D&D Makes it to DIII....

[Akimbo]

Alright, just a short rant, really as simple as this:

Not liking the look of Wizard so much, would be better if the spells wern't all seemingly based on D&D spells :-/ even if it was simply a rename.

[melianor]

I agree on the use of D&D terminology and spell setup, but on the contrary i like that twist. Maybe its not that original to what the DII Sorceress offered as skills.

[Apocalypse]

you could say D2 and even D1 copied D&D if you really wanted to. the only reason people are seeing it so much in D3 is because the D&D video games are alot more popular now and D&D as a whole is more mainstream than before. just cause D3 might use names like magic missle or timestop or whatever does not mean they copy D&D, the rules alone are greatly different

[Gigashadow]

Some spells are similar, some are not. *shruggs* I don't really care.

[konfeta]

Do you have any idea how difficult it would be to make a spellcaster class that's not doing something DnD already did? The thing has thousands of classes and tens thousands of spells.

[stillman]

But all that would be necessary, for me anyways, is a very simple name change. Like instead of magic missile, why not call it, idk, bone spirit? Bone spirit is definitely Diablo. They could just make up some excuse in the lore/description as to why it behaves a bit differently and why it does arcane damage unlike the necro's bone spirit, like the wizard altered it to her liking for her own selfish purposes, yadda yadda.

Maybe bone spirit was a bad example, but I'm sure there are lots of good names for it besides magic missile. I suggested this in another thread, and everyone said "Well it's a missile and it's magic; what do you expect them to call it? There are no alternative names!" Then, people came up with stupid sounding names for it on purpose just to support their argument. But how about nice sounding names like arcane missile? Would it be so hard to find an original name for it?

And look at stone skin. Would it be so hard to call it steel skin? Blizzard workers are being paid to come up with stuff, this is their big chance to come up with cool names, and instead they just swipe the most famous D&D terms--the cheapest, easiest thing Blizzard can do.

Basically, I agree with the OP about simple renames.

[Gigashadow]

But all that would be necessary, for me anyways, is a very simple name change.Personally, renames just make the game look like a copycat.

Like instead of magic missile, why not call it, idk, bone spirit?Bone spirit has a special niche in Diablo... so, no.

But how about nice sounding names like arcane missile? Would it be so hard to find an original name for it?And how is arcane missile different from magic missile? Same thing just in profile...

Would it be so hard to call it steel skin?And how does that sound?

Blizzard workers are being paid to come up with stuff, this is their big chance to come up with cool names, and instead they just swipe the most famous D&D terms--the cheapest, easiest thing Blizzard can do.Good luck beating a game series that has been there from the test of time and has incorporated into itself tons of minds that were not paid and paid little (thus working on pure enthusiasm). I doubt you can beat DnD in quantity and quality. The most you can do is make your own world. Blizzard chose not to do that... so...

DII had tons of DnD spells, btw.

[konfeta]

Blizzard workers are being paid to come up with stuff, this is their big chance to come up with cool names, and instead they just swipe the most famous D&D terms--the cheapest, easiest thing Blizzard can do.

Blizzard workers are paid for making a good game, not waste days trying to inject "originality" into their projects by trying to come up with convoluted names for spells.

[Mizantrop]

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/main.asp?x=d2/diabloii,3

Now you can play the Diablo II computer game as a tabletop D&D roleplaying game

Fun fun fun!

[shadowsfire]

its all been done before. to truly come up with original spells and even names can make them look ridiculous by now. even in d&d games theres spells and skillz that just make you go umm oook, someones trying really hard,

[Sein Schatten]

And look at stone skin. Would it be so hard to call it steel skin? Blizzard workers are being paid to come up with stuff, this is their big chance to come up with cool names, and instead they just swipe the most famous D&D terms--the cheapest, easiest thing Blizzard can do.

Basically, I agree with the OP about simple renames.

