Ultra-rare/Nonexistent Uniques

[Clervis]

So I've been doing Nightmare runs of the Butcher and I've come to the realization that the creators of Diablo I are retarded. Don't get me wrong, the game is one of a kind and the godfather of practically a whole genre, but the mechanics are all messed up. Not only that, but this is the 9th version and they still haven't fixed it.

Let me explain. When a monster drops an item, first the game determines the base item. Then it gives it a 16% chance to become a unique, provided there is a unique for that base item and the unique is within the qlvl. If it is unique there is a unique available, then it will drop the one with the highest qlvl, and if they're the same qlvl, it will pick the first one on its list. However, because the game works this way, the items with the lower qlvl or the items lower on the list will never drop. So, I've counted about 30 unique items that won't drop.

Now, there is a way around this. You can fight monsters with low qlvls, but they still have to be high enough levels to drop the base item, which typically is much higher. Usually this means going to Nightmare difficulty. Of course, this means that the monster will be able to drop almost any base item, making it extremely hard to find any particular piece of gear. But the worst part, is that only a very narrow selection of enemies can drop these items. In most cases only the unique monsters on level 2 of Nightmare difficulty. Even then there are still about 15 uniques that will never drop no matter who you kill.

So now I'm stuck doing Butcher runs all day, getting no experience, on the off chance that I'll find my Helm of Sprits.

[Kunzaito]

That drop system (always picking the first item) is really silly. There aren't *too* many uniques that are absolutely unfindable in multiplayer. Turning to Jarulf, we find:

Bramble (ring)
Crackrust (mace)
The Deflector (Buckler)
Gonnagal's Dirk (dagger)
Lightforge (mace)
The Mangler (large axe)

Technically, it *is* possible to find all these in single player, because the game keeps track of what you've found in the drop list. However, you'd have to have the exact same item drop unique in the same game and same play session (it resets if you save and quit). A difficult task, to be sure, and one that makes finding a Lightforge almost astronomically improbable, since you'd have to find *three* unique maces in the same game.

What I am curious about is the items that are findable, but have an extraordinarily low probability of dropping. If you check the probability charts, most uniques hover between the 1/20 and 1/100 range. Even your coveted Helm of Spirits has a 1/130 chance in Nightmare, and 1/140 chance in Hell. Some items, though, totally blow the curve: for example, the best chance you have of finding The Deadly Hunter, a bow, is 1/2100, in Nightmare! What gives!

[Clervis]

I suppose it's not that bad considering a lot of the uniques will provide you with a good mod and then match it or overcompensate with bad mods. Most of these ultrarare items are almost as poor as their base item. Bleh. It really goes to show how much they improved on the loot aspect in DII.

[Lanthanide]

I think the mixed-baggedness of the uniques in D1 is pretty charming. The uniques in D2 tend to go a bit over the top.

Probably the main problem with D1 uniques is that pretty much all of the weapons were useless for warriors, and a select few others were fantastic for mages and rogues.

Doesn't Jarulf's guide have a comprehensive list of which dlvls are best to find uniques on, and what your chances are on each level?

[Clervis]

Yea, Jarulf's gives you the best dlvl as well as your chances of finding the item if you kill everything and flip every stone, chest, corpse, etc., which is what Kunzaito was referring to with the 1/130 chance. I found that you've got about 1/150 chance of getting a Helm of Sprits from those unique monsters on dlvl 2. Which means about 6 out of 7 of its drops come those monsters.

But, yea, the uniques in DII are over the top. And everytime they came up with a patch or new runewords, things just got more and more over the top.

The grandfather is pretty cool, but becomes inferior fairly fast. Then I have my Sorc w/ Dreamflange, Naj's Lightplate, Stormshield, and Thinking Cap. My Rogue has Windforce, Scavenger's Carpace, and Helm of Sprits. Whereas my warrior only has a unique helm.

