View Full Version : Killing Spree Combos
Q: Is there any caps on the Killing Spree combo?
A: Yes, there is a maximum combination combo. It’s related to your level but I don’t think anyone can actually get it. It has a theoretical limit, but you are not likely to reach it.
What is this exactly and how come I haven't heard anything about it? :scratchchin:
I am 90% sure it is extra XP for killing more thinks faster in a row.
I am 90% sure it is extra XP for killing more thinks faster in a row.
yeah this is basically it. i haven't read anything officially about it yet... but at blizzcon i tried to proc as many "killing sprees" as i could. i'm not sure how long the timer is to count a kill toward the spree... but i think the highest i got was 8 or 9. i don't believe party kills added to the spree... i think you actually need to get the killing blow for it to count.
my guess as far as why the cap most likely will never be hit is just the number of mobs in any given battle. you'll never get a spree of more than 30 or 40 just because there won't be that many mobs for you to kill in time (to keep the spree going).
Hellspawn
17-10-2008, 20:19
wow interesting, I wonder how much faster your exp goes up...
korialstraz
17-10-2008, 20:23
Well this sure must be balanced right so it won't discourage team play again. Either that or if you alone trigger the spree, the exp increase will still effect the entire party.
Ofc it may not be enough of a bonus to be worth playing alone for, unlike the looting spree and instant hostile in D2.
Apocalypse
17-10-2008, 20:36
this confuses me as it seems to be another counter to co-op unless of course all kills by the team count towards the spree. being said i do not like this either way
Apocalypse
17-10-2008, 20:59
seems too arcadish to me, the health and mana globes are one thing but adding in combos and other such things make me feel like i just picked up the latest console action game. i wanna play diablo not fable. probably just me though, most people will jump at extra xp
Gigashadow
17-10-2008, 21:07
I don't like this feature... I am a slow going player, I like to clear out areas and open every chest and collect most of the items. People are free to go on a killing spree, but I don't want to be forced into it. Killing sprees would cause them to lower overall experience gain, and people not into killing sprees would get less experience. I guess this is pretty normal. They always favor the powerleveling "hardcore" gamers...
Killing sprees would cause them to lower overall experience gain, and people not into killing sprees would get less experience.
What makes you say that? It looks like a bonus akin to items that boost XP gain or shrines more than a standard to be forced on everyone...
Apocalypse
17-10-2008, 21:28
What makes you say that? It looks like a bonus akin to items that boost XP gain or shrines more than a standard to be forced on everyone...
Question I have is, will they balance the game in some way for all the bonus xp that is going to be handed out? Also I agree, I am the slower player, I like to clear everything and open them chests that probably have nothing good in them lol
Gigashadow
17-10-2008, 21:30
What makes you say that? It looks like a bonus akin to items that boost XP gain or shrines more than a standard to be forced on everyone...Killing sprees, from the looks of it, are something you can do virtually non-stop as long as you go fast enough in killing enemies wave after wave. It could really turn into a craze where you just keep going and going to get as many killing sprees as possible to level faster than the person next to you. This depends on the XP given by the sprees, obviously. But it will basically mean you may end up leveling 10x faster than a slow-goer... and, fast players already level faster than people who clear every area.
Experience shrines were random, and didn't really last long or add too much XP. XP items do not require quicker play, they are like MF items...
To Apocalypse
Maybe we should form a DIII party someday.
guys, i gotta say hold out until somebody has a more definitive answer. i didn't have any time to actually test how the killing sprees worked extremely carefully.
a. it could proc off of party kills (thus making partying better, as your team will get more kills in random succession, thereby setting off more sprees).
b. the timer may be longer than i thought. at first i thought it was an xp bonus for staying alive without dying (part of the whole "making death more meaningful" dilemna)... but it didn't seem that way as the timer reset the spree.
i'm not sure though. did anybody else who got blizzcon demo time pay more attention to the sprees?
TopHatCat64
17-10-2008, 21:36
How exactly are Killing Sprees displayed on the screen? Is it text? graphics? a cheesy voice saying it?
EDIT: Good to know, thanks poonagi
If you play slowly, and don't care about competition or how other people play, and will probably end up playing with like-minded people; why would you care how fast the speed junkies gain their XP points?
Players who want to level up fast already know how to level up thousand times faster than those who play the game normally. Look at Diablo 2, they eventually figured out a method to reach level 90 in one day.
How exactly are Killing Sprees displayed on the screen? Is it text? graphics? a cheesy voice saying it?
it was a pop up over your character. i don't remember the exact wording but it would pop up and say:
7 KILLS!
2300 EXP
not exactly, but something to that effect.
Hellspawn
17-10-2008, 21:44
Thinking about a little more, seems like this may be a way to prevent skipping mobs to get to the boss for xp runs! Perhaps you are gonna get more exp doing killing sprees on mobs on the way to the boss than if you killed the boss.
