View Full Version : Shadow Master sucks!
schnelltot
18-12-2008, 06:23
I had heard many great things about the Shadow Master, but I'm awfully disappointed with her.
I have a level 85 Natalya striker. My SM after plus skills is level 19. Now I know the crucial level was 17, because that's the last level she gets an extra rare item, so I surpassed it that much. Her life at 19 is 1391. She sucks for these reasons:
1) Dies too quickly! Even with almost 1400 health, and this is in single-player Hell games. If she gets swamped by just about any minion pack, she doesn't last long. I have to jump in there to save her.
2) Lousy damage. Unlike the Valkyrie, the SM gets no damage bonus, only attack rating. And since claws are relatively low damage to begin with...you see how effective it turns out. She can take out the little fallen guys outside the rogue camp fairly quickly, but after that she struggles. Of course she uses skills like Blades of Ice and sets some traps, but they hardly make up for it.
3) Slow attack speed. Well, compared with me. With Burst of Speed, I'm all slash-slash-slash-slash through enemies. Her, she's slash...slash...slash...and since her damage sucks already, it doesn't add up to much.
So, SM was a waste. A distraction for other enemies at best, but it's annoying when you have to re-cast her so much.
The Valkyrie is way superior.
AnimeCraze
18-12-2008, 08:01
It can't be any worse than clay golem recasting. Just hotkey it and use it as a enemy detection system. The only draw back looking at it that way is that shadows have a 6 second delay, unlike clay golems.
Shadow Master is without a doubt the most overrated minion in the game.
=/ sounds like you aren't playing her right. Mobs should hardly attack with CoS up and MB coverting. You didn't mention a merc or Death Sentry, so I'm assuming you aren't using them? If not, you should; they're useful.
I think you're trying to make the Master tank and kill everything for you, and that's not going to happen ;) I think only a decked out Grizzly or Valk can do that, and even then they aren't very good.
schnelltot
18-12-2008, 17:06
I don't use CoS or MB; I'm not into stealth tactics. Stealth tactics like that just make the gameplay feel like it's dragging. I prefer running into a crowd with guns (er, claws) blazing. I like aggrssive playing styles. Also, MB is lousy because 1) the stun length is too short and 2) converted enemies are just an annoyance and you have to wait for it to clear before finishing them off.
I also never play with mercs because they too die easy and it costs too much to revive them. That's why I like castable minions because the only thing I ever need is mana.
For that matter, I guess I don't like having a minion if it's not a Valkyrie. It's a pain feeling like you have to watch out and babysit for someone else; I like just worrying about myself.
It's not that I expect the SM to be able to kill things in one or two hits, but she needs to deal *some* respectable damage. Again, the Valkyrie and Grizzly both dish out good damage when maxed out. In comparison, the SM might as well just be there for looks.
TopHatCat64
18-12-2008, 17:11
I don't use CoS or MB; I'm not into stealth tactics. Stealth tactics like that just make the gameplay feel like it's dragging. I prefer running into a crowd with guns (er, claws) blazing. I like aggrssive playing styles.
CoS doesn't hinder that in the least, you still run in and attack like crazy, its just that now monsters aren't attacking you.
schnelltot
18-12-2008, 17:31
Well, they always fight back when confronted anyway, right? That's what I recall when I used it a couple of times. It didn't seem to make a big difference.
TopHatCat64
18-12-2008, 17:37
Well, they always fight back when confronted anyway, right? That's what I recall when I used it a couple of times. It didn't seem to make a big difference.
Sure in melee range the monsters can see you, but its just the small clump you're facing. Everyone else stops shooting and stops running towards you. You end up taking a lot of less damage because you aren't getting 50 arrows shot at you and don't have to take on every melee monster on the screen at once.
From what it sounds like, you don't like sins. If you want a valk and the ability to shoot out in the open really fast, play a zon O.o
schnelltot
18-12-2008, 17:47
Uh, no, I really like Sins. I wouldn't take the character this far if I didn't. That doesn't mean I don't think a couple of her skills are overrated, mostly just SM, CoS and MB.
The Martial Arts skills, BoS, Venom, Death Sentry, Blade Fury...those all kick ***.
