Annoyance with all the Giveaways/SPTF ideas [Archive]

Greebo

31-07-2008, 22:24

EDIT by Thyiad

"I asked the moderators to include this header here. The part of this post below the dashed line is how it was posted originally. My first post was somewhat petty and immature, neither of which I'm proud of. I apologized for it."

From my point of view; some interesting issues did come up in later discussion and people post creative and interesting ideas. In the interest of keeping this discussion on track, let's leave the personal comments out of this.

########
ORIGINAL POST

Dear Retiring Members and otherwise generous donors,

Over the past week or so, there are more and more giveaways. People are retiring, quitting, temporarily quiting, switching to HC. Whatever.

And it's become pretty common to give away for free items, which are pretty expensive, for people just asking for them. And I don't mean something like Neksja giving away a Faith. He asked for ideas on how the bow will be used, and people wrote essays on the subject.

I mean, stuff worth ~80-100 PGems is being given out left and right. I've spent reasonable amount of time doing my 8,500+ Meph (unsuccessful) runs to get my Arachnid Mesh, and if people post ISO: Arach Mesh and get one for free a couple hours later, it makes me feel like a complete moron. It's different if you underprice beginners gear like guilliame's, whistans, or something, and if you underprice an Elite Unique.

I mean no offense, I do hope people in question enjoy their free gear. Write a Mat/Pat threads!

I'm mostly venting, but also would like the people who decided to leave us to think a bit about others, who paid 120 PGems on auctions for items they are giving out for free, etc.

Here's an idea: Make a fun tournament with amazing prizes! I'll take care of the organizational stuff for you, if you can't be bothered.

Or donate your items as prizes for next MFO, so that people take them from your stashes instead of each other. I think this way you'd help the community better. Just my $0.02.

--Greebo

neumein

31-07-2008, 22:33

I get your drift, and in part, I agree.

However, having taken part in more than a couple giveaways, and hosted a couple myself, I see it as such. I've earned the item, I've had my fun with it, now it's your turn. I'm pretty sure I speak for others too, when I say that seeing others go ecstatic about receiving that pair of Gore Riders, or being eternally thankful for donating my nth Ravenfrost. It makes me happy knowing that something I would normally throw out, can really brighten someones D2-day.

Greebo

31-07-2008, 22:44

Yes, I get that. What I'm saying is that perhaps the really rare items could be treated with a bit more caution. I mean we are an economy, those of us in the Trade Pool. It's a strange kind of economy, but it's economy nevertheless.

Charity is nice, but to an extend. There are examples out there that if people were given enough free stuff, they stopped working, countries went into recessions. I don't want to mention examples, since it's politically sensitive topic.

I get that giving is fun. If I MP with some beginning players, I like to give them better weapons and such. I enjoy doing that. It's all good.

I'm just slightly put out by how expensive items are given away. And mainly, I wanted to make these two suggestions as alternatives to giveaways:
(1) Tournament prizes
(2) Future MFO prizes

Again, my main concern is about expensive items. Something people trade for runes and/or items usually traded/auctioned for 100 PGems+. It will have effect on economy, same way as printing money does. And not a good effect either.

Having said that all, I do hope all you charitable people do get the joy of seeing your stuff getting used by someone else!

--Greebo

Thirty-Thirty

31-07-2008, 22:48

I understand your position, but maybe you're taking D2 too seriously. I mean, I don't so much run because I need items. I could just whip out my old stashes. I run because I actually enjoy it.

That said, I agree that we should try to keep things sensible by having to earn items in some way. I've been the recipient of giveaways in the past, but they were normally quite limited (and once totally unexpected). For example, I remember a giveaway where each player could only ask for one particular item beyond TC78.

Grisu

31-07-2008, 23:05

I see where you're coming from - that's why I play self-found. I like the thrill of actually finding items, not so much of using them. It's all about the chase, you know ;)

Anyways, I do enjoy giving away items who prefer another playing style - namely making the builds they always wanted to make, optimizing it etc. I delight in other people being over the moon about an item they wanted very badly and finally received, really :)

So I think it's a matter of playing style - if it's more about the finding, then play self-found, if it's more about the earning, then do only trade but not participate in give-aways. And if it's about making the perfect/thought after character build, then enjoy those free items :) Just my 0.02$.

Serdash

31-07-2008, 23:06

I got a Ber rune for free once. It helped me make infinity.

I got a bunch of Gul runes for free once. It helped me make Fortitude.

I got a Vex rune for free once, it helped me make my BotD.

I got a couple of Gul runes and an Ist rune once, it helped me make HotO.

I got a few Vex and Ist runes for free once, it helped me make CtA.

I got a Grief for free.

Someone gave me a free Windforce one time.

At one point I got 8 Offensive Aura skillers for free to use on my Tesladin. As well as a somewhat gg Griffon's Eye.

Someone gave me a bunch of Trap and Warcry charms at one point too. I also got a 35 life poison and bone skiller for free.

What do I do for any of this? Nothing. People were generous enough to give it away to me to help me along with builds I wanted to make.

What do I do in return? 99% of the time when someone asks me if I have something and they need it, and I have it spare, I toss it over to them. I give back to the community that helped give to me. There's no reason that a giveaway should be looked down upon. I don't get how "hundreds of pgems" worth of stuff is being given away, since I don't ever remember the SPF having a defined currency or price on anything. That was supposed to be one of the big glory parts about the SPF. We stick together in a tight knit community, and the trading is actually based around what people want and need instead of some arbitrary currency rate.

