View Full Version : Wizard Summoning
Vaughann722
19-10-2008, 08:12
Just a quick point about Wizard abilities...
First: have I missed something here? In the trailer I've seen nothing about Wizard summoning...
In most games, the 'wizard' or 'magic user' character is weaker in health and melee...
In playing Titan Quest, for instance, summoning an elemental was very important... What I mean by this is that it was necessary to distract enemies - and provide the wizard character the space and time to launch magical attacks...
For the same reason I think Blizzard should provide for the Wizard character a summoning capacity...
This is especially important in solo games - where more melee-focused characters could shield the Wizard...
Do other readers here have an opinion? Hope Blizzard is watching...
Frostraven
19-10-2008, 08:52
They have... Hydra-- which MAY be something else than three heads popping out of the ground, and mirror images, which MAY be more than 4 when maxed.
Basicly: Wizards have the Amazon skill Decoy.
Brother Laz
19-10-2008, 13:38
So sorry you can't just summon an invulkyrie and hide behind it and do nothing...
Gigashadow
19-10-2008, 19:18
I think wizards summoning minions is pretty redundant. You don't NEED a minion to protect you...
Nox wizard can't summon. And he's not someone you'd call weak. His weakness is compensated by empowering spells such as Force Field or Invisibility or what not... besides, why does he need protection when he can kill you with 1-2 spells?
And a DnD Wizard/Sorcerer has a wide range of stuff like mage armor and stoneskin that make DnD wizard EXTREMELY annoying to kill. I spent ages killing a wizard in NWN with my fighter with halberd because he had stoneskin and partial invisibility and I wasn't able to kill him until he ran out of all those spells he memorized. In addition to that, he kept blinding me and casting all sorts of other stuff that I nearly died while standing right in front of his face.
Personally, any casting class would overpower any non-magic class automatically in a real-world situation...
Doctor is your summoning.
Wizard is walking destruction incarnate, we don't need no stinkin' meatshields.
Sylvanite
19-10-2008, 21:32
Doctor is your summoning.
Wizard is walking destruction incarnate, we don't need no stinkin' meatshields.
+1
and I think you cant generalize about this version of a Wizard....with the right gear and skill choices she may actually turn out to be quite a tank.
melianor
19-10-2008, 21:59
The Sorceress in Diablo 2 did not need a shield to hide behind. Yes, most sorceress builds do use a mercenary as a kind of shield or place to direct monsters to cast her spells, but she can be just as capable on her own.
When not using a mercernary in D2, the sorceress relied on her skill to teleport keep monster groups in check by placing herself appropiately which made gameplay fastpaced and active.
Apart from Hydra, both in D2 and D3, i do not think that a mage caster class is in need of a summoning spell.
Even through the wizard backdoor, the Necromancer will not return as a playing class. ;)
Sein Schatten
20-10-2008, 15:34
And a DnD Wizard/Sorcerer has a wide range of stuff like mage armor and stoneskin that make DnD wizard EXTREMELY annoying to kill. I spent ages killing a wizard in NWN with my fighter with halberd because he had stoneskin and partial invisibility and I wasn't able to kill him until he ran out of all those spells he memorized. In addition to that, he kept blinding me and casting all sorts of other stuff that I nearly died while standing right in front of his face.
Personally, any casting class would overpower any non-magic class automatically in a real-world situation...
The second paragraph made me lol. Really... too funny. :D
For the first, in NWN they are tame. Try a wizard/sorc in BG2. They are even more annoying. I still remember the 4 ADHW I get thrown in the face, simultanious from 2 Liches with their Chain Contingency. :D
In D3, it will be more balanced. And it seems that all classes are balanced around the fact you don't have a meatshield like a merc? So it evens out.
melianor
20-10-2008, 21:10
It has been mentioned that there will be mercenaries available in Diablo III. How those will interact with your character or complete it is not known.