Thinking about a little more, seems like this may be a way to prevent skipping mobs to get to the boss for xp runs! Perhaps you are gonna get more exp doing killing sprees on mobs on the way to the boss than if you killed the boss.
my guess is that it's 3 fold:
a) a way to increase xp for mobs
b) a way to increase the pace of the game, making people want to push the action for these sprees
c) a way to reward NOT dying, aka a way to penalize deaths
Interesting, could be fun, could be annoying. I don't like to be pressured not to take my time picking items off the floor. I can see it actually pace at times when it makes it worthwhile to herd everything before starting killing. Assuming it's a short term thing.
FOUND SOME FOOTAGE HERE!
i went in search of some blizzcon footage to find the killing sprees... found one here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aE5-OXdz1Q
at 0:54 you can see it pop up in the bottom right as "39 Kills, new record, 300XP Bonus"
from the looks of it, i was wrong on a couple of points.
-it pops up in the bottom corner, NOT over your character.
-it tracks kills by the party i think, as the wizard was not alone and it didn't look like she got 39 killing blows by herself.
-i'm not sure why it pops up the info at that point. either her spree ended at 39 (though i don't see any reason why it should have ended right there), or it popped up because she got a new record (and therefore the sprees are tracked invisibly most of the time).
hmmmmmmmmm interesting! makes me wish i paid even more attention to this stuff at blizzcon... but i was too busy just enjoying playing D3 with my friends! :)
Gigashadow
18-10-2008, 00:37
why would you care how fast the speed junkies gain their XP points?Because leveling is a part of the game, and if it gets extremely slow, and with killing sprees it may, it's ruined for the slow people. This is how I see this:
Me > Normal leveling speed
Other guys > Fast leveling speed
This is fine... but
Me > Slow leveling speed
Other guys > Normal leveling speed
That's not fine.
Players who want to level up fast already know how to level up thousand times faster than those who play the game normally. Look at Diablo 2, they eventually figured out a method to reach level 90 in one day.No, they don't. Powerlevels do know a lot to level faster, but the extremity noticed in Diablo II is due to the mistakes made in that game: rushing, bugs. If that's removed leveling will slow down considerable. In any case, I don't need to level like crazy. I just want to make sure that my leveling speed is fun... not turtle, and to make it fun I have to kill-spree.
Hellspawn
18-10-2008, 01:39
^People who want to play the game faster and kill faster will always level faster than people who want to take their time and explore every little thing. And you can still take all the time you want, the only time you are gonna be getting the killing spree bonus is when you are mobbed by mobs anyway, so if you don't kill them fast you will probably die lol.
I think it's a great idea, now I have a reason to actually play through the game instead of skipping all the mobs to get to the boss on xp runs.
Powerlevels do know a lot to level faster, but the extremity noticed in Diablo II is due to the mistakes made in that game: rushing, bugs. If that's removed leveling will slow down considerable
Rushing will never removed, unless they literally force high level characters to not party with lower levels or force high level XP kills to not give anything to lower level characters in the party.
The thing about rushing is not that you get to hell baal in like 40 minutes. The thing about rushing is simply about placing a character in optimal XP gaining spots. If anything, any changes Blizzard will make to remove bugs and content skipping will be counter-acted by players simply making themselves an "XP item set."
I honestly will not be surprised that we will have an astronomically fast power level route ready in a couple of weeks after D3's release.
Me > Slow leveling speed
And if what you call slow is "normal?" I literally don't see how Blizzard, or any other game developer, consider killing monsters without any XP boosters to be anything other than baseline.
Apocalypse
18-10-2008, 03:09
i guess it could be ok but i will have to see it first, the initial thought that popped into my head was memories of UT with MEGA KILL, ULTRA KILL and so on lol. i do like how it keeps stats, i hope it keeps a ton of stats. i wanna know how many of each mob my char has killed through out his life time. i would like to know the record amount of kills i had in between deaths. i wanna know all sorts of useless info like that, i just dig that stuff.
to giga, i am down with a group. i played us east in d2, no clue how they are gonna do d3 so that might not matter but i am always looking for players to group with who wont run off constantly like they have ADD
stillman
18-10-2008, 05:21
Thinking about a little more, seems like this may be a way to prevent skipping mobs to get to the boss for xp runs! Perhaps you are gonna get more exp doing killing sprees on mobs on the way to the boss than if you killed the boss.
I suggested this concept a while ago as some means to stop pitiful boring boss runs, and man, people complained about it. They want their precious, precious, boss runs.
I think it's a great idea: killing mobs and cleaning out areas for optimal exp instead of being persuaded to skip 99% or the level and focus on bosses only.
