blessed Hammer does only hit a single target at a time, so no problem there.

Reviving fire immune archers, and stacked resist with maybe a bit absorb will prevent fireballs from having any effect.

ya i spose your right and it does sound like fun^^

one other thing i would like to point out it will be near impsoable to have the full 46 revives running at the same time since they each only last 180 seconds each:(

It depens on the monster density of the area, and the amount of available areas of the monsters needed. If the player is experienced so it is just a matter of seconds from one area to another, then I blieve 3 areas (3 bosses each area) will be sufficient. This will still give relatively long time of the revives.

Though as soon as the first 100 revives or so (I think 100 is to may actually) have been used (that is not even 10 minutes totally of dueling), then I am afraid the game will be pretty much emptied for good candidates, though as stated I do really not know how many easily accesible archers there are in the game. Still with the numbers (3 times of reviving) 10 minutes is not a long time at all in a duel game, where people often stand in the town waiting or chatting, and in non pub duels I do not believe this kind of tactic will be legal, simply because of the power of it.

I'd always thought summons had a much LARGER PvP penalty than the one the players suffered. It also sounds like you are relying on a merc, which most people shy away from.

And stay away from LF zons!

I think (according to the link I wrote) the penalty is 1/6th. Revive is as well not very acceptable, so I see not much of a difference in using a merc, who is to decide what rules there are of the game else than blizzard as long as one plays in a public game?

I do not believe LF zons will be much of a problem, stacked resist + absorb together with lightning immune archers should solve that.

You will have low FCR and resists. A Ghost will terminate you, as will LF zons and Fireball sorcs. You won't have block, so other chars will have an edge too. Make sure you don't get hit by Rabies, either. I've seen too many summon-using necros die to desynch Hammerdins to believe minion stack will protect you. Not only does it take 20 minutes to summon all those things, it will take another 20 to resummon once you die (and you will die). And that's assuming people let you get your body back and you remembered to hide your gold so you can rehire your merc. And you'll run out of archers fast.

It's going to be funny when someone uses Slow Missiles on you.

The points in Amp are better spent in Bone Wall for the Armor synergy.

He claimed 9 frames teleport, so he is probably not using the gear of the original post, that was just to show the damage I guess.

Resist is usually easy solveable with the cost of a few +skills.

Fearing elements in d2 pvp seems a bit odd in my honest opinion, of course if one is not prepared well enough, elements are some of the most dangerous kinds of attacks, but I do not believe we should assume, that he will walk out with not resist, though his first geat introduction may partly have suggested that, he clearly states otherwise when mentioning the 9 frames teleport.

Block is determined by dexterity, so I cannot see how you deduce he would have low block? Block will be important when he gets singled out from his minion stack, but even with block, life tap will be destroying, so in a way block could be skipped.

It is simple mathmatics to know how well minion stack protects, in the case of 46 revives it would enhance his chance of living through a blessed hammer tremedously, but with "just" 3-5 revives the chance, still improved a lot, is not nearly as high.

Please do not write about things you do not know about, it does clearly not take 20 minutes to revive 46 archers, in pvm necromancers are pretty effective.

I really don't think slow misile will make much of a difference, since all the misile usually will have to do is to travel from the necromancer on to the amazon after a telestomp, not to mention an amazon using slow missile is a stationary target that has to be inside once screen to the last part of the animation. This makes an easy targets.

The points in amp does not have anything to do with this thread, he asks wether the damage is possible, and if the build will work, he does not ask about suggestions in placing skill points.

There are a few things I wish to add:

There is a bug that turns a necro into an invincible vampire.
There is another bug that gives you untimed, unkillable revives.

If these bugs exists, then I'd strongly suggest that you make sure Blizzard knows about them. Though I really do not see the big problem in these two bugs, if it turns out the damage of the revives aren't much after all, then if they stay or not, and they can be destroyed or not, does not matter much from the perspective of others, however it will make it a bit funnier (especially with the no timer) for the usual pvm necromancer, so I suggest you share your knowledge about this.

I would say, instead of talking up a build you haven't tried, try it and test it.

He asks for someone to test it since he does not believe he can do so, since you does not offer a solution to this problem you're really just spamming the thread.

