IcyYou
12-10-2008, 09:31
Before I even get started, I'm not making a post whining about the change to attributes, I'm simply stating some serious concerns after hearing about this new mechanic while trying to keep an objective point of view.
I apologize in advance for the giant wall of text, but please take the time to read through and contribute to this thread if the recent news of stat auto-allocation is important to you!
This thread was reiterated from battle.net (same person, different account name) and posted here to help inform the community of the problem so members of multiple communities could form objective points of view on this subject and see both sides of the argument, but more importantly, to help find a middle ground where EVERYONE will be satisfied, including the developers!
http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=10972021570&sid=3000&pageNo=1
Lets start on a positive note.
Jay Wilson, according to the interview, stated that this helps development on items as they will be able to predict the attributes of characters at certain levels and it puts more emphasis on items giving stat points for your attribute customization.
It takes away the necessity for level requirements.There were plenty of times when, in D2, you found a decent item that was useful immediately, but you'd be neglecting your Str and, even though you met the level requirements, you couldn't use it. By the time you gained enough levels and earned enough points to use it, the item was already obsolete. That's what they really want to avoid: the player missing out on a bunch of immediately useful items just because they'd been neglecting a stat.
Instead of adding level requirements to items, they'll just require X amount of a certain stat. Because all Barbs will, for example, hit 52 Str by level 20, they'll be able to use it then, whereas Witch Doctors and Wizards will need to wait until 25 or 30 before they have enough Str to use it.
It shifts focus from attributes to skills in character customization.
I can't think of anything else that could be considered positive, so lets go to the theoretical negatives.
I'm going to be referring to pre-LoD when referring to Diablo2 game play, because essentially with the onset of runewords, and the anni/torch, attributes became obsolete and were generic over ALL character classes. (min str, no mana, all vita, maybe some dex) However, pre-patch and pre-LoD attributes were a key part of character customization as you could build a sorc that focused on energy shield, which meant almost all mana and minimal vitality. (it was OP, but that's not the point) You could also make a melee sorc, where it was viable in early patches as game balance wasn't based on LoD itemization, which meant, for this build, crazy str/dex+vita which doesn't happen anymore. This is something that a lot of people aren't taking into consideration! Attributes became a broken mechanic after the LoD, it was far more useful pre-expansion and has a lot of room to be reiterated and applied to Diablo3 in a new and compelling way! Anyways, back to the analyzing.
- The first problem that comes to mind is character customization is exactly what made Diablo3's predecessors successful, and that's what is being hurt by the implementation of this mechanic as it takes away control from the player, essentially, dictating how they will develop their character. It was that aspect that had players coming back again and again over the years just to make a new build or try out something new and attributes were a BIG part of that.
- The other aspect that quickly becomes apparent is the limitations of itemization for characters to use. What I mean is, because characters have pre-planned stats that when you reach the highest level, there will be item types that your character might not be able to use.
Hypothetical example; I think we can be fairly certain that the Wizard isn't going to be a strength based character by any means. If this is the case, late game, can we hope to be able to use upper tier heavy armor? If there is an item that might significantly benefit a build but is unusable due to pre-allocated stat limitations, that is going to be severely detrimental to the game experience.
It seems like a minor thing, maybe, but it has the potential to be a HUGE part of the game.
Other negatives that come to mind include, as stated before, an oversimplified experience taking away from one of the Diablo franchises greatest redeeming qualities.
By shifting itemization focus slightly from more unique and compelling stats like +skills, crushing blow, open wounds, resists, faster cast rate, etc, it puts too much emphasis on stats, as they were already important in itemization before pre-allocated stats.
The last thing that comes to mind is it creates a world of mediocrity within the base of each character. When all characters have a base that is identical to all characters of the same class, it's like running around with a bunch of clones where the only thing separating you from your playmates is the armor you're wearing and the skills you're using.
With all that said, I think, despite my clear bias against the mechanic, there is merit in both aspects. If there wasn't, the development team wouldn't be using it right now.
The key thing is there must be some level of customization for stats as, after reading about the enchant skill for the Wizard, I personally want to make a melee Wizard with Slow time and teleport (striking runes and all that jazz). However the fact that my character might not have enough strength to use equipment that would ultimately make the class viable or representative to the image I want to portray, it becomes very apparent that this mechanic is of major concern for those, like me, that will want to explore obscure and abstract builds.
