Melee Wizard

[HappyAssassin]

Will this be a viable build? Between the time distortion skills, teleport, the close range "magic blade" attack she keeps using in the demo and the as yet unseen "enchant weapon" skill, it seems like it could be a really cool light melee character. I do wonder whether it will fit in the design philosophy they are going for. It might be the case that characters are designed to be generalists and not focus on certain skill trees. Also issues with stat distribution could come up, since we dont get to decide any more and the Wizard could be extremely fragile in later areas of the game.

Maybe it would be a good PvP build. Anyway, thoughts?

[Niniux]

I really hope so. I've always liked builds that are the antithesis of the typical archetypes. A melee wizard. The Singer in D2, or the Ranger.

My hope is that Blizzard is doing everything they can to allow people to have true freedom with making their character truly unique. I think going with a lot of passives and masteries is a good way towards encouraging this. I think it will not only allow fringe builds but also allow some interested hybrid classes.

[konfeta]

http://www.shacknews.com/featuredarticle.x?id=1020&page=3

This forum needs a sticky already? My CTRL-V key is tiring itself out.

Short version: yes, if the Conjuration tree is anything to go by, a melee Wizard will be viable.

[melianor]

We also have a complete list of the Wizard skill trees, much the same as with Shacknews in the Diablo3 Wiki :D I will assemble a thread with viable information and make it worthwhile for a sticky.


Wizard basic information (http://www.diablowiki.net/Wizard)
Wizard Skills (http://www.diablowiki.net/Wizard_skills)


I will dig for more information that relates to the Wizard and can either be found in the Wiki or elsewhere.


This forum needs a sticky already?

There ya go -> The Wizard Knowledge & Guide Library [1st Edition]

[Apocalypse]

i gotta say at first i thought they were killing the melee wizards but after seeing the wizard tree i think they will be better than ever. i myself will make one but probably will not be my first char(though right now a casting wizard will be)

[Sylvanite]

I think that Blizzard is purposefully making a melee wizard viable. The lack of attribute requirements on all items will be awesome too.....Sword and shield wizard? Wizard with a giant hammer? Should be doable.

On another note, I see melee wizards playing out the best by having longer term buffs up, but then debuffing groups of enemies before going into melee range.

A string of magic missiles that slow, creatures, reduce their armor, and increase their damage taken? As well as adding a percent of weapon damage to your Magic Missile? Then teleport in, drop a slow time, and start mowing things down.....

Who knows what will be possible or not based on mana and game play, but I could see it playing out like that and being totally awesomesauce.

[melianor]

I like the way these ideas are going. Combined with Magic Weapon (http://www.diablowiki.net/Wizard_skills#Magic_Weapon), Lethal Energy (http://www.diablowiki.net/Wizard_skills#Lethal_Energy), Stone Skin (http://www.diablowiki.net/Wizard_skills#Stone_Skin), Slowing Strikes (http://www.diablowiki.net/Wizard_skills#Slowing_Strikes) and Mirror Image (http://www.diablowiki.net/Wizard_skills#Mirror_Image) and there are even more options open.

There are many ways to build a Melee wizard from the skills we see available at the moment. I think it even more simple to come up with an idea for a melee wizard, than other builds. Would that imply that its an intention to not only use spells, but melee attacks too, possibly to bridge mana recovery?

[zero]

if (attribute auto) then (not melee wizard)

[konfeta]

Can we get over this already?

Items + Skills = Melee Casters, auto-attributes or not.

[poroboszcz]

Will this be a viable build? Between the time distortion skills, teleport, the close range "magic blade" attack she keeps using in the demo and the as yet unseen "enchant weapon" skill, it seems like it could be a really cool light melee character. I do wonder whether it will fit in the design philosophy they are going for. It might be the case that characters are designed to be generalists and not focus on certain skill trees. Also issues with stat distribution could come up, since we dont get to decide any more and the Wizard could be extremely fragile in later areas of the game.

Maybe it would be a good PvP build. Anyway, thoughts?

Looking at the current skill trees it seems like making hybrids is still going to be pretty tough, as each skill has like 4 - 6 "synergies" that you'd like to use within the same tree. A pure melee wizard looks like a viable build by just looking at the skill trees. I wonder if you'll be able to enchant other players with magic weapon skill.

As for PvP I'm afraid that with auto-stats system a melee wizard may be at a disadvantage against other melee chars in terms of life/chance to block/chance to dodge/chance to hit, but it's kind of hard to tell yet.

I was thinking about making melee/electrocute hybrid build and calling him with some cool sith name :cool:

[melianor]

if (attribute auto) then (not melee wizard)

I don't think that is correct. The skills for a melee type wizard are there and since there are NO attribute requirements on items you could get items that boost the needed attributes.

