MF questions

[serendipity]

Hey guys! I had a couple of questions about MFing/glitching.

Does fk basically mean to glitch run?

Are glitch runs better to do than 300% mf runs? Are glitch runs only better for rares or are they good for uniques too?

What would be the easiest and most effective mfer. A orb sorc?

Should I have a nm andy/meph glitcher and a hell andy/mf glitcher or diablo glitcher?

Is there any single person out there who has moral problems with glitching? By the fact that it is a considered a "glitch" I could see why. I don't want to venture into anything that might even in the slightest bit be considered cheating.

What other suggestions/tips might you have for me as someone who wants to starting mfing/glitching/gfing?

What are the average costs of gull on USeastSCL? I want to get one. Would someone trade for something as little as a shard? I don't really know what to offer when I find someone with a gull for trade. I really need one to start mfing and a goldskin to start gfing (seriously). (I need to gold to start gambling.) As you can see, I do have patience for all this stuff and think it would be fun as well as rewarding even if I only get a few worthwhile items in dozens and dozens of runs. Basically, I want to earn my own items (not from someone else's mf or sheer luck, etc.)

Thanks a lot!

[Fists of War]

About the moral objections, I was just reading an old "LoD - the classic resolution patch", or something like that, thread.

There was some guy who was going crazy because he didn't like people str/dex glitching items. Then he challenged some guys to a duel and failed...so I guess he'd hate boss glitching as well.

But other than that, it's pretty much accepted.

I'd also like to know how normal MF runs compare to glitch runs.

[UberNoober]

On my glitcher/mfer orb sorc this is how it goes

NIGHTMARE

When i need uniques, i usually put as much MF gear i got
and MF superunique bosses like rakinshu,coldcrow etc...

Items:
3 topaz helm (gives 72% mf)
Full angelics (gives 140% mf)...(with full set, you also get like 25 res and other usefull mods)
3 dia kite shield
Chance guards (gives up to 40% mf)
Goldwrap (gives 30% mf)
Rare boot with Run/walk Lr, Fr, (gives 20% mf)

These are the items i use to MF nightmare, because you can rest asured that no mob of monsters will kill you while u MF. Therefore, i value MF over Def, Res, Block, and overall survivability.

I was looking for a gull one day, and no1 wanted to sell me 1, so i said to myself, ill just MF one with crappy equips. I slapped on angelic ammy, and the rings and the armor and BAM 100mf. I then searched for the saber because i had nothing better to use, and when i put it on i was like..... wow i didnt know that i get all these mods from angelics. Overall I would value the angelic saber over gull since it not only gives 40% mf it also gives good res and good other mods, AND its MUCH MUCH cheaper.

HELL

In hell i am currently glithed to andy, and meph.
I glitch these bosses with the least possible MF i can get since i receive quest drops every time. In hell, i would value Survivability over mf (which is useless because you want godly rares in classic!). I have NOT tried to MF hell andy in order to get a soj because i believe if i glitch i will be able to get rares worth 1+ soj faster.

Irathas is the key for a meph glitcher

My items are

Irathas helm
Irathas ammy
Shard
Twitch
Irathas belt
Irathas gloves
Rare boots with run/walk FR, Lr, and 20% mf (only MF i got)
3 P dia shield :yes:

This is a link to why Irathas is so awsome and has a bit of info on the famous iratha sorc
http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-696525.html

If you did not know, to glitch andy and meph at the same time is simply just
1. Make a hell game
2. Kill andy (and get quest...)
3.Talk to warrive ONLY
4. Go to act 2
5. Leave game to make sure your glitched

After that, get to a3 and do the virgin glitch to meph which is basicly entering hell games with meph quest unable to be attained. and thats it you can glitch andy/meph and go to NM and MF for uniques.

ooo and the skills

@ lvl 60 with 69 skills (10 from skill quests)

20 orb
16 mastery
20 teleport
6 static field (some people put more points)
6 in prereq
1 in frozen armor

The reason i have lvl 20 teleport is to make the game less stressful and MUCH easier. you do enough damage to kill everything, so you do NOT need points in frozen bolt. Teleporting is basicly all you do when your a sorc, 80% of the time your on the character your teleporting. After you find the boss, its only a matter of seconds before killing. For cold immunes, use static to lower them to as low as u possibly can, then use telekinesis to finish them off (only doesnt work on sies in hell because he recovers so fast). I was surprised how easy it is lol. Bosses just LOVE it when you static them :wink:.

This sorc is made up of the CHEAPEST items so you can be on your way to D2riches with a cheap yet fully functional Mfer/Glitcher!
Anyway i think thats all the information you need to make the sorc. If i forgot something or you need to know something, feel free to ask...
And ill be honest.. i got no idea what FKing is :crazyeyes:

-Uber

[Fists of War]

Just a few questions:

Is more MF when normal MFing good in classic? ie Does it get you more uniques, or more rares?

Is nm andy worth doing (I can currently glitch her with 120% MF)?

[HegemonKhan]

mf'ing....sighs...let's see if i can cover everything:
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EVERYTHING U WANNA KNOW ABOUT DROPS AND THUS MF'ING:

(though it's highly technical, so good luck, i can barely understand most of it myself)

http://diablo2.diablowiki.net/Item_Generation_Tutorial
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according to the above link:

there's 4 types of drops: (this is taken from the above link. all credit goes to it

norm:

TreasureClass1: TC of normal monster in Normal difficulty.
TreasureClass2: TC of champion monster in Normal difficulty.
TreasureClass3: TC of unique monster in Normal difficulty (non-quest drop).
TreasureClass4: TC of unique monster in Normal difficulty (quest drop).

nm:

TreasureClass1(N): TC of normal monster in Nightmare difficulty.
TreasureClass2(N): TC of champion monster in Nightmare difficulty.
TreasureClass3(N): TC of unique monster in Nightmare difficulty (non-quest drop).
TreasureClass4(N): TC of unique monster in Nightmare difficulty (quest drop).

hell:

