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Flux here:
Just got out of an interview with Jay Wilson, and he surprised us with one thing. Attribute points are not player-assignable in D3. They're not in the blizzcon build, but we thought that was just to simplify things for new players at the show. Jay says no, that's how it is in the game now. His explanation was that it makes items even more important, and that it lets the designers plan a bit better (they can assume players will have at least X in each stat by a given level). You still get attributes, and they will still be required for equipment use (edit: the underlined part is wrong: there are no attribute reqs for equipment in d3, just clvl and some class-specific), but they are automatically assigned each level up. Thus every Wizard will have the same base str/vit/dex/etc as every other Wizard of the same level. Same for the Barb and WD.
I predicted that this would result in a great outcry, most of it not happy. You guys are free to prove me right or wrong.
We'll have more from the interview shortly, and will post video of it later today.
All happy here. It prevents a lot of problems cropping up but how many more it will create...
AgentMarth
11-10-2008, 20:42
So no more:
Str for items
Dex for items
No energy
Rest in Vita
Sounds fine to me. D2 gets to the point were you basically just put 95% of your points into Vita anyways on 95% of builds, so I don't really care either way.
Omikron8
11-10-2008, 21:17
this change was beyond stupid
instead of giving worthwhile secondary bonuses to stats such as spell damage for intelligence/energy (look at titan quest) they just remove stat customization entirely
so essentially now
1) Diablo 3 is more like WoW gameplay
2) Diablo 3 is even more item focused than diablo 2
3) Non-caster builds for casters/summoners won't exist because your str/dex/vit/life/whatever will be crap
you want to have a melee witch doctor or wizard ? not going to happen now
of all the things they could have removed or simplified in diablo 3 this was the last thing that came to mind, honestly in all my years of playing i never heard from anyone that all characters of a class should have the same stats
an ARPG is about customization and with that move right there Jay took away a huge amount of customization
poroboszcz
11-10-2008, 21:28
Doesn't sound good to me as it limits the possible number of builds significantly. For example you can't have glass cannon max damage Wizard with maxed willpower or Static Charge (ES) one with high mana. You also won't be able to make a decent melee one, even though there are skills that would fit nicely, because of str/dex limitations. Oh.. and no more noobs with maxed str/mana around :)
I think this is the step into simplifying the game so everybody wins. With the current skill system it's really hard to screw up, and without attributes, it'll just make any build work.
Sein Schatten
11-10-2008, 21:33
Ah mah gawd. This is one big retarded move. Who in the dev team do I have to poison to remedy this? This is a very crap move... very crap...
SU_Shadow
11-10-2008, 21:34
Works for me, at least I dont have to worry about putting 20+ straight lvls into str so I can use the armor I want and end up with no life because of it. This would out and out FORCE them to keep stat requirements reasonable for the gear we use. I didn't mind the old way, but one less thing to worry about.
Sein Schatten
11-10-2008, 21:38
Works for me, at least I dont have to worry about putting 20+ straight lvls into str so I can use the armor I want and end up with no life because of it. This would out and out FORCE them to keep stat requirements reasonable for the gear we use. I didn't mind the old way, but one less thing to worry about.
It completely simplifies the gameplay. It is not THAT surprising when you watch the gaming scene as games are more and more simple, generally but I expected a bit more here. The possible builds you can create are now less. Perhaps. Maybe with the new skilltree this will be evened out?
tuftyfella
11-10-2008, 21:46
So no more:
Str for items
Dex for items
No energy
Rest in Vita
Sounds fine to me. D2 gets to the point were you basically just put 95% of your points into Vita anyways on 95% of builds, so I don't really care either way.
this is exactly what i think, so i like the idea. :thumbup:
This is the first thing I have been truely dissapointed in. Not the art controversy, not the Witch Doctor, but this. This is a classic example of the Devs telling us how to play and not letting us choose our fun. You all like it? Well enjoy having items your char might now never be able to use. The Barb is clearly going to have more strength than the Wizard and Witch Doctor, so enjoy finding those "plate armors" and only being able to use your cloth wizard potter hat.
It was fun as heck to try a melee sorc, or to jack up my strength on ALL of my sorc to use Spirit shield...now Blizzard is going to force me to not choose how I make my chars. Stupid. I am dissapointed
I understand this isnt "diablo 2.5" but this is seriously a very large change and a big part of what Diablo is about
What a moronic change, YES lets all play like Jay Wilson likes. No more exotic strats, no diversity, no nothing. Everybody will end up using the same equip, the end.
Clearly Blizzard is trying everything to kill the replayability of Diablo. First removing non-mutual PvP, than implementing respecs and now no manual stat assignation? WTF are they thinking? Welcome to World of Diablo.
Just wanted to say that I also think this is stupid. Blizzard's really fuggin' up with some aspects of D3...
Who wants to start the petition? Cause this is one I would seriously consider signing. Altering gameplay is much different than how a game looks and listening to the devs saying the game will get darker. This is altering gameplay and telling me how to play the game.
GoHabsGo
11-10-2008, 22:13
It does seem like a step back right now but we can't honestly critize this without knowing the whole game concept. Maybe once we know every detail about D3, will understand this choice.
GoHabsGo
11-10-2008, 22:18
Who wants to start the petition? Cause this is one I would seriously consider signing. Altering gameplay is much different than how a game looks and listening to the devs saying the game will get darker. This is altering gameplay and telling me how to play the game.
Your logic is flawed. ANY game out there, you are told how to play. It's THEIR game, of course they will tell you how to play it. Just like they did for D2.
And how can they ''alter'' gameplay?! Not having to chose stats is part of D3 gameplay, that's it.
I don't mind the system and yes it's their game. As with any of the problems in the past, don't buy it in the end.
I can understand not wanting the system in place but I think this would be a bit too much effort to overhaul now. Who knows how the coding runs...
TheReadMenace
11-10-2008, 22:25
I'm a little miffed, but not going so far as to sign a petition. Inclusion of LAN, however, might be a different story...
I immediately see two reasons why this has happened. 1) Action RPG = fast paced, little brain usage, overcomplication. Yes, games like D2 and Champions of Norrath gave you the choice for stat allocation, but if you knew how to play the game it basically turns out the same all the time (Glass Cannons & Titans aside). 2) RPGs tend to auto distribute stat points at level-ups, so why not Diablo? For all the FF VII fanboys out there, if you could manually allocate stats to all nine of your characters, it'd be a much too complicated game.
That said... I'm not feeling it. Like Bill Cosby said, my mages will be forced to use cloth and burlap, while my barbs will be decked out in the heaviest armor in the game. While I care very little for customization for individualistic purposes, I want one of my Wizards to be different from another one. Yes, that can be done though skills, but visually if they stood side by side one wouldn't be able to tell the difference. ...Then again, all those Tal Rasha sorcs running around tell me I'm calling the kettle black...
Like when it comes to health globes and the loss of LAN, maybe my opinion will change come release day. As of now, though, I'm against ANOTHER decision they've made. :coffee: What's new?
Cosby, 3 things:
1. We don't know if item use is limited by attributes.
2. You can still have your mele sorc. The Wizard's conjuration tree is mostly about melee.
3. You just said "this isn't Diablo 2.5," but completely missed why people are saying this.
They didn't take Diablo 2, changed some aspects of it, and left it at that.
For example: They didn't take Diablo 2's stat/item system, changed the stat system, and left it at that.
You are still looking at Diablo 3 through the Diablo 1 or 2 lens. Don't use what you know about Diablo 2 to fill in the missing gaps of information. If we don't know how equipment use will be limited, that means we don't know about how equipment use will be limited. If they announced that only barbarians can wear plate mail or use Stormshield, you would have had a point. But they didn't, so you don't.
Now, if you are arguing from the point of "attribute assigment is part of what Diablo is", you do have a valid argument. I dislike this change myself, but I will wait to see how else are the characters going to be customizable.
1. We don't know if item use is limited by attributes.
Yes we do. Equipment will still have minimum stat requirements, just check the article Ely posted. So yes this critique is fully justified.
O.K., my bad.
However, I counter with the fact that only base attributes are auto-assigned. You can gain them from other ways.
Well, anyway, we will see.
GoHabsGo
11-10-2008, 22:33
People we're crying about D3 not being close enough to D1. Did everyone forget about stats in Diablo one?! You had no customization, every class had specific caps in every attribute.
O.K., my bad.
However, I counter with the fact that only base attributes are auto-assigned. You can gain them from other ways.
Well, anyway, we will see.
Considering charms look to have been removed there are a very limited number of options left to gain stats.
voraginous
11-10-2008, 22:37
This is an awful, AWFUL idea. Just goes to show the devs don't play the game as much or the way the fans do. I'm surprised they are so willing to ostracize people who want to make quirky characters in order to make their own lives easier. The logic behind this is: "we are having trouble balancing item progression, quick take some choices away from the players!" :crazy: How can all characters having the same stats at all levels be cool AT ALL? Sure, most cookie cutter builds were 95% to vit, and enough in str and dex to wear items, but this restricts you by class and item progression. If I have a sigons I want to twink my new char with, why can't I do that? Or even better, say I find a sigons and I want to wear it ASAP. Before I could pump str to make that possible, now I just have to wait till the devs think I should be wearing it (what lvl restrictions weren't enough?). Or maybe I like to keep a lot of stat points in reserve so if I find something awesome I can use it right away. What's wrong with that? Now we don't even have the choice of pump str for spirit or leave it low for mosers. Or the choice between pumping dex for max block or leaving it at base. Now everyone has the same stats and the same strat. Between this and microtransactions this game is losing me fast.
Cosby, 3 things:
1. We don't know if item use is limited by attributes.
2. You can still have your mele sorc. The Wizard's conjuration tree is mostly about melee.
3. You just said "this isn't Diablo 2.5," but completely missed why people are saying this.
They didn't take Diablo 2, changed some aspects of it, and left it at that.
For example: They didn't take Diablo 2's stat/item system, changed the stat system, and left it at that.
You are still looking at Diablo 3 through the Diablo 1 or 2 lens. Don't use what you know about Diablo 2 to fill in the missing gaps of information. If we don't know how equipment use will be limited, that means we don't know about how equipment use will be limited. If they announced that only barbarians can wear plate mail or use Stormshield, you would have had a point. But they didn't, so you don't.
Now, if you are arguing from the point of "attribute assigment is part of what Diablo is", you do have a valid argument. I dislike this change myself, but I will wait to see how else are the characters going to be customizable.
Yeah, we will be restricted what items we wear as they will have min requirements. I have a dual edged arguement that it is taking away a big chunk of what diablo is, and its limiting what my char can do.
This is how its blizzard telling me how to play: They are shutting doors on customization. The cool thing is they have opened others with this rune system. BUT i hope they do modify it so I am not a wizard forced to wear stupid cloth because my str is never going to be high enough.
In Diablo 2, I dont put 1 drop into vitality (unless im hcing) until I am happy with my other stats. I like how i have this option. I like the option of making one zon use spirit/stormshield and my next using barely any str. I like having one sorc do all vit. and mana and no str and the next one being all mana and str and mana shield and the next one being all str and dex etc...this is blizzard telling us what we cant do.
It is their game but one thing they have to remember is not to kill the replayability of Diablo 3. I am looking at it thorugh the D1 and 2 lens because thats all i know. I am going to be open minded in a sense where this isnt make or break for me, but I am peeved and will trust blizzard to make it work. But this is, on paper, in my mind is killing replayability. Stats is a HUGE part of what makes D2 so fun to play over and over again, and they just took away all of it...again...on paper, but they did
Sad day, this is the actual game play decisions I was waiting on before deciding if this was WoW meets the action rpg. No more diversity and for fun builds. What this does is makes sure a barbarian can barely squeeze into a piece of armor that can adequately protect him at level 25. For a mage, it likely means he'll be unable to use that same peice of armor until level 55. By that time the item will be completely useless and outdated. I have a feeling that if +stat items exist in this game, the +stats won't even count towards whether you can use an item or not.
In affect, it might as well be a class specific items system with no stats at all, just level and class req's.
I am forseeing non tradeable items, bind on equip items, and bosses you can only kill once a week.
Jay is so worried about making everything so predictable in the name of being able to fine tune and balance encounters and loot, that he is making everything so predictable that it just might stop being fun.
Hell, I'll still buy the game I think......but at this point its looking more like a beat the game with a few classes game, then uninstall. It certainly is NOT looking like a pay to pay worthy game.....imho.
chenghao
11-10-2008, 22:46
what no stats?
i prefer if they give us a choice to assign out stats
new players could have auto assign while the others could customise
They are shutting doors that have been proven to be a nightmare to balance, and are adding ones that are easier to maintain. Now, I would rather that they figured out a way to fix the doors, but given the choice I understand the developers' concern.
Besides, until we see what other doors have been open, we don't know how "limited" our characters are.
Stats is a HUGE part of what makes D2 so fun to play over and over again, and they just took away all of it...again...on paper, but they did
Str for equip.
Dex for equip.
Energy base if you are twinked, or points until you find mana leach.
Rest in vit.
I am honestly not seeing how stats were "huge." Never felt that way, probably never will (in terms of Diablo 2).
StAlbion
11-10-2008, 22:49
This is just great. Choice is so overrated nowadays. I'm glad Blizzard is putting an end to nonsense like necromancers using melee weapons to kill, or Barbs using bows.
well then you werent creative at all. you didnt have any fun with the game at all. you made cookie cutters and thats it, and even if you made an out there char, and still did +to str + to dex to wear, then all the rest vit, you cant venture out and try to do that anymore.
Games like final fantasy wouldnt implement this because it would be weird because they NEVER had it. D1 had A version of it, d2 had a full version of it, now d3 has none. thats a lil different
if you never feel that way doesnt mean others do konfeta.
Str for equip.
Dex for equip.
Energy base if you are twinked, or points until you find mana leach.
Rest in vit.
Thanks for showing us you only played post 1.10 hammerdins, there are many many other possibilities people played for fun. Completely removing them because they are unable to balance items is a cheap way to go around it and as it stands now, I won't be wasting money on the game.
voraginous
11-10-2008, 22:53
They are shutting doors that have been proven to be a nightmare to balance, and are adding ones that are easier to maintain. Now, I would rather that they figured out a way to fix the doors, but given the choice I understand the developers' concern.
Besides, until we see what other doors have been open, we don't know how "limited" our characters are.
Str for equip.
Dex for equip.
Energy base if you are twinked, or points until you find mana leach.
Rest in vit.
I am honestly not seeing how stats were "huge." Never felt that way, probably never will (in terms of Diablo 2).
what was a nightmare to balance? And why do we need "balance"? Not like this is a PvP game. Sure balance is important, but I don't see what this is "fixing".
I made characters, played with them, and had fun with them long before I even knew what that "Battle.net" button was or that guides existed for the game. During that period stats were always secondary, an annoying limitation telling me what I could use and when.
I stand by my point. Stats were an illusion of choice. I didn't feel "creative" when I saw an item my character wanted to use and started pumping points to equip it.
Thanks for showing us you only played post 1.10 hammerdins, there are many many other possibilities people played for fun. Completely removing them because they are unable to balance items is a cheap way to go around it and as it stands now, I won't be wasting money on the game.
Thanks for showing me that you know exactly how Diablo 3 will play (or what characters I used in D2) and how lacking in "customization" its characters will be. Would you mind me hiring you as a psychic?
GoHabsGo
11-10-2008, 23:07
well then you werent creative at all. you didnt have any fun with the game at all. you made cookie cutters and thats it, and even if you made an out there char, and still did +to str + to dex to wear, then all the rest vit, you cant venture out and try to do that anymore.
Games like final fantasy wouldnt implement this because it would be weird because they NEVER had it. D1 had A version of it, d2 had a full version of it, now d3 has none. thats a lil different
if you never feel that way doesnt mean others do konfeta.
Of course you can judge if people had ''fun'' with a game or not.
What this guy said...
That was pretty epic how you squeezed so many baseless assumptions into one post.
Personally for me, it was skill combinations and not attributes that diversified my characters. All I see this doing is pushing stat allocation onto items, therefore you choose what stats you want by what items you wear (which, of course will be restricted to what you can trade/find). If you want that best in slot ancient armour for your wizard, you may have to sacrifice those killer boots for something which boost your stats sufficiently (as well as being awesome ^^=); not forgetting also -% reduced requirements. The only real requirement is that the stats used to restrict gear access must be relevant for your character. It makes no sense to force a Witch doctor to stack some strength on his items if it didn't do something else meaningful for him, for example, allowing his pets inherit his stats.
The benefits seem pretty clear with auto-stat allocation. Take for example Duriel, for hardcore characters that don't boost Vita early expect to be flattened by the slug. Even that has a limiting aspect in the fact that you then won't have the strength or dex to have the most current/protective gear available. Forcing players to do a bit of overleveling in most cases, to be certain to avoid death. I'd expect encounters to be much more evenly balanced than this. As I mentioned before item choices get an extra layer of meaning too.
I can see why this would worry players from a d2 perspective, but as stated already in this thread, we can't make presumptions based on d2's item system yet. Until we get a better idea of how Blizzard intends to balance item availability, which we've had no information on yet.
Mad Mantis
11-10-2008, 23:09
So instead of going the other way and making the stats a much more interesting piece of gameplay, they decide to just axe them. Seriously, why even bother putting them in? Since I can't decide myself how I want to distribute the stats why should I be concerned about how high they are?
This is the first really moronic move I've seen from the D3 team. In their zeal for keeping things "fast paced" they are forgetting that character customization is one of the few things that keeps people interested in the game. Not the mindless slaughter of monsters. More customization is better. Don't try to "streamline" is, make it something more interesting.
Dont like it, what if people want melee casters? of all the positive changes to the game, this one sucks.:coffee:
this change was beyond stupid
instead of giving worthwhile secondary bonuses to stats such as spell damage for intelligence/energy (look at titan quest) they just remove stat customization entirely
What is this "customization" you speak of? In D2 even though you can put your attributes in whatever you want, no serious player actually does that. It's always str/dex for items, little to no energy, and rest on vitality. Either way it'll boil down to all classes having the same stat build.
so essentially now
1) Diablo 3 is more like WoW gameplay
2) Diablo 3 is even more item focused than diablo 2
Isn't D2 already item focused? A level 50 with godly items will have a decent chance of beating a level 99 with crap to decent items, that's already too much item based to me.
3) Non-caster builds for casters/summoners won't exist because your str/dex/vit/life/whatever will be crap
you want to have a melee witch doctor or wizard ? not going to happen now
Well isn't the point of being a caster/summoner is to have low defense but greatly make up for it with their supportive skills and powerful spells? If you have a caster that can wear the same armor, you'll basically have a caster that can tank pretty well which eliminates the point of being a ranged attacker and requires absolutely no unique strategies to use.
Btw why would you want a melee WD/wizard? Too much time to kill?
of all the things they could have removed or simplified in diablo 3 this was the last thing that came to mind, honestly in all my years of playing i never heard from anyone that all characters of a class should have the same stats
an ARPG is about customization and with that move right there Jay took away a huge amount of customization
D3 is still about customization, you can choose character genders, use runes to provide added effects to spells, have gems to change a weapon's abilities.
So instead of going the other way and making the stats a much more interesting piece of gameplay, they decide to just axe them. Seriously, why even bother putting them in? Since I can't decide myself how I want to distribute the stats why should I be concerned about how high they are?
Because there could be items with +stats? Quests that gives +assignable stats? Elixirs? Etc.?
Also, why the flying <expletive> do people scream "OMG NO MORE CUSTOMIZATION EVERY CHAR WILL BE THE SAME WTF BLIZZARD" because they changed, not removed, but changed one aspect of how you can do customization?
imjustsomeguy
11-10-2008, 23:17
I don't really care either way but if the removal of player stat allocation makes for better balance and an overall better gameplay experience (could effect monster design as well) then so be it. There seems to be plenty of character customization already with the skill trees and the runes. I can't say I like the idea of Wizards wearing the same armor as barbs anyways.
voraginous
11-10-2008, 23:27
So instead of going the other way and making the stats a much more interesting piece of gameplay, they decide to just axe them. Seriously, why even bother putting them in? Since I can't decide myself how I want to distribute the stats why should I be concerned about how high they are?
This is the first really moronic move I've seen from the D3 team. In their zeal for keeping things "fast paced" they are forgetting that character customization is one of the few things that keeps people interested in the game. Not the mindless slaughter of monsters. More customization is better. Don't try to "streamline" is, make it something more interesting.
QFT. It still may turn out to be an awesome game, but from what we know now, this is idiotic.
Because there could be items with +stats? Quests that gives +assignable stats? Elixirs? Etc.?
Also, why the flying <expletive> do people scream "OMG NO MORE CUSTOMIZATION EVERY CHAR WILL BE THE SAME WTF BLIZZARD" because they changed, not removed, but changed one aspect of how you can do customization?
Because you're wrong. Blizzard removed, not changed, but removed one aspect of how we can do customization. We can't customize our base stats anymore. The game does it for us automatically. That's called removal, not change.
Also: can you explain to me what problem removing base stat customization fixes? because I still don't get it..
Mad Mantis
11-10-2008, 23:30
Because there could be items with +stats? Quests that gives +assignable stats? Elixirs? Etc.?
They could leave those out as well. Should make for even easier balancing of everything.
For this concept to work there need to be items at every level that any character can equip that give enough boosts to make it worthwhile. It is the only way you can artificially work around the imposed penalties. I don't like the restrictions.
I don't really care either way but if the removal of player stat allocation makes for better balance and an overall better gameplay experience (could effect monster design as well) then so be it.
If superior balance is the holy grail, then why do they allow any form of choice? Just give fixed avatars.
What kind of balancing could be so important and impossible to do without fixing the stat progression?
I can't say I like the idea of Wizards wearing the same armor as barbs anyways.
Why not? If someone wants to spend the points in enough strength to wear it why not let them.
so you dont like finding a cool piece of gear and then leveling up to use it? Lol, thats what Diablo is. Now its going to be like this: Find the cool piece of gear. oh. I can never use it. sweet.
