Does any class come close to palas?

[gmaers]

Just wondering if theres any class that even come close to a hammerdin? They seem to be so obscenely overpowered :p my frind has one with eni hoto and the rest of the kit and when he slaps on his mf kit (around 250% mf) he still has 12 k (!) hammers. When I on my wind druid does the same with the same gear i have like 5-5,5 k tornados wich isnt bad but theres still a chance that one mob will be completely resistant to my attacks (cold and physical) whilst for the paladin nothing stops him. Ive read that theres supposed to be 1 or 2 mobs in the game wich he cant kill but ive never met one on an mf/key/whatever run so they cant play to big of a part. Is there any class/specc out there wich compares to the hammerdin (without infinity and all that extremely high priced stuff out there)?

[Ed from Russia]

IMO, There are several character/builds that are pretty much equal to a Hammerdin:
- Berzerker Barb
- Bone Necro
- Concentrate Barb
- Avenger Paladin
- Kicker Sin
- Guided Arrow Amazon

All these character are equally or even more boring to play than a Hammerdin.

[DECOYBOY]

don't forget the almighty bearsorcs! on average somewhere between 20-25K dual elemental dmg before infinity from merc. i think they can be even MORE powerful than hammerdins, i know i end up killing stuff faster in baalruns than the bot (in an 8 player game). the occasional double fire/light immune isn't such a pain, and you also have teleport as a built in skill, no need to lug around an enigma

[mephiztophelez]

hammerdins are obscenely overpowered.

no, nothing else compares to them in terms of pure cheese.

[MalVeauX]

Heya,

The Hammerdin is completely broken, but honestly, the only reason you see them so rampant is because enigma exists and that item completely broke the game. Nevermind how powerful hammerdins are, which they are. Enigma is what breaks the camel's back. All the glory of the Hammerdin's power would be "too slow" for most people if he couldn't teleport on top of that. Unfortunately, someone over at Bliz decided everyone should have access to teleport as a skill and split the game in two.

Cheers,

[mephiztophelez]

hammerdins don't "need" enigma. a viper-build hammerdin is still a force to be rekoned with in pvp.

[Pitboss_2000]

Plus, you can still kill everything in the CS and WSK in one hit spamming just one skill, and without having to use several multiple-HR Runewords.

Oh, and the fact that max holy shield gives you an insane amount of defense and block rating when compared to other casters also doesn't hurt.

[gmaers]

Bearsorc, i have never heard of it but it sounds like to much fun :D have to go look for a guide ^^
*edit* or maybe i wont, infinity dream and beast is kinda out of my pricerange ;)

[gorash]

i dont think viper build hdins are that great espically in pvp, w/o the teleport, there will be a lot of builds that will be able to beat them much easier.

my javazon can clear chaos just as fast if not faster than my hdin if my merc stays with me long enough.

[mollybloom]

bump - i would love to hear about the bearsorc as well!

[AxlStrife]

i dont think viper build hdins are that great espically in pvp, w/o the teleport, there will be a lot of builds that will be able to beat them much easier...

That's when you have to rely on desynch-charge more than just tele-stomp and hammerfield-spam. Enigma isn't 'needed' if you're a good pvper, but it makes the learning curve much lower.

@OP: As far as cheese, the Lammerdin is the smelly smelliest of them all. I much prefer Windys, but there's no denying 15k hammers' power when you catch one upside yo' head.

[lumpor]

IMO, There are several character/builds that are pretty much equal to a Hammerdin:
- Berzerker Barb
- Bone Necro
- Concentrate Barb
- Avenger Paladin
- Kicker Sin
- Guided Arrow Amazon

All these character are equally or even more boring to play than a Hammerdin.

The kick sin, concentrator, berzerker and avenger aren't cookiecutters. They only attack one enemy at a time, and all of those have to spend at least 8 frames per enemy, while the hammerdin can spam hammers, and then move on with a maxed vigor.

The guided arrow amazon was cookiecutter during the 1.09 patch. Now they plain suck. The guided arrow is as slow as a normal attack, only shoots one arrow and doesn't pierce.

Bone nec is good, but they will have a very hard time reaching 6k spears, and that's still with the fragility of necromancers, compared to the tankyness of the paladin.

The hammerdin kinda owns all. For me, those who could compare are (and this is with godly equipment):

Zealots
Lightning zons
Meteorbs
Summonancers
Maybe a lightning trapper (although they're still one of the weak ones among these)
Maybe a windy (these are also quite weak compared to the others)

If a whirlwind barb got a good weapon enough to one-hit kill, I guess it could make it to the list

Hammerdins are quite superior.


