Daggers need some love

[shadowsfire]

i love daggers in games and in most games daggers can usually compete with the best of the weapons out there but in d2 they lacked in all areas. they came down to poison dmg that was only good in normal or that dagger with 100% MF. not to mention only 2 slots for runes crippled them entirely. i understand that claws were the new dagger and whirlwind sin was sick as hell but id love to see some dagger skill trees and possibly unq or recipe daggers that do more than just poison.

you could have all range of life leach, poison, crit, stun, instant ko, crazy atk speed, magic, damage daggers and maybe some awesome duel wielding to go along with them. and lets throw in a better looking stance than holding it over your head and poking them.

[EzkiMo]

1. Ever heard of Wizardspike? Right, maybe it's not a very good stabbing weapon but it's a dagger after all...

2. I don't see how a dagger can compete with a sword/axe/mace of any size. It simply lacks weight (on the other hand it's hard to shoot fireballs in reality too)1

[Gigashadow]

I personally think daggers are the wrong weapon to use in a game like Diablo. It's a stabbing, one-kill weapon, and in Diablo you kill tons of heavy, armored enemies...

[KSoldier]

Daggers do have their place. My D2 Barb uses a "Heart Carver" rondel as my alternate weapon and switch over to it when "finding item" over a corpse. It may not have its place as a melee weapon, but some could have magic bonuses which make them appealing to some players.

Also, it would be cool to see a dagger add a bonus to a second weapon, with a secondary attack or blocking - allowing any character to dual-wield them.

[Jack Carael]

It's basically Heart Carver, Gull, Wizardspike or The Diggler, yeah - and the only reason The Diggler is in that list is because its disadvantage is an advantage in some cases.

In my opinion, Assassins should've had something to do with daggers. However, I can imagine it would be hard to implement something like that if daggers are already in the game and Assassins are not.
Also, Necromancers were already sort of tied to daggers (and wands, ofcourse).

Basically, like in real life, swords and axes are in most cases more useful than daggers. But I agree, it would be cool if they did something with daggers. Tying in to the one-stab-kill aspect of daggers, assassination-style, wouldn't it be a good idea to give all daggers a (small) inherent Critical Strike chance or something similar?

[stillman]

It looks like the OP mentioned what I was going to say, but just to add...

I think it would be hard for Blizzard to come up with realistic ways of making daggers powerful--this is a challenge they should embrace. Maybe daggers could have the fastest attack speed in the game by a longer shot that in d2. So the only way to make the fastest possible attacker is to use daggers.
It makes sense because they're small and easy to use/stab/swing with.

Duel-wielding also makes perfect sense. Maybe, how about EVERY class can duel wield daggers, but this is the only weapon class that allows duel wield (except barbs of course).

Then there could be another special bonus where daggers by nature have a 10% chance of critcal hit on every dagger (even white). There's the 50% damage to undead on maces, so I don't see why daggers should be left out of a natural mod.

...basically, the OP's ideas enforced to an extent that daggers cannot be ignored! I think they have a true place in any fantasy type of game. They might also need a few more dagger skills (like posion dagger or a martial arts skill).

And one more thing: ignoring defense! Daggers are perfect for getting in through chinks in the armor.

I thought of a few more things: Life leech is likely out, but maybe (you guessed it) daggers could be the only items in the game that spawn with life leech. So you could get leech, but the downside is you're using a dagger so you don't do godly damage. Sounds fair enough.

Magic daggers that you can throw and they return to the hand of the thrower. Other throwing weapons (like spears/java/axes) would have the annoying stack size mod and cannot return like daggers.

They could have encouraging unique dagger names, like Diablo's Dagger--the knife that the d1 warrior used to pluck out Diablo's soulstone.

Finally: daggers have got to be the easiest weapons anyone could learn to use (beacuse of their simplicity and lightness). Maybe they could have NO level requirement for even the best daggers in the game.

