Bowazons in PvP - food or fun?

[sequoia]

In your personal experience, how have the zons you met matched up?

I hear two COMPLETELY different camps:
A) Amazons can take out every character, are a ***** for everyone, and can be a force.
B) Amazons are the kids who picked on in the playground - everyone loves killing them.

What is your opinion?

[Kijya]

Really different from zon to zon, an overall generalization cannot be made IMO.

Only clear thing I can say is that a good ww/trapper > zons, and since I play a ww/trapper often, the zons I meet are commonly easy to medium. Only a handful have been so skilled that I've had problems, but those that do are a force to be reckoned with.

In tvt a bowzon can be a real pain to deal with.

[Raith]

pure bowazon? well, charge/smite will eat you alone. bone necros will always eat you, hands down. you can survive charge/smite, but never bone necros.

[mephiztophelez]

a well built, well played bowa'zon is a tough opponent for most classes.

a badly built or badly played bowy is ezpk for all and sundry.

[sequoia]

Thanks for the input guys. As expected, a weak bowazon is basically food.

But is it really true that a very strong bowazon will always lose to a bone necro or charger? Doesn't evade help stop charge lock?

[Spinns]

Bowaz often rely on a lot of frw to get some distance then make their move although you can get saved by your passive skills charge has essentially slosed the gamp in an instant which means even if the pally doesn't manage to get a charge lock happening they can just switch to smite and own you that way
That being said there is no such thing as certain doom just more than likely so if you play smart against any class you always have a chance of winning even if its a slim one

[bluewiind]

A well played and well equipped Hybrid zon with enough frw to desynch can be a force to recon with. See this: http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=573409. When I played mine I had over 200 frw with Titan switch and the only char I had consistent trouble with was a skilled windy.

[NoisemakerArrow]

I use a BvA mainly, and rarely lose to bowazons. Even good ones can't beat me consistently. And I don't even use Doom/Stormshield. But if I did, I'd win 100% against the good ones too.

[SlainByPain]

Telesmite and pure charger are the hardest to deal with for a bowazon. Telesmite combined with charge desync especially. Pure chargers deal too much damage to cope with in theory. However, these are rare and the few that exist are normally subpar/decide to smite.

Bone necros aren't impossible to deal with unless they BM. (In which case you can juv, tap, whatever). The biggest annoyance here is the golem slow. Avoid this and they will have a very hard time hitting you at all.

Hybrid assassins aren't hard to deal with if you have the right build. Most zons have trouble with these because they have both low poison and light resists. With high resists combined with WSG, their damage will be much easier to handle.

Windies aren't very hard to deal with if you know what you're doing and have good life/dr. Getting rid of their summons with either multishot or LF is essential. Poison damage or open wounds can actually help here since good ones will likely retreat to recast. Maxblock makes these a lot harder, but these seem rather rare nowadays.

BvAs are hard for pure bowazons I suppose. This duel is mainly about the skill of each player.

If anyone wants to prove me wrong on ESCL I'll be happy to duel vs. any character with my hybrid.

[NoisemakerArrow]

I meant that even bowazons that use Titan's/Stormshield aren't that hard for a BvA. I consider Stus good, for example.

And, as I said, BvAs always have the fallback option of Doom/Stormshield.

Also, I don't consider Bone Prison to be BM. You should expect it from necros, just like you should be expecting Conviction from certain pallies. But leaving that aside, it pretty much boils down to "If BP, zon loses, if no BP, zon has a chance", no?

[SlainByPain]

When I say pure bowazon I mean one with titans/ss on switch. I don't know what kind of serious PvPer would use anything else unless you are going a vita build and don't feel like keeping CTA in a cube or something.

Doom/holy freeze is BM vs. melee, especially zons.

Bone prison is and always has been BM against non teleporting characters. Also, if the necro isn't MB a well balanced bowazon shouldn't lose even with BP.

It's a sad fate that there are very few good zvas left anymore. Bowazons seem bad because people have the wrong idea. When it comes to hammerdins people can understand that 16k damage isn't worth it. But for bowazons, the majority of people still believe that aiming for 7.5k physical damage at 7 frames in conjunction with mass frw and 600 life is a good idea.

[NoisemakerArrow]

As has been said many times, BM is a matter of opinion. If your zon can use a pally aura, why can't my barb?