On a completely unrelated note:

Bearsorcs! I know a bit about them. Have you heard of the dual dream sorcs? They use 2 dream runewords to get a level 30 holy shock aura, then use lightning mastery to boost it, then equip a passion runeword for a fast zeal, to deliver the damage.

However, the wild sorcs aren't happy with a 10/7/7/7/7 zeal. If you sacrifice the art of static field and teleport, you are worthy to learn the art of the bear!

With a beast axe on switch, you can switch to werebear form. If you then switch to a 4 shael 1 jewel of fervor phase blade, they can reach a 5 frame attack, which is the fastest speed a sorc can get. In average, counting the 10 frame initial attack on a sorceress zeal, the bearsorc will attack 52% faster.

The build? Skill points:

Must-haves:
20 Lightning mastery
20 Enchant
20 Warmth
1 point fire mastery

Optional additions:
1 teleport (for when you're not fighting)
1 static field (vs bosses if you don't want to use crushing blow)
1 Shiver armor (you can unshift, cast this, then shift back if you want to)

Spare point options:
Fire mastery (enchant damage for immunes)
Energy shield + telekensis (since you've maxed warmth, and you already got offense covered, might try to use es)

Equipment:
Helm: Dream helm
Shield: Dream shield
Weapon: 4 shael 1 jewel of fervor phase blade. For the last socket, you can use an eth, ber, jah, lightning facet, fire facet, whatever
Armor: CoH or something else defensive. If you want to have fun though, a 4 facet armor is great for the -enemy resistance
Amulet: Whatever defensive amulet you want. Maras for example
Belt: Arachs for +skills. Can also try string of ears for reduction, or that set belt with resists
Gloves: Steelrend for the crushing blow. Dracs won't help you much, since your phys damage will be LOOOW.
Boots: Gore riders
Ring 1: Ravenfrost
Ring 2: If using es, a soj might be in order. Otherwise another ravenfrost

Switch: Beast axe + spirit shield

Mercenary:
Holy freeze merc with infinity (or if you have trouble surviving, reapers toll)

You will get crazy lightning damage from the holy shock dealt with a 5-frame attack. Lightning immunes will be broken by infinity and incinerated by enchant.

The reason to why I wouldn't call this cookiecutter is because it's a melee sorceress without leech.

[Uncle_Mike]

hammerdins don't "need" enigma. a viper-build hammerdin is still a force to be rekoned with in pvp.

Perhaps in a lag free environment, with huge hammer dmg and good skills etc. Sure, desynch is good but seriously, this is similar to the BvC hype. Hammerdins get lucky kills in PvP ofc spamming invisible fields of high dmg hammers but if you have no enigma you probably don't have good charms and gear as well.

I agree that hammerdins are kings of bm pubbing but unless they are skilled a simple no-enigma wearing trapsin that stuns them is enough. Sure they can sorb but crap ones without tmc cant' really "sorb" windies etc.

Hammerdins are not that good in most cases. And you can't judge an entire class based on a few top players imo (happens in case of BvCs a lot). I'm not really sure if hammerdins are that much overpowered in gm duels or as a class in general. Contrary to what many think it takes skill to play a hammerdin.

I'm not saying that you don't have a point though :)

edit: same goes for PvM imo, i'd take a high-end light sorc over hdin any day for baalruns for example (if you want to kill baal). I'd use a java for cows. I'd use a barb for goldfinding.

[DECOYBOY]

lumpor pretty much hit the nail on the head. he almost described the exact setup on my bearsorc. using a 5shael phase with 1 os (waiting til i find/trade for enough 15res/15ias jewels...yea right), using a dungos for some DR and a little more vit, and i actually did keep dracs on, cuz the leech isn't as bad as i heard, esp with the insane speed at which i attack. expensive but fun build :thumbsup:

the link to a guide for bearsorcs is here if you're interested:
T&E's -Dreaming in infinity BearSorc (http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=482493)

[Stevomoo]

Perhaps in a lag free environment, with huge hammer dmg and good skills etc. Sure, desynch is good but seriously, this is similar to the BvC hype. Hammerdins get lucky kills in PvP ofc spamming invisible fields of high dmg hammers but if you have no enigma you probably don't have good charms and gear as well.

I agree that hammerdins are kings of bm pubbing but unless they are skilled a simple no-enigma wearing trapsin that stuns them is enough. Sure they can sorb but crap ones without tmc cant' really "sorb" windies etc.

Hammerdins are not that good in most cases. And you can't judge an entire class based on a few top players imo (happens in case of BvCs a lot). I'm not really sure if hammerdins are that much overpowered in gm duels or as a class in general. Contrary to what many think it takes skill to play a hammerdin.

