View Full Version : 2 D3 promises that will never be fullfilled
Just my own hard opinion FYI.
1. Teamwork, as stated from Jay Wilson that D3 will be more teamwork oriented.
First of all, I know too well of the promise of "teamwork". It doesn't really matter how much teamwork feature there is, people aren't interested in it. If people really do teamwork, the only reason that they have to do so is the rewards. It's always "what do I get for helping this guy out? a good feeling? pft I'm not going to waste my MP healing this guy". Since potions will be limited in D3 and health/mana orbs just be obtained to restore your character, people are likely to save their mana and let others use theirs instead.
The only way that I could think of to have authentic teamwork, is by players gaining extra EXP as long as their party members are alive, or if the monsters are so strong that it's actually necessary to keep your teammate alive, or else you'll have to wait for them to respawn to the checkpoint. Or if your teammate dies the monster gains extra stat bonuses while still giving out the same amount of EXP.
2. Fast pace by globes
D2 will be faster pace than D3 will ever be (at this point in time). In D2 if you're missing half of your party (assuming that everyone is in an act properly suited for their level) you'll manage fine, which leaves time for the other half of your teammate repot/repair/sell and people will usually tend to switch off every once in awhile. It's too obvious that the health/mana globe at this point will never EVER meet it's intended purpose, let me explain why: It's job is to keep combat fast pace, yet people will have to fight slowly and carefully if they want to survive and if they're in dire need of HP, they'll have to sit out a fight until a globe is dropped. IF the health globes were to drop more frequently to avoid this, then it's just the same thing as having potions.
We will have to see until beta, honestly.
In theory, D3 will be better suited for partying than D2 (removal of hostility, no more penalty in terms of loot each player gets, etc.)
As for #2, well, no clue. Personally I want D3 to be more fun to play than D2, not faster or slower paced, so it's a fairly moot point. However, I think that globes will encourage not slower "sit out while globe drops" gameplay, but smarter play. Rotating damage, focus firing on threats, kiting as a group, intelligent use of non-damage spells...
Groups that work together well will go very fast.
Still, we can get an answer on some #2 right now from people who played at Blizzcon.
*hint*
It's too hard to find people who wisely use their characters. It's always "charge in and destroy as much as you can until you're low on hp then hide behind your teammate until you healed".
Even if D3 will try to force players to use their characters with finesse people will find another way around, or just ignore it completely. The only time where teamwork will be used the most is when the party is just friend with microphones.
With the new color scheme (no I'm not bashing the art), it may but dark, but it does have powerful animation and a variety of color to go with the area that it'll just attract more younger players, and well, we all know how younger players play games.
Friend list. Guilds. Love them, use them. Pubs will always suck wet buttocks in RPG, RTS, FPS, or any game where team work can be used. You don't even need microphones - I play TFT2 regularly on clan servers (not even being part of their clans, was just looking for normal players) and DotA with friends. In both cases we display reciprocal competence, teamwork, and enjoyable gaming without needing more than 1 line of text every minute.
Just because a bunch of idiots can't learn to play their characters or the game, doesn't mean the game is inherently broken.
fishycake
16-10-2008, 08:36
I recall how keenly Myth 3 The Wolf Age was anticipated.
And it sucked big time.
Myth players assumed it would be a step up from Myth 2 Soulblighter, and assumptions and opinions can be proved to be wrong.
All of the same can be applied to D3, could be right, could be very wrong.
Reddimus
16-10-2008, 11:33
I disagree with #2 simply due to the notion that they're aiming for overpoweredness with the skills in D3. Whereas in D2 there were quite a lot of filler skills that were ignored aside from synergies and the majority of the community stuck to only a few key spells--in D3 we'll have a bar of 5-7 active and very powerful skills. Just look at the barb.
1. Teamwork, as stated from Jay Wilson that D3 will be more teamwork oriented.
I think the big factor to remember is that dropped loot is a completely individual thing. Every item that you see, everything that drops from a monster, is only lootable by you and only you can see it. Thus, if you are a healer class (which at this point is still to be announced but seems and feels like a given) it is in your best interest to play your part and keep that meat shield alive so you can see your loot drop. In this respect (and a number of other class combinations) I think team play will be far more integral to the D3 experience than its predecessors.
2. Fast pace by globes
Don't forget that there ARE still potion drops and you can still stock up on them, it just won't be nearly as frequent as D1 or D2. In a fifteen minute play session I averaged between one to three health potion drops and one mana potion, although the drop rates might have been tweaked for the demo. The point is, I think that the health/mana globes will do the exact opposite of what you imply; I think that people will be forced to stay active in a fight and not "hide behind his party" so that you can pick up the orb when you need it and save the rationed pots for emergency situations.