"Rushing will never removed, unless they literally force high level characters to not party with lower levels or force high level XP kills to not give anything to lower level characters in the party." by konfeta.
I suggested this a while back too. I don't see why Blizzard would still alow a lev 90 chr to do all the work for a game of low levelers. If they don't correct the rushing thing I'll be quite disappointed.
Apocalypse
18-10-2008, 13:10
no reason it cant be fixed, simple as, if you are 10 levels above me i get zero xp from your kills, of course 10 levels is fine for the first 60 levels or so but a level 80 and 90 can probably group together so maybe 10 levels is too much? maybe it could change from 10 to 5 at a certain point?
either way, i am sure with the big brains at bliz it can be fixed
Maybe these Killing Spree's are simply tied to clusters of monsters, that way you get a small reward for killing all of those 37 skeletons on screen in one big swoop while it doesn't encourage running off right after the fight like a rabid hamster without even gathering the loot etc.
Gigashadow
18-10-2008, 17:34
And if what you call slow is "normal?" I literally don't see how Blizzard, or any other game developer, consider killing monsters without any XP boosters to be anything other than baseline.Well, an example I can use is MF.
Diablo I has a higher base rate of item collection that DII does. I don't think there's any MF in DI, and in DI, I never felt like I am lacking good items or items don't drop or anything.
In DII, which I played for a very long time without any MF at all, I always felt that I got crap and crap and crap all the time. There was hardly ever anything good, and I didn't even know rare items existed until I played about 3 characters up to Hell or something, they just never dropped on me.
Now I use MF in DII, and the drop rate got much more bearable, I actually get items that I can use every now and then (whereas before, some items I found in ACT1 could be still effective in ACTIII, that's just ridiculous). I don't really mind MF that much, but I still don't like this. Why are casual players punished by crappy items? They should get the same drop rates they got in DI, and the people who go around MFing can get even better items, fine. But don't lower our item gain because you gave other people options to level normally...Rushing will never removedRushing can be removed by restricting XP gain to level. E.g., if you are totally not where you are supposed to be, you don't gain much XP. A 20 level necro in Act 4 is ridiculous.
The thing about rushing is simply about placing a character in optimal XP gaining spots.And that requires balacing of XP gaining spots... e.g., make baal runs not more viable than other areas, etc... in any case, that's running, not rushing. Rushing is getting where you're not supposed to be too fast.
players simply making themselves an "XP item set."Sure. As long as my XP gain is not lowered because someone put an XP item set into the game, OK?
Brother Laz
18-10-2008, 18:32
Turbolevelling is fine as long as it requires more skill, which this system certainly encourages.
It reminds me of how you could skip half of the game in D1 if you got lucky with level layouts, but you needed to be really good to survive. If not, go back to the hardest level you can still sort of complete and farm exp. It rewarded skill with faster levelling.
This is good, because if there is no way to speed up levelling at all, then making new characters becomes very boring. Guess why no one wants to reroll in WoW.
Now I use MF in DII, and the drop rate got much more bearable, I actually get items that I can use every now and then (whereas before, some items I found in ACT1 could be still effective in ACTIII, that's just ridiculous). I don't really mind MF that much, but I still don't like this. Why are casual players punished by crappy items? They should get the same drop rates they got in DI, and the people who go around MFing can get even better items, fine. But don't lower our item gain because you gave other people options to level normally...
Fair enough. The thing is, if this caters to the casual players too much, item hunting in this game gets killed. For a loot based game, handing out free godly items like candy is ensuring its failure before it is even released. Point is, casual gamers aren't getting punished by crappy items. All the "badass" items were suppose to be ludicrously rare and require special effort to acquire, whenever through MF gear or trading.
I am not saying Diablo 2 did it right. But having items equivalent to Arachnid's Mesh being simply guaranteed to casual players for just playing and not taking any risk or effort is just as wrong.
Same thing with XP - there is a baseline on how long it will take for a character to achieve max level. And then there are rewards (items, shrines, intelligent play, killing combos, etc.) that, well, reward players with being able to reach higher level faster. I see nothing wrong with that. However, if the baseline to get to the highest level is fast enough for anyone to get it without expending effort (via XP rewards) or noticeable time investment (via slow play), then what is the point of all the XP rewards?
Once again, I am not saying Diablo 2 did it right - it screwed up on both ends, as reaching max level is basically unreasonable (1000+ baal run equivilents for a level up... W-T-F?) and XP runs allowing reaching end game in basically 1 dedicated day. But making leveling too easy overall isn't quite fair to those who do beyond the call of duty to achieve.
Sure. As long as my XP gain is not lowered because someone put an XP item set into the game, OK?