MB isn't overrated though; it's just not as effective in PvM depending on your style. In PvP, it's all that and a bag of chips.
jakotaco
18-12-2008, 20:49
Well, when I used to fool around with my widowmaker/venomsin in public duel games I was always impressed of what the shadowmaster could accomplish. High had focused quite a lot into shadow skills so she was in her high thirties or low forties something. Can't really remember. But she slaughtered casters, there was a time when the shadow singlehandedly forced a lvl 95 javazon to town. And she did that same thing to a few level 90+ sorceresses aswell...
In a pvp situation having a tank that gets elementally immune and stuns on a regular basis is by no means overrated. But for pvm you're mostly just looking at a monster distraction.
For a MA sin you're supposed to go close up yourself anyway, so a shadow is less useful then it would be to a trapper or similar.
Angelbound
19-12-2008, 03:02
Im not trying to hijack your thread but since kijya said that shadow master might interfere with a ma build, what do you think of a shadow warrior with a phoenix strike/dragon claw build?
I had heard many great things about the Shadow Master, but I'm awfully disappointed with her.
I have a level 85 Natalya striker. My SM after plus skills is level 19. Now I know the crucial level was 17, because that's the last level she gets an extra rare item, so I surpassed it that much. Her life at 19 is 1391. She sucks for these reasons:
1) Dies too quickly! Even with almost 1400 health, and this is in single-player Hell games. If she gets swamped by just about any minion pack, she doesn't last long. I have to jump in there to save her.
2) Lousy damage. Unlike the Valkyrie, the SM gets no damage bonus, only attack rating. And since claws are relatively low damage to begin with...you see how effective it turns out. She can take out the little fallen guys outside the rogue camp fairly quickly, but after that she struggles. Of course she uses skills like Blades of Ice and sets some traps, but they hardly make up for it.
3) Slow attack speed. Well, compared with me. With Burst of Speed, I'm all slash-slash-slash-slash through enemies. Her, she's slash...slash...slash...and since her damage sucks already, it doesn't add up to much.
So, SM was a waste. A distraction for other enemies at best, but it's annoying when you have to re-cast her so much.
The Valkyrie is way superior.
You suck!
Shadow Master is without a doubt the most overrated minion in the game.
You without a doubt suck.
Ooooooh, you hurt my feelings. :p
The only thing a Shadow Master does is draw unwanted attention from groups on the edge of the screen, and generally be annoying. She can't kill anything, she hardly ever tanks anything because she is too busy Dragon Flighting away to packs you are not and she always converts minions at times you really don't want to.
So no, you suck. Do everyone a favor and crawl back in the hole you came from. :)
sunflowersmooth
21-12-2008, 12:50
Ooooooh, you hurt my feelings. :p
The only thing a Shadow Master does is draw unwanted attention from groups on the edge of the screen, and generally be annoying. She can't kill anything, she hardly ever tanks anything because she is too busy Dragon Flighting away to packs you are not and she always converts minions at times you really don't want to.
So no, you suck. Do everyone a favor and crawl back in the hole you came from. :)
This has been an interesting thread, I was debating how many points to invest in SM and a pvm hc trapper and I've now decided on just one hard point.
Edit: Wow, I just got into hell, and the SM dies so quickly it is crazy. Even as a distraction it is very lacking. Maybe it is because the skill level is 3. If it would 17 maybe it would not be so pathetic...
Kalkanor
21-12-2008, 15:38
i find dat SM is very good
nd she kills fast nuf (sometimes faster than me:P)
TopHatCat64
21-12-2008, 16:34
This has been an interesting thread, I was debating how many points to invest in SM and a pvm hc trapper and I've now decided on just one hard point.
Edit: Wow, I just got into hell, and the SM dies so quickly it is crazy. Even as a distraction it is very lacking. Maybe it is because the skill level is 3. If it would 17 maybe it would not be so pathetic...
Yeah, Shadow Master isn't a really one point wonder. Like Valkyrie, SM benefits greatly from higher levels since they get more resist all, more life, better eq, etc. At lvl 3 she only has 488 life.
