Death Proof - unbalanced?

[Naja]

Apparently, the Barbarian gets a higher level skill called "Death Proof", that resurrects him with 30% of his maximum health after he dies. The skill

Personally, I think this is total bull****.

Besides overpowering the Barbarian in comparison with the other 4 classes, having a death-cheating skill devalues Hardcore mode.

Death should be final. Period.

[Apocalypse]

as of now i would say, everything in this game is still unbalanced. other games have self res skills and it seems they are popular there so maybe bliz feels it will work in d3 also. i personally think it is crap mainly in hc mode(like you said). looking over his entire tree makes it seem to me like a first time diablo player could play a barb in hc without worries. so many skills to keep him alive

in the end i am unsure this skill will even remain in the final game, i dont believe they are past the point of removing skills that dont work out well

[erics]

You're assuming it works in hardcore.

All it's really doing is saving the barb from traveling back from the last wp/checkpoint. Doesn't sound that bad to me.

[Apocalypse]

You're assuming it works in hardcore.

All it's really doing is saving the barb from traveling back from the last wp/checkpoint. Doesn't sound that bad to me.

if it does not work in hc or pvp then it really is not that bad. then again with the way the game is now i dont see a need to invest in life saving measures really at all. with no death penelty whats the big deal with dying anyway

[Keighvin]

Well, as has been said, everything is unbalanced right now, and from what I've read, it's probably not a true res so much as an emergency health boost.

[Shayagor]

Well I gotta say that I don't like this skill as it's described right now. We still know that a lot of changes will happen (I hope the skill gets removed) but it leads to an unfair advantage from other classes.

We know the barb is a tank and should pwn all infront, but to be able to resurrect is just cheap. You have checkpoints so it's not like you have to run a long way and so far we don't know what the death penalty is (if there is going to be one).

Now form a HC point of view...well this skill is terrible. Can you imagine the barb gets 30% chance to auto res and the rest of the clases die...and having the skill for pve only is something I don't see blizz doing.

I know we are still far away from a D3 launch but this skill has to be worked on...I don't see people being happy with it (unless you play barb :highfive:). The worst thing that could happen (IMO) is that they include a skill like this one for each class...

[Culicidae]

I don't know, I think many people are overestimating it's usefulness. From my understanding, what it does is simply recover 30% of the barb's life when the "killing" blow is stuck. This sounds either like the equivalent of a successful shield block + rejuvenation potion, or simply 30% extra health, that is only accessible under certain conditions. I think even Battle Orders is more unbalanced than this.

[jamesisbest]

I agree with Culicidae that I think people are overrating the skill. When you are overwhelmed and killed, when you get resurrected to 30% health it is likely you will be quickly brought back to 0% health again. In Warcraft III heroes with resurrection weren't unbalanced, often times if I died and got resurrected I was usually killed shortly after I was resurrected. Sure it will likely save the barbarian from time to time but I don't think it is an autowin button either.

[poroboszcz]

I second that. The way it seem to work is just giving you the chance of getting 30% additional hp instead of dying. It's like BO but instead of adding HPs on top of your health it provides you some safety limit in critical situations. Not a big deal imo.

[konfeta]

It's not imba enough to save the horse.

[NKlint]

I'm not sure if it triggers after death, it probably prevents lethal damage while giving a 30% heal... It can only be used every 5 minutes (300 seconds)

[Apocalypse]

I'm not sure if it triggers after death, it probably prevents lethal damage while giving a 30% heal... It can only be used every 5 minutes (300 seconds)



nothing like being in a group with a barb and always having to wait for thier 5 minute timer to expire before they move on

[TheReadMenace]

nothing like being in a group with a barb and always having to wait for thier 5 minute timer to expire before they move on

Psshhhh. What stranger ever waits for their one-time teammates on b.net? And unless that Barb is REALLY concerned with a second quick death, I don't forsee any need to wait around for a timer to reset.

I'm undecided about the skill itself. BO is useful for Barbs, but cheap on CtA. I can see Death Proof being good as a backup in a "OMG, pwned!!" situation since they're front-line fighters and potions are scarce, but I don't see anyone retaining the attitude that they're constantly invincible.