You are becoming paranoid. Your XP gain will ALWAYS be relatively lowered compared to those who gain it faster, even if Blizzard never changes the baseline to get to max level and the baseline XP rewards for killing monsters. By adding more methods to gain XP faster, Blizzard is essentially "slowing" casual play in relativistic sense. Might as well as accept these new XP boosters as a fact of life and move on.
Your point would make sense if Blizzard flat-out stated leveling was balanced around the expectation that a player uses the XP boosters, so anyone who doesn't will be behind the curve. But expecting that is like expecting a teacher to lower your grade on a test for not answering extra credit questions.
Gigashadow
18-10-2008, 20:32
Fair enough. The thing is, if this caters to the casual players too much, item hunting in this game gets killed.I don't remember such issues with DI. Everyone was on the same page. That's what I liked about it.
For a loot based game, handing out free godly items like candy is ensuring its failure before it is even released.So DI is a failure? Or maybe you are overreacting a bit? For me, drop rates become bearable at about +100% MF... make that baseline, I'd be happy. But don't make baseline lower than it was in a previous game.
Point is, casual gamers aren't getting punished by crappy items.Yes, they are. They only get crappy items. I used an ACT I item through ACT III. That's crappy drop rates, very crappy drop rates. This did not happen in DI.
All the "badass" items were suppose to be ludicrously rare and require special effort to acquire, whenever through MF gear or trading.Stop jumping, please. Items are not divided into crappy and godly. There is at least "mediocre" in between. A player without MF doesn't get that mediocre. He gets crappy. That's the problem here.
But having items equivalent to Arachnid's Mesh being simply guaranteed to casual players for just playing and not taking any risk or effort is just as wrong.I don't know what Arachnid's Mesh is so that comment doesn't mean anything to me. And please don't turn around my words just because you can't read. I didn't say increase drop rates to godly items. I said give casual players enough drop rate to make the game playable and fun, not like there is one edible item per difficulty level. I could go to ACT V with extremely crappy items and it gets much more hardcore than you guys playing with awesome items that you mfed doing 300 runs. I don't see why should I be punished for playing the goddamn game and killing monsters that are my level.
However, if the baseline to get to the highest level is fast enough for anyone to get it without expending effort (via XP rewards) or noticeable time investment (via slow play), then what is the point of all the XP rewards?There is never such a thing as "fast enough". But there is such a thing as "too slow".
You are becoming paranoid. Your XP gain will ALWAYS be relatively lowered compared to those who gain it faster, even if Blizzard never changes the baseline to get to max level and the baseline XP rewards for killing monsters.I don't see anything paranoid if that's what DII did.
If we take DI case. There are no advantages or disadvantages. Everyone levels the same way. That same way is specifically calculated to make sure it's not too boring or too fast or too easy.
If we take any +exp +mf or whatever items, it means some players get it faster. Perhaps they get it too fast. And if they get it too fast, the baseline has to be lower. So, now, instead of getting it too fast, the powerlevel players get it at normal speed, while other players get it too slow because nobody cares about them. Get it?
If you remember DI and it's drop rates compared to DII and its droprates at baseline you'd understand. DI didn't shower you with items. But it at least gave you decent items here and there, so that each major area you got something better. I think that's a fine baseline which could be extended with a bit of MF to a better rate, but I just don't want casual players to get lowered. I don't see anything casual with killing Diablo with sucky items, while you non-casual runners and rushers kill him with godly items where he can't even deal any damage to you. It's all relative.
DII was messed up by this. It favored players who had enough patience to rerun the same area over players who were finding new ways to kill a boss that was very hard for them to kill since they had crappy items since drop rates were so ridiculously bad.
I don't remember such issues with DI. Everyone was on the same page. That's what I liked about it.
Diablo 1's itemization also relied around you being able to buy a Falchion of Quickness and killing Diablo with it while he spent most of his time in hit recovery. Since Diablo 2, typically the best items are dropped, not sold - which means Diablo 1's metric for what counts as "everyone is on the same page" isn't valid there.
Next, Diablo 1 isn't exactly a good metric for a modern game. Nostalgia alone does not compensate for a game's flaws. I enjoyed Diablo 1 back when I played it, I occasionally start it up now and then, but I do not, ever, want a repeat of many of that game's features/conditions in a new release.
So DI is a failure? Or maybe you are overreacting a bit? For me, drop rates become bearable at about +100% MF... make that baseline, I'd be happy. But don't make baseline lower than it was in a previous game.
Stop jumping, please. Items are not divided into crappy and godly. There is at least "mediocre" in between. A player without MF doesn't get that mediocre. He gets crappy. That's the problem here.
I've never had problems finding those mediocre items without MF, to be honest. I don't see how D3's drop rate for those needs to be increased.