AnimeCraze
21-12-2008, 17:27
Edit: Wow, I just got into hell, and the SM dies so quickly it is crazy. Even as a distraction it is very lacking. Maybe it is because the skill level is 3. If it would 17 maybe it would not be so pathetic...Get 2x shadow claw. It lasts longer at lvl 7. NM Anya sell those things if you are of a high enough lvl. (it was either 67 or 72) She still dies, but not as much. And really, you are just hoping that she cast MB at the right time.
sevencreature
21-12-2008, 18:11
Well, in PvM SM can be handy as a one point wonder for specialized tasks - bomb defusing (at Nihlathak's little den of secrets)... I guess. I never liked SM too much, for my Phoenix Striker, nothing was more annoying then combo interrupted because of converted enemies, my Kicker doesn't need any help and Trapper... well, nothing generally escapes from her MB barrage... I don't think Assassin with her superior crowd control really needs any minion in PvM, but that's just me.
A few comments:
(1.) It's true that the Shadow Master isn't as durable as a high-level Valkyrie, Grizzly or Clay Golem. It also doesn't do as much damage as a synergized Grizzly (or even a Valk, although the Valkyrie attacks so slowly that it, too, isn't that great offensively).
(2.) However, it is by far the most mobile of all the summonable minions of Diablo II (using Dragon Flight to teleport wildly all over the map, whether or not you really want it to), and that sort of makes up for the lack of combat persistence, also, the SM seems to have the most variable set of equipment of all the conjured minions. Maybe that would account for why one SM can be really useful and the next one isn't so good.
(3.) I'd agree that the SM is a minion that you really have to get to a decent level, to be even marginally effective in Hell. In my case, I have a lot of high-level (Hardcore) Assassins and, with prebuffing (e.g. +3 Shadow Discipline hat, amulet, 2 x claws, maybe a couple of other skill adders elsewhere), none of my Shadow Masters are below Level 30 (I think I have one that's Level 36 or so). I can personally attest to the fact that other than for unusual situations (e.g. Iron Maiden, act bosses, etc.), when you get your SM to Level 25+ or so, it very rarely dies, even in Hell. And it does kill things, although as I mentioned, this seems to be very dependent on what kind of gear it happens to spawn with.
(4.) You guys haven't mentioned the one real limitation of the Shadow Master, namely that it is absolutely not a good minion to bring along with you to Uber Tristam, where it would have a high chance of waking up all 3 of the Ubers simultaneously, due to its proclivity to DF and attack anything and everything in sight. (Use Shadow Warrior instead, even if you only have 1 point in it.)
In most other situations, I've come to like and appreciate my Shadow Master(s). They add quite a bit to the flexibility and firepower of my Assassins, for example by being able to set fire-based traps for a Trapper who's built mostly around LF and DS.
YMMV, but I'd still give this skill the full 20 hard points. I like minions that can take a few love-taps from the Frenzytaurs, while you beat a hasty retreat.
:whistling:
Cheers
Mr. Bill
sunflowersmooth
21-12-2008, 23:13
A few comments:
(1.) It's true that the Shadow Master isn't as durable as a high-level Valkyrie, Grizzly or Clay Golem. It also doesn't do as much damage as a synergized Grizzly (or even a Valk, although the Valkyrie attacks so slowly that it, too, isn't that great offensively).
(2.) However, it is by far the most mobile of all the summonable minions of Diablo II (using Dragon Flight to teleport wildly all over the map, whether or not you really want it to), and that sort of makes up for the lack of combat persistence, also, the SM seems to have the most variable set of equipment of all the conjured minions. Maybe that would account for why one SM can be really useful and the next one isn't so good.
(3.) I'd agree that the SM is a minion that you really have to get to a decent level, to be even marginally effective in Hell. In my case, I have a lot of high-level (Hardcore) Assassins and, with prebuffing (e.g. +3 Shadow Discipline hat, amulet, 2 x claws, maybe a couple of other skill adders elsewhere), none of my Shadow Masters are below Level 30 (I think I have one that's Level 36 or so). I can personally attest to the fact that other than for unusual situations (e.g. Iron Maiden, act bosses, etc.), when you get your SM to Level 25+ or so, it very rarely dies, even in Hell. And it does kill things, although as I mentioned, this seems to be very dependent on what kind of gear it happens to spawn with.