TreasureClass1(H): TC of normal monster in Hell difficulty.
TreasureClass2(H): TC of champion monster in Hell difficulty.
TreasureClass3(H): TC of unique monster in Hell difficulty (non-quest drop).
TreasureClass4(H): TC of unique monster in Hell difficulty (quest drop).

the 4th type is the "glitch drop" (actually called quest drop)

(actually it's called a quest drop, but glitching is the term used for being able to do the quest drop over and over again. usually-normally a quest drop is only suppose to be able to be done once with that character per difficulty. so glitching has become more well-known than a quest drop. probably most people have no idea what a quest drop is)

TreasureClass4(*) column is filled only for Act Bosses. When you kill them, completing their quest, it means at very first time at this difficulty, they drop from TreasureClass4(*) TC. After that they drop from TreasureClass3(*) TC, that usually has slightly worse chances of good items.

glitching is a way around this ^^^

i can't find where i read-found the explanation for this... if anyone can let me know.

basically, the 4th type (the glitched quest monster quest drops), means that the no drop chance is least of all which is why u'll get nearly all rares (with no or little mf) and with more mf more of a chance of all uniques. anyone who does hell diablo runs and has diablo get killed by a person who has NOT completed hell diablo quest (non-"baroned") knows that nearly all rares will drop. number of drops depend on # of players in game and......
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u actually get MORE drops when in a party and they are within 2 screens which u can see below: (taken from the link again)

Drops, however, are not the same. When you kill a monster in a multiplayer game, the game calculates a number to use as the nodrop exponent. This is not simply N.

It counts 1 for you, the killing player.
It counts 1 more for each player that is (a) partied with you and (b) within two screens of you.
It counts 0.5 for each other player, either unpartied or far away.
It rounds the final total down.
So, if you sneak into a full public game on the realms and don't party up but go MFing on your own, you actually only get a nodrop exponent of 4 (1 for you, 3 for the 7 unpartied players rounded down), while the other partied guys are getting an exponent of 7 (7 people in their party, and you rounded down to 0). Even though all of you are killing p8 monsters with their 4.5x HP. It is one of Blizzard's many measures to encourage party play.
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andarial bug: *The bug was fixed on the realms, but persists in single player.*

In patch 1.10 there is interesting bug. After you kill Andariel and talk to any NPC (as most players do), she begins to drop items from her quest TC after every following kill.
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gambling: (taken from the same link again)

ilvl = clvl + rnd[10] - 5
(i.e. from clvl-5 to clvl+4)

The chances for every quality are:

Unique: 1/2000
Set: 1/1000
Rare: 1/10
Magical: 1797/2000

exceptional = 1 + (ilvl - excep qlvl) * 90 / 100
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shops (NOT gambling though): again taken from above link

All items at shops have ilvl=clvl+5. In normal difficulty there is ilvl caps for every Act:

12 for act 1
20 for act 2
28 for act 3
36 for act 4
45 for act 5.

In Nightmare and Hell item levels are not capped.

After the game has calculated ilvl it selects item types to spawn using fallowing algorithm. All ilvl>=25 items will spawn with magic quality
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glitching, at least to me and i think this site as well and to bnet, is NOT cheating.

this is because:

glitching is playing exactly how the game's mechanics' work but requires you to have this knowledge of how d2 works.

glitching is joining or having a game created by a characcter who has alredy completed the quest that u wanna glitch (let's say hell diablo. the maker's character of the game has teh baron/baroness title meaning that they completed the hell diablo last quest and it's greyed out). u than have a character who hasn't completed hell diablo quest (NOT baroned/baroness'ed) join the game. u should know that this character is unable to complete the hell diablo quest. this lets u do the quest for the quest drop over and over. able to do this quest drop over and over is called glitching. this character than kills hell diablo producing the quest drop (the 4th and best type of drop. it's only for act bosses) much to everyones delight as they scramble to pick up the rares:P

u and everyone run again and again until you're rich with godly rares (or whoever picks up the drops)
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1. the more mf the better

if your only killing 1 monster (for example: boss runs), more mf is still very important, but it's only being used for that 1 monster. and also as a super unique it has the best chance of quality drops compared to the worst type, a normal monster. mf is less neccassary for super unique monsters than it is for normal monsters.

so more mf is more "helpful" for, if, or able to kill huge amounts of normal (white) monsters. i am NOT saying that more mf isn't helpful for single target monsters like act bosses. IT IS ! but even with 0 mf you'll get at least 1 item that is magical or better from an act boss. this is not so for normal monsters. so the lower the quality of the monster the "more useful" mf is. AND MF'ing many monsters with mf is more pleasing than single monsters. more monsters killed more mf'ed drops, though single super uniques still yield higher or more desired quality drops (sets, rares, uniques) than normal monsters do even though your killing a lot of them and only 1 super unique.

2. more mf vs killing speed (speed of travel movement + damage + speed of attack).

obviously 500 mf is pointless if it takes u 30 minutes to kill a single monster. and 0 mf is pointless even though u are killing 30 monsters in 1 minute. have to find the optimal efficiency by the balance between mf amount and kill speed
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glitching is getting the 4th and best type of drop. so obviously glitching is the best way to get good items.

glitching does NOT need ANY mf for rares. if u want uniques than u need mf with the glitching.

what u glitch depends on what u want:

1. godly rares: glitching hell diablo runs, hell cow king
2. good rares: glitching hell andy and meph, nm cow king
3. decent rares: glitching nm andy, meph, diablo, norm cow king
4. "upper" uniques: glitching nm or hell andy or meph or diablo, nm or hell cow king
5. "lower" uniques: glitching norm or nm andy or meph or diablo, norm or nm cow king
6. "lowest" uniques or sets: norm andy and cow king
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GULL:

where gull can NOT drop:

norm corpsefire
norm bishibish
norm bloodraven
norm bonebreaker

extremely bad odds of getting gulls but happens from time to time (u could get lucky):

1. norm rakan (whatver his name the lit enchanted fallen gaurding the stones)
2. norm griswald (and maybe other special monsters in tristram, but not sure)

best odds for getting a gull:

1. norm coldcrow with 500 mf and 8 players: ~1/200 chance
2. norm glitched andy with 500 mf and 8 players: ~1/200 chance

coldcrow: a green colored dark archer in the cave level ONE in the cold plains

(in the cold plains the road has 4 paths: 1 to blood moor. 1 to stony field. 1 to buriel grounds-blood raven. 1 to the cave-coldcrow. so folow the road. it might take u 4 tries until u find the road path that leads to the cave. its like the arcane sanctuary in this regard)

(after u do a few coldcrow runs... u should learn the cave layout. it only generates a few types of cave layouts and u'll get to know them and be able to run them very very very fast with a FCR teleport sorc....TEMP BAN WARNING! i can personally confirm this:P)
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i my self do NOT know what FK stands for....

