View Full Version : Fishymancer questions
Knarlfist
10-09-2008, 09:38
1) Simple one: How come I never see the Edge runeword recommended in conjunction with this build? Racing thru Normal and Nightmare is sickeningly easy enough as is with skellies, but this very cheap runeword just enhances the phys dmg so much more.... which is exactly the whole point of the build in the 1st place. I was just a little shocked that everyone talks about Insight so much, being cheap easy and powerful - and Edge is the melee version IMO.
2) Theory question for any geeky math types: for a strong pack of summons (like Skellies turn out to be with this build), assuming you have either Edge aura running or Thorns from another source up, do mobs die quicker when THEY curse you with Amp Damage? In theory it sounds right, but I just don't know if their added dmg from cursing you gets factored into the dmg returned from Thorns or not.
Mad Mantis
10-09-2008, 13:18
1) Simple one: How come I never see the Edge runeword recommended in conjunction with this build?
Most discussions on builds tend to focus on Hell games. Almost all builds can make it through Norm and NM. In Hell damage return really looses a lot of steam. It adds a nice bit of damage, but not an enormous amount. You'll need to stack the edge with another Thorns giving runeword to get the insane damage return levels that make it worth it. Most Fishymancers will not give up those equipment slots when they can be used for other things.
In theory it sounds right, but I just don't know if their added dmg from cursing you gets factored into the dmg returned from Thorns or not.
I'm not too sure on this subject, but I don't think it does. It was a victim of the way they fixed the IM + BG bug. But I can't say for certain.
Hello, I´m new and I have some doubts concerning the skellymancer:
- Does maxed SM and RS really produce strong enough skeletons to carry through the game in all difficulties?
I´ve been trying this build a bit, and TBH, it works far faster and far more effectively than my former necros. But I´m dreading finding myself stuck in act 3 or 4 hell and having some horrible creature cut through my skellies like they were butter....
So, does SM + RS + CE really work? Can I ignore revives ? (I hate revives)
- Concerning life versus dex:
One of my favorite things about this build is that its relatively mana-cheap. This is specially important in act 5 as you don´t get the blood mana curse. But to what extent should I favor dexterity or life? Nightfish suggests in his guide to keep enough dex to get max block with your shield. I find this attractive, as it also allows you to use ranged weapons with some success, which is good for helping your troops. But I dont know to what extent I might be getting myself at a dead end (when building mage chars I used to make massive investments in mana, and to a lesser extent in life. This is a new experience). Particularily, I´m worried about lacking enough stat points afterwards to be able to wear Tang Oul's (Granted, by that point in the game I´ll likely have moved wholly from ranged weapons to wands, but that still leaves the dex points as a dead end which might have gone into vitality.
- General suggestions for fill up skills
Thank s in advance :D
Knarlfist
10-09-2008, 22:03
I guess I just noticed that this specific build gets talked about constantly..... even down to detailing methods to get through the lower levels - advice like how to spend your points early on to avoid problems, and when to stop feeding your main skills so that you can pump a point in something to defeat a specific Boss (Duriel and Diablo are notable here).
So advice is VERY specific down to the smallest details for levels as early as Act2 Normal, yet no advice on a runeword that is made with newbie runes? It's almost on the order of not mentioning Leaf and Insight/Spirit for Sorcs.
I completely get what you are saying about Hell mode... just got there recently myself. But tbh, even there: this build remains a phy dmg oriented one, and when your pack gets swarmed by fast hitting high phys dmg mobs, I see little reason to not keep Edge on my weapon swap. It's just common sense... if a mob hits hard enough to risk decimating your skellies, then adding Thorns is only gonna help.
Just wish there could be some mention of it in the popular guides, maybe a small edit to get it thrown in for that sometimes long road to hell (if a returning D2 player chooses a Necro for their 1st char, they might have forgotten how to exploit Baal runs for xp, and might kill Normal Baal too soon... leaving them in NM for an extended time where Edge could really shine).
Faust VIII
11-09-2008, 07:07
IMHO, the problem with Edge is that it requires a missle weapon to make (a bow/xbow i suppose), and that requires 2 hands. Therefore on switching, you will lose any +skills that your wand+shield can give, and may lose some skeles (and less powerful curses) as a result. If you really want some "% dmg returned" (which I don't fancy doing much dmg), why not try iron maiden? Not as great as the level 15 thorns aura can give you, but it's obviously a more convenient option.