(4.) You guys haven't mentioned the one real limitation of the Shadow Master, namely that it is absolutely not a good minion to bring along with you to Uber Tristam, where it would have a high chance of waking up all 3 of the Ubers simultaneously, due to its proclivity to DF and attack anything and everything in sight. (Use Shadow Warrior instead, even if you only have 1 point in it.)
In most other situations, I've come to like and appreciate my Shadow Master(s). They add quite a bit to the flexibility and firepower of my Assassins, for example by being able to set fire-based traps for a Trapper who's built mostly around LF and DS.
YMMV, but I'd still give this skill the full 20 hard points. I like minions that can take a few love-taps from the Frenzytaurs, while you beat a hasty retreat.
:whistling:
Cheers
Mr. Bill
Does shadow minion spawn with new rares every time it is cast? Or does it it spawn with the same rares? Are these rares different than the rares of other SM?
Does shadow minion spawn with new rares every time it is cast? Or does it it spawn with the same rares? Are these rares different than the rares of other SM?All gear is freshly rolled at the time of cast.
In most other situations, I've come to like and appreciate my Shadow Master(s). They add quite a bit to the flexibility and firepower of my Assassins, for example by being able to set fire-based traps for a Trapper who's built mostly around LF and DS.
It's easier to spend those points in FB. Hoping for the SM to use the right type of element against the right type of monster is like hoping to win the lottery four times in a row.
sunflowersmooth
22-12-2008, 12:15
All gear is freshly rolled at the time of cast.
oh nice. Not to hijack your thread, but I'm playing HC and trying to decide between SM level and Sweb synergy, anyone have any opinions?
TheReadMenace
22-12-2008, 12:50
If you're building a trapper, shock web. Max all synergies and Fire Blast. The only tank you need is a merc. SM's MB will annoy you, and she's easily capable of overwriting your traps for her own. Go for max fire power, I say.
I'll admit it's a mobile minion, but that's usually the last thing I want. Valks are good 'cuz they stand still and tank. SMs jump from one enemy to the next, so if she DFs away to a new mob you never know when they're rushing her or you. And I really hate the unneeded MBs; waiting around so you don't get flanked by monsters you could have already killed makes an impatient guy like me mutter vile, slanderous things at the SM.
I vowed with my last 'sin to never use SM again. Even though I know nothing about them, I'll easily drop points into SW before SM.
sunflowersmooth
22-12-2008, 20:16
lol it's so great how opinions on SM reach extremes on both ends.
lol it's so great how opinions on SM reach extremes on both ends.Either you like the monsters not attacking as much, or you want them to attack I suppose =/
I just prefer they not attack as much.
<snip>I vowed with my last 'sin to never use SM again. Even though I know nothing about them, I'll easily drop points into SW before SM.
I think it really depends on your play style; if you want to be in total control of everything that your minions do all the time, then I can see your point, but personally I still think that on balance a fully tricked-out SM with ~18-20 hard points and prebuff is worth the investment and the uncertainty factor.
Yes, on occasion, her CoS will over-write yours, but keep in mind that yours (if you have more than one point in it) also has a casting delay so the net effect can be to get more CoS, not less. Also, there have been times (like when you're being flanked by Frenzytaurs that you didn't know about) where my SM's Mind Blast has saved my a**. I think the SM might fit a little less well into the plans of a melee Assassin than a trapper, but this is largely a matter of personal preference -- I can see valid opinions on both sides.
BTW, maybe I just missed it but nobody in this thread has pointed out the real annoying thing about the SM, namely that she seems to just go "poof" (vanishes) at random intervals and therefore has to be re-cast, more so than any other Diablo minion that I've seen (excluding Necro Revives which after all the rules clearly state have to stay in your close proximity). This is irritating if you're a "max prebuff" fan like me and it seems to only have a little to do if the SM is near to you; sometimes you'll be going around a corner, then you hear the "aaahh!" sound of the SM being killed / being re-summoned, and presto! She's gone back to the Shadow Realms! I think it's just a bug, but IMO it's more of a reason not to use this minion if you like uninterrupted, hack-and-slash style Diablo.