FK: fast kill ?
FK: fireball kill ?
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see this link for mf gear combos:

http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=695975

scroll down a bit for my mf rankings of gear combos (i list the top ~6 mf amount gear combos, from max mf of 525 and on down)
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i'm pretty sure andy and meph are vulnerable-weak to fire so fireball sorc would be better than bliz or orb sorc

best mf'er+rush'er+kill'er: sorc with 20 teleport. 100 str and 51 dex. rest into vit.

100 str lets u wear silks (for kill'ing), tanc armor (for mf'ing), darkglow or goldskin or twitch or whatever armor (for rush'ing)

51 dex lets u use shard for (rush'ing and due to higher FCR, kill'ing too)

20 teleport is very very very convenient for rushing or mf running

fire or ice-cold

1. fire: (i'm pretty sure andy and meph are weak to fire)

20 fireball, 20 meteor, 20 fire mast, 20 teleport, rest into warth. 1 pt static. optional 1 pt into shiver armor.

firewall is probably VERY viable too

20 firewall, 20 fire mast, 20 teleport, 20 warmth. 1 pt static. optional 1 pt into shiver armor. rest of pts into whatever.

2. ice-cold

orb sorc: 20 orb, 20 ice bolt, 20 cold mast, 20 teleport, rest into warmth. 1 pt static. optional 1 pt into shiver armor.

bliz sorc: 20 bliz, 20 ice BLAST, 20 cold mast, 20 teleport, rest into warmth. 1 pt static. optional 1 pt into shiver armor.
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SOJ:

1. norm diablo "CAN" drop every (including soj) unique in the game.

2. nm andy can NOT drop soj in classic (classic's hardcoded mlvl of act bosses are different than LOD's hardcoded mlvl of act bosses)

3. however, unique monsters (+3 mlvl) in cat 4, CAN drop sojs.

4. andy is rumored (not confirmed at all to my knowledge) to be more likely to drop jewelry (rings and amulets) than any other monster, which, if true, means she's the best for sojs

5. so in classic if #4 is true, that means hell andarial is the best source for sojs.

6. nm meph, nm diablo, hell meph, and hell diablo CAN also drop sojs.

glitched hell andy with as much mf as u can is the best source for sojs in classic if #4 is true.

why sojs are so uncommon:

1. first u have to kill a monster that can drop a soj. (depends on area level and monster lvl and soj's ?lvl of 39 and TC's of the monster)

2. the game must than select the ring item type for 1 or more of its drops (completely random. need LUCK here) (andarial is rumored to select rings and amulets more often than any other monster)

3. the game must than select the unique quality level for that ring item type (this is based on your mf)

4. finally *AFTER* u met all the previous requirements u now have these odds of getting a soj:

3 unique rings: soj, manald, nagel: 1/3 = 33%

unfortunately the 3 rings are NOT "weighed" evenly (well the soj is NOT anyways)

16/33 chance for it being the nagel unique ring

16/33 chance for it being the manald unique ring

1/33 chance for it being the soj unique ring

ugnh! hopefully u now see clearly why sojs are so uncommon

[serendipity]

Thanks a lot guys! Wow, so many people use the word "fk" but doesn't seem like a lot of people know what it means lol. I think I messed up my sorc. I'm level 58 and I have only one point into teleport so far. If I wanna glitch hell andy/meph, I prob won't have enough into teleport. Should I restart, or should i be okay? I guess I could make this my regular mfer.

One more question: Is a glitcher with the same mf as a regular mfer going to get more or less uniques? (I know there will be more rares with a glitcher.)

Thanks!

[Fists of War]

Whoh, thanks for the (big) post, I got a lot out of it.
Mostly for my own sake ... this is the most relevant stuff:

For rares (glitched without MF, or normal with MF):
#1 Hell Diablo
#2 Hell Meph
#3 Hell Andy
#4 NM Diablo
#5 NM Meph
#6 NM Andy

For SoJ's (glitched or normal with MF)
#1 Hell Andy

Also, one more question - you mention killing lot's of white monsters - where else other than CS is this viable? Is it even worthwhile in CS?

EDIT: Only ever seen fk used once or twice...I think it's probably just a shortened expletive, nothing more ;)

[rynke]

Whoh, thanks for the (big) post, I got a lot out of it.
Mostly for my own sake ... this is the most relevant stuff:

For rares (glitched without MF, or normal with MF):
#1 Hell Diablo
#2 Hell Meph
#3 Hell Andy
#4 NM Diablo
#5 NM Meph
#6 NM Andy

For SoJ's (glitched or normal with MF)
#1 Hell Andy

Also, one more question - you mention killing lot's of white monsters - where else other than CS is this viable? Is it even worthwhile in CS?

