View Full Version : It's too "WoW"
1) Inventory
2) Graphics too glowy
3) No stats
5) Bosses
6) Homogenized classes
7) Potions
8) The look of gear
9) dps, armor, mana regen, atk speed
Ok - I'm sure I will be blasted for this comment. But just for one second listen to reason: they have needlessly changed a LOT of stuff to be more like WoW, for better or for worse.
1) Inventory
2) Graphics too glowy
3) No stats
5) Bosses
6) Homogenized classes
7) Potions
8) The look of gear
9) dps, armor, mana regen, atk speed
Ok - I'm sure I will be blasted for this comment. But just for one second listen to reason: they have needlessly changed a LOT of stuff to be more like WoW, for better or for worse.
1. Good change. The tetris style is frusturating. A classic staple, but something that can be gone
2. Trust Blizzard when they say the game gets darker with time.
3. I agree, but again, there will be ways this can be fixed with items that give very large amounts of str.
4. you skipped this number, counting is fun.
5. You have not seen 1 act boss yet in action. The unique monsters are more visable and much more epic. how is this a bad thing?
the other ones are also changes for the better.
#9. is unreasonable. how is that like WoW and its not like D2?
TarnishedHope
14-10-2008, 00:15
No stats really bug the crap out of me. For me, absolute customization was the selling point.
Then again, Diablo 3 is no where near release, so I'll whine when the time comes.
Too dead horse. Too much WoW-phobia for features that will benefit the Diablo series and ARPG genre as a whole. Too much misinformation on what parts are WoW-clones, what part are derivatives.
This statement is brought to you by a person who was a hard-core Diablo fan since elementary school. And dislikes WoW.
PlasmaTorture
14-10-2008, 00:37
"2) Graphics too glowy"
Pre Blizzcon I would've agreed with you 100%, but have you watched the Wizard trailer? It's obvious that either they actually listened to all the complaints and made appropriate changes (although there's still a lack of corpses and blood stains), or they had just chosen a terrible location to show the game off to start with.
I think many people don't even realize why they dislike WOW. The REAL list of things that will start to worry me when they start popping up:
1: Treadmill gameplay. The constant changing of content/ artificial barriers/ planned obsolescence for older content. Bliz is constantly tripping over itself to stay a step ahead of raiders in WOW, and therefore casual gamers are stuck 10 steps behind raiding guilds, or Arena Grinding to get PVP gear. Why? Content is too easy. too predictable, not dynamic enough. Is it any coincidence that the first boss kill can take dozens of attempts, after that it's just farm the epics time? Which leads us too...
2: No death penalty. Encourages reckless play and rewards people who may be incautious or even incompetent players, but have more time to dedicate to relentlessly assaulting the same encounter repeatedly until the blunt force trauma caused by ramming their head into it reprograms their psyche in such a way that they become mindless drones who can complete it without thinking. We don't know if D3 has a sizable death penalty, but it can't be any smaller than WoWs. I hope.
3: Boring itemization. This is the area where D2 utterly annihilates WOW. D2 has literally dozens of stats which might be desirable for each class or subclass. WoW has... maybe 4? Examine items from pre-BC, compare them to items which come from the highest BC instances. Same item, higher stats. Another pair of rogue boots with massive AP, crit, and +stamina! AWESOME! Just like my old rogue boots with slightly less AP, crit, and stamina! Variety is substituting agility for AP at a 1:2 ratio. To make things worse, what are essentially the best, or usually tied for that title, items, are arranged into vanilla sets, so ordinary that they are not referred to by name but by NUMBER in increasing order of power. Bleh. I was somewhat reassured by the interview with Jay Wilson; while he seems somewhat clueless about what made certain aspects of D2 fun, he seems to have a fairly good handle on itemization.