Whoever said it is right, I can not judge how people had fun with the game doing what they enjoy, but from my own experiences the stats are and were a huge part of what made the game enjoyable because yes i enjoyed finding that item and getting my char to using it by tweaking what needed to be tweaked.
At first I don't mind some of the huge changes for D2, but this is stepping over the line now. Once I buy D3 it might not even feel like one of the Diablo series.
So picture this: You are lvl 98 or 99 on your wizard. It wasn by no means easy to get there and it shouldnt be. You are mfing one day and find the best item in the game. but oh wait, you cant use it, you need a lvl 98 barb. no thank you.
I like my wizards strong, while having a hard time blocking, with a lot of life and little mana
voraginous
11-10-2008, 23:42
To be fair we don't know much about stats/items yet. But I would argue that almost regardless of what we learn, the game could only be improved by increased player choice. It doesn't hurt anyone to allow sub optimal builds. Cookie cutters can still do their thing, and people who want quirky characters can do their thing.
Omikron8
11-10-2008, 23:53
They are shutting doors that have been proven to be a nightmare to balance, and are adding ones that are easier to maintain. Now, I would rather that they figured out a way to fix the doors, but given the choice I understand the developers' concern.
Besides, until we see what other doors have been open, we don't know how "limited" our characters are.
Str for equip.
Dex for equip.
Energy base if you are twinked, or points until you find mana leach.
Rest in vit.
I am honestly not seeing how stats were "huge." Never felt that way, probably never will (in terms of Diablo 2).
add in secondary mods for the stats
strength: add some defensive bonuses like damage absorption
dex: increased chance to hit with spells, increased chance of critical strike with both spells and attacks
vitality: add some other defensive bonuses like increased life regen
energy: increased spell damage (like in titan quest), increased mana regen, reduced mana cost of spells
just because the stats were lopsided in diablo 2 doesn't mean you trash the whole system
I'm 99% positive that D3 will have class specific items, D2 has them.
What's the point of a class specific item? Well it's powerful, it's made your your character, and the requirements are easy for the character it's made for, so don't you go tell me that you're extremely pissed because you found a giant maul of destruction but you can't equip it to your sorc. :D You'll always have that cool staff for your sorc that requires hardly any points to use.
FeydAway
11-10-2008, 23:53
QFT. It still may turn out to be an awesome game, but from what we know now, this is idiotic.
Because you're wrong. Blizzard removed, not changed, but removed one aspect of how we can do customization. We can't customize our base stats anymore. The game does it for us automatically. That's called removal, not change.
Also: can you explain to me what problem removing base stat customization fixes? because I still don't get it..
I'm not sure this IS truth.
Let's look at how D2 worked: you added points in stats to what end? Really, you only add enough str or dex to wear certain items. It had nothing to do with class or build. The rest you put into VIT or MANA if you needed a mana boost. But, primarily VIT.
In the new build you have no choice over stats. It's based upon your class. So, the difference now is that you will itemize to alter your stats rather than alter your stats in order to itemize. Essentially the exact same thing. They haven't removed stat customization, they've simply moved the customization into the itemization step. And, now you can have different sets based upon how you want your character to work.
I'm thinking a Barb with a 2h Hammer that adds +50 STR can also have an axe/shield combo that adds +100 VIT instead. Offense vs. defense. It actually ends up being more customizable.
Omikron8
11-10-2008, 23:56
I'm 99% positive that D3 will have class specific items, D2 has them.
What's the point of a class specific item? Well it's powerful, it's made your your character, and the requirements are easy for the character it's made for, so don't you go tell me that you're extremely pissed because you found a giant maul of destruction but you can't equip it to your sorc. :D You'll always have that cool staff for your sorc that requires hardly any points to use.
i can't equip heavy melee weapons/armor on my wizard --> i can't make variant/non cookie-cutter builds on my wizard --> my replayability decreases --> i quit the game sooner
i see absolutely no upside to LESS replayability
do you really want a caster class that will ALWAYS have to play like a caster, do you really want that ? that kind of mentality is NOT what made diablo 2 famous
I'm 99% positive that D3 will have class specific items, D2 has them.
What's the point of a class specific item? Well it's powerful, it's made your your character, and the requirements are easy for the character it's made for, so don't you go tell me that you're extremely pissed because you found a giant maul of destruction but you can't equip it to your sorc. :D You'll always have that cool staff for your sorc that requires hardly any points to use.
The number of item types that were class restricted was very low in D2, just because you didn't play a melee sorc or a barb/druid/pala with a bow or some other crazy combo like that does not mean nobody has. Removing the choice completely from the game is beyond retarded.
Because you're wrong. Blizzard removed, not changed, but removed one aspect of how we can do customization. We can't customize our base stats anymore. The game does it for us automatically. That's called removal, not change.
If they re-allocated how you improve your attributes, it's called change, not removal. Removal of stat customization would be removal of the stat system itself.
Also: can you explain to me what problem removing base stat customization fixes? because I still don't get it..
O.K. Let's go with 100 levels and 5 stats per level. 500 stats. In this game, stats have a greater impact on your character's performance: for example, Willpower can be modified by a Wizard passive skill to grant massive bonuses to spell damage on top of what boosts it would originally do. While, let's say, an average Wizard distributes these stats evenly to equip quirky items such as plate and boost base HP through vitality, a glass cannon Wizard distributes most of his attributes on Willpower.
Result - A Wizard that pumps Willpower rapidly rises against the damage:monster HP curve. Expense of HP or wearing plate you say? Who gives a **** about HP, the Wizard 1 shots everything it encounters.
Result of the Result - Blizzard has to account for this massive possible swing in power. A character that does elementary min-maxing of stats is suddenly light years ahead of others in terms of damage output, to the point of where it's supposed weakness becomes irrelevant.
My point is, attributes that have meaning and can be assigned absolutely freely leads to min-maxing, which leads to power levels of variety that some characters will be exponentially more powerful than other builds. When your game has the potential to have your a single character literally outdamage the rest of his team combined because of a specific min-max strategy, you have a balancing nightmare. The only way to avoid this nightmare is to either make attributes worthless again or greatly kill the variety in skills.
Axing the ability to freely assign attributes results in Blizzard being allowed to give these stats actual impact. They can actually have a character that has 50 more willpower than another character to be significantly different based on that difference alone and not worry about some smart *** breaking the game.
Let me rephrase it: by removing per-level-stat allocation Blizzard was freed up to make a vastly more varied skill system and improve the stat system itself. This is a less is more situation. This decision, essentially, allowed them GIVE you options for customization.
This is why I see views that they are killing customization as patently absurd. Yes, they could have figured out a way to keep base stat allocation and have it work with all improvements to the rest of the game. But the point is, it's ludicrously difficult. They sacrificed one aspect of the series so that the rest could improve manyfold.
They could leave those out as well. Should make for even easier balancing of everything.
For this concept to work there need to be items at every level that any character can equip that give enough boosts to make it worthwhile. It is the only way you can artificially work around the imposed penalties. I don't like the restrictions.
It's called finding balance in what to keep and what to not keep. Slippery slope argument honestly isn't the best one against such a gray area. They need to streamline it to an extent. They aren't streamlining for sake of streamlining, they are doing it for sake of having good gameplay.
voraginous
12-10-2008, 00:09
If they re-allocated how you improve your attributes, it's called change, not removal. Removal of stat customization would be removal of the stat system itself.
They removed our ability to customize our base stats. That's removal of base stat customization. Sorry, you're just plain wrong on this.
O.K. Let's go with 100 levels and 5 stats per level. 500 stats. In this game, stats have a greater impact on your character's performance: for example, Willpower can be modified by a Wizard passive skill to grant massive bonuses to spell damage on top of what boosts it would originally do. While, let's say, an average Wizard distributes these stats evenly to equip quirky items such as plate and boost base HP through vitality, a glass cannon Wizard distributes most of his attributes on Willpower.
Result - A Wizard that pumps Willpower rapidly rises against the damage:monster HP curve. Expense of HP or wearing plate you say? Who gives a **** about HP, the Wizard 1 shots everything it encounters.
Result of the Result - Blizzard has to account for this massive possible swing in power. A character that does elementary min-maxing of stats is suddenly light years ahead of others in terms of damage output, to the point of where it's supposed weakness becomes irrelevant.
My point is, attributes that have meaning and can be assigned absolutely freely leads to min-maxing, which leads to power levels of variety that some characters will be exponentially more powerful than other builds. When your game has the potential to have your a single character literally outdamage the rest of his team combined because of a specific min-max strategy, you have a balancing nightmare. The only way to avoid this nightmare is to either make attributes worthless again or greatly kill the variety in skills.
Axing the ability to freely assign attributes results in Blizzard being allowed to give these stats actual impact. They can actually have a character that has 50 more willpower than another character to be significantly different based on that difference alone and not worry about some smart *** breaking the game.
Let me rephrase it: by removing per-level-stat allocation Blizzard was freed up to make a vastly more varied skill system and improve the stat system itself. This is a less is more situation. This decision, essentially, allowed them GIVE you options for customization.
This is why I see views that they are killing customization as patently absurd. Yes, they could have figured out a way to keep base stat allocation and have it work with all improvements to the rest of the game. But the point is, it's ludicrously difficult. They sacrificed one aspect of the series so that the rest could improve manyfold.
It's called finding balance in what to keep and what to not keep. Slippery slope argument honestly isn't the best one against such a gray area. They need to streamline it to an extent. They aren't streamlining for sake of streamlining, they are doing it for sake of having good gameplay.
This is a good argument, BUT why not balance the game towards that imba glass cannon and let people play underpowered hybrids if they want? Or better yet, why not make it so glass cannons simply have weaknesses? Like monsters which do tons of damage per shot. That's one of a HC Necro's greatest fears: getting one shotted by a gloam whose bolts go through your minions. If all stats have meaning (str, vit and dex) your glass cannon example will get torn up. He has no life, no block, no armor class. I think your example only works when the willpower stat and the particular skill you're talking about are already overpowered.
They removed our ability to customize our base stats. That's removal of base stat customization. Sorry, you're just plain wrong on this.
O.K., we are operating under different definitions. They removed an aspect of stat customization. They didn't remove actual stat customization. Yes, you are right, they removed something. What they didn't do, again, is remove actual stat customization.
For some reason, people are throwing a fit and are equating a change to the system of stat distribution to removal of the whole thing. :rolleyes:
This is a good argument, BUT why not balance the game towards that imba glass cannon and let people play underpowered hybrids if they want? Or better yet, why not make it so glass cannons simply have weaknesses? Like monsters which do tons of damage per shot. That's one of a HC Necro's greatest fears: getting one shotted by a gloam whose bolts go through your minions.
Because then underpowered hybrids get screwed, thus ironically, removing choice in this game as it will be forcing you to play specific glass cannon builds to do well.
On the more serious note, the entire point of balance is that different play styles don't get screwed. The whole idea is that a person can have fun playing this game no matter what their preference is - whenever it's a glass cannon Wizard or a Wizard that mixes it up in melee, etc.
The job for Blizzard here is to make a game sufficiently challenging so that intelligent character building remains without ensuring that only certain types of builds dominate. There will still be "best builds" for min-maxers. But the point is, there won't (or at least shouldn't) be builds that completely devastate the game at no effort. I think no one wants Hammerdins or Furyzons or Noobcannonzons in Diablo 3, do they?
Now, I am not saying that it's impossible to balance a game with such extreme power swings. What I am saying, is that it's extremely difficult to do, and it is simpler for Blizzard (and thus better for the players) that they modify the game to accommodate easier balancing. Bonus points come from the idea that this particular accommodation allows them to include more varied gameplay effects (stats being significant, skills interacting with stats, skill runes, etc.).
They are shutting doors that have been proven to be a nightmare to balance, and are adding ones that are easier to maintain. Now, I would rather that they figured out a way to fix the doors, but given the choice I understand the developers' concern.
Besides, until we see what other doors have been open, we don't know how "limited" our characters are.
Str for equip.
Dex for equip.
Energy base if you are twinked, or points until you find mana leach.
Rest in vit.
I am honestly not seeing how stats were "huge." Never felt that way, probably never will (in terms of Diablo 2).
It's the way attributes and +attribute items were implemented in D2 that made them somewhat broken, not the attributes themselves. They should be huge, they are what makes a character unique. In D2 they weren't huge when they should've been.
So Blizzard's solution is to just toss them out the window... Pretty elementary and lame of a solution, if you ask me.
Ok I 100% dis-agree with the Glass cannon should be made which is fine because you can just counter it with a one-hit monster. Blizzard has acknowledged how big of a flaw this is, and you can tell how big it is if you ever HAVE played D2 HC. There isnt a challenge in getting 1 shot on a lag spawn that you have no chance against...thats just not fair.
Bottom line in terms of stats, and this is HUGE for me and my style of play. I DO NOT want to have to pick a char based on what items I want to use. That is stupid in my humble opinion. I should not be restricted by the game to have to choose between something like that, with the exception of the 1% of items that are class specific.
I dont want to play a barb. period. I will possibly when i tire out the other options, but I am not a barb fan, even though he looks cool I dont want to try him out first, I want to try a wizard so far. Right now I am already limited in the things I want to do, so OUTSIDE of skill specialization, after I exhaust all of those options, im done with the wizard. cool.
In D2 there were 3 ways to customize a char. Gear, Stats, and Skills. Now so far there is Gear and Skills. 33% replayability gone for me and actually probably more when you factor in the diff gear and skill combos. The gear can not be varied nearly as much because I am restricted on what I can wear.
Carsv, read my block of text if you can stomach it (I am sorry!) for the argument against your comment.
@Cosby
Skill customization/variety has been massively expanded by both changes to the skill system itself and addition of skill runes. 33% became 66%; what we lost in customization of base stats we gained in customization of skills - there will probably be more variance in builds based on skills alone than in Diablo 2's stat/skills combination.
Attribute customization is now tied to item customization, and potentially elixirs and quests. It became less, but rest of the game was improved. Now we have potions that actually mean something - need a short-term damage boost for your Wizard? Drink a Willpower potion and go to town!
Gear customization was probably expanded, I don't know though. We will have to see about that.
Overall, the way I see it, Diablo 3 already has more choices that are more varied as a result of a simple sacrifice.
before I go further on this...(page 6 already..wow hot topic) let me say that I AM always willing to try this out before I bash whole heartedly, I am just presenting my assumptions on how its going to be. (we all know what happens when you assume...)
But Kon, we all know what Diablo series is about. It was even said in the very first gameplay video at WWI. Diablo is ALL ABOUT THE LOOT. So if they are restricting me using that loot, it is restricting what diablo is all about?
I am really really excited about the power runes, and new skill tree (just posted a reply on the skill tree thread), but that doesnt mean I am less happy about potentially losing my stat distribution. I enjoyed the variety of customization and again my ability to dictate what my char wore, how it looked, and what direction it was headed in. Now I can control its spells, and its spells some more and some more...not the most exciting thing for the whole game to be focused on.
remember, its all about the loot, lets not limit what people can wear.
Are Charms coming back? haha, who wants to go farm +5 to str charms baby!
And it is still about the loot. Skill runes are loot, mate! This game's skill system is a simultaneous mix of Diablo 1, 2, and WoW.
O.K., I can't argue the point if the stat limitations will significantly restrict item wearing, but we will see. I have faith that Blizzard will figure something out for platemail using Wizards and that they have the imagination to have stat customization outside of what we already seen - items, potions, quests.
I mean, the Skill Rune system was a very pleasant surprise. I think they will come up with something similar for item equipment prerequisites.
i can't equip heavy melee weapons/armor on my wizard --> i can't make variant/non cookie-cutter builds on my wizard --> my replayability decreases --> i quit the game sooner
i see absolutely no upside to LESS replayability
do you really want a caster class that will ALWAYS have to play like a caster, do you really want that ? that kind of mentality is NOT what made diablo 2 famous
What kind of mentality IS diablo2 made of? A sorceress having as much strength and stamina as a barbarian? and instead of using her eye catching magic skills like she's known for, she just dumbfounds us with their muscular arms and starts bashing monsters head with a maul bigger than her body? Seem's like a "special" type of mentality.
The number of item types that were class restricted was very low in D2, just because you didn't play a melee sorc or a barb/druid/pala with a bow or some other crazy combo like that does not mean nobody has. Removing the choice completely from the game is beyond retarded.
So I'm guessing that the amazon should be able to use holy bolt, a sorceress should be able to use leap attack, the necromancer should be able to use martial arts move? Is this the type of thing you're trying to aim for? Wouldn't your logic be ridding the characters of their uniqueness? Why not go back to the old Diablo1 system where any characters can use any spells, and a sorcerer can have warrior stats and skills whereas the only sorcerer trait that he has is his name?
Do you feel the same way when the class specific item was introduced in LoD? "OMG I WANT THAT SHRUNKEN HEAD FOR MY PALLY"
Is it me or are you confusing items and the ability to use them with class skills?
So I'm guessing that the amazon should be able to use holy bolt, a sorceress should be able to use leap attack, the necromancer should be able to use martial arts move?
Actually, runeword oskills in D2 made for pretty interesting and fun-to-play characters such as palazons and weresins. It wouldn't be fun if all classes were mirror-images of each other, but it IS fun to see how a particular skill from another works with the rest of the skills of another.
Coming back to the topic, the removal of user-assigned stats means that they don't want certain equipment available to certain classes. I hope the benefits to balancing outweigh the considerable loss in player choice.
ill logic
12-10-2008, 02:07
Cosby: Who will start the petition indeed. I absolutely hate this change from what I've seen so far. We need a far better explanation for why making attributes auto. will be a good idea, rather than that it helps them accommodate items better.
Blizz has shown interest in changing things when the public can make a good case (corpses). We need to do that here.
And I've really just scanned over this thread. But someone said they're glad that builds won't be "max vit, no nrg, as much str/dex as needed" anymore. But this change is using a hatchet when a scalpel was called for.
If you have a tree growing across your drive way, the last instrument you will want to be using is a scalpel.
Read the thread, I explained this position.
So picture this: You are lvl 98 or 99 on your wizard. It wasn by no means easy to get there and it shouldnt be. You are mfing one day and find the best item in the game. but oh wait, you cant use it, you need a lvl 98 barb. no thank you.
I like my wizards strong, while having a hard time blocking, with a lot of life and little mana
Items are pretty much being made for individual classes now. If its a item that would require stats a barb has and others don't then its probably only going to be good for a barb. I didn't really expect this, but at least we have skill runes now. They seem like a really cool way to diversify characters.
Whoa, was not expecting this change. I can't say I like it very much, but I'm willing to wait and see. I have faith in Blizz's ability to make fun games, but this decision does make me nervous.
I do see a potential benefit of this system though. And maybe this was what they were trying to accomplish. By having the stats auto assign, it makes sure your character will be able to handle whatever level of the game you are in. So if you're lvl 40, theres a specific place in the game you should be (like in d2, this was around act 1/2 of NM), and all lvls 40s should be able to handle the area well. This helps place the focus back on actually playing through the game rather than just rushing.
In D2, the quickest way to get through the game was to get rushed, and then put in all pts into strength until you hit the specific strength your guy required, then dex, then rest vita. The result of this was that you had a bunch of lvl 30-70 guys who couldnt do jack: they might have had good gear on, but they couldnt take a hit and they didnt have enough mana to do much damage. I know it doesn't stop rushing, but it does appear it would give some meaning and fun to the mid-level game, which I feel was really lacking in D2.
If this in combination with the idea that all skills, even low level skills, will be useful, this makes sure that no one can really mess up their character. While some may say that this decreases variety, it another way it increases variety because no matter what you choose, you can be relatively sure the build will be viable, letting individual preference dictate skill choice, rather than whats viable.
But I do agree with people, that it does seem to discourage completely strange builds, like melee sorc/singer barb/etc. But hopefully as another poster pointed out, if there are other sources of extra stat points, you can still make them, you just need to get the right gear.
I find it sad that there are so many (obviously, kids or very impatient personalities in general.. I'm hoping the former) people bashing critical thought around here. What's so wrong with expressing your opinion about something you love? I wouldn't want to go trough life not voicing my opinion on things that I don't like, and it's quite pathetic to watch how you try to force that upon others. If you don't like negative threads, don't read them. Growing up would be useful, too.
As for the change, I'm neutral. I don't like it because I think it's too much similiar other games out there, and another unique feature they removed. On the other hand, I don't know what's left to show, so I'm willing to wait. I liked WoW, but not for the skill attributes system.
Edit: I *do* believe it limits customizability. A barbarian doesn't always have to be using strength, as could be seen by numerous warcry builds out there. Same with assasin, you could do quite well with a blade-build, and that wasn't the same attributes wise as a regular build.
Critical thought implies people actually thinking out the change. In most of this thread I have saw mostly kneejerk bash. Sorry if I delved into that territory, but I feel rather opinionated and would prefer that people actually thought this one through instead of automatically deriding it.
Sein Schatten
12-10-2008, 03:30
It's the way attributes and +attribute items were implemented in D2 that made them somewhat broken, not the attributes themselves. They should be huge, they are what makes a character unique. In D2 they weren't huge when they should've been.
So Blizzard's solution is to just toss them out the window... Pretty elementary and lame of a solution, if you ask me.
QFT. Blizzard is just lazy with this. Balancing skills and stats is too much work for them. :(
Konfeta: Your argument can very well be made against skills, too.
I actually take offense to that Kon. Considering I have explained every aspect I have said I am unhappy with, countered your arguements when you "delved" into your territory, and said that I trust blizzard and will wait to play before a final determination is decided upon. I wouldnt lump all of us together when you are bashing the people in this thread simply for DISAGREEING with you.
People by no means should all be forced to agree, life would be much less interesting. and Diablo would be much less interesting if instead of being able to put an extra 40 pts into strength so i can use that better gear, it was forced into useless mana. :crazyeyes:
i called it last week, this game would get dumbed down. Removing custom stat points is a great example.
