Fury, stamina, mana.

[nicki]

I'm a litte lost here. u need fury to attack with skills? then what is the blue liquid thing on the gameplay video that keeps being filled without the barbarian doing anything?
Also on the skill tree it says some skill don't cost fury but on the pic for that skill it says it does.
And... why does it sometimes say smth costs stamina? or is it mana :S cuz the witch doctor uses mana, and that's not what the barbarian uses right?
I'm so confused with this. can somebody explain this?

[Keighvin]

The fury mechanic was not implemented in the WWI video apparently.
The descriptions and tooltips for the skills are not complete or final.
I believe stamina may have been considered than dropped.
And yes, the barb uses fury while the witch doctor and wizard use mana.

[nicki]

So what's the blue liquid thingy

[Cardy]

The blue liquid is mana, unless it's fury. Is fury a different color? Still confused? :jig:

[nicki]

No i mean the lighter blue liquid when playing as a barbarian. That's fury? It's being filled up without him doing anything, I thought you said you need to hit to make it increase.

[NioTumsSpik]

Yes but in teh gamplay video they made it so they couldent run out of fury, becouse they wanted to show of all teh skills fast and simple :P

and yes, yuo do need to hit things to fill up your fury

[nicki]

Okej. But what if you hit things with a skill which lets say takes 10 fury to do. do you get fury of that hit?

[Knight_Wolf]

I guess you fill Fury with Normal attacks ... Skills on the other hand deplete Fury .. that's the only way it makes sense.

[Cardy]

really did you read that anywhere? Only normal attacks refill fury? Interesting... not sure if that's true however. :jig: (god i love this little jig... OT i know... but thank you to whoever put it in!)

[Keighvin]

I haven't heard anything about how much, or whether skills gain, fury per hit.

[nicki]

In the gameplay video when the fury refilled itself, I actually thought that worked pretty good.
It better not take too many hits to fill it up otherwise it's kinda lame.

[Knight_Wolf]

In the gameplay video when the fury refilled itself, I actually thought that worked pretty good.
It better not take too many hits to fill it up otherwise it's kinda lame.

Nope, that was only for the WWI video, they cheated to make the demonstration easier, but Fury doesn't work like that at all, i mean they were spamming skills like crazy and if the actual game was like that it would be very lame.

Actually there are many ways to enhance how fast Fury fills up and ways to make it stay filled up for longer, read below and check the barbarian skills list on the site here.



really did you read that anywhere? Only normal attacks refill fury? Interesting... not sure if that's true however

From the D3 Wiki page here
http://diablowiki.net/Fury

" Fury is built up during combat; successfully hitting enemies fills up the Barbarian's Fury bulb, enabling him to use his most powerful skills, most of which cost some Fury to use. When the Barbarian is not fighting, or not hitting enemies, his Fury steadily fades away, until it drops to nothing several seconds after a battle.

Fury changes the Barbarian's play style, making it impossible for him to use his most powerful abilities at the start of a fight."

I guess that answers the questions about Fury, i mean it is kinda weird to think that attacking with skills fills Fury when fury is supposed to be a mana replacement ( i.e ... fuel for skills ), Now it is clear that it fills using normal attacks and depletes slowly when out of combat or when skills that cost Fury are used.

[nicki]

"When the Barbarian is not fighting, or not hitting enemies, his Fury steadily fades away, until it drops to nothing several seconds after a battle."


That I don't like at all. I like to take my time when I'm playing. Looking at stuff, comparing weapons etc. I don't like to feel stressed cuz my fury is running out. Would be so much better if the fury gained stays there until you use some skill that costs fury.

[konfeta]

If WoW is of any indication, the Fury meter fills up fast enough for that to be a non-issue.

[NioTumsSpik]

You will probebly also get fury when you are hit, if it works anyway like the warriors fury in WoW

[Teleportftw]

I much prefer mana, its one thing to have fury/rage in a game like WOW where fights take a while but to have to walk up and smack everything w/ a few melee hits before being able to do anything cool in diablo sounds IMO like its exceedingly likely to be lame.

[NioTumsSpik]

I much prefer mana, its one thing to have fury/rage in a game like WOW where fights take a while but to have to walk up and smack everything w/ a few melee hits before being able to do anything cool in diablo sounds IMO like its exceedingly likely to be lame.

well, fights in D3 will not be the same 1sec kills like they where in D2

[redrach]

I much prefer mana, its one thing to have fury/rage in a game like WOW where fights take a while but to have to walk up and smack everything w/ a few melee hits before being able to do anything cool in diablo sounds IMO like its exceedingly likely to be lame.
There are plenty of skills that don't require Fury. I believe that zero-Fury skills will be similar to the near-zero-mana-cost-with-mana-leech spells like Frenzy, Concentrate, etc. while skills that require substantial Fury will be similar to Warcry, Whirlwind (early game when you don't have mana leech) etc.
It's a good reason to use multiple skills.

[Teleportftw]

There are plenty of skills that don't require Fury. I believe that zero-Fury skills will be similar to the near-zero-mana-cost-with-mana-leech spells like Frenzy, Concentrate, etc. while skills that require substantial Fury will be similar to Warcry, Whirlwind (early game when you don't have mana leech) etc.
It's a good reason to use multiple skills.

how is this so awesomely better? diablo is a lot about fireworks and smoldering wrecks of enemies, walking up to every fight and having to put in ur 4-5 normal attacks just makes the class less badass. you don't notice it in the gameplay video because they have a hacked barb.

[konfeta]

It differentiates the Barbarian from mana using classes, makes using the barbarian more tactical, it makes the barbarian plain more interesting to play.

So what if you have to land a few normal attacks or get hit a few times before using some of the big skills? All this means is that you literally have unlimited "mana" as long as you are in the thick of it - I find that far more interesting than having a melee character being basically a short range caster.

Besides, the pace of WoW is likely to be far slower than in Diablo 3. Five hits? That's like killing two or three monsters and then wiping out an entire mob of them with a powerful ability. Also, some of the fury based skills speed up how fast you get fury by virtue of giving your crits, damage, attack speed, damage resistance, and healing. The more you kill, the more skills you can use, the faster you kill. the more skills you can use.

Start off slow and accelerate into an unstoppable killing machine - fits the Barbarian perfectly. Especially considering that leach might not even make it into this game and pots been neutered into back up as opposed to primary healing.

[Teleportftw]

It differentiates the Barbarian from mana using classes, makes using the barbarian more tactical, it makes the barbarian plain more interesting to play.

So what if you have to land a few normal attacks or get hit a few times before using some of the big skills? All this means is that you literally have unlimited "mana" as long as you are in the thick of it - I find that far more interesting than having a melee character being basically a short range caster.

Besides, the pace of WoW is likely to be far slower than in Diablo 3. Five hits? That's like killing two or three monsters and then wiping out an entire mob of them with a powerful ability. Also, some of the fury based skills speed up how fast you get fury by virtue of giving your crits, damage, attack speed, damage resistance, and healing. The more you kill, the more skills you can use, the faster you kill. the more skills you can use.

Start off slow and accelerate into an unstoppable killing machine - fits the Barbarian perfectly. Especially considering that leach might not even make it into this game and pots been neutered into back up as opposed to primary healing.

starting slow does not fit the barbarian at all, and it does not make a single thing more tactical. how is it more interesting to be required every fight to go up and do the lamest attack 4-5 times before doing anything cool as opposed to just unleashing pwn on the universe from the beginning. its not.

[Knight_Wolf]

diablo is a lot about fireworks and smoldering wrecks of enemies

Which is what exactly you will be doing as soon as you have enough Fury.


walking up to every fight and having to put in ur 4-5 normal attacks just makes the class less badass.

Normal attacks + Non-Fury costing abilities + if there is any Fury left from the previous fight it could be used too, All in all it is the same as having to wait for you mana to recharge or having to seek out mana globes, there isn't a grave difference, but rather than waiting you need to fight more, how is that less badass really !!!?

It also does make the barbarian quite unique, and makes the player more keen onto rushing the next mob as soon as possible and fighting non-stop, which is what the Barbarian is all about.


you don't notice it in the gameplay video because they have a hacked barb.

Gah, in the demo the people played the Barbarian wasn't hacked :whistling:



starting slow does not fit the barbarian at all, and it does not make a single thing more tactical. how is it more interesting to be required every fight to go up and do the lamest attack 4-5 times before doing anything cool as opposed to just unleashing pwn on the universe from the beginning. its not.

Unleashing pwn is also called spamming mindlessly, i would rather have something that requires some skill and thought rather than something that requires mashing mindlessly.

Actually when people come in here asking what is Fury i become sure that they don't know anything about the subject and didn't even bother to read about Fury and the Barbarian Skill trees in the D3 Wiki, there are many skills in the Barbarian Skill tree that enhance his Fury generation, keep it stacked for longer, generate some fury upon using certain specific attacks or upon inflicting critical damage, etc etc .. the whole Barbarian skill tree is built around Fury and the different ways it can be utilized tactically in battle.