I am certain, if Stone would be Steel you would see whines about clearly stolen, renamed ideas. ;)

[Frostraven]

I like the fact that they blantantly copied D&D skills.

I've always wanted to play a proper D&D game.
Proper.
Not D&D online or NWN.

[konfeta]

Er, define proper D&D game? Because Diablo is about as far from the "essence of DnD" as you can get while remaining within "kill bad things with pointy sticks and pretty lights" realm.

[That_Other_Guy]

Personally I'm excited at the chance to use these spells that pay homage to the Wizard/Sorcerer of DnD fame. It makes me think that they're different parts of the same universe, and the dangerous/forgotten lore the Wizard broke in to read about was related to that multiversal knowledge.

[Drytchnath]

At least they aren't giving us skills like "Tasha's Uncontrollable Hideous Laughter." First time I read that spell name/description i just thought "wtf!?"

[Frostraven]

Er, define proper D&D game? Because Diablo is about as far from the "essence of DnD" as you can get while remaining within "kill bad things with pointy sticks and pretty lights" realm.

Well.
Point is: No computer D&D game has EVER been true to the rules, and I say:
Either do it all the way, or use the skills and spells to do it an entirely other way.

I hate the half-way D&D games that pretend to be D&D, but are only as close to D&D as... er... Serious Sam is to Call of Duty.

[Apocalypse]

lol proper D&D game in the diablo world, now thats funny

[Frostraven]

lol proper D&D game in the diablo world, now thats funny

It has D&D skills/spells, but not lore or characters.
Which is better than D&D skills, screwed up D&D rules and screwed up D&D characters -- like every computer D&D game to date.

It's better to use some gameplay elements, and stay the heck away from the rules -- than calling the game a D&D game and NOT sticking to the rules.

a) A D&D game -- Great!
b) A game that calls itself D&D, which isn't, but still works -- Ok
c) A game that calls itself D&D but only does it half-heartedly -- Not great
d) A game that doesn't call itself D&D but has some D&D elements -- Great!

All computer D&D games to date fall into category c).
Diablo III falls into category d).

I like category a), can accept category b) and I like d) -- but I hate category c).

[Apocalypse]

diablo is nothing like D&D and i hope it stays that way

[nicro tower]

You can't say nothing, as all/most fantasy games borrow from d&d. While Blizzard might of used more original spells at least it fits the mage's character. And like Drytchnath said, no useless/non combative spells like hideous laughter or summon 5 pounds of iron. Or know alignment. That was utterly horrible.

[melianor]

Hey, i would have loved to see a spell, at which those Beserkers fall over laughing and dieing from too much laugther :p Would put a nice twist and humor in the game. But Diablo kind of fails concerning humor of in game characters, apart from sarcastic remarks, so it would certainly not fit.

[stillman]

I'd rather see a spell name that's 50% taken from D&D than a spell name that's 100% taken from D&D. Flat out stealing like that is just a sign of weakness.

@ the "d1-2 had D&D spells" argument: Sure, but magic missile and stoneskin are like THE MOST FAMOUS D&D SPELLS KNOWN. Not so many people will notice if firewall or teleport were borrowed. See, firewall is a word found in the dictionary; therefore it's not copying from D&D. Firewall is fair game for any game.

But stoneskin is without a doubt D&D. So is magic missile. It is very clear Blizzard stole it for some reason of lameness.

@ the "it's just going to sound contorted/copycat if they try to come up with different names" argument: Not necessarily. The magic missile in d3 does not behave the same way D&D's magic missile does. For example, d3's magic missile will hit the first thing that gets in its' way towards a target, and d3's magic missile is 'arcane' damage, not just 'damage' like in D&D, and in d3 it leaves a purple glow on the corpses AND it silences on critical hits. They could have named it Arcane Shot and we would be non the wiser.

And d3's stone skin does not work at all like D&D's stoneskin. It's not going to sound like a copycat name if Blizzard comes up with their own name for it.