Plenty of the PvP Summoner guides list strengths and weaknesses versus various regularly used PvP builds.

This is no guide, it's a (several) question(s).

One of the problems you'll have is damage (I think its been mentioned) that is AoE, splash and or piercing. A FC Zon will obliterate you, Fireball sorks will fry you, any lightning trapper that namelocks you with MB will also hit all of your minions, a Hammerdin that sets up a hammerfield that you teleport into will pwn you, etc., etc.

AoE as long as not elemental (tornado pretty much) is the only real problem, piercing does not hit targets on top of eachother, and splash is the same as AoE. Hammers only hits single targets. They pierce, but do not splash.

Sure hacks will probably beat him, what did you expect? However stacked resist + absorb will take care of most elemental attackers if you can get to them, and there are amazons pretty easy.

There are counters for any class, and while you may think that 40 revived archers = instant death, in a duel situation the other player is likely experienced and not some noov PvMer that has never been PKed before. Which means they'll have 75% block, max DR, probably some static PDR and MDR, teleport from Enigma, etc., etc.

So as I said, if you don't want critticism of your build idea, then YOU must go forth and test it, otherwise simply talking up a hypothetical build with nothing to back it up just makes you look ignorant.

Well then tell me the counter class of the Barbarian? The only counter I can come up with is another stronger Barbarian, otherwise it's pretty even against most classes (Necromancers and Paladins, to some extend Amazons), and pretty dominant against others (Assassins, Druids, and Sorcs).

Honestly, I really do not believe any duelist concerns about PDR by integer, that is just stupid, since it is so seldom needed, and there are already pretty tight stash limits as it is for many duelers.

Of course the damage should be calculated with the maximum possible defense of the opponent, what did you expect?

He does not ask about what you think about his idea, he asks if the pvp enviroment allows for it (if the archers will be as effective in firing as a shadow warrior firing mind blast when an opponent comes close, or if they will be more like slow, and easy avoidable.)

Further he says he's not able to test it, and asks others to do so, it really makes you look ignorant when you don't read the post you're answering (You had that one comming, I really don't mean it makes you look ignorant, since many people here does it, and I believe ignorant to be decided by the common denominator).

Before extolling the virtues of a thing, you must first test it YOURSELF, or you just look like an idiot.

I think you're lucky no one have reported you for flaming, since you do not really explain why it is as you say. It's completely legimite to ask others to test, if one is not able to. In science there are usually the people who makes the theories, and the people who makes the experiments, those who makes the theories uses data from various sources, as AngelLove have done in his oppening post, then the theorists asks the experimentalist to get some data, to check wether his theory, which he got by looking at previous data, holds true. In computer games we are so lucky that it does not have to be like that, but not all of us have the time, or the ability to make these tests. It's "idiotic" to think otherwise. (Again you had that one comming)

Not laughing at you, simply saying don't make outlandish claims about something before first checking it yourself. Its like a physicist saying that perpetual motion is real and simple, but just needs someone else to do the hard work.

No, as stated there's a clear difference between theory and experiment, that you're writing are both theory. Like if I said the there exist a build that can win every duel, but someone else has to find it.

A person wins a duel when the other person dies. Not because someone has to convince the other they lost. Skeles and skelemagi are known qualities in a build, whereas Revives are not. I highly doubt that in every Summon Necro PvP victory the direct reason is lucky awesome revives. That's statistically impossible.

What are you talking about, convincing people? Where did that came from? Skeletons, and especially mages are not in any way good enough for strong duels.

Probably not every victory, but some monsters out there do hit hard, and it may very well be a lot of the victories came that way.

Nothing can be statistically impossible, it can be statistically improbable, but realistic impossible.

You might have an interesting idea, but all you're doing is talking up something you have no idea of. You're a snake oil salesman in that respect. Plus, you really shouldn't diss the community that has put up many fine Necro guides, or done this very type of research.

He got the idea from other places, combining data in a way not many have done before, and it needs to be tested, what do you expect when he asks someone to test it?