I don't know what Arachnid's Mesh is so that comment doesn't mean anything to me. And please don't turn around my words just because you can't read. I didn't say increase drop rates to godly items. I said give casual players enough drop rate to make the game playable and fun, not like there is one edible item per difficulty level. I could go to ACT V with extremely crappy items and it gets much more hardcore than you guys playing with awesome items that you mfed doing 300 runs. I don't see why should I be punished for playing the goddamn game and killing monsters that are my level.
O.K., here is the problem. You are unlucky. All the mediocre items you speak off drop just fine without MFing. No player in D2 truly needed to twink to casually play through the whole game with most builds available.
Nothing is punishing you in Diablo 2 for playing the game normally. I've had a variety of high level class-specific sets, high level mediocre weapons drop on characters that didn't have a point of MF on them by simply playing through the game.
The reason I took your words that way is because I assumed that you were aware which items count at what power level. The items you speak off drop with enough regularity for normal play to be accessible to non-mf players, and drop so much in actual MF runs that people regularly make "join get free" games and throw them out like trash (if they bother picking them up in the first place).
There is never such a thing as "fast enough". But there is such a thing as "too slow".
Again, if the game's leveling is balanced with "xp you get from normal monster kills" as being base, you have nothing to worry about - you will reach end game in a reasonable amount of time. I see no indication why it would be any other way.
I don't see anything paranoid if that's what DII did.
So, now, instead of getting it too fast, the powerlevel players get it at normal speed, while other players get it too slow because nobody cares about them. Get it?
Because Blizzard is totally making D3 to be a repeat of D2, amirite? And D2 totally cursed players with using blues/yellows if they didn't do regular MF runs?
I get it, and said like 20 times that there is no basis for this. This is what I mean by paranoia, you are assuming that Blizzard will make use of combo kills and XP gear and the like to be required to stay on par. I don't see why this would be the case.
Tell me, what do you expect, as a player, out of Diablo 3?
To be able to just start the game, and walk through every area at your own pace, and not be gimped at any point of the game by the virtue of having just the right amount of levels and just the right amount of proper items?
Admirable desire for normal, but if nightmare/hell modes are *that* easy, well, what's the point of them?
This is an item hunting game, this is a leveling game. Nightmare/Hell modes should be challenging, they should require you to be good at your class and character building and/or to fortify your character via leveling up or item hunting.
That means that after a certain point, i.e. finishing the game's normal mode, normal, casual play implies doing some item and XP runs.
Apocalypse
19-10-2008, 01:16
about the items, as long as i am not required to have the best of the best items to win hell mode then i will be cool
TheReadMenace
19-10-2008, 07:00
First off, I like this idea of bigger combo = more XP. And I'm sure it won't be as crazy as 10x more than normal; getting a 1000% boost is ludicrous. I figure it'll be noticable, but nothing significant. I'd bet that /p8 in single player of D2 gives more than this bonus will in D3. I'm the type that like to loot chests and corpses, too, but it'll just change my playstyle a bit to make sure I've cleared out all the nearby monsters before I backtrack a bit for shiny loot.
As for this whole MF debate rolling on here, there's a fundamental question that begs to be asked, Gigashadow. Back when you didn't run around with MF and used an ActI weapon through AIII, were you still having fun? My guess is that maybe you struggled a bit, but it's not like the game becomes impossibly difficult with less than stellar gear.
Furthermore, were you running without MF gear because you didn't know how "important" it is (in some people's eyes, anyway), or because you refused to? For whatever reason, well... sorry to say it, but I don't feel sympathetic. Take an example from one of the most well known games of all time, Super Mario Bros. Casual gamers with little to no knowledge of the game may not know about the warp zone here or the mushroom there or this hidden 1-up in level blah blah blah, but that doesn't mean they can't still have fun. However, the people who knew more about the game could use their expertise and make the game exponentially easier. It's the same for the Diablo series. Those who know more about the games can use that information to their advantage and have a completely different gaming experience. It's my opinion that casual gamers don't always need, nor do they deserve, figurative signposts that tell them the same things a more dedicated gamer would.
Brother Laz
19-10-2008, 11:16
I love how 'challenge' gets equated with 'doing boss/exp runs to get stronger'. Tht's not challenge.
......
It's not about casuals wanting welfare runewords. It's about casuals wanting items that are good enough to complete the game when you just play through it without farming - as in D1 or more to the point, pre-LoD D2.
stillman
19-10-2008, 15:02
Gigashadow,
Some of the things you dislike in d2 are the things that I like. I enjoy how the game drops mostly useless junk and how you end up using your act 1 rings up untill act 3-4. This creates a challenge.
When you realize you aren't getting good enough stuff for your chr, you have to do what it takes to get your chr ahead in the world. Like:
-gamble for rares. You have about a 1 in 10 chance of getting a rare for some good res on cheap gloves/boots/belts. It doesn't even take that much gold collecting early in the game.