1. Teamwork, as stated from Jay Wilson that D3 will be more teamwork oriented.
I think the big factor to remember is that dropped loot is a completely individual thing. Every item that you see, everything that drops from a monster, is only lootable by you and only you can see it. Thus, if you are a healer class (which at this point is still to be announced but seems and feels like a given) it is in your best interest to play your part and keep that meat shield alive so you can see your loot drop. In this respect (and a number of other class combinations) I think team play will be far more integral to the D3 experience than its predecessors.
2. Fast pace by globes
Don't forget that there ARE still potion drops and you can still stock up on them, it just won't be nearly as frequent as D1 or D2. In a fifteen minute play session I averaged between one to three health potion drops and one mana potion, although the drop rates might have been tweaked for the demo. The point is, I think that the health/mana globes will do the exact opposite of what you imply; I think that people will be forced to stay active in a fight and not "hide behind his party" so that you can pick up the orb when you need it and save the rationed pots for emergency situations.
It's too obvious that the health/mana globe at this point will never EVER meet it's intended purpose, let me explain why: It's job is to keep combat fast pace, yet people will have to fight slowly and carefully if they want to survive and if they're in dire need of HP, they'll have to sit out a fight until a globe is dropped. IF the health globes were to drop more frequently to avoid this, then it's just the same thing as having potions.
The design goal isn't to make the game faster paced in terms of killing speed/never pausing for strategy, etc. They'd just leave in potions and increase leech if they wanted that. They want fast paced play in terms of no downtime. They want trips to town to be not that frequent or necessary, they want joining games and finding your friends online and partying to be almost instantaneous, etc. They don't want the actual gameplay/combat to be a mad rush (d2 style), though.
In fact, they've often spoken about how they want to introduce more strategy and tactics. This will be done by health orbs, no/little leech, few healing pots, monster AI, etc.
Jay Wilson's favorite example is the Berserker monster, which has that huge hammer attack, which gets them stuck in the ground if they miss. The point is to force players to think for a second, to retreat, to dodge, and then to reward them for their skill by not bopping them on the head, and by giving them a fairly easy kill of the Berserker while its weapon is stuck.
Whether they'll fulfill this promise remains to be seen, but I don't think they've promised what you're saying they won't achieve. You're right, they won't, since it's not on their to-do list at all.
The "reward" for teamwork should be the fun it offers. It should increase your speed of progression through the game and offer the satisfaction and entertainment of working with others to complete a goal. That said the difficulty should be increased so as to have a suitable challenge for a party. That is to cater the difficulty level as if the players WERE playing as a team.
That said there should not be any artificial handicaps for solo players. If they join a multiplayer game to play single player, well although it doesn't make any sense, it is their choice.
Apocalypse
16-10-2008, 17:44
i think teamwork can and will be achieved but not on the level they want. i feel you will get a lot of people grouping with in the first month of launch. You will also have a lot of players who want to go through the content for the first time alone but will quickly group after they have done so. When D2 launched I found groups all the time, the solo play as it is now came much later and then lod hit and by then the already lower group counts were pretty much killed off unless you count 1 high level rushing 7 low levels grouping. So anyway I expect more grouping just not on the level they feel, you will still have a lot of solo players and in time the people who were grouping will revert back to pass worded games, eventually, imo anyway
i think flux answered the globe issue pretty well. i was in the group that saw globes as actually slowing the game down but i think i have a better understanding now.
I'd have to disagree with the thread starter, why play online then if you only want to play alone? -Go play the single player!
Is it better for some1 to steal your items all the time? - Thats not teamwork at all.
And yes, people do actually like teamwork and playing together for your information!
Starving_Poet
16-10-2008, 18:05
Teamwork noun (Tee-m-Wer-k):
The social construct in which others take responsibility for your success, and you take responsibility for others failures.
There's more than one definition for team work Starving_Poet :D (I can tell that your definition for it is self described because of your pronunciation)
I'm mainly talking about the problem for public games, that's why I include that part where you're playing with your friends.
After flux's post I understand the globe's real purpose now, it seemed like a vague explanation when Jay Wilson says "faster paced", well faster paced as in getting through the game faster?
Team work was never a true action in D2. If someone casts a buff, it's most likely that he needs to buff himself and you happened to get in the way. In MMO's, teamwork is more for raiding bosses so you have a better chance of finding good items for yourself, or gaining better exp. In FPS teamwork is mainly one guy using the other has a meat shield so he can get his kill.
The only time I've seen teamwork is level 1-30, everything else after that is just a "multiplayer solo".
Risingred
17-10-2008, 02:42
You don't have to port back to town for health globes.:thumbup:
Angel_of_Wrath
17-10-2008, 07:36
I think the individual loot drops and auto party system will lend itself to co-op play much more than you think.