@ the "Blizzard workers aren't being paid to waste time injecting originality..." argument. First, I believe they are being paid for just that. And it would not take any serious amount of time to come up with non-D&D names for things. I can come up with several in less than 2 minutes.

Look at how awesome some of the barb skills sound. Blizzard could come up with all kinds of awesome names for wizard skills instead of leeching from D&D.

[konfeta]

Ever heard the word "homage?"

Someone at Blizzard thought it would be more cool to pay homage to one of the progenitors of modern fantasy as opposed to practicing the tired out game of "come up with cool new names for spells that have been seen thousands times before."

[nicro tower]

Hey, i would have loved to see a spell, at which those Beserkers fall over laughing and dieing from too much laugther :p Would put a nice twist and humor in the game. But Diablo kind of fails concerning humor of in game characters, apart from sarcastic remarks, so it would certainly not fit.

It was a completely horrible spell. It was like a hold person for 1 round with like +500 bonus to save spell... plus it doesn't work as well on other races as they "don't understand your humor". So I doubt the demons would be amused.

[stillman]

konfeta,

You call it homage, I call it theft or plagerizing. When someone copies your essay paper and gets A+ on it, are they paying homage to you? I doubt Blizzard considers this homage; rather it's for more sinister purposes. It sounds more like desperate leeching of D&D's popularity. 'It worked for D&D, we better not take any chances and do the same'

And that's what I don't get. Diablo doesn't need help from D&D. Diablo is hugely popular.

[Keighvin]

Stillman, unless someone affiliated with D&D files a lawsuit, I think you are really overreacting.

[melianor]

konfeta,

You call it homage, I call it theft or plagerizing. When someone copies your essay paper and gets A+ on it, are they paying homage to you? I doubt Blizzard considers this homage; rather it's for more sinister purposes. It sounds more like desperate leeching of D&D's popularity. 'It worked for D&D, we better not take any chances and do the same'

And that's what I don't get. Diablo doesn't need help from D&D. Diablo is hugely popular.

You seriously think Blizzard for the games they brought out, that they need to "steal"? Apart from the Wizard spells the whole game is different, the story does not even touch D&D and has its own agenda since Diablo I. Yes there are similarities to D&D in the spells, for whichever reason.

[yalthar]

Magic missile will definitely also bring back fond memories for anyone who has ever played a MUD (For anyone not familiar with MUDS - they're text-based online roleplaying games, and in many MUDs magic missile is one of the first and most sucky spells you would gain access to as a Mage)

[melianor]

Magic missile will definitely also bring back fond memories for anyone who has ever played a MUD (For anyone not familiar with MUDS - they're text-based online roleplaying games, and in many MUDs magic missile is one of the first and most sucky spells you would gain access to as a Mage)

Nice touch of history. I only played a quite wellknown Middle Earth MUD in my time, but there were no Magic Missiles there. Just Balrogs, Hobbits, Elves and such. Even played Samwise Gamgee for a while.

What about making DIII a MUD :)? ASCII Art, room description, no 3D, lots of loveable readable content. Ah those were the times :cloud9: (guess one can classify me as old now :p)

Seems Magic Missile has quite a history. So i think its fare to blame DIII that they are borrowing thieving from, MUDS too? :crazyeyes: :wink:

[stillman]

You seriously think Blizzard for the games they brought out, that they need to "steal"? Apart from the Wizard spells the whole game is different, the story does not even touch D&D and has its own agenda since Diablo I. Yes there are similarities to D&D in the spells, for whichever reason.

Yes, it's all about capitalism. They are trying to squeeze out every last buck by ripping off famous D&D ideas. Again, they don't need to, but people will do anything for money, even when they already have plenty.

Anyway, I'm through with my one-man crusade on this issue. I made thread about this not too long ago, and literally not a single person agrees with me. When you copy something word for word, it's plagerism/stealing.

