View Full Version : Thoughts on Death Proof characters
stillman
19-10-2008, 17:33
Will every barb be a Death Proof barb just like every barb on d2 was a bo barb? Read about Death Proof here: http://www.diablowiki.net/Battlemaster_Skill_Tree#Death_Proof
Or maybe not, since there's not much of a death penalty anway?
The skill reads like it resurects you each time you die provided 300 seconds has gone by, and more point investment means you get more life back each time (my guess). If that's the case, you actually BENEFIT by getting yourself killed. Or, there may be only a % chance to get resurected and the % goes up when you max it out.
In any case, will this make HC mode lose it's well-known "thrill" factor since you can die a bunch of times? Or would DP increase this thrill because each death is like playing Russain roulette if there's only a % chance to survive death?
Is it fair to other chrs, or should they have death defying skills/spells of their own? If they don't, will HC mode be all barbs?
How do you guys think it will pan out on bnet2?
Edit: I forgot to mention PvP and boss issues. What if the damage done is 4k on your 600 life DP barb and he just pops back from it like it was nothing? Then, he retaliates with his own one-shot skill and the duel becomes a matter of whose DP went off first...
Gigashadow
19-10-2008, 20:22
I don't like this feature HC wise because, as you have said, it makes dying uncertain. I prefer when you die, you die. That's how I imagine HC. In SC, I think this is acceptable, but I don't imagine them making this skill SC-only...
This is very unfair to other classes if they don't have Death Proof. I doubt HC will be all barbs, though. Rather, HC barbs would be considered wusses, lol...
Gigashadow 2 other characters are safer to play, while barb as melee will be easy surround and slaughter by hordes of enemies. What escape mechanics you have other than leap?
Gigashadow
19-10-2008, 20:43
Gigashadow 2 other characters are safer to playNever felt like it for me. I always found Necros much harder to keep alive than barbs because barbs have tons of life and are designed to be in the middle, while necros are just weak but they still sort of needs to be close to enemies...
What escape mechanics you have other than leap?I don't think I ever need an escape mechanic when I play a barb. He's just invincible. Barbs are the easiest chars to play in DII...
I don't know what DIII will do, but I don't want a lessened dying penalty to be the counter towards barb's increased danger. That's just a crude way to fix it. Give melee classes some advantages in other fields, but don't let them survive, that's just silly...
Rather, HC barbs would be considered wusses, lol...
Wusses because their entire character can't use most of their skills outside of combat, and thus requires to be in the thick of it pretty much all the time to survive?
The Barbarian is significantly weaker outside of combat than in combat. "Wuss" is the last word I would use to describe that.
Gigashadow
19-10-2008, 21:34
Wusses because dying is equally probable for every character if they are well balanced...
If a barb has a higher probability of dying, that's crappy balancing.
stillman
19-10-2008, 21:42
But, in a different sense, maybe barbs would run into similar "wuss" problems, just replace wuss with other insults. My main concern is that every last barb will have DP, and if yours doesn't, you get called a noob. And if yours does, you get called a cookie cutter. Either way, you get accused of doing something wrong, lol.
The situation I'm thinking of is exactly how bo is handled in d2. If you don't have bo, you get called noob (perhaps because you can't bo others and they are angry about it, but I guess that might not be a problem with DP since it's not a party buff. Though in duels, people would eventually find out that you don't have it so THEN they would certainly call you a noob for not having DP when 99.99% of barbs have it). But if you DO have bo (or DP in d3), you are just another barb off the bo/DP conveyer belt feeling like you have no choice but to drop 15 points into DP for all your barb builds. When masses of people use the same skill, it gets called cookie cutter. And isn't cookie cutter sometimes called noobicannon because it's so easy and commonplace?
This is what I am a bit worried about. Now, you can say "why should I care about what other players think?" and "No one is forcing you to use it." but no one likes being called names on bnet, and the pressure will always be there to use these no-brainer skills.
I could be wrong of course; just brain storming here. Maybe 99.99% of barbs won't necessarily use it as I've arogantly presumed. We have no idea how it will work when it's finished...I'm just hoping there is no bo type of skill that virtually takes over a chr class.
If a barb has a higher probability of dying, that's crappy balancing.
He is a melee character. Death Proof is part of what allows him to survive in thick of combat. It's not like when his HP reaches zero, he gets a message "Congratulations, you put a point into Death Proof you SC-like WUSS! Respawn at last checkpoint and try again!"
If he screws up, he will still die, 1 time heal or not - this is what this essentially is, a bonus HP pot. This skill allows him greater leeway for error, but it will not save him if takes a bigger bite that he can swallow.
nEgativezEro
19-10-2008, 22:11
If the 300 seconds is correct, that's 5 minutes, which is a pretty long time in-game. 30% of your health isn't a ton. This is an interesting skill. I'm assuming the time delay won't change, or at least change very little if it does. The long delay makes it a little better balanced. I figure the more points you put into the higher your HP% recovery is.
It'll save you if you get in over your head, but you'll need to make the most of that chance. A 5 minute delay gives plenty of time for the player to get killed for good.
Gigashadow
19-10-2008, 22:17
He is a melee character.I'm sorry that you suck with melee characters, but please stop repeating the same idea and actually find a decent argument. Ranged characters being easier to play is a myth and is not true for tons of games, including even FPS games.
Here's the skill hover, if anyone can decipher it to get the exact wording, go for it.
http://www.diablowiki.net/images/f/f1/Barb-bm-10-death-proof.jpg
My translation, with abilities honed by spending about 6 hours at this yesterday:
The barbarian _____ over death. Upon ____ high damage the barbarian is kept alive _____ 30% of maximum health.
The effect cannot ____ more than ____ every 300 seconds.
The bottom line in red is the "10 points to use this tier" all the skills at that level said.
This seems a crazy-overpowered skill to me; if it worked something like 10% of the time, and improved a bit with skill points, that would be reasonable. If it's a free resurrect every 5 minutes, that's stupid. (Though I suppose you'd still die sometimes, if you were really swarmed and there was still a lot of mob left when you popped back to life with 30% of your hps.) I do think we'll see any HC chars who die and live through this absolutely without doubt sitting out the next 299 seconds, for obvious reasons.
Never felt like it for me. I always found Necros much harder to keep alive than barbs because barbs have tons of life and are designed to be in the middle, while necros are just weak but they still sort of needs to be close to enemies...
Necros need to be close? Did we play same game? Necro maybe is low on hp but have ton of protection other type like bone armor, bone walls and prisons, golems, skelly and revives plus curses i can asume you that monsters will not have even chance too put finger on him untill they have some kind piercing attack.
I don't think I ever need an escape mechanic when I play a barb. He's just invincible. Barbs are the easiest chars to play in DII...
Nope they are not as easy as wind druid, they are not even close.
D2 and D3 are two different games, you know that in d3 you will not have full belt of rev potions or even life potions.
In other words imagine that you going d2 ancients quest but with d3 rules so no tp, lack of health potions and probably no leech now on who would you bet to survive barb or necro?Here's the skill hover, if anyone can decipher it to get the exact wording, go for it.
http://www.diablowiki.net/images/f/f1/Barb-bm-10-death-proof.jpg
My translation, with abilities honed by spending about 6 hours at this yesterday:
This seems a crazy-overpowered skill to me; if it worked something like 10% of the time, and improved a bit with skill points, that would be reasonable. If it's a free resurrect every 5 minutes, that's stupid. (Though I suppose you'd still die sometimes, if you were really swarmed and there was still a lot of mob left when you popped back to life with 30% of your hps.) I do think we'll see any HC chars who die and live through this absolutely without doubt sitting out the next 299 seconds, for obvious reasons.
"The barbarian overcomes death. Upon receiving fatal damage the Barbarian is kept alive and gains back 30% of his maximum health. The effect can not occur more than every 300 seconds."
It is not over-powered skill, do not exaggerate Flux, this 30% willl not save you if you are in deep **** anyway.
I'm sorry that you suck with melee characters, but please stop repeating the same idea and actually find a decent argument. Ranged characters being easier to play is a myth and is not true for tons of games, including even FPS games.
An actually decent argument? Put up one that makes sense, first, maybe I will consider it.
"Barbarian has a triggered heal, it's now a wuss class."
What's next? Anything that stops you from dieing because you screw up is a wuss ability?
Amazons can totally dodge killing blows in D2 thanks to evasion skills. Amazons are now a wuss class.
A character gets 75% block. It can now stop a killing blow 232932x more often than Death Proof. Anyone who uses a shield is now a wuss.
The Wizard has a skill that completely blocks any attack every x seconds. The Wizard is now a wuss class.
"The barbarian overcomes death. Upon receiving fatal damage the Barbarian is kept alive and gains back 30% of his maximum health.
The effect can not occur more than every 300 seconds."
I bolded parts that are wrong.
Where you have "overcomes" is 2 words in the screenshot. I think it's "____ over/even death" Short word... can't make it out. I want to say "triumphs" or something like that, but clearly it's about a 7 letter word with a tall letter in the middle.
Where you say "fatal" can't be right since there's no t or other tall letter in the middle of the word.
You might be right on "kept alive and gains". Hard to tell if "and gains" is one longer word or 2 shorter ones. but there's clearly no other word between "gains" and "30%".
And sure, we've got the gist of things, but my point was that it's hard to get the exact wording, which might matter on a skill such as this. It's easy to construct a version that sounds right, but if it doesn't match the blurry letters in the photo, it's clearly not correct.
It is not over-powered skill, do not exaggerate Flux, this 30% willl not save you if you are in deep **** anyway.
Well see, I played HC on the realms for 3 years, so the concept of anything saving you from dying, even 1% of the time, seems insane. I lost oh, 4 or 5 barbs at lvl 80+, and none of them died in a mob. Most were one hit freak flukes to MSLEFE Conviction type monsters, or else lagging out against Lister, that sort of thing. Barring continuing lag/disconnects, I would have survived with all of them if I'd had a resurrection skill to 30% hit points. So this one is an incredibly radical change in hwo the game works, for players who have always played where dying is very rare and the end of a character.
For SC players who WW Ob Knights and have never thought to retreat or play strategically, it's just a handy convenience saving them that run from town/the checkpoint.
Gigashadow
20-10-2008, 00:57
An actually decent argument? Put up one that makes sense, first, maybe I will consider it.Argument to what? I'm not the one saying that melee chars will be stronger than ranged chars 100% of the time under any circumstance.
"Barbarian has a triggered heal, it's now a wuss class."U-huh, now, let's return to what I ACTUALLY said:
This is very unfair to other classes if they don't have Death Proof. I doubt HC will be all barbs, though. Rather, HC barbs would be considered wusses, lol...
I didn't say that I'd consider HC barbs wusses. I said they would be considered wusses by other players... e.g., what stillman said. I don't call anyone a wuss based on the fact that they use what the game lets them use...
MY point was that it's a bad way to balance classes. Classes should be balanced in how they avoid death, not by giving them a sure chance of survival no matter how and where they survive.