My opinion is that they will have a much harder time implementing gold as the currency in D3 given the long-term bartering system in use. I think that's more of a challenge for the dev team than co-op, since Diablo inherently lends itself to effective co-op play. By breaking down some of the barriers it opens it up for people that may have been previously turned off.
Jay Wilson gave an example with the auto-party where when someone entered a game in D2, the first thing they do is spam PP to get in a party. They eliminated that. Along with ninja looting and pk / griefing, they've made it much more co-op friendly.
The globes... will have to wait and see more.
satheron
17-10-2008, 07:50
I have to disagree with your point about the face paced globes, I believe its a step in the right direction, with potions as a last resort.
I can see your argument about how it will slow down game play because in desperate situations you would have to slow down, and slowly pick monsters off until a monster dropped a globe.
I believe that potions with a cd will solve this issue, this is what their intention will be. Allowing you to kill monsters faster to continue on the globes.
Secondly we have a very important relation to note here.
Pace of combat vs. strategy, and using your head.
As pace of combat increases, and you blow through monsters quicker, game play is allowed to be more thoughtless.
If your put into situations where you can't just blow through an area, your forced to think around it, or take your time using more strategy to overcome the obstacle.
What blizzard is trying to do here it balance this slightly more to the side of fast paced.
And I don't believe I would consider Town portalling to down to refill on potions, and equipment repair while your friends keep blowing through monsters without you to be "fast paced" I actually find my time with vendors to be quite not so edge of my seat thing..I dunno thats just me.
Edit: plus there are tons of games out there that use this health globe system already, and it doesn't really slow down combat at all.
When you begin you feel yourself desperate you find yourself killing faster in the desperate situations, until you know you have to knowingly back off, and regroup your strategy, and if you planned ahead and have potions for these times, that is an option as well.
2. Fast pace by globes
D2 will be faster pace than D3 will ever be (at this point in time). In D2 if you're missing half of your party (assuming that everyone is in an act properly suited for their level) you'll manage fine, which leaves time for the other half of your teammate repot/repair/sell and people will usually tend to switch off every once in awhile. It's too obvious that the health/mana globe at this point will never EVER meet it's intended purpose, let me explain why: It's job is to keep combat fast pace, yet people will have to fight slowly and carefully if they want to survive and if they're in dire need of HP, they'll have to sit out a fight until a globe is dropped. IF the health globes were to drop more frequently to avoid this, then it's just the same thing as having potions.
i'm not going to touch on point 1 right now, but regarding point #2... i played the demo several times at blizzcon and the pace is very nice. i would honestly say it felt faster than d2. there were lots of mobs constantly being thrown at us, and with 4 of us partied and on screen there was a lot of chaos. very action packed and "fast". on top of that, the health globes really allowed us to push the action. after a large fight there were enough globes left to heal us up so we can push on.
in addition, the regen rates are greatly increased. this also adds to the pace of the game in that you really don't have much down time. by the time you run from one fight to the next, your globe is full and ready to go. all in all, the pace was great and it was NICE to not have to run to town every few minutes. we went through several floors and had almost zero downtime (other than when somebody levelled and wanted to read through their possible skill choices), and the thought of having to town didn't cross our minds.
edit: just wanted to add that blizzard has found a pretty nice balance. the pace is fast but, unlike in d2, you CAN'T just rush in and take on 30 mobs while chugging endless pots and come out alive. you do need to use your brain and strategy... but that doesn't detract from the pace. i personally found out to be a great balance of pace and strategy.
In the name of Zod
17-10-2008, 12:29
just wanted to add that blizzard has found a pretty nice balance. the pace is fast but, unlike in d2, you CAN'T just rush in and take on 30 mobs while chugging endless pots and come out alive. you do need to use your brain and strategy... but that doesn't detract from the pace. i personally found out to be a great balance of pace and strategy.
Excellent, remember though that no beta testing prepares a game for the populus :smug: we have a way of stuffing things up. Co-op play is always going to be a lowest common denominator issue of 'how low will you go to be one better than me'.
stillman
17-10-2008, 13:34
I agree with visom about the challenge of getting people to play together. I think the "promise" by Blizzard is more of a "hope".
That said, I think I have at least a partial solution. Blizzard needs to make some sort of friend-finding/friend-making sytem. I think it should work like a computerized dating/match-making system in some regards. So you go to this special board and click a bunch of boxes explaining the following:
how often you play and what hours of the day, your favorite class or 2, maybe the current build you are working on atm and his/her level, good manners expected yes or no, etc. There could also be a box where you type in your goals or why you want to play in a group, quests you need, rule systems you want to establish, etc.
So then a program lists a bunch of profiles of other players who match your goals or w/e.