-Then there's speed killing everything in previousy completed areas; something better than what you're wearing is is bound to drop for you.
-But if you don't like that, then there's all those chipped gems that drop. Hang on to all those that add a bit of ele damage and buy a 3os longbow from charsi and you can use that to get through act 2.
-Then there's the merc who can do some killing for you.
-Then there's the charms that generously drop which add 1-6 psn, 1-5 lit, 3-4 fire or w/e damage. Keep every last one of those if you're playing a fighter/bow user; they really add up! The game drops them just frequently enough to give you a significant edge early on.
-Don't play with others for a bit or you'll get bored from whittling down all the mosnters with X2, X3, X4 life.
-Then I suppose there's the horadric malus quest which you don't even need to use, but it's there to help anyways.
-Then theres act 1 normal andy who likes to drop flawed gems. I hardly call killing her 1-2 extra times mfing when you have 0 mf.
-Then, IIRC, a small amount of mf on 1-2 low mf items that drop really early give you a greater mf advantage than later on to help you start out. But we're not into mf so ignore this one.
-Then there's the cube that lets you cube up your flawed to regular gems for your next bow/fighter weapon.
-And of course, there's those chipped saphires that go great in a 2os cap you buy from charsi for extra mana, and the tir runes (which you almost automatically get) which go great in 3os armor for +6 to mana after each kill.
-Then there's shoping for frw boots for Duriel.
I'm sure there's more; knowing wands, staves and helms with chr skills on them to pick up and sell since they take up only small space anyway, etc. There's all kinds of fun ways to compensate for your low damage and low res from the crappy gear the game drops for us without mf. In fact, it's really really fun when you play with a friend who doesn't know of these simple methods and you are outdoing him and you give him all your stuff when you build your next gemed bow. What fun would a ladder reset be if everyone cruises along happily with their new ladder character and all of their gear from kills is "acceptable" enough to progress?
Gigashadow
19-10-2008, 15:36
-Then theres act 1 normal andy who likes to drop flawed gems. I hardly call killing her 1-2 extra times mfing when you have 0 mf.I had a 4-flawed one-chipped ring mail (gem shrines ftw) and skull cap around stony field once I knew what I was supposed to do, I have 67 Mf right now and I'm nowhere near Andy...
I don't have a problem with doing things. I just have an issue with mechanics forced on me to enjoy the game.
Well, I'll answer this question among others.
As for this whole MF debate rolling on here, there's a fundamental question that begs to be asked, Gigashadow. Back when you didn't run around with MF and used an ActI weapon through AIII, were you still having fun?No. The game was OK at early stages were monsters were still too weak to worry about. Depending on the class, it started to get highly annoying. My Necro's Bone Spear was a total joke by the time I reached Nigthmare. It took ages to kill anything. I had mana issues. I had more fun in ACT I where bone spear wasn't available and all I had is a scepter and amplify damage...
The game is not hard. DII is not a hard game at all. It's BORING. It's BORING to shoot the same monster 300 times with bonespear to kill him. And that's how bad it got by the time I got to Hell. Then I quit because I was bored.
The one time I had fun was with a barb who had no skills and only passives... I don't know how did that happen but he killed everything from Normal to Hell perfectly fine with my socketed 3-perfect-ruby axes, lol.
My guess is that maybe you struggled a bit, but it's not like the game becomes impossibly difficult with less than stellar gear.A game's premise is not to be difficult or easy. It's to be fun. It's not fun when I return from a game where I have a few good items once in a while to a game where good items don't seem to exist. Before MF, it was hard for me to enjoy Diablo II. I kept wondering why the heck people like this failure of a game so much. With MF, it all becomes very clear... it's a whole different experience... getting good items once in a while, actually using an item that's not socketed, wow.
It's not about casuals wanting welfare runewords. It's about casuals wanting items that are good enough to complete the game when you just play through it without farming - as in D1 or more to the point, pre-LoD D2.
It's not about dedicated players wanting the game to require massive farming and xp running to be able to complete the game. It's about having the higher levels of difficulties actually mean something beyond being 2 extra normal modes.
If they are relativistically more difficult to a player entering them at "appropriate" level, it means that the said player needs to either improve how well he plays, get more levels, or get better equipment. That's like the whole basis for this genre - you come across a challenge and figure out a way to overcome it, ideally through combination of all three because getting twinked/powerleveled to the point of those modes no longer being hard kills the point of those playing modes.
If you start automatically providing means to the player to play through those modes without any form of effort from that player's side beyond what he put in Normal mode, then the higher difficulty modes lose their meaning.
Now, I am not saying that grinding is particularly fun. I'd much rather have extra-difficult random quests peppered all over the game that provide refreshing XP/item runs to accommodate that. But what I'd rather not have is having a bag of hand-outs appearing next to me every time I find an area I cannot normally do.