Amazons can totally dodge killing blows in D2 thanks to evasion skills. Amazons are now a wuss class.Evasion is not guaranteed. Neither is 75% block. In any case, these protections are not against death. They are against being hit. Yes, you may defend a killing hit, but the point is, these are designed for any hits, Death Proof is designed for DEATH. E.g., after all your other ways of evading death, including a shield, and potions, and health globes, and whatever are all much, you'd still survive.Necros need to be close? Did we play same game? Necro maybe is low on hp but have ton of protection other type like bone armor, bone walls and prisons, golems, skelly and revives plus curses i can asume you that monsters will not have even chance too put finger on him untill they have some kind piercing attack.Just because we played the same game doesn't mean we played it the same way. Some prefer melee classes, some prefer ranged, and some prefer casters. Even if I take NWN, I always found it easier to play fighters than mages... while everyone told me fighters suck. Perhaps you find necro easier. Fine. What I am trying to say is that melee chars are not worse off than other chars...
Bone Armor? Lol, like that spell lasts long... any tight spot, and bone armor is gone. I even stopped putting the point into it later on. It's totally useless in bad situations and in all other situations my VIT is enough.
Bone wall is great, but it also dies relatively quickly, and it's not a defensive measure to the necro in particular... half the time it's used for faster monster killing.
Golems are nice but not all necros use them.
Curses are nice but have other complications. You still need to cast them.
Nope they are not as easy as wind druid, they are not even close.
D2 and D3 are two different games, you know that in d3 you will not have full belt of rev potions or even life potions.
In other words imagine that you going d2 ancients quest but with d3 rules so no tp, lack of health potions and probably no leech now on who would you bet to survive barb or necro?For me it was easier.
Yes, D2 and D3 are two different games, and that means you have no clue how the barb plays...
And my bet would be 100% on barb. Killing them with necro was insane.
It is not over-powered skill, do not exaggerate Flux, this 30% willl not save you if you are in deep **** anyway.If I had that thing on all my dead HC characters I'd survive. Most of the time you die because of inattention. I was never in a situation where I couldn't survive no matter what I did, it was usually a matter of forgetting to drink a rejuv or something. Barb has leap, and that's more than enough for him to survive with 30% health in the hands of every HC char.
Well see, I played HC on the realms for 3 years, so the concept of anything saving you from dying, even 1% of the time, seems insane. I lost oh, 4 or 5 barbs at lvl 80+, and none of them died in a mob. Most were one hit freak flukes to MSLEFE Conviction type monsters, or else lagging out against Lister, that sort of thing. Barring continuing lag/disconnects, I would have survived with all of them if I'd had a resurrection skill to 30% hit points. So this one is an incredibly radical change in hwo the game works, for players who have always played where dying is very rare and the end of a character.
For SC players who WW Ob Knights and have never thought to retreat or play strategically, it's just a handy convenience saving them that run from town/the checkpoint.
Well about translation i tried my best :).
You still making one mistake, you try too put d3 skill into d2 realm , it will not work this way as i remember d3 guys said that they hate 1-shot mechanic in d2 as the only way too challenge (read: kill character) right now you have to expect that you can die in situation like in the beginning of ww1 show when barb fight with tons of ghouls.
Just because we played the same game doesn't mean we played it the same way. Some prefer melee classes, some prefer ranged, and some prefer casters. Even if I take NWN, I always found it easier to play fighters than mages... while everyone told me fighters suck. Perhaps you find necro easier. Fine. What I am trying to say is that melee chars are not worse off than other chars...
Funny i have NWN diamond edition (great game btw) and end it twice as wizard and once as shapeshifter but as warrior i give up because of fight against dethrick or whatever is his name, he killed me every time with 1-hit ko spell (phantom killer or finger of death dont remember now).
Anyway reason why i say say that melee is harder than ranger class because of ability to avoid to be hit. No hit = no health lost = no death obious :).
I would ask someone who played barb on blizzcon how dangerous were creatures to barb in melee contact, how much hp lost on hit etc. Someone can answer? Please.
Bone Armor? Lol, like that spell lasts long... any tight spot, and bone armor is gone. I even stopped putting the point into it later on. It's totally useless in bad situations and in all other situations my VIT is enough.
I will answer only to that, you should only put one point into bone armor rest you get from synergy and this spell saves my butt many times and recast it is very easy with 125% fcr even while some monster is hitting you making you immune to physical attacks, its like protoss shield :).
I really don't see what the problem is... this seems like a spell specifically intended to help out HC characters. It doesn't help at all in killing enemies faster, and SC characters will probably skip it.
Now then, is it completely game-breaking for HC characters? Hard to say, we don't know what will be the most common causes of death in D3. D2 had one-hit kill mobs and lag. If a monster can bring you from 100% HP to 0% quicker than you can respond, I don't think finishing off a further 30% would be much for it when you revive. In D2 this extra time may be enough for you to quaff a rejuvenation potion, but potions in D3 are much rarer and we don't know if we'll see rejuvs (I hope not, they always seemed broken to me).
What I'm basically saying is that this may actually be INVALUABLE to HC-Barbs in the new and dangerous setting of D2, instead of just cheap. It's really too early to tell.
Evasion is not guaranteed. Neither is 75% block. In any case, these protections are not against death. They are against being hit. Yes, you may defend a killing hit, but the point is, these are designed for any hits, Death Proof is designed for DEATH. E.g., after all your other ways of evading death, including a shield, and potions, and health globes, and whatever are all much, you'd still survive.
Eh... Fine.
I still say that for a character who doesn't get full power until after it starts taking damage it's a normal skill. The difference between Barbarian in D2 and Barbarian in D3 is that, outside Frenzy, a D2 Barbarian will always be at full power from the start of the fight. In Diablo 3, entering combat with the Barbarian is an inherently more risky than other classes simply because it enters it at far less than full strength - neither the Witch Doctor nor the Wizard have that limitation, and it has nothing to do with whenever the Barbarian is melee.
Gigashadow
20-10-2008, 03:02
Funny i have NWN diamond edition (great game btw) and end it twice as wizard and once as shapeshifter but as warrior i give up because of fight against dethrick or whatever is his name, he killed me every time with 1-hit ko spell (phantom killer or finger of death dont remember now).If you have high Fortitude or something Finger of Death doesn't really get you... just drink a few potions. That's what I did. Every time I met some hard to kill monster I just drank like 20 different potions lol. I was half-blackguard, but I don't remember if I was Blackguard yet at that point.
Anyway reason why i say say that melee is harder than ranger class because of ability to avoid to be hit. No hit = no health lost = no death obious :).That's faulty logic, though. Melee gets compensated for that. Melee is stronger, has more health, more resistance, etc.
I will answer only to that, you should only put one point into bone armor rest you get from synergy and this spell saves my butt many times and recast it is very easy with 125% fcr even while some monster is hitting you making you immune to physical attacks, its like protoss shield :).The synergy is not enough to make Bone Armor effective. Bone armor just reduces way too little damage no matter what you do with it. I don't see how this spell saves your butt unless you are avoiding 1-shot kills or something. If you keep your health high you don't need bone armor for that.
And I didn't have any 125% cast rate, obviously, since I never used MF at that time and all my gear was absolute garbage.
It still all depends on the mechanics. If for example, you die then ressurect 20 seconds later after some of the mobs have wandered off, it might be bearable for PVP and such, or if you ressurect with nil fury, or if you take 5 seconds to ressurect and the mobs keep wailing on you.
Personally thoug I'm not fond of the idea at this point.A chance to perform a war cry of some sort (I think I read already included) similar to you land a crit attack, you get some health back. Maybe have it as a chance while under 30% hp to cast a warcry to boost hp back up?
Raging_Zealot
20-10-2008, 03:29
We also don't know if it is based on a percentage for sure (I'm only going by what is in the wiki, which says it is assumed to). Someone says "Evasion isn't guaranteed, nor is block", well if it is like 7% chance to avoid death, then this would be far from guaranteed as well. I agree its overpowered if it works EVERY time, provided that it has not triggered within the last 300 seconds, but it seems that we don't really know that for sure yet. Either way I think we'll have to wait and see exactly how it is implemented, and trust that Blizzard can do a good job of balancing everything out.
Personally it doesn't seem like something I would want to rely on for HC play if it has a low percent chance to proc, I wouldn't want to stake my high lvl Barb's life on something that that may or may not save me.
Waiting 20 seconds is clearly out of the question. I can't imagine the developers making you wait that long when you die. Resurrection with 0 Fury is something I can see happening though, sounds perfect.
Perhaps one of the reasons I'm not too averse to the idea is that I've already seen it in a game - specifically the Skeleton King's Resurrection ability in Defense of the Ancients. It's a good ultimate ability, but not really overpowered as he resurrects right where he died and it's quite easy to kill him again.
I can actually visualize a "Death Defier" build, with the core skills being Death-proof and the skill that reduces damage when your HP < 50%. Skip all the other survivability skills, and focus on massive damage. Run into mobs like a madman, die, resurrect, and keep on going.
t still all depends on the mechanics. If for example, you die then ressurect 20 seconds later after some of the mobs have wandered off, it might be bearable for PVP and such, or if you ressurect with nil fury, or if you take 5 seconds to ressurect and the mobs keep wailing on you.
It's not resurrection. It's literally, it blocks all damage from the blow that would have killed you and heals you according to max % of your HP. I don't *know* that this is the way it works, but I am 99% sure that's how it works.
Apocalypse
20-10-2008, 16:33
seems cheap to me, we do not know the exact strength of the skill (% healed and is it 100% of the time?) but even if it capped at 50% it would be a unfair advantage to any HC barb, or pvp barb
Culicidae
20-10-2008, 19:49
I'm not quite sure what makes this skill so controversial. It just sounds like the equivalent of a successful shield block + health orb. Given that it only works once every 300 seconds and that it only has a chance of working, it doesn't seem overpowered at all.
Gigashadow
20-10-2008, 21:06
I'm not really sure about the "chance of working" part, really. That would either turn this into a must-have skill or no-take skill for HC... if it's like a 10% chance of survival I don't imagine any HC player relying on it.
Malificent
20-10-2008, 23:00
Here's the skill hover, if anyone can decipher it to get the exact wording, go for it.
http://www.diablowiki.net/images/f/f1/Barb-bm-10-death-proof.jpg
I'm pretty sure the exact wording is:
"The barbarian resists even death. Upon receiving fatal damage the Barbarian is kept alive and gains 30% of maximum health.
This effect cannot occur more than once every 300 seconds."
Risingred
21-10-2008, 14:30
I think, from a lore/character perspective, Death Proof is great. It fits in with the "badassery" that is the barbarian. But from a gameplay example, it's iffy. I'd need to see specifics about it and see it in action.
If it's similar to the self-rez that the shaman class has in World of WarCraft (where you can choose when to resurrect within six minutes, and you can wait for the monsters to go back to their spawn point) then it would be overpowered.