Seems like they are making this game for the console market.
This is a serious blow... the negative effects may not be insurmountable with extensive additional changes, but they're very much in the wrong direction. It's excessive catering to the casual player, handholding (that could be performed equally with respecs or an autoassign function) at potentially great sacrifice to replayability and very much the lazy alternative to better balancing attributes against each other. Variety and balance are ever enemies but in this case it seems a no-brainer between being able to make a sub-par char purely for the sake of the individuality or challenge, with balance aimed at 'recommended' stat placement, and simply being forced to go for the broadly optimum setup. More serious than the loss of stats itself (I'll charitably assume the customisation has been moved but retained) is the suggestion that the game will simply not allow players to take roles outside of those expected for a class except in ways closely envisioned by devs.
Attributes in D3, included but predetermined, have no purpose (other than further estabilishing continuity from previous Diablos, which isn't at all important to me) except to limit players. It would be perfectly plausible for attributes to be slanted differently towards different classes if this was deemed necessary; barbs have to spend double to get 1 energy as they do for 1 str for example. Taken as representative of the D3 team's attitude towards D3 this is on several levels very bad news indeed for me.
Swordslash
12-10-2008, 03:39
It's now clear to me that D3 will probably suck compared to D2. We don't have the original dev team of D2, so we had to hope that the people holding the reins would try to live up to the legacy of the originals. Clearly... not. 'Oh boy, let's change THIS fundamental thing about diablo, and see how people react! Let's take THIS away from the user! Stupid users don't know anything about building characters anyway!' :crazy:
One of the greatest parts of D2 was the customizability of the characters. Do I want 156 Str on my Sorc to use Spirit/SS, or do I want to go light on Str? Or be crazy and make her a Melee with Dream? Caster or Fighter Paladin? Caster or Melee Assassin? Flush it all out the airlock, because you have no choices now. Blizzard is going to tell you exactly what you want, and you better like it.
Man, whatever. Screw D3. Back to the D2 forums, and enjoying the great game we already have. I'll have a headstart on all the people that try D3, and go back to D2 a week later...
i called it last week, this game would get dumbed down. Removing custom stat points is a great example.
Seems like they are making this game for the console market.
Everything is dumbing down, it's the excessively capitalist way: target the lowest common denominator possible for the maximum revenue. Unfortunately it's taking over our society, ranging from movies, music, games, to even our education (no child left behind).
You know what this decision by Blizzard reminds me of? Dungeon Siege. If anyone has played that game, you can guess what I could say about it.
Is it me or are you confusing items and the ability to use them with class skills?
Me?
If so then no, I'm not confusing anything. It seems pretty clear that all you want is to separate the class boundaries between the character, which makes the different classes pointless.
The more info that I'm hearing, the more D3 is sounding like Nox. I liked the Nox auto-stats system since it was very much story driven, and I could wear almost anything by the time I got them. Furthermore, I was more focused on the action. However, I think skipping out on stats allocation in a Diablo game ruins the uniqueness of titan or life builds. The way Titan Quest handled stats is preferable to this new system.
Perhaps a better system would be 2 auto-stats +3 user stats or something like that.
Omikron8
12-10-2008, 04:52
the way i see it in an ARPG the replayability comes from
1) stat customization
2) item build customization
3) skill build customization
with this decision they have taken away choice #1 which also hurts #2 since they will probably force each class into a particular set of gear for endgame (look at the tier sets in WoW to understand what i mean)
you don't want to melee as a barb ? then you will have to play another class
i just really really really hope that the pvp system does not become popular resulting in blizzard ruining pve balance for the sake of trying to satisfy 14 year olds in "competitive pvp", once again exactly what has happened in WoW since the introduction of arenas
blizzard here's a hint, THE PLAYERBASES OF WOW AND DIABLO ARE DIFFERENT AND RARELY CROSSOVER
Heres the facts and again another reason im ticked off.
I just logged onto b.net (for prob the 6th time today, but first time look at the stats ;)), and there are 60,000 people playing D3 right now.
THIS GAME HAS ALMOST BEEN OUT FOR 10 YEARS. I agree that we should get a new game but changing the "fundamentals" is not how you go about doing that.
I have been playing since about 2000 and I will bet that anyone who also has been playing for a long period of time still plays because they can do what they want, when they want with the chars.
Everytime the ladder resets, I make a sorc so I can MF easily, teleport, i know how to level almost any tree in that char class and enjoy that class the most. If I had restrictions on what I could do, I promise you I would have stopped playing a long long time ago. There is no sense in playing more than a couple times if I know what my restrictions are. If there is gear that is limited to my char, I try out that gear, and once i've used it all, why do i keep playing? If a class cant use certain items then that is limiting the fan bases ability to play how they want, when they want
Anyone who thinks that D2 stat allocation had no variety... Well, you haven't played a lot of RPGs. Especially in untwinked play, almost every class puts points in all 4 attributes; energy is kinda the redheaded stepchild that no one really wants but untwinked casters still use it at times; and personally I blame itemization making it so easy to get +mana, %mana and %regen for the lack of emphasis on energy, rather than a fundamental flaw in the system. I've just played too many RPGs where every class snatches up the same 2 stats and ignores everything else.
This really does point to a departure from the freedom to use any item that was one of the most fun aspects of D2. Time will tell if the game compensates us with freedoms in other areas.
There are several major issues with this design choice that seem blatantly obvious to me.
First, it wasn't Stat Allocation itself that was broken in Diablo 2. It was the obvious importance of Vitality over every other stat. You had to maximize your Vitality to make the most effective character possible. Sure, strength added the ability to wear equipment but return on investment thinned out pretty quickly there. It also added damage to melee weapons but that effect was not terribly relevant. There was dexterity that was also in the same boat. Max Block added a little more importance to the Dex equation but other than that, it was not required. And Energy, forget it. Especially with the emergence of Insight, who would spend points in something that simply gave you mana? That's what potions were for.
Now if in Diablo 2 they had implemented it so that Energy effected base damage/duration of abilities, Strength impacted melee damage and maybe damage reduction, Dexterity did block, accuracy, defense but to greater effect, and Vitality stayed as is, it would have enabled more flexibility in builds.
Now what I see happening is that a Witch Doctor will always be frustrated they have less of a mana pool than the Wizard and they both are frustrated that they die in one hit to a monster the Barbarian can easily stand toe to toe with.
I loved the ability to play the classes how I saw fit in Diablo 2. Use the enchant skill on myself and be a front-line fighter, using either ES or the cold armours? Hell yeah. Stabbing people in the back with poisoned daggers while they're blinded by my Dim Vision and having my golem smack on the smarter champions to keep the occupied? Again, awesome. Take my Paladin or Barbarian and have them stay on the outskirts of battle using support shouts or Holy Bolting undead to oblivion? Fantastic.
Now, I'll reserve full judgment until I see what effect this decision has on the gameplay, but if I'm restricted to cloth armour as a magic user in the Diablo universe, then it's no longer for me. If I wanted stale archetypes in my action RPGs, there are infinity+1 other games out there where I can be a weak spellcaster, an agile but leather-wearing assassin/rogue or a burly plate wearing fighter who is the anathema to magic.
If all classes have the same stat progression and then skills determine strengths, I guess I can live with that.
I could live with it too, but all the same stats across the board? That is making it harder on the blizzard team to come up with items that are so diverse per class that they will be exhausted by the time the game comes out. If the slack in effort...then cookie cutters galore.
The thing thats funny is in .09 people did use to put points in energy. Insight was seriously one of the main things that had people never ever putting points in energy ever again. In .09 people had to get sojs or occy rings and they were set. but if you werent wealthy, yeah you had to use all of your stats.
An Amazon in D2? TOTALLY dex dependent. Even more than Vitality because for your ranged damage to be huge, you need to pump dex, not STR. The variety is amazing in D2 and I hope they change it after seeing threads like this...
bigsuxoringnoob
12-10-2008, 05:51
i agree with many of the opinions here; i don't see the need for removing the option to allocate your own stats. i can understand having autoallocation of a few stat points, or having an option to use blizzard's autoallocation, but forcing us to use blizzard's scheme seems pretty unreasonable to me.
i understand some of the arguments for it, but i don't think that you can justify this by saying that blizzard provided many more options for customization. sure, maybe it'll help balance equipment, but at the very least, we should have some say in what stats we want for our characters. why can't we have the option to allocate at least a few stat points every level so we can wear heavy armor as a wizard? (of course, if blizzard does somehow account for this, then its less of an issue, but i dont think they needed to take out options for stat allocation entirely)
QFT. Blizzard is just lazy with this. Balancing skills and stats is too much work for them.
Konfeta: Your argument can very well be made against skills, too.
O rly? Please, indulge my curiosity. And don't brush off Blizzard for being lazy, balancing such extreme numbers IS difficult. Just take a look at Diablo 2 and the damage inflation that occurred there.
I actually take offense to that Kon. Considering I have explained every aspect I have said I am unhappy with, countered your arguements when you "delved" into your territory, and said that I trust blizzard and will wait to play before a final determination is decided upon. I wouldnt lump all of us together when you are bashing the people in this thread simply for DISAGREEING with you.
You weren't one of the people I was referring to. And "delving into territory" comment was about my kneejerk reaction. Lastly, I don't bash people for disagreeing with me, I bash people when I perceive them to say ignorant things. It's one thing to dislike a change or a new direction for this game (I won't hold that against you, different strokes for different folks), it's a completely different thing to scream "DIABLO IS RUINED" every time you see a change you don't like.
Hey, Pipop was kind enough to give me an example on the same page.
i called it last week, this game would get dumbed down. Removing custom stat points is a great example.
This is unsupported, lacking in arguments, drivel. The game is slated to gain significant increase in varied skill use and monsters that actually require different tactics, the game gained a completely new aspect to character customization, and this one jumps in and bashes the game with the usual rhetoric. Bonus points for blaming consoles, though, instead of WoW. He managed to simultaneously ignore all the new things that improved depth in this game and acquired psychic abilities that let him find out every gameplay mechanic in Diablo 3, and grew an extra metric ton of brain that allowed him to nearly instantaneously met out judgment on how "dumbed down" Diablo 3 is.
Anyway, we will see how this works out. We *still* don't know if and how they are compensating base stat allocation loss with another system, and this is still pre-alpha. Everyone is throwing a fit, while with legitimate reasons, are going way overboard with the doomsaying.
I never said I liked this change. I merely pointed out the justification for it.
It would make sense for the attributes to automatically apply to the character's according stats (ex. wizard gets +1str, +2dex, +1vit, +3energy) and you'll also get 3 bonus stat points to put it into any attributes you want, it may not be a lot but it is enough to give you a small boost towards an equipment you want to use. At least this way you won't have a wizard wearing a barbarian outfit but you still have SOME customization and options for your build.
Ironically nothing Blizzard has done really bothered (no custom stats is getting there but not quite) EXCEPT the choice of choosing genders =\
Anyone who thinks that D2 stat allocation had no variety... Well, you haven't played a lot of RPGs. Especially in untwinked play, almost every class puts points in all 4 attributes; energy is kinda the redheaded stepchild that no one really wants but untwinked casters still use it at times; and personally I blame itemization making it so easy to get +mana, %mana and %regen for the lack of emphasis on energy, rather than a fundamental flaw in the system. I've just played too many RPGs where every class snatches up the same 2 stats and ignores everything else.
This really does point to a departure from the freedom to use any item that was one of the most fun aspects of D2. Time will tell if the game compensates us with freedoms in other areas.
Quoted for frickin' truth. To all those who say stats other than vita in D2 are useless: play an untwinked game. Untwinked is when you play with no outside help or outside items--using only what you find. For example, play a sword and shield paladin and see how far you get without investing into dex to maintain sufficient blocking.
Now, considering my previous words, I will concede that strength and energy could have been implemented better and given more incentive to invest into. But, again, that's already proving my previous point that it's not the stat system that is broke, but the manner in which it is implemented in D2.
Omikron8
12-10-2008, 07:19
It would make sense for the attributes to automatically apply to the character's according stats (ex. wizard gets +1str, +2dex, +1vit, +3energy) and you'll also get 3 bonus stat points to put it into any attributes you want, it may not be a lot but it is enough to give you a small boost towards an equipment you want to use. At least this way you won't have a wizard wearing a barbarian outfit but you still have SOME customization and options for your build.
Ironically nothing Blizzard has done really bothered (no custom stats is getting there but not quite) EXCEPT the choice of choosing genders =\
why shouldn't a wizard use a barbarian outfit if he has the necessary stats ? would it really harm your gameplay experience so much ?
more variety is never a bad thing
Quoted for frickin' truth. To all those who say stats other than vita in D2 are useless: play an untwinked game. Untwinked is when you play with no outside help or outside items--using only what you find. For example, play a sword and shield paladin and see how far you get without investing into dex to maintain sufficient blocking.
Now, considering my previous words, I will concede that strength and energy could have been implemented better and given more incentive to invest into. But, again, that's already proving my previous point that it's not the stat system that is broke, but the manner in which it is implemented in D2.
From the quotes I have seen on this thread, this change is probably more beneficial to untwinked players than the d2 system. Allowing the developers to construct a model by which they predict levels and thus the usable equipment allows for untwinked players to use most equipment at any area they progress to. The argument for stats allocation to aid build variety isn't as much of an issue when playing untwinked, but increased usability and suitability of items at all areas, which is a fair assumption from the given quotes, is a boost to untwinked play.
As for the change itself, I am ambivalent. I don't really see why all the dislike right now is warranted, especially as a lot of it is based on d2 assumptions. Without knowing EXACTLY what Blizzard has planned for d3 in this regard, accusing them of appealing to the lowest common denominator is nothing more than a baseless insult. Saying that the inability to max dex cripples an Amazon is baseless in the d3 context (assuming the Amazon is a d3 inclusion), because nothing is known about stat bonuses, and nothing is known about the upside to such a change.
why shouldn't a wizard use a barbarian outfit if he has the necessary stats ? would it really harm your gameplay experience so much ?
more variety is never a bad thing
Unless said barbarian outfit was class-specific, who says that a wizard cannot equip it? Why is there the assumption that simply because stats are allocated, certain non-class-specific items become mutually exclusive? They may simply require more levelling, or the usage of several items. Seeing as the game has increased item slots, I doubt it will be a problem.
Honestly, the argument for variety through necessary equipment of every available item is careless. Even with complete customisation of stats, how many sorcs do you see running around in sacred armours and thunder mauls? Many barbs wore archon plates in d2, which are easily attainable for a sorc, especially with new item slots in d3. I would rather see customisation through increased item variety (balanced with the new stat system) and skills, plus any new additions such as runes.
Robobaby
12-10-2008, 07:42
For some reason, people are throwing a fit and are equating a change to the system of stat distribution to removal of the whole thing. :rolleyes:
Because then underpowered hybrids get screwed, thus ironically, removing choice in this game as it will be forcing you to play specific glass cannon builds to do well.
On the more serious note, the entire point of balance is that different play styles don't get screwed. The whole idea is that a person can have fun playing this game no matter what their preference is - whenever it's a glass cannon Wizard or a Wizard that mixes it up in melee, etc.
I'm not sure where you are going with this but the only real problem with the skill tree in Diablo II is the way in which synergy works because it makes a number of non synergistic skills redundant. Outside of a few select skills, broadly speaking skills with no synergistic bonuses are rubbish and its not hard to see why.
As it stands you can make a melee sorc (enchant, dual dream, beast etc), bear it up and kill Hell Diablo in about 4 hits. Which is sort of funny. Bear sorc is probably the biggest killer I've ever played in this game.
Or you can put everything into synergising Lightning into a 50k death cannon.
Or you can roll an Infinity Nova sorc, pump FCR and put everything that gets remotely close to you into perpetual stun lock.
Or you roll a Fire sorc, become familiar with the awesomeness that is namelocking and killing everything off screen with splash damage.
Or you can roll a Blizzard sorc and teleport around creating minefields of death for some poor sap to navigate without getting insta gibbed.
Need money to make a killer specialist build? Roll a Meteorb since its a great MFer that you can make on the cheap.
There are plenty of viable playstyles for just this one class and it is a similar situation with other classes. What makes Diablo interesting is finding out what works and what doesn't and building towards making it as effective as possible. Pushing the game mechanics to the point where you create advantages for yourself and exploit the disadvantages of others.
All of those builds have weaknesses which can be exploited - it is the price you pay for such an extreme level of specialisation but you can roll with hybrids to cover more weaknesses at the cost of killing power if you wish. Depending on what you intend to do (MF, PvM, hell rush, PvP, whatever).
Using the above examples I have a hard time believing that sorcs have only a limited choice of playstyles. Are certain skills useless? Sure. Is it more common to max vitality at the expense of every other stat? Yeah.
The problems here are not to do with attributes or skills. People often don't put any points in Energy because it is so easy to massively increase your mana pool with items that grant +mana and x% increased maximum mana. The problem here is with items making an attribute redundant for most purposes.
If melee mana burners weren't bugged to burn something like 256 times more mana than they should do then alot more sorcs would be rolling with a hell of a lot of points in energy since Energy Shield would be an adequate defense at the expense of life. As is stands you can have a low vitality/max energy build, get hit by a melee burner, lose all your energy and your shield in one hit and then get one shotted. That bug is partly why most sorcs put an investment in Vitality even if they shoot for Energy Shield.
Any sorc who PvPs will max block and spend a significant number of points in dex because you only have to run into a Bowazon or BvC barb to realise that if you can't shut down 3/4s of their attacks you are going to die very very quickly.
What about skills like Firewall? Well if it had synergistic bonuses it might have some use but right now thats not the case. Blame synergy for that. It was effective before synergy.
I personally don't find any game fun that doesn't require you to think about what you are doing in order to make a good build. If you can do anything and make it effective then I'm not sure my choices have any sense of consequence.
If you can't control attributes in d3 then you don't need to see them. They may as well not be there at all and items don't need strength or dexterity requirements. They just need class requirements. This won't be a problem as long as the items in question aren't railroaded into canonical types. That would definitely limit the choices you can make with regards to your character's playstyle.
And if you think knife edge balance is something to strive for you must not have played games like Guild Wars. In that game you still get flavours of the month that change according to game balance updates. They just happen alot more frequently than they ever did in d2. Players adapt accordingly and always try to find ways to bend the system to their own advantage. Thats part of the fun of playing these games.
Basically, the fear is this: If Bliz wants to remove an option for customization, it's most likely because they want the affected area to be more rigidly defined. They want sorcs to never have the STR to wear heavy armor or deal melee damage, they want Barbs to never have the energy to become singers. Basically they want to be able to more tightly control player builds. I honestly cant think of any other reason to keep most aspects of the system the same, but change this particular one. The reason Bliz is likely to want to control player builds? Probably to more tightly balance classes, which is good, in a way, but can be bad, because we don't want things to be balanced to the extent where the only way to attack challenges is the way Bliz wants us to. Part of the fun of D2 was thinking up new and interesting ways to attack the challenges the game presented, and if D3 is just a series of WoWesque scripted battles which are less chaotic than choreographed then it will just be boring.
ITT random fans know what's better for D3 than the people making it. Also this:
In the new build you have no choice over stats. It's based upon your class. So, the difference now is that you will itemize to alter your stats rather than alter your stats in order to itemize. Essentially the exact same thing. They haven't removed stat customization, they've simply moved the customization into the itemization step. And, now you can have different sets based upon how you want your character to work.
I'm thinking a Barb with a 2h Hammer that adds +50 STR can also have an axe/shield combo that adds +100 VIT instead. Offense vs. defense. It actually ends up being more customizable.
FeydAway and konfeta have it right in my opinion. And with the new skill tree and skill runes there will be plentify of ways to customize your character. I really don't see the need to do something like make a wizard with the strenght of a barb, if you want to play that way just make a barb. And since the conjure tree has so many melee spells I'm sure there will be equipment for a melee wizard if you want one.
See? You thought we were taking customization AWAY, we're actually ADDING it! Wheras before, you had to tediously add those stat points up to wear any item in the game, now, we let you have certain item combinations that let you use any other item that we designed to work with the first item! Cool huh? We're also going to group these items together into "tiers" so that they're easy to keep track of!
Seriously. If the only way to wear certain items is to wear other certain items, thats the OPPOSITE of customization. It's limiting the items to certain combinations which have been preordained; which is fine, as long as they pull off the synergy. Maybe items mean less. Maybe it all works, who knows? I for one am skeptical.
Any item that would be good for your class will have stat requirements that you can meet. Yes this may mean that wizards can't wear heavy *** armor or use large two handed weapons or something to that effect. But that's the way its meant to be. That's the reason for classes in the first place. If you want to play one class like another one, then just play the other.
I don't know if this is true, but i read on a German Page that you can only invest 1 skill point in each Skill. Is this true?
I am very disapointed about that "Character creation", i think it is the totally wrong way!
Mad Mantis
12-10-2008, 14:41
Yes this may mean that wizards can't wear heavy *** armor or use large two handed weapons or something to that effect. But that's the way its meant to be.
This is the heart of the matter. This is exactly what people are arguing against. People don't want to be restricted to a certain role. Not everyone wants to play a Fireball Sorc. If I want to melee it up with a Sorc in D2 I can. Playing a Barb will not give me the same gameplay as a Melee Sorc. They are cutting this option out.
I'm really glad that they introduced a new skill system and added the runes. This should allow for more customization in the skills and a lot of possible builds. But why does this have to come at the cost of attribute customization? Instead of making it a much more rewarding path to make a unique character they just cut it out. Give attributes the same treatment as skills.
As for making up deficiencies with items, just think about a hypothetical situation. I'm playing as an Archer WD, focusing on using the attack panflute. My character is coming up against the Siege Breaker. They have "balanced" the game to make Barbs able to melee the SB and the ranger-class to defeat it with arrows. Now if I want to defeat it with my panflute using WD I have to hope that I'll be able to find items that give my WD the stats of a ranger. Because only rangers should be able to attack with ranged attacks. That is not increasing my play options, it is limiting them.