4: Overbalanced classes. Thats right, too much balance. In WoW, there is no such thing as a cookie cutter build; there are builds that work and builds that don't. Usually there are a very small amount of builds that work, and any other option has been balanced out of existence by the game designers. This isn't the worst thing in the world in WOW, where one character is a huge investment of time, both leveling and gathering gear, but if this transfers to Diablo, where characters are essentially disposable, and making pseudo-viable builds with a fun playstyle is par for the course IMO, then a great deal of the fun of the game is lost. Personally I don't think that they will do this; they are already making a TON of fun looking skills that you could potentially build an entire character around, and I think that they will do a good job of providing lots and lots of variants on the same build. As long as they keep Blaze, Ill be happy.
In short, of 4 main concerns I have, Bliz so far has avoided to some extent, ,2,3, and 4. We don't have remotely enough information to judge 1, so that keeps them from a perfect score of avoiding WOW's faults (although they may mess it up in other ways). You share only one of those; homogenized classes. I don't know why you believe D3 classes are homogenized; I can't say it seems that way so far to me. Another concern of yours, the appearance of gear; well the gear did get fairly ludicrous in WoW, but that was far far from the worst problem so if that's the only complaint I have with d3 I'll be thankful.
ohnoyellowdinosaur
14-10-2008, 01:12
1. Good change. The tetris style is frusturating. A classic staple, but something that can be gone
2. Trust Blizzard when they say the game gets darker with time.
3. I agree, but again, there will be ways this can be fixed with items that give very large amounts of str.
4. you skipped this number, counting is fun.
5. You have not seen 1 act boss yet in action. The unique monsters are more visable and much more epic. how is this a bad thing?
the other ones are also changes for the better.
#9. is unreasonable. how is that like WoW and its not like D2?
These are all aesthetics things, though. Not something that can be inherently better. Why do people always try and argue so hard against the people who say they don't like the changes that they've seen with Diablo?
This statement is brought to you by a person who was a hard-core Diablo fan since elementary school. And dislikes WoW.
qft
1) Inventory
2) Graphics too glowy
3) No stats
5) Bosses
6) Homogenized classes
7) Potions
8) The look of gear
9) dps, armor, mana regen, atk speed
1) Look, the new bag system isn't ANYTHING like WoW. Bags only add a few overall slots to your main inventory "pool" of slots, you don't actually click and sort through different bags.
2) The sands around Lut Gholein were pretty bright and glowy, too. People who are still complaining about the "colors" of D3 haven't seen anything of substance yet, and believe me, this game is gritty as hell.
3) I'll give you this one, but then again how can you say that's "like WoW" and not like a thousand other RPGs that do the same thing? Besides I've stated in another thread why I think this is a good change.
5) I'm pretty sure that every game you ever played had a boss, except maybe checkers. WoW was not the first game to have boss fights, and if the boss fight against the Skeleton King at the Blizzcon demo was any indication, boss fights are going to be SWEET.
7) I'm sorry, when did WoW mobs drop potion orbs that healed you on the spot? I was initially very hesitant about this change to D3's gameplay, but it actually makes the fights more intense. Previous Diablo games should have been called "Potion Management" with all the stocking and spamming going on. You can still stock up here, but it's a lot harder to do with the rarity of pot drops. This is the best change in the game so far, but again I ask how is this system even remotely similar to WoW?
8) How much of the gear have you actually seen? I never saw a Tier 6 barb nor one Thunderfury in any of the demos or screenshots.
9) You can't compare a point-and-click ARPG to an MMO in terms of attack speed, man. You just can't. They are nothing alike.
Sein Schatten
14-10-2008, 02:28
Too dead horse. Too much WoW-phobia for features that will benefit the Diablo series and ARPG genre as a whole. Too much misinformation on what parts are WoW-clones, what part are derivatives.
Agreed. I really hate this wowish crap with a passion by now... It is like people can't form a coherent argument without "too wowish"...
You do know that stat "customization" is basically having the same, generic build as everyone else?