[HappyAssassin]

Also the Wizard has a skill that increases her health by a %, so she could potentially be a tank (especially against slowed enemies).

[NKlint]

A "Tank" Wizard could be feasable. Especially if they specialize in the Conjuring Tree and with the aid of the Arcane Armor skill from the Arcane Tree...

Arcane Armor

While your Storm Armor, Stone Armor, Stone Skin or Temporal Armor spells are active, your armor is increased by 20%.

* Rank: 0/15

Another interesting mastery; this one boosts the armor, but only while one (or more) of the other protective spells are active.

I wonder if one could use multiple + armor spells... IIRC Frozen Armor and Chilling Armor and Shiver Armor canceled each other out if used together... I wonder though if a spell like Stone Skin, and Storm Armor stack. Since they don't actually do the same thing; Stone Skin repels damage up to a point while Storm Armor damages the enemy slightly. Arcane Armor does increase the armor bonus if you have Stone Skin up, like it does Storm armor and Temporal armor however. So this leads me to believe that they probably don't stack. Unless the armor bonus from Arcane armor is separate from the armor bonus from Storm armor - meaning that it only triggers while the armor spell is active and it doesn't add to the armor bonus on the spell, rather multiplies the base armor then adds the multiplier from a spell like storm armor.

Armor Spells may stack and remain balanced if the equation is...

Base armor * Storm Armor = X
Base Armor * Arcane Armor bonus = Y (while armor spell is active)
Base Armor * Stone Skin = A
Base Armor * Temporal Armor = B

Base armor +X +Y +A +B = Total Armor

Arcane Armor may stack but would probably be imbalanced if the equation is...

(Armor Spell > 0 = Base armor + Arcane Armor Bonus = B
(Base armor * Storm Armor) = X *B
(Base armor * Stone Skin) = Y *B
(Base armor * Temporal Armor) = A *B

Base armor +X*B+Y*B+A*B = (Total Armor)B²

Meaning that you'd get the armor bonus from Storm armor and the benefits of Stone Skin and Temporal armor plus the armor bonus from Arcane Armor three times resulting in an exponential increase in your bonus armor rating if you have only two armor spells active...

The Arcane Armor bonus should only apply once, but It would be interesting if the Armor spells could stack. Though from what I'm foreseeing that probably won't be the case, since the armor spells could render the Wizard virtually invulnerable to harm. Since the stacking of armor bonuses from Arcane Armor along with the Base Damage reduction from Stone Skin and Temporal Armor would result in a steady stream of 0 damage to the Wizard and the Combination with Storm Armor would deal a steady amount of Damage to the Wizards assailant, if the base armor is high enough. It basically means that Arcane Armor would be abused as a skill and may give the Wizard Greater armor class than the Actual "Tanks" built into the game. It would definetly be a Broken PVP skill so Arcane Armor should only Trigger Once only if at least one Armor Spell is active and not give bonus armor for each armor spell active.

At least my hopes are that Blizzard will be Balancing game play not only for PVE but for PVP also.

[Sylvanite]

Just thought I would add that the interview with JW on the front page confirms beyond a shadow of a doubt that melee wizard will not only be feasible, but is actually a build that Blizzard specifically designed the Wizard to utilize. I think we probably all knew that by looking at the skill tree, but with Jay Wilson flat out saying it, it really gives me confidence that not only will the build be available, but it will actually be good, even untwinked.

For me, that is exciting news. This will be the first build I play, unless something amazing presents itself via the two unannounced classes or release of skills for Doc and Barb.

[melianor]

I agree with NKlint here. Stacking armors would possibly overpower the wizard gameplay or some kind of drawbacks would have to be added when multiple armors are active, which then kind of defeats the purpose and only adds more things that need to be considered about the balance of skills and balance of the different character classes.

And thankyou Sylvanite for sharing this very good piece of information out of the videos :) Good to hear, that once again the caster class will be able to go melee as well!

[GoDSamurai]

will be cool if they put on d3
i actually built sword sorc (which nobody did) on d2, maxed lvl enchant, and maxed lvl on shileld defence so that sorc won die easily. it was however useless cuz it couldnt kill single monster in hell level lol.
so what i did was increasing her strenght an gave her better sword. I think I gave her grandfathersword, which she finally started killing hell monsters, yet slowly :)

[zero]

and the life??? with auto stat i think that life is poor

[redrach]

No auto-stat means that you will be required to obtain life in some part from your equipment. Hopefully there's a lot of equipment that satisfies this, or we'll quickly see cookie-cutter builds.