Well, see you all in d3 where your barb will have a batman logo on his chest, and insted of a pentagram in Diablo's sanctuary, it will be a MacDonnald's "m". Harry Potter will make an appearance too. And you guys will all think it's cute or something, lol.

PS: If anyone has read The Dark Tower series, you may have noticed that the whole thing went down the toilet because King started dumping loads of famous ideas from other stories into his epic series.

[deadbeater]

D and D also allows a player to make up his or her own spells, on table play that is.. If Blizzard were to allow that in their game...

Besides, it could be that the way D&D presented the spells that Bliz adapted for Diablo were the best.

It's also done to show up the computer game D&D franchise, namely that except for Baldur's Gate and Torment, they generally suck. D&D don't even allow the make-up your own spell online. That sucks.

[konfeta]

Anyway, I'm through with my one-man crusade on this issue. I made thread about this not too long ago, and literally not a single person agrees with me. When you copy something word for word, it's plagerism/stealing.

Let's try this again, because your definition of plagiarism and homage seems to revolve entirely around your like/dislike of the idea being present in the game:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/plagiarism

Hmmm... Sorry, nope, don't see it.

According to your definition or plagiarism, any and every work of fiction that uses the word "fireball" to describe a spell that makes things go boom is plagiarizing. However, if they change the name to "flameball" it immediately and almost magically stops being plagiarizing.

Ok...?

Look, I would agree that you had a case there if Blizzard literally took the DnD wizard, directly copied its spell list and class features such as a Familiar, introduced Vancian spellcasting, and nabbed a couple pages of concept art for good measure to describe their Wizard. But they didn't. They named the a spellcasting class Wizard, threw in a few spells somewhat similar to their DnD counterparts, and then gave them names that most sane people would describe as homage or referencing.

[stillman]

I covered this a bit earlier (page 3) by saying:

"See, firewall is a word found in the dictionary; therefore it's not copying from D&D."

So this goes for fireball too. Fireball is in the dictionary, and it's OK to take things out of the dictionary. But alas, 'stoneskin' is a pure creation of D&D and I think it's wrong to just take the whole thing.
From the site you posted:

"plagiarism

Literary theft. Plagiarism occurs when a writer duplicates another writer's language or ideas and then calls the work his or her own."

I'm considering the 'duplicates' part...and 'ideas' I suppose.
I'm probably wrong to use the term plagiarism, as I guess video games aren't purely works of writing, but I brought it up before based on prinicple (principles which apparently only I have).

I find it a bit wierd that on a forum where cheating is not condoned so many people are OK with (and even support) other kinds of cheating.

To others: I don't think some people should say things like '...so in d3 you get to chose classes and D&D let's you chose classes so that's stealing to? They both have swords, so that's copying?' No, I'm only talking about word for word terms that are VERY clearly D&D derived, and are very famous (as I pointed out earlier, stoneskin and magic missile are among D&D's most famous spells).

[konfeta]

People aren't "Ok" with plagiarism. The point is, you are the first person I have met who actually views something that is widely acknowledged as super-obvious referencing as plagiarism.

Read the definition you posted again:

and then calls the work his or her own.

At what point did Blizzard come out and directly claimed "yeah, we invented this Wizard thing and spells, totally original?" You are looking at a company that has a long history of putting cultural references all over their games...

Or is having a Terran Dropship quote Aliens "plagiarism" too?

[Divisionary]

Magic Missile is not a duplicate of the DnD spell.

Magic Missile in Diabo III may silence; the spreading missiles do not attack one target; the spell seems to be automatic rather than targeting. Magic Missile is Teeth in disguise + auto-targeting. It has little relation with the DnD counterpart, which progressively grows in power to destroy one target that was indicated.

Stone Skin is a direct resemblance of DnD Stone Skin, hence it's a reference, not plagiarism.

Taking Magic Missile in its entirety and renaming it to Arcane Arrow would be plagiarism.