Sein Schatten
12-10-2008, 14:52
I don't know if this is true, but i read on a German Page that you can only invest 1 skill point in each Skill. Is this true?
I am very disapointed about that "Character creation", i think it is the totally wrong way!
Some skills can only have 1 point other can have up to 20 points. It varies. ;)
@Robobaby: Great post. :thumbup:
How incredibly stupid can Blizzard be... Now we have one of the worst WoW-aspects here in D3...
Byebye variety, hello linear game-play...
This was one of the fundamental parts of D1 and D2 for me...
No D3 for me.
Assigning attribute points was one of the most tedious things about D2 for me so I'm kinda glad they took it out. I hated accidently putting 10-20 points more in dex or whatever than you had to and feeling like you had to restart your entire character.
I can understand why people don't like the idea, though. I wasn't one to make melee sorcs etc. but I know some people enjoyed the challenge.
Brother Laz
12-10-2008, 15:59
THIS IS A GREAT THING.
In D2, you had one 'good' way to spend your points and a lot of 'noob' ways.
You can still make a battlemage, you just need more +strength items. It worked in D1, which didn't have automatic stat points but it did have hard caps on stats. The sorcerer could have no more than about 50 base strength. Yet if you collected enough +strength items, you could wear full plate.
So the battlemage build requires a wee bit more thinking and effort, but in exchange they got rid of the HORRIBLE HORRIBLE system where better items made your points in strength, dexterity and energy useless so you had to reroll.
Good move Blizzard -- getting rid of an outdated system that only served to ruin newbie characters without adding much if any value to expert players.
without adding much if any value to expert players.
BS... It added tons and tons of fun and replay value for me... Without this awesome customization system the game would not have lasted even a year for me...
Omikron8
12-10-2008, 17:39
But that's the way its meant to be. That's the reason for classes in the first place. If you want to play one class like another one, then just play the other.
no that's not how it is, that is NOT diablo, not even diablo 1 had those restrictions
Omikron8
12-10-2008, 17:41
Assigning attribute points was one of the most tedious things about D2 for me so I'm kinda glad they took it out. I hated accidently putting 10-20 points more in dex or whatever than you had to and feeling like you had to restart your entire character.
I can understand why people don't like the idea, though. I wasn't one to make melee sorcs etc. but I know some people enjoyed the challenge.
once again the issue there was not with the stats but with not being to respec them, in hellgate they had stat retrainers and it was one of the few (very few) things the game got right
have stat retrainers cost a certain amount of gold or have a certain number available per character
As it stands you can make a melee sorc (enchant, dual dream, beast etc), bear it up and kill Hell Diablo in about 4 hits. Which is sort of funny. Bear sorc is probably the biggest killer I've ever played in this game.
95% of the players would not be capable of seeing this build if the game wasn't a dupefest. And even then, for every player I have met who had breached the high rune barrier, I have met 20 who didn't.
Now, I never built a melee sorc untwinked, so I don't know if it actually works out in Hell. Correct me if I am wrong here.
The problems here are not to do with attributes or skills. People often don't put any points in Energy because it is so easy to massively increase your mana pool with items that grant +mana and x% increased maximum mana. The problem here is with items making an attribute redundant for most purposes.
The problem I am talking about becomes expressed when you tone down the items to prevent the damage inflation, and if your attributes become significant in determining your character's actual power. Which, from what I have seen, they have in Diablo 3. Again, I point to the Wizard's skill that looks like it massively boosts your damage output received from Willpower.
Yes, I see the problem with going overboard with the streamlining, that the game could easily become ultimately "click away at your skill tree randomly and you have an effective build". But in my eyes, the other extreme is just as bad as this.
I personally don't find any game fun that doesn't require you to think about what you are doing in order to make a good build. If you can do anything and make it effective then I'm not sure my choices have any sense of consequence.
If you can't control attributes in d3 then you don't need to see them. They may as well not be there at all and items don't need strength or dexterity requirements. They just need class requirements. This won't be a problem as long as the items in question aren't railroaded into canonical types. That would definitely limit the choices you can make with regards to your character's playstyle.
Removing base stat allocation doesn't remove the ability to make crap builds and the ability to make good builds.
Next, attribute control has NOT been removed. Until we know enough about the game to see that it will have no other way to control your attributes, to equip an awesome bow on your witchdoctor or a wear a plate/maul combo on your Wizard, base attribute allocation being gone doesn't mean you can't make quirky characters.
For all we know, Wizards might be able to wear best plate with moderate stat boosting items (or -%requirement items, or something like that) and that Barbarians have a massive overflow of strength that gives them other advantages outside wearing plate.
If the attribute control is truly gone and will not be adequately compensated, yes, I will be angry, and I will b*tch about it incessantly just as badly as the people who I accuse of doing this. However, until we get more information, I am going with the optimistic view on Diablo 3.
And if you think knife edge balance is something to strive for you must not have played games like Guild Wars. In that game you still get flavours of the month that change according to game balance updates. They just happen alot more frequently than they ever did in d2. Players adapt accordingly and always try to find ways to bend the system to their own advantage. Thats part of the fun of playing these games.
I played WoW. Let me tell you, the bullcrap that balance was in that game and how rapidly it was patched in and out still scares me. The last thing I want to see Diablo 3 become is a perpetual balance swinging machine. There are plenty of ways to keep a game fresh that doesn't involve arbitrarily forcing people to remake characters every balance patch. (This isn't the same as the idea of making new characters before anyone pins that at me. Part of Diablo 2 fun for me was making 7-8 characters and playing them simultaneously)
This is the heart of the matter. This is exactly what people are arguing against. People don't want to be restricted to a certain role. Not everyone wants to play a Fireball Sorc. If I want to melee it up with a Sorc in D2 I can. Playing a Barb will not give me the same gameplay as a Melee Sorc. They are cutting this option out.
This is the heart of my argument. Until we get a straight confirmation from Jay or see enough of the game to know that they are specifically removing freedom of equipment, I don't believe that plate casters or throw barbarians or bow witchdoctors are impossible. There are ways to give that freedom without base stat allocation.
Haha look at you people talking about "customization".
You do know that if you want customization you'll have to sacrifice it too?
Look at the "battle sorc" for example. Sure you have a choice of being a melee sorc but the skills that you can use will be extremely narrowed down. Instead of having an entire skill tree at your command and a few from others, you'll only be able to use 1 skill from each tree (enchant, mana shield, frozen armor) and normal melee attack. Basically the only thing you can do throughout the entire course of the game with that character is cast enchant/shield/armor and melee attack, then 4 minutes later you recast all your buffers again and continue melee. Since you've taken on an "opposite" build, you are no longer entitled to choice of any skills you want, you are basically forced to add points in X skills just to survive.
Not to mention the toughest obstacle of all: Not quitting halfway or not quitting within a couple days of playing due to realization that the build is no longer "fun" and lost its charm, that it just boils down to being a waste of time and might as well delete your character to make room.
no that's not how it is, that is NOT diablo, not even diablo 1 had those restrictions
Does Blizzards description of a Wizard have them running around in full plate and meleeing stuff? No I don't think it does. Wizards are meant to be a magical type character, while barbs are meant to melee. The classes exist because they have different identities and play styles. There will still be plenty of different ways to play a class, you just won't be able to make one that goes against the total descripton and nature of the class.
ITT random fans know what's better for D3 than the people making it. Also this:
FeydAway and konfeta have it right in my opinion. And with the new skill tree and skill runes there will be plentify of ways to customize your character. I really don't see the need to do something like make a wizard with the strenght of a barb, if you want to play that way just make a barb. And since the conjure tree has so many melee spells I'm sure there will be equipment for a melee wizard if you want one.
the complete opposite of my opinion. If you want to play that way, just makae that class? 100% disagree. A reason they have classes is so people can play how they like to play. A barb play DRASTICALLY different than a melee sorc. I am sure I am not alone in this, but I hate the barb. But I love playing a melee sorc. I dont want to make a barb when i want to swing a weapon. Last time I checked a sorc has 2 hands and they can hold weapons...why not let us use them.
I seems like in this game they are giving more emphasis on making your spells stronger which goes hand in hand with "leveling up". They want your char to actually gain power when they get bigger and select how they gain power, and thats how it should be and is in D2 with the stats. I know its a fantasy realm, but kind of hypocrisy.
Telzen, to be fair, platemail totting giant weapon using Sorcs should not be shut down. The fear of this part is what pisses people of (and will piss me off it if actually happens). In this situation, the game will suffer in terms of player choice if these builds are eradicated.
I am not arguing against out-of-archetype builds. I am arguing against the notion that base stat allocation removal equates to removal of those builds.
Yes, it might end up that way. But, just as easily, it may not.
Omikron8
12-10-2008, 19:10
Haha look at you people talking about "customization".
You do know that if you want customization you'll have to sacrifice it too?
Look at the "battle sorc" for example. Sure you have a choice of being a melee sorc but the skills that you can use will be extremely narrowed down. Instead of having an entire skill tree at your command and a few from others, you'll only be able to use 1 skill from each tree (enchant, mana shield, frozen armor) and normal melee attack. Basically the only thing you can do throughout the entire course of the game with that character is cast enchant/shield/armor and melee attack, then 4 minutes later you recast all your buffers again and continue melee. Since you've taken on an "opposite" build, you are no longer entitled to choice of any skills you want, you are basically forced to add points in X skills just to survive.
Not to mention the toughest obstacle of all: Not quitting halfway or not quitting within a couple days of playing due to realization that the build is no longer "fun" and lost its charm, that it just boils down to being a waste of time and might as well delete your character to make room.
uhm so you pretty much just said that if you want a specific build you need a particular set of skill investment
duh ?
so if i'm a frenzy barb i need to invest in frenzy and mastery ? what's the problem here ?
melee sorcs have plenty of skills to max out
enchant
warmth
static field
fire mastery
light mastery
teleport
cold armors
the complete opposite of my opinion. If you want to play that way, just makae that class? 100% disagree. A reason they have classes is so people can play how they like to play. A barb play DRASTICALLY different than a melee sorc. I am sure I am not alone in this, but I hate the barb. But I love playing a melee sorc. I dont want to make a barb when i want to swing a weapon. Last time I checked a sorc has 2 hands and they can hold weapons...why not let us use them.
i think blizzard tries to go to more of a rpg way like other rpg games. i played alot of them and i suppose they want to be realistic about it. a wizard with giant axe and full plate mail just look weird and unrealistic, only warrior should be able to do wear those. i think this stays true in wow, gw, or even other mmorpgs?
u can still make a melee sorc but just prob wearing less heavier armor (which means less defense) and less heavier weapon. it just dat the skills wont be able to compensate the melee aspect cuz it's a wizard at the first place. (only a few skills that may enchant ur weapons.) if u want to make melee wizard just to have fun, then he shouldnt have the access to full items selection compare to barbarian, and barbarians shouldnt be able to read magical runes to cast spell. like u can use enigma to teleport, then wats so unique about the teleportation skill the sorc has?
melee wizard should be underpowered since dats not how wizards ultilizes their skills. i honetly think that in d2 where ur not a pally yet u can get holy shock from item looks retarded. without dat runeword, u can max all those fire mastery enchant skill and use a sword to hit with uit, ur still meleeing right? since ur meleeing with a range class, ur not suppose to dominate the game right?
Mad Mantis
12-10-2008, 19:36
i played alot of them and i suppose they want to be realistic about it. a wizard with giant axe and full plate mail just look weird and unrealistic, only warrior should be able to do wear those.
That is a D&D convention that doesn't need to be enforced.
since ur meleeing with a range class, ur not suppose to dominate the game right?
Nobody is talking about wanting to dominate games with these types of set-ups. They just want the ability to wield all the weapons and wear all the armors. After that they use the skills available to them to deal damage and cover weaknesses.
Fleshpeeler
12-10-2008, 20:33
I don't think it's that big of a deal. Diablo3 definitely won't be another WOW. I think it's a welcome change, at least now i don't have to go to some online guide to know where best to distribute my skills if i'm going to be a, for example, whirlwind barb.
They've been making bestselling games for nearly 15 years now, i'm sure they made the right decision and if it is wrong, i'm sure they will change it for a good reason.
refraxion
12-10-2008, 20:44
D3 is still about customization, you can choose character genders, use runes to provide added effects to spells, have gems to change a weapon's abilities.
How exactly does this separate itself from WoW?
Stats was a good part of D2, people had some variety in builds + items + skills. Now it's just going to be items+skills.
uhm so you pretty much just said that if you want a specific build you need a particular set of skill investment
duh ?
so if i'm a frenzy barb i need to invest in frenzy and mastery ? what's the problem here ?
That's exactly what I've said, so why question me on something you already know?
If it's because you've missed the point, I'm stating that customizations will force you to put points in skills, not because you want to, but because you need to in order to survive. If you're upset because D3 won't let you customize your points, then the build of which you've done with your own hands also forced the same fate on you, the only freedom that you have is rolling towards that fate and once you do, you're no longer entitled to the freedom of that character. That's probably the point that you've missed.
melee sorcs have plenty of skills to max out
enchant
warmth
static field
fire mastery
light mastery
teleport
cold armors
Plenty of skills to max out, but not plenty of skills to "use". Doesn't matter if you max the passives, you can't use it anyways because its all for synergy.
Stats was a good part of D2, people had some variety in builds + items + skills. Now it's just going to be items+skills.
That's a gross oversimplification of the situation at hand. It would be correct if d3 were identical to d2 save the removal of stat allocation, but even at this juncture it is obvious that this will not be the case. Stat allocation is and always has been an illusionary choice -- most builds simply require strength to equip items (in many cases none with anni/torch), dex for max block (again with WWs, rfrost, torch/anni, is minimal) and the rest into vita. Even offbeat characters like melee sorcs do not go around lugging high strength items. Without understanding stat bonuses and how item requirements work, making a fuss without giving Blizzard the slightest benefit of the doubt is silly. If getting rid of an illusionary choice presents a greater wealth of items, skills and runes balanced by stat allocations, the benefits outweight the costs, in my opinion.
Simply put, saying a pally ranger would not work in d3 as there would be a loss of control over his dex is ridiculous, unless there is a global assumption that d3 is going to conform to d2's mechanics.
Robobaby
12-10-2008, 22:16
95% of the players would not be capable of seeing this build if the game wasn't a dupefest. And even then, for every player I have met who had breached the high rune barrier, I have met 20 who didn't.
Now, I never built a melee sorc untwinked, so I don't know if it actually works out in Hell. Correct me if I am wrong here.
Dual Dream/Beast Bear Sorc not only works out in Hell difficulty but it is probably one of the most hard hitting builds I've ever seen. 130k damage per hit was pretty crazy.
However it is hard to think of a Bear sorc in terms of being untwinked because it is only possible with very specific gear (i.e. Beast runeword for the whole Bear thing). Suffice it to say, playing most builds in d2 and trying to make them optimal without trading duped or botted runes is for most intents and purposes impossible. You could manually play d2 every day for the rest of your life and never acquire all the runes and rares and charms to make a truly optimal light sorc or bear sorc or blizzsorc or anything really. Thats just the way it is and all you have to do is look at the numbers.
Criticism of d2 being a dupefest is an issue to do with the rarity of high runes which have such an unbelievably low chance to drop that it necessitates that people acquire them by less than fair means. Otherwise a large part of the game (including pretty much all PvP) becomes off limits for the vast majority of players.
I personally think Bear sorc is fun if only because it is designed to do one thing but do it so well you have to just laugh at how ludicrously efficient it is. And it is incredibly efficient.
The problem I am talking about becomes expressed when you tone down the items to prevent the damage inflation, and if your attributes become significant in determining your character's actual power. Which, from what I have seen, they have in Diablo 3. Again, I point to the Wizard's skill that looks like it massively boosts your damage output received from Willpower.
Currently, synergising Lightning by dumping points in Nova and Charged Bolt already massively boosts your damage output in Lightning. 20 points in Charged Bolt will practically double your damage for instance. Once you have fully synergized Lightning then you pile on items which can potentially quadruple that output.
Same for the infamous Enigmadin. Fully synergizing Blessed Hammers and maxing Concentration aura alone will massively increase your hammer damage. The +skills from items will pretty much double that all over again.
I do not deny that items are probably the most determining factor in terms of what you can and cant get away with in d2 character building but again this has less to do with skills and more to do with the treasure system that makes incredibly rare items, incredibly game breakingingly powerful.
Yet if you were to tone down the items or make them more plentiful then the treasure system would somehow lose its veneer don't you think? The devs have already stated that d2's treasure system is perfect and I agree in the sense that it makes people compulsively chance unbelievably low odds time and again for the 1 in a million chance to find a rune in order to make 1 item that makes 1 build possible. If anything it is an excellent way to keep people playing and I have long maintained that Diablo PvM is fundamentally about gambling and the illusion that is gambler's fallacy.
Yes, I see the problem with going overboard with the streamlining, that the game could easily become ultimately "click away at your skill tree randomly and you have an effective build". But in my eyes, the other extreme is just as bad as this.
No arguement here. It is a fine balance but before gutting d2 mechanics completely it is worth looking at what keeps people coming back for more in a game that is now approaching 9 years old. Apart from the way synergy works at the moment the skill tree is quite a solid means of character progression. Its just a shame that synergy amps up the damage of certain skills so much that it makes most if not all of the other skills in the same tree completely redundant.
Next, attribute control has NOT been removed. Until we know enough about the game to see that it will have no other way to control your attributes, to equip an awesome bow on your witchdoctor or a wear a plate/maul combo on your Wizard, base attribute allocation being gone doesn't mean you can't make quirky characters.
Yes this all hinges on items once again.
If the attribute control is truly gone and will not be adequately compensated, yes, I will be angry, and I will b*tch about it incessantly just as badly as the people who I accuse of doing this. However, until we get more information, I am going with the optimistic view on Diablo 3.
Personally I see no reason to be negative either until more information becomes available. It is clear diablo 3 will be a very different game. I'm not concerned over whether it will be for the better or worse at this point because I can still play diablo 2 if I want to.
Brother Laz
12-10-2008, 22:40
BS... It added tons and tons of fun and replay value for me... Without this awesome customization system the game would not have lasted even a year for me...
Right.
STAT CUSTOMISATION IN D2
- Just enough into str and/or dex to wear items, all remaining points into vit.
- You put a point into energy? Lol.
- You are just starting out, so you don't have any of the +str items? Looks like you'll have to put more points into str to wear your items. Then when you get hold of those +str items, you now have too much strength and not enough vitality. Reroll.
- You want to put a point into energy to make the painful early levels until Insight go by faster? Your build is now suboptimal. Reroll.
- You want to make a melee sorc? Sorry but putting all your points into str and dex still won't give you a good melee sorc. What you need is aura items and Enchant. And just enough into str and/or dex to wear them, all remaining points into vit.
- You want to make a melee necro? Poison dagger will do 99% of your damage. Put just enough into str and/or dex to wear items, all remaining points into vit.
- Bow necro? You have no skills to support you. Max str or not, your necro will be useless. Reroll.
STAT POINTS DO NOT ADD CUSTOMISATION. YOU JUST HAVE TO INVEST THEM IN A CERTAIN WAY TO MATCH YOUR BUILD. THAT'S NOT ADDING OPTIONS, THAT'S JUST A MANDATORY STEP TO MAKE YOUR BUILD WORK.
Good move on Blizzard's part to get rid of this outdated relic that serves no useful purpose.
Omikron8
12-10-2008, 23:12
^
another person that wants to trash stats because the bonuses provided by them were heavily favored towards vitality
instead of actually making each stat distinct and worthwhile
stillman
12-10-2008, 23:34
But are you guys SURE that you won't be able to make those original builds, like an axe wizard? What if Blizzard simply adds a lot of really high str jewelry to make it possible? So your axe wizard just puts on one really nice str ring giving her +65 str and you got yourself a different build.
(I'll have to read the whole thread after work. Sorry if someone else noted this already.)
Edit: Looks like Konfeta mentioned it. But no one payed much attention. I just don't see why it has to be the end of the world. There's all kinds of things Blizzard could do to fix most of these problems.
Maybe there will be some armors that have -40% requirements. Thus, your WD or wiz can be decked out in full plate at lev 12 just as you wanted. You just need to track down one of those armors that allow it.
Maybe there will be optional quests where you can turn 20 str poitns into 20 willpower points. Do this in each difficulty and you got your mage barb...
What about passive skills that lower item requirements? You could max those out and wear whater you want.
Does this auto stat thing really have to be so terrible?
But are you guys SURE that you won't be able to make those original builds, like an axe wizard? What if Blizzard simply adds a lot of really high str jewelry to make it possible? So your axe wizard just puts on one really nice str ring giving her +65 str and you got yourself a different build.
(I'll have to read the whole thread after work. Sorry if someone else noted this already.)
Yeah, that's mostly the only way then, to put huge stat bonuses on items so you could build your char the way you want. I'm not sure what to think of this decission yet, cause in one hand, it diminishes the strategic part of stat placing, but it could also simplify things greatly. The only weakness I could find is that they will automatically place stats as they think its necessary.
For example, Wizard would recieve probably 3 out of 5 stat points into energy, while Barb into strenght
Right.
STAT CUSTOMISATION IN D2
- Just enough into str and/or dex to wear items, all remaining points into vit.
- You put a point into energy? Lol.
- You are just starting out, so you don't have any of the +str items? Looks like you'll have to put more points into str to wear your items. Then when you get hold of those +str items, you now have too much strength and not enough vitality. Reroll.
- You want to put a point into energy to make the painful early levels until Insight go by faster? Your build is now suboptimal. Reroll.
- You want to make a melee sorc? Sorry but putting all your points into str and dex still won't give you a good melee sorc. What you need is aura items and Enchant. And just enough into str and/or dex to wear them, all remaining points into vit.
- You want to make a melee necro? Poison dagger will do 99% of your damage. Put just enough into str and/or dex to wear items, all remaining points into vit.