All in all, however, this doesn't seem very Diablo 1 or Diablo 2-like, but I haven't played Diablo III so I cannot judge.
I don't think this fits in HC at all in any fashion though. If one were to assume that they'd adjust all classes to have a similar mechanic, that isn't balancing HC mode, that is kind of weakening it.
I'm curious to see how this skill develops over the course of the game's creation.
Throndhart
21-10-2008, 17:54
The way I read this skill, and here´s where nitpicking becomes important:
"The Barbarian is kept alive" (emphasis mine) means that he doesn´t die at all. No corpse, no death effects, just your health bubble goes up, and you keep at it. Think of it as if, as soon as you hit 0 HP, the game feeds you a rejuvenation potion, and you keep going. If you´re surrounded by monsters, you´ll die again, and soon. In PVP, it simply means that you´ll have a bit of a respite, and for all intents and purposes an extra 30% life that comes into play once you reach 0 life.
Culicidae
21-10-2008, 18:21
The way I read this skill, and here´s where nitpicking becomes important:
"The Barbarian is kept alive" (emphasis mine) means that he doesn´t die at all. No corpse, no death effects, just your health bubble goes up, and you keep at it. Think of it as if, as soon as you hit 0 HP, the game feeds you a rejuvenation potion, and you keep going. If you´re surrounded by monsters, you´ll die again, and soon. In PVP, it simply means that you´ll have a bit of a respite, and for all intents and purposes an extra 30% life that comes into play once you reach 0 life.
I'm pretty sure this is what they meant too. Hmm, when it's worded that way, it sounds like it simply adds to your max health under certain conditions. It doesn't sound like this skill is a problem then.
stillman
21-10-2008, 22:09
I disagree with Throndhart's reasoning, and others who are saying, 'you'll likely die again anyway if you're in a jam'. I don't see how a player would die again. Wouldn't they just run the hell out of there? That is the smart thing to do. If they get killed and pop back with 30% health, why would they stick around in that mob? What they were doing got them killed; therefore, they won't make that mistake again. They'll run way the hell back to the area where the monsters are cleared out. They'll jam a potion into them while they're escaping the mob, too.
30% of your health as a barb is quite a lot. Many HC players won't take on a mob if the mob can drop his health by 30% in 2-3 hits. That is too risky. So in a d3 scenario, let's say they get killed due to inattention or a miniboss blows up. Their life bulb then goes up to 30%. A bunch of monsters then hit them 'because they're surrounded by monsters'. They hit the barb 6-8 times while the barb runs the hell out of there. His orb goes down A LITTLE BIT from those 6-8 hits. Otherwise, if those 6-8 hits took the life orb down to something frightfully low, the player would see that he's not palying HC right. He'll pump more into life gear/life skills or simply fight weaker stuff untill he can handle 6-8 hits at 30% life with no worries. They certainly wouldn't get killed by the same mob twice in a row.
"Think of it as if, as soon as you hit 0 HP, the game feeds you a rejuvenation potion, and you keep going." But Throndhart, if that happened to anyone's chr, there'd be hardly anyone dead on HC. Many of us would just love for a rejuv to be fed to us just before we die. To me, it sounds A BIT like the chicken program because it uses super-fast AI to do the 'rejuv' clicking faster than we could do it at that 100% perfect time. It's just rejuv instead of tping to town. This sort of thing would rescue us form hundreds of deaths on HC mode, making HC less scary.
Part of the challenge fo HC (and thrill) is knowing the health orb and when you need to panic. I guess we don't need to panic ever again because a 1-5% full life orb (darn near invisible and empty) = 30% full health orb. No worries.
Note: I think Malificent is right in his deciphering; The "t", when looking at other t's, just happens to be shorter than we normally expect form normal text.
Throndhart
22-10-2008, 01:05
Feel free to disagree with me. I´ve had the whole "2-3 hits and you´re dead again" happen to me often, specially on very nasty boss mods, like an Extra Strong, Fire Enchanted, Conviction aura boss, but I don´t play hardcore cos I don´t like it, find it a time sink. The main point of my point isn´t whether it lessens HC or not, or whether it´s balanced or not (only seeing the skill in action will tell), but pointing out the way that I think the ability is going to work, in order to give people a (at least in my opinion) more accurate idea of what to expect.
A variation on the concept of the skill could be very interesting. The skill is not an inherently overpowered one but the implementation appears to be weak regardless, due to potentially allowing f. Self ressurection is a sensational and inaccurate description of a buff skill that is similar, but probably very much inferior (we don't yet know the value of healing), to one that boosts maximum life by 30% (perhaps going up to 100% at higher levels).
A far better - more intensive, more skilled, high risk/reward - version of this skill would be if it was a very short duration active buff, e.g. 2 seconds, with short cast time, and a far lower cooldown such as 15 seconds. In this way it could be a potentially very effective - but dangerous (if the buff drops a frame too soon or you hit the skill a tiny bit too late, you're dead!) - skill-orientated self heal that doesn't risk resulting in significently slower paced play (players in HC fighting only while this skill is active and going afk otherwise, anyone?). This implementation could also make for some very interesting mind games in pvp.
...
People in this thread are getting totally hung up purely over the semantics to the point they'd probably glance over a 'halves all damage skill' in favour of fixating on this rather mediocre skill simply due to the inclusion resurrect in the description. BO is so, so much more broken than this skill.
I will note one thing I didn't mention in the other thread on this skill; it protects from attacks that do any amount of instant damage. This shouldn't matter - the officially stated design direction is towards a greater focus on attrition which has been made a possible threat by the reduction potion spam and likely tps - only if significent bugs make it to release along the lines of some of D2's (extra strong FE, FE mummies, multiple element enchanteds, tomb vipers) or imba bosses (1.07 meph's cold orb, 1.07 baal's breath attack) would this be a disproportionately valuable skill to HC players. Which is unlikely; Blizz aren't the company they were when D2 was made and extensive beta-testing is very likely to iron out these threats (half the examples I've given this skill wouldn't help against btw, at least not as much as a very low BO).
Brother Laz
25-10-2008, 15:44
* You assume that 'taking 6-8 hits at 30% life' will happen again in D3. In D1 6-8 hits by anything just killed you.
* Of course you can run out of there, but if you just cast low level BO which gives you 30% more life, you can also run out of there when you run out of natural life. Death Proof is pretty much the same as a low level BO with the caveat that it only works once every 300 seconds.
Gigashadow
25-10-2008, 21:06
You still have to cast the BO...
The issue with DP is that it works with 100% efficiency as of right now when your health reaches 0 (1?). Sure, they can make this balanced. But I'd rather they think of something else.
BO works with 100% efficiency 100% of the time.
DP works with 100% efficiency once every 6 minutes.
BO works with your entire party, and increases their mana to boot.
Deathproof is still no where close to how good Battle Orders is, even if you have to take the "inconvenience" of casting it every 4-5 minutes.
*Plus, take a look at this skill from the Juggernaut Tree:
# Passive Skill
# Max Rank: 15
# Description: Whenever the Barbarian is below 50% health, all damage is reduced by X%.
* Rank 1: Damage is reduced by 21%.
* Rank 2: Damage is reduced by 34%.
Depending on percentage, this will be on several orders of magnitude better than Death Proof.
Even at rank 2, it effectively increases your HP by 50% as soon as you get knocked below 50%. Let's be conservative and that over 15 ranks it will reduce damage by 50%. Your effective HP gets doubled once you hit 50%. Let's go wild and assume it goes to 75% damage reduction. Your effective HP gets quadrupled when you go below half. That would mean that a 1k HP barbarian would effectively have 2.5k HP with this skill maxed. That is comparable to a what, 40 total skill points Battle Orders in terms of HP increase? Not nearly as good as BO in terms general utility (no mana, stamina, and party increase), but miles better than Death Proof, at lower tree position (meaning every Barbarian can max this at any point they wish.
Gigashadow
25-10-2008, 23:11
BO works with 100% efficiency 100% of the time.No it doesn't... it's a ****ing spell... unless you cast it it doesn't work. DP works all the time. That's the problem.
You don't need to pay attention with DP.
The Juggernaut skill will be balanced against. Those extra 50% are not going to be given to you for free. DP really doesn't need to be balanced against. And if it will be, I don't welcome it. I don't like chars being balanced based on having a spell that saves them from death.
Brother Laz
25-10-2008, 23:19
Omg, did you just say BO is weak because you have to cast it?
The only problem with Death Proof is the stupid Tarantino pun, other than that it's well balanced. You die, you respawn with 30% life a few moments later, you die again to the exact same mob. Whoo.
No it doesn't... it's a ****ing spell... unless you cast it it doesn't work. DP works all the time. That's the problem.
You don't need to pay attention with DP.
If you play a Barbarian, keeping BO on is like breathing to you. I haven't seen a single Barbarian beyond level 50 in Diablo 2 that had the skill and didn't keep it up 100% as a reflex. It's not exactly a monumental task of concentration and attention to keep it up permanently. In fact, it takes more concentration to pay attention to DP because it's guaranteed to not work for 6 minutes after it gets used.
The Juggernaut skill will be balanced against. Those extra 50% are not going to be given to you for free. DP really doesn't need to be balanced against. And if it will be, I don't welcome it. I don't like chars being balanced based on having a spell that saves them from death.
Why would Blizzard balance an entire class based on a skill that only works every 6 minutes and is functionally identical to a shield block followed by a heal? Do you really think they expect every Barbarian that took this skill to just stop playing for 6 minutes every time it gets used to wait for the cooldown to flush?
The only problem with Death Proof is the stupid Tarantino pun, other than that it's well balanced. You die, you respawn with 30% life a few moments later, you die again to the exact same mob. Whoo.
That's assuming there even is a respawn. The way it's worded implies that it will do nothing more than replace character death with an x% heal, meaning there is literally nothing stopping an attack following the killing blow by .001 seconds ripping you a new one.
Gigashadow
26-10-2008, 02:05
Omg, did you just say BO is weak because you have to cast it?I said BO is just a spell. Hence, not automatic. Not a passive skill. Persistenly exists. If you die, you probably die WHILE BO is active. You won't cast BO the moment you die. Is this really so hard to understand...
You die, you respawn with 30% life a few moments later, you die again to the exact same mob. Whoo.If I had DP in HC I'd probably never die, because most of the situations are not at all the situations where you totally can't get out, drink a rejuv and you're fine, DP = rejuv instantly cast the moment you die to give you the crucial extra time to survive. Unless DIII is super-ultra-hard, DP is going to make HC a cheesy ride. And if DIII is super-ultra-hard to compensate for DP, as I have said before - I don't like that balancing.If you play a Barbarian, keeping BO on is like breathing to you. I haven't seen a single Barbarian beyond level 50 in Diablo 2 that had the skill and didn't keep it up 100% as a reflex. It's not exactly a monumental task of concentration and attention to keep it up permanently. In fact, it takes more concentration to pay attention to DP because it's guaranteed to not work for 6 minutes after it gets used.Um, OK, so how does BO SAVE you from death? It gives you more life, right? So, if you die while BO is active, you're not saving yourself, are you? You just have a lesser chance to die in general because you have more health? Or what?