[BAMFSpecialOps]

I would love to see daggers have a place, but it would be hard to make them work. If there is a rouge type character then they could make it into a bow/dagger type character, massive crits, bleeding, whatever.

[konfeta]

The problem is, it's not possibly to "realistically" make daggers powerful, just like unarmed fighting - it simply does not work unless you start chucking magic in it.

So giving them unique magic mods is indeed probably the right way to make them useful - make them into a utility weapon that doesn't compare in killing speed to the big hitters but can hold effects other weapons cannot.

...basically, the OP's ideas enforced to an extent that daggers cannot be ignored! I think they have a true place in any fantasy type of game. They might also need a few more dagger skills (like posion dagger or a martial arts skill).

Yes, they have a true place in fantasy - however Diablo isn't exactly a universe where you sneak around assassinating bad guys 1 by 1. Daggers don't hit as hard as other weapons, they don't penetrate as far, and it's more difficult to use a shorter weapon than a longer one - you expose yourself too much when you actually try to hit with a dagger. I just don't see them being mainstream weapons. (Plus, using a dagger as a combat weapon is more difficult than using a club or the sort)

[BAMFSpecialOps]

If they have an actual place in the game, I would say it would have to be with the ranged character. Using ranged skills but if all else fails then that would be the back up weapon, or against bosses/etc. They could put in a skill that is sorta like charge where you rush up to an enemy and attack, if you click on an enemy in the pack of a pack then you rush through the pack while slicing everyone within range. You still wouldn't be doing zomfgwtf!? damage but it seems like the best way to actually make the dagger an option.

[NASE]

daggers aren't that useless. Why can't you all see these things. it's not because you can't use them perfectly on paladins that they are useless.

Lets see:
Ghostflame: perfect it does 197 damage. That's more or equal to the comparable fast swords and maces though you gain idt. And some magic damage can't hurt. If I every find a perfect one, I'm making a daggerzon.
Fleshripper: the damage might not be that spectacular though mods like crushing blow, deadly strike, openwounds, prevent monsters heal and slow make it a decent weapon for characters that don't use their weapon to attack. It's far from a bad weapon for kicksins.
Wizardspike: it lacks skills. That's true though for each other mod, it can compete with the super expensive runewords.
the Gull: as far as I know, this baby packs the highest mf certainly if you can't afford to waste ists in your weapon. it's the perfect switch weapon for mf sorcerers that can't afford the most expensive equipment.
Spectral Shard: it packs 50 fcr and 10 to all resistances. however, it's cheap as hell. You could probably find people giving you cash just to take one from them. It's very good on budget casters, certainly on non-ladder as spirits are quite expensive.

So In conclusions, if you look at the game the ways it should be. And that is by ignoring the duped high runes as we wouldn't all be running around with several high runes if they wouldn't dupe them. Daggers aren't that bad. that main problem I see the fact that they are range 1. For the other aspects, they really have their place in them game.


[edit]
If you want to talk about underused weapons, consider crossbows or perhaps even one-handed maces.

[BAMFSpecialOps]

Well see NASE you have just stated the point of this thread, the better daggers in the game are not used for melee. Wiz/Shard/Gull are more of caster weapons, Fleshripper is a GREAT kicker weapon. People in this thread are pointing out the lack of daggers for actually swinging/stabbing.

Buriza/Astreons(spelling) are both commonly used, I hardly ever even pick up a dagger when I'm untwinked in SP.

[Kaysaar]

The main difficulty in effective implementing a melee dagger into a game like Diablo 1 or 2, is that daggers are finesse weapons first and foremost, which is hard to swing with a melee character in this sort of slug fest of a game. In the Diablo series, power and damage are king, which leave finesse characters high and dry.

[Doctor Salvador]

Maybe daggers should be put in as a class specific item to a character that has skills such as Poison Dagger, and . . . uh, Super Poison Dagger? Maybe it's time Daggers are left behind, because ATM I can't think of any dagger-based skill that doesn't involve poison AND can easily be implemented into a Diablo game.