- Bow necro? You have no skills to support you. Max str or not, your necro will be useless. Reroll.
STAT POINTS DO NOT ADD CUSTOMISATION. YOU JUST HAVE TO INVEST THEM IN A CERTAIN WAY TO MATCH YOUR BUILD. THAT'S NOT ADDING OPTIONS, THAT'S JUST A MANDATORY STEP TO MAKE YOUR BUILD WORK.
Good move on Blizzard's part to get rid of this outdated relic that serves no useful purpose.
Right. Because no-one would ever dream of making a suboptimal build on purpose. A 'melee sorc' is already suboptimal compared to other builds for sorcs and other classes in any given worthwhile situation... yet if someone wants to make something even more suboptimal like a titan sorc because, you know, they enjoy a challenge and recognise the only real personal challenges are contrived self-imposed ones? "... useless. reroll"
But are you guys SURE that you won't be able to make those original builds, like an axe wizard? What if Blizzard simply adds a lot of really high str jewelry to make it possible? So your axe wizard just puts on one really nice str ring giving her +65 str and you got yourself a different build.
That's not going to happen. Now if it takes an entire set to accomplish this, you're forced down a very narrow, rigid path. Now the inclusion of unique items which are wearable for use outside of their normal classes is likely but again this is very much reliant on Blizzard hand-holding. If the variation hasn't been actively invisioned and implemented, it won't be possible.
Currently, synergising Lightning by dumping points in Nova and Charged Bolt already massively boosts your damage output in Lightning. 20 points in Charged Bolt will practically double your damage for instance. Once you have fully synergized Lightning then you pile on items which can potentially quadruple that output.
Same for the infamous Enigmadin. Fully synergizing Blessed Hammers and maxing Concentration aura alone will massively increase your hammer damage. The +skills from items will pretty much double that all over again.
I do not deny that items are probably the most determining factor in terms of what you can and cant get away with in d2 character building but again this has less to do with skills and more to do with the treasure system that makes incredibly rare items, incredibly game breakingingly powerful.
Yet if you were to tone down the items or make them more plentiful then the treasure system would somehow lose its veneer don't you think? The devs have already stated that d2's treasure system is perfect and I agree in the sense that it makes people compulsively chance unbelievably low odds time and again for the 1 in a million chance to find a rune in order to make 1 item that makes 1 build possible. If anything it is an excellent way to keep people playing and I have long maintained that Diablo PvM is fundamentally about gambling and the illusion that is gambler's fallacy.
So what we have here is more powerful stats combined with more powerful items. While an ES sorc could have pumped energy and become nearly unstoppable, in Diablo 3 this situation could be compounded with a well equipped Wizard stacking the power of items with power of freely assigned stats. You think 1.10 Infinity sorcs do a lot of damage? Now imagine if they could pump energy and gain a sizable percentage boost to spelldamge per energy point.
If Diablo 3 will have massively powerful items and they are to keep the skills as we saw them so far (incredibly powerful effects, large percentage scaling) as well as Skill Runes, allowing players a full range of base attribute assigning will result in tens, if not more, of variances of hammerdin builds galore.
Blizzard will be forced to respond by either indiscriminate nerfing or scaling the monsters to match the absurdly high power builds, screwing everyone over.
By controlling the items and majority of attribute assigning, they can control and curb the power curve across which the builds are spread out ensuring:
A. That we still have unique skills such as those seen on the Wizard, (willpower/vitality effect on spelldamage increase, etc.)
B. Ensuring that stats have meaning (if you drink a +20 willpower potion, you will notice it in your killing speed)
C. Prevention absurdly powerful stacking combos which allows them to maintain reasonable monster balance and increasing the number of viable builds.
As it stands, this ensures that more builds are viable without mega rare items. The negative aspect of it, barring any other changes than what we have seen, is that quirky builds heavily based on base attribute assignment, or basically classes using items out of their archetype, are made rarer.
If Blizzard sets the new system up so that these quirky builds are still possible, the end result is vastly greater customization and character variance than what we got in D2, most of that customization will not be restricted to the few who are absurdly rich.
Therefore, if Blizzard pulls this off successfully, we will still maintain the main benefit of the old system (out-of-archetype builds), with benefits of the new (more interesting/unique/varied skills, greater impact of stats), at loss of how that customization is performed. Loss of an avenue, but more customization and variance.
I can live with that. Too much freedom hurts more than it pleases, just ask the free market.
This is good. Outside of a small group of dedicated players, most D2 players used the old, tired stat allocation of enough str. and dex. for items, and the rest in vitality. I have no problems with stats being automatically assigned, and have faith in Blizzard that this gameplay change will not hinder character build customization in the least.
It sounds like we're going to have a lot of skills at our disposal for every class in Diablo 3, and with the addition of skill runes it looks like we're going to have a lot of leeway in terms of creating play styles that will satisfy everyone.
thats my first post on this forum, however I read a lot about d3 and the changes that the devs have announced.
in the matter of the auto-assigned atributes it is really something intresting.
some people are really getting mad over this subject in the matter of the fact that they claim to be unnable to build the characthers the way they want.
But
you know that some people say
"How in the @#$% am I supossed to build my melee wizard?"
well
maybe Jay made his own plans too. Just like d2 LoD many itens were disgned for specific characthers as many of you know, so maybe they way of counter-ballancing this lost is the advent of new itens such as an offensive staff for melee wizards or maybe throwing knifes for ranged barbs.
however
the thruth is most of the complainers shouldn't be talkinf @#$% about the game taht not even came out yet.
just wait and see with your own eyes, because ,at least I hope, that de devs Know what they are doing and I its probably the most efficient way to make a wonderfull game such as D3 gotta be
my appologies for thouse who I might have offended!
thx!
xD
Well who knows, maybe having auto-attributes is better than a revised attribute system.
Most people do not agree with some of the suggested changes for the stats (str adds a little HP, and a decent amount of damage, energy increases magic damage) and quite a few hated it.
So the only way to satisfy everyone is to bring back the flawed stat system where everyone has a generic build.
Wow that 1 forumer was right, people really are brainwashed by D2 and accept flaws as a positive feature.
that is indeed true
people are brainwashed
and i really think auto stats can be better
because in full criative mode, as they call, everybody end up with the same points in the end
thats how cruel is the life
and people dont stop complaining
Honestly, I get both sides of auto-allocation, and it makes sense.
The only reason I'm against it is because it severely limits the ability to create obscure builds. Really, that is what the problem boils down to.
I mean, some people are saying early game pvp is a problem, but really I see that being more skill based as a result because everyone has the same stats.
But if I can't get enough Strength as a Wizard to wield some crazy weapon/heavy armor to make an Enchant Wizard (just an example), it's going to really take away from the game. So really, my beef isn't with auto allocation, but with the lack flexibility such a system presents to character creation.
Stats were a flawed system in Diablo2. True. However that is mostly because the system wasn't extremely well done and runewords gave ridiculous stat bonuses while remaining dominant equipment making them the only really desirable items. THAT is what broke the stat system, no the stats initially. The system could be reiterated and improved instead of just taking player control away.
So as stated above, there simply needs to be an option. You can't just take away a key aspect of character customization and make it inflexible while keeping it's former limitations. (Str/Dex requirements) That's just detrimental to the players experience in the long run.
But if I can't get enough Strength as a Wizard to wield some crazy weapon/heavy armor to make an Enchant Wizard (just an example), it's going to really take away from the game. So really, my beef isn't with auto allocation, but with the lack flexibility such a system presents to character creation. Does it matter if there even isn't gonna be enchant skill? There seems to be conjured weapon skills for Wizard, so if you want your melee touch for Wizard, you will magically create weapons to fight for you, that is "realism" (if you place some realism to fantasy game).
You couldn't really make a melee sorc in d2 either.. At least when d2 used to be d2 which means before LOD and the weird skill/synergy things and overpowered runewords.
Well you could make it, but good luck getting past normal. And thats how it should be, a Wizard should use abilities that he/she is strong at, the spells. Why start training as a Wizard in the first place if you desire to be a melee fighter?
Stats were a flawed system in Diablo2. True. However that is mostly because the system wasn't extremely well done and runewords gave ridiculous stat bonuses while remaining dominant equipment making them the only really desirable items. THAT is what broke the stat system, no the stats initially. The system could be reiterated and improved instead of just taking player control away. They were flawed in LOD, before LOD they were actually quite fantastic, but still quite useless. You had the same str/dex for weapon rest on vitality on barb.. pretty much. If you had the items your sorc had base strenght/dex and rest on vita/energy. So basically there wasn't much variety afterall. Imo it wasn't that much of a key aspect.. if you wanted a good character, you didn't have 500 strenght on a sorc.
Mad Mantis
13-10-2008, 09:30
Does this auto stat thing really have to be so terrible?
No, it doesn't. As with all things there could be something good underneath the surface. But now you (and most others in favor of this) are turning skills and items into stat points just for the sake of having an automated stat point system. You are actively calling for overpowered items just so other builds can reach the Barbs level of strenth (just an example).
Wow that 1 forumer was right, people really are brainwashed by D2 and accept flaws as a positive feature.
Funny how the detractors of changes are often being portrayed as being brainwashed, whining, ignorant, wanting D2.5 and other such wonderful terms. Yet in this case the people who are in favor of the auto-stats are the ones hanging on to the D2 model like there is no possibility for improvement. Every one just assumes that stats in D3 would be similar to the ones in D2 and that there are such overpowered items as in D2. I agree with IcyYou that it is mostly the runewords that broke the attribute system.
they added respec system for stats+skills? why need to force auto stat? respec solves all problems+fixes both sides
when you make a char they should have two modes auto stat(for new ppl) or manual stat(ppl who know what they're doing
Right.
STAT CUSTOMISATION IN D2
- Just enough into str and/or dex to wear items, all remaining points into vit.
- You put a point into energy? Lol.
- You are just starting out, so you don't have any of the +str items? Looks like you'll have to put more points into str to wear your items. Then when you get hold of those +str items, you now have too much strength and not enough vitality. Reroll.
- You want to put a point into energy to make the painful early levels until Insight go by faster? Your build is now suboptimal. Reroll.
- You want to make a melee sorc? Sorry but putting all your points into str and dex still won't give you a good melee sorc. What you need is aura items and Enchant. And just enough into str and/or dex to wear them, all remaining points into vit.
- You want to make a melee necro? Poison dagger will do 99% of your damage. Put just enough into str and/or dex to wear items, all remaining points into vit.
- Bow necro? You have no skills to support you. Max str or not, your necro will be useless. Reroll.
STAT POINTS DO NOT ADD CUSTOMISATION. YOU JUST HAVE TO INVEST THEM IN A CERTAIN WAY TO MATCH YOUR BUILD. THAT'S NOT ADDING OPTIONS, THAT'S JUST A MANDATORY STEP TO MAKE YOUR BUILD WORK.
Good move on Blizzard's part to get rid of this outdated relic that serves no useful purpose.
in 1.09, + 540+str +3.5k life +max block +50% lifesteal +50% dr +normal lifesteal could kill alot of all vita melee with much higher life
they added respec system for stats+skills? why need to force auto stat? respec solves all problems+fixes both sides
when you make a char they should have two modes auto stat(for new ppl) or manual stat(ppl who know what they're doing
in 1.09, + 540+str +3.5k life +max block +50% lifesteal +50% dr +normal lifesteal could kill alot of all vita melee with much higher life
Thats because life leech sucked butt in pvp. An amazon could keep shooting at you while you WW over her and just leech back the life... yea right.
Only good pvp in d2 history was before lod.. then it was a little more about personal skills than items since there wasn't anything overpowered/damage reduce/absorb and that kind of stuff involved. Also in BVB you were able to beat S/S barbs with 2 handers if you knew what you were doing.. of course a skilld S/S had an advantage but it was still very much possible.
Niyougegema
13-10-2008, 11:23
um couldnt you have an option to have auto-stat on or not... that seems logical?!
Back in D2C (which I, like Akse, consider the real Diablo 2) I liked to put around 100 or so VIT on my Barbs and just enough DEX for the weapon and then mash everything into STR.
This way I would get crazy damage and to me, that was way more fun and efficient than having a 110 STR Lancer... (-40% req Ornate Plate)...
Same would go for the few Amazons I made. Just pump the DEX to insane levels and watch that 20% IAS 130 damage Gothic Bow feel like a 200 damage one...
Yes, I played HC.
This is good. Outside of a small group of dedicated players, most D2 players used the old, tired stat allocation of enough str. and dex. for items, and the rest in vitality. I have no problems with stats being automatically assigned, and have faith in Blizzard that this gameplay change will not hinder character build customization in the least.
It sounds like we're going to have a lot of skills at our disposal for every class in Diablo 3, and with the addition of skill runes it looks like we're going to have a lot of leeway in terms of creating play styles that will satisfy everyone.
Agree with you 100%
Seems like every change Bliz shows to the public, that will inevitably improve the game (for reasons that may not be entirely divulged at the time), there is a group of people who seem to know for sure that it will ruin the game... even though they don't know nearly enough information about the game to make that statement. Plus, every time I see a post saying "Oh they F'd up, now I won't buy D3" ...I shake my head.
Back in D2C (which I, like Akse, consider the real Diablo 2) I liked to put around 100 or so VIT on my Barbs and just enough DEX for the weapon and then mash everything into STR.
This way I would get crazy damage and to me, that was way more fun and efficient than having a 110 STR Lancer... (-40% req Ornate Plate)...
Same would go for the few Amazons I made. Just pump the DEX to insane levels and watch that 20% IAS 130 damage Gothic Bow feel like a 200 damage one...
Yes, I played HC.
Yeah well everything kinda depended on what kind of luck you got with items. If you had 330 lance 110 str was fine and you still felt so overpowered :) With ama 150 bow and you could do around 100vit rest dex build. Well anyways the earlier days of D2 were about surviving those lags and timeouts :) Barb with high life was good for that, many also made sword barbs to have shield for extra protection. (back then sword 2h damage wasn't much higher than 1h)
Well anyways, there was 2 paths, high damage low life, average damage high life or something like that. I'm quite sure that can easily be modified by gear choices or gem/enchantment choices.
Sein Schatten
13-10-2008, 14:32
and i really think auto stats can be better
No.
Auto stats = Tried and true D2 skill allocation.
User stats = Tried and true D2 skill allocation + any variation you can come up with.
Apocalypse
13-10-2008, 14:50
this is a seriously bad idea imo. it seems to me a move like this is made to make the devs job easier when it comes to balance. i hate that we are gonna miss out on alot of possible builds now because of this.
as others have said it remains to be seen how it will work in the end but as of now i hate it, i like picking where i want the points. i understand that most builds were built the same anyway but it took time to get to that point, alot of experimenting took place before everyone did the same damn thing, now we all get to be the same(save a few skill points) from day 1
Excuse me for my iGNorAncE but I can't see the pros of this action except for making the desingers life a bit easier.
Since I can't get my self to read the 14 pages of this thread, can someone please point it out to me?
Apocalypse
13-10-2008, 15:48
Agree with you 100%
Seems like every change Bliz shows to the public, that will inevitably improve the game (for reasons that may not be entirely divulged at the time), there is a group of people who seem to know for sure that it will ruin the game... even though they don't know nearly enough information about the game to make that statement. Plus, every time I see a post saying "Oh they F'd up, now I won't buy D3" ...I shake my head.
what makes you so sure that these changes will "inevitably improve the game" ? so far i have seen alot of changes i like, and only 1 major one i do not and you are right about i do not have enough info to make a statement about how i think this idea is a very bad one, then again you do not have the info to say its a good one
uzurpator
13-10-2008, 17:23
- You want to make a melee necro? Poison dagger will do 99% of your damage. Put just enough into str and/or dex to wear items, all remaining points into vit.
Two possibilities - either a poison stacked poison mancer, or decrepify based melee. Either with minions (skeles or whatnot) or revives/golem only.
Use two handed weapon, then attributes for stuff, rest for vita or shield/weapon dex for block, rest vita (unless, of course, you did not want a block-lock, then all to vita).
There is a question of merc tho - with defiance merc it is worthwile to pump str to 200+ for that extra heavy armors. Titan melee- necros are fun when used with stacked slow items, might merc and well fed clay golem and maxed bone armor sub-tree for that extra protection.
Of course - there is cheap "passion" RW with +zeal, allowing to conjure AR, thus allow more power based necro.
Ther are a few ways to build melee necro, all requireing different stat allocation (dex-block, full-str or classic)
- Bow necro? You have no skills to support you. Max str or not, your necro will be useless. Reroll.
As a person who got several bow/crossbow/throwing weapon based necros through hell I call it bull****.
You either go for max dex, minimum rest, for something inbetween or for classic stuff/vita allocation scheme.
Buut - necros can also be hybrid dagger/throwing necros, thus they require balanced dex/str build to get maximum possible damage output, this allows wearing heavy armors and max block, thus not calling for vitality _at all_.
Just because energy is a broken stat, does not mean that the complete system is to be scrapped.
Besides - since most players build cookie cutters, lets force _all_ players to build cookie cutters? That is a retarded decision.
fivehorizons
13-10-2008, 17:25
I was initially very turned off from this announcement. However, if they truly are making this game more gear oriented then the stat change may not matter.
For instance, they could make cloth gear that gave str/dex boosts and some 'magic' armor boost. These items could allow a spellcaster to exploit certain skills in his tree that might be more melee oriented. The same could be done for the melee classes if they give them a somewhat magic based skill tree.
This would allow for just as much customization as D2, but without the need for placing stat points just to use items intended for another class.
FracturedFairy
13-10-2008, 17:54
I will wait and make my judgement after I have had time to play the game but I did like how I could differentiate my chars by using attribute points.:ponder:
The thing is, if they put allocated stat points into D2 now, I wouldn't care because the stat system is broken. But in D3 there's a stat system that look very interesting, and I really want to play around with it. The fun of planning builds is of course even more fun when you have more parameters. Since they axed half of them, I understand people get pissed. But as stated before, and having seen the new runes system, I think the stat system will be replaced with something just as fun. However, until that "thing" is announced, It really itches to manually assign attribute points.
Yet, why did they do this? Jay, said it is to prevent people to break their character. Yet they have confirmed respecs? And how about that "recommended" button that put points like the auto system will? I don't think he is honest, because the argument why they implement this do not make much sense. There is better ways to prevent people to screw this up!
I would buy the argument of skill balance. I noticed that some skills enhance damage output based on your stat. That sort of skill would be broken if we could manually place attribute points.
It would be just like D2:
Str/Dex for items
Vita is not your best buy anymore, ignore!
Everything else into Willpower.
So now you have a Wizard with say 350 Willpower. A lvl 15 Empowered Magic enhances the damage bonus by say 50% Damage, and then you have like 10 other passives to beef up damage.
Glass cannon builds galore.
I think the most important thing to do about this debate is to word and bring the question to Jay something like in this manner:
"The biggest concern players have about auto-assigned stats is about the viability of creating out-of-archetype builds. Many players enjoyed giving unusual equipment for their classes - high strength items for casters (titan sorc, melee necro, etc.), building barbarians as casters (singers), focusing a paladin as a bow user, etc. How do you plan to address their fears that auto-assigning base stats will significantly limit their freedom to make such builds?"
If we get an answer that indicates true removal of such variance, start your petitions and flood the battle.net forums. If we get an answer that indicates that such builds are still very possible and variance was not limited as much as we fear, we relax and wait to see what they have in store for us.
Apocalypse
13-10-2008, 20:52
thats pretty much how i see it, right now with the info we(I) have i am against it, if they come out and fully explain thier point of view maybe my opinion changes
Who wants to start the petition?
Stopped reading there.
/facepalm
Well im glad you can take a joke then. Even if i was only half joking about the petition...lighten up a little bit. Why waste your time to tell us you stopped reading the 15 pages of threads after the 4th post? What does that accomplish? lol.
Hopefully because of all this interest and reaction from us the blizzard team comes out and says SOMETHING about it. Even if they confirm 100% that there will be not any single way for us to manually add stats outside of items, at least it is a final word and we can really get into the *****ing!
Heres a good way to fix the problem: Add items.
::Helm of the Ancients::
+2 to skills
+100 to Str
+100 to Dex
+100 to Vit
+100 to Willpower
-200 resists
or something like that. It doesnt even have to be that godly (except fo rthe resists) just have an item that gives +100 to str. then it opens up the game for every single char in the game to do what they want. Dont have any intention of making a melee sorc? then you dont need the helm.
I actually like this idea.
By making the attributes static, the dev team can do a lot more with class-specific itemizing to make gear that caters more directly to any given spec. Sure, you can't equip some godly +STR weapon on a WD since it requires a minimum of 200 STR to begin with, but instead there will be weapons intended for the WD for people who want to melee. Instead of placing your attributes to gear up that way, they gave us Runes and Orbs that not only augment items, but skills. If you want a weapon on your wizard solely because it has great +Fire Damage but can't because of stat requirements, you can slot your actual skill with a Rune to add the fire damage instead. Each skill has one open slot underneath it on the skill trees. The only drawback was that it looked like you could only rune up one skill per tree (the first rune I had slotted went back to my inventory when I tried slotting a second skill) so I guess we'll just have to see how powerful those can get and how well they augment your chosen skill at higher levels before a true comparison can be made.
From what I experienced, the current Rune system is working very similar to how the new Inscription profession will be in WoW. That adds a different kind of customization than what manually slotting your attributes grants, but customization nonetheless.
Mad Mantis
13-10-2008, 23:21
Sure, you can't equip some godly +STR weapon on a WD since it requires a minimum of 200 STR to begin with, but instead there will be weapons intended for the WD for people who want to melee.
You are counting on the developers to envision all the builds that people want to play and cater to these build with specifically designed items. That seems like a hell of a lot more work than allowing us to place attributes.
Robobaby
13-10-2008, 23:50
So hang on a minute. The solution proposed to the removal of assignable stats is to...make it possible to buck the trend with absurdly powerful items?