And I ask again: If you're not going to use BP against non-teleporting characters, who are you going to use it against?

Yes, most zons just town hug and brag about their damage, but they die very easily. I suspect the good ones put some points in Vitality, too.

[SlainByPain]

BM/GM is about fairness and standardized rules. By your definition, using revives wouldn't be BM either. You don't use BP just as you wouldn't use revives.

It's not that using pally auras is BM, it's just that holy freeze is bm in general, as is exile vs. barbs, etc.

Most established dueling communities have considered BP/holy freeze bm.

[NASE]

As has been said many times, BM is a matter of opinion. If your zon can use a pally aura, why can't my barb?

The reason why holyfreeze is considered MB, is because it renders a bowazon completely useless. Just like throwing a nuclear bomb. It just isn't done, it just isn't fair.


I always feel like you need to make a distinction between different forms of duelling. There is much difference between pubduels where people can go 7 vs 1 and use bm and between manner duels one on one.
A low life character, low defence character like a bowazon suffers much more from an accidental hit then a 4k life hammerdin.

Therefore, I believe that most people who talk about bowazons in pubs duels may be right about the weakness of a bowazon. However, in mannered 1 vs 1, they really can hold their own.

P.S. I thought titan/ss/knockback was the perfect solution to chargers/smiters. Just prevent them from getting you into stunlock by walking back and throwing javelin to knockback them back.

[SlainByPain]

Titans/ss/knockback is the solution for the vast majority of smiters. However, the best will not simply charge at you, but rather use a combination of desync and telesmite. In such cases you have to carefully time between running, walking, bow, and javelins.

[Gimmershred]

i am very happy with my telebow/pjav hybrid. If some people show some interest i might write a guide later on.

[SlainByPain]

Do you have decent damage with bow or is it just for lasthit? I'm interested to see a telebow/plague hybrid that can actually deal damage with a bow whilst maintaining decent fcr.

[Gimmershred]

1.3 - 3.6k 7fpa Guided arrow with faith matri. (pure physical dmg , no poison charms)
46k plague javelin over 17.8 seconds
68% fcr on both switches when i use stormshield
99%fcr on shieldswitch with spirit
1.8k life with cubebo (cta4)
Knockback
CBF
enough ias stacked to counter 10% slow
55/64/55 dodges and 70% critical
decent resist and swapgear to get max resists in hell.
105%frw on javswitch

that's my zon in a nutshell. Still interested in a guide?

[paul leung]

how a zon aganist a cry barb/nova block es sorc,just wonder.aany idea?

[sweetalmonds]

1.3 - 3.6k 7fpa Guided arrow with faith matri. (pure physical dmg , no poison charms)
46k plague javelin over 17.8 seconds
68% fcr on both switches when i use stormshield
99%fcr on shieldswitch with spirit
1.8k life with cubebo (cta4)
Knockback
CBF
enough ias stacked to counter 10% slow
55/64/55 dodges and 70% critical
decent resist and swapgear to get max resists in hell.
105%frw on javswitch

that's my zon in a nutshell. Still interested in a guide?

Guide pl0x

[Zelator]

1.3 - 3.6k 7fpa Guided arrow with faith matri. (pure physical dmg , no poison charms)
46k plague javelin over 17.8 seconds
68% fcr on both switches when i use stormshield
99%fcr on shieldswitch with spirit
1.8k life with cubebo (cta4)
Knockback
CBF
enough ias stacked to counter 10% slow
55/64/55 dodges and 70% critical
decent resist and swapgear to get max resists in hell.
105%frw on javswitch

that's my zon in a nutshell. Still interested in a guide?

ya, guide pl0x

[Uncle_Mike]

1.3 - 3.6k 7fpa Guided arrow with faith matri. (pure physical dmg , no poison charms)
46k plague javelin over 17.8 seconds
68% fcr on both switches when i use stormshield
99%fcr on shieldswitch with spirit
1.8k life with cubebo (cta4)
Knockback
CBF
enough ias stacked to counter 10% slow
55/64/55 dodges and 70% critical
decent resist and swapgear to get max resists in hell.
105%frw on javswitch

that's my zon in a nutshell. Still interested in a guide?