So there is loads of strategy and tactical choices in both the gameplay and character builds that are presented through the concept of Fury.

[konfeta]

starting slow does not fit the barbarian at all, and it does not make a single thing more tactical. how is it more interesting to be required every fight to go up and do the lamest attack 4-5 times before doing anything cool as opposed to just unleashing pwn on the universe from the beginning. its not.

It fits the Barbarian just fine. He is a seasoned venerable warrior, not an uncontrollable freak who explodes on a hair trigger. Pacing and conserving being angry for appropriate threats just oozes from the concept. Barbarian doesn't mean mindless berserker, especially in Diablo's world.

There will be skills that don't cost fury to cast that allow him to start a fight off with a bang if one so desires. Namely, things like Leap or certain warcries.

And yes, it does make it more tactical. You no longer start every fight at full capacity, nor do you have the ability to spam your strongest skills from the get go. There are now numerous decisions involved such as which skill to open, follow up, and end with; whenever to tank or avoid damage; whenever taking out smaller enemies to build up fury to open up on the big bad with a big attack or focusing on the big one so you can smash the group with an AoE attack. Another layer of decision is whenever you start using low fury costing abilities or risk to save up for the big hitters.

Plenty of tactical concepts opened up with this. For a character that doesn't have the luxury of using cover, terrain, and distance like ranged characters, this is an equalizing boon that makes it far, far more interesting to play.

And lastly, how is it "more fun" to open every fight with your flashiest/strongest attack? Don't you get tired of Whirlwinding every mook? Making you work for the big attack increases its value; I find the idea of setting/working the mob up for the big bad Whirlwind or Ground Slam attack far more appealing than simply playing a castrated melee range caster that takes comparatively little imagination to play.

[Teleportftw]

It fits the Barbarian just fine. He is a seasoned venerable warrior, not an uncontrollable freak who explodes on a hair trigger. Pacing and conserving being angry for appropriate threats just oozes from the concept. Barbarian doesn't mean mindless berserker, especially in Diablo's world.

There will be skills that don't cost fury to cast that allow him to start a fight off with a bang if one so desires. Namely, things like Leap or certain warcries.

And yes, it does make it more tactical. You no longer start every fight at full capacity, nor do you have the ability to spam your strongest skills from the get go. There are now numerous decisions involved such as which skill to open, follow up, and end with; whenever to tank or avoid damage; whenever taking out smaller enemies to build up fury to open up on the big bad with a big attack or focusing on the big one so you can smash the group with an AoE attack. Another layer of decision is whenever you start using low fury costing abilities or risk to save up for the big hitters.

Plenty of tactical concepts opened up with this. For a character that doesn't have the luxury of using cover, terrain, and distance like ranged characters, this is an equalizing boon that makes it far, far more interesting to play.

And lastly, how is it "more fun" to open every fight with your flashiest/strongest attack? Don't you get tired of Whirlwinding every mook? Making you work for the big attack increases its value; I find the idea of setting/working the mob up for the big bad Whirlwind or Groun

Let's use an example, since you are being exasperatingly numb about it. I am barb w/ mana I see big bunch of monsters, I think oo there are some rangies in back I will leap attack over all of them as opener and start my wreckage there. Or OOO there are some monsters that try to blow up against me I will open with a ranged thing, or OOO there are a bunch of cows rammed together I will run up and WW through them to start. It's exciting its fast paced, in fact its how the barb played in the gameplay video(because the barb was hacked).

now lets look at your extra cool fury way. oh look a bunch of monsters I think I will run up and hit them numerous times with the only attack I am capable of doing. yay more tactics!

[Teleportftw]

Which is what exactly you will be doing as soon as you have enough Fury.



Normal attacks + Non-Fury costing abilities + if there is any Fury left from the previous fight it could be used too, All in all it is the same as having to wait for you mana to recharge or having to seek out mana globes, there isn't a grave difference, but rather than waiting you need to fight more, how is that less badass really !!!?

It also does make the barbarian quite unique, and makes the player more keen onto rushing the next mob as soon as possible and fighting non-stop, which is what the Barbarian is all about.



Gah, in the demo the people played the Barbarian wasn't hacked :whistling:




Unleashing pwn is also called spamming mindlessly, i would rather have something that requires some skill and thought rather than something that requires mashing mindlessly.

Actually when people come in here asking what is Fury i become sure that they don't know anything about the subject and didn't even bother to read about Fury and the Barbarian Skill trees in the D3 Wiki, there are many skills in the Barbarian Skill tree that enhance his Fury generation, keep it stacked for longer, generate some fury upon using certain specific attacks or upon inflicting critical damage, etc etc .. the whole Barbarian skill tree is built around Fury and the different ways it can be utilized tactically in battle.

So there is loads of strategy and tactical choices in both the gameplay and character builds that are presented through the concept of Fury.

Walking up and hitting someone numerous times with your normal attack requires skill? What parallel universe do you live in? And sure its modestly unique(assuming we ignore its stolen from WOW. But it would also be unique to require the wizard to have a regent for every spell she casts and have to restock every regent all the time. Then again unique and lame isn't a bonus.

[Knight_Wolf]

now lets look at your extra cool fury way. oh look a bunch of monsters I think I will run up and hit them numerous times with the only attack I am capable of doing. yay more tactics!

Did you even read what he said, or did you just quote it without reading :unimpressed:

konfeta and i already mentioned there are some skills that don't require Fury at all, and other passive skills that make Fury regenerate more with critical hits and certain other skills, and if you are fast enough you can use the Fury from your previous battle in the next one, so yes there is LOADS of options and tactics involved.

You just want to upgrade one skill to the max then spam mindlessly and kill everything with it ( which was possible in D2 with potion spamming and mana leech ), but that's not the case in D3.

Many people who used the Barb in Blizzcon 08 liked the Fury concept and found it interesting since there are many skills ( passive / active ) that depend on Fury.


And use the edit button instead of double posting, it was made for a reason, or do you like spam that much !!!

[Teleportftw]

Did you even read what he said, or did you just quote it without reading :unimpressed:

konfeta and i already mentioned there are some skills that don't require Fury at all, and other passive skills that make Fury regenerate more with critical hits and certain other skills, and if you are fast enough you can use the Fury from your previous battle in the next one, so yes there is LOADS of options and tactics involved.

You just want to upgrade one skill to the max then spam mindlessly and kill everything with it ( which was possible in D2 with potion spamming and mana leech ), but that's not the case in D3.

Many people who used the Barb in Blizzcon 08 liked the Fury concept and found it interesting since there are many skills ( passive / active ) that depend on Fury.


And use the edit button instead of double posting, it was made for a reason, or do you like spam that much !!!

I only see 3 posts I made on this page and they all respond to different things. And here is your argument "fury is lame but there's a bunch of workarounds." so you agree w/ me. as for the workaround part, the no fury skills and the running really quickly from fight to fight in the prayer that u keep ur fury. why bother?

I don't personally know which skills don't use fury, my guess nothing u really want doesn't use fury. which in the end leads to the same lame outcome, you have to use ur middling uninteresting attacks, which contrary to your assertions ADD ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TACTICALLY, just so u can then use the attacks u really wanna use. That's not cooler or funner or more interesting or more tactical. It is by in large just lame. like in my example prior under a mana(you don't have to call it mana, just a system where u have access to ur abilities at beginning of fight) there are tons of different ways to exploit ur powerful and awesomely fun moves at the beginning of fights to leave carnage and badassness. Under the other system every fight starts w/ the lame zero fury skills(whatever they are) until u've mindlessly pounded whatever is in front of u enough to then unleash the cool badass abilities.

[Knight_Wolf]

I don't personally know which skills don't use fury, my guess nothing u really want doesn't use fury.

Nope the majority of skills until now don't use Fury, only heavy hitting and powerful attacks use Fury. ( seems you didn't even bother looking up the Barbarian skill trees )

Well, you don't seem to get it yet do you.



As for the choices, sigh ... I'll explain in more detail.

-First choice you will come across is whether you want your Barb to generate Fury fast and exhaust it fast or regenerate it normally and keep it stacked from battle to battle .. so yes ... this will provide more build options even before you start fighting.

-Now you are in a fight .... let's say you still can't use your heavy hitting skills cause you don't have fury since this is your first fight in the dungeon, but instead you can use the skills at you disposal tactically to build up Fury then choose when and on which skill you will use it.

Some will generate Fury in short bursts and use it quickly, some will build up fury to the max ( utilizing their character which is built for that ) then unleash their most powerful attacks, some will use an amount of Fury depending on the dreadfulness of the situation, some will just kill the mob using normal attacks and non-fury skills and keep the Fury they built for the next mob or boss ( again utilizing their character which is built for that ).

ALL these choices exist without even mentioning what are the non-Fury skills, which will surely add even much more choices to the mix ... what more would anyone want !!?