[Apocalypse]

he also has a skill that limits the damage he takes when he is under what, 50% hp? so he comes back to life with 30% health and takes less damage? with a skill like leap i see no reason why a barb would not be able to live forever in hc without any worries at all(assuming again these skills work how they sound and stay in game)

[Merick]

he also has a skill that limits the damage he takes when he is under what, 50% hp? so he comes back to life with 30% health and takes less damage? with a skill like leap i see no reason why a barb would not be able to live forever in hc without any worries at all(assuming again these skills work how they sound and stay in game)

You're also assuming enemies aren't incredibly nasty late in the game and the Barb will need all of this to be the damage sponge of the group. We also don't fully know what great defensive skills the rest of the classes will have.

[phool]

A variation on the concept of the skill could be very interesting. The skill is not an inherently overpowered one but the implementation appears to be weak regardless, due to potentially allowing f. Self ressurection is a sensational and inaccurate description of a buff skill that is similar, but probably very much inferior (we don't yet know the value of healing), to one that boosts maximum life by 30% (perhaps going up to 100% at higher levels).

A far better - more intensive, more skilled, high risk/reward - version of this skill would be if it was a very short duration active buff, e.g. 2 seconds, with short cast time, and a far lower cooldown such as 15 seconds. In this way it could be a potentially very effective - but dangerous (if the buff drops a frame too soon or you hit the skill a tiny bit too late, you're dead!) - skill-orientated self heal that doesn't risk resulting in significently slower paced play (players in HC fighting only while this skill is active and going afk otherwise, anyone?). This implementation could also make for some very interesting mind games in pvp.

[Apocalypse]

You're also assuming enemies aren't incredibly nasty late in the game and the Barb will need all of this to be the damage sponge of the group. We also don't fully know what great defensive skills the rest of the classes will have.



its true we do not know what the other classes have, we can only talk about what we know about right now, which is why i think as of now its a bad skill to have in the game. i do not feel it will make the barb some godly never will die char, i think that any skilled player, even semi skilled, can keep a barb going forever with the use of this skill and others such as reduced damage.

on the other hand i assume you would come back with no fury so that in itself is a big hit, just not one i think is enough of a counter balance. i am very interested in seeing where this all leads. could turn out fine, i hated the no attribute thing at first, now i think its fine, maybe this will go down the same road for me

[Raging_Zealot]

Do we even know if you are actually "coming back?" of if this skill just prevents dying. Ie, instead of the killing blow resulting in your death, you instead don't die and gain a little bit of health, like NKlint said. Since it only triggers every 5 minutes, and if it is just like a "oh sweet I got lucky and didn't die this time, but I'm still at low life so I still need to get out of here or finish this quick" type of situation, I don't think it would be too bad. Plus, if it just prevents death, then its not like hes dying and coming back, which would be the biggest problem with HC characters having it. If it just prevents death sometimes I don't think it would really change much in Hardcore. In a similar situation, another character if you close to death would have to pop a potion or grab a healing globe, the Barb, who is always on the front lines taking damage, and needs to be in the thick of it to even employ his attack skills, just has a skill that does it for him. We also don't know if it will work on a % chance to trigger, or if the team will end up changing the way it triggers or how often it can trigger while they are balancing. I can see people getting annoyed if you are actually dead (which should result in the loss of the character in HC mode), and then the character resurrects itself, but if it is just a skill that prevents death when it triggers, and gives you a small bit of health to escape on, I don't think it would change game dynamic that much. I know it seems like the Barbarian has several skills that will help him be difficult to kill, but maybe Blizzard found these were necessary in order for him to be effective in some stages of the game. It's also worth noting that Death Proof, and the skill that adds Damage Reduction after a certain point, are on different skill trees, and even though the DmgRed skill is in a low tier, we still don't know how viable it will be final game to get it to a useful level if you are concentrating on the tree that has Death Proof, which is higher tier. Again, balancing issues could change how effective the DmgRed skill is, making you have to invest lots of points in it, which could be prohibitive to use in addition with Death Proof, we don't know yet really. We just have to hope that Blizzard manages to balance it all.

[stillman]

^No paragraph stucture [grumbles, grumbles].