Cheers
Mr. Bill
Ooooooh, you hurt my feelings. :p
The only thing a Shadow Master does is draw unwanted attention from groups on the edge of the screen, and generally be annoying. She can't kill anything, she hardly ever tanks anything because she is too busy Dragon Flighting away to packs you are not and she always converts minions at times you really don't want to.
So no, you suck. Do everyone a favor and crawl back in the hole you came from. :)
And you need to crawl back to the hole you came from (what is it you young wipper snappers mf in nowadays, the den of evil?) and go mf more tal sets.
You've obviously never pvp'd or you'd know the importance of shadow master on an offensive teleporting assassin. Stay small scrub.
Does shadow minion spawn with new rares every time it is cast? Or does it it spawn with the same rares? Are these rares different than the rares of other SM?
1st
http://i487.photobucket.com/albums/rr233/Sludge22093/Screenshot230.jpg
2nd
http://i487.photobucket.com/albums/rr233/Sludge22093/Screenshot231.jpg
Master Zap
23-12-2008, 18:00
And you need to crawl back to the hole you came from (what is it you young wipper snappers mf in nowadays, the den of evil?) and go mf more tal sets.
You've obviously never pvp'd or you'd know the importance of shadow master on an offensive teleporting assassin. Stay small scrub.
1st
http://i487.photobucket.com/albums/rr233/Sludge22093/Screenshot230.jpg
2nd
http://i487.photobucket.com/albums/rr233/Sludge22093/Screenshot231.jpg
The personal insults are rather pointless and arent germane to the conversation on Shadows.The person your directing them has a valid opinion and tons of experience to boot. Take a look at some of his past posts, you'll find he's spot on with everything but the opinion and playstyle options that boil down to preference.
You like them, some don't. The responses here have been in both camps, so it's not a clear cut yes or no. Everyone has their own way of building.
I happen to like a shadow master and warrior. I usually end up with about 5-10 points in this and let plus skills do the rest. This would be on a MA oriented sin however. I use d-flight alot for fast movement, as such the minion stack is very nice.
ps , nice hack/cheat/mh or wtv you've got going in those screenshots. The claws pictured are certainly decent but it's nothing to write home about either imo. Compare to a Tucs/ jade or some of the rares and magic claws pictured in the show off thread. The First one is primo though :thumbup:
I'm sure they both know each other well :P
It seems the trap-based don't like them, but maybe MA do (well, the OP was the other way around...). IDK, I really like the MB, and even the conversions don't bother me so much, even if I'm about to finish a tri-charged tiger on someone and the master converts it. Usually, I'll turn, Tail another and then 3 things are waiting to kill the monster :P
And you need to crawl back to the hole you came from (what is it you young wipper snappers mf in nowadays, the den of evil?) and go mf more tal sets.
You've obviously never pvp'd or you'd know the importance of shadow master on an offensive teleporting assassin. Stay small scrub.
When was the last time you saw a Nat phoenix striker in PvP? Did you even read the opening post? Can you now try to make a minimal amount of sense in the context of the thread?
Told you you sucked. The proof is in the screenshots. :p
I don't use CoS or MB; I'm not into stealth tactics. Stealth tactics like that just make the gameplay feel like it's dragging. I prefer running into a crowd with guns (er, claws) blazing. I like aggrssive playing styles. Also, MB is lousy because 1) the stun length is too short and 2) converted enemies are just an annoyance and you have to wait for it to clear before finishing them off.
I also never play with mercs because they too die easy and it costs too much to revive them. That's why I like castable minions because the only thing I ever need is mana.
For that matter, I guess I don't like having a minion if it's not a Valkyrie. It's a pain feeling like you have to watch out and babysit for someone else; I like just worrying about myself.
It's not that I expect the SM to be able to kill things in one or two hits, but she needs to deal *some* respectable damage. Again, the Valkyrie and Grizzly both dish out good damage when maxed out. In comparison, the SM might as well just be there for looks. why are u playing an assassin then ?
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