This community is past its glory days in my honest opinion. You can find few knowing duelist people in the pvp section, but these does not seem to go much out of there, and you can find some few people who really knows a lot about the game mechanics in the statistics section, but look at the amount of people who reguarly post, and amount of misinformation that goes around. It is not weird that the knowing people seem to dissapear from this community. Finally look at this post, a user asks if someone can test something, and all he gets back is that people finds his suggest laughable.

YOU do the math. Simple. Then come tell how it worked out, and you'll get credit for your innovative idea. But stop trying to get others to do the dirty work for you.

He has done the math, and also asks help about this as well. You should read his post.

In an attempt to give you fair criticism, I'll go through your OP step by step.

He does not ask for an opinion, he asks for facts. Only the duel part is opinion demanding, and many before you already answered this, and that incorrect assuming he'd play around like a n00b.

You have a distinct LACK of research, and there MIGHT be a reason why only one person considers a Summoner in the top 5.
Again what do you think the point of this thread is?

There's a couple of reasons. The Revive timer, which makes it difficult even with teleport to gather up 46 revived hell archer types. The negatives you list also affect your Revives as well. Revive is NOT the #1 PvP skill for summoners, otherwise it would be more in use. That is just your unsubstantiated claim. And considering that many necros load up on +skills, a 1 point investment can return great dividends on Revive, especially when those points can be added into SM, curses or even a Bone spell, there are several Bone/Summon Hybrid guides for instance.

I partly agree, but your logic is failed. The argument, A is better than B, otherwise everyone would already know B was the best, can win every argument if it was not failed logic. Either you go all the way, or bone spells are not worth it. He wants 46 revives for a reason, it gives that number when adding the skills, 46 is a lot better than 27, remember that.

Your "core" build requires 105 skill points. Not very many people are going to level a guardian/pat/matriarch to level 94 to test some lurker's half-cocked theory.

Bad bad example. Level 94 is not the limit where it gets to boring to play on for many people, just look at the ladder, but eventhough, test will usually be done in single player for easy accesibility, and if possible, to ensure lag free environment.

Without going all out? 9 skillers, anni, torch, enigma, and expensive other gear in slots. So not only do you want someone else to do the testing for you, you've restricted it to pretty much the uber rich?

Wether or not items are expensive are dependent of the wealth one has. For AngelLove they may be expensive, but just look at d2jsp, many there could easily buy such a necromancer, and thereby making it not expensive. Heck one guy I know who started some time after the ladder reset has gotten his hands into lots of stuff by cow leveling and collecting good socketed plain items.

And yes he wants someone else to test it for him, because he believe it is not possible for himself, is there any problem about asking others do so, when one self are limited? It is a great opportunity if it turns out the build is very good, and if it sucks then it really does not take that much to create it. (Just to test it does not require level 94). If he could not come here asking for this, then this forum would have lost the last meaning it had (okay I did not mean that, sorry).

More expensive stuff here, Wisp and Beast, Pride, etc. And that's conservative? Not to mention that by the time you are able to Revive the 46th monster, your initial Revives are already dieing off.

Conservative does not come down to the equipment, since we all know what the equipment does, otherwise you can find it at arreat summit, no what is conservative is the ways where one is not certain, then setting these area as low as possible.

I disagree about the revives, but I have written that to you so many times now I will not write the same again, for further explanation, look up.

Not sure where you're getting all these numbers, but don't you think if these numbers were valid AND the management of 46 Revived archers were possible, that people would be calling this the cookie cutter PvP summoner?

No, it's failed logic to assume very possible variant of any possible character has ever been tested, not to mention given up to public.

His numbers seems valid, try testing his sources, however I doubt them, not because I doubt him, no I doubt his sources (Blizzard's homepage).

I'm not sure why, but every one of your posts is overflowing with drama and gravitas, over a build you yourself have only conceived of in your head, without taking the time to really work out the details. Here's a couple:

Why are you flaming? This is the sort of things that can get you banned.

And he sure did look at the details, he looked at the damage calculations, given by the sources he had, and wanted someone to confirm by testing, and wanted someone with knowledge in mechanics to tell how the damage actually is calculated, and how revives works in a pvp environment (cool down, autoaim, etc.)