Agreed. I really hate this wowish crap with a passion by now... It is like people can't form a coherent argument without "too wowish"...
Wow casts a large shadow, for good or bad; any game in any genre related to it must learn from it's mistakes and profit from its successes.
PlasmaTorture
14-10-2008, 03:10
1) Look, the new bag system isn't ANYTHING like WoW. Bags only add a few overall slots to your main inventory "pool" of slots, you don't actually click and sort through different bags.
It is WoW's system with an AllinOneInventory mod. There's no debating that, because they are the exact same system. I think it's a bad change as I love the draconic grid, but I can live without it.
2) The sands around Lut Gholein were pretty bright and glowy, too. People who are still complaining about the "colors" of D3 haven't seen anything of substance yet, and believe me, this game is gritty as hell.
Lut Gholein was also falling apart, there were desecrated statues and ruins and stuff everywhere. Just because the environment was physically bright does not mean it wasn't an emotionally and atmospherically dark place. I wish people could get this through their heads. Diablo 3 seems to be going the right path but they (so far!) have completley faield in terms of doodads and whatnot to convey a real dark sense. Lighting is fine, they just chose a bad dungeon to announce the game with.
5) I'm pretty sure that every game you ever played had a boss, except maybe checkers.
Aren't kings like bosses? ;)
8) How much of the gear have you actually seen? I never saw a Tier 6 barb nor one Thunderfury in any of the demos or screenshots.
It's the huge pauldrons. If the pauldrons weren't ridiculously oversized, they gear would look fine. You know what other game had ridiculous pauldrons? Oh, right, WoW. Don't Rogues have a pair that has fishtanks of blood in them? That's, for lack of a better way to put it, completley retarded. I haven't seen it yet in Diablo 3, but if it does I'm going to be awfully, awfully dissapointed.
1) Inventory
Ehrm... WoW was not the first game to have such an inventory kid... actually D2's inventory only special thing was the tetris system, which was great for many and horrible for others; this won't change the gameplay so much
2) Graphics too glowy
Compare:
D2: http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2001/pc/rpg/diablo2x/diablo2x_070201_screen007.jpg D3: http://www.blizzard.com/diablo3/_images/screenshots/ss59-hires.jpg
D2: http://images.5star-network.com/screenshots/large/d/i/diablo2.jpg D3: http://www.blizzard.com/diablo3/_images/screenshots/ss46-hires.jpg
And now look to WoW: http://hegemonia.files.wordpress.com/2006/11/wow.jpg and http://www.robertoherrero.net/images/world-of-warcraft.jpg
Either I am completely blind, or there is no real point of comparison between those.
3) No statsYeah, wow was the first game to have auto-stats.. I mean, good ol' nintendo rpg's didn't have this such as Terranigma or others, right?
Just saying it's not wowish at all... And anyways it probably isn't that bad, after all if you tried to max your little sorceress in strenght she wouldn't be able to do actually anything, so you were forced to build intelligence on her anyways.
5) Bosses!!!!????. Hmnn, wasn't The Smith on Act 1 a boss, or Blood Raven, or the Summoner, etc?
6) Homogenized classesSorry for my ignorance, but, huh? What do you mean with that?
If you mean that all classes are similar, then my friend you can't be more wrong.The 3 classes we have seen are terribly different, in fact in D2 classes were a lot more similar than in D3.
7) PotionsSo, WoW has something similar to Health or Mana Orbs, I didn't know that... it ain't a bad change either.
8) The look of gearLook: http://www.michaeldashow.com/games/barbarian_thumb.jpg and http://www.thanatosrealms.com/diablo2/pictures/necromancer/render01.jpg
I mean, aren't those pauldrons huge!!!?
Elric-Logain
14-10-2008, 04:34
People have selective memories about these things.
Oh, tell me. I brought up the shoulder pad counter-argument, with pictures, like months ago. I got a response that bickered over something that was a 10% size difference as "crossing the line."