I can understand the chance to block save thing but this is just silly. BO doesn't function like DP at all.Why would Blizzard balance an entire class based on a skill that only works every 6 minutes and is functionally identical to a shield block followed by a heal?This skill is OP for any HC character unless it's balanced against, that's why. No proper HC player will die with DP on... so everyone will go max it besides the people who like variety (same people that don't max BO). And, it's not functionally identical to block and I explained why above...
Do you really think they expect every Barbarian that took this skill to just stop playing for 6 minutes every time it gets used to wait for the cooldown to flush?An HC player in DII never needed to do that. You are not in a life-threatening situation that often.
That's assuming there even is a respawn. The way it's worded implies that it will do nothing more than replace character death with an x% heal, meaning there is literally nothing stopping an attack following the killing blow by .001 seconds ripping you a new one.Killing blow that would kill 30% of a barb's health? LOL
Um, OK, so how does BO SAVE you from death? It gives you more life, right? So, if you die while BO is active, you're not saving yourself, are you? You just have a lesser chance to die in general because you have more health? Or what?
...
YES. More health means you can take more damage before you die! If a Barbarian sustained 1000 damage in a fight while having base 900 HP and over 1000 with Battle Orders, Battle Orders saved him from death. Are you actually going to argue basic arithmetic?
That's giving you a bonus HP reserve that SAVED you from dieing. As in, if you didn't use it, you would DIE and NOT BE SAVED by it.
Killing blow that would kill 30% of a barb's health? LOL
You are grasping at straws here. It doesn't have to be one hit. It can be an entire barrage of high attacks following a disable. There is a perfectly good possibility that there will be monsters that fire off high damage attacks that will kill 30% or more of even the better equipped Barbarian's health.
What is so hard to understand? Seriously. Please explain, preferably referencing the flaws in my post. BO may as well be passive, it lasts about 6 minutes itself. Hell, in current patch, your current health/mana/stamina even adjusts along with your max. What's the difference between having an extra 30% hp and recovering 30% once when you would o/w hit 0? _Unless_ you lose more than 30% hp in a single attack, no significent difference at all.
Do you really think they expect every Barbarian that took this skill to just stop playing for 6 minutes every time it gets used to wait for the cooldown to flush?
I think that's a genuine concern in HC. More likely just quit and rejoin but we don't know enough about D3 to make any assumptions in that regard.
Brother Laz
26-10-2008, 13:12
Sigh.
Barb A has 1K life and casts BO adding 30% life. He takes 1K damage, doesn't die. He takes 300 more damage and dies. He respawns, recasts BO and takes 1.2K damage and doesn't die.
Barb B has 1K life and 30% DP. He takes 1K damage, doesn't die. He takes 300 more damage and dies. He respawns, takes 1.2K damage and dies. This is better how?
stillman
26-10-2008, 20:23
* You assume that 'taking 6-8 hits at 30% life' will happen again in D3. In D1 6-8 hits by anything just killed you.
* Of course you can run out of there, but if you just cast low level BO which gives you 30% more life, you can also run out of there when you run out of natural life. Death Proof is pretty much the same as a low level BO with the caveat that it only works once every 300 seconds.
Laz, that's the problem. You're saying DP is alot like BO from d2, so no worries. Well wouldn't you agree that BO is terribly wrong and overpowered? Anyone who does not max BO is nerfing themselves and is called a noob, and therefore almost every last barb has 20 fewer skill points to administer because they pretty much have to put 20 into BO for every last barb build. It makes for some boring barbs. The main concern for me, and maybe Gigashadow, is that DP is going to end up being the next BO. It's going to be the no-brainer skill that everyone maxes out. You're saying it's ok to have DP in there because it's not much different from BO (which is a game breaking skill).
The barb can also jump-skill out of there after his DP warning goes off...so he wouldn't take enough hits to get him killed unless it was a terrible palyer up against a boss he shouldn't be fighting in the first palce.
Since we're getting into differences/similarities of skills, I'd like to bring up the issue of your 500 life barb being hit with 20k of damage and surviving it no matter what with DP. BO could never do that. With BO, you can still get killed with a huge damage attack. With DP, nothing in the whole game will kill you--the 20k attack has to happen twice in a row. Hell, just for argument sake, let's make it 100k of damage. BO can't save you from that. DP can.
Shield block has the cap, so again, it won't automatically save you like DP does. Shield block will remove 100% of the damage, but if you're unlucky it won't remove any of the damage so you sure wouldn't totally rely on it in HC. But DP has a 100% chance to block 100% of the damage.
So DR capped has a 100% chance to block 50% of phy damage.
Zon's passives have a <70% (approx) chance to block 100% of phy dam.
Max shield block has a 75% chance to block 100% of phy damage.
If you have 1 hit point left, DP has a 100% chance to block 100% of phy damage, or any ele damage...therefore it's way more overpowered and different from all those d2 mods.
...unless we're interpreting the skill wrong or they change it.
The biggest difference of all is the AI involved. With DP, the game is saving your life at the last perfect second instead of the player doing it.
I just can't get this image out of my head: Your barb is standing there with 1 hit point left. A dueler hits him for 50k of damage. The barb then gets 30% of his health back.
So...that 50k blow is actually HEALING the barb from 1 hit point to 30% full health?? Some guy spent 1000 hours getting his damage up that high only to have it massively heal the guy he's fighting>?
The real problem is, DP is weaker than BO by a large margin. Any Barbarian worth his salt will take a skill that adds a 2.5x multiplier to his total life (as well as his party's and OTHER benefits) over a specialized back up ability that will save you only in very specific situations. It conveys only one functional advantage - a guaranteed full block of an attack and is inferior in every other way.
Since we're getting into differences/similarities of skills, I'd like to bring up the issue of your 500 life barb being hit with 20k of damage and surviving it no matter what with DP. BO could never do that. With BO, you can still get killed with a huge damage attack. With DP, nothing in the whole game will kill you--the 20k attack has to happen twice in a row. Hell, just for argument sake, let's make it 100k of damage. BO can't save you from that. DP can.
A Wizard's Temporal Armor spell can do that. Diablo 2's block could do that. Any form of attack evasion, present in both D3 and D2 can do that.
@bolded part: A monster fires a barrage of attacks that literally kill you in 1 hit. Suddenly, you die regardless of the vaunted DP. And what if that so-not-gonna-kill-you-attack occurs during DP's downtime?
I just can't get this image out of my head: Your barb is standing there with 1 hit point left. A dueler hits him for 50k of damage. The barb then gets 30% of his health back.
I just can't get a similar image out of my head. A dueler is wholly incapable of adapting to DP. Nevermind using an incredibly easy to hit with low damage attack to trigger DP and then following up with the mighty 50k damage attack.
Shield block has the cap, so again, it won't automatically save you like DP does. Shield block will remove 100% of the damage, but if you're unlucky it won't remove any of the damage so you sure wouldn't totally rely on it in HC. But DP has a 100% chance to block 100% of the damage.
Shield Block doesn't get disabled for over 5 minutes every time it triggers. Something like shield block literally saves you hundreds times your life worth of damage taken every play session.
The main concern for me, and maybe Gigashadow, is that DP is going to end up being the next BO. It's going to be the no-brainer skill that everyone maxes out.
I cannot fathom how anyone can justify maxing out a specialized skill that is, in general, will save you far less often than something like the example skill I put above.
What would a rational HC Barbarian do? Invest a significant portion of his total skillpoints, expecting to suffer a killing blow every 6 minutes? Or maybe put one point in it and gather up superior survival skills? At most this will be equivalent to D2's teleport - every sorc was required to have a point in it, every Barbarian will be required to have a point in this. And even then I don't see how any Hardcore player will rely on a skill that will trigger only when you put yourself in suicidal situations, which the Hardcore player avoids in the first place at all costs. Yes, this will save a lot of people who deserved to die for stupid mistake. But it will not save them from every such mistake, nor will it save even the smart Barbarians from every mistake they make. There are plenty of ways you can die as this skill triggers.
Gigashadow
26-10-2008, 21:36
Sigh.
Barb A has 1K life and casts BO adding 30% life. He takes 1K damage, doesn't die. He takes 300 more damage and dies. He respawns, recasts BO and takes 1.2K damage and doesn't die.
Barb B has 1K life and 30% DP. He takes 1K damage, doesn't die. He takes 300 more damage and dies. He respawns, takes 1.2K damage and dies. This is better how?
Diablo II: barb has 1K life + 30% from BO. He's hit for 2k and he dies. BO doesn't save him from death. If you're hit for 2k nothing will help you.
Diablo III: barb has 500 life and that's it. He's hit for 2k and he survives. It doesn't matter that you have 500 life, or 20 life left, you still won't die. And nobody would get hit the second time they'd just jump out.
Is this really so hard to understand?
Life-adding skills do not save you from death because they prevent death from happening in the first place...Shield Block doesn't get disabled for over 5 minutes every time it triggers. Something like shield block literally saves you hundreds times your life worth of damage taken every play session.Have you ever played HC, seriously? No decent HC player relies on Block to save them... but with DP... you can go around the place totally like "meh I have DP for now so I can just totally mess around.... oops, DP worked, now I need to be a bit more careful for 6 mins."
Besides, DP doesn't eliminate block, evasion, BO. It's not "instead". It's 'after". After all those you are finally killed, you survive...
Diablo II: barb has 1K life + 30% from BO. He's hit for 2k and he dies. BO doesn't save him from death. If you're hit for 2k nothing will help you.
Diablo III: barb has 500 life and that's it. He's hit for 2k and he survives. It doesn't matter that you have 500 life, or 20 life left, you still won't die. And nobody would get hit the second time they'd just jump out.
Is this really so hard to understand?
A. Barbarian playing Hardcore isn't going to play with expectation of tanking hits that kill him in one hit. He invests in a skill that allow him to survive a large variety of situations, i.e. the damage reduction skill or the dodge bonus skill.
B. Barbarian playing Hardcore with DP will be playing with expectation of being able to tank a hit that will kill him in one hit. He is identical to the other Barbarian in every way except he invested points in DP instead of one that will generally improve his survivability.
Guess which Barbarian will have a vastly shorter life expectancy against a variety of threats? Which Barbarian will be more willing to take risks and suffer from failures as a result?
Life-adding skills do not save you from death because they prevent death from happening in the first place..
Prevention of death is functionally identical to saving you from death. The purpose and outcome of both is your character not dieing.
Have you ever played HC, seriously? No decent HC player relies on Block to save them... but with DP... you can go around the place totally like "meh I have DP for now so I can just totally mess around.... oops, DP worked, now I need to be a bit more careful for 6 mins."
Have you? Max block is the golden goose of 99% of builds that utilize a shield. Are you going to tell me with a straight face that Max Block isn't one of D2's most powerful tools to prevent death?