[Apocalypse]

and the life??? with auto stat i think that life is poor

wiz has a skill that boosts total hp, i see no problems with a melee wiz now, infact like i said before i think they will be even better in d3 as the devs have given alot of skills to support a battlemage build

[melianor]

Look into the First build ideas for some ideas for a melee wizard and see for yourself, that this will be quite possible. even just look at the skills in the conjuring tree. Most of those skills are laid out for melee wizard builds.

Stats will need to be aquired through items. Since there are NO stat requirements for items, wearing heavy plate won't be a problem, unless this is restricted by class, which might pose a problem then.

[Angel_of_Wrath]

It made me wonder about blocking and if the wizard will carry your typical orb/shield combination... especially since the shield seems to block damage a percentage of the time now. Or does a staff have a block ability? I know you got your Conjured Armor but... hmmm I swore I read something that touched on that somewhere... anyone remember anything like that? Would be sweeet.

And I wonder if they will have some nice robes as class-specific instead of just wearing a full plate.

[jamesisbest]

Looking at the wizard skills it definately looks like they wanted to make a melee wizard not only a viable build but one of the main build archetypes for the wizard. I plan on making a pvp melee wizard at some point (may even try to make it my first character). I enjoy the unusual builds the most in Diablo 2 just like many other people. My favorite thing in Diablo 2 was trying to come up with unusual builds that nobody used for pvp, not to make them "godly pvpers" but solid pvpers. They were more fun than making the standard cookie-cutter pvp builds. I think the Wizard shows a lot of promise for versatility especially with runes making a potential for many variations of the same build. I think slowing time though not a skill that directly supports melee would be a great way of making your character a tanker, especially in conjuction with the other melee skills and defensive skills.

[Sylvanite]

Stats will need to be aquired through items. Since there are NO stat requirements for items, wearing heavy plate won't be a problem, unless this is restricted by class, which might pose a problem then.

Unless the Auto stats change depending on what trees you allocate skill points in : )

[Keighvin]

But that still wouldn't pose a problem for equipping, though I doubt that is the way they are going to go. And you would still need to get most of your "custom" stats from equip.

[NKlint]

Unless the Auto stats change depending on what trees you allocate skill points in : )

That suggestion reminds me of the way skills could be accessed in Titan Quest. You would pump up the skill tree with points, those points gave you health/mana/damage or whatever as you devoted points into it, and then you could access more advanced skills after so many points were spent... But I don't think this is the case with Diablo III, it looks like all you need to do is devote points into the tree from any skill from an earlier tier in order to access the next tier. I don't think that the fact you are devoting points into the Conjuring Tree will give you extra strength or dexterity. However it does appear that if you devote points into a skill like Damage Resistance, Conjured Health, Weapon Mastery, Conjured Armor and Armor Piercing, they seem to boost not so much attributes or other skills but your items and stats your attributes would have enhanced.

On a side note, I wonder if Weapon Mastery and Magic Weapon and skills like that effect projectile weapons like bows and throwing weapons...

[phool]

Melee wizards will definitely be viable, the only questions are (a) how viable are hybrids and (b) will there be any significent variation between serious melee wizard builds?

[Apocalypse]

Melee wizards will definitely be viable, the only questions are (a) how viable are hybrids and (b) will there be any significent variation between serious melee wizard builds?


2 great questions. the first question i am seriously curious about, not just for wiz either but all classes

[konfeta]

B) Yes. Easily.

Take a close look at the Conjuration tree's skills:

http://www.diablowiki.net/Conjuration_Skill_Tree#Weapon_Mastery

Then consider Armors, AoE attacks, Frost Attacks, Time Spells, variability in terms of how much you invest in survival skills vs. damage skills, etc.

I can already see like 4-5 different melee Wizard builds and there are probably tens, if not more, of subtypes and hybridizations between them.

[Apocalypse]

assuming all the skills are actually effective and we are not forced into the same cookie cutter characters because only 1 way is worth a damn. lets hope they got it right this time

[popalot]

Will she be able to magically enhance her punch multiple times with magic?

Mass of mini teleports( it'd look kinda like a charge and without the strike at the end ) that move only 1 yard in a certain direction? The wizard could cancel it at any time during the teleport line and into some attack perhaps? This type of teleport could also allow the wizard to channel a shockwave and get up close to release it. Maybe the normal teleport could have a delay to attacking others but this one won't. Maybe the wizard could have a grab skill where the target's screen goes white due to the blinding light, and the target is hit a couple of times during that time and this teleport could allow her to do it instantly. The wizard could fire a few spells during that time at point blank range for increased damage.