EDIT: Only ever seen fk used once or twice...I think it's probably just a shortened expletive, nothing more ;)

FK = First kill = quest drop etc etc

[HegemonKhan]

fists of war:

i'm just saying that the high mf results is more visable when-if u can kill lots of normal (white colored named monsters).

high mf on act bosses or other super unique monsters ALSO have visable results though the results are already improved from them being act bosses or super uniques. on act bosses even with ZERO mf the game WILL drop a blue (magical) quality item or better.

anywhere that has tons of normal monsters.

for godly rare weapons:

mercilous mod: 81-100% EDmg
kings mod: 81-100% EDmg + 0-150 (i think) AR

kings+mercilous= 162-200% EDmg (max EDmg possible for rares)

example: bh has ~60 max dmg (base weapon max dmg)

60 + (60 x 200% perfect kings and mercilous) = 60+120= 180 max dmg bh + 20 max dmg (perfect +max dmg) = 200 max dmg bh (best max phys dmg possible for a bh, excluding +elem dmg obviously)

(lorg ? or some one had this perfect max dmg bh posted in the 1.12 rare show-off thread)

kings mod (as been debated upon, but NOT confirmed):

can ONLY drop:

1. hell travincial special (NON-white named) council members (geleb, etc..)
2. hell doh3 (durance of hate 3 = meph area) special (NON-white named) council members (dragonmaffer? whatever his name, etc..)
3. hell act 4 first area (forgot its name, outisde town exit) to river of flame area (special monsters. starting from only super uniques to also uniques to also champions)
4. only in hell cs, can normal (white named) monsters drop items with the kings mod
5. the normal hell cow monsters have the same mlvl as hell cs normal monsters have (mlvl 78), so they should also be able to spawn the kings mod on the items they drop

i have yet to figure out about the blessed or holy (whatever it is) mod for armor (81-100 EDef)

hitting the super uniques and uniques of the lower areas of hell act 1 has the highest chance of dropping exceptionals (exe, mart, lance, bh, naga, etc..), but u can't get the best (kings+mercilous for chance at the max dmg of 200% on rares) mods for them

hell andy is nice but u don't get as good mods and thus items as u would nearer to hell cs.

in classic literally the closer u are to hell diablo the better the items u get.

another example is the titan mod for +20 str can't be spawned on item drops until hell act 4 (i think).

probably the best example is the +2 amulet. it can ONLY be spawned on dropped items from hell diablo. (the ONLY other method to get +2 amulet is gambling amulets from clvl 86-99)
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seren:

u don't technically need more than 1 sk pt into teleport, but it is SOOOOO much more convenient!!! that 20 sk pts into teleport makes your mf'er and/or rush'er sorc BETTER than if it only had 1 sk pt into teleport. but by putting 20 sk pts into teleport usually your sacrificing damage, and some people would rather have more damage and just deal with 1 teleport and chugging mana pots and don't mind the slowed down teleporting speed for rush or mf.

(u have to try 20 sk pts into teleport for only 5 mana cost compared to only 1 sk pt into teleport for ~20 mana cost, to understand the...convenience.. for yourself)
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i have NOT seen much difference in glitched drops compared to non-glitched drops for uniques. uniques seem to require mf in either case (glitched or non-glitched). however, glitched+mf yields far more uniques than non-glitched+mf. but of what i have obeserved: glitched=non-glitched in terms of amount of uniques are dropped.

uniques:

1. glitched = non-glitched (glitched might result in SLIGHTLY better chance of uniques but not significant enough to take notice)

2. glitched < non-glitched + mf

3. glitched + mf > non-glitched + mf

[rynke]

that means one can go do Hell cows instead of CS for the same items? except the 2 sk amulets from diablo?

and still get all the godly rares, even from the normal cows?

if thats the case - brb, making javazon \o/

[HegemonKhan]

(this could be wrong. it might only be for LOD, and not classic. i don't know)

HELL (NOT norm) cows have the same mlvl as HELL cs monsters, so they should be able to get the same mods (kings mod and whatever else), unless the area level is a factor and they (hell cow area lvl and hell cs area lvl) are different.

think "hell cow king must die!" too :D

hell cow king (super unique monster) will have better stuff than the normal (white named), champion (blue named), and unique (gold-yelow named) hell cows
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"quality level" of monsters:

worst (#1) on top and best (#5) on bottom of list

0. council members (normal and special ones): these might be special monsters with their own system

1. normal (white named): base mlvl
2. champion (blue named): +1 mlvl
3. unique (yelow-gold named, but random monster and location): +2 mlvl
4. super unique NON-act bosses: (white or yelow named, but always same monster and location): +3 mlvl
5. super unique act bosses: (white named, i think): hardcoded mlvls

can people please look this over and make sure it's correct. if it's not, let me know (by post) and i'll change the mistake(s).

[serendipity]

What is the average cost of a gull (on USEastSCL or on your realm)? Would I be able to trade a shard/twitch for it? Also which is more valuable, silks or gskin?

Finally, will I find traders for Pskulls? I have a few, but what are they worth? I just trade 3 Pskulls for a shard. They seem to have value but why?

Thanks!

[HegemonKhan]

i'd say:

gull=twitch=shard (twitch is slightly less value but close enough)

silks=gskin (they really are equal. both silks and goldskin are hard to come by. as for which is more valuable to u, it depends what u need-want more)

i wouldn't trade pskulls for shard.

to me pskulls=pgems

they souldn't be that popular, it's easy enough to make pskulls and the only use they have is for the soj socket cube recipe, but how often do people do that?

[Akse]

I do have some moral objections against glitching.. or more like I don't wanna run same bosses all over again. I rather find my items all around the act4 or something including diablo kill of course but as a Baron/King.

[HegemonKhan]

that's fine. personal morality, is different from "official morality, law, or policy" :D

i can understand how u can see "glitching" as "cheating", i'm jsut saying technically or "officially" it's not consdiered "cheating" or a breach of policy or law.

and i think most people agree with having to do the same run over and over and over and over, either for lvling...or item drops... as very irritating and boring

[WarlockCC]

I've found Glitching gives more cats in the bag. More broken promises.

More rares drop, but they are always less useful then the blue or green that might have dropped in their place had you not been glitching.
The few times you do find a great item, you would have found it too had you been hitting up Meph with a quested char.

[HegemonKhan]

thats true, it really depends what your looking for

glitching is good for rares

glitching+MF is good for uniques

MF is good for sets (greens) or magical (blues)
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glicthing does NOT give u better stuff, it jsut gives u better CHANCE of getting rares and uniques. whether or not those extra rares-uniques are good or not is determined by luck and area-monster and if u can pick the item(s) up before 7 of the otehr players do (hell diablo, in a full 8 player hell cs-diablo run game :P)

[serendipity]

Thanks Hegemon for the trade values. I have a couple more questions for the wise. (Maybe it would be good to just tell me everything you know about this subject -- relative values on shard, twitch, gull, silks, gskin, hotspurs, plain +2 ammy, gold) :thumbup:

But more specifically, so I could trade a twitch or shard for a gull?! I am amazed because I have 3 or 4 shards, I had 2 twitches at one time (now one) but I have no gulls, no gskin, no soj. Are gulls worth more or less than silks/gksin? Is buying relatively plain +2 ammy's for 500k a good trade? I never had any before I bought two from this guy for 1 mil. so I was excited. I hear that hotspurs are good, but why? For csing?