This would eliminate a major problem imo: you make a friend only to find he is a dueler-only type of goon, so you go your separate ways because you never duel. Waste of time.
xenoterracide
17-10-2008, 16:05
just so long as having a party isn't a MUST. I'll be happy. I like the sounds of these changes especially only being able to get the loot I see. I get tired of not getting any from bosses in D2 because everyone else grabs it all.
the problem with it being a must is... what happens when you can't get a party together but want to play and don't want to wait? I've had many times where I'd have loved to have people in the room working together but none came.
also I hate when people highjack my game. I'm questing... all of a sudden there are 6 more people in the game going on an andy run and then a rush. which is not what I had started the game for.
I agree with visom about the challenge of getting people to play together. I think the "promise" by Blizzard is more of a "hope".
That said, I think I have at least a partial solution. Blizzard needs to make some sort of friend-finding/friend-making sytem. I think it should work like a computerized dating/match-making system in some regards. So you go to this special board and click a bunch of boxes explaining the following:
how often you play and what hours of the day, your favorite class or 2, maybe the current build you are working on atm and his/her level, good manners expected yes or no, etc. There could also be a box where you type in your goals or why you want to play in a group, quests you need, rule systems you want to establish, etc.
So then a program lists a bunch of profiles of other players who match your goals or w/e.
This would eliminate a major problem imo: you make a friend only to find he is a dueler-only type of goon, so you go your separate ways because you never duel. Waste of time.
Love the idea.
Send to Blizzard please.
:)
Robobaby
18-10-2008, 09:46
I'd have to disagree with the thread starter, why play online then if you only want to play alone? -Go play the single player!
Is it better for some1 to steal your items all the time? - Thats not teamwork at all.
And yes, people do actually like teamwork and playing together for your information!
Theres a difference between playing together and teamwork.
I play with people in d2 mainly so I have others to talk to or have a laugh with. I basically treat it like a chat channel whilst I'm doing tedious, repetitive actions which is what the majority of d2 comes down to. When push comes to shove though, the goal of play is self interested - you do it to gain exp or to get items (and hopefully snatch them before anyone else in your party can) etc.
Now you can have a party full of people with mutual self interests. i.e. 4 players in a game roughly at the same level wanting to get exp. Playing together is mutually beneficial to all players because each gets what they want - it yields more exp when theres more people in the game and many people will find it easier if they can get an enchant or BO or something. Basically, playing together in this example makes it quicker and easier for each individual play to get what they want. At the same time they can chat and have a laugh and it takes the sting out of the monotony by knowing there are others in the same boat. The goal is achievable individually even if it will be slower and more lonely with less opportunities for a joke or wisecrack.
Teamwork is a different concept. This would imply that there is a goal that is achievable only through the coordination of several people. Many games in the mould of Diablo do not facilitate or require good team work. Guild Wars was one of the few that did in specific PvE endgame dungeons like The Deep, Underworld and Domain of Anguish which in parts required very specific builds and sometimes required the party to split up and coordinate in 2 different parts of the map to even get through them.
In PvP teamwork is so important to your success on the ladder that it is almost inaccessible for new players and it shows in the total stagnation of the gvg ladder. You could never be good at PvP if you had 6 good players and 2 players that didn't know what they were doing. You couldn't ever realistically win a monthly automated tournament if one of your players didn't have Ventrillo or your vent coordination is poorly managed.
The group with very few exceptions was only ever as strong as its weakest link. I found both endgame PvE and PvP in Guild Wars to be extremely elitist, extremely selective and by and large inaccessible for many players. The only way you can impose this kind of requirement is if you make it extremely easy to form alliances and guilds in the game with likeminded people and make them easily contactable anywhere in the game, at any time.
Public play in Guild Wars is atrocious and brings out the absolute worst in the majority of the people that play it. You will get called a newb and worse, blamed for the failures of the team if your mistake is visible. You will get mocked by the other team most likely and you will spend FOREVER trying to get into a HA group that wont instantly dismiss you because you don't have a tiger rank emote.
After 2 years of on and off play and several splinter guilds later I realised that such strict team requirements sowed divisions in the people that I played with. Many of my former guildmates left to form their own serious PvP guild because some of us weren't serious enough I guess. I eventually had to go with them because my existing guild didn't have enough players to do anything anymore. That guild exploded because several officers (and key gvg players) thought the guild leader was a dramaqueen (which he undoubtedly was but I sort of thought it was funny). They went on to form a super elite guild that did actually place top 10 a few years ago but collapsed under vent rage and the inactivity of a few key players. We had PvE only splinter guilds. An endgame PvE only splinter guild. People just kept making more guilds to do what they individually wanted because all of us didn't want the same thing. Consequently, none of us were particularly good at anything in that game and many of our teams fell through due to ragequitters, lack of players willing to gvg or do an elite dungeon etc.
I found that Guild Wars required such a degree of teamwork that I spent more time looking for groups and building groups in towns that had a chance in hell of success than actually playing the game and it felt like a job except you never get paid.
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