Gigashadow
19-10-2008, 20:55
There are no difficulties in Diablo. There is one big game divided into three parts: Normal, Nightmare, Hell. They are just NAMES. They are not difficulties. Proof that they are not difficulties? You cannot finish a build just by finishing Normal. You cannot play the next one until you finish the previous one. They allow you to use a char trained in some other area. They are not difficulties, do not call them that.
Difficulties is where you choose the game to be Easy, Moderate, and Hard, and you play the game in accordance to game. There is no such choice in Diablo, and please stop pretending there is just because Blizzard put it into your head. They could somewhat be called difficulties in DI because you could choose to play Nightmare from the start of the game.
It's common for games that areas become steadily harder. But, from what I recall, most games require increased skill to overcome challenges. If a person enjoys doing the same thing over and over again, that person lacks intelligence. Otherwise, it's not enjoyable to most people. If it's not enjoyable, kick it out. Require players to be skillful, not dumb. Yes, that's what I am calling you. If you think that re-doing an are 30 times shows skill, I am saying you are just so dumb that your brain doesn't require any stimulation and you are actually able to do that 30 times or 100 times or a million times, while other people get bored and move on to something more intelligent.
Diablo 1 SP wasn't easy at all. It didn't allow you to redo areas like some idiot to collect more items and get more XP so that you could have a handicap to meet the next challenge. You meet a crowd of spitting dogs, and you can't kill them, well, gotta use your skill and brain this time. You can't go back and get better items. You can't reroll to get a better situation. Maybe buy a better sword but that's it. You have to PLAY BETTER. That's what I want to see. And DIII has much more options now.
I don't mind people going back and gaining items or XP, your choice. I do it myself sometimes. But please don't tell me that you are working hard or you are more skillful and hardcore, that's total BS.
There are no difficulties in Diablo. There is one big game divided into three parts: Normal, Nightmare, Hell. They are just NAMES. They are not difficulties. Proof that they are not difficulties? You cannot finish a build just by finishing Normal. You cannot play the next one until you finish the previous one. They allow you to use a char trained in some other area. They are not difficulties, do not call them that.
You finish the game (storyline, content) by finishing normal. Replaying the same content with different numbers attached does not make it "more content." It makes it "same content that has different numbers attached to it."
I won't call them difficulties any more, but don't call them what they are not either. Nightmare/Hell mode are not bonus content designed to continue the game, they are a modification to the old content that allows you to replay it under different circumstances.
It's common for games that areas become steadily harder. But, from what I recall, most games require increased skill to overcome challenges. If a person enjoys doing the same thing over and over again, that person lacks intelligence. Otherwise, it's not enjoyable to most people. If it's not enjoyable, kick it out. Require players to be skillful, not dumb. Yes, that's what I am calling you. If you think that re-doing an are 30 times shows skill, I am saying you are just so dumb that your brain doesn't require any stimulation and you are actually able to do that 30 times or 100 times or a million times, while other people get bored and move on to something more intelligent.
1. You are a hack'n'slash player and are assaulting intelligence. Pot, meet kettle.
2. Didn't you accuse me of not reading your post properly a page or two back? Please...
Now, I am not saying that grinding is particularly fun.
it means that the said player needs to either improve how well he plays, get more levels, or get better equipment
Diablo 1 SP wasn't easy at all. It didn't allow you to redo areas like some idiot to collect more items and get more XP so that you could have a handicap to meet the next challenge. You meet a crowd of spitting dogs, and you can't kill them, well, gotta use your skill and brain this time. You can't go back and get better items. You can't reroll to get a better situation. Maybe buy a better sword but that's it. You have to PLAY BETTER. That's what I want to see. And DIII has much more options now.
Yes, you actually could re-do the area if you didn't like an outcome or wanted to level more. It's called start new game with old character. And Diablo 1 was anything BUT difficult even if you didn't use that method.
I don't mind people going back and gaining items or XP, your choice. I do it myself sometimes. But please don't tell me that you are working hard or you are more skillful and hardcore, that's total BS.
I never said that? Besides, whenever you like it or not, it is a skill. A very shallow skill, which any braindead idiot abuse, but a skill never the less. It's called strategy.
If you encounter an area you cannot overcome or it's simply very difficult to overcome with the resources at your disposal, you can find more and better resources to help you overcome it.
If the game provides access to resources through having to perform a challenging task (i.e. - doing quests that involve performing tasks of slightly less difficulty than the area you are trying to pass in order to gain items or experience, etc.) or having to take a look at the equipment changes you can perform without twinking to optimize your character, than it requires a certain degree of thought or skill.
Having the game just GIVE you the appropriate resources without performing an extra task for it (quest, grinding, shopping, trading, etc.) takes out an important component out of planning in this game.