So glitching does not drop ALL rares all the time? It drops uniques and sets sometimes but never any whites, greys, or blues? Is it worthwhile to glitch nm if you can handle glitching hell, likewise is it worthwhile to mf nm if you can handle mfing hell?

Do your changes of finding an item double when you have 100%mf, triple when you have 200%mf and quadruple when you have 300%mf?

Thanks a lot, you have been a big help to me. (I may think of some more questions for you later :whistling:)

[HegemonKhan]

i actually don't know that much about this comparative value system, i'm actually jsut giving u my own opinion on it lol

there aren't that many gulls circulating, because most people don't understand or know that gulls are low items meaning u look for them in EARLY normal (aka act 1 normal) (norm coldcrow or norm glitched andy are best odds) (and some times can be found from tristram runs, from rakan at the stones and griswald and maybe random unique monsters in tristram, or even the dead cow bodies IN TRISTRAM....i think i got a gull once from them)

and the one's who know where/how to get gulls, probably jsut sell or ditch the extra ones they might get.

usually in the course of jsut playing d2, you'll definately come across a few twitches on your own, and if u do boss runs, you should get a few shards as well.

because of this usually twitches and shards are more common than gulls.

so i'll tentatively give this comparative heiracrhy:

*obviously this heirarchy probably changes from each person, so it's not that useful, but oh well*

easier (and thus cheap value) to find-get (#1)

1. hawkmail, vemonlord, (set item) berserker armor

2. rockfleece, rattle cage, boneflesh

3. twitch, shard

(u might come across one or the other slightly more than the other, but they are about the same in common-ness and value)

4. darkglow

5. gull, hotspurs, greyform, lenymo

6. silks, goldskin, heaven garb, (set item) tanc armor

7. blinkbat, iceblink

harder (and thus more in value) to find-get (#7)
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it's hard to recall all the items, so if u wanna know about any particular item that i haven't covered, post it and i'll try to put it into my heirarchy where i think it would go.
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ach!!! i re-read your post and u got a lot of questions.. lol...

let me try to answer them....

0. first off, trading is relative. it depends how much of a certain item u have and what items u don't have compared to the other person you are trading with, with what items he has and how many and what items he doesn't ahve.

for example:

since u don't have any gulls, gulls are valuable and your desperate for one. a person can take advantage of this. at the same time, a person can have a ton of gulls and to them they have no value. but maybe he doesn't have any shards and so shards are valueable to him and he's desparate for them. u can take advantage of him as well. let's say u have a ton of shards (err..u actually do lol), and u trade with this guy. u think your getting a great deal because your finally getting that gull and jsut giving away one of your cheap shards. u think your ripping him off. at the same time, he is finally getting that shard and just giving away one of his cheap gulls. he is thinking that he got a good deal and is ripping u off.

hopefully this gives some clarity to the relativeness of trading items and their "values".

1. u can definately trade gull-shard-twitch

2. some one who has much better +2 amulets (many mods on them), to them giving away amulet with jsut the +2 mod is probably no big deal to them. they obviously don't feel only +2 modding amulets have any value (since they have 10% FCR +2 prism-resists etc amulets). however, if a person has never even seen a +2 amulet they probably can't understand how some one would trade a +2 amulet to them jsut for gold in exchange. they'd think they are getting a great deal out of it...again it all goes to relativity.

3. about hotspurs, with 90% FR, fire damage can still do good damage to u and kill u. with 95% FR, your near immune to dying from fire damage. the only problem is that hotspurs has NO FWR. so its having 90% max FR and 30 FWR resists rare boots vs hotspur boots raising your max FR to 95% but NO FWR. (i really hate the no FWR on hotspurs....soooooo slow.....but if u need 95% FR, oh well, try to ignore the slowness :P). there is the nokozon amulet that will get u 95% FR too (i think), but usually u need the amulet spot for some other amulet (like iratha amulet for full iratha).

4A. usually glitching DOES drop all rares (unless u got high mf, than it's all or nearly all uniques). if all or nearly all rares don't drop...than the killer wasn't glitched, u didnt get a quest drop.

do hell diablo runs with 8 players in party and let a non-barroned character kill him and watch with sparkling eyes as 6 rares, 6 pretty yelow weapons and armors drop, knowing that hell diablo can drop all items and all mods, and be wishing that those rares ARE godly ones, and than the tears flow...as u don't even get a single RARE...everyone else got them first!!!! waaahhhhhhh, cries!!! i'd be lying to say this hasn't been my personal experience... :D ...whatever u do...don't ask them to show what they got... because if it is a godly rare...your now bawling.....soo close to having that godly yourself...but he picked it up instead and not u.... sobs loudly!!!

that's poetry!, i feel the emotion every time i read it ^^^^^^

4B. the WORST glitching (quest drop) can do is give u maybe 1 blue (magical) iitem and the rest of the items droped are rares in that single run-kill. i'd say 70-90% of the time its an ALL rares drop (unless u got high mf again..).

4C. hmm, usually i'm doing hell diablo glitched runs, and he hardly ever drops sets (green), so i don't know if it's different with other mosnters when gltiching.

4D. obviously if u can't do hell u can't do hell. that means your stuck with nm. pretty straight forward.