Diablo 3 seems to be going the right path but they (so far!) have completley faield in terms of doodads and whatnot to convey a real dark sense.
Less than a minute into the Blizzcon demo, you walk through a ruined, shattered Tristram. As you walk through the falling wreckage of buildings (one in particular being Griswold's old shop) there is a man hanging out the door of a basement cellar with weird light spilling from inside. As soon as you walk near him he starts screaming, and is immediately pulled by something into the cellar and out of sight. About a second later a tidal wave of blood flies out from the cellar door as the lights go out, his screams still hanging in the air.
Who needs doodads? This game is amazing.
1) Inventory
2) Graphics too glowy
3) No stats
5) Bosses
6) Homogenized classes
7) Potions
8) The look of gear
9) dps, armor, mana regen, atk speed
Ok - I'm sure I will be blasted for this comment. But just for one second listen to reason: they have needlessly changed a LOT of stuff to be more like WoW, for better or for worse.
1) Inventory is fine. I hate D2 inventory. So anything new is fine.
2) Well reading the reports from Demo players, they said the graphics are great. Gritty and dark from some parts and some parts a bit glowy etc.
3) I'm not too worried about the stats. Itemization will probably work it out for us. Having different choices if you want different attributes, which leads to different outfits on players. And about those weird variant builds, well too bad but it doesn't concern me since I don't make those.
5) D2 had bosses. They were just too damn simple. Now we have some nice abilities on them and they really look like bosses.
6) Imo the 3 classes we have now seen are very different in every aspect.
7) Potions? The new way of dealing with potion healing is great and improves the gameplay.
8) Look of the gear? haha so you have already seen all the gear in the game?
9) Dps, armor, mana regen, atk speed. Well sorry to say these were in D2 also. Attack speed was in stupid break points. I rather want to see the actual speed of my swing directly in game and not calculate all the IAS I have and then check some table if I get the break point. Mana regen has always been there.. warmth, magefists, that belongs RPG games. Dps? Well even that was in D2 basically. If you counted your average damage and swings per second.. But in D3 you can see that directly.. hey why not. Armor was defense etc..
Stupid wow comparisons. They have said they got influences from wow and also some other games. So if they admit it why do you have to tell it again? We already know that they are getting the good parts from many games and also adding something new.
The game looks awesome and no matter where they rip the features into that game, all that matters is how they put them together. So far it looks amazing.
Sigh.
I don't know when the hysteria started about D3 being too much like WoW.
I've played WoW and D2 for several years, and it's pretty obvious that WoW is like a sequel to D2 but in the Warcraft universe and online. All the stats, skills and character growth is pretty much equal in D2 and WoW, though WoW has it's changes with all the raiding and so on.
I'm not saying that WoW is the best game ever (though it's a good and balanced game), I'm just saying that WoW is a good point to start from if you want to make a balanced, easy-to-use game and the depth to keep hardcore-players interested.
I love the thought of the one-slot-per-item inventory, the skill-trees, the auto-assigning of the stats and so on. (makes the game so much more easier for them to balance and the player has less chance of actually failing to make a charcater by putting the wrong set of stats on the wrong stat, if you know what I mean.)
Games got to evolve. I would not like the thought of D3 being a clone of D2 but with better graphics and I don't think Blizzard want it to be that way. They learn stuff from every game and bring the good stuff over to their new projects.
Just drop the "TOO MUCH LIKE WOW OMG WORSZT GAEM EVER!!11" crap.
Seriously.
From the standpoint of someone who isn't biased to either side, there's obviously a lot of things in D3 that have been taken from WoW, and in a lot of respects that's not a bad thing at all.
WoW is a very polished game, and the more the player knows about their character the better. The inclusion of "Damage per second" tooltips, the user interface, and other things like "Dodge chance", "Spell damage bonus", "Physical damage reduction" etc. are additions that by no means have a negative effect on the game, even if they are inspired by WoW.