What about a skill where the wizard puts all her magical energy into her legs and her striking fist, and jumps up and taking the target upwards with her? Once in mid air, she could cast some aerial ice blasts.

[GoBigRed]

as far as hybrids go, if they're trying to make mana harder, you just wont be able to mass spam the same spell over and over like you could in d2, you also gotta take in the duration of each spell to the ability to regain mana, should be interesting

[popalot]

What about casting 'Delayed Spells' or force one of your spells to be delayed ( you casted this spell a few seconds ago so you can release it at some point unexpectedly on some person, kinda like hiding it until the last moment )

[popalot]

1.25x more powerful spell effects if casted at pointblank range? like freezing/slowing for 5seconds instead of 4 normally? and slowing at 25% instead of 20%?

[xchrisbobisx]

I think people try too hard to not fit a archetype...sure in D2 there where paladins with bows, amazons w/ 2h swords, barbs with bows. etc etc etc. they may "work" but ultimately suck because the class is a wizard. your SUPPOSE to cast magic. the asian girl is not big and swole like the barbarian chick and in cloth a wizard looks 1 shotable by a whirlwind. (and they should be if a wizard is stupid enough to get into melee range)
even if it would work im sure blizzard would fix skills. so there would not be wizards meleeing barbarians to death. no barbarians shooting rangers to death.

[popalot]

do wizards shout their spells when they cast?

[Cardy]

lol! popalot! you are cracking me up with your random suggestions :jig:

what if the wizard had a little golem up her sleeve that she could release to absorb the energy of the earth and then unleash all that energy as a spectacular golem nova that is fire based since she has no fire and then creates golem saprophytes that grow out of the monster killed by the spell and then the golem saprophytes merge together and go back into the wizard's sleeve unless the golem is too big in which case it adds +3 to all skills for about 5 minutes and if the wizard somehow manages to stack the +3 skills 3 times she goes crazy and unleashes an armageddon upon the land where meteors that turn into cows crash into the ground and join your force as angelic bovines that also have little golems in their utters that repeat the cycle forever and for all eternity?!? :jig:

[Cardy]

just wanted to take a minute to say something intelligent since my last post was... not.

I was reading through the wizard skills and I was extremely impressed with the skill Temporal armor. A skill like that could become extremely overpowered if it was at a very high level and it was reducing all damage every second. What do you guys think?

oops, almost forgot the jig! blasphemy! :jig:

[Ravenwoods]

While D2 was great in creating non-stereotypical classes thanks to its manual attribute distribution etc, D3 I am afraid will fall back to holy trinity exists in other games. D3 is very influenced by WoW and I fear and think that it will end up working like WoW at mechanical level too :( So, no viable melee Wizards unfortunately I guess.

[Keighvin]

Raven, you do know that the Wizard has multiple skills that are melee ranged, plus armors, plus no stat reqs on weapons or armor. That sounds like a melee wizard to me.

[Knight_Wolf]

While D2 was great in creating non-stereotypical classes thanks to its manual attribute distribution etc, D3 I am afraid will fall back to holy trinity exists in other games. D3 is very influenced by WoW and I fear and think that it will end up working like WoW at mechanical level too :( So, no viable melee Wizards unfortunately I guess.


Not true, people must stop overreacting on everything, seriously.

Most of the viable, useful and playable builds in D2 were built around either specialization in certain skills or a skill tree ( i.e Zealadin ) or certain items ( i.e Bowazon ), and both are still present in D3.

If you people lack the imagination to make a melee wizard in D3 that's your problem not Blizz, stats playing a large, effective role in character customization is a just myth ( calls Myth Busters for help :crazyeyes: )

As for making a good Melee Wizard, it is possible.

Melee Wizard:

-Melee Skills (Focus on the Wizard skills that work good with close combat)

Stone skin
Damage resistance
Weapon mastery
Mirror image
Armor piercing
Magic weapon
Slowing strikes
Conjured armor
Arcane Armor
Storm Armor
Power Armor
Temporal Armor
Lethal Energy
Slow Time
Teleport

-Melee gear (all with modifiers that improve melee combat)

Powerful Sword
Heavy Plate-mail
Heavy Boots, Gloves, Headgear, Pants
Rings and Amulets


So it appears that lack of customization is pure nonsense cause there are enough skills in the Wizard tree ( which i'm sure many didn't even bother to look at ) that scream for people to make a melee wizard, i'm tired of all the whining about "stats" and "no customization" in D3, at least when you say something try to back it up with facts FOR A CHANGE.

[Robwiks]

Not true, people must stop overreacting on everything, seriously.