5. about the rest of your questions...i need to explain how the stuff works...since u don't know...
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item quality:

non-"magical" items:

(if u want these, than the LESS the mf (zero mf is best obviosuly) the better)

normal (white), socketed (grey)

"magical" items:

(if u want these, the MORE the mf the better (zero mf is BAD obviusly) )

lowest quality

magical (blue color name)...........| <-these 4 are ALL "magical" items
rare (yelow-gold color name).......| (don't confuse this with THE
set (green color name)...............| magical (blue) quality of "magical"
unique (bronze color name).........| items)

highest quality

it's easier (the % is larger) for magical (blue) than it is for unique (bronze).
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here's roughly how mf actually works:

lets take some made up item: HK's legendary sword (lol): HKLS

let's say that the best chance of a HKLS dropping is 1/1,000,000.

at ZERO mf there's no change. it is still 1/1,000,000.

at 500 mf there IS a change.

it is now (1/1,000,000) x 5 = 5/1,000,000 = 1/200,000

1/200,000 is much better than 1/1,000,000

but let's use simplier numbers:

let's say that teh HKLS is 1/100

(this is absurd!! the HKLS is the ultimate weapon it's odds would never be this low!!!)

anyways...(i'm having some fun with this:P)...

now lets take that 1/100 and have 500 mf

(1/100) x 5 = 5/100 = 1/20

1/20 is much better than 1/100

.05 is better than .01

most don't understand this about mf. they think that if they have 100 mf the chance of getting something is doubled. and 500 mf would be..err.. lets take 400 mf...they think it would be quadruptiled...(i forgot what 5 is called:P..pentrupled?). this is wrong.

now your saying .05 isn't that much better than .01 but this is deceiving.

first off it makes more sense to look at the ratios instead:

would u rather do 100 runs and only get 1 HKLS ???

or

would u rather do only 20 runs and only get 1 HKLS ??

obviously 20 runs is much much much nicer than 100 runs.
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but don't forgot to factor in kill speed or survivabilty with your MF'ing

its a BALANCING act between more mf and still being able to kill fast and do game runs fast and not die too. obviously characters-builds who use skills to kill (don't use-need weapons to kill) can more easily use more mf like a sorc for example, though survivability can still be challenging especially in hell difficulty.

(hell meph runs are still difficult even for a sorc with FULL mf gear. first u dont ahve FCR, meaning those dolls can phys hit u and u die, and u probably don't have enough resists too and all the spells being casted at u can kill u easy too).

(u'd probably have to sacrfice some mf, having 200 or 300 mf is still a good amount, u don't have to have max mf, so u can get some FCR or more resists)

[Lorg]

Hmzz in Eu ladder ->

Atleast for me the basic rule has been for ages that silk = gs = 1-1.5 gull And two gulls are 1 pair of hotspurs...

Furthermore 1 gull is around 150 ed exceptional weapon of any kind except bh and maybe martel.

At ladder starts Twich and shard raise in value because, while they are fairly common all want them fast to build their first mfer/rusher whatever. For some reason people are concidering shard = gull etc but imo its some sort of anomality. Shards are much more common. And what comes to hotspurs they are most certainly hardest to get of the items in question and therefore most valuable...

[HegemonKhan]

gulls don't drop often, but if u know what two monsters to do, u'll eventually get them...depending on your luck...

the secret to hotpsurs, is best: mf'ing normal cow king

and if normal andy can drop (i'm not sure if she can drop hotspurs or not), than mf glitched norm andy is good too (if not, maybe norm meph or diablo)

[serendipity]

Whoa, Iceblink, Blinkbats, Greyform, and Darkglow are worth that much? Or are you saying they are just rarer? Because I guess items can be rarer but not necessarily worth more (due to little demand). Because I have had many opportunities to trade for such items at I guess relatively low costs (if they are worth that much) but didn't because I didn't think it was worth it. Oh well, I will try to find the person who will trade a gull with me. I need the first gull so it's easier to find my own gulls from coldcrow lol.

Back to my original point, the reason I think gulls, silks, tarns, gskins, shards, and twitches are worth way more then the four dull armors is because they in much more demand. I can't believe I traded my tanc armor away (I don't think I got all THAT much for it). Well, I'll compile all my mfing gear and head to coldcrow (probably only amounts to 300%). How do you get 500%? Gull+Tanc armor/ammy, + Goldwrap + chancies + 3Ptopaz helm + 30 mf boots + 2 P nagels + mila shield only adds up to 430% I think.

Thanks a lot!

[Lorg]

Whoa, Iceblink, Blinkbats, Greyform, and Darkglow are worth that much? Or are you saying they are just rarer?

Back to my original point, the reason I think gulls, silks, tarns, gskins, shards, and twitches are worth way more then the four dull armors is because they in much more demand. I can't believe I traded my tanc armor away (I don't think I got all THAT much for it).

Thanks a lot!

Well only blinkbat of those has any value imo. Others can be traded vs variuos sigon parts or so.... Blinkbat is usually concidered as 2 gulls or a pair of hotspurs (atleast in euro)
Haven't ever seen a game where someone needs tancreds armor -> u did not loose very much :wink:

[WarlockCC]

Greyform is indeed hard to find, but the demand for it is rather low since CS IM damage was increased and the old CS barb recipe no longer works.
It really has niche applications now.

[HegemonKhan]

for coldcrow and andy and getting the gulls, u DO need mf, which kinda presents a problem, but u can get decent 100-300 mf pretty easily:

100 mf from angelic rings (50 mf each), armor, amulet

140? mf from angelic rings (50 mf each), armor, amulet, sword. (40? from set bonus)

50 mf rare (25) gloves and (25) boots

or if your lucky to have gotten-have goldwrap (30 mf), chance gloves (perfect is 40 or 50 mf. i think it's 40 though)

and if u really lucky tanc armor and amulet (78% mf on amulet).

u can also do arcana armor and amulet

and etc..