Frostraven
20-10-2008, 21:47
The second paragraph made me lol. Really... too funny. :D
For the first, in NWN they are tame. Try a wizard/sorc in BG2. They are even more annoying. I still remember the 4 ADHW I get thrown in the face, simultanious from 2 Liches with their Chain Contingency. :D
In D3, it will be more balanced. And it seems that all classes are balanced around the fact you don't have a meatshield like a merc? So it evens out.
Heading wildly off topic now... but...
I really loved AD&D wizards' ability to completely wreck an entire party -- over a long period of time.
In NWN -- they were completely and utterly vulnerable to direct attacks.
If you dare mention stoneskin to defend NWN -- I will mention Force Cage; The wizard creates a cage 20 foot long and wide and high, either trapping the enemy with no save, or protecting those inside the cage, either way protecting the caster from those on the other side.
It was unbreakable and lasted for more minutes than any sane balance monkey would allow.
If you mention confusion, I'll mention time stop: The wizard freaking stops the time and does whatever he wants for 6 to 15 seconds!
If you mention premonition, I'll mention Ironguard: No metal can harm the wizard.
NWN raped the mages twice over and left them cold out in the rain tied to the railway tracks hoping to get rescued by their longsword-wielding cleric friends -- compared to real D&D mages -- who'd eat two black dragons for breakfast before going to slay Demogorgon (again) with the cleric in his party to cast cure minor wounds (and because the cleric-player is a good friend) in case all hell should break loose (literally AND figuratively, and with pun intended) and the wizard get a scratch from the encounter.
Which leads back on topic:
Seeing DIII wizards makes me hope that I'll be able to play a magic user that CAN say "If you say ONE MORE WORD, I'LL TEAR YOU TO SHREDS" -- and actually mean by his own magic -- and not by the swords in the hands of the 5 swordmen hiding behind the door.
melianor
21-10-2008, 07:26
Seeing DIII wizards makes me hope that I'll be able to play a magic user that CAN say "If you say ONE MORE WORD, I'LL TEAR YOU TO SHREDS" -- and actually mean by his own magic -- and not by the swords in the hands of the 5 swordmen hiding behind the door.
Just from the gameplay experience we have been watching this sounds quite reasonable. All we have seen now are lower level skills, not supported by hig ranking passive skills. Once the wizard is in the level 90s everything will explode left and right :nod:
Sein Schatten
26-10-2008, 18:39
Which leads back on topic:
Seeing DIII wizards makes me hope that I'll be able to play a magic user that CAN say "If you say ONE MORE WORD, I'LL TEAR YOU TO SHREDS" -- and actually mean by his own magic -- and not by the swords in the hands of the 5 swordmen hiding behind the door.
Well, you can't really do that. Because all classes should be equal in the grand scheme. Having a class who does one action and the whole screen get atomized and a class who can kill one monster in a minute is unbalanced and not fun. ;)
Pffft. Stupid pointy stick using types, always hoping to compete with those who alter laws of the universe and shatter reality at whim.
Frostraven
26-10-2008, 22:30
Yep.
Show me ONE religion with more than 100 worshippers where their god created the world with..:
a) A sword and shield
b) A huge axe
c) A pointy stick and four fish and a cow *
Show me ONE legend where a city was flying; or a world got crushed by the help of:
a) A shortsword and buckler
b) A throwing axe *
c) A shiny piece of armor
Show me ONE adventurer in "serious" fantasy who killed an unwilling god, in all its glory at full strength without magic beeing used against him to aid the adventurer, using:
a) A non-magical dagger and a tower shield
b) A non-magical bow and a quivver of non-magical iron arrows
c) A non-magical fist *
Show me ONE:
a) Non-magical sword which can create a secret pocket in reality where up to fifty people are served for four hours in a feast with magical servants and food and are subject to the effect of a full week's rest and get a morale bonus for the next 24 hours, while only fifteen minutes pass in the real world.
b) One non-magical dagger that can slaughter a city in 0.001 seconds
c) One talking mace where the talking guy's soul got trapped in the mace because he was hit so freaking hard in melee. *
Right.
Magic wins.
Again.
* I added these options to give you a chance.