"meh I have DP for now so I can just totally mess around... oops, I just died because a x% heal was completely inadequate to save me from this situation as I died a moment later. Damn, I shouldn't have played like an idiot, should have I?
Oh wait, if I put those points from DP into the dodge skill, I actually could have survived more than one of those super scary high damage attacks! Or those points would have improved my killing speed and the monsters wouldn't have had a chance to kill me in the first place!"
Besides, DP doesn't eliminate block, evasion, BO. It's not "instead". It's 'after". After all those you are finally killed, you survive...
Yes, it does eliminate some other benefit to your character. A point invested in DP is a point NOT invested somewhere else - and it's a point that doesn't do anything except when you get dropped to 0 HP.
You might also be interested in knowing that block and BO are, so far from the information we have, non-existant in Diablo 3 in form that they were in Diablo 2. Block no longer stops infinite damage, BO is simply not there.
Nimbostratus
26-10-2008, 22:16
Gigashadow: You're going on the assumption that D3 monsters will have lots of 1-hit kill strength attacks. D3 is actually veering away from that, preferring a more "war of attrition" mode of challenging the player. Also note that the DP barb that would otherwise die in one hit would still probably be put into hit recovery or a similar state, leaving him wide open for that second attack to finish him off.
Gigashadow
26-10-2008, 22:56
Gigashadow: You're going on the assumption that D3 monsters will have lots of 1-hit kill strength attacks.No, I'm not making any assumptions at all. I am saying that treating DP like BO is dumb because their functions are not the same. One is a temp buff that must be cast, another is an instant reactor to an event. No matter the game or situation those two will not be the same thing no matter how you tweak it and turn it.
Also note that the DP barb that would otherwise die in one hit would still probably be put into hit recovery or a similar state, leaving him wide open for that second attack to finish him off.Why would a second attack finish him off? Even in DII, most of the time if I drank a rejuv at the right moment, even a small one, I'd be all right and have enough leverage to run away or jump or teleport out.
If you're surrounded by 50 extra fast monsters or something... maybe... but if you are maybe you shouldn't be playing HC yet, because you don't get yourself into situations like that, lolHave you? Max block is the golden goose of 99% of builds that utilize a shield. Are you going to tell me with a straight face that Max Block isn't one of D2's most powerful tools to prevent death?I thought the golden goose was building your character properly, walking carefully, being smart in battle, watching your health and making sure it's always high...
An HC player would not rely on block. I personally use block to decrease overall damage dealt to me. But 75% block chance doesn't give me a feeling of safety at all. If I have 1 hp left I won't be hoping that block saves me, no I'm drinking that rejuv or TPing the hell outta there.
Block saves you if you screw up. Maybe. Are you telling me those 99 people risk all the time because they rely on the shield block to not die? LOL
oops, I just died because a x% heal was completely inadequate to save me from this situation as I died a moment later. Damn, I shouldn't have played like an idiot, should have I?Not viable. You are structuring a situation in which only an SC player would end up. HC players don't end up in situations where they can't get out...
Oh wait, if I put those points from DP into the dodge skill, I actually could have survived more than one of those super scary high damage attacks! Or those points would have improved my killing speed and the monsters wouldn't have had a chance to kill me in the first place!"If you rely on dodge to survive you won't last longer than past level 30.
Yes, it does eliminate some other benefit to your character. A point invested in DP is a point NOT invested somewhere else - and it's a point that doesn't do anything except when you get dropped to 0 HP.Dropping to 0 HP is the biggest concern of all HC players.
You might also be interested in knowing that block and BO are, so far from the information we have, non-existant in Diablo 3 in form that they were in Diablo 2. Block no longer stops infinite damage, BO is simply not there.BO may be there, just weakened. Shield will be there, weakened. DP will be there, not at all weakened, unless they nerf it, which I'm sure they will. DP will either just die as a skill or turn into something else. It will be either useless or too useful.
I thought the golden goose was building your character properly, walking carefully, being smart in battle, watching your health and making sure it's always high...
Have you? Max block is the golden goose of 99% of builds that utilize a shield. Are you going to tell me with a straight face that Max Block isn't one of D2's most powerful tools to prevent death?
An HC player would not rely on block. I personally use block to decrease overall damage dealt to me. But 75% block chance doesn't give me a feeling of safety at all. If I have 1 hp left I won't be hoping that block saves me, no I'm drinking that rejuv or TPing the hell outta there.
Block saves you if you screw up. Maybe. Are you telling me those 99 people risk all the time because they rely on the shield block to not die? LOL
A tool that reduces total incoming damage by 75% with smart play is one that I would consider to be very reliable.
What you described is general smart character building. What I put forth is the reason why the vast majority of builds use a shield. 75% block is that good - after you get past life and resists, it is probably more important than defense rating. It turns a well played character that survives most encounters into an invincible character short of a streak of terrible luck that would wipe out the toughest chars.
Not viable. You are structuring a situation in which only an SC player would end up. HC players don't end up in situations where they can't get out...
Irrelevant. If you play well enough to never end up in fatal situations, then DP is pointless. If you play with enough mistakes to end up in such situations, then DP will not prevent your character from eventually dieing.
If you rely on dodge to survive you won't last longer than past level 30.
If you rely on DP to survive you won't last longer than past level 30. Oh wait... Weren't you talking about "playing smart" and not "getting into such deadly situations"?
So wouldn't getting an extra 30-40% dodge rate contribute to both of those concepts? Or any other form of point investment that actually works through-out your character's play instead of situations where you deserved to die anyway?
Dropping to 0 HP is the biggest concern of all HC players.
Preventing the situation where you are in serious danger of dropping to 0 HP is the biggest concern of all HC players because if you get into these situations with any sort of regularity you WILL die, DP or not.
What you are saying is like saying that not getting nuked in event of a nuclear war is the biggest concern of any nation. The idea is, not getting to the point where there is a nuclear war is an infinitely better solution to not getting nuked.
BO may be there, just weakened. Shield will be there, weakened. DP will be there, not at all weakened, unless they nerf it, which I'm sure they will. DP will either just die as a skill or turn into something else. It will be either useless or too useful.
Ever considered the possibility that it will be in between? Not something you build your character around but a nice tool worth spending a point or few on? The only characters I honestly see getting any real use out of DP are PvP builds.
Nimbostratus
27-10-2008, 00:57
No, I'm not making any assumptions at all. I am saying that treating DP like BO is dumb because their functions are not the same. One is a temp buff that must be cast, another is an instant reactor to an event. No matter the game or situation those two will not be the same thing no matter how you tweak it and turn it.
In anything besides cases of 30%+ damage in one hit, BO and DP give the same overall effect: You can take more damage than your base HP. The difference between a prebuff and a passive is practically nil. Any good player will always have it active, and it lasts a good amount of time. If it was only something that lasted a few seconds, okay, I could see an argument there. But BO lasts a few minutes. Close enough to a passive.
Why would a second attack finish him off? Even in DII, most of the time if I drank a rejuv at the right moment, even a small one, I'd be all right and have enough leverage to run away or jump or teleport out.
If you're surrounded by 50 extra fast monsters or something... maybe... but if you are maybe you shouldn't be playing HC yet, because you don't get yourself into situations like that, lolI thought the golden goose was building your character properly, walking carefully, being smart in battle, watching your health and making sure it's always high...
It was your own example that one hit would take the barb from full to zero. Even if that potion full restored him, that second hit would still take him down. And remember that D3 is trying to greatly cut down on potion use- I HIGHLY doubt they'll keep those unbalanced, "instantly back to full" rejuvenation potions around anyway.
That_Other_Guy
27-10-2008, 05:13
I think the biggest effect of Death Proof is giving people playing a Barbarian an "I'm invincible" sort of mindset that the other characters won't have. (They'll need it, given the way their skills work now.) They can take a chance and stay under 50% life longer than other classes, not shying away or using resources where other classes would.
I think it's a good way of setting the Barbarian apart from other characters.
Throndhart
27-10-2008, 09:58
I think the biggest effect of Death Proof is giving people playing a Barbarian an "I'm invincible" sort of mindset that the other characters won't have. (They'll need it, given the way their skills work now.) They can take a chance and stay under 50% life longer than other classes, not shying away or using resources where other classes would.
I think it's a good way of setting the Barbarian apart from other characters.
This is a good point. Keep in mind that the Barbarian now needs to stay in combat to be useful, which means that, to have less downtime, you will want to go from a bunch of monsters to the other in the shortest amount of time possible. Death Proof gives barbarians the chance to keep killing for a bit of time longer than other characters, thus reducing their downtime.
Panamaican
30-10-2008, 20:51
I don't want to get too embroiled in this discussion but I wanted to make sure that everyone was operating under the knowledge that there won't be a rejuvenation potions or health potions in D3. I think that's a singificant difference considering how many times any class, Barb or not, "cheated" death by drinking a max rejuv moments before death. Functionally, isn't DP just like a partial rejuv you get to drink once every 5 minutes?
gigashadow u need to shut up cuz u sound like u'v never played d2 before u dont kno ****.
gigashadow u need to shut up cuz u sound like u'v never played d2 before u dont kno ****.
I think you should shut up and not post again until you have learned to speak and post in English and not like a twelve year old in an AOHELL chat room.
You should also read the forum rules before some unnamed moderator decides to relieve you of your ability to post on these forums.
Apocalypse
31-10-2008, 01:18
I don't want to get too embroiled in this discussion but I wanted to make sure that everyone was operating under the knowledge that there won't be a rejuvenation potions or health potions in D3. I think that's a singificant difference considering how many times any class, Barb or not, "cheated" death by drinking a max rejuv moments before death. Functionally, isn't DP just like a partial rejuv you get to drink once every 5 minutes?
1. there is health potions in D3
2. DP is like a rejuv potion thats sets on a macro to go off the second someone lands a killing blow bringing you back 30% life
also what people are not really bring up is his damage reduction skill. that skill is pretty much like BO except it to is a passive if i am not mistaken, a passive that works as the barb is low on health.
really though the major difference between BO and DP is one is passive and 1 is casted. the casted one can wear off in the middle of a fight(should not allow it to but it still can) but DP is a worry free skill. you die get 30% hp back. sure its on a 5 min timer but that just sounds like a bathroom break to me
I brought it up!
That skill looks amazing, and if DR from different sources stacks, half of the Barbarian's life orb probably won't even account for 10% of his total HP.
Not truly wanting to get involved in this flame war, but I do have an opinion.
I think the skill Death Proof is going to be enjoyable.
I do not compare it to Battle Orders, I consider it to be different.
I do not believe there would be any downtime, it would be like drinking a rejuv in D2.
However, how many times have you (or certainly I) been happily -or frantically - clicking away, and then look down to see your health is in trouble?
Several, if you're ever careless - as I am.
And what is to say there is actually an 'alert' to say Death Proof just activated? For all we know, the barb can be swinging and leaping to his heart's content, look at his orb and say... about 20% ... but has Death Proof already triggered??
I 100% DO NOT BELIEVE it will be God's saving grace for Hard Core in Diablo 3.