On the other hand your option is simply giving the player mana and of course ( mana globes ), what do you expect, the player will not care about any other options, skills .. or whatever ... he has mana and he logically will only use his most powerful skill and spam it to death cause it wouldn't make sense if we used any other less powerful attacks/skills ... if a player has the mana to use his most powerful attacks ( and refill mana using mana globes ) and still used weaker attacks then he is only fooling himself and playing poorly, so were are the choices you mention ... there is only spamming you so called cool badass ability.


All the other options hold no value or merit if you can spam your most powerful skill from the very start ... got it now ... but let me make it easier for you, what you want is like giving someone an infinite bazooka or super charged nuclear gun at the start of an FPS game then expecting him to choose to use a pitiful pistol to kill their enemies, there is no choice but to use and spam the infinite Bazooka, that's the only logical choice !!!



And if you run out of mana you will simply have to run ( Lame ) or grind against monsters hopelessly ( totally different from Fury system were you attack monsters knowing that each attack you hit and every hit you take allows you to unleash much more powerful attacks against those enemies and eventually win the fight )

[Teleportftw]

Nope the majority of skills until now don't use Fury, only heavy hitting and powerful attacks use Fury. ( seems you didn't even bother looking up the Barbarian skill trees )

Well, you don't seem to get it yet do you.



As for the choices, sigh ... I'll explain in more detail.

-First choice you will come across is whether you want your Barb to generate Fury fast and exhaust it fast or regenerate it normally and keep it stacked from battle to battle .. so yes ... this will provide more build options even before you start fighting.

-Now you are in a fight .... let's say you still can't use your heavy hitting skills cause you don't have fury since this is your first fight in the dungeon, but instead you can use the skills at you disposal tactically to build up Fury then choose when and on which skill you will use it.

Some will generate Fury in short bursts and use it quickly, some will build up fury to the max ( utilizing their character which is built for that ) then unleash their most powerful attacks, some will use an amount of Fury depending on the dreadfulness of the situation, some will just kill the mob using normal attacks and non-fury skills and keep the Fury they built for the next mob or boss ( again utilizing their character which is built for that ).

ALL these choices exist without even mentioning what are the non-Fury skills, which will surely add even much more choices to the mix ... what more would anyone want !!?







On the other hand your option is simply giving the player mana and of course ( mana globes ), what do you expect, the player will not care about any other options, skills .. or whatever ... he has mana and he logically will only use his most powerful skill and spam it to death cause it wouldn't make sense if we used any other less powerful attacks/skills ... if a player has the mana to use his most powerful attacks ( and refill mana using mana globes ) and still used weaker attacks then he is only fooling himself and playing poorly, so were are the choices you mention ... there is only spamming you so called cool badass ability.


All the other options hold no value or merit if you can spam your most powerful skill from the very start ... got it now ... but let me make it easier for you, what you want is like giving someone an infinite bazooka or super charged nuclear gun at the start of an FPS game then expecting him to choose to use a pitiful pistol to kill their enemies, there is no choice but to use and spam the infinite Bazooka, that's the only logical choice !!!



And if you run out of mana you will simply have to run ( Lame ) or grind against monsters hopelessly ( totally different from Fury system were you attack monsters knowing that each attack you hit and every hit you take allows you to unleash much more powerful attacks against those enemies and eventually win the fight )

blizzard has already stated that they don't want people using just one skill. I assume blizzard is smart enough to give us a bunch of top tier combat skills, and that forcing us to use other skils by disabling the skills we really wanna use is an extremely lame crutch. it'd be like requiring ppl to use concentrate 5 times before they could use whirlwind EVERY FIGHT.

a lot of your posts seem to be centered around the "yah I know fury is lame but here are the workarounds." then u delve off into the zero fury skills and all the skillpts we can sink into trying to unlame fury. well all I gotta say is again, WHY BOTHER. Why not just remove the lame at its source, open up the barb, let us use all our weapons. Hobbling the barb everyfight doesn't make it cooler or funner or more interesting. It just means I gotta walkup and wack the stupid mob with concentrate before I can do something cool like whirlwind. it also like my example up-page COMPLETELY GIMPS all sorts of cool openings barbs could in theory use, that ACTUALLY do add tactical choices. instead of funneling everyone into the lame.

[Knight_Wolf]

use whirlwind EVERY FIGHT.


ACTUALLY do add tactical choices.

Yeah, i can see the choices :whistling:

And stop calling Fury lame cause it ain't and repeating it won't prove anything, you just never played with the D3 Barb and don't know anything about his Skills, better stick with D2 and avoid D3 then.

[stillman]

This is clearly a matter of opinion. Some people like building up fury in a sort of combo attack. Combos are fun...for some. Others want more complete control over their barb. Control is important.

For me, I think we should have the option of 'mindless spamming' if we invest hundreds of hours into reaching that goal. I like to come home from work and easily slaughter thousands of bad guys in a lazy clickfest. It's not like I started doing this at level 12. I had to be really devoted and get just the right gear for my bowazon. It may be mindless spamming, but this is a fun way for some people. Just because some people don't like spamming the same skill, why shouldn't I be allowed to do it?

I hate the d2 kicker assassin and I would hate to be forced to play a barb in that way: hitting a bad guy or 2 a bunch of times to set up a combo. I don't want to use combos. I want to painfully struggle for hundreds of hours being nerfed, then get things together so my chr really shines through at end game. At that point, I want to be able to click once and kill those first 2 bad guys instantly. I earned it. No combos for me please.

Hopefully Blizzard will allow both ways. Here is what I would like to see:
-the forced combo attacks (building up fury) are there if you want to cruise through the game at a good normal pace.
-If you hate being forced into building up fury, you can opt for the big struggle I mentioned above where you build your barb nerfed badly and play at a slow pace. But once you get over that hump, you got yourself a build where you no longer have to worry about being forced to do a combo again. Then, you play at the fast dream-like pace after the struggle.

Everyone would be happy. These different play styles are in d2 so I don't see how it has to be one way or the other in d3.

So the question is, wouldn't EVERYONE eventually opt for the second build where you get to ignore the fury building combo? Wouldn't everyone find that build and bypass fury? The answer is no. The hammerdin gets to bypass immunes, but many people refuse to play one. Like I said, the second option where you get to use your chosen skill in a mindless click fest takes considerable time and devotion to reach. Not everyone wants to struggle for a few hundred hours. Many would still go for the fury building combo build.

The most important thing is playstyle. Some people hate mindless click fest and even if they made a d3 barb where you get to use your one skill almost everytime, they would get bored and remake a fury building combo barb because that is their prefered playstyle.

[konfeta]

There is a vast gulf of difference between Assassin combos and Fury based combos. But I digress, you are mostly correct. It's a matter of preference. I just feel that a melee fighter using mana is taking the worst of both melee and ranged caster worlds.

I doubt there will be a large amount of Fury capacity boosting gear, if any, though. This is one mechanic they really kept a tight control over in WoW, I am guessing they will do the same in D3.


Let's use an example, since you are being exasperatingly numb about it. I am barb w/ mana I see big bunch of monsters, I think oo there are some rangies in back I will leap attack over all of them as opener and start my wreckage there. Or OOO there are some monsters that try to blow up against me I will open with a ranged thing, or OOO there are a bunch of cows rammed together I will run up and WW through them to start. It's exciting its fast paced, in fact its how the barb played in the gameplay video(because the barb was hacked).

now lets look at your extra cool fury way. oh look a bunch of monsters I think I will run up and hit them numerous times with the only attack I am capable of doing. yay more tactics!

Looks like we are done here. You haven't addressed a single argument I made beyond mockingly stating that it's flat out wrong. Your preference for a mana based system is fine, I guess, but when actually arguing the merits of different systems try to use actual arguments as opposed to ignoring or brushing your opposition's arguments aside by hammering in your opinion like it was dogma.

And don't call other people "exasperatingly dumb," the last thing that does is help you.

[NioTumsSpik]

imagine a warrior in wow with always full fury and you can see the wrong thing with having mana for the barb :P

[Teleportftw]

Yeah, i can see the choices :whistling:

And stop calling Fury lame cause it ain't and repeating it won't prove anything, you just never played with the D3 Barb and don't know anything about his Skills, better stick with D2 and avoid D3 then.

is this what you've been reduced too? I think you are too emotionally attached to blizzard's official stance. It's ok to dislike things in the game. Fury IS LAME, it artificially limits you and disables the beginning parts of fight. It makes you use crappy skills until you can have access to the fun ones.

[Teleportftw]

There is a vast gulf of difference between Assassin combos and Fury based combos. But I digress, you are mostly correct. It's a matter of preference. I just feel that a melee fighter using mana is taking the worst of both melee and ranged caster worlds.

I doubt there will be a large amount of Fury capacity boosting gear, if any, though. This is one mechanic they really kept a tight control over in WoW, I am guessing they will do the same in D3.