A compromise would be the best way to go I think. Complete control ultimately ends up with generic cookie cutter formulas for character building (as was evident in Diablo2:LoD) if done poorly and absolutely no control will most likely end up taking away from the versatility of character customization and the overall Diablo experience.
What that compromise is? I don't know, I'm no developer or programmer. I just hope the development finds some sort of middle ground.
Mentioned possible solutions/compromises
Splitting auto allocated points and allocatable points upon level up.
This is the best of the compromises presented so far. In fact, I think it could work even better then Diablo2's stat allocation system that gave players total freedom.
If we want to look at why this mechanic we first have to know the numbers in play;
In Diablo2 you got 5 points per level and leveled up 98 times (Starting at level 1 meant you didn't gain any stats for that level and 99 is the max: 99-1=98 total levels gained) therefore you you gained a total of 490 stat points by leveling up + 5 for each of the Lam Esens Tome quest in Normal/Nightmare/Hell difficulties.
Which means in Diablo2 you got a total of 505 points to distribute as you saw fit.
Now in Diablo3, we know you will be able to level up to 100, so that's one more set of 5 points we can give to the total stat pool in Diablo3's endgame.
So, aside from quests, we currently know there will be 495 points in Diablo3 assuming each level similarly distributes 5 stat points like in Diablo2.
Before I get into how dividing the points effects the stat allocation mechanic for the better, I will reiterate what the development team has stated is their reason for implementing this mechanic.
- They want to regulate stat allocation so that they can organize itemization based on predicted class level restrictions and base stat projections.
(basically what it boils down to.)
So, by splitting up stat points per level, here's what happens:
When you give a player 2 points to allocate per level it accumulates to 198 total points to spend wherever you want end game which is MORE then enough to customize your character and make up for any lack of a stat that may occur as a result of the automatic stat allocation. This leaves the development team 297 points to distribute and give them a very solid base for class predictions and itemization organization. REMEMBER, there will most likely be quests similar to Lam Esens Tome that will give you stats to distribute so I doubt 198 would be a problem. You can probably expect the number to be closer to 220 or 225 roughly.
OR
When you give a player 3 points to allocate per level it turns into 297 points to place as you see fit. Now, this still leaves 198 points for the blizzard staff to place under the guidelines of the auto-allocation system giving them a base to project what minimum there will be within the community regarding stats. However it is not quite as effective as the 2/3 ratio stated above.
This system would actually give the development team even MORE room to create compelling itemization options within the game as, by giving them a base, they can further expand on their knowledge of the possible items by knowing how far to raise or lower requirements based on what limitations already exist within the class bases which would similarly give players more options for creating unique and interesting builds that otherwise wouldn't be possible.
Personally, I would see the implementation of this mechanic (either 2/3 or 3/2 stat points) as a major step in the right direction and a positive iteration on the Diablo2 stat allocation system.
Quest rewards that would give you stat points.
Quests like Lam Esem's tome would be nice; you would need quite a few of these quests, though, to make it worthwhile being able to spend points where you wanted to.
Currently I would imagine this is already implemented however as a singular way to customize characters statistics I do not believe it would be enough. Only because a character with a sever detriment to a particular stat probably won't be able to make up for that disadvantage through quest stats alone, and if it did become a common reward, one could argue that it would give the game a feeling of mediocrity in that too many quests would give this reward if it was to be made viable. I believe 2-3 quests can be expected (not including Normal/Nightmare/Hell, so a total of 6-9 skill quests estimated) roughly given the projected quest prediction (I think they said something like 12 or so quests per act, give or take a few? Can't remember where, I'll have to source it later.)
To simply reiterate the stat allocation system by giving more compelling attribute effects to stat points to give players more incentive to place points in different statistics.
This is something I hope they do regardless of whatever system they settle on.
Personally, I am against the current build and hope they give the player more control over stat allocation in future builds.
Feel free to discuss your concerns here if I forgot to mention anything but this thread is created for searching for a compromise as I believe, given the effect of the art controversy petition and it's utter lack of effect, that is the best thing we can hope for IF we can suggest solutions instead of simply complaining concerning aspects we disagree with.