There is first the argument that points spent in DP are points not spent in effective combat skills. This means you actually rely on it more than someone who didn't spend the points. Which is FINE - you spend points on a skill, you wanna use it, right?
That's why you spend points there.
So, in that sense, I think the skill works wonderfully.
Second, there is the argument that you only get to use this once - on a fatal blow - in at LEAST every five minutes. I know I can go a lot longer than five minutes without dying. Just think of all the Hard Core characters who already have never needed this skill in D2, which is much more 1-hit-kill prone, if what we read is true.
I hardly think these HC players will change their mindset on tactical play because they have a buffer.
I love that this skill exists because I think it is a great red herring.
I love it also that it changes the mind set of players, and how different players will play the same character.
I, personally, would avoid this skill, and put 1 point in a skill that deals more damage as my health lowers - as my buffer - and try to keep my health as full as possible.
Then all my other skills would be to increase damage, crit hits, and survivability. If I get to 50% health, I want more, but I'm now doing more damage to "get me out of trouble".
However, other players might invest highly in that skill, try to stay on 40% health, but use DP as their buffer, to put them back up to 30% - in doing so, keeping beneath their 50% for increased damage.
Also there is the argument that D3 will be a war of attrition, rather than a one hit kill fest.
This means, for an example, you walk into a room and you are peppered by arrows, while the wall of zombies rush you. You walk backwards to attack each zombie as it reaches melee range, but you are still peppered by arrows.
If you are being hit by small but frequent attacks your health attrition will be constant. But this does not suggest it will be slow. You might walk into a room with 35% health (no orbs dropped in the last three combats) and now you're unexpectedly peppered by arrows? You might lose that 35% health, DP back to 30% health, and still be no closer to dealing with those archers. Sure you can run away, but you're no better off than you were - you still need to get through those archers.
I cannot for the life of me see how this skill is a problem. I believe the controversy is purely derived from taking the skill and placing it into a D2 environment (where it would truly be broken). This, of course, will never occur.
To make one last point, let's take another class - the wizard - and place them in the same situation.
As an automatic reflex to the sound of arrows, she casts her slow missile globe, and then has time to reflect the projectiles out, taking no damage at all. Then she uses lightning to destroy the enemies.
I think the *real* question we need to ask is how can DP be affected by the use of runes, if indeed it can?
How exciting can it be if we have a rune that can - for example - triple the effect of a skill? Now you heal to 90%! But would you use that rune on a one-time use skill, or throw it into your max damage skill? You'd get more use from there, but you'd die to a group of archers....
ScarletPinata
31-10-2008, 06:28
heh. It sounds vageuly similar to 'last stand' in call of duty 4. It was a skill (orwhatever they call it) that when you died, you'd sort of get knocked prone and have a pistol out, essentially, you got a quick second chance at killing the guy who just killed you in some form of heroid 'last stand'. The thing is, if noone knew you had it, you could score quite a few kills from unprepared people, but as soon as people knew who had it, they'd just pepper you with a few more bullets to make sure you stayed dead. As far as i can tell...if a barb gets hit by an attack that kills him, wouldn't he at least have to say get up or something? ie, wouldn't blizzard in their infinite wisdom, at the very elast make it so there's some form of penalty to suffering a death? as in, mebs the barb gets knocked to the floor and has to get up again, so if he dies unluckily by some stray arrow or soemthing, he'd be fine, BUT, if he'd rushed into a huge mob and died...he'd probably get killed athousdand times over by the time he got back up again. Either way, i'm fairly sure the skill'll get tweaked to suit the game :D
That_Other_Guy
31-10-2008, 08:21
Even if it is a ubiquitous skill, that doesn't necessarily mean everyone will max it (I'm reserving judgment on that until we know what additional points would do). Battle Orders, yes, that tends to be maxed. But most Sorcs don't put anywhere near 20 points in Teleport or Warmth, and those are two of the most universal Sorc skills.
It may not limit the Barb's versatility as much as we think...but reading all this gives me a feeling that this is a skill that will see some "tweaks" in later patches...
Apocalypse
31-10-2008, 13:19
the skill as we know it only had 1 point in it right? is 1 point = 30% with 5 min timer who knows how good it could be. personally even if it got better i would leave at 1 as i feel that is more than enough
stillman
31-10-2008, 13:29
Cogline,
Those are good points, but the situation you described of entering a room of zombies and archers imo would just be more reason for every last person to invest in DP. They may be screwed in such a situation anyway as you implied, but DP will take away the surprise. They'll get killed and res'd to 30% health, then realize they're in a jam, so now it's time to start being careful and escaping. It's your second chance to work on S&E strategy, or at least back out of the room. Why would anyone not invest in it?
Well one reason, as you mentioned, is it means less points in damage skills. But the majority of people on bnet nowadays aren't making glass cannons to get every last point contributing to damage. In fact, they're going the opposite way by maximizing life and using the bare minimum of str to equip gear. Even though d3 will be a different game than d2 is now, the life-dwelling mindset built up over all these years might be hard to remove.
Actually, since DP is very much like a healing skill, perhaps the only or most effective healing spell in the game, it might attract even more people to using it. This is a bad thing imo if everyone uses it and it becomes a household name like BO or tele.
I think the skill will indeed be a "God's given grace" because it is as though God is clicking the rejuv for us at the perfect time with 100% acuracy--something no mortal player could ever do on his own consistently.
To those who are saying the barb should have that extra help since he must stay in combat to use his skills: maybe there are other ways of doing this. They could make an instant heal skill (called Death Throws) that you can only use when you're down to <20% life and it heals you to XX% health but you have to click it yourself, and of course it has to have a cooldown period like 300 seconds or w/e. This would also set the barb apart from the other classes because only he can instantly heal himself with a skill.
I think the name Death Proof alone is going to attract a vast number of players to focusing in it.
Hello all, I'm fairly new to d2 but I have some thoughts on this.
Why are people comparing death proof to battle orders? Okay so from the looks of it it grants back 30% life when your hp hits or is about to hit 0.
The difference is a 3 hp barb can tank a single 9999 damage blow with death proof and have 1 hp afterward....means you should probably run away from whatever you're fighting. A Barb using only battle orders at 9000hp will die~~
Death Proof and Battle orders are not alike at all.
Anywho, I'd say it's a good skill for the barb since the barb is the tank of any party and is usually the first to take any high damage attack from the enemy. I'd like to think people are considering partying up in HC instead of soloing~
Apocalypse
31-10-2008, 16:25
my 3hp barb was pretty good actually, made it to level 4 hc
Culicidae
04-11-2008, 02:24
Another thing I thought of...
I'm not so sure that Death Proof will become a staple for every barb build even. I believe it is a third tier skill in the Battlemaster tree, and that you would need to spend 10 skill points just to get to it. 10 skill point prerequisites is quite a lot to just get to this one skill that is essentially just a backup. There are some useful Battlemaster skills that should help all barbs (Iron Skin, Scavenge, Critical Attacks), but not everyone will want to always spend their skill points here.
Its just the wow rogues cheat death...possibly the most annoying ability in the game, i really dont like where a lot of these abilities are going, they just seem way too wow influenced. A heck of a lot of abilities for the barb are just clearly wow abilities renamed and tweaked abit, boring passive crap like dodge, sweeping strikes..last stand even fecking anger management, reduces FURY decay, what a boring dull ability :x the list just goes on an on, Ive got a feeling it just aint gonna feel like diablo at all
/doomsday end
Farmrush
10-11-2008, 04:45
Another thing I thought of...
I'm not so sure that Death Proof will become a staple for every barb build even. I believe it is a third tier skill in the Battlemaster tree, and that you would need to spend 10 skill points just to get to it. 10 skill point prerequisites is quite a lot to just get to this one skill that is essentially just a backup. There are some useful Battlemaster skills that should help all barbs (Iron Skin, Scavenge, Critical Attacks), but not everyone will want to always spend their skill points here.
Thanks for this post, I enjoyed reading it.
It should also be noted(!!) that 300 seconds (again this isn't final, but we'll work with it) is 5 minutes. 5 minutes running through a dungeon in a diablo game is a lot of time to get yourself killed again, especially if you die in the middle of a horde of monsters and resurrect with 30% hp. There are some issues with this in HC, because a player might just die and then leave before he resurrects with Death Proof, but I have some faith this will be addressed. It may also only be available to Barbarians specializing in the Battlemaster Tree. I like this skill, I can just imagine equipping it with a striking rune and then exploding back into life after I die. I think it would cause a lot less fuss if it was labeled "Increases Barbarians maximum life by 30%" (which it effectively does, although I know it is more complicated than this in totality). That combined with the fact that the numbers aren't final at all and I'm not entirely worried about the skill. They aren't going to allow a single skill that makes you effectively immortal, and if they do it's going to get fixed pretty damn fast.
Gigashadow
10-11-2008, 12:22
I play Diablo for 2-3 hours sometimes and during that time maybe I have one critical situation... I don't die that often.
Maybe we die lots more in DIII, but that would cause a different problem.
Damnatorius
11-11-2008, 09:30
Perhaps it will be much harder to flee from dangerous monsters in DIII. For example: They are faster than you, you don't have TPs, a timer on save & exit, etc.
Making it not so much that you die more often, just that once you ARE in a situation you might die, it'll be quite hard to get out of, and this skill will only provide a small extension of time to finish off whatever is killing you and then retreat unlike in DII where it would be equivalent to pretty much full immunity.
Gigashadow
11-11-2008, 12:13
I don't like that, either. They game shouldn't kill you every five minutes, lol
Damnatorius
11-11-2008, 22:06
I said, it wouldn't kill you often, just it is really hard to get out of trouble once you do get in mortal danger. So the 30% bonus wouldn't be an assurance you'd make it through.
Gigashadow
11-11-2008, 22:15
It's all just speculation... nothing seen in the videos makes me think we can't escape just as we had in DII. Leap's still in. As is everything else. Unless monsters would stun as left and right... but that would ruin gameplay in general. I have trouble finding the balance between not dying way too often and, at the same time, not being invincible because of Death Proof.
Damnatorius
12-11-2008, 11:49
True, will just have to wait and see how it fits into the game really.
jakotaco
21-11-2008, 20:43
Getting instantly ressurected does a lot for survivability in hardcore to say the least, a quick save and exit if available would indeed make this skill overpowered for hardcore characters. However, if you can't log out that fast and if you are ressurected in the same spot right into combat then it might not be that overpowered.
If you look at the Wizard he's got quite some survivability aswell, Temporal Armor (undamagable if you haven't been struck for 6 seconds) and Time Stop for example.
FireCrack
24-11-2008, 01:20
The way i see this skill is that it will not be making you totaly invincible becasue there are only two situations in which you will likely die.
1) You're swarmed and overwhelmed by enemies, coming back to life at 30% health ain't going to help you much, you'll likely just die again. The situation is effectively the same as just having 30% more health to begin with. Even on hardcore, if the resurrection is instant you will likely only be provided with a paltry amount more time to scumquit. In that case it is again just like having 30% more health to begin with.