Looks like we are done here. You haven't addressed a single argument I made beyond mockingly stating that it's flat out wrong. Your preference for a mana based system is fine, I guess, but when actually arguing the merits of different systems try to use actual arguments as opposed to ignoring or brushing your opposition's arguments aside by hammering in your opinion like it was dogma.

And don't call other people "exasperatingly dumb," the last thing that does is help you.

I've given examples why fury is lame, I've explained repeatedly in detail why it dumbs down barb play and why it is an artificial crutch. If all you can muster in response is "lol you haven't addressed my argument." That is one of the most tired retorts on the tubes, get new material.

Fury IS LAME. There is NO GOOD REASON to artificially limit the beginning of a fight. having to wack something with concentrate 5 times before you can whirlwind DOES NOT ADD AN OUNCE OF FUN, in fact it takes fun away. very explicitly limiting A LARGE NUMBER OF FUN AND EXCITING OPENINGS TO FIGHTS. Your argument if I remember was about adding "tactics." FURY EXPLICITLY LIMITS THE NUMBER OF TACTICS YOU CAN USE BY REMOVING OPTIONS, it is the EXACT OPPOSITE of adding tactics.

I used the bold in the hopes it would help your reading comprehension.

[Teleportftw]

imagine a warrior in wow with always full fury and you can see the wrong thing with having mana for the barb :P

Diablo is not WOW, it is way different. There are way fewer enemies onscreen at a time in WOW and fights take a lot longer. WOW is largely a game of management. You have to keep your debuffs up, your DOTs up your pets healed, your party healed, your threat up. Every character has a bunch of parameters to manage in a group. One of the things warriors manage is their fury(rage). diablo is not WOW, its faster paced, you kill way more enemies. There is no fun reason to make barbs suck at the beginning of fights.

barb w/ mana: you have 6 attacks, you may use 1 of these 6 attacks to open a fight depending on positioning, enemy composition, health, etc etc.

barb w/ fury: you have 1 attack, you may use 1 of these 1 attacks to open a fight...

[NioTumsSpik]

Diablo is not WOW, it is way different. There are way fewer enemies onscreen at a time in WOW and fights take a lot longer. WOW is largely a game of management. You have to keep your debuffs up, your DOTs up your pets healed, your party healed, your threat up. Every character has a bunch of parameters to manage in a group. One of the things warriors manage is their fury(rage). diablo is not WOW, its faster paced, you kill way more enemies. There is no fun reason to make barbs suck at the beginning of fights.

barb w/ mana: you have 6 attacks, you may use 1 of these 6 attacks to open a fight depending on positioning, enemy composition, health, etc etc.

barb w/ fury: you have 1 attack, you may use 1 of these 1 attacks to open a fight...

No you don't have 1 attack, you will have several no fury cost attacks.
Its just the zomg pwn skills that will cost alot of fury, and if you look at the skills most attacks cost like 5 - 15 fury, and you get that in like 1-2 hits.

And the fights in D3 seems to be alot longer then the 1 sec fights we have in D2.

So its more like this:

You see a group of mobs you attack them with leap attack and you get lets say 5 fury, you use hammer of the ancients, you lose 5 fury. You then use cleave 2-3 times, you get 20 fury, you use whirlwind 2 times a.s.o.

It is not like you just have to swing at them with the normal weapon swing for like 5 times before you can use any skill, you have many skills that don't cost fury and dose that do don't cost much.

[NioTumsSpik]

im gonna take some exemples here:

Battle Rage

* Active Skill
* Max Rank: 1
* Description: The barbarian enters a rage which increases damage done by 100% and increases Critical damage by 30%. Lasts for 15 seconds.
* Fury Cost: 50

Yea, becouse that will work with mana? haveing the barb constantly have a 130% dmg bonus? The thing with fury is that they can make this totaly overpowered spells without them being to OP, since you can't use them all the time.

Frenzy

* Active Skill
'* Description: When attacking with Frenzy, the Barbarian's weapon damage and attack speed are increased. Frenzy can be used repeatedly, stacking the speed bonus up to three times.
Rank 1: Deals 120% weapon damage. In addition, attack speed is increased by 6% for 10 seconds. (Up to 18%, with stacking.)
* Fury Cost: None

Look at the fury cost, NONE.

If you take the time to actuly read up on the skills before you post we shouldent even have this argument.

theres is alot of attacks that dont use fury, and there are alot that do. And they compliment each other well.


Edit:
I just have to say one thing more.


Whirlwind


* Active Skill
* Rune Sockets: 1
* Max Rank: 1
* Description: Become a cyclone, delivering multiple hits to everything in your path.
o Rank 1: Each hit deals 25% of weapon damage.
o Rank 2: Each hit deals 30% of weapon damage.
* Fury Cost: None


LOL fury cost NONE. Its clear that some of you dont even read before you start hating on things.

(And no im not flaming on anyone here, i just hate when people bash this awesome game for no obvious reason)

[Teleportftw]

im gonna take some exemples here:

Battle Rage

* Active Skill
* Max Rank: 1
* Description: The barbarian enters a rage which increases damage done by 100% and increases Critical damage by 30%. Lasts for 15 seconds.
* Fury Cost: 50

Yea, becouse that will work with mana? haveing the barb constantly have a 130% dmg bonus? The thing with fury is that they can make this totaly overpowered spells without them being to OP, since you can't use them all the time.

Frenzy

* Active Skill
'* Description: When attacking with Frenzy, the Barbarian's weapon damage and attack speed are increased. Frenzy can be used repeatedly, stacking the speed bonus up to three times.
Rank 1: Deals 120% weapon damage. In addition, attack speed is increased by 6% for 10 seconds. (Up to 18%, with stacking.)
* Fury Cost: None

Look at the fury cost, NONE.

If you take the time to actuly read up on the skills before you post we shouldent even have this argument.

theres is alot of attacks that dont use fury, and there are alot that do. And they compliment each other well.


Edit:
I just have to say one thing more.


Whirlwind


* Active Skill
* Rune Sockets: 1
* Max Rank: 1
* Description: Become a cyclone, delivering multiple hits to everything in your path.
o Rank 1: Each hit deals 25% of weapon damage.
o Rank 2: Each hit deals 30% of weapon damage.
* Fury Cost: None


LOL fury cost NONE. Its clear that some of you dont even read before you start hating on things.

(And no im not flaming on anyone here, i just hate when people bash this awesome game for no obvious reason)

obviously the game will be balanced differently if it has fury than if it has mana. and again the second half of your argument is the same workaround argument. why have workarounds for something lame when you can remove the lame thing entirely? makes sense to me. and looking up skills now isn't going to do much good its just screenshots from the only playable demo in pre-alpha. fury is still lame, it still removes tactics.

[Teleportftw]

No you don't have 1 attack, you will have several no fury cost attacks.
Its just the zomg pwn skills that will cost alot of fury, and if you look at the skills most attacks cost like 5 - 15 fury, and you get that in like 1-2 hits.

And the fights in D3 seems to be alot longer then the 1 sec fights we have in D2.

So its more like this:

You see a group of mobs you attack them with leap attack and you get lets say 5 fury, you use hammer of the ancients, you lose 5 fury. You then use cleave 2-3 times, you get 20 fury, you use whirlwind 2 times a.s.o.

It is not like you just have to swing at them with the normal weapon swing for like 5 times before you can use any skill, you have many skills that don't cost fury and dose that do don't cost much.

same argument, "workaround." if the workaround is the only argument you guys have than you're just proving fury is lame and shouldn't be here.

[Teleportftw]

btw NioTumsSpik I looked at the dwiki trees for barbarian, only 3 skills over all 3 trees cost fury and two are tier 1 skills. My guess is the game is a bit unfinished, unless of course you think thats how it will be released. Either way before the condescending flame maybe YOU should have investigated deeper.

[Cardy]

You guys dont have to agree. Fury could be awesome and it might really suck... blizzard decided to put it in... lucky for some there are other classes that don't use fury so if you don't like it you can avoid it. Lets relax and wait for more details before we have these theoretical arguments with little evidence and facts. I wish we could all get along :alright: !

if you're ever feeling down, just watch the jig - it's awesome! :jig:

[NioTumsSpik]

if you're ever feeling down, just watch the jig - it's awesome! :jig:

Thanx for that, you made me all fuzzy inside :cloud9:

[Majaii]

This is a new experience for me, this thread has actually kinda ticked me off, which doesn't happen to me very often lol.

@Teleportftw

I need to jump in here and point some things out to you, in hopes that you will broaden your outlook.

First, the game is not finished yet and we really don't know what things will be like, and how finished gameplay is going to feel. We cannot prove or dis-prove anything until the game is done and we can play it and point to it to establish opinions. You yourself just pointed out that the game is not done, since you only found 3 skills that required fury, which argues against you not for you.

Second, and tied to the first you are making assumptions. You assume everyone wants to play like you do. You assume that the "fun" skills will require fury, and the not fun skills will not. You also assume that that there is only one way to tactically play a Barbarian.