Skills such as special one-hit-KO's by way of slitting the throat with a knife/dagger do NOT belong in Diablo, any attacks involving doing a special wound to an enemy causing them to bleed out would just be a poison dagger rehash, so maybe knives/daggers should stay in the 'caster' category with items like Wizardspike.

[NASE]

I were thinking. how about making them the primary weapon of a shapeshifting class. Eventually, a werewolf/werebear shouldn't be using big mauls or complicate things like ling swords - in DII, this is represented by not showing the weapon.
In DIII, they could make the weapon visible though limit the use to the easy to use weapons like daggers, perhaps clubs and small shields - heaters. Eventually, the use of a dagger isn't that much different from using a claw. Then you could have three different skills, those that function with a claw - DII's fire claw - those that function with a different part - DII's rabies - and skills that function with weapons - DII's fury.
Eventually coming down to the question. Will the character dual wield claws, dual wield dagger, go dagger/claw, claw/shield or dagger/shield.

Then you have a mele class using daggers that doesn't have to be worse then the other mele classes as the power of the animals makes up for the lack of true fighting power of the dagger.

[zooply]

I have to agree with the others about daggers vs. weapons for combat. They are better for mass killing, have longer range, and do more damage. So this of course relegates daggers to utility and specialization areas.

(some/most of these are of course copied)

Ignore defense - Since a dagger is such a small weapon it could get through gaps in armor.

Range/Damage - Any benefits a dagger gets are obviously going to be off-set by the lack of range and physical damage it can do.

Critical Strike - Each dagger could have an inherent chance for critical strike.

Open Wounds - Same as above, just with bleeding instead.

Gouge - You stab the enemies in the eyes. This would give such things as blindness, decreased attack rating, misfired spells, etc.

Throat cutting - A very high damage attack with open wounds. With sneaking abilities, this could be used to take out leaders in a pack of demons, or slowly take out a force one by one.

Poison - Since it is able to ignore defense, it would be able to deliver poison much easier.

Utility - The perfect example mentioned was Heart Carver. They could also be used to maybe scrape away at something in a wall, or if survival skills are in the game it could be used in those areas.

Throwing - Already in D2, daggers would be great for throwing.

Backup weapon - In case your weapon breaks, you can have a small dagger you can pull out quickly in emergencies.

Weapon switch - They could include a short lag to switch between regular weapons. However smaller weapons such as a dagger would be much faster.

Rogue alternate - Somebody who relies on a bow should need speed and maneuverability, and in close-up situations, they'd rely on something like such as a dagger, short sword, etc.

_________________________________

As mentioned, I don't see daggers as the weapon of choice for fighting off legions of demons. However a dagger could be a great finesse and utility weapon.

[niksnickers]

i love daggers in games and in most games daggers can usually compete with the best of the weapons out there but in d2 they lacked in all areas. they came down to poison dmg that was only good in normal or that dagger with 100% MF. not to mention only 2 slots for runes crippled them entirely. i understand that claws were the new dagger and whirlwind sin was sick as hell but id love to see some dagger skill trees and possibly unq or recipe daggers that do more than just poison.

you could have all range of life leach, poison, crit, stun, instant ko, crazy atk speed, magic, damage daggers and maybe some awesome duel wielding to go along with them. and lets throw in a better looking stance than holding it over your head and poking them.

I agree completely. Maybe twin elven daggers as I have mentioned in another thread? I have always loved the daggers, but by daggers I don't mean those puny little dirks that D2 calls daggers. I mean the long, majestic blades that you hold in a sick stance. I suppose the claws were all right in D2, but the swipes weren't very interesting.

[konfeta]

I mean the long, majestic blades

You know, at that point you might as well call them short swords.

[niksnickers]

short, not broad

[Tyrone]

There'd have to be a class that relies on daggers for them to have any real use.

Which would be AWESOME!!!111