1. Upkeep of Revives. Maintaining 46, much less 46 of a specific type in random spawning areas imho is nigh on impossible.

2. Gear requirement. Utterly rediculous for all but the richest of players, making the ability to test a snowball's chance in hell.

3. Minion stack. This has been mentioned, but you seem all to willing to ignore criticism, but a well aimed fireball, lightning bolt, blessed hammer or any number of AoE/splash attacks will kill you, and your army. A Trapsin would simply namelock you with MB, keeping you and your 46 Revives stunned, while the piercing lightning traps decimate you and your invincible army.

1. He never talked about how long he wanted to duel, why do you mention this? Upkeeping should not be the problem, the problem should be if he can get his opponents down before the timer expire.

2. You should try to play this game some more, it is really not hard to get great gear, and finally someone with a single player editor could test it quickly (I do not think AngelLove thought about this).

3. Do not talk about things you clearly do not know about. Blessed Hammer only hits one target at a time. Elemental damage can be resisted, and absorbed, to a degree that does not make those a threat.
Though I partly agree with some of your comments, but minion stack is simple as an example the paladins worst nightmare.

If you want name recognition, try testing your idea, and post a writeup of the success or failure. If you can't be bothered to test it, then whoever does (IF ever) deserves the credit for doing th actual work.

He cannot test his idea, you write it youself, but still in every post you suggest he should do it anyway, is that not a weird claim? He does not state wether or not he bothers to do anything, it is more a matter of ability, which he states he does not have, is that really so hard to comprehend?

Yeah, there's a reason for that.

Dead people will not teleport around with 45 champion archers.

Dead people, before dying, desynch and hammer, which prevents them from ever becoming dead. It will help YOU reach that state, though.

A Life Tap wand or Exile will keep people whirlwinding and smiting happily.

And then come 8 minutes of finding new archers, killing them and Reviving them.

FHR is what you will need when MBed and trapped, when all your 460%ED archers are just sitting there doing nothing while someone puts their Shadow Dancers in your ***.

And if you never hit, you never kill. You seem to forget you're dueling people who are alive, not dead. They can do plenty.

If you were less of a weekend warrior, you would know monsters don't instantly react to your presence, which is why high FCR makes for safe teleporting.

Archers only hit stationary targets, which aren't too common in PvP.

All will be decided the second you take to the field against a char that outclasses you.

They hit you.

You die.

No argumentations equals spam, what you just wrote was:

Spam.

Partly agree, but hammers does not work great against stacking.

Physical immune wins against smiters since they cannot single the necromancer out. Whirlwind barb can however, there I agree.

Spam. You have no idea of the time, so why do you postulate as you have?

FHR won't help him much when singled out. His only damage source is from archers, and they cannot recover. (Though stun works differently on monsters than what you may think)

Teleports are limited to as low as 7 frame for the fastest. Many monsters hits faster than that. If you have played a bit pvm on hell, and have been hit by a group of monsters that does more than 1/12th of your hit point, you will notice that you can walk away, but you can certainly not teleport away. When the group is ranged and will to every time fire in the direction you walk out, then you are pretty much chanceless in avoiding a hit.

Correct, but it requires more than 9 FPS IIRC, and that is monsters that you do not land on top of (you may have noticed you merc often gets a few swing in eventhough you keeps on teleporting). Beside this necro have a merc as well who will probably either make you block (so you won't get to teleport away in time) or anyone who teleports fast enough to avoid the general monster would also likely be stunned when hit by a merc. Therefore your argumentation does not hold valid. It requires to be tested.

Incorrect, if you played more PVM you'd know.

Spam.

Spam.

Sorry about not quoting every part, this post seems more and more like a waste of time.

he sure knows how to make a good impression

Why are you spamming? The math should be enough to make a person decide wether or not he wants to test this build. Are you also one of the folks who vote on politicians depending on how popular they are, and not on what they wish to change in the community?

Look pal, I didn't say Reviving 46 monsters was impossible. What I said was reviving the SAME monster type in a game with random monster spawns, then rushing to duel before the 3minute monster timer runs out IS.