Make no mistake -the already huge emphasis on items is down to a few very simple things: Almost every bonus you can get from gear is stackable meaning that it is possible to acquire so many +skills and so much +mana, +dex and +str from gear that it makes 55k light sorcs possible with zero investment in mana, strength or dexterity. This is partly the reason why 3 of the 4 attributes currently in d2 are redundant for most people except for very specific builds - glass cannon strafe zons (all dex), nova/es sorcs (all energy) and many pvp builds where max blocking prevents instant death against BvCs and the like.
Anyone who has played any iteration of d&d will see in action what I consider to be a more elegant system. You still have incredibly desirable and powerful items in d&d but many bonuses from items are not stackable. Enhancement bonuses to AC for example which prevents most character classes from getting an AC so high that absolutely nothing can hit you except on a critical hit.
On the downside, it does place very real barriers on the types of builds you can turn out using a single character class. D&D's solution to this problem was to create a large number of base classes and an absolutely ridiculous number of prestige classes to allow interesting hybrid styles like Gish (casters that use spells like wraith strike and self buffs to become better fighters than fighter's are). You can equate that to the melee sorc in D2.
The other thing is skills on items. These are almost exclusively runewords like Enigma which allows any class to Teleport and Call to Arms which allows any class to prebuff with Battle Orders. It makes a number of builds possible that are otherwise not (bear sorc for example).
Also whoever said bow necros suck in d2 hasn't played one. I've played a bow sorc and it frankly rules. My only problem was in certain PvP matchups like versus BvC barbs and against anyone that can basically mass absorb fire damage using items like hot spurs, rising sun and dwarf star.
Whoever said melee sorcs suck in d2 never played one. Melee sorcs are some of the hardest hitters you will ever play. I've seen a Bear sorc packing something crazy like 130k elemental damage kill Hell Diablo in about 4 hits. It was hilarious. They have a funny swagger too.
stillman
14-10-2008, 00:09
I've never seen so many wild end-of-the-world assumptions. Why would Blizzard kill off the ability to produce wierd, subpar, challenging and fun builds? They're probably not going to. The notion that they're forcing us to wear only cloth on a wizard is absurd.
The way I see it, they just took all the customization you would get out of stats and moved it all over to skills. I mean, there's over 60 skills per chr and that's only up to lev 20. If you want to make a heavy axe wizard, there's probably 6 skills that cater to that build. You just have to figgure out which skills they are and max them out. So it will take a bit more thinking. You have to max out that certain combo of skills, whereas in d2, you said, "I'll obviously need str and dex for my heavy axe sorc, and obviously enchant".
60 is a whole lot. There may even end up being a skill called "Fire Axe". Or, you want to be a throwing star using wizard? Well there's a spell called "Magic Throwing Stars And Lots of Them". And if they don't do it this way (making it easy), there's the more d2ish way where you have to look hard at the seemingly useless skills and put them together in a creative way to get your usable melee wizard. It's all about the skills now.
There are endless ways they could allow us to use heavy armor on a wizard. There could be a quest reward that takes off the str requirement of any one armor you chose. There may be low level skills that specifically allow your wizard to wear more armor. Then there's Tyreal's might with it's req -100% mod which they could tack on as a regular mod, though maybe a bit rarer, to many items. There might be a buffing spell that gives you more str or dex or w/e and your wierd build just has to cast it every 6 minutes.
I still don't see how Blizzard is preventing you from having your variety of builds. I think you guys are talking about the absolute worst case scenario. You're talking as though Blizzard said "we don't want there to be singers or bowpallys like there were in d2."
FireFiend
14-10-2008, 00:37
Surprising? Definitely.
End of the world? No.
Look at the track record. Blizzard has yet to make an unsuccessful major title. I'm confident that D3 will be fun, even if it's not fun in the same ways D2 was.
They could change respec to also work on stats and also stop auto stating once you respec
By doing this, you can still make glass cannon zons or es sorcs
ohnoyellowdinosaur
14-10-2008, 01:07
This choice isn't a deal-breaker by itself for me; but it really is a bummer. But coupled with the art direction, plot direction, character classes, and starcraft being split into three games, battle.net not being free...
Diablo 3 is not being made for the fans of the old games at all. They're targeting a whole new audience. I know alot of WoW players who look really interested in D3 and never played D2; and this might just be characteristic of it. Anybody else can confirm with their experiences?
Robobaby
14-10-2008, 01:08
Then there's Tyreal's might with it's req -100% mod which they could tack on as a regular mod, though maybe a bit rarer, to many items. There might be a buffing spell that gives you more str or dex or w/e and your wierd build just has to cast it every 6 minutes.
I still don't see how Blizzard is preventing you from having your variety of builds. I think you guys are talking about the absolute worst case scenario. You're talking as though Blizzard said "we don't want there to be singers or bowpallys like there were in d2."
I get where you are coming from. I think Tyrael's has no attribute reqs whatsoever meaning that pretty much anyone can wear it so long as they meet the level req.
But a theoretical shift like this would put more emphasis on gear and the biggest obstacle in d2 is getting the gear you need to do something well.
battle.net not being free...
Battle.net is going to be free, they just might charge money for additional "unknown" features.
http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/55271
Horse armor anybody?
More like actual battle.net features. Guild support, expanded friend list, etc. They said they will be monetizing Battle.net features, not game features.
Uncle_Mike
14-10-2008, 11:03
Well, i'm not sure what to think about it but having given it some thought i'd say that it may not be a bad idea to remove stats.
Under the current system, player who cares about his chars should either get end-game equipment before making the char or pretty much rebuild char every time he/she gets an item upgrade. remaking a lvl 94 windy because iv'e traded for 25 dex shadowdancers to replace my current 23 dex ones, no thanks, i don't feel like it.
if the new item and skill systems are versatile and complex I'm sure we'll all be happy with d3 and happily forget constant rebuilding "cuz i've spent 3 points in dex too much".
Much depends on levelling system in d3 though, in d2 the thought of having to join 500 bot baalruns to create a new char isn't tempting and bores me to death.
Well, i'm not sure what to think about it but having given it some thought i'd say that it may not be a bad idea to remove stats.
Under the current system, player who cares about his chars should either get end-game equipment before making the char or pretty much rebuild char every time he/she gets an item upgrade. remaking a lvl 94 windy because iv'e traded for 25 dex shadowdancers to replace my current 23 dex ones, no thanks, i don't feel like it.
if the new item and skill systems are versatile and complex I'm sure we'll all be happy with d3 and happily forget constant rebuilding "cuz i've spent 3 points in dex too much".
Much depends on levelling system in d3 though, in d2 the thought of having to join 500 bot baalruns to create a new char isn't tempting and bores me to death.
And that's how the replayability will die. The longevity of D2 with very little in the way of updated content is phenomenal. I do not expect the same from D3 in its current direction.
Well, i'm not sure what to think about it but having given it some thought i'd say that it may not be a bad idea to remove stats.
Under the current system, player who cares about his chars should either get end-game equipment before making the char or pretty much rebuild char every time he/she gets an item upgrade. remaking a lvl 94 windy because iv'e traded for 25 dex shadowdancers to replace my current 23 dex ones, no thanks, i don't feel like it.
if the new item and skill systems are versatile and complex I'm sure we'll all be happy with d3 and happily forget constant rebuilding "cuz i've spent 3 points in dex too much".
But they could also make two choices for players when creating a character: Auto-stating or Manual stating.
Manual stating to also allow stat-respec'ing too.
This should make both types of players happy. They both get what they want in the end. No one is forced to have pre made stats per level but the choice is there for the player.
There would be no point for an Auto-stat'd char to respec since you already know the final stats for X lvl char of Class A.
This would make allow more customization.
stillman
14-10-2008, 13:57
I don't think they'll do that popalot, though it's interesting. The main benefit I figgure would be you can hastily build your chr faster without having to think about stats if you chose the auto-stating. You would never have to worry about not having enough life or w/e later in the game.
But that's where the bennefits would end. Mostly everyone, imo, would choose to manual stat and do the min max thing. This would lead to builds that blow the auto-stat builds out of the water (as previously discussed). So it may turn into a situation where hardly anyone uses one of the major options on chr creation so that option may as well not be there.
I see what ohnoyellowdinosaur is saying about the problems stacking up against the old fans; there are a few things I don't like so far either. But imo, I see that Blizzard seems to be taking care of every last magor problem from d2. That alone makes me very pleased about the way things are going.
They can't really fix things without doing a bit of damage here and there. I accept that damage. Crappy metaphore here: when the workers come in to remove your collapsing old basement and put in a nice new cement stable one, they leave a big muddy mess in your yard. It's unsightly, but at least your house won't cave in.
Edit: I wanted to add that IIRC, Blizzard stated this decision had partly to do with making items more important. I think this is reasonable, even if it means more of a struggle to get the gear you need to make the exact build you want. In fact, d2 has many such builds that require extreme effort to attain specific gear. So gear is already super-important in d2 anyway. Even d1 was all about items.
Apocalypse
14-10-2008, 14:09
And that's how the replayability will die. The longevity of D2 with very little in the way of updated content is phenomenal. I do not expect the same from D3 in its current direction.
this is my major concern with no stats and respecs, i feel the replay is gonna take a serious beating. i feel there will be alot less possible builds per class now and if the respecs allow for 100% do over it will go even further in killing replay. just my opinion though
Remaking a char without 100% respecs would make the game boring.
Manual stating is for people who played the game for some time and know what they want. And they could always stat-respec perhaps? Stat-respec fixes problems for 'not having enough life' problem later in the game if they put in too much in mana/dex/str.
For people just starting out, auto-stating would be recommended.
They could also make Str part of max blocking instead of just dex
and running faster if you had more dex+more str
Less people would go min/max thing as you said perhaps...
Sein Schatten
14-10-2008, 14:17
Well, i'm not sure what to think about it but having given it some thought i'd say that it may not be a bad idea to remove stats.
Under the current system, player who cares about his chars should either get end-game equipment before making the char or pretty much rebuild char every time he/she gets an item upgrade. remaking a lvl 94 windy because iv'e traded for 25 dex shadowdancers to replace my current 23 dex ones, no thanks, i don't feel like it.
:scratchchin:
Think like this. Blizzard should itemize with their current, well balanced automatical stat allocation in mind. Means, the item requirements fit the stats. The scenario you mentioned can't and won't happen if you follow Blizzards recommended allocation (KotOR anyone). Alternatively you can allocate like you see fit. Then it is YOUR choice to make bad choices. Why remove this option?
Uncle_Mike
14-10-2008, 19:34
Alternatively you can allocate like you see fit. Then it is YOUR choice to make bad choices. Why remove this option?
Not bad but currently available choices. With the exception of really oddball builds' stat allocation, as many have previously stated, things were pretty similar in most cases i.e. str for gear, dex for block and so on. If you want an es sorc use mana items, if you want vita one use vita items, it's pretty much the same. You want max block you have to sacrifice other elements that are important to the build. Once we find out about new items and skill system it's possible that chances of making specialised or strange and challenging builds might be even higher than in d2.
It's not an aspect of the game i'd miss that much if I had limitless skill allocation variations making a galore of builds available. I don't like the idea of respec in d3.
No stats and no respec as a compromise? You can still mess up your char but gear itself doesn't mess it up.
My views might be biased a little these days, i've recently found myself remaking 3 characters and levelling them. It's damn boring and repetitive. And as stated before, given the current state of the game, your only option is to join games run by bots.
If they somehow make levelling at higher levels exciting in d3 I might change my mind.
I do agree though, that if they mess the new system up it could seriously hamper the longevity of the game.
Right. I just happened to think of something. Stats are gone out the window. Now wheres the customization? Take a closer look at the wizard skills. I die to see the barb skill trees soon, so that I can maybe ease my worries. But back to some of the Wizard skills. First one out is:
Empowered Magic
Increases the effect of willpower on your spell damage by 20%.
* Rank: 0/15
Does not this skill do the same thing as the min/maxers would if they could max willpower? Is not this skill a fair substitute to increase willpower as the glass cannon wizard would?
Lethal Energy
Increases the chance to score critical hits with melee and spell attacks by 5%.
* Rank: 0/15
Why is such a skill in the game? Melee? Wizard??? Is this the substitute for the lack of str to wield the best swords maybe? Hm?
Weapon Mastery
Increases physical damage done by all weapons by 15.
* Rank: 0/15
Oh, and what's this all about? A second skill to enhance your melee Wizard. So much for the Wizards with staffs. What happened to staff mastery? Hm?
Conjured Power
Increases damage done by spells by 1% for every 10 points of vitality.
* Rank: 0/15
Glass cannon mastery you say? Thought they were out of the picture here...
Magic Weapon
Imbue your weapon with magical energy granting it increased damage.
* Rank: 0/1
Ok, this is the third skill that enhances the Melee Wizard. So far I can spend 31 points in melee skills and since the skill tree is not yet complete I will only assume that a Melee Wizard will may not be as good as the Barbarian when it comes to damage, but he cant be far behind.
Magical Impact
Increases damage of all spells by 15% of your weapon damage.
* Rank: 0/15
What a most interesting skill. The Wizard Hybrid of spells and melee is born. Better Swords, better spells. Oh, and sword can be exchanged for a high damage staff of course. So the skill can also promote spellbuilds to wear high dmg items to get more dmg output in their spells.
Slowing Strikes
Enemies damaged by your melee attacks, Spectral Blade or magic weapon have their movement speed reduced by 30% and their attack speed reduced by 20% for 4 sec.
* Rank: 0/15
What a broken skill. Put a point in Time Stop and what can they really do. Hack and slash the statues. Anyway the point is that there is actually a support skill for the melew Wizard aside from passives that enhances damage.
Armor Piercing
Conjured and physical damage decreases the armor of armored enemies.
* Rank: 0/15
That makes two of them. This last skill makes the Melee Wizard Complete. What he lacks in dex to add to his AR, he will get from this skill.
Summing up:
Wizard have if going melee:
-Increased chance of crits
-Increased damage on Weapon
-Imbue Weapon increasing dmg
-Each hit slows movement by 30% and IAS by 20%
-Each hit decrease AR.
I can spend 61 points in melee skills, and spend others on support skill. Like Time Stop, Maybe Frost Nova or some nice passives. IMO thats a kick *** Melee Wizard.
The point of this post is to show that I think Blizzard put stat allocation and fun builds into skills. The Wizard tree has the traditional caster builds, but offer melee builds and hybrids as well. That's why I'm interested to get a look on the Barbarian tree to see if they have something similar, like caster skills.
I'm not sure if this is a good thing or not though.
Brother Laz
14-10-2008, 20:58
Stat-respec fixes problems for 'not having enough life' problem later in the game if they put in too much in mana/dex/str.
BECAUSE THE ONLY WAY YOU SHOULD DISTRIBUTE STAT POINTS IS JUST ENOUGH INTO STR/DEX, ZERO INTO ENR, ALL INTO VIT AND THIS IS WORKING AS INTENDED AND SHOULD BE SUPPORTED IN D3? AAAARGH. GRR. BLAH. SPUTTER.
The point is that there is no way to make stat allocation an actual choice. You have to allocate them the right way according to your skill/item build, if not then your character is gimped. Yay, I'm free as a FREAKING BIRD to put my points in 'properly' or ruin my character.
Also, some stats get obsolete later on - energy, but also dexterity for attack rating. Reroll. Yay.
Kiroptus
14-10-2008, 21:25
Different Skill Effects > Boring stats numbers.
Its certainly a good way to rid of the "number whores" mentality that plagues LoD now. If one miserable stat was used wrong or if it didnt follow the optimal build -> Reroll.
Screw stats, I find it relieving that I dont need to worry about those numbers.
More variant skills and the different effects that the rune system provides >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Freedom" in stats.
Having your sorc being able to carry a Thunder Maul didnt make her awesome. Now there are many skills that support that variants instead of boring numbers.
A titan barb with expensive gear is far superior to the equivalent a vita barb for pvm but inferior for pvp. The same is arguably true for bowazons - how much vita to put on a pvp bowazon is an indepth decision with no widely acknowledged right answer.
Why is everyone fearful of change? No matter what - D3 is going to kick ***
Yes, I agree stats are boring.. wonder if we get more skill points to play around with..
Gigashadow
14-10-2008, 22:19
I would prefer if they created a more complex attribute system. The fact that they didn't points out that they are unable to balance it at the moment, fine by me. I'd rather have well balanced, automatic stats than a broken stat system with illusionary freedom. Developers have choices to make, and that's what they did here.
why do so few of you have no faith? i was at blizzcon and played the demo... diablo 3 is going to be SICK. i am sitting here craving more as we speak.
as for the stat allocation... yes, i am a tiny bit worried that it might take away something from the game. HOWEVER, i have tremendous faith in the blizzard/d3 team that they're not removing it without reason. here are just some things off the top of my head that many of you aren't considering:
1. stat boosting items - if you really want to make a heavy armor wearing sorc, maybe you can wear the rings that add +30 to strength or that new unique set of boots that has +25 str. it's very possible that blizzard will put items in specifically for people who want to make special builds. and the fact is, these items can now be BALANCED because they'll know exactly where our stats will be.
for example, they want your level 80 wizard to be able to wear hellforge plate if necessary. they now know EXACTLY how many str it would take for you to wear hellforge plate and can design items that can get you there, without making them overpowered for other classes or builds.
2. vitality and hitpoints can now be more finely balanced in pvm and pvp - i think this is is THE most important factor here. in d2, the min maxers had full vit builds... so let's say you end up with a character with 6k life. as opposed to the "casual" player who spread his stat points out and has a character with 3k life. how should pvm be balanced? do you want monsters who can do 2k damage and 1 or 2 shot "casual" players because the min maxers have insane amounts of life?
with the new system, sure players can wear vit heavy armor and things, but the range of life totals will be much lower. you could say that all level 80 wizards will have 3k life base. with vit heavy gear you might push it up to 3500 or 4k at most. now you can easily balance pvm and pvp damage.
to summarize, i'm all for customization but i'm willing to be patient and see what the devs do with this. if it means a more balanced and BETTER game then i'm all for it!
Hellspawn
14-10-2008, 22:48
I am all for no attribute points. You guys that are worried about not being able to make a melee wizard, just look at the skills Pallt posted above. You can have a more focused badass melee wizard in D3 with these skills than you can in D2 by pumping str just to use heavier weapons/armor.
Apocalypse
14-10-2008, 22:56
nice post paalt, as i viewed the skill tree today i noticed that they added alot of melee based skills so maybe a melee wiz will not only be possible, but more fun this time around. one skill i think you missed or maybe i got the wrong info is the skill that boosts the wizards health points. now sure this is a good skill for both caster or melee but it should be mentioned when talking tanking a sorc
Ragefist
14-10-2008, 22:59
I would prefer if they created a more complex attribute system. The fact that they didn't points out that they are unable to balance it at the moment, fine by me. I'd rather have well balanced, automatic stats than a broken stat system with illusionary freedom. Developers have choices to make, and that's what they did here.
A large part of character design in D2 and some other games have been through stat management. For instance, I might forgo on the ultra high dps high str weapons in hardcore mode and pump stamina. I would like to see more freedom in character design and choice of gear. Balance should not be a major issue in this type of hack-n-slash game.
I do like wow and all but I want D3 to be different with regards to character development and gear.
.
Balance should not be a major issue in this type of hack-n-slash game.
...Are you serious? Balance is important in any game, no matter what genre. Balance is especially important in a game with RPG elements that also includes both co-op and PvP methods of gameplay.
Stat points never affected builds nearly as much as skill points or gear.
Kiroptus
14-10-2008, 23:16
^I agree, Balance is always important.
Just because we are used to this unbalanced mess that is Diablo II doesnt mean that its the right way to do it. Its good but it could be better.
Gigashadow
14-10-2008, 23:25
Balance should not be a major issue in this type of hack-n-slash game.Opinion. Strong disbalance between choices made me very annoyed at the game in PvM. It is also annoying when one character is really easy to play (hammerdin), while others have a much harder time.A large part of character design in D2 and some other games have been through stat management.Didn't notice. I just put everything in VIT and tried to avoid STR and get it via charms. Get DEX via charms. And get mana via items, mana leech, whatever.
For instance, I might forgo on the ultra high dps high str weapons in hardcore mode and pump stamina.There is no thinking here, it's just "get as much STR as required for wep".
I would like to see more freedom in character design and choice of gear.Don't we all want a perfect game really fast. I think it's easy to say what we want. But it's hard to actually do it. Design an attribute system that's perfectly balanced after DIII comes out and I'll see you try it.
I do like wow and all but I want D3 to be different with regards to character development and gear.What the hell does WoW have to do with this?
Frostraven
15-10-2008, 00:13
How many TRULY HELL VIABLE builds were there for each class in diablo II?
What if every build is "hell" viable in DIII -- some more expensive than others, without any build beeing silly 1000$-gear-expensive?
PvM viable, that is.
I do not mind MUCH -- but I hope there's something to remedy the removal of the attributes, like the selection between three optional class-specific attribute layouts chosen at character creation...
OR...
Mayhaps skills give attribute points on selection, based on what the skill represents?
2. vitality and hitpoints can now be more finely balanced in pvm and pvp - i think this is is THE most important factor here. in d2, the min maxers had full vit builds... so let's say you end up with a character with 6k life. as opposed to the "casual" player who spread his stat points out and has a character with 3k life. how should pvm be balanced? do you want monsters who can do 2k damage and 1 or 2 shot "casual" players because the min maxers have insane amounts of life?
You can get up to over 15k health with enough buffing... I believe I've seen a screen of an 18k bear. Guess how much of that is due directly to hard points in vita? The mix maxers will be getting 8k on their barbs not because they're distributing stats far better than anyone else, it's because they have the very best gear and they're prebuffing extensively. If you couldn't adjust stats at all it wouldn't make any non-negligible difference to balancing difficulty.