2)Insta-death to some unforeseen event (ex: iron maiden in d2). Presumably this is waht the skill is supposed to guard against...
Interesting skill.
I'm playing hc since years. When I'll make a barb in D3, ofc I will never get this noob-chicken-cheat-skill.
I think perhaps the skill is OK for playig sc, or perhaps in duels for balancing purposes (for example, if the barb need Fury to start to use skills and he is empty, this skill might help a bit in terms of balance).
Other than that, fot hc barbs... I hate this skill a lot. No way. I think only sc players would get it. A true hc player should never take it. Insane. Ridiculous.
Is reviving all of these old threads your way of expressing your desire for the necromancer to return?
Is reviving all of these old threads your way of expressing your desire for the necromancer to return?
No dude. I like a lot what Blizzard is showing in D3. I was a druid/necromancer/barb player, but I like the new Witch Doctor a lot. I also like the new Barbarian, very powerful in the video and Blizzcon.
I just arrived at this forum, and I'm learning from your posts about the upcoming D3. When I see an interesting topic, I post to share with you all my ideas or vision or feelings, like all of you do. I think it is better this way, answering the interesting posts, and not what trolls usually do, like creating some and some posts whinng about necros, assas, art style, or things like those. If there is a created post about one theme, I think the correct way is writing down in it and don't create a new exactly one. This is what I'm doing. First read, and then write if I got something to tell.
I think it is uncertainly you will see a new post mine whinning about how bad is Blizzard for make a WD, or things like that. I just read, and write anytime I see an interesting topic and I can add my opinion. This is a forum, if you don't knw it ;)
In this post, some people talk about this skill. There are some who like it; and there are some (normally hc players) who hate it, like me.
If you read the first page, you will see for example Flux telling more or less the same:
If it's a free resurrect every 5 minutes, that's stupid.
I entirely agree with him, because I suppose, as me, he is a true hardcore player.
GoldenBird
02-02-2009, 02:53
I agree that it would take away the "thrill" in an HC world, but on the other hand it might be useful during a lag spike or such. Mind, I haven't seen a lag spike in D2 for who knows how long...
It may pose a problem for PvP. It could take longer than 300 seconds to kill someone.
I agree that it would take away the "thrill" in an HC world, but on the other hand it might be useful during a lag spike or such. Mind, I haven't seen a lag spike in D2 for who knows how long...
Sure, it can protect from lag but... I think there are other chars who suffer most from lag.
In D2 I never lose a barbarian because of lag. You can normally save and exit, and he got some vitality, and defense, and dr, and so on.
Because of lag, instead, you can lose cast oriented characters, because they're weaker and got less health.
I think this skill is not created because of lag. Only Blizzard knows it, but I think it is for balaced purposes. Perhaps is sc it is OK, but in hc I think its a complete error.
Just my opinion.
Doctor Salvador
02-02-2009, 22:07
I wouldn't really be surprised if Blizz just kinda said "Yeah you guys are right, it's a bad idea". I just don't see how this is anything but a HC softener. Whether or not it will really be able to save your barb, something like this is just bleh.
Plus the name Death Proof??? Good lord, Steven Seagal is gonna sue just 'cause it sounds like a Seagal movie.
Fruitvendor
26-05-2009, 14:38
How come the vast majority of the posters here seem to have little confidence in Blizzard's ability to make a good, well-balanced game?
I'm reading through the D3 skills tree and everytime a skeptical idea arises in my head I tell myself "they must've thought about this too, since they're the pros"...
Me, myself has played on HC for most if not all of the time. When I first saw the Barbarian I thought to myself, now that's a good character to start HC since my D2 experience tells me he's the most durable type of character. But when I saw the Fury Meter, I realized this isn't gonna be easy like D2. The Barbarian in D3 might be one of the riskiest character to play for he needs an aggresive style of play to be effective. "Aggressive playing style" just doesn't sound right for a HC player, unless you are already a pro.
Hence, this Death Proof skills seems to be a very reasonale edge to the Barb's kamakazie type of playing style.
I thought about this and realized that Death Proof is fair. The wizard and witch-doctor each have "escape skills" to help them get away, such as Horrify, teleport, and frost nova. Barbarian, however, does not. Sure, there is charge and leap attack, but those require fury, which you may not have when you need it. Hence, death proof lets you escape death once in a while.
lazylink
17-06-2009, 20:50
If they bring Iron Maiden back I doubt anyone will complain about Death Proof :whistling:
Seriously, why is there such a fuss about this? Skills similar to death proof are in many games.
It's essentially the same as adding 30% extra health. if you die in a mob, you get ressed, and die again immediately.
Beneficial dying? Not really. Cheat death has a cooldown. It's like you have 130% life, then someone says "it's good to lose 105% life, because then you get an extra 25% life". No, the extra 25% is there all the time. If you don't lose that first 105%, it's much better, since then damage after that does not take from those reserves.
Really guys, let's say you fight a boss. You die, but cheat death activates... You're still fighting a boss, who you already died to, and this time you have only 30% life.
It is essentially similar to 30% extra life, every five minutes.
Risingred
13-07-2009, 17:26
If they bring Iron Maiden back I doubt anyone will complain about Death Proof :whistling:
I bet you're right. But hopefully they won't do something as lame as IM.
Seriously, why is there such a fuss about this? Skills similar to death proof are in many games.
How many games have a hardcore mode like D2? It's the only type of game like that which I can think of.
This is where the main problem with the skill is. I don't think it's overpowered, really, because I haven't played the game. I do think it's kind of lame if they had it in HC, though.
Runestar
18-07-2009, 04:04
Then maybe hardcore will simply have to go, if retaining it will cause cool skills such as "death proof" to be problematic.
This can also open up several possibilities on other "contingency" spells that autocast whenever a condition is met. Like stoneskin on a wizard.
Funkopotamus
18-07-2009, 07:28
I agree that it would take away the "thrill" in an HC world, but on the other hand it might be useful during a lag spike or such. Mind, I haven't seen a lag spike in D2 for who knows how long...
It may pose a problem for PvP. It could take longer than 300 seconds to kill someone.
That one's easy.
"First death is a win."
"'kay"
stillman
18-07-2009, 09:38
How come the vast majority of the posters here seem to have little confidence in Blizzard's ability to make a good, well-balanced game?
Because look at d2 and d1. We don't want the same mistakes.
Seriously, why is there such a fuss about this? Skills similar to death proof are in many games.
It's essentially the same as adding 30% extra health. if you die in a mob, you get ressed, and die again immediately.
My main beef: Look at bo in d2. EVERY barb used it, and if it only added let's say 30% to your health instead of doubling it, I'm sure everyone would still use it. I remember Brother Laz saying something about max block % being reduced drastically in his game and everyone still pumped points into dex to max it. There is an obvious craze over life points, and death proof is just asking for trouble. I don't want every last barb on bnet2 to feel condemed to using the same skill.
Basically, I won't play a barb in d2 because I have 20 less skill points to put where I choose. Those points must go into bo or my barb sucks compared to others' barbs. Death proof looks like a similar situation.
SlechtWeerBeer
22-07-2009, 12:36
My main beef: Look at bo in d2. EVERY barb used it, and if it only added let's say 30% to your health instead of doubling it, I'm sure everyone would still use it. I remember Brother Laz saying something about max block % being reduced drastically in his game and everyone still pumped points into dex to max it. There is an obvious craze over life points, and death proof is just asking for trouble. I don't want every last barb on bnet2 to feel condemed to using the same skill.
Basically, I won't play a barb in d2 because I have 20 less skill points to put where I choose. Those points must go into bo or my barb sucks compared to others' barbs. Death proof looks like a similar situation.
Max block is awesome because you can easily reduce blockspeed, and you get 75% damage reduction from physical attacks.
Other than that; I bet they're already rethinking/have removed Death Proof. First post by Bash (http://d3db.com/bluetracker/item/18358906429).
LongScar
22-07-2009, 19:05
If BO is so overpowered, why are there so few barbs playing?
Seems to me, based on D2 play, that any time I'm in a situation where my life ball is dropping fast enough to kill me, getting a 30% life back probably won't save me, because I'm already in over my head and popping full rejuvs like mad. If a barb gets into a situation where he gets killed, it's not generally some devastating single strike, he's gotten mobbed, and if he lost 1 life ball in the fight, odds of him being able to back away with just a third of a ball is really poor.
Now if you see your life dropping and start to run, it may occasionally save your butt by surviving a parting shot as you run, but if you die in the middle of a mob, 30% isn't going to mean squat.
If BO is so overpowered, why are there so few barbs playing?
His point wasn't that it was OP, it was that every Barb out there is an idiot if he doesn't grab BO because there is hardly any reason NOT to use it, it's good enough that you'd be a fool to pass it up.
I think the "Death Proof in HC" drama could be avoided if Death Proof just has a slightly different effect in HC (IE: instead of popping back to life, just give a health boost whenever the Barb's health goes below 5% or whatever, But if he's at 10% health and takes a single attack that takes him to zero, then he just dies, since the health goes straight to zero, iand doesn't really go to a point below 5%, if that makes sense.)
Runestar
23-07-2009, 11:40
If BO is so overpowered, why are there so few barbs playing?
You don't look at the absolute number of players playing barbs, you should look at the proportion of barb players who acquire battle orders. It is interesting that just about every guide I have read thus far advocates maxing out BO and its syngergies sooner or later. Which is quite telling.
Basically, the poster's point is that while it is not sufficient to make a barb overpowered by itself, it is a fairly potent barb skill which any player who not hesitate to take at the 1st opportunity.
LongScar
24-07-2009, 00:12
I only played barbs so I don't know, but are there no other skills that were in nearly every build like that for any other classes?
Aside from the BO, I still think if it's like D2, that death proof would not be a guaranteed save by any means, as when I hit a pack that had the right combination of aura's to do that kind of damage to me, odds are I couldn't even leap or teleport away fast enough to save myself, if they can take 3/4 of my life ball that fast that I couldn't do something about it, odds are 1/3rd isn't going to be enough for a get away, without some skill at being able to evade them anyway.
I generally give Blizzard the benefit of the doubt, and since I have not been able to play the game, see the skill as it is presented in the game, or seen the skill in use in the game, I'm not going to draw to conclusions about it
God some of you are really looking at it the wrong way...
Death proof is a defensive skill like all the other ones, they make a character live longer, period, that's it.
death proof = +30% hp = 30% more damage required to kill the barbarian (but with a 5 minute cooldown)
arcane armor = While your Storm Armor, Stone Armor, Stone Skin or Temporal Armor spells are active, your armor is increased by X% = X% more damage required to kill the wizard (unknown cooldown)
temporal armor = Surrounds the Wizard in a protective shell that stops all damage from an attack every X seconds. The shell dissipates after absorbing X attacks. = X more damage required to kill the wizard (unknown cooldown)
damage resistance = Increases armor by X% and all resistances by X% = X more damage required to kill the wizard (unknown cooldown, could be a passive skill, i dont know)
Stop looking at the name, stop looking at how it works but at what it does in the big picture, it lowers the odds of you actually getting killed, that's all.