At the same time, there are a couple of things that were completely unnecessary to carry through from WoW, like the bag system. I don't see any point in it at all. If it's not beneficial to use something from WoW they shouldn't do it at all. And that's pretty much what it comes down to. The bag system is unnecessary .
Even the removal of the grid system, I think, was a bad idea. It was kind of a trademark of the Diablo series and I don't think there were enough problems with it to justify scrapping it completely. Sure it was inefficient to fill your bags with polearms when you could fill it with 3 slot staves that sold for the same price, but I don't think that warrants changing the system altogether.
johntorrio
14-10-2008, 12:16
dont like it dont buy the game.
The UI, like the game, is friendlier. Not exactly what I would expect when the content is the hordes of hell.
Pitboss_2000
14-10-2008, 12:37
Lut Gholein was also falling apart, there were desecrated statues and ruins and stuff everywhere. Just because the environment was physically bright does not mean it wasn't an emotionally and atmospherically dark place.
It looked like an archeology field trip, the desert around LG was in no way 'emotionally and atmospherically dark' to me.
Apocalypse
14-10-2008, 14:03
this is really getting old, bliz has made tons and tons of cash from wow didnt you expect some level of influence because of this? most of the changes are for the better imo anyway, the only two i am against right now is no stats and respec, and i am coming around on the respec issue
Sein Schatten
14-10-2008, 14:12
Wow casts a large shadow, for good or bad; any game in any genre related to it must learn from it's mistakes and profit from its successes.
Bold: And that is retarded but I guess people are generally not the most smartest creatures, aight? ;) :P
ZSiegfried
14-10-2008, 14:14
I haven't really played WoW, I am a Diablo man through and through, so my opinion is negligible but from what I have seen is that WoW also "borrowed" a lot of elements from Diablo so it's normal that Diablo III will "borrow" some elements as well... Some elements may even be "borrowed" back...
I honestly think that people should get over this issue... Why cut off your nose to spite your face? If it improves gameplay, why leave it out? Because WoW did it? Don't be ridiculous. But in the wise words of Jay Wilson : ”That being said” I want Diablo to stay true to itself...
That’s my two cents worth, feel free to disagree...
Bold: And that is retarded but I guess people are generally not the most smartest creatures, aight? ;) :P
If you're saying that the success of WoW provides a safe business model for online games and may stifle innovation for years by squashing new and untested ideas, then yes, I agree. On the other hand, it has brought the concept of the MMO mainstream in a way that was completely unprecedented before, so in the long term it's probably a good thing, because game designers now have a model for casual-friendly games which are fun to play for just about anyone.
You do know that stat "customization" is basically having the same, generic build as everyone else?
Your statement, while true, is based on information made public of a game whose features are yet only partially known. In other words, you can't come to the conclusion that everyone will have the same build until we know the full features, etc. I'm sure blizzards has some tricks up its sleeve that'll make it cool regardless of stats customization or not...
I am glad it sparked discussion, but I wish I didn't have to spell things out for some people. I am making a comparison to WoW so for example when I say "Bosses" yeah lots of games have bosses but the style of boss fight in D3 is as much wow as it is D2 and they even kinda look like wow. The skeleton king even wields the wow pvp hammer. So anyways, to clarify something I am making comparisons to WOW, not all games in general.
1) Inventory
- same as wow
2) Graphics too glowy
- everything glows pretty colors, just like wow
3) No stats
- same as wow
5) Bosses
- same look, same kind of "prgression" battles
6) Homogenized classes
- I won't get into this one for lack of proof, but we'll see what happens when we get more info.
7) Potions
- i like how everybody starts talking about health globes. Ok listen when the heck did i mention health globes? I said potions. it is similar to wow because wow isn't a pot guzzling game, it's pots as emergencies and on a cool down so you don't chain drink. Same as wow.