Third, I will tell you at the end, since this is the part that ticks me off.

If we do take the information that we have so far, and choose to argue one side or the other about the usefulness of Fury, then from the wiki we can come to these conclusions:

1. Most skills do not require Fury.
2. As was stated before, the way you use Fury is up to you, there are skills that allow you to manage how use it.
3. If you want to move from one battle to the next and still be able to use Fury in your first hit you may do so depending on how you have utilized option 2.
4. The dev's intended for D3 gameplay to be more dynamic then D2, with many different skill choices and styles.

Now, in the interest of being fair let me state that those 4 conclusions are in the end, my opinion, and ultimately my assumptions. I believe they are good assumptions, but as such they are free to be challenged.

This brings me back to my third item. Your argument up to this point has consisted of you responding to every counter argument saying "same argument, "workaround"." when no one has ever suggested workaround. This is basically me stepping out of character and telling you to listen to what other people are saying if you want anyone to give any weight to your opinions. Let me repeat, no one suggested their opinion as a workaround, they talked about why they thought Fury was a good idea, and what type of depth it could add to Barbarian gameplay.

If you don't think Fury is a good idea, fine. I am not convinced it is myself, although I lean more to the "yes" then the "no" side. If you don't think the Barbarian will play better, fine, go play a wizard, or stick to D2. If you want to argue that Fury will stink and it will remove tactics then do so, but learn how to argue coherently for your own sake. Edit:I am going to be nice and remove that part, to preachy lol.

-Majaii

[Teleportftw]

This is a new experience for me, this thread has actually kinda ticked me off, which doesn't happen to me very often lol.

@Teleportftw

I need to jump in here and point some things out to you, in hopes that you will broaden your outlook.

First, the game is not finished yet and we really don't know what things will be like, and how finished gameplay is going to feel. We cannot prove or dis-prove anything until the game is done and we can play it and point to it to establish opinions. You yourself just pointed out that the game is not done, since you only found 3 skills that required fury, which argues against you not for you.

Second, and tied to the first you are making assumptions. You assume everyone wants to play like you do. You assume that the "fun" skills will require fury, and the not fun skills will not. You also assume that that there is only one way to tactically play a Barbarian.

Third, I will tell you at the end, since this is the part that ticks me off.

If we do take the information that we have so far, and choose to argue one side or the other about the usefulness of Fury, then from the wiki we can come to these conclusions:

1. Most skills do not require Fury.
2. As was stated before, the way you use Fury is up to you, there are skills that allow you to manage how use it.
3. If you want to move from one battle to the next and still be able to use Fury in your first hit you may do so depending on how you have utilized option 2.
4. The dev's intended for D3 gameplay to be more dynamic then D2, with many different skill choices and styles.

Now, in the interest of being fair let me state that those 4 conclusions are in the end, my opinion, and ultimately my assumptions. I believe they are good assumptions, but as such they are free to be challenged.

This brings me back to my third item. Your argument up to this point has consisted of you responding to every counter argument saying "same argument, "workaround"." when no one has ever suggested workaround. This is basically me stepping out of character and telling you to listen to what other people are saying if you want anyone to give any weight to your opinions. Let me repeat, no one suggested their opinion as a workaround, they talked about why they thought Fury was a good idea, and what type of depth it could add to Barbarian gameplay.

If you don't think Fury is a good idea, fine. I am not convinced it is myself, although I lean more to the "yes" then the "no" side. If you don't think the Barbarian will play better, fine, go play a wizard, or stick to D2. If you want to argue that Fury will stink and it will remove tactics then do so, but learn how to argue coherently for your own sake. Edit:I am going to be nice and remove that part, to preachy lol.

-Majaii

its pretty obvious that 2 tier one skill and one other skill won't be the only things requiring fury. wiki is essentially useless information, if anything it would be smarter to use WOW as a better comparison as its a finished game designed by blizz that uses fury(rage).

I don't assume everyone wants to play like I do, I merely state my opinion. Which is all anyone does. How about this, we get rid of fury AND YOU DON'T PLAY D3? I like that better.

Fury is lame, it removes options, slow the game down, removes kineticism makes the game more a management game(like WOW). it will not be cool or interesting. all my arguments are perfectly coherent, so get off your high horse and get down into the mud w/ the real arguments. I can't stand preachy asses with nothing to add.

oh and btw you don't need to "-majaii" at the end, your name is perfectly readable from your login on the left. figures someone who does that would write a post like you did though.

[Majaii]

its pretty obvious that 2 tier one skill and one other skill won't be the only things requiring fury. wiki is essentially useless information

My point exactly, what you see as obvious is merely speculation. How do you know that's how it will be, when it is at odds with everything that we have been given so far?


I don't assume everyone wants to play like I do, I merely state my opinion. Which is all anyone does.

Like you saying here what attacks we are going to want to use?



I don't personally know which skills don't use fury, my guess nothing u really want doesn't use fury. which in the end leads to the same lame outcome, you have to use ur middling uninteresting attacks, which contrary to your assertions ADD ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TACTICALLY, just so u can then use the attacks u really wanna use.

Just cause you assume that you and I want to use the same attacks doesn't make that true. I would much rather use every attack I can then spam one or two all the time.


Fury is lame, it removes options, slow the game down, removes kineticism makes the game more a management game(like WOW). it will not be cool or interesting.

What kind of options does it remove? Spamming one skill? Why don't you just build your barbarian to lose his fury slowly then so that you still have some when you go into the next battle? Spam away then, nothing is stopping you. Wait, you can also choose to use a different skill! And speaking of skill, how hard is it to push a button? Like it has been stated, if you want too go ahead, but there is nothing tactical about it. If you would rather face each situation as it's own battle, choosing what skills you are going to use based upon what type of terrain you are in and what kind of monsters you face, well then Fury lets you do that.


all my arguments are perfectly coherent, so get off your high horse and get down into the mud w/ the real arguments. I can't stand preachy asses with nothing to add.

oh and btw you don't need to "-majaii" at the end, your name is perfectly readable from your login on the left. figures someone who does that would write a post like you did though.

Lol, your flaming me for signing my post? I guess if it makes you feel better. You didn't respond to my arguments though, just repeated your own. Even when you are now at odds with what you posted a couple of pages back, when you said the cool skills would require fury.

[Teleportftw]

My point exactly, what you see as obvious is merely speculation. How do you know that's how it will be, when it is at odds with everything that we have been given so far?



Like you saying here what attacks we are going to want to use?



Just cause you assume that you and I want to use the same attacks doesn't make that true. I would much rather use every attack I can then spam one or two all the time.



What kind of options does it remove? Spamming one skill? Why don't you just build your barbarian to lose his fury slowly then so that you still have some when you go into the next battle? Spam away then, nothing is stopping you. Wait, you can also choose to use a different skill! And speaking of skill, how hard is it to push a button? Like it has been stated, if you want too go ahead, but there is nothing tactical about it. If you would rather face each situation as it's own battle, choosing what skills you are going to use based upon what type of terrain you are in and what kind of monsters you face, well then Fury lets you do that.



Lol, your flaming me for signing my post? I guess if it makes you feel better. You didn't respond to my arguments though, just repeated your own. Even when you are now at odds with what you posted a couple of pages back, when you said the cool skills would require fury.

well obviously I need to repeat them again since you haven't read the numerous examples I've given.

no fury. you have 1 of 6 skills(blizzard has stated they want 6 competitive skills) that you can use based on enemy makeup, map layout, char design.

fury. you have 1 of 1 skills to use.

I am not, and have never advocated "spamming one skill." and for you to mention that simply shows the incredibly bad and malicious faith you are arguing in. blizzard said they'd give us 6. I want 6 skills that I can use a tactically fast paced and exciting way. not walk up and wackamob every fight at the start, that is lame, boring, and not how diablo games should play.

Lets look at WOW, wow is a management game, you manage rage, you manage your debuffs or your threat. you have rotations, fights last longer. this is from where fury comes from. I don't want diablo to play like that. I want diablo to be a kinetically fast paced game, for the barbarian to be flying around the screen unleashing his badassery all over the map, to take and receive high amts of damage for the decisions to be based upon positioning and composition, and not on rage rotations, or macros.

I believe I have spent atleast 10x as long and been twice as sincere as any of my haters in this thread in explaining my conception of what will make diablo awesome. They have continuously attempted to end arguments with massive snobbery. and this latest person didn't even want to have an argument, merely to make one long flame against me.

[Majaii]

well obviously I need to repeat them again since you haven't read the numerous examples I've given.

no fury. you have 1 of 6 skills(blizzard has stated they want 6 competitive skills) that you can use based on enemy makeup, map layout, char design.

fury. you have 1 of 1 skills to use.

I am not, and have never advocated "spamming one skill." and for you to mention that simply shows the incredibly bad and malicious faith you are arguing in. blizzard said they'd give us 6. I want 6 skills that I can use a tactically fast paced and exciting way. not walk up and wackamob every fight at the start, that is lame, boring, and not how diablo games should play.