Most of the viable, useful and playable builds in D2 were built around either specialization in certain skills or a skill tree ( i.e Zealadin ) or certain items ( i.e Bowazon ), and both are still present in D3.

If you people lack the imagination to make a melee wizard in D3 that's your problem not Blizz, stats playing a large, effective role in character customization is a just myth ( calls Myth Busters for help :crazyeyes: )

As for making a good Melee Wizard, it is possible.

Melee Wizard:

-Melee Skills (Focus on the Wizard skills that work good with close combat)

Stone skin
Damage resistance
Weapon mastery
Mirror image
Armor piercing
Magic weapon
Slowing strikes
Conjured armor
Arcane Armor
Storm Armor
Power Armor
Temporal Armor
Lethal Energy
Slow Time
Teleport

-Melee gear (all with modifiers that improve melee combat)

Powerful Sword
Heavy Plate-mail
Heavy Boots, Gloves, Headgear, Pants
Rings and Amulets


So it appears that lack of customization is pure nonsense cause there are enough skills in the Wizard tree ( which i'm sure many didn't even bother to look at ) that scream for people to make a melee wizard, i'm tired of all the whining about "stats" and "no customization" in D3, at least when you say something try to back it up with facts FOR A CHANGE.

Good post.

[NASE]

Most of the viable, useful and playable builds in D2 were built around either specialization in certain skills or a skill tree ( i.e Zealadin ) or certain items ( i.e Bowazon ), and both are still present in D3.

A bowazon is build around stats specialization just as much as items specialization - no dex = bad damage. And eventually, zealadins are good because they don't need that much dex/str to get good defence/block/damage. Force them to take high str/dex - as in, auto placed stats to get max block with bad block shields/low holysheild and to wear heavy armours - and zealadins seem atleast to me much more fragile as it would damage their life greatly.

[Knight_Wolf]

A bowazon is build around stats specialization just as much as items specialization - no dex = bad damage. And eventually, zealadins are good because they don't need that much dex/str to get good defence/block/damage. Force them to take high str/dex - as in, auto placed stats to get max block with bad block shields/low holysheild and to wear heavy armours - and zealadins seem atleast to me much more fragile as it would damage their life greatly.


Not bad points, but you have to remember that what makes a Bowazon play different from any other amazon build with the same stats is the skills and items used.

Besides, stats works quite differently than in D2, in D3 each one has several effects ( increasing max life, Block, critical chance ... etc etc ), so if items are made in two categories, one that moderately increases a certain stat as a whole ( STR, WILL POWER, .... etc etc ), and one that significantly increases a certain one of those stat effects directly ( life, critical hit chance, block, .. etc etc ) this will ensure that any build can be complemented by the right items and skills.

Examples would be:
-Heavy Chainmail of STR: one of its modifiers would be ( +10 to STR ) which is a stat
-Breastplate of Life: one of its modifiers would be ( +40 to life ) which is a stat effected value
-Claymore of Might: one of its modifiers would be ( +20 to STR ) which is a stat
-Violent Double Axe of Massacre: one of its modifiers would be ( +35% chance to do critical damage ) which is a stat effected value

And so on, now imagine that a crafting system in D3 that allows to modify items and increase their efficiency by a certain percentage ( including increasing their modifiers value ) for a huge cost of gold, now no more tedious stat allocation will be needed if the items had good stat increasing modifiers variety + a crafting system that allows for increasing item quality and its modifiers effects .. specially the stat increasing ones ... volia :thumbup:

[konfeta]

Actually... interesting point you got there, maybe the new crafting system will be the new attribute customizers?

A little like enchanting from WoW?

[NASE]

Not bad points, but you have to remember that what makes a Bowazon play different from any other amazon build with the same stats is the skills and items used.

I know, though with the same stats, bowazon aren't that good. That's one of the reason why there aren't that many hardcore bowazon.

However, I'm not saying that diablo III will not pull it off. They actually may make it work very well. I'm just saying that diablo II does work on stats quite a bit and that I will feel it as a lost when I can't do anything about stats.
On thing that might work is to get different pre-set lines; One forinstance would focus on heavily on mana or vitality - or what ever will be the equivalence - making in interesting for a pure caster. While an other path might go for an more or less even distribution between the different stats making it better for a mele build. the same can then be done for a barbarian. One that focusses heavily on health and str with a minor focus on the other stats. And one that solely focusses on str - damage - fury and a tiny bit of life.

If you change the stats system to an item-bases system, this will mean that certain items will be much less interesting, simply because they don't offer the needed stats. You are going to use a Claymore of Might meaning that you can't use a Claymore of speed because it doesn't offer the stats you need.
they are different thing thus are best kept as apart as possible.