As for skeles, I would say maxing RS and SM will be enough for you to survive hell, except for gloams and those spear-throwing cats. If you see your skeles dying to stong physical attack mobs, decrepify is the way to go, and attract is a 1-point-wonder crowd control curse.
Blizzatch
11-09-2008, 11:53
Edge is unnecessary, and Thorns sucks now anyway. At a decent level in Hell (Like when most other chars actually start Hell), your skellies will hardly ever die anyway. If one or two does, just make more. As a Fishy, I LOVE "fast hitting high phys dmg mobs". At least they're not ranged, and they don't run away or jump/teleport around. Get a Might merc and prioritize his equipment over yours, that's all you need to do.
Well you got to wear something up until you can wear your end gear. So if it works through most of nightmare, why not?
Why equip a measly +3 raise skeleton wand in act 1 normal when you can just equip a death's web unearthed wand right at the beginning. Oh wait :-p
Faust VIII
11-09-2008, 13:20
In fact, an important thing about fishy is that you can get through most of hell NAKED. So whether you are bringing your Edge with you or not, you can still do well in nm. If you want to be kill fast in nm, I think the +3 raise skele wand will probably do better than edge, as you get more skeles (and stronger ones)
One additional note, AOKL is not going to cost you a fortune. I bought mine for 10 pgems. If you can't afford that, try Carin Shard. That's even more cheaper, and gives you better killing power than Edge does. Bear in mind that you will need TWO hands to carry Edge, so remember the things that a shield can give you when you consider the trade-off.
In fact, an important thing about fishy is that you can get through most of hell NAKED. So whether you are bringing your Edge with you or not, you can still do well in nm. If you want to be kill fast in nm, I think the +3 raise skele wand will probably do better than edge, as you get more skeles (and stronger ones)
Well, that really depends on how high defense and AR your skellies have.
Taking a random monster from a random nightmare act: Cadavers from act 2.
They do an average of 30 damage per hit. With thorns and amp that amounts to 599 damage per hit from those babies.
A lvl 27/27 skeleton does around 250 damage to the cadavers, 486 with amp.
Adding 6+ more to summoning skills (+13 total) by removing edge, they do 796damage with amp. That's an extra 310 damage per skeleton and you get 2 more skeletons (2 hits more per attack wave).
Comparing that to x monsters taking 599 damage per hit, that's x*599 damage extra per attack wave. Slightly in favor of Thorns with enough enemies it seems, though it would really depend on the hit frequency of both the skellies and the monsters and your merc of choice. Frenzytaurs would probably do more damage to themselves than the skellies would ever be able to, even with a might merc, and you could get kinky and get a thorns merc aswell, you could always go back to might when you wanna put on your end gear.
So obviously this isn't a bad idea through nightmare, and the mages would also be able to do some damage for once :D
I'm not saying it absolutely rocks, but it seems quite ok.
And like you say, you could go through the game naked, so why not :)
Oh, and you all remember that one guy who just HAS to leave the group and go get pounded by 5 thorned hulks? He would suddently become quite the pain all by himself instead of just being a helpless ragdol :D
Blizzatch
11-09-2008, 14:08
And like you say, you could go through the game naked, so why not :)
Whatever floats your boat. You can jack up your strength and use Hellslayer if you want to, it's just not optimal. Or even practical. Like Edge. But you can do it if you want.
Pitboss_2000
11-09-2008, 14:09
Just Decrepify any monsters (including bosses) that threaten to give your skellies a serious beatdown. Problem solved!
Whatever floats your boat. You can jack up your strength and use Hellslayer if you want to, it's just not optimal. Or even practical. Like Edge. But you can do it if you want.
Well, i have yet to see the math that says a Edge is so much worse in normal and nightmare than those couple of extra skeletons you would be getting. To me it seems to break even and in some cases the numbers would be in favor of edge. Especially with a large number of monsters with large damage and attack speed.
And Pitboss: With decreep he still wouldn't do any damage. He would with thorns. The 5 monsters beating him would all constantly take damage.
Equip an "edge" bow, "bramble" armor, use the spirit of barbs charge, and cast amplify damage on the enemies
That's a hell-viable thorns
Hmmm, that makes me wonder how much thorns it is possible to stack...