I'll give you that one, I missed the post you made earlier about using 6 skills. Recall that I have never said I think Fury is Da coolest, I am undecided. So you have a valid argument there.


Lets look at WOW, wow is a management game, you manage rage, you manage your debuffs or your threat. you have rotations, fights last longer. this is from where fury comes from. I don't want diablo to play like that. I want diablo to be a kinetically fast paced game, for the barbarian to be flying around the screen unleashing his badassery all over the map, to take and receive high amts of damage for the decisions to be based upon positioning and composition, and not on rage rotations, or macros.

I don't want that either, nor have I argued for that. I agree Diablo should be fast paced, and I didn't like WoW's rage from the little I played it. I am saying that from what we know of Fury for Diablo 3 that's not how it will work. It seems like you should still be able to use tons of skills at the beginning of a battle, and Fury actually makes gameplay quicker by forcing you to move quickly to the next mob if you want to retain the fury that you gained in your last battle. How is that slower?

Let me go into tactics for a bit. You have repeatadly said in this thread that the way you see Fury working is like using concentrate 5 times so you can then whirlwind. That of course would stink and would be slow. That's not the way it is so far though, there are plenty of cool skills that can be used without fury, and some that might require it. In the end I think that is a matter of opinion like stillman said, because some people just want to click a button, and other people enjoy the challenge of not being able to just blast through every fight. From the gameplay video it looks like blizzard is trying to make it so that some situations will require multiple skills to get through them. That calls for tactics. Merely choosing if I want to use skill A or skill B, both of which are viable is not tactics, it is just choosing A or B. Choosing A because B won't work as well till you have done A, which then leaves an opening for B and then maybe C, that is much more tactical.


I believe I have spent atleast 10x as long and been twice as sincere as any of my haters in this thread in explaining my conception of what will make diablo awesome. They have continuously attempted to end arguments with massive snobbery. and this latest person didn't even want to have an argument, merely to make one long flame against me.

If you think I am flaming you instead of arguing a point, tell me so, don't just complain about it to whoever else you are now talking to. You have some good points, but try to get them across through brute force, so it does not sound sincere. I think you are sincere, and I respect that, even if that's not how you appear to me from your posts. And I wasn't trying to end an argument, I was starting one since I didn't agree with you. First time I have ever been accused of "massive snobbery" though :D

[Echod16]

"When the Barbarian is not fighting, or not hitting enemies, his Fury steadily fades away, until it drops to nothing several seconds after a battle."


That I don't like at all. I like to take my time when I'm playing. Looking at stuff, comparing weapons etc. I don't like to feel stressed cuz my fury is running out. Would be so much better if the fury gained stays there until you use some skill that costs fury.

Retention- keep your end-battle fury count for a (variable amount of time based upon rank) after battle

not a real skill, just something I think would fit your request nicely

[Teleportftw]

I'll give you that one, I missed the post you made earlier about using 6 skills. Recall that I have never said I think Fury is Da coolest, I am undecided. So you have a valid argument there.



I don't want that either, nor have I argued for that. I agree Diablo should be fast paced, and I didn't like WoW's rage from the little I played it. I am saying that from what we know of Fury for Diablo 3 that's not how it will work. It seems like you should still be able to use tons of skills at the beginning of a battle, and Fury actually makes gameplay quicker by forcing you to move quickly to the next mob if you want to retain the fury that you gained in your last battle. How is that slower?

Let me go into tactics for a bit. You have repeatadly said in this thread that the way you see Fury working is like using concentrate 5 times so you can then whirlwind. That of course would stink and would be slow. That's not the way it is so far though, there are plenty of cool skills that can be used without fury, and some that might require it. In the end I think that is a matter of opinion like stillman said, because some people just want to click a button, and other people enjoy the challenge of not being able to just blast through every fight. From the gameplay video it looks like blizzard is trying to make it so that some situations will require multiple skills to get through them. That calls for tactics. Merely choosing if I want to use skill A or skill B, both of which are viable is not tactics, it is just choosing A or B. Choosing A because B won't work as well till you have done A, which then leaves an opening for B and then maybe C, that is much more tactical.



If you think I am flaming you instead of arguing a point, tell me so, don't just complain about it to whoever else you are now talking to. You have some good points, but try to get them across through brute force, so it does not sound sincere. I think you are sincere, and I respect that, even if that's not how you appear to me from your posts. And I wasn't trying to end an argument, I was starting one since I didn't agree with you. First time I have ever been accused of "massive snobbery" though :D

I don't want fury to be "frenzy-like" either, where u have to go like a bolt between battles to keep up ur advantage, I hated that. I pick up a lot of items and stuff and the few times I tried frenzy it infuriated me(haha).

having a rotation is not more interesting, it really really isn't. and removing options IS NOT MORE TACTICAL. like I pointed out numerous times.

nonfury beginning, I can use 1 of 6 skills to demolish my enemy depending on positioning, composition of enemy, layout, etc.

fury beginning, I can use 1 of 1 skills.

the numbers may change slightly but INEVITABLY fury will have to choke off the skills you really want to use to force you to use inferior and almost certainly less interesting skills. I want 6 real skills that are cool and function with different gameplay mechanics. not a couple skills I really wna use and some lameass ones that I'm forced to use to begin every fight.

[Teleportftw]

Retention- keep your end-battle fury count for a (variable amount of time based upon rank) after battle

not a real skill, just something I think would fit your request nicely

then ppl have to be suckier just to be more convenient, I doubt that would please ppl.

[Corpseus]

This whole notion of fury, while flavorful, seams more in line with WOW(obviously as it is ported from the game), than Diablo. In PvM, who cares as they are stupid monsters, but in PvP, if a Barb has to land a regular attack to use any real skill, they might as well hang up their weapons, and implement a new 0 fury skill, "Pick Flowers". Not only does it make the barb predictable, but laughably underpowered. Whirlwind in D2 was an amazing mellee attack, as it allowed the user to continue moving while dueling. Needing to run up, stop, and land a regular attack, before they can even implement their game plan seams like an unnessasy, and possibly futile step.

As is mentioned, if fury builds also while taking damage, then it could work, but I would rather people using different skills because they are all tactically useful, as apposed to being forced to by the game designers. I don't nessasarily feel that Blizzard is making the wrong descision here, but I am skeptical, and only seeing it in game will change my opinion. THis kind of stuff does make me worry that D3 is WOWlight, as apposed to D3, a richer, deeper, but certainly not slower D2.

- Telaportftw, I just read through most of the thread, and I agree with many of your concerns, and hope that we are both wrong in how crappy fury sounds. I am going to make two assumptions also, that you enjoyed the dueling in D2, mainly due to the strategic speed, and hated WOW because of the slowness of it.

[Knight_Wolf]

To blow the bubble of the claims that Fury will slow down the game, pure non-sense, just because Fury works slightly similar to WOW doesn't mean it will work the same way at all, Actually the concept of Rage in WOW is a slowed down version of the ( special attacks bar ) found in many arcade games, the original concept of building up you special bar during combat and then unleashing a very powerful special attack at the right time and place to save yourself from a pinch or kill as many enemies as you can ( YEAH .... also called TACTICS ) is a stable of fast paced arcade games way before WOW came to existence, in D3 they are merely taking the idea back to it roots .. so this argument is mute.

Obviously a powerful attack which you can spam or use any time you wish becomes boring, stupid, unbalanced and loses any impact it has ... on the other hand a powerful attack which requires effort to build up to .. and requires skill to use right is 10X more rewarding and balanced. ( choosing the time and place carefully to use it or else waste it )

-Second, NO you won't have to start every battle with zero Fury, WHY !!?

There are skills to keep Fury stored for much longer time from previous battles. ( yeah ... what Echod16 suggested already exists )
Fury generates when you attack or when you are hit.
There are skills to make more Fury generate upon doing critical damage or even after using certain skills not just normal attacks.


So few seconds in battle could pretty much fill your Fury meter to fullest, assuming you built your character for that.

-Introducing Fury doesn't removes options AT ALL, it just replaces the set of options which were available with a new DIFFERENT set of options, much more interesting and tactical ones, and not only options during combat but options for different character builds.

-There is no workaround or lame thing about Fury, if it is limited in somehow that's called BALANCING, if they limited it in someway then they did it for a reason, otherwise the system would be exploitable and will encourage spamming ( and D2 was filled with such exploits )



nonfury beginning, I can use 1 of 6 skills to demolish my enemy depending on positioning, composition of enemy, layout, etc.

fury beginning, I can use 1 of 1 skills.

What's that !!?

If you say put two Fury requiring skills in your six slots and another 4 which are non-fury you will get this.