[Lanthanide]

I was pretty sure that life stealing didn't work with bows, because arrows are treated as spells by the game and therefore don't leech life?

[Clervis]

You're right. What does she have? I think it's a Veil of Steel.

[Alash]

Just popping in from the D2 section, and I must say I'm enjoying this discussion. Admittedly I haven't played D1 for around 5 years, so I'm rusty on the details to say the least, but that's aside the point. I just began playing hardcore here in D2, and haven't the godly 800% MF Meteor Sorceress that I have in softcore, so I'm stuck with doing the same kind of runs you are, if but with a different name.

Now, what surprise me is that you find these drop-rates so low. Compared to the single-player mode in D2, finding a specific item without a ridiculous amount of MF from a boss is usually 1/300-1/3000. And even with that Sorceress I mentioned, I've done 621 logged Mephisto runs, without yet having gotten a list of the most probable items, like Shako, Herald of Zakarum, Stone of Jordan, Mara's Kaleidoscope etc. You don't have waypoints or Teleport to speed things up in D1, which complicates a fair comparison, but perhaps you could enlighten me as to how long it would take to (theoretically) farm a Helm of Spirits? Then we could see if it is indeed unbalanced, or whether it's the same here in D2 as well...

[Kunzaito]

Now, what surprise me is that you find these drop-rates so low. Compared to the single-player mode in D2, finding a specific item without a ridiculous amount of MF from a boss is usually 1/300-1/3000. ... You don't have waypoints or Teleport to speed things up in D1, which complicates a fair comparison, but perhaps you could enlighten me as to how long it would take to (theoretically) farm a Helm of Spirits? Then we could see if it is indeed unbalanced, or whether it's the same here in D2 as well...

Apples to oranges, here. Finding any one particular unique from a D2 boss is harder simply because of the greatly expanded number of things in the drop tables. D1 is a small game, with fewer things that can drop and far fewer uniques overall, plus bosses *must* drop at least a magical item.

*edit - Also, as previously mentioned, the drop tables in D1 are kind of screwed up, so a crappy bow that no one would use is 20x harder to find than one of the most valuable helms in the game, for instance. That is part of the complaint.

You have waypoints, in a sense, with the shortcuts to the caves/cats/hell. Most people play multi-player for that and the added monster challenge. And the levels are smaller - the most common "item run" is normal Lazarus, and to find him it probably takes around 10 minutes, possibly much less if you get lucky with the stairs.

For Helm of Spirits, farming dlvl 2 in NM, you should be able to get there in a minute or two - even the most poorly equipped character can walk through Fallen and skeletons.

[Alash]

So in essence it's not the droprates that pose an issue, as much as the game mechanics behind determining what items drop, and when. As long as the super rare bow is useless though, it's alright though I guess?

With 2 minute runs and a 1/130 drop chance, it really doesn't sound bad. Try to find a high rune in D2, and we're talking about real farming (check the D2 forums, there's a bloke who's logged 17.000 runs, which got him - I think - 3 of these types of runes). Also, isn't there a pattern in the way maps spawn? In D2 most maps have rules to where the entrances and waypoints are located (i.e. from Durance of Hate lvl2 waypoint, one finds lvl3 fastest by hugging the right wall. If it also works in D1, knowledge of this could greatly increase item running speeds and make it more enjoyable.

PS: Bosses in D2 are also guaranteed to drop a magical item or better.

[Kunzaito]

Doubtful that you could consistently do two-minute total time runs. I was referring just to time to find the stairs. Walking speed is slow - you have to walk to the church, find lv. 2, and then find the butcher and/or any other boss monsters that spawn. A sorc with teleport and decent gear probably could do the run very fast, though. A warrior would be comparatively rather slow, maybe taking 5-10 minutes?

There is no pattern in the way the maps spawn in D1, it's *much* more random because the dungeons are confined to a much more rigid indoor structure so it's easier to randomize. The only thing you can know is the general types of rooms staircases can appear in. For example:

- In the church, they very often appear in the big rooms with the four pillars in the middle. You can easily tell when you're approaching one of these.