Knarlfist
11-09-2008, 20:01
People keep mentioning things like "just cast Decrep" and "you will lose extra +skills"....
1st off.. will Decrep break Physical Immunes? I haven't tried it, but I assumed at only Physical Resistance -50% it wouldn't.
2nd off... you are assuming alot about a person's build. Obviously a softcore single-player build might use different gear than a hardcore ladder one. So let's use my necro for example: I don't want to MF with him, already have a sorc for that and I needed a char that can walk fearlessly abroad, so I can do full area clears and look for much needed whites/ethereals/socketed/etc. In this case I just grabbed gear like Wizzy, Dwarfstar, Ravenfrost, TGods, high block shield, Guardian Angel. I have no problems losing skellies if I occasionally weapon switch to Edge.
I know many here make it sound lackluster.... but I contend that people should actually try it once. Many PI's hit so proportionally harder than skellies do, that after breaking their PI with Amp Dmg and swapping over to Edge, you can even see visually on their health bars how massive the difference in kill speed is.
But all of this is hardly addressing my initial point anyways. Yes of course you could take a Fishymancer thru to Hell naked. But we don't... and the guides recommend ways to be as strong as you can as you go, even down to strats to speed your progress past Bosses starting as early as Act2 Normal (pretty dang early in your char's career if you ask me). All I asked is why Edge is never even mentioned.... anywhere, ever, even as an aside.
You can be sure a Sorc guide would possibly mention using Leaf, Memory, Insight... and how strong the build is would not be an excuse to NOT mention them. Just seems to be a huge oversight to me... especially when you actually try it for yourself, and laugh the 1st time a fast pack swarms your skellies and instantly kills themselves.
So let me re-iterate what I was stating the main points are:
1) Cheap Runeword, equipable in any old bow at a very young char lvl
2) Will speed up kill speed immensely thru most of Norm and all of NM
3) This is a physical dmg oriented build. There will be times when your enemies will hit disproportionately harder than your skellies (and also times they might be PI, and Decrep might not be an option) It's VERY nice to have the option on switch, leaving the decision making process up to the Necro.
:beer: @ Knarlfist
My thoughts exactly.
little note
decrep breaks PI, just not as effective as amp
I would say that if you have the runes for it, why not
but with a fishy you just run through al of Nm like a breeze anyway
Pitboss_2000
12-09-2008, 11:54
If you feel like switching between your weapons every five seconds: sure, why not. I personally think that Decrepify is so powerful you'd be unwise to ignore it anyway. As far as I can tell, no PI's have more than 100% damage resist, so you will always break them with Decrepify.
factotum
12-09-2008, 16:11
As far as I can tell, no PI's have more than 100% damage resist, so you will always break them with Decrepify.
Don't forget bosses. A Stone Skin boss gets a pretty massive boost to physical resistance, and if they have reasonable PR to start with they're going to end up unbreakably immune.
Tangerinedream
12-09-2008, 18:24
Are fisheys still worthwhile now after the removal of the marrowalk glitch? I mean prior to the removal of the glitch I had a poison nova/bone spear/revive nec that was rockin. However, that was do to the marrow glitch which allowed my spears to still pack a punch even with few hard points into actual synergies.
I have a hard time seeing with 40 points into summons, 1 into each curse or at least up to decreptify that you would have enough to make your bone spells worthwhile. Granted you could with enough plus to skills, but what is the point of the fishy. If it is to mf I would have a hard time seeing it being able to do so speedily and efficiently.
I keep seeing people still using the Fishy but with SM, RS, and CE (some people max this for what reason I have no clue) I can't seeing it being strong enough for it to compete with other single focused builds. Granted this is after the removal of the marrow glitch is the only reason why I am questioning it.
Why not make a pure skelemancer like I am doing. I see it being just a versatile and strong. All the while being able to mf efficiently, and can do well without high end gear. If this was a pure bonemancer, it could easily do things untwinked and only gets better with twinkage ;p. But a hybrid seems difficult to pull off now without the marrow glitch and I wonder if this build is now just a gimped build.
Tang
Tang: Max CE is *extremely* efficient. It can clear an entire screen of monsters in a heartbeat. Very viably build indeed.
Tangerinedream
12-09-2008, 19:14
I still dont see why more than one point into CE is necessary. Also I am not sure whether this makes it an impure skelemancer build but I am having one in CE. I would think like many skills it is an awesome 1 point wonder, while you let your + skills take care of the rest.