In pvp the stats are quite poorly balanced against each other making all excess stats (after max block and gear, typically) go into vita. For pvm there's a perfectly valid risk/reward choice of damage (titan barb) vs safety (vita barb). If I have access to top notch gear I'll be going for the former every single time, even in HC (75+ all res 20k def and 3k life is plenty... you can never have too much attack damage on the other hand well damage rollover cap aside).
So hey, on the front page there's a bunch of quotes from Bashiok talking about how items won't have stat requirements. That means all you debbie downers will be able to don barb armor as a wizard or whatever the hell else you want to do.
Gigashadow
15-10-2008, 03:24
I wonder how would that work. Would there be penalties for wearing armor, perhaps?
The penalty is that the piece of equipment might have absolutely nothing to do with your character class or build and would be essentially useless.
nEgativezEro
15-10-2008, 04:02
I'm assuming items would just be level based now. I suppose it makes sense in the fact that Jay Wilson wanted players to feel epic and powerful. If items were just level based it would make the lack of skill point customization less of a concern.
I can understand some of the reasoning behind this, like for the newbs who don't know any better, but it is a little unfair to take that customization away for those of is who do know what we were doing.
On the other side of the argument, there's a lot of truth to the str for items, dex for items, all else in vit for a majority of the builds. I suppose keeping a static system for attribute points will make it easier for the devs to balance out the levels and make the game challenging throughout.
In the end, I still agree with those who have said they should just simply put in an option whether to auto assign or not. The D2 VIT pumping attribute system was only done in that manner because it was the most efficient build. If there was an equal trade off between the other skills and vitality, it would greatly vary the builds. If adding points in STR gave melee characters in D2 a lot more killing power, there probably would've been a lot more chars pumping STR beyond item requirements.
I guess it's a moot point. I think with the new skill system we'll have plenty of customization. Considering the primary skills seem to be 1 pointers, and passive skills are looking like they'll effect multiple spells, we'll see a lot of characters using a wide variety of skills. If the skills of each character are well balanced and useful, the lack of attribute points won't be a big issue. Instead of pumping 20 points into one skill and the rest of your points into synergies, you can have multiple effective and useful skills to use.
Oh jesus ****ing christ, there wasn't THAT much customization when it came to stat points! Stat placement was never a build maker or breaker for the vast majority of builds.
Oh jesus focking christ, there wasn't THAT much customization when it came to stat points! Stat placement was never a build maker or breaker for the vast majority of builds.
Agreed.
I screwed up so much on my first build, by adding a majority of my points into energy and strength into my sorc, but she didn't fair too badly compared to a perfect build one. Realistically, stats have little impact on your gameplay (aside from the fact that you need them for various equipment), people just don't like auto-stat because it just narrows their options.
Agreed.
I screwed up so much on my first build, by adding a majority of my points into energy and strength into my sorc, but she didn't fair too badly compared to a perfect build one. Realistically, stats have little impact on your gameplay (aside from the fact that you need them for various equipment), people just don't like auto-stat because it just narrows their options.
It might narrow a bit, but there will be another type of customization options in D3. People shouldn't only think these removed features but also think about what new features we get then get the whole picture about the game.
"we don't have a, b, c, d anymore this game sucks"
"but we have e, f, g, h, i, j that partially replaces the a, b, c, d"
It's a new game with a different approach but with the same feel of the genre.
Mad Mantis
15-10-2008, 09:44
It saddens me to read that Bashiok falls into the same trap as most of the people opposed to freely allocating stat points and is willing to just throw away an entire section of customization because of it.
I've been negative on a fair number of changes on D3. In doing so I've been accused, more than once, of both "thinking in D2 terms too much" and "wanting D2.5". Now, the way I see it, the pro-auto people can be accused of "thinking in D2 terms too much". Instead of seeing how a more interesting system could be developed and actually contribute to more varied builds, they harp on how the distribution in D2 was flawed (mostly in LoD) and extrapolate that to say that the distribution in D3 will be flawed. This time they have a chance to do it right and make stat distribution a full component of builds. Instead they opt to cut it out entirely. They are making the same mistake as in D2 LoD where everybody had the same distribution. Only now it won't be an optimal distribution.
Something unrelated to the Bashiok comment, is something I've been reading on this board a lot. There seem to be a lot of people willing to accept hand-holding just to "make things easier for newcomers". What I don't understand is why people these days are so opposed to learning and failing. Why should you be able to come to a game you never played before and immediately create a powerful and successful character? What exactly is wrong with screwing up a char or three? I've had a lot of fun in D2 finding out what worked and what didn't. The reward when you find out what works for you is fantastic. But no one seems interested in it these days. Just a short rant of mine on a pet peeve subject.
They could try satisfying both groups of players for the stat customization with auto-stat/manual-stat+stat-respec'ing upon creating chars. It'd also let people experiment with alot of different distributions with stat-respec'ing.
Apocalypse
15-10-2008, 14:09
thats my biggest problem mantis, if you disagree with a change you want D2.5. i myself have disagreed with a few changes this being one of them, however i now fall into the group of "it wont break the game so whatever". at this point i no longer care if i get to add my points or it does it for me. i would still prefer to do it myself but i no longer feel it will be a game breaker
What exactly is wrong with screwing up a char or three?
lol. Or four, or eight. I look at my first barb char and just roar with laughter.
Coulnd't agree with you more. Trying and failing is fun. Although cookie cutter build will be up on the web after a short time anyway.
And just to make my opinion- I see no positive side of this change except making the desingers' life a bit easier. I see, however, a big negative side. Although, I hardly think this is a gamebreaker. If items don't have stats requirements as Bashiok mentioned +stats items will become more of a factor hopefully along with many +attributes quests.
It saddens me to read that Bashiok falls into the same trap as most of the people opposed to freely allocating stat points and is willing to just throw away an entire section of customization because of it.
And this assumption is based on? Stat allocation is akin to the "better mousetrap" argument. No one wants a poorer mouse trap, as stat allocation would certainly allow due to certain players not having the knowledge or item-based ability to support the ideal (which is typically enough str/max block or base dex/base energy/rest into vita). By removing the ability to place stats yourself, blizzard not only allows for greater customisation through an increased number of balanced items, but also removes the illusion that the ability to stat customises a character. As far as most cookie-cutter builds went in D2, it wasn't so much of customisation but an avoidance of wealth-based inferiority when trying to adhere to the optimised formula.
I've been negative on a fair number of changes on D3. In doing so I've been accused, more than once, of both "thinking in D2 terms too much" and "wanting D2.5". Now, the way I see it, the pro-auto people can be accused of "thinking in D2 terms too much". Instead of seeing how a more interesting system could be developed and actually contribute to more varied builds, they harp on how the distribution in D2 was flawed (mostly in LoD) and extrapolate that to say that the distribution in D3 will be flawed. This time they have a chance to do it right and make stat distribution a full component of builds. Instead they opt to cut it out entirely. They are making the same mistake as in D2 LoD where everybody had the same distribution. Only now it won't be an optimal distribution.
I partially agree, only because I am ambivalent to some of the changes, and do not see why people are kicking up a big fuss when the majority of gameplay mechanics have not been revealed yet. I believe that a system in which stats could be manually allocated can definitely work. However, I'm sure it isn't too much to ask that detractors of the current system give certain leeway for the new system. If the removal of the stat system allows for customisation in the following ways: 1) Greater balancing of items, which in turn give control over stats, 2) Better planning for skills due to the knowledge that stats and items will be better balanced and 3) Skill runes, whose balancing is contingent on the former two factors, I daresay there would be greater customisation within the realms of balance. A simple example being the rickshaw and bicycle being obsolete as modes of transport to get to work. On the surface, it certainly reduces the number of options. However, if this means that accessibility is increased via a more comprehensive bus/train network and increased accessibility to private transport, that simply means more optimised modes of travel are prevalent, with bicycles and rickshaws being illusionary choices in the first place.
On a sidenote, why are people being labelled as "pro-auto"? The way I see it, most of the people who I assume would be "pro-auto" are more like "pro-wait-and-see". Don't see a problem with that.
Something unrelated to the Bashiok comment, is something I've been reading on this board a lot. There seem to be a lot of people willing to accept hand-holding just to "make things easier for newcomers". What I don't understand is why people these days are so opposed to learning and failing. Why should you be able to come to a game you never played before and immediately create a powerful and successful character? What exactly is wrong with screwing up a char or three? I've had a lot of fun in D2 finding out what worked and what didn't. The reward when you find out what works for you is fantastic. But no one seems interested in it these days. Just a short rant of mine on a pet peeve subject.
What handholding? The way I see it, the only thing they've done by removing stat allocation is to ensure that people don't get screwed over because of inferior stats due to inferior items.
If you're talking about respecs, then I have to question why a person that feels strongly about customisation and increased choice disagrees with the idea of respecs, which are a choice in themselves. No one at Blizzard is forcing you to use them. Heck, no one even knows exactly how they work. If you feel that you derive joy from figuring things out by creating a few new characters, that option is still open -- simply choose not to use respecs. Seeing as character power-levelling is likely to be a thing of the past, I for one am glad to see respecs. Not because I see the need to be helped along, but because I don't see why people who have time constraints should be forced to waste their valuable time simply to correct simple, genuine mistakes. Respecs are highly likely to be partial, and I would not be surprised if they only corrected small portions of a character. I've felt the pain of taking a character to level 98 in D2 just to click on the wrong skill, and I don't see why levelling another character should have been my only recourse if I wanted a perfect build. Simply put, different strokes for different people, and different choices for different people.
Mad Mantis
15-10-2008, 15:11
No one wants a poorer mouse trap, as stat allocation would certainly allow due to certain players not having the knowledge or item-based ability to support the ideal (which is typically enough str/max block or base dex/base energy/rest into vita).
You can still build a poorer mousetrap even with the current system. Since you'll have no knowledge or items to support an ideal skill set-up from the start. It will always be possible to screw up a character. As long as there is any choice you can screw up your character.
You are falling in the same trap as most, assuming that things will be like D2. In D2 (mostly post-LoD) we have that set-up. There is no reason that things should be the same in D3.
By removing the ability to place stats yourself, blizzard not only allows for greater customisation through an increased number of balanced items, but also removes the illusion that the ability to stat customises a character.
You are assuming that there will be an increased number of balanced items to compensate for the lack of stats. I'm afraid that it will lead to a reducing of viable options since people will start to exclude all items that aren't high +stats items. I see it as reducing my customization. However, I must say that this is blatant unfounded negativity on my part until we have more information on the subject.
However, I'm sure it isn't too much to ask that detractors of the current system give certain leeway for the new system. If the removal of the stat system allows for customisation in the following ways: 1) Greater balancing of items, which in turn give control over stats, 2) Better planning for skills due to the knowledge that stats and items will be better balanced and 3) Skill runes, whose balancing is contingent on the former two factors, I daresay there would be greater customisation within the realms of balance.
There certainly is a certain amount of leeway. We know next to nothing about the game at this point. Most of the discussions depend on qualities of the game that aren't announced yet. To be honest most of what we are discussing is pure speculation until we receive more information.
With option number 1) all you are really doing is placing the function of allocating stat points to items. Something I don't think items need since there could be much more useful mods on them instead of just +stats.
numbers 2) and 3) depend heavily on something that we can only assume. Balancing of items and all was better in classic than it was in LoD. I'm hesitant to assume that they'll get it right this time.
On a sidenote, why are people being labelled as "pro-auto"? The way I see it, most of the people who I assume would be "pro-auto" are more like "pro-wait-and-see". Don't see a problem with that.
I grouped the "I like it", "doesn't-bother-me" and "wait-and-see" people into pro-auto because it is shorter to type and the attitude in all three leads to almost the same conclusion. It was not meant as a derogatory term.
What handholding? The way I see it, the only thing they've done by removing stat allocation is to ensure that people don't get screwed over because of inferior stats due to inferior items.
That is hand-holding in my opinion. The lack of death penalties is also hand-holding. You are completely removing the option of failure. Guaranteeing success no matter how careless you are in your handling of your character. Why shouldn't you be screwed over because you put all points in energy for a melee Barb and a skill point in all skills? Why shouldn't you be screwed over because you are using equipment composed entirely of cracked items? Things in games aren't equal and shouldn't be. Without a chance of failure success means nothing at all.
For the record I am not opposed to respecs entirely. I am opposed against respeccing everything freely whenever and wherever you want.
There should definately be a death penalty, it was already stupid that you got some of the exp back if you got back your corpse. But I don't really care if there is HC mode.
Respecs should have some limitations, like high cost that would take some days to farm or something.
Diablo 3 is not Diablo 2. There are different skills and gameplay mechanics at work here, several of which we know we haven't even heard of yet.
They have chosen automatic skill distribution because it works best with whatever else they're implementing in this game.
But hey, I'm biased, I always thought stat distribution was entirely unnecessary.
Apocalypse
15-10-2008, 16:54
the good thing is, when i make char plans pre launch i wont have to try and guess at where to put stats also lol
1 Respec per completion of each difficulty level.
50% experience loss per death. ^_^
I'm cool with the auto-allocation if there are enough other ways to customize our characters and add depth. Skill Runes could theoretically go a long way towards that, but I'm afraid that they may wind up as nothing more than a gimmicky plaything.
I think that might be the case because of the amount of variety needed with Runes, and how hard it's going to be for Blizzard to manually create that variety. One rune has to effect multiple skills across 5 classes, both visually and technically, and has to scale depending on the quality of the rune. That's an EPIC amount of work if you're talking about something like 20 to 30 runes, which I think is going to be necessary to really make this a worthwhile system to dedicate an entire UI screen to. It really wouldn't surprise me if Blizzard scraps this entire idea at some point.
Since there are no longer stat-reqs on items, I'm interested to see if there will be penalties introduced for over-exerting your class .. such as heavier armors slowing down the weaker casters, or adding a % chance for spells to fail, etc. I certainly think there needs to be some system in place so that things "make sense."
Maybe a good solution would be to encourage classes to wear what they're "supposed to" by adding some smart skills to their trees. The Wizard, for example, could have a skill called "Unhindered Power" that increases their spell damage IF they're wearing cloth armor. This would still leave the door open for alternative builds, and would be another step towards Blizzard's philosophy that characters should be designed around their skills and items.. not stats.
Thoughts?
Apocalypse
15-10-2008, 21:11
1 Respec per completion of each difficulty level.
50% experience loss per death. ^_^
you started good then went completly crazy
poroboszcz
16-10-2008, 01:49
The thing is that stats in D2 actually helped to keep better balance between items. You needed more strenght to wear a better armor and, for example, you had to sacrifice some vitality to wear CoA, which as reward gave you nice mods. The problem was that stats were not meaningful enough. There were only needed to meet items requirements as all the useful mods came from items. Therefore "enough str for gear, dex for max block, no mana and rest vita" has became the dominant formula.
Now if you look how the stats work in D3,
16 Strength - Physical damage bonus: 16% | Armor Bonus 26%
28 Dexterity - Crit chance 7.0% | Dodge chance: 7.0
18 Vitality - Life: 56 | Mana Regen: 0.9 sec.
94 Willpower - Spell damage bonus: 52.8% | Health globe bonus: 0.0%
and how there are skills that directly benefit from them,
Empowered Magic - Rank 2/15: Increases the effect of willpower on your spell damage by 20%.
Conjured Power - Rank 0/15: Increases damage done by spells by 1% for every 10 points of vitality.
Static Charge - Rank 0/15: Convert 5% of all damage taken into mana.
you can see how they are much more meaningful than they were in D2 and that there is a lot of room for experimenting with different builds. And even if most of that builds would end up being crap, there is still a lot of fun in playing around with stats to figure out what placement works best. This fun was a big part of D2 and now it's being taken away with auto-placement system.
The other thing is that without requirements on items and too much class-specific gear the customization is even more limited. Now the number of possible builds for each class is being dictated by developers rather than being left to players imagination. It's like "Ok, you can have your melee wizard - just use this sword, which we've made for your build, but the other one, that you might like to use has been specifficaly designed for a barb."
Swordslash
16-10-2008, 02:09
the thruth is most of the complainers shouldn't be talkinf @#$% about the game taht not even came out yet.
just wait and see with your own eyes, because ,at least I hope, that de devs Know what they are doing and I its probably the most efficient way to make a wonderfull game such as D3 gotta be
So, why have a forum then? Oh yeah, to discuss things, and occasionally DISAGREE about them.
Gigashadow
16-10-2008, 02:19
What annoys me about complaining is definitive accusations such as "Blizzard fails because they removed attributes". It seem to me that most people do not even want to stop and think about "why"...
Mad Mantis
16-10-2008, 09:07
What annoys me about complaining is definitive accusations such as "Blizzard fails because they removed attributes". It seem to me that most people do not even want to stop and think about "why"...
A lot of the more serious arguments are around because people do understand why but simply do not agree with it, or believe that there could be different ways of handling it.
Gigashadow
16-10-2008, 12:19
There are always different ways of handling things, but to say that Blizzard did something stupid because YOU with your nonexistant experience of game development don't agree is just foolish and pre-assumptive.
There is only one reason why they would not add attributes. Balancing. That's the one real reason. If you can create a balanceable att system... fire away... I tried to make one, I made my conclusions, you can, too.
People say it could have been done differently. In reality, they don't know. They're assuming that they know more than Blizzard does. No, really, it's just people wanting more icing on their cake than there already is. DI was not perfect, DII was not perfect, DIII will not be perfect, perfection is unnattainable, and that's what most people are after, it seems...
stillman
16-10-2008, 13:52
In a wierd way, I think d3 will be perfect in my eyes, the way things are going. They just keep fixing so many things. I mean, the individual loot drops for one; why didn't I think of that, lol?
There's not much more I can to this thread atm besides this: I think anything extreme like not being allowed to wear full plate on a wizard or not having creative wierd builds to try would be huge mistakes by Blizzard. I can't help but ask, would they really do something so foolhardy? I believe many of us who don't even want to see wizards in heavy armor would still want the option there for sake of other players' freedom. Extreme limitations like the 2 I mentioned above just seem like a very rash thing for Blizzard to do, so I'm guessing they won't do something like that. It's just a guess though.
Basically, imo, Blizzard is employing auto-stating, but none of the extreme badness some of you forsee is going to happen. Again, just imo, but surely a bunch of the team members working on the game would not allow such terrible things to happen.
Mad Mantis
16-10-2008, 14:18
There are always different ways of handling things, but to say that Blizzard did something stupid because YOU with your nonexistant experience of game development don't agree is just foolish and pre-assumptive.
So that is why there have been changes to the art and the corpse system and why Bashiok is saying that he'll run the "stats on items"-question past the development team again? Just because they are working on the game doesn't mean that they can't do stupid things. Equally just because we aren't game devs doesn't mean we can't have good ideas.
People have a tendency to get stuck on a certain perspective if they work on it long enough. We outsiders can point things out that they either didn't consider or couldn't consider because they are stuck in their ways. That is not to say that everything we say has equal merit, or that the community can't say stupid things.
There is only one reason why they would not add attributes. Balancing. That's the one real reason. If you can create a balanceable att system... fire away... I tried to make one, I made my conclusions, you can, too.
I could try my hand at a balanced attribute system if I had more information regarding the game. But that doesn't mean that it can't be done. Even Blizz thinks that they can make a balanced attribute system. Only they plan to put the function of assignable attributes on items. They are confident that they can balance attributes via items and spells.
The reason that has been touted was because they wanted to prevent people from making ineffective characters. I would still allow people to make ineffective characters. Balance doesn't mean that all things should be equal.
The thing is that stats in D2 actually helped to keep better balance between items... The other thing is that without requirements on items and too much class-specific gear the customization is even more limited. Now the number of possible builds for each class is being dictated by developers rather than being left to players imagination. It's like "Ok, you can have your melee wizard - just use this sword, which we've made for your build, but the other one, that you might like to use has been specifficaly designed for a barb."
This is exactly my issue and I think this type of thinking can possibly be seen in more than just the change to attributes (the new pre-req system also seems to have the potential to really hamper meaningful variation by barring higher tier skills from hybrids, reducing the number of build setups to balance for at potentially significent expense of player choice). A dramatic loss in life is a reasonable balance against a dramatic loss of defense. To fix this problem we can only assume Blizzard will create quite hard restrictions which leaves very transparent setups for players to identify and little room to manouvre. Possibly a dnd style major penalty to movement speed/cast rate with heavier armour will be adopted, possibly some classes will simply be barred from certain armour times, possibly heavier armours (with a few carefully designed unique/set exceptions to showcase the armour graphic more than anything else) will simply have very unfavourable stats.
Level requirements represent a very clumsy form of item requirement that serves little purpose except limiting the effects of twinking.
There is only one reason why they would not add attributes. Balancing. That's the one real reason. If you can create a balanceable att system... fire away... I tried to make one, I made my conclusions, you can, too.
Yeah, I'm certain I could. Given Blizzard's resources including their huge pool of eager beta testers that is.
Sein Schatten
16-10-2008, 16:10
Something unrelated to the Bashiok comment, is something I've been reading on this board a lot. There seem to be a lot of people willing to accept hand-holding just to "make things easier for newcomers". What I don't understand is why people these days are so opposed to learning and failing. Why should you be able to come to a game you never played before and immediately create a powerful and successful character? What exactly is wrong with screwing up a char or three? I've had a lot of fun in D2 finding out what worked and what didn't. The reward when you find out what works for you is fantastic. But no one seems interested in it these days. Just a short rant of mine on a pet peeve subject.
You can screw up in WoW. How? Easy:
Make completely retarded builds. For example a sword rogue putting points into Improved Ambush and Mutilate (both need daggers to use the skill). That is an easy example. The second chance is to use utterly useless items for your class. I ****ING RAGED when a warlock rolled need on Nordic Longshank (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=9401) and Dragon's Call (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=10847) and won the items. Not the same warlock, though ;). The first a 5% chance to drop and the second a 0.03% chance. I busted several bloodvessels because of the rage. (I was on my rogue.)
I think Jay Wilson is very wrong here.
He is taking the easy way to help him get the job easier done, but it cuts a lot of customization and learning curve.