Again, if its been done many many times, then you already know whether it would be successful by the commonality of use. If I remember correctly 1.12 has been out for over six months now, and didn't even contain any major gameplay changes. As many people as there are that play this game, and with as many are number crunchers and optimizers, indicates the reason WHY certain builds are cookie cutters and others not.

While the term cookie cutter has a certain negative connotation associated with it, the bottom line is that they are generally the most effective builds. I don't see why, in the face of glaring evidence to the contrary, you're so gung ho over an idea that I'm sure has been tested, and due to the problems with Revive AI and the 3 minute timer, was thrown out the window as unworkable.

However you really do not know if it is impossible, so why do you insist?

Again, failed logic, look at earlier explanation.

Not many of the people are into the game mechanics, have you never met the average b.net guy, who thinks metoer steals his experience, and poison bugs critical strike?

What evidence? The so called experienced people who write one thing after another wrong?

Opponents are not stupid AI archers. 200 FCR Fireball Sorks are not going to sit still and politely wait for your archers to kill them. Its also quite simple in longer duels to just wait out the timer on Revives! Any class in dueling nowadays has Teleport, PDR, resists, etc., etc. Your idea will work great against stupid AI, but even bad duelers with mediocre gear are not going to be surprised by a teleporting summoner. Which is WHY you know of only one person who considers summoners one of the top 5, and probably NOT Revive builds, for all the negatives that have been posted in this thread.

Keep posting your over the top drama infused posts though, they're good for a laugh.

It really sounds like you have tested this build, but you keep claiming that it must have been tested because in the time that has passed since the game was released, every single possibility must have been tested. I mean comeon do you know how long time it took before Amazon Basin found out that strafe was not a 2 frame attack? Do you know how many people who now thinks that bears cannot hit 12,5 times pr. second while they in fact can? You're the one making claims here, you have no evidence, and you've flamed quite a lot.

Then do it. Or are you telling me that you don't have a summoner necro after all this "awesomeness" you attribute to the build? That would be just crazy.

In every single post you have written this, every time you have got an asnwer, the answer even stands in the very first post, I have answered it several times by now, you even admitted to have read it earlier! Because something looks really good on paper does not mean it is possible for the given person to test it, on paper it also looks like a combination of volcano and mind blast will stun any char in the game (that does not use wsg), and yet no one has tested it yet. You expect way to much of this comunity, and stop flaming the other people please.

Oh well it seems like the thread keep on repeating it self, I will just stop now, and wont comment on what other people have wroten, since it's probably just the same kind of "no evidence, failed logic, false information, flame" kind, that has nothing to do with the OP, that asks for only three simple things.

My bottom line is, AngelLove, use a hero editor as written in the top, when you have the time, that's probably the only way you're going to find out.

Kaleban

15-01-2009, 21:50

Jel, I'm not going to quote your excruciatingly long post.

Suffice to say, the original idea is bad, for any number of reasons that I and other have pointed out. I haven't flamed, nor has anyone else.

Going on the defensive over an idea that is clearly bad from the outset is a magnet for criticism. As has been mentioned, this basic idea is in the same vein as Callsignapollo's video guides, or mehpistophilis's horribly researched and usually wildly inaccurate guides.

Some of your responses to my points make absolutely no sense, causing me to wonder if you comprehend what it is you're reading. Such as these:

1. He never talked about how long he wanted to duel, why do you mention this? Upkeeping should not be the problem, the problem should be if he can get his opponents down before the timer expire.

2. You should try to play this game some more, it is really not hard to get great gear, and finally someone with a single player editor could test it quickly (I do not think AngelLove thought about this).

3. Do not talk about things you clearly do not know about. Blessed Hammer only hits one target at a time. Elemental damage can be resisted, and absorbed, to a degree that does not make those a threat.

1. At most, he limits himself to a 3 minute duel. Do you have any duel experience? I doubt it. And thats if his build can acquire all the Revives (specifically archers) in a quick enough time frame to make it work. Which as I said is highly unlikely, and given that MOST duelers are self-contained and ready to go, all the tactics this build would require are largely considered BM.

2. Most good duelers would not waste the kind of gear needed to make this build mediocre when it could go on a different build and make it great.