...(see my complete mf guide thread in the sticky: build guides and faq thread)....

so getting 100-300 mf is pretty easy.

of course less mf means you'll have to do more runs for a gull than say some one who already has 400 or 500 mf.

max mf (barb only of course): 525
max mf for non-barb: 445

80 mf difference between barb and non-barb. this is because the barb can have a 2nd gull for another 100 mf and a non-barb can only have the mila shield for another 20 mf. thats 80 mf difference between mila shield and a 2nd gull.
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and about my item comparisons, sorry for the confusion, it is mainly based on finding it, not the value of the item in terms of it's use.
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the problem with any drop (especially gulls, it seems), is that (for gulls for example) first coldcrow or andy has to select dagger type for its drops (more the better), THAN your mf has to kick in, aka, be successful on the first roll which is for unique, which would be a gull (gull=dagger type + unique quality).

your mf rolls first for the highest quality (unique). if it fails to get u an unique, it than rolls for a set. if it fails to get u a set, it rolls for a rare. if it fails to get u a rare it rolls for a magical. if it fails to get u a magical, it rolls for a socket. if it fails to get u a socket, it rolls for a normal. if it fails for normal, it rolls for the miscelnous stuff like gold or pots.

SO even with 500 mf, (more players in party AND within 2 screens of coldcrow or andy gives u MORE DROPS), you' hardly ever get a gull.

i have personally got soooo many rare daggers.....just can't get successful on the first roll for the unique, gulls....grrr
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and u really should look at my mf guide thread. it gives u the top ~6 mf gear combos for mf. very useful. but u have to scroll down a bit to find it. which maybe causes people to not know about it.

[HegemonKhan]

sorry for double post but ima post this stuff for seren (so he doesnt ahve to try to find it himself):

the link for my mf thread:

http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=695975
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here's the mf gear combos taken from the link above:

tanc set (green) armor and amulet + 3 socket (grey) hat

1. 525% mf = 3 perfect topaz socket-grey hat (72% mf), tanc amulet (with tanc armor) (78% mf), gull dagger (100% mf), tanc armor (0% mf), gull dagger (100% mf), chance guard gloves (40% mf), blue-magical ring (40% mf), goldwrap belt (30% mf), blue-magical ring (40% mf), rare-yelow or blue-magical boots (25% mf)

socketed rare (yelow) armor + magical (blue) amulet + 3 socket (grey) hat

2. 511% mf = 3 perfect topaz socket-grey hat (72% mf), blue-magical amulet (40% mf), gull dagger (100% mf), rare-yelow armor (with soj perfect topaz socket cube recipe) (24% mf), gull dagger (100% mf), chance guard gloves (40% mf), blue-magical ring (40% mf), goldwrap belt (30% mf), blue-magical ring (40% mf), rare-yelow or blue-magical boots (25% mf)

tanc set (green) armor and amulet + tarn unique (bronze) hat

3. 503% mf = tarn hat (50% mf), tanc amulet (with tanc armor) (78% mf), gull dagger (100% mf), tanc armor (0% mf), gull dagger (100% mf), chance guard gloves (40% mf), blue-magical ring (40% mf), goldwrap belt (30% mf), blue-magical ring (40% mf), rare-yelow or blue-magical boots (25% mf)

arcanna set (green) armor and amulet + 3 socket (grey) hat

4. 497% mf = 3 perfect topaz socket-grey hat (72% mf), arcanna amulet (with arcanna armor) (50% mf), gull dagger (100% mf), arcanna armor (0% mf), gull dagger (100% mf), chance guard gloves (40% mf), blue-magical ring (40% mf), goldwrap belt (30% mf), blue-magical ring (40% mf), rare-yelow or blue-magical boots (25% mf)

socketed rare (yelow) armor + 3 socket (grey) hat + vidala set (green) amulet and boots

5. 496% mf = 3 perfect topaz socket-grey hat (72% mf), vidala amulet (with vidala boots) (50% mf), gull dagger (100% mf), rare-yelow armor (with soj perfect topaz socket cube recipe) (24% mf), gull dagger (100% mf), chance guard gloves (40% mf), blue-magical ring (40% mf), goldwrap belt (30% mf), blue-magical ring (40% mf), vidala set boots (0% mf)

socketed rare (yelow) armor + magical (blue) amulet + tarn unique (bronze) hat

6. 489% mf = tarn hat (50% mf), blue-magical amulet (40% mf), gull dagger (100% mf), rare-yelow armor (with soj perfect topaz socket cube recipe) (24% mf), gull dagger (100% mf), chance guard gloves (40% mf), blue-magical ring (40% mf), goldwrap belt (30% mf), blue-magical ring (40% mf), rare-yelow or blue-magical boots (25% mf)

arcanna set (green) armor and amulet + tarn unique (bronze) hat

7. 475% mf = tarn hat (50% mf), arcanna amulet (with arcanna armor) (50% mf), gull dagger (100% mf), arcanna armor (0% mf), gull dagger (100% mf), chance guard gloves (40% mf), blue-magical ring (40% mf), goldwrap belt (30% mf), blue-magical ring (40% mf), rare-yelow or blue-magical boots (25% mf)

socketed rare (yelow) armor + tarn unique (bronze) hat + vidala set (green) amulet and boots

8. 468% mf = tarn hat (50% mf), vidala amulet (with vidala boots) (50% mf), gull dagger (100% mf), rare-yelow armor (with soj perfect topaz socket cube recipe) (24% mf), gull dagger (100% mf), chance guard gloves (40% mf), blue-magical ring (40% mf), goldwrap belt (30% mf), blue-magical ring (40% mf), vidala set boots (0% mf)

angelic set (green) armor and amulet and rings + 3 socket (grey) hat

9. 467% mf = 3 perfect topaz socket-grey hat (72% mf), angelic amulet (with angelic armor and rings) (0% mf), gull dagger (100% mf), angelic armor (with angelic rings and amulet) (0% mf), gull dagger (100% mf), chance guard gloves (40% mf), angelic ring (with angelic armor and amulet) (50% mf), goldwrap belt (30% mf), angelic ring (with angelic armor and amulet) (50% mf), rare-yelow or blue-magical boots (25% mf)

angelic set (green) armor and amulet and rings + tarn unique (green) hat

10. 439% mf = tarn hat (50% mf), angelic amulet (with angelic armor and rings) (0% mf), gull dagger (100% mf), angelic armor (with angelic rings and amulet) (0% mf), gull dagger (100% mf), chance guard gloves (40% mf), angelic ring (with angelic armor and amulet) (50% mf), goldwrap belt (30% mf), angelic ring (with angelic armor and amulet) (50% mf), rare-yelow or blue-magical boots (25% mf)

11. and more gear combos....