Provided you don't pass down items from higher level characters or don't just go back to mindlessly farming until you can cruise through the pause-giving area, it is a skill you need to acquire and hone in order to go through the game. Are you disagreeing with me on this point? Or do you want enter every area with guaranteed gear that completely disregards a very vital part of this genre, planning your character's equipment?
TheReadMenace
20-10-2008, 06:49
I appreciate your responses, Giga, and I respect your opinion. Some people aren't entertained the same way as you, and that's perfectly acceptable, right? You might not like to rerun areas for items and XP: meanwhile, I often rerun Eldritch dozens of times to boost my clevel and skills. It really all comes down to play style and what you enjoy to do in-game. I'm just saying, but telling someone that runs Mephisto 30 times for better items they're a brainless sack isn't very tolerant or understanding.
Don't like rerunning? Maybe you should think about doing a HC single-pass untwinked character. Load up on MF early, resists late, and max vitality. It's tough, you're likely bound for some failure, but it puts a little more fun (and challenge, which it seems you've been looking for in D2) into your game.
And I'm just asking: Running through D1 with crappy gear and low levels is fun, but running through D2 under the same circumstances is boring? ...Just trying to understand your POV...
jamesisbest
21-10-2008, 06:19
I think the killing spree combos idea is a hit or miss idea. Really it could work out well if implemented well or be a complete failure if done poorly. Since there is little known about it I can't make a definitive position on the idea yet. What I would agree with is giving an incentive for killing the monster mobs instead of skipping to bosses. The exp should be a noticable boost but not a large enough boost to make it inefficient using certain character builds and player styles. If the timer is lenient and based on mob groups it will be a way to get people to kill the mobs without them changing their style in order to be the fastest killer possible. I think if the game emphasizes the combos too much it will detract from the game. I hope it is more of a little game perk that doesn't boggle down your game strategy. Seeing as Blizzard doesn't want to detract from the action style I think they will probably use this as a minor game feature not a prominent one; or at least I'm hoping so :D.
Apocalypse
21-10-2008, 13:54
something like this will just force better balance, or should force better balance. in d2 my sorc could clear a screen while my necro was still on first mob, never would have got a combo with him
I'm somewhere in the middle. I don't mind doing a dozen boss runs every now and then, but nowhere as many as I've heard people here do. (Hours and hours of Pit runs, dear God.)
The fact is I don't really enjoy doing boss runs. What I do love is finding uniques, the rest is just an annoyance.
The problem with Diablo is that you need to do lots of runs to get decent end-game gear irrespective of your class. The alternative would be to play single-pass untwinked, but that's painfully slow to play. I don't have the time to spare either way!
Let me rephrase that... I'd rather use the free time I have to start up a new character, with a new build, than to waste it in boss run after boss run, or slowly whacking my way through Hell.
mouseman
22-10-2008, 08:43
You're funny.
I like this killing-spree-thing. I'm sure blizzard will think of ways for it not to ruin the game. The world - or the development of this game - doesn't rest on your shoulders.
However, I agree with gigashadow about MF'ing. It's like "free delivery" in a furniture shop - the price of delivery is already included. So MF doesn't really boost your droprates, just gets them to normal - so it sucks for guys who just play the game or deliver their own furniture.
I'm somewhere in the middle. I don't mind doing a dozen boss runs every now and then, but nowhere as many as I've heard people here do. (Hours and hours of Pit runs, dear God.)
The fact is I don't really enjoy doing boss runs. What I do love is finding uniques, the rest is just an annoyance.
The problem with Diablo is that you need to do lots of runs to get decent end-game gear irrespective of your class. The alternative would be to play single-pass untwinked, but that's painfully slow to play. I don't have the time to spare either way!
Let me rephrase that... I'd rather use the free time I have to start up a new character, with a new build, than to waste it in boss run after boss run, or slowly whacking my way through Hell.
I feel the exact same way. I don't mind doing some occasional boss runs or trav runs myself, but to do dozens and dozens for no reward is pointless and boring. Yeah it's all for the golden items, but the game shouldn't have to be like that. I recently tried playing through the game Normal, Nightmare and Hell with an untwinked Paladin heavy on Zeal/Fanaticism with Vengeance and Charge thrown in for large damage. I was doing runs with about 140MF and amassed some pretty good gear: Natalya Helm, IK Glove, Duriel Shell, Infernostride, Plague Bearer Sword, Raven Frost & Dwarf Star rings + good res belt and ammy. While I wouldn't say that gear I got was godly, it was enough to get me through nightmare. But when I get to Hell I hit a brick wall and couldn't do anything. I spent hours doing runs trying to get better gear to get me through Hell... but I couldn't get anything worthwhile. I found some slightly better stuff here and there, but nothing that totally gave me an overhaul and an advantage.
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