3. And how do you reckon that any player will be teleporting through acts 1, 2 and 5 fast enough to find multi-resist/immune archers, killing them all quickly enough to have 46 up, then get back to act 1 fast enough before the 3 minute timer starts expiring?

Again, despite your abnormally long post, which I did read in its entirety, you, like AngelLove here, are not thinking about the simple logistics of such a build that makes what you're suggesting unlikely in the extreme, and is probably why its not the game unbalancing PvP monster AngelLove was hoping to get credit for.

And as for this:

No, it's failed logic to assume very possible variant of any possible character has ever been tested, not to mention given up to public.

Wrong, its quite good logic to assume that in a game with few if any balance changes in years, given the size of the playerbase, and the relative strengths of skills being known inside and out, that MOST decent builds have been posted. Sure, there are still possible wacky variants out there, but if I were to say that a teleporting max Static Field sorc with no finisher was the new ultimate dueler and could someone test it for me, I'd be laughed off the forum.

The fact that both AngelLove and now you have been given well thought out responses with accurate criticism is more courtesy than either of you deserve.

jel

15-01-2009, 22:44

First of all, I whish to make something clear, that may have been missed in my previous post.

The OP asks for the following three things:
Help with testing of a build, here the reason is due to the believed way damage of archers are calculated.

No one has done this.

Help with someone confirming that the damage actually are calculated by this.

No one has done this, only talked about he should consider block, etc., though this was never a part of his original post.

Confirm how well archers respond to the PvP environment.
Here I agree with many on the look of the offensive part, and wether or not it's possible to revive 46 monsters. I do as well believe it to be unlikely, but I still believe a skilled player may actually do it.
Likewise I do know that the archers does not shoot in the first moment, but the cool down timer does not interfer before the first shot (just look at the speed of the shadow master and tell me if you can teleport past that, not even at 7 frames you can), but they shoot very fast, the only reason that people get past monsters with more than 9 frames teleport, is because monsters do not instant hit, when they swing, like the shadow warrior.

However if the necromancer has stomped someone, it will be almost an instant hit, given no previous rounds have been made of firing, and given the necromancer does not need to move back a little before the archers will shoot. Beside, if anyone have teleported with a merc, they know he still makes some swings at stuff even at that speed, since the necromancer has a merc, it is very well possible for him to actually stop the teleporting character. If the opponent on the other hands teleports slower than 9 frames, he'll mostly be caught anyway. Of course there are exceptions, but the biggest one in this are the paladins, who in it self really cannot do much until the timer expire.

Now if no one has a comment on the OP 3 questions, then pr. definition what they write in this topic is spam.

Jel, I'm not going to quote your excruciatingly long post.

Suffice to say, the original idea is bad, for any number of reasons that I and other have pointed out. I haven't flamed, nor has anyone else.

Going on the defensive over an idea that is clearly bad from the outset is a magnet for criticism. As has been mentioned, this basic idea is in the same vein as Callsignapollo's video guides, or mehpistophilis's horribly researched and usually wildly inaccurate guides.

Some of your responses to my points make absolutely no sense, causing me to wonder if you comprehend what it is you're reading. Such as these:

1. At most, he limits himself to a 3 minute duel. Do you have any duel experience? I doubt it. And thats if his build can acquire all the Revives (specifically archers) in a quick enough time frame to make it work. Which as I said is highly unlikely, and given that MOST duelers are self-contained and ready to go, all the tactics this build would require are largely considered BM.

2. Most good duelers would not waste the kind of gear needed to make this build mediocre when it could go on a different build and make it great.

3. And how do you reckon that any player will be teleporting through acts 1, 2 and 5 fast enough to find multi-resist/immune archers, killing them all quickly enough to have 46 up, then get back to act 1 fast enough before the 3 minute timer starts expiring?

Again, despite your abnormally long post, which I did read in its entirety, you, like AngelLove here, are not thinking about the simple logistics of such a build that makes what you're suggesting unlikely in the extreme, and is probably why its not the game unbalancing PvP monster AngelLove was hoping to get credit for.