So, you're OK if it heals you at 1% of your health but not if it's 0%? What's the difference there, really? No matter how you paint it, the skill is preventing you from dying when you were supposed to die. Even if you say "you're not really dying when it works" the mechanism is still the same: the skill lets you avoid losing your chr in HC mode when you normally would have lost your chr.

The skill reads something like "fatal damage" or w/e. It doesn't matter how you describe it or view it in your mind. It is basically a chicken program that automatically prevents your chr from dying.

The skill is god mode. Unless they get rid of it, or change it big time, get ready to see 99.99% of HC player's using barbs.

[redrach]

Once again, I think you're underestimating how deadly D3 might be. A look at the Wizard's skill tree shows that she has three incredibly powerful spells that allow her to cheat death:
- Wave of Force
- Slow Time
- Teleport

The only reason the Barb's skill is superior is that it's passive. Still, it fits with the Barb's gameplay style.

[Shayagor]

Once again, I think you're underestimating how deadly D3 might be. A look at the Wizard's skill tree shows that she has three incredibly powerful spells that allow her to cheat death:
- Wave of Force
- Slow Time
- Teleport

The only reason the Barb's skill is superior is that it's passive. Still, it fits with the Barb's gameplay style.
I don't see how these skills compare to Death Proof. You can tele out of the room area, but you still might wind up in the middle of a mob which will likely mean death. You can slow time, but you can still get damaged and die and wave of force destroys bounced back projectiles, but you can still die from melee.

None of these skills bring you back from death so that is why these cannot be compared to DP. If you die as a wizard...you die.

[Culicidae]

^No paragraph stucture [grumbles, grumbles].

So, you're OK if it heals you at 1% of your health but not if it's 0%? What's the difference there, really? No matter how you paint it, the skill is preventing you from dying when you were supposed to die. Even if you say "you're not really dying when it works" the mechanism is still the same: the skill lets you avoid losing your chr in HC mode when you normally would have lost your chr.

The skill reads something like "fatal damage" or w/e. It doesn't matter how you describe it or view it in your mind. It is basically a chicken program that automatically prevents your chr from dying.

The skill is god mode. Unless they get rid of it, or change it big time, get ready to see 99.99% of HC player's using barbs.


By that logic, a shield block, having high defense, having higher health or taking a health orb are also "godly" because they keep your character alive when they would have died without them.

[konfeta]

I don't see how these skills compare to Death Proof.

Deathproof does nothing to change your position relative to what killed you. If you are in a pack of untankable mobs, extra half a second won't save you. I doubt you will be able to even leap out of it in that half a second. In normal combat where you "would have died to the flurry of damage if you didn't get that heal" it is mechanically identical to a long cooldown damage shield.

Biggest use of Deathproof will be to survive large, single damage instance, scary attacks like Mephistos Skull Missile.

The biggest thing about Deathproof is it's psychological effect. If it was remade into something else that performed a functionally identical effect, nobody would raise an eye-brow. But here it is, set up as a last resort, without player input - it's not "hardcore" enough.

Here are some examples on how Deathproof really could be ludicrously imba:

1. Immunity to all damage for X seconds upon trigger.
2. Disable all opponents upon activation (stunning explosion of manliness that stuns girlie monsters).
3. Ressurect you at a safe location (last checkpoint).

The first option gives you guaranteed time to get out of a situation that would get you killed. Absolutely guaranteed.

The second option would do the same. It prevents damage from coming in (unless you have a swarm of projectiles flying at you, so this example is noticably weaker than the other 2).

Third option would literally be a "You died? Here is another life, try again!"


As it stands, it's another tool to stay alive - via having a bonus reserve of hitpoints every x seconds. It is not godmode, it is not "get out of jail free" card some are making it out to be.

[MooCQ]

Barbarian = Tauren reincarnate? Wonder if we'll see a few ankh's..

[Sein Schatten]

None of these skills bring you back from death so that is why these cannot be compared to DP. If you die as a wizard...you die.

You are not dead. You get 30% extra health, nothing more. Would you say it is overpowered if the skill just gives you 30% health?