8) The look of gear
- immensely detailed, huge shoulders, and the look is very similar. that's all...D1/D2 had armour that looked more ...um...like real armour.
9) dps, armor, mana regen, atk speed
- the wording of things has become very similar (and same in some ways) to wow verbage.
Yes I feel people can argue "it's not the same at all!!!" but I never said it was, I just feel it's becoming more and more wow-ish (NOT EXACTLY THE SAME) with every bit of info we are getting.
Anyways, it got discussion so it appears some people think it warrants enough discussion to feel the need to provide proof. I wager people know that it's becoming wow-ish and are arguing more in the hopes that it won't become that way.
Edit:
I would just like to add that half of the arguments are not against the fact it's wow-like in nature but rather that it's for the best.
I guess that's an argument I can accept and it's certainly a debatable topic. I love WoW, I would just hate to buy D3 and think "been there, doen that but on WoW" once I played it for a bit. I certainly do not like some of the changes to make it more like WoW when they aren't needed (stats, armour graphics, combat toolbar data, pots, everything glows, bag system).
mince pies
14-10-2008, 19:57
Quote:
5) I'm pretty sure that every game you ever played had a boss, except maybe checkers.
Aren't kings like bosses?
That's in chess
Yes I feel people can argue "it's not the same at all!!!" but I never said it was, I just feel it's becoming more and more wow-ish (NOT EXACTLY THE SAME) with every bit of info we are getting.
Personally, I think this is more a case of that phenomenon where you get a word stuck in your head, then all of a sudden you feel like you hear that word everywhere. You get an image (in this case, of WoW) in your head, and all of a sudden you see similarities everywhere. Justified or not, you put them together because for whatever reason you want to see similarities so you do.
Pitboss_2000
14-10-2008, 20:08
1. Diablo II inventory sucked, although it was challenging to carry as much stuff around as possible. But come on, six chipped gems take up as much space as a full plate mail?
2. Not from what I've seen in the Wizard demo
3. As has been said, all my chars (including full catsres) have base energy and the same old enough-STR-for-gear, everything-in-VIT distribution. It would have made a difference if a barbarian had to have at least 80 hard points in DEX before he could use Whirlwind (for instance), but now it;s all the same anyway.
5. I don't know what you mean with 'progressed battle'. :( (I haven't seen the skeleton king vid yet, IF it's around.
7. That's 100% a good thing
8. Diablo II was a 640 x 480 game, there was no way they could make gear detailed. Now, the only way you can recognize Tal rasha's armor is due to the hideous purple colour.
9. If it works in WoW, it's fine with me. I'd rather see a pop-up with the DPS (which is what you're interested in anyway) instead of the very unclear 'fast attack speed'.
Personally, I think this is more a case of that phenomenon where you get a word stuck in your head, then all of a sudden you feel like you hear that word everywhere. You get an image (in this case, of WoW) in your head, and all of a sudden you see similarities everywhere. Justified or not, you put them together because for whatever reason you want to see similarities so you do.
It's not like we are comparing D3 with Grand Theft Auto - it's WoW - they make both games. So it's a little hard to swallow when you say "the smilarities are just coincidence".
PlasmaTorture
14-10-2008, 21:36
That's in chess
Have you even played checkers? I seriously don't know how to respond to this.
ZSiegfried
14-10-2008, 22:28
Personally, I think this is more a case of that phenomenon where you get a word stuck in your head, then all of a sudden you feel like you hear that word everywhere. You get an image (in this case, of WoW) in your head, and all of a sudden you see similarities everywhere. Justified or not, you put them together because for whatever reason you want to see similarities so you do.
I agree to an extent, this is a weird combination of the number 23 phenomenon and the power of suggestion... I also think that to an extent its self-fulfilling prophecy (the pshycological definition,I know that sounds weird but wiki it (as in the original wikipedia) and it will make more sense.) :coffee:
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