I'm not saying that you don't have a point though :)

edit: same goes for PvM imo, i'd take a high-end light sorc over hdin any day for baalruns for example (if you want to kill baal). I'd use a java for cows. I'd use a barb for goldfinding.

i think uncle mike has got it exactly right. and for my say if 99% of the bots and bm a holes/hackers on bnet wernt hammerdins then it would just be considered another powerful class like the light sorc or javazon

[Cppo-The-Wild]

i consider hammerdin a great character to start with but there are many better (faster) pvm characters when you can afford high end gear. those are basicly the lightning based infi merc ones. Blessed hammer is pretty terrible skill compared to lightning or lightning sentry for example. you have to be pretty close to enemies to hit and it takes a little time until you get the hammers spinning and actually killing stuff while lightning for example hits everything fast.

the only way i enjoy playing a lamerdin is untwinked with spirits etc when you actually have to be careful and use some tactics in order to stay alive and kill fast. the dmg is absurd even when untwinked though.

-Cppo

[altima]

I think that the hammerdin is great pvm character when you have the right equipment. You can do the game alone , kill ubers , you can have lots of mf and still do 10-11k , ax block and res are easy to achieve , due to enigma you can have 55 str points only res in vita. But for pvp they just suck , sure they can 1 hit ko but still they are EZ to kill with lots of characters . I have no problems fooling around with hammerdins with decent eq with my bowie :)

[sequoia]

Perhaps in a lag free environment, with huge hammer dmg and good skills etc. Sure, desynch is good but seriously, this is similar to the BvC hype. Hammerdins get lucky kills in PvP ofc spamming invisible fields of high dmg hammers but if you have no enigma you probably don't have good charms and gear as well.

I agree that hammerdins are kings of bm pubbing but unless they are skilled a simple no-enigma wearing trapsin that stuns them is enough. Sure they can sorb but crap ones without tmc cant' really "sorb" windies etc.

Hammerdins are not that good in most cases. And you can't judge an entire class based on a few top players imo (happens in case of BvCs a lot). I'm not really sure if hammerdins are that much overpowered in gm duels or as a class in general. Contrary to what many think it takes skill to play a hammerdin.
QFT, while Hammerdins are great PvM, they aren't the #1 end-all be-all class for PvP, as they do have a few very tough matchups (Windy being the toughest)


edit: same goes for PvM imo, i'd take a high-end light sorc over hdin any day for baalruns for example (if you want to kill baal). I'd use a java for cows. I'd use a barb for goldfinding.

Agreed, the hammerdin's power comes from it being able to do everything from area clears to boss clears, with or without a merc, in every act.

But if you get specific, a Barb is better at running Trav for gold, a sorc is better at start of ladder, a Javazon/Necro with CE and a decent merc are faaaar better at running cows, and Bowazons/Javazons can really wax through CS/WSK.

If we're getting picky, though, even Smiters fall under the umbrella of Paladins, which only makes this worse for every other class.

[drake]

But if you get specific, a Barb is better at running Trav for gold, a sorc is better at start of ladder, a Javazon/Necro with CE and a decent merc are faaaar better at running cows, and Bowazons/Javazons can really wax through CS/WSK.

If we're getting picky, though, even Smiters fall under the umbrella of Paladins, which only makes this worse for every other class.

my thoughts exactly, hammerdins are a jack of all trades but king of none. plus, i find having a few specialized characters infinitely more fun than having one totally pimped out mr. do-it-all.

i'll add to your list that any decent sorc or dual-wizspike-on-switch barb will run keys better than a lamerdin simply because of the faster tele. for the same reason, they're better at rushing too. and ubers... well 1 point smite can do the trick but theres better out there obviously.

[gmaers]

Well as someone said jack of all trades master of none, well i would say that the hammerdin is the master at bossrunning, When i play i use my barb for gf at travi or my windy for bosses/mf. When my friend plays he does it all, andy, countess, summoner, duriel, travi (actually drops nice items aswell apparently since he got a heavens light there), mephisto diablo, nihlatak and baal in the same game. Guess i could do the same with the windy but it wouldnt be as fast. Just seems unfair that whith the same gear equipped and me haven extras in the form of 6+ skillers filling my entire stash i still dont do the same amount of damage as he does in mf gear :crazyeyes:

[dknomisdk]

without eni sorc would be the only class for mf (exept mb cs)

[Pitboss_2000]

Don't forget the fishymancer. ;)

[gmaers]

Fishymancer, had one of those imo its incredibly slow :p maybe i did something wrong but first you gotta raise the skellies then try to get them to focus some baddies down and bosses seem to take forever if they dont kill you poor skellies first :p

[lumpor]

How can hammerdins have a hard time with windys? Being chilled doesn't affect them since they neither melee nor run, and the hammers will go through the minions, and the hammers ignore cyclone armor.