No one wants easier game, I think people actually like to be challenged and do thing their own way, the way they think is best, even though it might actually be bad. Still though the player should be able to choose his specs as it adds a lot of dynamic to the gameplay.
I'm not saying it won't be interesting this way, but its defenetly a loss!
bondball7
16-10-2008, 18:08
Call me crazy but I always thought that figuring out where to allocate your stats was one of the best parts of D2. Everyone hates it now because they have been playing for so long that they know where to put every point so you don't waste any, but try and remember when you first started. It was fun saving points and waiting to put them in and now that Blizzard is getting rid of that, I am a little disappointed because you basically cant **** up a build. It takes a lot of the fun away from learning the game.
Starving_Poet
16-10-2008, 18:27
Someone had brought up the idea of negative mods attached to stat modifiers and Oh, what I would do for the introduction of 'Cursed' Items again.
Anyone remember the Diablo 1 Jester's Prefix?
each swing does x0-6 dmg
Or the of Peril suffix?
x2 damage to monster
x1 damage to user
How many TRULY HELL VIABLE builds were there for each class in diablo II?
There is no proper build that can't be taken to Guardian with proper patience and the right merc in Diablo 2.
Heck, we've had random skill placement builds make Guardian in the SP Forum.
With the way a lot of the passive skills are now there is no way they are going to change their mind and let players allocate stats themselves. Might as well just give it up, they know what works best for their own game.
Apocalypse
16-10-2008, 21:14
they know what works best for their own game.
this is the only quote that keeps bothering me. just cause someone makes something does not mean they are 100% right no matter what. how many big budget piss poor movies(superman for example) have you seen where everyone knew this was for the best only to find out everyone hated it.
bondball7
16-10-2008, 21:39
i couldnt agree more Apoc.
"they know what works best for their own game" is a misnomer.
More accurately, they know a lot more about their final design of the game and can guess about how each decision will ultimately affect the total sum that is D3 version 1.0 than anyone else.
Doesn't stop them from making mistakes, but gives them a hell of a lot more authority on speaking whenever gameplay quality went down or up from D2 with the assignable attributes removed.
Starving_Poet
16-10-2008, 22:06
Actually, the problem actually comes from them being too close to their game. In other words, they know what they meant to make, and that what they see when they play.
It's really like trying to proof your own documents. They are always better after they've been edited by someone who doesn't know what was going through your head when you were writing it.
I find that proof-reading my documents after I take a break from them for a day or two works well enough.
My ratio of "What the **** was I thinking when I wrote this" to # of successful documents is far to large.
Gigashadow
16-10-2008, 22:36
I'm pretty sure Blizzard has their own team of proofreaders... Just random proofreaders won't help, especially proofreaders who neither use proper English nor have any respect for the company. Criticism to be effective needs to be constructive, and most of what I saw so far on this website is constructive indeed, but some is just what I call "whining"...
And I hold the belief is that if Blizzard is going in the wrong direction, they are doomed. A company needs to know what it is going to make, not take extensive advice from random fans. If they kept nearing towards fan input, we would be able to say that they have no idea what the heck are they doing.
Sure, they can make some mistakes. But if those mistakes are big, it's too late, I mean, if a company makes such major mistakes already, it will repeat them on and on... and if those mistakes are small, they are not fatal to the game. Perhaps many think that it is making major mistakes so far, but the players at Blizzcon seemed happy...
Diablo I wasn't made off fan input. Nor were many other games that made a large impact. A company can make a great game without outside advice...
This is a classic example of the fan base telling [experienced, the very best in the industry] devs how to design. I don't trust the fan base one bit. We aren't experts, we haven't studied game mechanics, strategy, or implementation. Therefore, I welcome all changes and ideas made by the devs. Especially if it helps balance the game, enjoyability, and color style! So please, do not change course, because I don't want to play the same old Diablo 2 for eons; I want to play a new exciting Diablo 3!
I repeat, the fan base has absolutely no sense when it comes game design! We are only here to judge "fun factor." Until that day occurs, we cannot make any form of judgement, until we have actually played the game (in its entirety) As it is, none of us hold any clout, some of those who have played the demo, have a vague idea, but the rest, NONE!!!
Devs, do what must be done!
This is a classic example of the fan base telling [experienced, the very best in the industry] devs how to design. I don't trust the fan base one bit. We aren't experts, we haven't studied game mechanics, strategy, or implementation. Therefore, I welcome all changes and ideas made by the devs. Especially if it helps balance the game, enjoyability, and color style! So please, do not change course, because I don't want to play the same old Diablo 2 for eons; I want to play a new exciting Diablo 3!
I repeat, the fan base has absolutely no sense when it comes game design! We are only here to judge "fun factor." Until that day occurs, we cannot make any form of judgement, until we have actually played the game (in its entirety) As it is, none of us hold any clout, some of those who have played the demo, have a vague idea, but the rest, NONE!!!
Devs, do what must be done!
*applause*
As someone who played the demo, I for one can't friggin wait to get my hands on the finished product. It's still Diablo, it still feels like Diablo, and it is going to be awesome when it launches.
inferno272
16-10-2008, 23:31
any character can now wield any weapon as long as they are a high enough level? stat points mean nothing?
this is the most retarded thing ive ever heard. i loved the new art design, and ive had zero complaints about the game, but this news is PUTRID! imho
Misinformation is grand, can't ya'll just wait til they show us the big picture? As oppose to judgin' individual decisions, and filling the gaps with our own twisted ideas of what we think may occur.. In reality, this may all turn out fine.. it really reminds me of fear factor.. chill, we got a long wait to go..
Apocalypse
16-10-2008, 23:45
any character can now wield any weapon as long as they are a high enough level? stat points mean nothing?
this is the most retarded thing ive ever heard. i loved the new art design, and ive had zero complaints about the game, but this news is PUTRID! imho
i like it but some limitations would also be fine
any character can now wield any weapon as long as they are a high enough level? stat points mean nothing?
this is the most retarded thing ive ever heard. i loved the new art design, and ive had zero complaints about the game, but this news is PUTRID! imho
have patience. we still know so little. although there's no stat requirements, i'm sure they will have some way to balance things out. for example, if two items had the exact same stats but one was plate and one was cloth... everybody would wear the plate right? i'm sure the devs are smart enough to know this... so they'll balance it out somehow. perhaps higher armor will have less stats. or maybe there will be a weight system that affects movement/casting/attack speed.
we know too little to make a snap judgement. have patience and faith!
poroboszcz
17-10-2008, 01:06
This is a classic example of the fan base telling [experienced, the very best in the industry] devs how to design. I don't trust the fan base one bit. We aren't experts, we haven't studied game mechanics, strategy, or implementation. Therefore, I welcome all changes and ideas made by the devs. Especially if it helps balance the game, enjoyability, and color style! So please, do not change course, because I don't want to play the same old Diablo 2 for eons; I want to play a new exciting Diablo 3!
I repeat, the fan base has absolutely no sense when it comes game design! We are only here to judge "fun factor." Until that day occurs, we cannot make any form of judgement, until we have actually played the game (in its entirety) As it is, none of us hold any clout, some of those who have played the demo, have a vague idea, but the rest, NONE!!!
Devs, do what must be done!
Sorry, but I disagree with you on that matter. You have to realize the diffrence between the developers and players - the product engineers and it's end-users. Just because most of us are not proffesional software developers it doesn't mean that we don't have a sense of what makes the game good. Most of people from this forums have spent much more time playing D2 that any of D3 developers probably ever did. We are the one that know exactly what kept us playing for so many hours and which features we'd like to see in D3. As an analogy, when you hire an architect, to build you a house, you don't ask him what house you should be living in - you tell him that. His job is to simply make it happen. We don't tell developers how to do their job. We don't instruct them how to code or how to implement the physics engine into the game. We are simply giving our feedback on what's been shown so far as an experienced players and buyers of the future product.
Blizzard is making a sequel to an exceptionally good game and one of the reasons they've announced it so early before release date is to get feedback from players. They could have chosen another path, like Bethesda did with Fallout 3, although I'm pretty sure that Blizzard's strategy will result in much better product.
As an analogy, when you hire an architect, to build you a house, you don't ask him what house you should be living in - you tell him that. His job is to simply make it happen. We don't tell developers how to do their job. We don't instruct them how to code or how to implement the physics engine into the game. We are simply giving our feedback on what's been shown so far as an experienced players and buyers of the future product.
as a counterpoint to your post... i've hired architects in real life and you really just generally give them an idea of what you want. they're the ones with the expertise and they will tell you when you are wrong, and they will tell you how to make things better.
to apply this to diablo 3... i think it's our job to give blizzard a sense of direction and some good suggestions. but they are the ones with expertise. it's up to us to trust them to a certain extent to do their jobs to create a great game.
Hellspawn
17-10-2008, 01:19
So for those of you who played at blizzcon, did you or anyone else see any items for your class that you could not wield due to some kind of requirement?
I'm certian Blizz will not allow uber elite weapons to be wielded by level 1's when the game goes gold, so chillll people ;).
So for those of you who played at blizzcon, did you or anyone else see any items for your class that you could not wield due to some kind of requirement?
I'm certian Blizz will not allow uber elite weapons to be wielded by level 1's when the game goes gold, so chillll people ;).
blizzcon attendee here.
no i didn't notice any items that my character couldn't use. i'm a little embarrassed that i didn't look to see if there were level reqs though. i did notice no stat reqs but at the time i figured that was just something they hadn't implemented/balanced yet.
Apocalypse
17-10-2008, 02:40
i would guess that they might not have clvl on the items yet but that does not matter, end game there will be a clvl to use items thats a guarentee
Gigashadow
17-10-2008, 03:12
any character can now wield any weapon as long as they are a high enough level? stat points mean nothing?
this is the most retarded thing ive ever heard...Now, this is the kind of useless criticism I was talking above... we don't need this...
It's like games without stat requirements didn't exist before and after Diablo...
Angel_of_Wrath
17-10-2008, 07:57
Man I really wish they did an auto-level-up button (like KotOR) and did their balancing off that. That way, the items would be balanced and planned for like they want and newbies will not have to f up their first few characters. On the same token, players would be free to go outside the norm and max strength on their assassin or max block on their sorc if they want to.
Seems constricting and less RPG in the ARPG. I understand the point of moving towards a skill based character with items that serve to boost stats but.... hmmm, hard to really know until we see a dump of items. At least they made stats mean more than 'x life per vitality point'.
Just because most of us are not proffesional software developers it doesn't mean that we don't have a sense of what makes the game good.
Since you haven't played the game, it's going to be difficult making a judgement. You can't compare two games, when you've only played one.
Most of people from this forums have spent much more time playing D2 that any of D3 developers probably ever did. We are the one that know exactly what kept us playing for so many hours and which features we'd like to see in D3.
Other than addiction, the fact of the matter is you haven't played Diablo 3. The devs, have, they are experienced and know what will make Diablo 3 fun. This is not a discussion about Diablo 2, because you cannot compare an apple to an orange, even if they share the same universe.
As an analogy, when you hire an architect, to build you a house, you don't ask him what house you should be living in - you tell him that.
The analogy fails. When you hire an architect, you give him a basic vision of your interest. However, the architect makes all the important strategic decisions because of his knowledge and expertise. You may disagree here and there, but he will effectively dictate how you live.
We don't tell developers how to do their job. We don't instruct them how to code or how to implement the physics engine into the game. We are simply giving our feedback on what's been shown so far as an experienced players and buyers of the future product.
Don't you think they have studied, and have enough experience, knowledge, and expertise to do the job correctly? Why would anyone think a gamer is more suited to make these kinds of decisions? Gamers really only think they know something...
One of the reasons they've announced it so early before release date is to get feedback from players.
Don't kid yourself, Blizzard has an agenda. For every tid-bit of information leaked, it creates a feeding frenzy. We're like piranhas, we give them tons of free press, by emailing these stories to our friends. That is equivalent to many million copies sold. (Feedback? <- that's what the Betas are for)
Mad Mantis
17-10-2008, 10:01
Since you haven't played the game, it's going to be difficult making a judgement.
Only up to a certain point. We didn't play the game and commented on the art. Blizz agreed and changed it. We didn't play the game and commented on the copses. Blizz agreed and changed it. It is not right to say that we need to play everything to make a judgment. Some aspects of the game need to be personally experienced before commenting on, but there are aspects that can be judged via screenshots and movies just fine.
This isn't to say that all criticism is valid, or that proposed mechanisms won't be adequate. But there are simply some aspects of the game that gamers have a different view on than game developers. The fact that they think in the whole picture might even be part of the problem. The only thing gamers need to be concerned about is what would be fun to play. This position might give devs a viewpoint they don't have.
The analogy fails. When you hire an architect, you give him a basic vision of your interest. However, the architect makes all the important strategic decisions because of his knowledge and expertise. You may disagree here and there, but he will effectively dictate how you live.
If he decides that my living room needs to be two square meters and I need a pantry that is eighty square meters I'll politely tell him he is nuts and if he doesn't change the drawing this afternoon he'll be looking for another client. The same can be said about game devs. They may think it is all about the pantry, while the players always regarded it as being all about the living room. There are tons of examples of professionals doing their jobs wrong and lay people noticing that it is wrong.
Art is different, it's a snapshot, you can look and judge, of course. But without glimpsing the composition in its entirety, you're missing the point. Game mechanics are similiar in that way; if we don't know all the strings attached, its rather difficult to form an idea, as to whether it will work or not. For example, will the devs add something to counter-balance what they are removing? We simply don't know, therefore, we can't quite judge. Form an opinion, yes, but based on the information, none of it holds clout, until we see how it all works in conjunction.
Every drawing an architect creates, is one he dictates for you, of course you can say draw me another, and another.. In the end, it's his drawing style, standards, and ego..
Apocalypse
17-10-2008, 14:08
of course we can judge, infact they want us to judge, that is why they announce the games 2+ years in advance
xenoterracide
17-10-2008, 15:37
I agree this is a bad idea. it further takes away from customization and diversity. It will likely mean many characters can't use certain items making them almost class specific.
diablo 2 is unbalanced, but not because of character attributes.
No amount of vitae and resistance (save immunity) seems to make the scarab demons charged bolt less deadly. I could kill them easy had fair hp for the level and 80 resistance and they still knocked me down to like 10% health. the damage was too high for them, it had nothing to do with my stats. I was an a4 char running around in a2. Izual, is also overpowered in the sense he has too many hitpoints. I've been in groups pounding on him for 10 minutes and he can't touch us. it's just a clickfest. annoying.
I think blizzard should take their 'ideal' stats and use those for play testing. then let us worry about whether we can figure them out or become overpowering or whatever.
I don't want my character to end up like my D2 Merc where I can only use certain items because that's what I was allowed to. Making character restrictions will do that. if anything I want less restrictions, on me and my hirelings. let me do what I want to.
for those saying it's Blizzards game. Blizzard will of course play their game, but more than that they want us to buy and play their game. They are making a game for us, not for them. They expect us to pay for it so it is not a gift. Which means I'd like some say in a product I'm going to be paying for. If I can say it now and have the game be better then I will.
as for how long it would take to fix the code... it probably wouldn't. It sounds to me like they tried it already and removed it (adding code back in is easy). which is why I suggest they worry less about what characters are going to have and go back to leveled drops that are mostly random.
Apocalypse
17-10-2008, 16:00
I agree this is a bad idea. it further takes away from customization and diversity. It will likely mean many characters can't use certain items making them almost class specific.
guessing you have not been following the news much, no items will have stat requirements on them. so you can still use whatever you want with who you want, except for already class specific items and assuming you meet the clvl
xenoterracide
17-10-2008, 17:43
I had caught that after I posted... not be be continually unsatisfied on this point. but that still sounds like a lack of diversity. It also sounds like gross simplification.
I'm tired of games being simplified. although I haven't been able to play so many new games in the last year (comp not powerful enough). In the past 5 games seem to have gotten progressively simplified. FPS seem to be reduced to the mass hordes of generic enemies, RTS have been reduced to build a big army and crush your enemy (see starcraft vs warhammer 40k DoW). CRPG's... well... with all the MMO's that I refuse to play I can't say much but they seem to have been less affected, and less dumbed down.
basically what it sounds like is that attributes are going to cease to matter. Sure they will still matter to some degree (combat calculations) but not to the degree they did before.
so far i'm liking the lack of stats. the argument that it's a lack of diversity is completely bunk imo. let's be honest, how many melee sorcs or bow wielding necros did you see in d2? yeah that was partly because of skills but a lot of it had to do with requirements as well. you now have the maximum diversity possible. ANY character can use almost ANY item. you can use a 2 handed axe on your sorc if you so choose!
the second point about over simplification has a little more weight. it's true... not having stat requirements makes everything simpler. i think blizzard knows this and there will be other factors (that we don't know yet obviously) that will again un-simplify matters.
perhaps wearing different types of armor will affect things like your movement, casting, or attack speed... something that you will need to balance when choosing to wear plate armor or cloth armor. perhaps weapons will have different stats based on who uses them... swing speed, damage, etc.
there's so much we don't know yet... let's wait and see before we make any judgements.
Apocalypse
17-10-2008, 20:39
question i have is, do characters increase in hp the same? 1 vit = 2 health for everyone? or is it 1 vit = 3 health for barb 2 for some other class and 1 for sorc/wd? (random numbers).
of course we can judge, infact they want us to judge, that is why they announce the games 2+ years in advance
Exactly, but one thing, Blizzard could care less, what we say. They already have a plan.
None of our commentaries hold any clout with regards to D3. All we do here, is provide our friends with more hype and hysteria of which will enable them to sell copies, to you, your friend, and your friend's friend, and so on and so forth. It's a ponzi scheme! Instead of releasing a game instantaneously, they feed it slowly, seeping, but surely to the top! Your friends, their friends.. in the end, everybody will satiate for the product! It's really more marketing and building of hype, because seriously, they already know and have a plan, and a goal of what they want to do.
Of course, you can form a subjective opinion, as everyone does, but to go as far, and say, "this will not work," is purely guess work!
The number one goal for Blizzard, is to sell. It's likely Blizzard [operative] is sneaking about similar forums (as subcontracted [marketer]), intentionally hyping information to create, yet even more buzz!
Blizzard does everything for a reason, because they have a plan; just as an architect, they know what is coming and know how to plan for it (and have planned for it!)
There are tons of examples of professionals doing their jobs wrong and lay people noticing that it is wrong.
Competency is not an issue here, Blizzard has the best of the best... What's there to doubt? It's not like "Joe Six-pack" is head of Art direction...
Mad Mantis
17-10-2008, 20:49
just as an architect, they know what is coming and know how to plan for it.
I'm beginning to dislike architects. :wink:
Gigashadow
17-10-2008, 21:01
Well, as I already pointed out...
A company either knows what's it doing, or it doesn't. If a company is incompetent, nothing you will say will change that fact. If the company is good, again, nothing you will say will change that fact.
And I don't remember them changing the art direction or doing anything else because fans asked for it... they may say so, and people may want to believe that they affect the decisions of a huge company, and I'm pretty sure Blizzard is constantly considering and trying things out, but to say that your opinion directly changed Blizzard's opinion is, in the least, arrogant.
Apocalypse
17-10-2008, 21:01
Exactly, but one thing, Blizzard could care less, what we say. They already have a plan.
gotta disagree here, we have already seen changes in the game based on public reaction
If you so believe... Like the Architect, they already have a plan of action (and an agenda)
Starving_Poet
17-10-2008, 21:43
Also like the Architect, if we don't pay them, all their expertise is worth nothing :)
Because an architect really cares when people don't buy a house or two after he designs a couple of cities.
Blizzard doesnt care if some people dont buy the game because they wouldnt change something in the game.
whiteboi
18-10-2008, 01:27
This is a pretty touchy subject at this point I mean I think we have an equal number of people agreeing and disagreeing with this change. There are definitely pros and cons to this change and we should look at it from an unbiased standpoint.
Pros:
1. I think the main pro of this is that it makes balancing the game MUCH easier. Having said this people may say that the devs are taking the easy way out however, i do not think this is the case. I think they chose this change for a different reason which being a very item dependent game.
2. I think this change makes the game much more item dependent. If you look at diablo 2 right now. there are a lot of unique items in the game but some are used some if ever. I have to admit I did not play wow past level 30 so I cannot speak much on it but, I really liked how there were so many items and what you wore really affected how your character played. I didnt like in diablo 2 how there was one or two sets of items that people wore and left the others in the dust. This new item dependency, along with the spell runes will make playing your character and still unique to how you want it.
Cons:
1. I think the biggest con in my book is going to be customizing the CORE of your character. Thing great thing about having attributes you can choose is creating a sorcerer that can tank with a high vitality or a very intelligent barbarian. these core play styles affect players greatly not just game play wise but role play wise as well.
2. I know Blizzard has talked about wanting to add more role play aspects to the game and in my opinion, this takes away from role playing styles of some players.
In my opinion:
This is a great change of pace I think. I know I might get shot down because I think it is a good change but I know some people will agree. I think there will be more ways to play your character and this change also means that it is safe to say:
THERE WILL BE MORE GOODIES TO PICK UP!
Austin.
There's no turning back, Diablo has clutched thy soul! Thou shalt pay!
(I wouldnt be here, if I didnt want to play the game, would I? Why would anyone be here, if they didnt want to play? You all want to play! If not, why are we here? Why are we discussing this nonsense? If all of us didn't deep down want to play? Then why are we still here? Everyone is talking = the first sign of success! It's gonna be HUGE!) Ok, I better stop this nonsense, I'm going koo koo for coco-puffs and I'm really hungry! and I should quit looking at these forums, but people keep sending me emails, and updates.. and blah, Blizzard is owning everyone. Blizzard is Evile.
Apocalypse
18-10-2008, 03:14
i will fully admit that at this point bliz could take a crap in the box and i would still buy it, i will however spent the next 2 years talking about what i like and what i think could be better
whiteboi
18-10-2008, 05:34
wont we all...
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