@ konfeta: why does everyone want things from WOW. Really, if wow were that a good game, I wouldn't be playing diablo, now would I.

[Knight_Wolf]

However, I'm not saying that diablo III will not pull it off. They actually may make it work very well. I'm just saying that diablo II does work on stats quite a bit and that I will feel it as a lost when I can't do anything about stats.

If you examine Stats carefully you will realize that they are just indirect representations of other important factors ( besides previously working as item caps in D2 which is no more the case in D3) important factors like ( life, block, critical, .. etc etc ) which are what really matters.

So if you have in D3 a passive skill that makes each point in a stat pool more effective ( like the Barb skill the makes each point in STR stat equal more damage ) thus increasing those resultant factors effects, then it is no different than manually increasing the stat itself.

And if the crafting system can modify items then the game becomes really what it should be, focusing on customizing characters using a large selection of items and skills.




If you change the stats system to an item-bases system, this will mean that certain items will be much less interesting, simply because they don't offer the needed stats. You are going to use a Claymore of Might meaning that you can't use a Claymore of speed because it doesn't offer the stats you need.


If you are going for a fast attacking build take the Claymore of Speed, if going for the brute builds then use the Claymore of Might, and if you want a bit of both there could be a unique Claymore that offers a small bonus to both stats, or just find another item than the claymore to increase the wanted stat, so now getting the right items will be critical and different from player to player depending on their selected skills ( clearly made in D3 with specializations chances in mind )


why everyone doesn't want anything from WOW. Really, if wow wasn't a good game there wouldn't be millions of Blizzard fans playing it, now would they.

/Fixed

Ahm, actually the WoW hate is getting kinda ridiculous, just because you don't like WoW as a whole ( and it surely has its problems ) doesn't mean it doesn't have good ideas, and those good ideas will benefit Diablo 3 and make it a better game which ALL that matters regardless of the origin of the idea .. it just has be viewed separate from it source and have its benefits logically examined, mindlessly refusing ideas just cause they are related to WoW is illogical.

[NASE]

If you examine Stats carefully you will realise that they are just indirect representations of other important factors ( besides working as item caps ) important factors like ( life, block, critical, .. etc etc ) which are what really matters.

So if you have in D3 a passive skill that makes each point in a stat pool more effective ( like the Barb skill the makes each point in STR stat equal more damage ) thus increasing those resultant factors effects, then it is no different than manually increasing the stat itself.

You are going from a 3 layer system to a 2 layer system where the 3th layer is simulated in the 2 remaining Layer. That ain't the same. Now stats like system will be in competition with direct skills and with items.

It's kind of like a hardware. Each hardware component has different layers, going from a physical layer over some sort of interface to software and all those complicated things. Why do they do this, because combining layers just can't offer the same functionally/safety as different layers.


In short, cutting down a layer is only acceptable when it give huge improvements towards balancing - atleast for me. Strangely, you find lots of reasons , though balancing isn't one of them. And that surprises me.


@Knight_Wolf: the problem isn't that enchanting is part of wow. The problem is that it appears to me that konfeta likes the idea simply because it's part of wow and simply because it works there. Diablo ain't wow so simply taking over idea doesn't work.

[Knight_Wolf]

@Knight_Wolf: the problem isn't that enchanting is part of wow. The problem is that it appears to me that konfeta likes the idea simply because it's part of wow and simply because it works there. Diablo ain't wow so simply taking over idea doesn't work.

The real problem is that you assumed two things without much evidence.

1-You assumed Konfeta likes the idea JUST because it is in WoW, actually i never played WoW nor did i know that enchanting in WoW is any similar to what i wish the Crafting system in D3 to be, i think he merely used the WoW example as reference, which doesn't mean in any way that the crafting system in D3 must be exactly identical to the WoW enchanting ( whatever it is )

2-You also assumed that JUST because it is a mechanic from WoW that it simply won't work in D3 ( which is what the majority of WoW haters do ), that's very biased thinking and things in game development don't work purely on personal preference, if it was tested and proven that the crafting system that allows to modify/enhance items will make D3 a better game then it must be included in the game regardless of anyone's preferences.




Personally i think a system like that will make the game impressive, the limitless possibilities to modify items will result in almost endless variations of items ( modifications with some limits for balance ), for example every item can only be modified one time and the player can only modify one of the item aspects ... plus .. the more important/effective that aspect is the more gold the player will pay to get that modification which will make a good gold sink.

With this no longer will we have 100 players with identical copies of the same gear, instead each player will modify his gear respectively to fit his skills and play style.