-If you somehow lost all you Fury before start of battle you will have the options to

Use normal attacks
Use any of the 4 non-fury skills you have


If you build some fury ( few seconds later ) more options open up

Using normal attacks to build more fury
Using 4 of the non-fury skills
Using one of the 2 fury requiring skills


Fury options tree might not start with so many options BUT once it opens up it has much more options than any other system implemented in the game, Fury management both in combat and outside ( by choosing which skills to invest into ) will become a skill of its own, and there is no reason to believe it will be slow paced cause action and arcade games have used this concept long before diablo and it WORKS JUST FINE.

So to sum it up
Fury
= Fast paced gameplay ( as seen in arcade and action games which are the origin of the concept )
= Varied choices and tactics ( when, how, where to gather and unleash fury )
=More build options depending on player style ( characters designed to build fury fast, others built to store it longer, ... etc etc )
=Fury fits perfectly with the Barbarian's offensive nature ( encourages melee since fury builds up when you attack or get hit by enemies )
=Creates more variety between classes
=Prevents mindless spam of powerful skills ( like in d2 )


So IMO Fury is a great addition in to the game and since it provides choices, decisions will have to be taken in short time and that requires some brains to use well and manage ( knowing how fast paced Diablo is ).


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btw Teleportftw, don't bother replying cause i know all that you are going to do is simply quote my whole reply then rant about workarounds and how lame you THINK Fury is.

Apparently many disagree with you and you fail to present any solid argument to backup your claims, and from your replies many ( me, Majaii, konfeta ) have deduced that you seem to like spamming and exploiting powerful skills and that's why you hate Fury ... actually your nickname tells the whole story :whistling:

My advice ( if Fury makes it into the final game ) ... just avoid the D3 Barb, or D3 altogether :crazyeyes:

And spare us all the "Workaround" and "lame" comments

[Teleportftw]

To blow the bubble of the claims that Fury will slow down the game, pure non-sense, just because Fury works slightly similar to WOW doesn't mean it will work the same way at all, Actually the concept of Rage in WOW is a slowed down version of the ( special attacks bar ) found in many arcade games, the original concept of building up you special bar during combat and then unleashing a very powerful special attack at the right time and place to save yourself from a pinch or kill as many enemies as you can ( YEAH .... also called TACTICS ) is a stable of fast paced arcade games way before WOW came to existence, in D3 they are merely taking the idea back to it roots .. so this argument is mute.

Obviously a powerful attack which you can spam or use any time you wish becomes boring, stupid, unbalanced and loses any impact it has ... on the other hand a powerful attack which requires effort to build up to .. and requires skill to use right is 10X more rewarding and balanced. ( choosing the time and place carefully to use it or else waste it )

-Second, NO you won't have to start every battle with zero Fury, WHY !!?

There are skills to keep Fury stored for much longer time from previous battles. ( yeah ... what Echod16 suggested already exists )
Fury generates when you attack or when you are hit.
There are skills to make more Fury generate upon doing critical damage or even after using certain skills not just normal attacks.


So few seconds in battle could pretty much fill your Fury meter to fullest, assuming you built your character for that.

-Introducing Fury doesn't removes options AT ALL, it just replaces the set of options which were available with a new DIFFERENT set of options, much more interesting and tactical ones, and not only options during combat but options for different character builds.

-There is no workaround or lame thing about Fury, if it is limited in somehow that's called BALANCING, if they limited it in someway then they did it for a reason, otherwise the system would be exploitable and will encourage spamming ( and D2 was filled with such exploits )



What's that !!?

If you say put two Fury requiring skills in your six slots and another 4 which are non-fury you will get this.

-If you somehow lost all you Fury before start of battle you will have the options to

Use normal attacks
Use any of the 4 non-fury skills you have


If you build some fury ( few seconds later ) more options open up

Using normal attacks to build more fury
Using 4 of the non-fury skills
Using one of the 2 fury requiring skills


Fury options tree might not start with so many options BUT once it opens up it has much more options than any other system implemented in the game, Fury management both in combat and outside ( by choosing which skills to invest into ) will become a skill of its own, and there is no reason to believe it will be slow paced cause action and arcade games have used this concept long before diablo and it WORKS JUST FINE.

So to sum it up
Fury
= Fast paced gameplay ( as seen in arcade and action games which are the origin of the concept )
= Varied choices and tactics ( when, how, where to gather and unleash fury )
=More build options depending on player style ( characters designed to build fury fast, others built to store it longer, ... etc etc )
=Fury fits perfectly with the Barbarian's offensive nature ( encourages melee since fury builds up when you attack or get hit by enemies )
=Creates more variety between classes
=Prevents mindless spam of powerful skills ( like in d2 )


So IMO Fury is a great addition in to the game and since it provides choices, decisions will have to be taken in short time and that requires some brains to use well and manage ( knowing how fast paced Diablo is ).


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btw Teleportftw, don't bother replying cause i know all that you are going to do is simply quote my whole reply then rant about workarounds and how lame you THINK Fury is.

Apparently many disagree with you and you fail to present any solid argument to backup your claims, and from your replies many ( me, Majaii, konfeta ) have deduced that you seem to like spamming and exploiting powerful skills and that's why you hate Fury ... actually your nickname tells the whole story :whistling:

My advice ( if Fury makes it into the final game ) ... just avoid the D3 Barb, or D3 altogether :crazyeyes:

And spare us all the "Workaround" and "lame" comments

well all you do is lie about fury. You say even though fury is taken directly from WOW it will be nothing like WOW. oh reheheheeaaaly? Your entire "more options" thing is yet another lie. FURY LIMITS OPTIONS. it says you must use this attack that you didn't want to use because you have not played wackamole enough times w/ the monsters. and again, it almost FOR CERTAIN that the desirable attacks mechanically and damage wise will be the ones you CAN'T use, while the bland attacks that aren't as fun will be the ones you are FORCED TO USE.

Instead of an open ended fast paced game designed upon adaptation and having large amounts of kinetic fun. you will be funneled into the pre-ordained attack rotation using attacks you otherwise would not want to use but the game designers are forcing upon you. That is fury.

[Teleportftw]

This whole notion of fury, while flavorful, seams more in line with WOW(obviously as it is ported from the game), than Diablo. In PvM, who cares as they are stupid monsters, but in PvP, if a Barb has to land a regular attack to use any real skill, they might as well hang up their weapons, and implement a new 0 fury skill, "Pick Flowers". Not only does it make the barb predictable, but laughably underpowered. Whirlwind in D2 was an amazing mellee attack, as it allowed the user to continue moving while dueling. Needing to run up, stop, and land a regular attack, before they can even implement their game plan seams like an unnessasy, and possibly futile step.

As is mentioned, if fury builds also while taking damage, then it could work, but I would rather people using different skills because they are all tactically useful, as apposed to being forced to by the game designers. I don't nessasarily feel that Blizzard is making the wrong descision here, but I am skeptical, and only seeing it in game will change my opinion. THis kind of stuff does make me worry that D3 is WOWlight, as apposed to D3, a richer, deeper, but certainly not slower D2.

- Telaportftw, I just read through most of the thread, and I agree with many of your concerns, and hope that we are both wrong in how crappy fury sounds. I am going to make two assumptions also, that you enjoyed the dueling in D2, mainly due to the strategic speed, and hated WOW because of the slowness of it.

exactly, build us different skills mechanically/damage wise that we WANT to switch between. Don't FORCE us to use crappier skills as a stepping stone to the ones we want to use.

[Knight_Wolf]

well all you do is lie about fury. You say even though fury is taken directly from WOW it will be nothing like WOW, oh reheheheeaaaly?

It's no lie, it is a FACT, WOW borrowed the concept from action and arcade games then slowed it down to fit with the slow MMORPG pace, D3 is simply taking the the concept back to its fast paced and action/arcade origins ( which is something i already said, but it seems you didn't invest much points in your comprehension skills :crazyeyes: )

Knight_Wolf smacks Teleportftw with a fact ... Teleportftw loses 20 points


Your entire "more options" thing is yet another lie. FURY LIMITS OPTIONS. it says
you must use this attack that you didn't want to use because you

Again no lie, it gives more options .... definitely YES, the options YOU WANT, .. obviously NO, so deal with it.



Don't FORCE us to use crappier skills as a stepping stone to the ones we want to use.

The ones, we want, the ones we want .... hmmmm, our deduction was right, you just want to spam the hi-level skills and have already STAMPED all the other skills CRAPPY ... great job .. now all the barbarian skills besides the ONES YOU WANT are CRAPPY ... oh god .... did you even listen to what the devs said during the interviews and gameplay vids, they wanted the players to use all the skills and not have one or two skills that people use and every thing else is crap ( like D2 which you seem to be so trapped into ) .. NO, not in D3.


That is fury.

NO

Fury shares some points with mana that makes all your arguments mute.


Fury Depletes with use of skills
Mana Depletes with use of skills



There are two ways to restore Fury: Attacking / Getting Hit
There are two ways to refill mana: Mana Globes / Mana potions



With zero fury you can --> attack normally, use all non-fury skills.
With zero mana you can --> attack normally ( that's all you can do ).