@the bo vs death proof issue :
One of the main reasons why every barbarian had it was because it was so easy to get and there were 0 skills available that could possible be more useful than bo.
Death proof and battle orders are basically the same, they both add hp but one does it constantly (if you remember to keep bo up) and one does it once during combat with a cooldown.
If skillpoints are limited and there could be other skills equally useful as death proof someone could get them instead of death proof.
Hi!
I don't like the mechanics of this skill for HC. For SC i could care less about the death avoiding part but in HC you should die when you die. The thing is that it seems like other characters will get similar skills also. The one for sorc that blocks attacks every x second is pretty insane. Ok i addmit it's not as safe as DP as DP also heals you, but you could say Sorc can teleport away when his shield gets hit. I think the most usefull times for DP are sudden huge hits like fire enchanted enemies exploding.
Most likely all classes will have death defying abilities so i think it's pretty pointless to argue about unbalances when you haven't seen the other classes skills. What you can talk about is the nature of HC mode and not getting killed when you get killed. I think biggest risk in hand is that these skills will be made work on x% wich would make these skills useless as you can't count on % when you are playing HC. Things need to work every time, because the one time it doesen't work you won't have a second chance.
PS: Stop it with the BO. Completely different mechanic, completely different game. If some overpowered stuff was in old game it should not have nothing to do with the new game. "That game has it so it's not unbalanced in this game" is not an valid argument. D2 had stuff like IM and BO doesen't eaven come close to it.
Did you even read my post Typoko or you just don't get it?
Complaining about this skill being in HC too is like telling a wizard not to use a shield or a witch doctor not to use zombie walls. They're all defensive skills and they all prolong life, that's it.
*big yawn*
DavidJewer
27-07-2009, 08:45
Is it fair to other chrs, or should they have death defying skills/spells of their own? If they don't, will HC mode be all barbs?
Barbarians have higher HP (potential) than any other class (in D2) and that hasn't given them an unfair advantage in HC. I think the death-proof skill will just save a Barbarian from a bad-luck death and will be mandatory in HC but completely useless (and possibly have no points put into it in an end-game build) in regular.
As far as your concern with Death-proof being activated during PvP. Maybe if you're killed by another human-controlled player death-proof doesn't activate.
Hi!
Did you even read my post Typoko or you just don't get it?
Complaining about this skill being in HC too is like telling a wizard not to use a shield or a witch doctor not to use zombie walls. They're all defensive skills and they all prolong life, that's it.
*big yawn*
Usually i don't reply to posts that have no sense in them, but i guess i could do it now and then...
Did you read my post past the first sentence? I eaven mentioned the sorc shield being about the same level! As far as i can see you can't grasp the idea why DP is more than +30% hp eaven at the tenth page of this thread so i won't go over it again.
And for the record i did not say people should not use it. I said i don't like the mechanics of the skill but if it's in game ofc people should use it. Using every tool you are given is just a good way to play the game.
Untill we get skill list of every class i don't think this conversation has no meaning, eaven if it would rise up from the dead with 30% posts in it.
*sunglasses* YEAAAAAHHH
The thing about Death Proof that makes it completely different from simple survivability skills is this:
If I have 100 health and get hit for 400, then that's an overkill of 300 points.
If I had 130 (30% more) health, I still wouldn't have survived that.
If I the damage was reduced by 30% I still wouldn't have survived that.
Yet despite all this, I'm alive after the smoke clears.
That's why I think DP should simply give you health before death, So if I have 100 health and take 91 damage (Let's say in HC, Death Proof activate if and only if your Health is less than 10% max health), then Death proof kicks in and gives me a quick insta-heal.
So if you get overkilled like earlier in HC you still die, since you health never goes under 10% of your max, it just jumps to 0. (Ok, 0 is invariably less than 10% of a non-zero health value, but 0=Death, soo...just suspend your mathematical disbelief)
I"m not sure if it's possible to change skills across game modes like that, but it's a passable enough solution in my eyes.
LongScar
27-07-2009, 18:49
Lets not forget, that a barb is the character that has to go toe to toe with the badguys, looks like the casters have ways to keep a horde off them, such as summoning walls, or creating mana bubbles, the barb is expected to stay in the thick of it, if he doesn't have skills like he did in d2 with howl and taunt to help mob control, this may be needed just to give him a chance once in a while when over his head, it's nothing more then a bonus hit while he is trying to retreat.
I just can't imagine a situation where a barb loses that much life that fast, that a 30% instant regen will allow him to stay in the thick of it. If he is not already retreating, he will still likely wind up dead. Think about walking into a group of gloams with low lightning resists, health would drop so fast, that odds are that 30% bonus would keep you alive for a second or two more. I don't know how things will be in D3, but if it's anything remotely like D2 for the way monsters cause damage, it won't be overpowered, I don't even see it overpowered in HC. Based on my D2 experience, having that skill added onto all the rest my barb has, would very rarely make a difference, I can tank 99% of the game, and that 1% I end up over my head so fast, that I have to some seriously fast reacting and pot drinking to get out alive, sure Death Proof may have saved my butt a couple of times, but I certainly don't see where it would have helped every time, or even most times.
Discussions theorizing about skills yet to be fully unveiled, in a game that is far from being finalized, are all well and good.
Arguing about their being OMG! overpowered!!! is just plain dumb.
Runestar
28-07-2009, 02:00
If I have 100 health and get hit for 400, then that's an overkill of 300 points.
If I had 130 (30% more) health, I still wouldn't have survived that.
If I the damage was reduced by 30% I still wouldn't have survived that.
Yet despite all this, I'm alive after the smoke clears.
I am guessing that blizzard will be trying to avoid this sort of scenario. What sort of foe would be able to hit you for 4 times your hp in damage (and we are talking about a class that will likely have the most hp in the game!). This just means that you survive 1 hit, but not the 2nd. And the long cooldown means that it will be a while before it can save you again.
Is your example possible? Yes.
Does it seem likely? No.
I am guessing that blizzard will be trying to avoid this sort of scenario. What sort of foe would be able to hit you for 4 times your hp in damage (and we are talking about a class that will likely have the most hp in the game!). This just means that you survive 1 hit, but not the 2nd. And the long cooldown means that it will be a while before it can save you again.
Is your example possible? Yes.
Does it seem likely? No.
I was exaggerating.
Grossly.
The point was that you can't pretend that Death Proof is the same as some skill that just buffs your health by 30 percent or like some 30% heal.
Runestar
28-07-2009, 05:33
I was exaggerating.
Grossly.
The point was that you can't pretend that Death Proof is the same as some skill that just buffs your health by 30 percent or like some 30% heal.
You are right, I can't.
If anything, DeathProof seems much inferior to an extra 30% life, largely due to its long cooldown rate. This means I only have the equivalent of that extra life once every few minutes, while the latter will always have access to the extra life (which can be replenished via globes and the town healer (assuming there is one). I don't need to keep checking when DP is available again (since I will personally find it a bore to wait in town for it to refresh).
stillman
28-07-2009, 14:28
I wanted to mention something about the situations described with auras, gloams, and other massive damage one-hit kill type of monster attacks: Blizzard seems to frown on this aspect of d2, so it would make sense for them to consider not doing it in d3. They said d2 got so easy that the only way they could challenge players was to throw one-hit kills at them like from dolls, gloams, etc. They didn't speak highly of this sort of thing, so I think it would logically be out of d3.
Thus, I figgure players would not get overwhelmed and killed anyway with DP as implied.
Runestar
28-07-2009, 15:39
They should have implemented a cooldown on potions in D2. This way, players could not spam pots of full-rejuv every few seconds.
With the health-orb system in D3, I think it is a step in the right direction.
LongScar
28-07-2009, 15:59
I don't see any reason to doubt you stillman, although without massive damage dealers like that, I have a tough time seeing a well played barbarian getting himself into trouble very often, we will have to see the gameplay in D3 to know.
I was tossing it out there only as how I see it's effects would be in D2, and specified that, because that is the frame of reference most of us are still seeing the new skills in, not because it's right, but because for the most part thats the closest frame of reference we have.
Irregardless I have faith that Blizzard will do it right, and it will be well balanced.
will be well balanced.
And if it isn't... lets just say SC2 is a pretty fine game in itself
Runestar
04-08-2009, 15:03
That's what patches are for, aren't they? Don't be too surprised to see Blizzard release a patch on the same day D3 is released...:whistling:
That's what patches are for, aren't they? Don't be too surprised to see Blizzard release a patch on the same day D3 is released...:whistling:
Only to fix the undoubtedly many server crashes that'll take place....and introduce LAN ;p
Two conditions:
Death Proof stays in = okay to bring back FE bug, exploding dolls, IM and more. Assuming the Barb is supposed to tank, this may even be necessary.
Death Proof is out = insta-kill situations vastly reduced in scope and number, possibly limited to act bosses and such.
Regarding HC Vs. SC and this skill, thats a whole new argument. As this type of game is evolving, and it must be said, coming closer to the gameplay mechanics of WoW, it may be time to throw away HC entirely. Why? Its simple, games are tough to program, and balance, and if a game is balanced to be able to insta-gib players, then permanent character death even as an option is foolish.
However if its balanced so as to not be able to insta-kill players, assuming a modicum of base skill on behalf of the player, then a HC mode is okay, provided that lag issues, ridiculous issues like TPPK and PK hacks, and others are fixed in a timely fashion.
From a gameplay perspective, this skill fits right in with the icon of the raging barbarian throwing caution to the winds. A prudent player would have this skill, but try NOT to die every five minutes, its an emergency backup. Of course, as has been said, if a player has gotten himself into just such a situation, then a 30% health rez may be a moot point.
I'll reserve my judgment until the game is released, but I think the skill has merit, especially in HC (if that mode is retained in the final release), given that the Barb MUST be engaged in combat constantly to be effective at all, and this can provide a sort of relief valve from all that furious clicking lol.
Death Proof is gone so far (http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=737778) Read a bit before posting will you?
You don't look at the absolute number of players playing barbs, you should look at the proportion of barb players who acquire battle orders. It is interesting that just about every guide I have read thus far advocates maxing out BO and its syngergies sooner or later. Which is quite telling.
Basically, the poster's point is that while it is not sufficient to make a barb overpowered by itself, it is a fairly potent barb skill which any player who not hesitate to take at the 1st opportunity.
Wait, now you're saying something different.
First you say death proof is overpowered in HC. Then you say the problem is that it's a must-have skill.
While I agree must-have skills should go away, two different points are made here as if they're one and the same.
Death proof will not be overpowered in hc, since it's essentially the same as adding 30% extra life (and also you not being able to replenish it with potions and the like).
I don't think it sounds good enough to be a must-have skill, but maybe I'm wrong. Anyway. the thread starter complained about it being overpowered, not it being a must-have skill. Different things
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