Also, feel free to offer an objective opinion and discuss currently suggested compromises.
I apologize in advance for the giant wall of text, but please take the time to read through and contribute to this thread if the recent news of stat auto-allocation is important to you!
This thread was reiterated from battle.net (same person, different account name) and posted here to help inform the community of the problem so members of multiple communities could form objective points of view on this subject and see both sides of the argument, but more importantly, to help find a middle ground where EVERYONE will be satisfied, including the developers!
http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=10972021570&sid=3000&pageNo=1
Lets start on a positive note.
Jay Wilson, according to the interview, stated that this helps development on items as they will be able to predict the attributes of characters at certain levels and it puts more emphasis on items giving stat points for your attribute customization.
It takes away the necessity for level requirements.There were plenty of times when, in D2, you found a decent item that was useful immediately, but you'd be neglecting your Str and, even though you met the level requirements, you couldn't use it. By the time you gained enough levels and earned enough points to use it, the item was already obsolete. That's what they really want to avoid: the player missing out on a bunch of immediately useful items just because they'd been neglecting a stat.
Instead of adding level requirements to items, they'll just require X amount of a certain stat. Because all Barbs will, for example, hit 52 Str by level 20, they'll be able to use it then, whereas Witch Doctors and Wizards will need to wait until 25 or 30 before they have enough Str to use it.
It shifts focus from attributes to skills in character customization.
I can't think of anything else that could be considered positive, so lets go to the theoretical negatives.
I'm going to be referring to pre-LoD when referring to Diablo2 game play, because essentially with the onset of runewords, and the anni/torch, attributes became obsolete and were generic over ALL character classes. (min str, no mana, all vita, maybe some dex) However, pre-patch and pre-LoD attributes were a key part of character customization as you could build a sorc that focused on energy shield, which meant almost all mana and minimal vitality. (it was OP, but that's not the point) You could also make a melee sorc, where it was viable in early patches as game balance wasn't based on LoD itemization, which meant, for this build, crazy str/dex+vita which doesn't happen anymore. This is something that a lot of people aren't taking into consideration! Attributes became a broken mechanic after the LoD, it was far more useful pre-expansion and has a lot of room to be reiterated and applied to Diablo3 in a new and compelling way! Anyways, back to the analyzing.
- The first problem that comes to mind is character customization is exactly what made Diablo3's predecessors successful, and that's what is being hurt by the implementation of this mechanic as it takes away control from the player, essentially, dictating how they will develop their character. It was that aspect that had players coming back again and again over the years just to make a new build or try out something new and attributes were a BIG part of that.
- The other aspect that quickly becomes apparent is the limitations of itemization for characters to use. What I mean is, because characters have pre-planned stats that when you reach the highest level, there will be item types that your character might not be able to use.
Hypothetical example; I think we can be fairly certain that the Wizard isn't going to be a strength based character by any means. If this is the case, late game, can we hope to be able to use upper tier heavy armor? If there is an item that might significantly benefit a build but is unusable due to pre-allocated stat limitations, that is going to be severely detrimental to the game experience.
It seems like a minor thing, maybe, but it has the potential to be a HUGE part of the game.
Other negatives that come to mind include, as stated before, an oversimplified experience taking away from one of the Diablo franchises greatest redeeming qualities.
By shifting itemization focus slightly from more unique and compelling stats like +skills, crushing blow, open wounds, resists, faster cast rate, etc, it puts too much emphasis on stats, as they were already important in itemization before pre-allocated stats.
The last thing that comes to mind is it creates a world of mediocrity within the base of each character. When all characters have a base that is identical to all characters of the same class, it's like running around with a bunch of clones where the only thing separating you from your playmates is the armor you're wearing and the skills you're using.
With all that said, I think, despite my clear bias against the mechanic, there is merit in both aspects. If there wasn't, the development team wouldn't be using it right now.
The key thing is there must be some level of customization for stats as, after reading about the enchant skill for the Wizard, I personally want to make a melee Wizard with Slow time and teleport (striking runes and all that jazz). However the fact that my character might not have enough strength to use equipment that would ultimately make the class viable or representative to the image I want to portray, it becomes very apparent that this mechanic is of major concern for those, like me, that will want to explore obscure and abstract builds.