After few seconds in battle with Fury --> you build up loads of Fury and become a killing machine capable of causing major havoc.
After few seconds in battle with mana --> if there are no mana globes nearby or you don't have any potions ( wish are rare in D3 ) you are screwed.


The only major difference between the two is that:

Mana regenerates slowly by itself --> after being exhausted it requires either rare mana potions or getting to a mana globe to refill it quickly.
Fury depletes overtime slowly --> but you can have unlimited supply as long as you are in the thick of battle.


Each one of them has its pros and cons, you only see the cons of Fury without admitting any of its pros, and if you fail to see that, well .... your argument totally fail ( specially after you clearly seem to just want to spam the hi-level skills and have already STAMPED all the other skills CRAPPY ... great job .. now all the barbarian skills besides the ONES YOU WANT are CRAPPY ):scratchchin:

[NioTumsSpik]

And why the hell should a barbarian use mana in the first place? Its not like hes using any magic or casting any spells, all his attacks are physical...

[Corpseus]

exactly, build us different skills mechanically/damage wise that we WANT to switch between. Don't FORCE us to use crappier skills as a stepping stone to the ones we want to use.

Hopefully fury is implemented in a reasonable way, but in truth it just seams limiting, regardless of what all the people who have already played the game extensively, and know exactly how it is going to work say.


But look at it this way, it is a mellee char, so taking damage while chasing down kiting enemies is pretty much the norm, so all the "build up" (but still totally relavant:whistling: ) skills can be skipped anyway.

[Jcakes]

Fury does also allow skills/balancing that you would not be able to do with mana. For example:

Battle Rage
* Active Skill
* Max Rank: 1
* Description: The barbarian enters a rage which increases damage done by 100% and increases Critical damage by 30%. Lasts for 15 seconds.
* Fury Cost: 50

how would you do this with mana, nerf it to the ground (as you can have it on constantly) put it on a timer (then people just wait out the timer before each battle) etc. It is abilities like this that work well with fury as you can have some OP skills, that are only useable if you are in the thick of battle.

[Flux]

As far as I know, the only detailed info about Fury was posted by um... me. In my blizzcon barbarian gameplay report (http://diablo.incgamers.com/blog/comments/barbarian-game-play-and-skill-tree-discussion/). I'll quote most of it:


The biggest change to the Barbarian’s interface and controls comes from Fury. See the Fury page in the Diablo Wiki for full details. In brief, Fury is the new mana, but only (so far) for Barbarians. Fury replaces mana, but unlike the old blue bulb, it does not fill up when not in use. Barbarians have zero Fury to start with, and only build it up during combat, when they land successful strikes to their enemies. As soon as the Barb is not fighting, the Fury starts to drain away, and it seeps out quite quickly. I frequently filled my Fury bulb completely during a fight, paused to pick up an item or two, then ran to find more monsters, and arrived just as my Fury went down to nothing.

My Barbarian had about 100 Fury at level 7 or 8, and while I didn’t get to experiment with it that persistently, I could see enough to like the concept. The Barbarian is designed to be a melee battling character. He gets all sorts of bonuses while in combat, and many of his skills only trigger when he scores critical hits. (Conveniently, plenty of other skills boost his critical hit chances.) With that design goal, the fact that he has to fight to build up Fury, and has to expend Fury to use most of his skills, is only natural. It looks like an expert Barbarian player will be most at home when surrounded by enemies, and will have to learn to cycle quickly through a variety of attack skills and war cry-style buffs to stay alive and able to smash his enemies.

The only big Fury expenditure available in the Blizzcon build was Battle Rage, a wary cry that boosted the Barbarian’s damage by 100%, increased critical damage by 30%, and lasted for 15 seconds. (With one point in it, which was all the BlizzCon build allowed to active skills.) That was half, or more, of my total Rage, but I never minded spending it. The combat improvements were substantial, and since Rage faded away so quickly, I had a constant feeling of "use it or lose it." Whenever I finished a battle with a full Rage bulb, I tried to remember to cast this war cry, since the precious juice would all be gone by the time I got to the next battle anyway.

I didn't get to play enough to really figure it out, but some skills built up Fury; not just regular attacks. I'd get into combat and start using some of the lower level skills (http://www.diablowiki.net/Barbarian_Skills); cleave and bash and such, and I'd see my Fury increasing rapidly. The whole bulb would fill up on just a few monsters, after I landed 4 or 5 hits to each. However, since there weren't really any skills available at Blizzcon that required Fury. Battle Rage was a buffing warcry that took about half my total Fury, and I sometimes remembered to use that, and noticed the improvement.

Fury is somewhat akin to the D2 Barb's Frenzy, the Assassin's power ups, or the Druid orbiting leach ball. You have to land some hits to start up the skill, but once you do your killing power is much increased for the duration. But you have to keep topping it off or it runs out and you're back to normal.

We know nothing yet about how Fury will be handled long term. Some skills slow the rate of drain (kind of like reverse Warmth), but we don't know if equipment will do the same, or add to your potential max, or how much the pool will grow with levels. The mechanic is that barbs aren't super powerful all the time; they've got to engage in combat to get charged up. That allows the team to actually give the barb more powerful skills, since he can't use them constantly without any real cost, as he can in D2.

[Sightblinder]

All the whining about fury is really pretty laughable. People cried about the rage mechanic in WoW for the first few months too. Like it or not, it DOES add a new dynamic to playing the character. Gone are the days of spamming one attack. There seems to be plenty of "buildup" abilities that require no fury, and in fact it seems like every time I look at the barb skill trees there are less abilities that require it.

Besides, a lot of you fail to look at the other side of the issue, that being barbs not having to wait on refilling mana. You just kill your group and move on, building and retaining fury for your big flashy attacks. Another side effect of not having theses spammable right away is that it gives blizz some freedom to make the attacks more powerful than they could if they were mana-based.

[Knight_Wolf]

@Sightblinder, you really summed it up quite well, here .... have a cookie ^_^

[FrostDoombringer]

I just finished reading through this whole thread and the arguments presented by Teleportwtf and Knight_Wolf. I may not remember all that was said but I have a few things to point out or sum up. If my memory has failed me or I have misunderstood any part of the argument I apologize.

First to Teleportwtf, yes Fury does put some limitations on the kind of Character you wish to create. You’re absolutely right in thinking that you will have to use some of the attacks you deem lame in order to unleash your uber attacks. The workaround you speak of will apply to you. You are trying to create a D2 Character and in order to do so you will have to work around this little mechanic. Has Knight-Wolf and others have said there are plenty of ways to keep those moves you deem lame down to minimal use. However as you may have guessed by the number of people posting here, there are plenty of players out there who think the fury is a good, maybe not great, mechanic that makes the game more interesting for them. If there was no Fury they could not make what they deem a more interesting Character. It wouldn’t be economically viable to use the lower skills, they do not find lame, when all one would need to do is up the massive damage skills. Without Fury you can’t make a Character who makes good use of a broader range of skills, even if they are lame to you Teleportwtf. So while you could make your D2 Barbarian with minimal “Lame Skill Usage” others would not be able to make the builds they see as more interesting. It is a balancing issue that Blizzard is trying to address. I for one hated the fact that in D2 your beginning skills were Neigh useless. To me it felt like I wasted those first 6-12 skill points. You have my sympathy Teleportwtf but not my empathy.

Second point, the Fury system makes the Barbarian even more opposite of the Wizzard. If the Barbarian has Fury and the Wizzard has Mana then their battle tactics will wax a wane at the opposite times. The Wizzard will start off unleashing massive destruction but have to rely on deemed “Lame” spells once the Mana is depleted. The Wizzard will have to manage her Mana better in D3 because of the scarcity of potions. The Barbarian on the other hand will start out with said “Lame” attacks, but has the battle continues he will become more and more powerful. The Barbarian will be able to finish with a much bigger bang then the Wizzard. IMO this suites the Barbarian well. It’s a little Incredible Hulkish but I think the Idea of your Opponent getting stronger while your health is getting lower is extremely unnerving. If it was Mana based the Barbarian would be in the same boat has the Wizzard. This is an actual question to Teleportwtf, Would you rather start strong or end strong? You have your starters and you have your finishers. They both have their strengths and their weaknesses. Which would your rather be. Personally I think the role of Finisher suites a Barbarian well.

Something I forgot to mention earlier: If there will be Mana potions to help with the Mana users then there will most likely be Fury Potions for the Barabarian. Wizzards will use Mana Potions to continue Nukeing and Barabarians will most likely use Fury Potions to start off with a bigger Bang.

Side note: If you are reading the “you are absolutely right” or “Will” parts of my entry please know that everything I said here is In My Opinion.

[Akse]

One of the nice thing about Fury is at least that it's different and makes playing the Barb a lot different than the mana using classes.

I think Wizards had that skill that make monsters drop mana globes with a chance %. I think barb had those Fury preservation skills that help you to maintain higher fury or gain more of it from hits.