Wizards have the teleport skill. Shouldnt be too hard to stay away from melee'ers
Also, I havent read the skill trees but the d2 sorc had energy shield which made it a lot harder to kill. So maybe blizzard will add something like that to maker her tank more.
nicro tower
27-10-2008, 01:32
Yep.
Show me ONE adventurer in "serious" fantasy who killed an unwilling god, in all its glory at full strength without magic beeing used against him to aid the adventurer, using:
a) A non-magical dagger and a tower shield
b) A non-magical bow and a quivver of non-magical iron arrows
c) A non-magical fist *
Show me ONE:
a) Non-magical sword which can create a secret pocket in reality where up to fifty people are served for four hours in a feast with magical servants and food and are subject to the effect of a full week's rest and get a morale bonus for the next 24 hours, while only fifteen minutes pass in the real world.
b) One non-magical dagger that can slaughter a city in 0.001 seconds
c) One talking mace where the talking guy's soul got trapped in the mace because he was hit so freaking hard in melee. *
Right.
Magic wins.
Again.
* I added these options to give you a chance.
D2 Assassin, D&D Psionics. Techincally psionics and assassin mind skills aren't magic, and psionics rivals magic in power. Besides with the Spellplague, wizards are like half-dead.
Oh and Baldurs gate OT: Time stop>Energy Blades>Spell trigger with 2x greater curse and horrid wilting>Wish Rest>Rinse and repeat
Walking engine of destruction right there.
Oh and we had Ironguard in Baldurs gate?
GoldenBird
27-10-2008, 02:39
In playing Titan Quest, for instance, summoning an elemental was very important... What I mean by this is that it was necessary to distract enemies - and provide the wizard character the space and time to launch magical attacks...
This isn't Titan Quest. This is Diablo. Diablo's always been a great, unique game, and I don't suggest giving the developers ideas of making it a standard fantasy game. We're having enough problems driving them away from the horrid WoW graphics (which are shared by just about every MMORPG or RPG, except some of them are more lego-like).
Hah, with summoning the wizard would be the mix of all classes, she would only need leap and shape-shifting xD.
As it seems now, the wizard is supposed to be a lonely mage, that's one of the personality aspects which can be seen on the lore, she or he is supposed to be a master of magic by himself or herself, and does not need help. With summons the whole character personality would be broken.
melianor
27-10-2008, 11:25
Hah, with summoning the wizard would be the mix of all classes, she would only need leap and shape-shifting xD.
As it seems now, the wizard is supposed to be a lonely mage, that's one of the personality aspects which can be seen on the lore, she or he is supposed to be a master of magic by himself or herself, and does not need help. With summons the whole character personality would be broken.
*cheer*clap* !
Sein Schatten
27-10-2008, 18:18
Right.
Magic wins.
Again.
I would like to know what source you have that states God used Magic to create the world. I couldn't find anything in Genesis.
Gigashadow
27-10-2008, 19:32
OK, God created the world with machines of progress, topic closed.
There is a magic summoner class already, the Witch Doctor.
Apocalypse
06-11-2008, 17:38
There is a magic summoner class already, the Witch Doctor.
really need to see the rest of his tree before i label him a summoner. i suspect he will get more/different summons but until we see more who knows how he will play
Nothing dumbs down gameplay on a fragile offensive caster like a summonable tank, probably the most boring form of crowd control ever conceived of. I'm hoping D3 keeps the uninteresting fire-and-forget skills to a minimum.
Sein Schatten
10-11-2008, 20:14
Nothing dumbs down gameplay on a fragile offensive caster like a summonable tank, probably the most boring form of crowd control ever conceived of. I'm hoping D3 keeps the uninteresting fire-and-forget skills to a minimum.
Your opinion. I like summons as meatshields. ;) Played a duo summoner in Titan Quest. :P
Nothing dumbs down gameplay on a fragile offensive caster like a summonable tank, probably the most boring form of crowd control ever conceived of. I'm hoping D3 keeps the uninteresting fire-and-forget skills to a minimum.