A compromise would be the best way to go I think. Complete control ultimately ends up with generic cookie cutter formulas for character building (as was evident in Diablo2:LoD) if done poorly and absolutely no control will most likely end up taking away from the versatility of character customization and the overall Diablo experience.
What that compromise is? I don't know, I'm no developer or programmer. I just hope the development finds some sort of middle ground.
Mentioned possible solutions/compromises
Splitting auto allocated points and allocatable points upon level up.
This is the best of the compromises presented so far. In fact, I think it could work even better then Diablo2's stat allocation system that gave players total freedom.
If we want to look at why this mechanic we first have to know the numbers in play;
In Diablo2 you got 5 points per level and leveled up 98 times (Starting at level 1 meant you didn't gain any stats for that level and 99 is the max: 99-1=98 total levels gained) therefore you you gained a total of 490 stat points by leveling up + 5 for each of the Lam Esens Tome quest in Normal/Nightmare/Hell difficulties.
Which means in Diablo2 you got a total of 505 points to distribute as you saw fit.
Now in Diablo3, we know you will be able to level up to 100, so that's one more set of 5 points we can give to the total stat pool in Diablo3's endgame.
So, aside from quests, we currently know there will be 495 points in Diablo3 assuming each level similarly distributes 5 stat points like in Diablo2.
Before I get into how dividing the points effects the stat allocation mechanic for the better, I will reiterate what the development team has stated is their reason for implementing this mechanic.
- They want to regulate stat allocation so that they can organize itemization based on predicted class level restrictions and base stat projections.
(basically what it boils down to.)
So, by splitting up stat points per level, here's what happens:
When you give a player 2 points to allocate per level it accumulates to 198 total points to spend wherever you want end game which is MORE then enough to customize your character and make up for any lack of a stat that may occur as a result of the automatic stat allocation. This leaves the development team 297 points to distribute and give them a very solid base for class predictions and itemization organization. REMEMBER, there will most likely be quests similar to Lam Esens Tome that will give you stats to distribute so I doubt 198 would be a problem. You can probably expect the number to be closer to 220 or 225 roughly.
OR
When you give a player 3 points to allocate per level it turns into 297 points to place as you see fit. Now, this still leaves 198 points for the blizzard staff to place under the guidelines of the auto-allocation system giving them a base to project what minimum there will be within the community regarding stats. However it is not quite as effective as the 2/3 ratio stated above.
This system would actually give the development team even MORE room to create compelling itemization options within the game as, by giving them a base, they can further expand on their knowledge of the possible items by knowing how far to raise or lower requirements based on what limitations already exist within the class bases which would similarly give players more options for creating unique and interesting builds that otherwise wouldn't be possible.
Personally, I would see the implementation of this mechanic (either 2/3 or 3/2 stat points) as a major step in the right direction and a positive iteration on the Diablo2 stat allocation system.
Quest rewards that would give you stat points.
Quests like Lam Esem's tome would be nice; you would need quite a few of these quests, though, to make it worthwhile being able to spend points where you wanted to.
Currently I would imagine this is already implemented however as a singular way to customize characters statistics I do not believe it would be enough. Only because a character with a sever detriment to a particular stat probably won't be able to make up for that disadvantage through quest stats alone, and if it did become a common reward, one could argue that it would give the game a feeling of mediocrity in that too many quests would give this reward if it was to be made viable. I believe 2-3 quests can be expected (not including Normal/Nightmare/Hell, so a total of 6-9 skill quests estimated) roughly given the projected quest prediction (I think they said something like 12 or so quests per act, give or take a few? Can't remember where, I'll have to source it later.)
To simply reiterate the stat allocation system by giving more compelling attribute effects to stat points to give players more incentive to place points in different statistics.
This is something I hope they do regardless of whatever system they settle on.
Personally, I am against the current build and hope they give the player more control over stat allocation in future builds.
Feel free to discuss your concerns here if I forgot to mention anything but this thread is created for searching for a compromise as I believe, given the effect of the art controversy petition and it's utter lack of effect, that is the best thing we can hope for IF we can suggest solutions instead of simply complaining concerning aspects we disagree with.
Also, feel free to offer an objective opinion and discuss currently suggested compromises.