[NASE]

2-You also assumed that JUST because it is a mechanic from WoW that it simply won't work in D3 ( which is what the majority of WoW haters do )

There is just as little reason to assume the opposite.


anyway, lets give this thread back the melee wizard shall we?

[Knight_Wolf]

There is just as little reason to assume the opposite


Actually there is no reason to assume it won't work before testing it out, so Blizz is the only one who has an actual say in this matter ( not the angry WoW haters ), let's leave it at that ( or maybe until they actually reveal what kind of crafting system they have on mind for D3 to replace the Cube )


anyway, lets give this thread back the melee wizard shall we?

Ok, so what kind of Melee Wizard variations do you have in mind.

I think it is possible to make a speed based melee Wizard be investing a lot in these skills:

Slowing strikes
Slow Time
Teleport
Mirror image

All of them allow the wizard some space to move and slow his/her enemies to a crawl, combined with gear that increases Hit%, Dodge%, Block% and Running speed this wizard will move very quickly, distract the enemies, stop their projectiles and be able to inflict damage on them before they can even react.

Another option would be making a brute melee wizard by investing heavily in those skills for example:

Stone skin
Damage resistance
Weapon mastery
Armor piercing
Magic weapon
Slowing strikes
Power Armor
Lethal Energy

With this many physical enhancements abilities this wizard can really deal lots of physical damage ( given a good weapon ) and stand a lot of punishment ( and could even tank if the gear provides a life/vitality bonus )


Mix some medium range magic skills with any of the above builds and you will get a very versatile and effective warlock at your command.


So what are your dream builds for a melee wizard ?

[NASE]

Actually there is no reason to assume it won't work before testing it out, so Blizz is the only one who has an actual say in this matter ( not the angry WoW haters ), let's leave it at that ( or maybe until they actually reveal what kind of crafting system they have on mind for D3 to replace the Cube )

Even still, there is no reason to assume it will work without testing it.

Ok, so what kind of Melee Wizard variations do you have in mind.

I don't, I've entered this thread because I feel that you misinterpreted bowazons. And those builds are where me love is. Melee wizard simply don't seem that interesting to me - nofi.
Ranged enchantresses do however, and if I remember the wizard skills correct, that's atleast is one build that in the current layout won't be easy.

So what are your dream builds for a melee wizard ?

A full vitality wizard or a titan wizard.
I guess we knew that one already.

[konfeta]

@Knight_Wolf: the problem isn't that enchanting is part of wow. The problem is that it appears to me that konfeta likes the idea simply because it's part of wow and simply because it works there. Diablo ain't wow so simply taking over idea doesn't work.

The problem here is that people like you have rampart WoW-phobia, when upon seeing any suggestion that is even tangentially related to the game as the incarnation of the Antichrist himself.

(hey, strawman accusations are FUN, aren't they?)

I like the idea because the idea itself is good, irregardless of its source. World of Warcraft is an action oriented RPG. Simply by overlap of genres and the scope of the game alone it will have an astounding number of good ideas that can be used in Diablo 3 and will be used in Diablo 3.

Me, and many other such people, don't want to see Diablo 3 to be a smaller version of WoW, a clone of WoW, or any other repetitive similie for WoW. It's just that we don't have such an aversion to the game that we can't see some interesting concepts in it that work.


*P.S. Ranged Enchantress is still very possible. Slow Time, Mirror Image, Teleport, Frost Nova; stick on a good a bow and Enchant Weapon and go to town. In fact, a ranged enchantress seems far more viable to me in Diablo 3 than it ever was in Diablo 2 excluding equipment options, judging from the skills alone.

[NASE]

My apologies, just forget I ever mentioned wow.


The ranged enchantress you are building seems to me like slow shooting, low damage, single target bow user compared to a true bowmaster. The only thing that might have power is the Mirror Image though that's every depending on how exactly the skill is implemented.

if you then look at diablo 2. You have 3 skills that play along nicely - fine, 2 of them come from equipment, though it's enchant that gives the skills power. You have enchant to boots fire damage, exploding arrow to deliver it to several monsters and pierce to give an extra boost.

I'm just not seeing it at this moment. Perhaps when we know more about items.

[konfeta]

Well, character customization in Diablo 2 was <insert arbitary high percentage here> equipment and skill choices; in most builds attributes supported those choices, not the other way around. If Blizzard promising more customization while taking away assignable attributes, it strikes me that we will likely have more varied, interesting, and powerful equipment choices.

Form this perspective, a Wizard using a bow/crossbow/whatever will have a large variety of defensive and crowd control skills, as well as a damage booster from the new enchant, and can focus her equipment entirely on nifty items that would give the equivilent of piercing/exploding arrow. I mean, compare a naked Sorc to a naked Wizard on skills alone - wouldn't you agree that the Wizard has far more useful skills to a bow user than the Sorc?