How can windys beat hammerdins?

And how can hammerdins be good at bossrunning? They reach a 9 frame cast at best.

[Uncle_Mike]

How can hammerdins have a hard time with windys? Being chilled doesn't affect them since they neither melee nor run, and the hammers will go through the minions, and the hammers ignore cyclone armor.
How can windys beat hammerdins?


Easily, minion stack > blessed hammers.

[Zelator]

Easily, minion stack > blessed hammers.

Yep. WHen I was new to dueling I kept using my bear vs em and got raped a lot. WHen I switched to wolves it all became much easier.

[gmaers]

And how can hammerdins be good at bossrunning? They reach a 9 frame cast at best.

Well i have no idea if thats bad but it doesnt take him long to kill any boss except for baal.
Wich class is best for bossrunning then? I was thinking a sorc but they have to many immunes working against them.

[lumpor]

Minion stack? Don't blessed hammers go through enemies?

gmaers, it's usually not the killing time, but the time to get to the boss. Sorcs don't have immunity problems, since they know the immunity of the bosses

[AxlStrife]

Wolves smell out desynch, and the hammerdin can't telestomp a windy and live if they have minion stack. It forces the to play the windy's game and not their own.

[gmaers]

gmaers, it's usually not the killing time, but the time to get to the boss. Sorcs don't have immunity problems, since they know the immunity of the bosses

Well what about diablo and baal? 3 kinds of immunities, is a dual element sorc faster then a hammerdin? I tried a blizzballer sorc and it didnt really work that well when you face the wrong kind of immunes it takes a while to kill em.

[Cppo-The-Wild]

as said before a well geared light sorc for example with infinity merc will clear areas faster than hdin. oh and it kills bosses faster too. imo hammerdin is at it's the best when used in chaos runs. maybe join a baal run and get exp from baal and the last 1 or 2 waves too if you are fast enough. that's when playing twinked but as i already mentioned i'd use lamerdin only for untwinked playing cause that's the only way i enjoy it

-Cppo

[gmaers]

Well sorry to bring up a rather old topic but ive done some testing lately ^^. So after gaining access to my friends hammerdin ive tried my hand at numerous classes. 1st it was my very own windy, he had basically the same gear as the pala the usual enigma, hoto, maras, sojs, spirit etc and he does almost as good as the paladin WITH 8 skillers taking up all inventory space but once elemental shield wears off hes toast.

Secondly i built a poisonmacer trying my best to get as good gear as possible and got around 6,3 - 6,7 k novas with - 130 to enemy resistances with lower resist, hes an awesome area clearer kills cows with just one nova and so on but once he get to bosses its a dead end. Sure they do go down but thats after a minute or 2 of spamming nova and firewall ( trangs set bonus)

Then i dusted of my old assa and placed some items wich i didnt have when first creating her. I ended up with around 10 k traps but no infy and I have to say that she is probably my most fun char so far clears areas fast take care of light immunes with fireblast or kicking them. takes out bosses fast with traps and kicks with some cb gear on.

Third i tried my hands at a real light sorc with infy griffons, you know the rest and my god she is fast i give you that but oh so fragile and in my book that does make her abit slow and atleast for me she didnt do my usual route faster and that is: Cows>andy>meph>chaos>wsk and baal.

Now it may be me being inexperienced with sorces but really come on the pala in near immortal unless you tele right in to the largest pack of cows with amp on you. He has everything in his advantage and its not only enigma i switch my enigma between all my non tele chars and they dont do it as good as the pala. Holy shield, redemption, the resistance aura, smite and hammers that dont have any disadvantages (Ive read of a mob or 2 having it but ive never seen them so they cant be that much of a problem) just makes him a complete char. He can do everything in this game without even breaking a sweat including ubers if swithing his boots gloves and head and slap on a life tap wand.

Well ive come down to 2 choices now it stands between a poisonmancer or my assa leaning towards the assa due to being less squishy than the necro and keeping my ribby druid for ubers.

[DH Amazon]

Then i dusted of my old assa and placed some items wich i didnt have when first creating her. I ended up with around 10 k traps but no infy and I have to say that she is probably my most fun char so far clears areas fast take care of light immunes with fireblast or kicking them. takes out bosses fast with traps and kicks with some cb gear on.

Those are fast and fun.

At end of last ladder I made Kicker-Trapper. Faith merc and Assa with nigma, infy(nice crush blow for bosses) etc...
My fastest chaos cleaner so far and merc was iron maiden proof.
No immune problems and good party char.