Guide pl0x :yes:

[Jell-O]

1.3 - 3.6k 7fpa Guided arrow with faith matri. (pure physical dmg , no poison charms)
46k plague javelin over 17.8 seconds
68% fcr on both switches when i use stormshield
99%fcr on shieldswitch with spirit
1.8k life with cubebo (cta4)
Knockback
CBF
enough ias stacked to counter 10% slow
55/64/55 dodges and 70% critical
decent resist and swapgear to get max resists in hell.
105%frw on javswitch

that's my zon in a nutshell. Still interested in a guide?
Guide pl0x!

[marekhwat]

1.3 - 3.6k 7fpa Guided arrow with faith matri. (pure physical dmg , no poison charms)
46k plague javelin over 17.8 seconds
68% fcr on both switches when i use stormshield
99%fcr on shieldswitch with spirit
1.8k life with cubebo (cta4)
Knockback
CBF
enough ias stacked to counter 10% slow
55/64/55 dodges and 70% critical
decent resist and swapgear to get max resists in hell.
105%frw on javswitch

that's my zon in a nutshell. Still interested in a guide?

guide pl0x

[ekorren]

1.3 - 3.6k 7fpa Guided arrow with faith matri. (pure physical dmg , no poison charms)
46k plague javelin over 17.8 seconds
68% fcr on both switches when i use stormshield
99%fcr on shieldswitch with spirit
1.8k life with cubebo (cta4)
Knockback
CBF
enough ias stacked to counter 10% slow
55/64/55 dodges and 70% critical
decent resist and swapgear to get max resists in hell.
105%frw on javswitch

that's my zon in a nutshell. Still interested in a guide?

Guide pl0x!

[harryhaller]

1.3 - 3.6k 7fpa Guided arrow with faith matri. (pure physical dmg , no poison charms)
46k plague javelin over 17.8 seconds
68% fcr on both switches when i use stormshield
99%fcr on shieldswitch with spirit
1.8k life with cubebo (cta4)
Knockback
CBF
enough ias stacked to counter 10% slow
55/64/55 dodges and 70% critical
decent resist and swapgear to get max resists in hell.
105%frw on javswitch

that's my zon in a nutshell. Still interested in a guide?

Guide pl0x!

[aman]

1.3 - 3.6k 7fpa Guided arrow with faith matri. (pure physical dmg , no poison charms)
46k plague javelin over 17.8 seconds
68% fcr on both switches when i use stormshield
99%fcr on shieldswitch with spirit
1.8k life with cubebo (cta4)
Knockback
CBF
enough ias stacked to counter 10% slow
55/64/55 dodges and 70% critical
decent resist and swapgear to get max resists in hell.
105%frw on javswitch

that's my zon in a nutshell. Still interested in a guide?

Guide pl0x

[Hyarmenion]

1.3 - 3.6k 7fpa Guided arrow with faith matri. (pure physical dmg , no poison charms)
46k plague javelin over 17.8 seconds
68% fcr on both switches when i use stormshield
99%fcr on shieldswitch with spirit
1.8k life with cubebo (cta4)
Knockback
CBF
enough ias stacked to counter 10% slow
55/64/55 dodges and 70% critical
decent resist and swapgear to get max resists in hell.
105%frw on javswitch

that's my zon in a nutshell. Still interested in a guide?

Guide pl0x

[marcello]

1.3 - 3.6k 7fpa Guided arrow with faith matri. (pure physical dmg , no poison charms)
46k plague javelin over 17.8 seconds
68% fcr on both switches when i use stormshield
99%fcr on shieldswitch with spirit
1.8k life with cubebo (cta4)
Knockback
CBF
enough ias stacked to counter 10% slow
55/64/55 dodges and 70% critical
decent resist and swapgear to get max resists in hell.
105%frw on javswitch

that's my zon in a nutshell. Still interested in a guide?

Guide pl0x

[Ludacris]

1.3 - 3.6k 7fpa Guided arrow with faith matri. (pure physical dmg , no poison charms)
46k plague javelin over 17.8 seconds
68% fcr on both switches when i use stormshield
99%fcr on shieldswitch with spirit
1.8k life with cubebo (cta4)
Knockback
CBF
enough ias stacked to counter 10% slow
55/64/55 dodges and 70% critical
decent resist and swapgear to get max resists in hell.
105%frw on javswitch

that's my zon in a nutshell. Still interested in a guide?