Who says tanks have to be boring drones? Something as simple a primitive RTS structure of commanding the tank could greatly spice up summoner gameplay. Not that I want Wizards to have any summons, but I could see a secondary interface for a summoning class to increase the complexity of summon use (for people who don't want to bother, there could always be the "mindless drone doing your generic bidding" setting)
Damnatorius
11-11-2008, 22:15
Who says tanks have to be boring drones? Something as simple a primitive RTS structure of commanding the tank could greatly spice up summoner gameplay. Not that I want Wizards to have any summons, but I could see a secondary interface for a summoning class to increase the complexity of summon use (for people who don't want to bother, there could always be the "mindless drone doing your generic bidding" setting)
As long as it isn't similar to Ragnarok's 'Program your own AI' thing, that was so wide open to abuse.
melianor
12-11-2008, 07:51
Something easy like, mark minions with mouse, point at which monster to attack, finished. Nothing fancy needed and would improve gameplay in areas where you want to focus on bosses and forget about the minions.
I personally think the Mirror Images rock for summoning, and plan to build my eventual character around this (Granted they deal damage, of course)
In Diablo 1, you had the Golemn Spell, which was VERY Potent, even at Lvl 1
In Diablo 2, you had Act 2 Defense Hirelings, which made enemies stand still
In Diablo 3, you have...
:)
In diablo 3, you have mirror image and slow time. Though not a "complete" replacement, those spells can give you the time to cast enough spells to get rid of your enemies.
hireling are still in....soooo yeah and "pure caster" type have always been higher dmg and lower defence then every other class....i doubt that will change if they want to have diversity in their class...the really only thing that bothers me with the wiz is that ALOTS of spell are taken from DnD....wish they would have made new one that arent exact copy of DnD...il still play my "MALE WOOHOO!!!" wizard non-stop
the wiz have alots of good diverse defensive skill now,unlike that damn frozen,chilling and shiver armor...so i wouldnt worry about surviving....
we really need the necro comeback though...i love caster...every one of them but summoner necro was seriously awesome to play and alots different then everything weve seen in Diablo like....people saying its just summon and then watch dont know anything about necro in hell....going in hell as a summoner necro as your first new ladder char is just awesome and soooooo much tactic is involved
DemolitionSquid
19-02-2009, 07:33
we really need the necro comeback though...i love caster...every one of them but summoner necro was seriously awesome to play and alots different then everything weve seen in Diablo like....people saying its just summon and then watch dont know anything about necro in hell....going in hell as a summoner necro as your first new ladder char is just awesome and soooooo much tactic is involved
No. NO. NO. NO.
Let me introduce you to the WITCH DOCTOR. He has SUMMONS too!
So seriously, everyone shut up, and let the Necro die like he wants to.
KillaMike
20-02-2009, 15:15
No. NO. NO. NO.
Let me introduce you to the WITCH DOCTOR. He has SUMMONS too!
So seriously, everyone shut up, and let the Necro die like he wants to.
Good point.
Bravo.
LET SOSO BE WIZZ AND KILL EVERYTHING IN HIS/HER OWN WITHOUT STUPID SHIELDS.
btw, if you play without frozen armour, games starts to be so much more interesting, tele / cast, or do: cast / cast /die is much better then get hit 13 billion times and then say, ouch, i need to repare: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVNPjiXsS8o&feature=rec-HM-fresh+div
find familiar!
edit: Also about slowtime... is it just me or is this just "slow missles" and nothing like the awesomness of bg timestop.
Mizantrop
05-04-2009, 08:39
Also about slowtime... is it just me or is this just "slow missles" and nothing like the awesomness of bg timestop.
D2 sorceress had it. It's called "spamMeteorcrushgame".
DemolitionSquid
05-04-2009, 21:19
Just so we get back on topic, and so its perfectly clear, the Diablo 3 Wizard DOES have limited summoning ability through the Mirror Image and Hydra skills of its aptly named Conjuring skill tree. There are other possibilities for pseudo-summoning as well, such as Teleport inserted with a Multistrike (now Hydra) rune creating duplicates.
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