And as for this:

Wrong, its quite good logic to assume that in a game with few if any balance changes in years, given the size of the playerbase, and the relative strengths of skills being known inside and out, that MOST decent builds have been posted. Sure, there are still possible wacky variants out there, but if I were to say that a teleporting max Static Field sorc with no finisher was the new ultimate dueler and could someone test it for me, I'd be laughed off the forum.

The fact that both AngelLove and now you have been given well thought out responses with accurate criticism is more courtesy than either of you deserve.

Thank you for replying Kaleban, I'll answer each of your points one by one in the way they are quoted.

I think I may have made a mistake, since the two of us may have a different understanding of flaming. To me flaming is to aquire another person with negative charged qualities, that for the first, the offender cannot know anything about, and second, it does not have anything to do with the debate the offended are participating in. I find that it has been done a lot of times by many in this topic, but I am not moderator, and I am not one to feel offended on other peoples way. That is also why I have not choosen to report this thread to a moderator.

Funny how you mention names, but what do you know about these names? If it is the same mephistophelez that I'm thinking about, then you're badly mistaken.

CallSignAPOLLO do very much for this community, who is pretty much getting wider and wider with more people who are not used as much to guides as to youtube. If he would just take his time to first write the guide on the forums, get the critique, then rewrite it, get some more critique until it was generally acceptable, and then making it into a short youtube video, then he would honestly be one of the most giving in this community of all times!

1. Read his own posts again, he does not want to "own" a duel place, he wants to go out, summon the bad guys, go back, let it go "bam bam bam", and then pretty much just leave the game. That I believe it will not go like this is clearly stated in my post, however I still believe it is one of the areas that needs to be tested. So this point really does not matter much, he asked how it would go in general pvp, and he has many times got told, that the revives won't last long if he manages to get 46 of them.

2. What do you mean about wasting? If they already have it they can always mule. Anyway it does not matter, the proper thing will always be to test it in the most lag free environment first hand, and that is over single player these days I assume.

3. I clearly posted I have no experience with archers, heck I don't even remember what acts they spawn in (read that you do), but I do believe that if a person train something, then they'll get better at it, and I do believe that if there are enough unique critters (which gives a lot of minions) in a certain area, then it does not take many areas, so it will come down to killing speed, since one can teleport to the right location before engaging battle.

I repeat, I never claimed it would be good in pvp, actually I do not believe it will, read my first post where I write how it will go against the common opponent in each class form, and you'll see my points. However I believe this is something that needs to be tested, and I will come in on the last, and most important part about this in a moment.

Wrong, its quite good logic to assume that in a game with few if any balance changes in years, given the size of the playerbase, and the relative strengths of skills being known inside and out, that MOST decent builds have been posted. Sure, there are still possible wacky variants out there, but if I were to say that a teleporting max Static Field sorc with no finisher was the new ultimate dueler and could someone test it for me, I'd be laughed off the forum.

It is by far incorrect to claim that: Because something has never tested to be true, it must be false.

Yes we can talk about probability, but since we do not know much about the player base in general, this is pretty much a lost cause, and you claim 6 years to be a sufficient period. On what grounds?

Your example with the static field sorc is not very good, because it needs the mathmathics to make it valid. AngelLove has this math behind his suggestion, and he also asks if the math is correct.

Now the fact is that since no one has answered anything else, than how such a build on general basis will do in pvp I think I can safely assume that you do not know if the math is correct, and you have not tested it. I do not know if the math is correct, and I have not tested. No one in this thread probably has. And do you know what? No one at all probably have. Look at the statistics forums, Orphan made a post about the speed of some in game monsters. I bet that 99% of the people on this forum, and 99% of the people of the entire community did not know this!

You did by the way ignore my example of strafe just as well, but it proves that there are still things that needs to be tested, to claim that we know everything there is to know about diablo, how simple the game may be, is just wrong. It is like when the world claimed that there was no more to discover, just to few years after finding out that vira existed (or something like that, I don't really remember).

One of the areas that has the least information is actually revives. Can you maybe tell me the damage output if we replace archers with black souls? Can you tell me the amount of souls I need to be effective as a function of the opponents resist given equal skills?