Alternatively, the Wizard could play more like the Amazon (excluding mana leach/pot spam) - normal arrows for enemies that don't warrant mana expendure and that weapon-damage-boosting-spell-damage skill to stand in for Freezing/Immolation Arrow.

Unless Blizzard messes up the balance of these skills or makes the itemization poor, I already see what... Nuke caster, crowd control caster, melee fighter, ranged fighter, melee/cast hybrid, range/cast hybrid? In a single class from the skills alone? With quality itemization, skill runes, whatever crafting system they use, and maybe other stuff there are already plenty of build options.

[NASE]

I agree, pure skill bases things look quite good. Though you need to look at possible combination with special gear as the skills alone don't cut it - for me that is. Gear that will allow for some sort of splash effect or multishot/strafe effect.

The only enchantment from skills that seems to add elemental damage is the 'Magic Weapon' skill. This should add magic damage and I would be surprised if there were magic exploding arrows.
And I really don't see multishot/strafe to be on items. Those things would be way to powerful I think.
So eventhough skills look good, they'll have to come up with some strange items/rune effects.

And to play like amazons, they need amazon skills. Thing like mutlishot or strafe. I don't expect any of those to be available for other characters. They might have guided arrow or magic arrow equivalences, though that aren't the skills used by amazons, simply because they lack the multihit aspect of multishot/strafe.

P.S. Unless Blizzard messes up the balance of these skills or makes the itemization poor, I already see what... Nuke caster, crowd control caster, melee fighter, ranged fighter, melee/cast hybrid, range/cast hybrid? In a single class from the skills alone? With quality itemization, skill runes, whatever crafting system they use, and maybe other stuff there are already plenty of build options.
Just imagine what perfect additional stats customisation could add.

[konfeta]

We have a magic damage fireball now. Can't think it would be too far off to have a magic damage explosion bow.

Just imagine what perfect additional stats customisation could add.

It would add a perfect stat distribution for each of the builds. In other words, not add any real customization at all. Unless you call "pump willpower for spell damage" vs. "pump vitality for hitpoints" customization unique to stats, because items and stat focusing skills cover that pretty well.

(Fringe builds not withstanding)

[DiabloIIIFan]

I think that Blizzard is purposefully making a melee wizard viable. The lack of attribute requirements on all items will be awesome too.....Sword and shield wizard? Wizard with a giant hammer? Should be doable.

On another note, I see melee wizards playing out the best by having longer term buffs up, but then debuffing groups of enemies before going into melee range.

A string of magic missiles that slow, creatures, reduce their armor, and increase their damage taken? As well as adding a percent of weapon damage to your Magic Missile? Then teleport in, drop a slow time, and start mowing things down.....

Who knows what will be possible or not based on mana and game play, but I could see it playing out like that and being totally awesomesauce.

Just a question.

You said you see a lot of melee wizards playing by debuffing enemies before engaging in melee combat etc.

Does this mean that there's a DIII demo out or something? Or are you talking about closed beta?

I know this post was made a long time ago, but I just wanted to ask. I didn't follow the making of DIII as closely lately, at least not as much as I'd like to.

Anyone know if there's a demo available or there's just a closed beta or something?

Sorry for the derail.

[konfeta]

"I see" is just an expression that means the same as "I can visualize this happening." D3 isn't anywhere remotely close to being in beta stages. Maybe by next winter if we are lucky.

[DiabloIIIFan]

"I see" is just an expression that means the same as "I can visualize this happening." D3 isn't anywhere remotely close to being in beta stages. Maybe by next winter if we are lucky.

Lol duh!

*slaps forehead*

Stupid question from a newbie, as usual :)

Thank you for clarifying. I thought it was strange because I knew I read somewhere that DIII is gonna be finished only in maybe 1.5 years or so, or maybe more.

[Chorkstain]

Somehow I don't think a pure melee Wizard would ever be super effective. To my mind, putting points into melee skills would be a way of conserving mana. Although yeah, this time around the caster class has more utility spells so they could supplement a melee caster's arsenal. With a build like this, I'd love to use the passive skill Mana Burst, the one where you deal extra damage casting spells from full mana. If you're conserving mana by attacking in melee, you could strategically eliminate hordes with a Mana Burst spell, and then finish off the remainders with your sword. I still reckon it would be a pretty explosive, area damage oriented character, however.

[vinke07]

i was thinking about wizard weapons

i think that blades will be suitable for this character, you could wear 2 and improve your spectral blade with the blade weapon mods, like posion, cb, critical strikes, life llech or mana leech...