- In the first cats level, two staircases often appear right next to each other.

- In Hell, the dungeons spawn as four identical quadrants. If you note where your stairs appeared in the initial quadrant, more often than not the corresponding set of stairs will be in the same spot in a different quadrant.


I know that about D2 bosses, but the reason it's so much more valuable in D1 is that there are really only three possible states for items: Normal, Magical, Unique. So if the boss is guaranteed to drop at least a magical item (no gold, potions, scrolls, etc, except for Spellbooks) you are already halfway there. By contrast, in D2 the item can spawn cracked/normal/socketed/superior/ethereal/magic/rare/set/unique and for all of these it can be normal/exceptional/elite. That's a whole lot more randomization inserted!

[Alash]

I know that about D2 bosses, but the reason it's so much more valuable in D1 is that there are really only three possible states for items: Normal, Magical, Unique. So if the boss is guaranteed to drop at least a magical item (no gold, potions, scrolls, etc, except for Spellbooks) you are already halfway there. By contrast, in D2 the item can spawn cracked/normal/socketed/superior/ethereal/magic/rare/set/unique and for all of these it can be normal/exceptional/elite. That's a whole lot more randomization inserted!

I'm not sure I follow you here. We're talking about the problem of uniques dropping too rarely in D1, and the D2 loot table you're talking about indicate if anything that finding a specific item is more difficult - since there are more possible outcomes. The cracked, normal, ethereal, socketed, and rare items are 95% of the time completely useless, so though there are more options, a smaller portion of them are relevant. Both of these things suggests that hunting for a unique item statistically and time-wise is easier in D1 than in D2 - or at least not harder than in D2.

[Clervis]

You're right. Searching for a particular item in DI is much easier than in DII. Even the rarest items in DI can be more common than some of the lesser ones in DII. But DII has a very distinct difference, an economy. With duping and easy hacking, etc., trading in DI is not just difficult, but futile. In DII, you can just mf until you find an item of considerable value, and then trade it for the item you're looking for. Not so in DI.

I should mention that there are quirks in DII that make certain drops unnecessarily rare. For example, Grizzy's set is near impossible to complete on your own, and there are even some lesser crappy sets that are also ultrarare.

I had my sorc doing 2.5 minute Butcher runs. The odds are 1/150, so on average, it would take me 6 hours and 15 minutes to find the helm. Not bad compared to DII, but it would be the only unique of high value provided there was an economy. Every other expensive item would be magical--Obsidian Jewelry of Zodiac, King's Sword of Haste, Awesome Plate of Perfection, etc.

[Alash]

It is true that items can be substituted by others via trading, but for this to work you need to have trust in trading. As things are now, I can't say I have. If it's not duped, then it's scammed, and if it's not scammed, then it's hacked. Because of this I tend to only trade within my community, which to some extend reduce the effect of barter economy.

Thereby not saying it doesn't happen. Through communities like D2jsp people get hold of items that have a drop rate equal to the chance that I'm struck by lightning this very moment - items that, due to lack of a game economy, would never be available to D1 players. Turning that around however, I'd say this makes finding a specific item in D1 proportionally more exciting. Besides, there's something about finding something yourself that just can't be substituted by trading in my opinion, so it's certainly not a black-and-white discussion.

[Clervis]

Besides, there's something about finding something yourself that just can't be substituted by trading in my opinion, so it's certainly not a black-and-white discussion.

I know I felt 10 times more excited about finding the Helm of Sprits than I ever did trading for a great item.

[jimbtx]

I seem to recall that there was a really awesome helmet. But, that it was only obtainable by gambling for it from Wirt. And, it could only be done when your character within a certain character level. I'll have to see if I can find that old guide that had it listed

[MrGoth]

I remember when I found some random unique armor in hell hellfire, it looked like sparkling mail but had blood around the neck of it, like the last owner had lost his head. I overhalled my character, ditched his sword and shield, and stacked this armor it with a messer-reaver and that helm that had massive -light res (cause the armor did too).