[AkumaSlayer]

I'm pretty sure Heroes of Might and Magic use a spell called Stone Skin... seriously, what's the problem? As long as it sounds cool and nobody minds Blizzard using the names, then it's good.

It's similiar to saying Warcraft should rename their Orcs because Warhammer used the name first (and plenty of authors used it before that, like Tolkien).

[Mennethitus]

Heroes does use the spell stone skin as well as the spell magic missile (might be magic arrow cant remember).

The point is spells like fireball, fireblot (ice, lighting...), stone skin, magic arrow/missile and such are widely used and accepted spells. It's more like the staple of every mage/wizard magic-user's arsenal. It's the higher level skills or the passives that truly differentiate these classes.

I mean if someone started complaining about the spell meteor what would you want it renamed to? falling rock? wrath of the stars, Stone That Falls From High Above. Even if you came up with a good name, whats the point? You know its meteor I know it's meteor, so why not call it meteor?

[ciobanica]

First off, the only way you can plagiarize (maybe) D&D is by copying the game system or the various settings in almost their entirety... because none of it it's in any way original. The only thing i can recall they can actually stop people from using is the name Ilithid (which is trademarked i think), because D&D came up with it, but not the creature concept (Chtulhu anyone?!).

And changing the names is even worse in case of a suit because it shows they knew that they shouldn't have taken those concepts.

Second, D&D has so many spells that you can really make new ones that the don't have somewhere.


Sorry, but the only good argument that i can think of in your favour is that it sounds too much like D&D, which can be annoying for obvious reasons (just ask marketing people).

[Kaeros]

I am now dumber after reading this thread.

[prion]

hmm if I have skin...and I decide to harden it and make it like stone...

I dunno what else to call that

[konfeta]

Non-Hindering Selective Self Petrification of the Epidermis?

[AkumaSlayer]

hmm if I have skin...and I decide to harden it and make it like stone...

I dunno what else to call that

Skinstone!

[Sass]

hmm if I have skin...and I decide to harden it and make it like stone...

I dunno what else to call thatHarden! No, wait, that was Metapod...

I like the little references.:whistling: After all, what would we call Lightning? It's used, but should it be "Shock Line"? Somethings just can't be feasibly different in terms of names.

[stillman]

You guys are just diverting the problem. As I mentioned, it's not about words that are in the dictionary, like 'lightning'. Lightning is fair game for anyone to use.

Stoneskin is not in the dictionary; it's in D&D. It's a D&D creation. So it's kind of like you make a TV show for kids and the host is a big purple dinosaur named 'Barney'. But didn't someone else already do that? Aren't you just copying someone else's success?

They say leech is not in the game. I don't know about that. Looks like Blizzard is leeching from other's successes. Not that they have to, which makes it sad.

Anyway, I admit plagerism might not be the right term for what's going on, as we can't see the credits in the game. But the fact remains that many D&D spells are put in d3. Why?

[Keighvin]

Well, then someone should complain about the FF XI spell Stoneskin, since apparently Square Enix is also leeching off of DnD.

[AkumaSlayer]

Same as 3D0 and countless other software brands, not to mention fantasy novels. We can't even be 100% certain that D&D invented the term..

[konfeta]

Anyway, I admit plagerism might not be the right term for what's going on, as we can't see the credits in the game. But the fact remains that many D&D spells are put in d3. Why?

Homage.

Respect.

Reference.

Tribute.

Reverence.

Fandom.

The reason they named these spells that way is so that people would recognize the names. That's not a behavior a plagiarist uses. The whole idea is that they adapted a bunch of DnD spells so people would look at it and go, "Hey, cool, check this out - Blizzard people play DnD!"

[Leugi]

The reason they named these spells that way is so that people would recognize the names. That's not a behavior a plagiarist uses. The whole idea is that they adapted a bunch of DnD spells so people would look at it and go, "Hey, cool, check this out - Blizzard people play DnD!"

Yep...

That's why no spell is called Vizjerei Blast or something... spells need generic names...