[phool]

Deathproof does nothing to change your position relative to what killed you. If you are in a pack of untankable mobs, extra half a second won't save you. I doubt you will be able to even leap out of it in that half a second. In normal combat where you "would have died to the flurry of damage if you didn't get that heal" it is mechanically identical to a long cooldown damage shield.

Biggest use of Deathproof will be to survive large, single damage instance, scary attacks like Mephistos Skull Missile.

The biggest thing about Deathproof is it's psychological effect. If it was remade into something else that performed a functionally identical effect, nobody would raise an eye-brow. But here it is, set up as a last resort, without player input - it's not "hardcore" enough.

Here are some examples on how Deathproof really could be ludicrously imba:

1. Immunity to all damage for X seconds upon trigger.
2. Disable all opponents upon activation (stunning explosion of manliness that stuns girlie monsters).
3. Ressurect you at a safe location (last checkpoint).

The first option gives you guaranteed time to get out of a situation that would get you killed. Absolutely guaranteed.

The second option would do the same. It prevents damage from coming in (unless you have a swarm of projectiles flying at you, so this example is noticably weaker than the other 2).

Third option would literally be a "You died? Here is another life, try again!"


As it stands, it's another tool to stay alive - via having a bonus reserve of hitpoints every x seconds. It is not godmode, it is not "get out of jail free" card some are making it out to be.

QFT. People in this thread are getting totally hung up purely over the semantics to the point they'd probably glance over a 'halves all damage skill' in favour of fixating on this rather mediocre skill simply due to the inclusion resurrect in the description. BO is so, so much more broken than this skill.

Regardless it's a badly implemented skill for the reasons I've said above.

[Raging_Zealot]

^No paragraph stucture [grumbles, grumbles].

So, you're OK if it heals you at 1% of your health but not if it's 0%? What's the difference there, really? No matter how you paint it, the skill is preventing you from dying when you were supposed to die. Even if you say "you're not really dying when it works" the mechanism is still the same: the skill lets you avoid losing your chr in HC mode when you normally would have lost your chr.

The skill reads something like "fatal damage" or w/e. It doesn't matter how you describe it or view it in your mind. It is basically a chicken program that automatically prevents your chr from dying.

The skill is god mode. Unless they get rid of it, or change it big time, get ready to see 99.99% of HC player's using barbs.

The difference is that you never died, you just gained health, so it is not like your HC character is coming back from the dead while other character classes are dead permanently. Plus, the way I see it possibly working (no one really knows for sure at this point) could be at any % of health, say you are at 40% health, but the damage coming in just so happens to be for more than the remaining health you have. Instead of taking the fatal damage, your character gains some health. Once again, at this early stage, we don't know how they may balance it, or if it is indeed necessary to survive the deadly swarms that will be thrown at the Barbarian.

There are lots of damage negation skills in Diablo, this one just happens to only work when you are near death. I don't see it being that different than some other sort of damage shield. The bone shield of a necro will absorb damage. If you get hit for 500 damage and you have 400 life, but the bone shield absorbs 300 of that damage, so you only lose 200 life, you would have normally died, but the bone shield saved you. To me, with the limited knowledge we have of the specifics of the skill, and the dangers of Diablo III at this time, I don't see it being all that different mechanically from any other damage absorbing skill. We'll have to wait and see how it is implemented and balanced out for the final game.

[Apocalypse]

if bone shield was passive and worked the second you were about to die i would compare the 2, but this skill sounds like it acts purely as a life saver without you even needing to think about it. 30% hp is sure to be alot for the barb who can also have a passive damage reduction and life regen going at the same time.

like has been said though, we do not know how d3 will be played, we can only go on past experience to judge and from that I feel that the skill is cheap. I also feel it will be changed prior to release so who knows what it will do then

[Telzen]

Since Barbs are probably the only ones that have to build up their mana/fury before they can do their attacks and also have to fight in close combat I don't really see death proof as a problem. It also has 15 ranks. Higher ranks might increase the chance for it to trigger, and any points spent in it are points not spent in other skills which is just making the barb weaker for a chance to self res.

[Starving_Poet]

This skill wasn't imbalancing in Titan Quest. The things that drop you to zero health before you have a chance to react have the tendency to take away 30% of your health in one hit anyway.