*ach sorry i forgot to tell about using the sig armor and shield and boots vs milabrega shield for non-barbs...but i'm too tired now. sorry
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if u not using a barb, just replace the 2nd gull with a mila shield (hopeffuly u have mila shield) and subtract 80 mf from the mf amount on here for the gear combo u using for the mf amount u will have.

525% mf is max for a barb
445% mf is max for a non-barb

the 30-40 mf blue rings are near impossible to come across-find (they DO exist though), so most likely (and much more easily) u'll be using nagel (unique) rings. a perfect nagel is 30 mf.

also with 2 gulls on your barb, it's "impossible" to kill anything. but u can find item with 2 gulls.

only way to kill with 2 gulls: get enchanted by a sorc and fight monsters not fire immune. HOWEVER, those gulls have low durability and will break quickly and often.

a much better idea, is to use a powerful 1 handed weapon (like a bh) which will kill the stuff, and in the other hand a gull for its 100 mf. HOWEVER, that gull will still be used in the attack (like ww or frenzy or whatever combat skill), and break easily and often.

[serendipity]

Thanks for all your help guys! I need tanc armor though for mfing. Should/could I trade tanc ammy for tanc armor (I have like 4 tanc ammy's)? Darn, blinkbats seems really valuable, too bad I passed up on one of those trades. That could've have gotten me my gull I guess. I find it a little hard to believe though because I never see people asking for blinkbats (more twitch-askers). Sorry that this is kind of off topic for this thread: but can any of you answer (or confirm others' answers) my last two questions about realm switching and using two realms simultaneously (not at the same instant, but I mean have an account on each realm at the same time and be able to play on either realm) with two different CD-keys (would I get banned for this?). Thanks!

[serendipity]

Oh btw, so what IS your opinion on sig boots/shield/armor vs. mila shield? What do you think is the best mf gear for a non-barb (factoring in efficiency and survivability, not just max mf)? I was thinking angelic rings, ammy, 3Ptopaz helm, gull, sigs armor/shield/boots, goldwrap, chancies (392%). Or tanc armor/ammy, 3Ptopaz helm, mila shield, 25% mf boots, goldwrap, chancies, nagels, gull (425%). But i'd have to subtract about 110% off of each one because I don't have gull or perfect chancies/nagels (though they are almost perfect). What are your expert opinions guys? Thanks a lot!

[HegemonKhan]

u can have as many accounts as u want on 1 realm or all realms with just 1 cd-key. i presume with 2 cd-keys your policy-legally fine (since blizard likes this...u gave them more money for 2nd or 3rd cd keys...) to play at the same time should u have the means to. 1 cd key might get u banned if u play on 1 realm with 2 characters at same time. i'm not sure about cross realms.

some one said i think that u can use the same acount name or character name on more than 1 realm, which should (i'm guessing. make sure u find out for reals or not) mean that u should be fine across realms.
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for any weapon user, angelic is the way to go and this is why:

angelic: ring, ring, amulet, armor

100 mf, massive AR, +75 life, +1 skill, and some other mods

though having to use angelic armor is kinda annoying...so many other better armors out there that u'd like to use instead...but usually u need the AR, and angelic is a way to get both 100 mf and massive AR + its other mods-bonuses.
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it's not an opinion, its just adding up the mf and seeing which has more mf and which has less mf.

i'm too lazy right now to do any more mf gear combos, i'm not gonna do all the calculating for the 3 sig items vs mila shield. too lazy right now... u can if u want to...just folow all my other gear combos if u don't know what or how to do it.
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what mf gear or gear to use depends on the character and what your needs are.

also take note what gear provides what like for example: if u really need +1 skill, it be better to use tarn, cuz it gives the +1 skill and mf, even though its less mf than the 3 p topaz hat, u get +1 as replacement.

[Lorg]

Darn, blinkbats seems really valuable, too bad I passed up on one of those trades. That could've have gotten me my gull I guess. I find it a little hard to believe though because I never see people asking for blinkbats (more twitch-askers). Thanks!

Bats is worth 2 gulls. It has niche uses thought. One isfor nvn = avesome fhr + speed. The other is 30 vl lld barb atleast my 30 lv bvb has it on switch since most of the time you are hostiled to nonbarbs aswell. Besides, vs the barbs i encounter @ 30 lv i do need to wear whole def bvb gear. The 99-163 dmg bh is enough ^^
My 30 lv bvb barb can be turned into a reasonably fast for its level by using blink, 30 frw boots (gobs not so necessary in lld as hp pool on opponents, especially on non-barbs, is so low. Same with lame shield ofc -> does not bleed that much at so low level) And irathas... COncidering that at low levels sorcs cant tele around like mad due to mana problems...

[Akse]

I add some more stuff about the glitch thing..

The thing that bothers me is that blizzard tried to remove MF running the bosses by giving them good loot only for the quest and now people exploit it probably even more than before :)

Seems like this D2 is really hard to fix and more and more holes are found all the time :)

[fledgeling]

I dont know about ladder, but on NL many speeders use blinkbat form

[Freyr]

I've been running Treshsocket and Elderith(sp?) act 5 Hell with no probs with a IM King WW Barb(No chest grrr, its what I'm MF running for) and reading this I'm wondering if I shoud run Andy instead, she would be a cake walk and I could players 8 her, would she be better on players 8 then Tresh and that other joker? Also Pindle as well, but again I have to run these 3 on Players 1. My MF is 308 with all my charms conslidated from all my characters and a Gheed's Fortune, I could push it to 350 with rings if needed.

[Fists of War]

I've been running Treshsocket and Elderith(sp?) act 5 Hell with no probs with a IM King WW Barb(No chest grrr, its what I'm MF running for) and reading this I'm wondering if I shoud run Andy instead, she would be a cake walk and I could players 8 her, would she be better on players 8 then Tresh and that other joker? Also Pindle as well, but again I have to run these 3 on Players 1. My MF is 308 with all my charms conslidated from all my characters and a Gheed's Fortune, I could push it to 350 with rings if needed.
Wrong forum. Post in the barbarian forum instead.