So Kaleban, I believe you as well as many others in this thread has answered question nr. 3, though with some wrong info (blessed hammer hitting through a minion stack, who makes this up!?) but no one has answered question nr. 2, or nr. 1, and therefore further writings seems like spam IMHO. That is unless someone answeres these questions.

Beside look at the posts, and look at people like mii_the_people or ddclone, who have done nothing else than to insinuate that AngelLove is what I would call a n00b. And that is unacceptable! Here are some examples:

"All summoners must protect merc.
That is just how it is.
Some folks will give them maras and fort."

Can u tell me how to give maras to a merc? Do you even know this game at all?

Uh huh what is next? Are you going to go through spelling mistakes? People claimed that blessed hammer goes through minion stack, that is by far a worse mistake, since that would make a hammerdin feel safe, when he in fact is in danger. No need to points out the obvious by spamming the thread. Stick to the OP, no one forced you to comment.

U guys r wasting your time even talking to this guy!:thumbsdown:

Again why this spam? You are indulging in a flame war by these comments, and if it was my board you I would have had to have a talk with you.

We are waiting for you to realize that this is a flawed idea.
That is not the meaning of the OP. The OP has three clear questions. The idea of complete domminace in PVP is flawed, that has been pointed out by many, but the fact that the archers might really pack a punch, well no one has been able to write much against that except that block should be taken into consideration. But the math of the game aren't even clear for the people who have written in this post, and none have taken time to test it, so what you're writing is more like +1, and that is also spam.

Don't forget about mephistophilis! i can see a lot of parallels between all three of these guide writers.

If we're thinking about the same person, then I would say that said person have way more authority on these boards (or at least should have) than you.

I am not saying I do not agree with quite a lot what has been written, but comeon people, question nr. 3 has been answered, no it will not do well in pvp against every class, but if the archers acts like this and this it may actually do well against some (refer to my first post)

And I will repeat, try to ask your second question, about wether auras multiplies or adds with skeleton mastery damage boost in the statistics forums, there are much higher odds of getting the correct answer there, than here.

Edit: Though this really should not be about this, I'd like to emphasize: Because something never have been proven wrong, does not make it right.
Because something have never been proven right, does not make it wrong.

Kaleban

15-01-2009, 23:10

Jel.

Callsignapollo's video guides suck, period. They always contain misinformation, are poorly researched, and generally are very poor compared to written guides that are stickied here. The video format is interesting, but the important part, information fails.

There are two Mephs. Mephiztophelez (spelling lol) who has contributed a great deal, and Mephistophilis, who's guides and information are even worse than Apollo's.

And in regards to what AngelLove wanted, he's submitting an idea for a PvP build. Rather than waste time to test a baloney idea, he got shot down by other forumers who have some knowledge. Of course, I'd like to hear from the super experienced duelers too, but in general I doubt they'd waste their time on such drivel.

But in regards to the idea, people aren't going to do the dirty work for something that is CLEARLY bad from the outset. And for ALL the reasons already mentioned. Neither of you understand breakpoints, minion AI, etc.

As to the point about secret powerful builds no one has thought up yet, well thats just malarky. You think no one has EVER tested Revive in a PvP setting since 1.10 came out? Foolishness on your part. This game has been out for over a decade, and just numerically there are not enough combinations of skills and points to still have some uber build no one has thought of laying around.

Most of your arguments are logical fallacies, such as your last statement. An experiment requires a hypothesis, empirical testing, and then comparison and conclusion to established results.

Many guides, or ideas, never get past the hypothesis stage because of previous work in the field, that clearly shows it as being unworkable. Common sense in other words.

Despite the FACT that Revive AI is terrible, and that teleporting minion stacks don't always fire all at once, or that minions don't lead targets, and that opponents MOVE, the two of you are for some reason googly eyed over this idea.

Whatever, I can't convince you, and I'm done wasting my time. If he builds it and wastes me, good for him, he'll have proven me wrong. To quote a hero of mine:

"I'm sure on some planet your fighting style is effective... but your weak link is, this is Earth..."

Mad Mantis

15-01-2009, 23:18

This thread is closed. The discussion, which was not very fruitful from the start, has degenerated into petty name calling and butting of heads. I'm all for discussion, but not in this way.