Now I see the versatility is one of the major reasons for the builds greatness but really how versatile can you get without the marrow glitch. Basically you are left making an uber golem or pumping them into mages (which will make Nightfish bite your ankles).
Tang
Tang
Well, you are asking about a fishy. A fishy doesn't use bone spear or spirit, so the loss of the marrowwalk bug doesn't really affect the build.
You can, however, do some poison damage, make nice golems, max a curse or two or mages, it all works fine.
My current build is steering toward:
Max SM, RS and CE, along with max Dim Vision and 10 in mages. 1 in all curses and other summons except attract, confuse and fire golem. And it rocks.
Another build:
Max SM, RS, Poison Nova, Poison Dagger and some points in Poison Explosion. 1 in the rest. It kicked hell's *** quite nicely.
If you wanna use bone skills, you need to invest so heavily into them that you basically cannot do a fishy. But then again, that would be a bonemancer. There's no such thing as e.g. a very viable lightning/fire sorc either. Not all permutations are viable, that's why the game can still be a challenge.
alexanderzero
12-09-2008, 19:56
Hello, I´m new and I have some doubts concerning the skellymancer:
- Does maxed SM and RS really produce strong enough skeletons to carry through the game in all difficulties?
I´ve been trying this build a bit, and TBH, it works far faster and far more effectively than my former necros. But I´m dreading finding myself stuck in act 3 or 4 hell and having some horrible creature cut through my skellies like they were butter....
So, does SM + RS + CE really work? Can I ignore revives ? (I hate revives)
There are places like arcane sanctuary and maggot lair which are very hard. In open arenas, however, this build rapes. Believe it or not with a few more plus skills after maxing, skeles are nearly invincible in hell. CE dominates as well, especially when its range is maxed out.
Hahaha, i love that *** is censored but "rape" is not :D
Btw, Poopsi, best way to deal with Arcane Sanctuary and Maggot Lair is to gather money and gamble for a teleport charged amulet or have teleport on switch. If you got that, there's basically no area you won't be able to kick the **** out of.
factotum
13-09-2008, 08:26
I still dont see why more than one point into CE is necessary.
Each extra point increases the range of the explosion. With Slvl 20 CE and all the +skills you're likely to have you can pretty much damage everything on screen with a single explosion. Wait for your skellies to get the first kill, explode it, that damages everything else so the second kill comes that much faster, explode that one...things die fast when you're in a crowded area.
Against a single target with no nearby corpses (Mephisto, say) the build isn't going to kill fast. Do a level 87 area run (such as the Pit) and it shines.
"Against a single target with no nearby corpses (Mephisto, say) the build isn't going to kill fast. Do a level 87 area run (such as the Pit) and it shines."
I wouldn't say that. I only have +7 total to summoning and hell meph dies in ~10-15 seconds with a pair of good revives. That's not particularly bad. Just amp instead of decreep.
Fishymancers don't use bone spells
I agree with the thread starter. It's so dirt cheap, and I don't see why decreptify would replace thorns. They're completely different skills! The thorns isn't to save that skeleton. It's to make the thorned hulks die. Killing speed!!!
I don't see why you shouldn't use edge before hell. I just don't see the point why you shouldn't.
I mean, sure the build can "rape" without it, but it will rape things EVEN HARDER if you have it
darkfear
17-09-2008, 21:35
The only thing I don't get is if your in hell doesn't Edge really serve you no purpose?
I mean because everything is so much less (dmage and things) I would rather have more people doing less damage then few people doing more. Because I am focused on CE
All I need is for one person to die and then it's all over. So I am looking for more people as a buffer between me and the monsters so that they don't kill me lol. When facing a boss that has no minion's I rely much on my might merc. With the might aura all my minions do astounding amounts of damage. I am in act 5 of NM with my current necro. I just tanked Diablo by myself while losing only one of my skelie's.......IMO that not to bad.
Yeah it took me a little while to kill but I don't think (I am not sure) That thorns will help that much on a boss. Not to justify loseing as many skill points as I have.
Thats my opion
~Kyle~
Darkfear, Edge does not do much good in hell, but as many of us have stated it can be viable normal-nightmare lvl gear. You're usually not wearing your end gear till hell anyway.
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