It got so dark in the dungeon that a.) no monsters ever came towards me and b.) when i wondered upon a group it was a very scary thing (cause i honestly had maybe 9 squares of light around me, rest black). Really changed the way I played the game!



Oh, reason for posting; no idea why but i never knew that armor existed, it was never posted on any forums or anything or item databases. I have my chars all saved on a hd, i'll go load him and find out its name.

[Lanthanide]

Oh, reason for posting; no idea why but i never knew that armor existed, it was never posted on any forums or anything or item databases. I have my chars all saved on a hd, i'll go load him and find out its name.
Here it is: Armor of Gloom (http://diablo2.diablowiki.net/D1_Unique_Armor#Armor_of_Gloom)

A lot of the Hellfire uniques were really quite unbalanced and silly. I guess that's a bit better than most of D1's uniques, which are underpowered and useless.

[Flux]

I listed the unfindable uniques in D1 and HF in the wiki. Info from jarulf's guide.
http://diablo2.diablowiki.net/Diablo_Uniques#Unfindable_Unique_Items

I didn't work in all of the odds of finding uniques from jarulf's guide since I thought his approach to calculating the odds was too weird. He calculates those by figuring the odds if you killed every single monster and opened every chest/barrel/etc in that many games. 1/120, for instance. I don't know about you guys, but that doesn't tell me anything, since I'll never play in a style where I do full clears of every level. I guess you can extrapolate the relative scarcity of the items from those lists, so perhaps I should put in those figures just for that purpose, but the actual fractional values he listed I found useless. (And even for regular play you need to know a lot about Mlvls to figure your odds, since you'll never find a lot of uniques if you're too high or too low in levels.)

[Lanthanide]

I don't know about you guys, but that doesn't tell me anything, since I'll never play in a style where I do full clears of every level.
I always do full clears, unless the level is too dangerous in which case I might try and skip it (particularly with acid dogs, lava throwers or nasties in Hell), but generally 98% of the time would be a full clear. I don't think you really deserve to feel like you've made progress if you don't. I've also found a few uniques from barrels (and plenty from random monsters), so it's worth it I think.

[Flux]

Jarulf's listed odds were, as I read it, for a full clear of everything in the entire game. So even if you're after say, a dreamflange, the odds he calculated are for clearing out every level 1-16, even though nothing below like, lvl 14 can drop that item anyway. Which seemed a silly way to list it, as well as deceptive, since 80% of the monsters/chests in the game couldn't drop that particular high Ilvl item anyway.

As for clearing everything; I assume you don't create a game with a lvl 40 char and go plow through the church and cats just for kicks? You go to hell and do the hard/rewarding stuff. You can do full clears of the levels you enter, but no one does all the easy/low levels every single time they play. Well, some people might if they're playing SP, I suppose...

[Lanthanide]

Hmm, yes you're right. The way I remembered reading that section is that he gave the dlvl that was most likely to drop it, and the probablity was for the value on that dlvl. But looking at it now, it looks like your interpretation is correct - it's the chance for finding it in any given game, assuming complete clears of the entire game.

I don't think anyone does that, ever (excepting single player), and if you attempted to you'd most likely miss a monster or some barrels anyway. So yes, the stats really are quite useless as they're presented.

[V12V12]

Yes * raising hand*, yes I DO run the cats hoping for goodies, even though I'm only clvl-21 :-p As I've ranted before in recent D1 posts on here... You CANNOT run those upper levels with my char (seemingly) It's all for Sorcs and Bow Rogues that can off screen poach. Melee chars aside from a Tank-Axe Barb = going to get swarmed and owned, or blood-star city! I hope it's just my flawed game play vs this seemingly, hopeless reality...