Guide pl0x

[Varyafirion]

1.3 - 3.6k 7fpa Guided arrow with faith matri. (pure physical dmg , no poison charms)
46k plague javelin over 17.8 seconds
68% fcr on both switches when i use stormshield
99%fcr on shieldswitch with spirit
1.8k life with cubebo (cta4)
Knockback
CBF
enough ias stacked to counter 10% slow
55/64/55 dodges and 70% critical
decent resist and swapgear to get max resists in hell.
105%frw on javswitch

that's my zon in a nutshell. Still interested in a guide?

I, too, would very much appreciate a guide. (ha!)

[Gimmershred]

ok, guide coming.

[Uncle_Mike]

ok, guide coming.

You could have waited a bit with that reply, had plenty more posts coming from people all over the board :whistling:

A guide would be awesome though, so no complaints here :girly:

[Furyan]

1.3 - 3.6k 7fpa Guided arrow with faith matri. (pure physical dmg , no poison charms)
46k plague javelin over 17.8 seconds
68% fcr on both switches when i use stormshield
99%fcr on shieldswitch with spirit
1.8k life with cubebo (cta4)
Knockback
CBF
enough ias stacked to counter 10% slow
55/64/55 dodges and 70% critical
decent resist and swapgear to get max resists in hell.
105%frw on javswitch

that's my zon in a nutshell. Still interested in a guide?

Guide pl0x

[Findux]

1.3 - 3.6k 7fpa Guided arrow with faith matri. (pure physical dmg , no poison charms)
46k plague javelin over 17.8 seconds
68% fcr on both switches when i use stormshield
99%fcr on shieldswitch with spirit
1.8k life with cubebo (cta4)
Knockback
CBF
enough ias stacked to counter 10% slow
55/64/55 dodges and 70% critical
decent resist and swapgear to get max resists in hell.
105%frw on javswitch

that's my zon in a nutshell. Still interested in a guide?

Guide pl0x

[korialstraz]

1.3 - 3.6k 7fpa Guided arrow with faith matri. (pure physical dmg , no poison charms)
46k plague javelin over 17.8 seconds
68% fcr on both switches when i use stormshield
99%fcr on shieldswitch with spirit
1.8k life with cubebo (cta4)
Knockback
CBF
enough ias stacked to counter 10% slow
55/64/55 dodges and 70% critical
decent resist and swapgear to get max resists in hell.
105%frw on javswitch

that's my zon in a nutshell. Still interested in a guide?

guide pl0x

I hope I wasn't too late :crazyeyes:

[Gimmershred]

watch a few topics down, first draft of the guide is there already.

[Fluffypaw]

1.3 - 3.6k 7fpa Guided arrow with faith matri. (pure physical dmg , no poison charms)
46k plague javelin over 17.8 seconds
68% fcr on both switches when i use stormshield
99%fcr on shieldswitch with spirit
1.8k life with cubebo (cta4)
Knockback
CBF
enough ias stacked to counter 10% slow
55/64/55 dodges and 70% critical
decent resist and swapgear to get max resists in hell.
105%frw on javswitch

that's my zon in a nutshell. Still interested in a guide?

Guide pl0x!

[harconst]

1.3 - 3.6k 7fpa Guided arrow with faith matri. (pure physical dmg , no poison charms)
46k plague javelin over 17.8 seconds
68% fcr on both switches when i use stormshield
99%fcr on shieldswitch with spirit
1.8k life with cubebo (cta4)
Knockback
CBF
enough ias stacked to counter 10% slow
55/64/55 dodges and 70% critical
decent resist and swapgear to get max resists in hell.
105%frw on javswitch

that's my zon in a nutshell. Still interested in a guide?

Guide pl0x

[Uncle_Mike]

Guide pl0x

It's already been posted, we're no longer spamming that :crazyeyes:

[Moritz]

my personal opinion to the actual topic:

really awesome bowzon players that have really good equipment pose a threat to most people in 1v1 duels.
really awesome bowzon players that have really good equipment are extremely powerful in tvts if they play together with the right people.

HOWEVER, if it comes down to top notch gm 1v1 dueling ... bowzons - no matter which exact build, no matter which player - will not be able to win against most well-known pvp builds. if a zon player tells otherwise he/she hasnt dueled anyone really skilled of the particular charclasses.
thats my opinion.