And Stoneskin is not a blurry odd name... I mean, if you say 'Stoneskin" you can already imagine your skin turning to stone...

Another names could be "Stone Form" (which sounds more like a metamorphosis) or "Living statute" (Which sounds like a summoned", but both names are way mor unclear than "stoneskin"..

[Mizh00]

But all that would be necessary, for me anyways, is a very simple name change. Like instead of magic missile, why not call it, idk, bone spirit? Bone spirit is definitely Diablo. They could just make up some excuse in the lore/description as to why it behaves a bit differently and why it does arcane damage unlike the necro's bone spirit, like the wizard altered it to her liking for her own selfish purposes, yadda yadda.

Maybe bone spirit was a bad example, but I'm sure there are lots of good names for it besides magic missile. I suggested this in another thread, and everyone said "Well it's a missile and it's magic; what do you expect them to call it? There are no alternative names!" Then, people came up with stupid sounding names for it on purpose just to support their argument. But how about nice sounding names like arcane missile? Would it be so hard to find an original name for it?

And look at stone skin. Would it be so hard to call it steel skin? Blizzard workers are being paid to come up with stuff, this is their big chance to come up with cool names, and instead they just swipe the most famous D&D terms--the cheapest, easiest thing Blizzard can do.

Basically, I agree with the OP about simple renames.

You're whining about the name of a spell. Honestly, what's wrong pal? By the by, if they called it Arcane Missile then you would be whining about how similar it is to WoW.

[nicro tower]

By the way, in reply to an earlier post by stillman, Steel Skin is already a druid spell in D&D. Basically a weaker version of stoneskin.

[lunarleif]

In DnD, magic missile always hits and as you level up, there are more of them. Never Winter Nights was a weird game, they didn't balance it well. Finding stuff :nono: was impossible, I still beat it though... Druid had stone skin in NWN, it was useful.
Muds sound fun, I created a semi-one a while ago, but it was brief and didn't work to well.
It was a completely horrible spell. It was like a hold person for 1 round with like +500 bonus to save spell... plus it doesn't work as well on other races as they "don't understand your humor". So I doubt the demons would be amused.
You'd be better off with a control demon spell or banish...
I agree with a previous post, I'm dumber for reading this.

[lunarleif]

Also, Diablo 1 was craeted :thumbup: when it was the original. They semi-applied that to D2 and if they didn't for D3, you would all be complaining.

Example: The rich kid hates his dad since he got a red Ferrari instead of a blue one.

[GoldenBird]

You guys are just diverting the problem. As I mentioned, it's not about words that are in the dictionary, like 'lightning'. Lightning is fair game for anyone to use.

Stoneskin is not in the dictionary; it's in D&D. It's a D&D creation. So it's kind of like you make a TV show for kids and the host is a big purple dinosaur named 'Barney'. But didn't someone else already do that? Aren't you just copying someone else's success?

They say leech is not in the game. I don't know about that. Looks like Blizzard is leeching from other's successes. Not that they have to, which makes it sad.

Anyway, I admit plagerism might not be the right term for what's going on, as we can't see the credits in the game. But the fact remains that many D&D spells are put in d3. Why?

The words "magic" and "missile" are also in the dictionary. "Barney" would not be.

Things like spells need to be generic. Like a previous poster said, if you named it something like Vzjeri blast (or however you spell it), people who don't know the lore are gonna be like "wtf?!?!".

And why does everyone make such a big deal about it being so apparently close to DnD? Couldn't you accuse DnD of being a copycat of any fantasy game before it? And all of those games copycats of whatever was before it?

Lets face it guys, it's impossible to create anything totally original,no matter what they come up with we're going to find similarities in it to something else (which people will whine endlessly about). And why waste time when we know this.

And really, renaming just makes them look more like pathetic copycats.

[lunarleif]

Personally Vizjerei blast sounds cool, but is to elemental for the wizard perhaps?