Cry moar plz. (Yes, that's a flame.)

Greebo

31-07-2008, 23:09

Fair enough. Point taken. (I mean the one about me taking things too seriously).

*Bursts into flames.*

(See what you did, Serdash?)

Dark Matter

31-07-2008, 23:10

*gets cap and slippers*

I remember when there was a weekly giveaway (http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/search.php?searchid=1125419) and only really rare items were traded.

Low Key

31-07-2008, 23:18

Concerning expensive items...

You could also argue that certain items are so expensive and sought at, that they do not function like normal items in the economy and can really only be moved by either extraordinarily huge trades, or by giveaways. In most cases these kind of items are very high runes (say Sur+) or runewords using them. You simply wont trade away, say a Faith bow, which was given away by a memeber recently. Thus they Faith bow doesnt effectively even touch the normal rules of our economy, or even directly affect it. Effectively as the economy is concerned, these items do not exist and giving them away doesnt distrupt it in any way. All this is of course pretty theoretical and stuff like LK and HF rushing change this.

But then there is the less rare, less expensive range of very valuable items that behaves in a very similar way. Good TC87 items, rare ethreal uniques, perfect items, godly rares, good vita skillers and their ilk. Generally the NTPP-resticted stuff. Items that you can normally both run for or trade for. These kind of items are the top tier of the economy and you do see them moving more. Thus you also see them given away at some regularity, usually when somebody quits. Still, even this wont really affect the economy in any noticable way. There simply wont be enough of a supply of these items to reduce the value, and there will always be a demand for them as the player base evolves. The occasional giveaway of an Azruwrath wont ruin their value, for example.

But I do see a small problem with the 1-100 pgem range of items, from the viewpoint of NTPP traders. Although it is very easy to get items from trades, it can be very difficult to sell any items if you are dealing on the pgem level. Due to the reluctancy of established traders of accepting any large payments from NTPP traders in fear of "taint", common normal, exceptional and low end elite items are often "sold" to the new users at the price of a pgem. This is all fine and good if you're a buyer, but if you're trying to sell a good, 20 pgem item, you face competition from tens of sellers that have a large enough stock to give them away for essentially free. Selling any low end uniques or sets is nearly impossible, because one half of the pool doesnt want them and the other receives them for free. But even this is more of a annoyance than a real issue.

tl;dr - The currency being entirely based on randomization and perceived value and trust between the seller/buyer makes for all sorts of wierd interactions happen. The system in place is never in any real risk, unless either of the two factors is seriously unbalanced. (Mass duping, globally forced values for items, etc)

Greebo

31-07-2008, 23:26

You make interesting points, from economical point of view.

I suppose I treated the trade thread too seriously, which mas a mistake. It's all about a community. It's like we live in a village and everybody has something to sell and give away. There is no currency.

I sure learned to admit it if I did something stupid in my life, and the first two posts in this forum are examples of stupid behavior. I apologize for it.

On the other hand I'm grateful, because people's posts in this thread helped me see the whole trading system in a new light, and I think I like it better that way.

No more need for flaming, lesson learned ;).

Valuable discussion on the topic of economy and community and trading and giving away is welcome of course.

--Greebo

scottee

31-07-2008, 23:30

As a common recipient of giveaways (read: pretty poor still), I am all for them ;) Seriously, I agree with Low Key. Though I wasn't here back in the good ol' days, the sense of community is what drew me to register and be active on these boards. I try to support the tradition of generosity I've seen here, with my limited means.

In the last month or so, I've received a Fortitude armor and a Griffon's Eye in giveaways (other things too, but these were the ones that made me shout out loud :) ). Since then, I've been building characters around those items, and playing characters that I probably otherwise wouldn't have.

I don't begrudge the pgems I spent on my arachnid mesh, even if others are receiving one for free. I think it's cool that someone now doesn't have to run Meph 2k times if they don't want to (or however many times it turns out to be ;) ).

Smips

31-07-2008, 23:34

I think the important thing to keep in mind is if you're given an item, you too should give it away when you're done. I'm going to take a stab and say that RibGriller giving me the Arach Mesh is what sparked this, since you referenced it. I certainly had no expectations to get one for free, but it would be stupid to refuse someone's generosity. And, as I said before, I plan on giving it away if I find one myself. As long as people don't abuse giveaways in order to get more profit, it shouldn't cause problems; economically or otherwise.

Eric Xanthu

31-07-2008, 23:34

A second, different perspective, just for conversation:

I passed up an Azurewrath in an MP game once so my brother could have it. He doesn't play D2 anymore. I have never seen one before or since, and I have probably 30-35 lightsabers. Do I feel a kick in the sensitives when someone finds one/trades one/gives one away? Yes.

Think of jjscud, who found iirc 23 Horizons before the good one dropped. Think he felt the same way for years? Ask him how he feels now.

If you like finding the items, the day you finally get that Arachnid Mesh will rank as one of the top days of your D2 playing. Then you'll find two or three more and you'll wonder why you ever worried so much about it. Or you'll move on to D3. Either way, you'll have your day in the sun.

Greebo

31-07-2008, 23:39

@Smips: please do not take this personally. It definitely was not directed at you, at all. And besides, I was wrong and I do admit it.

@Eric Xanthu: Yes, I imagine the day it finally drops, I'll be pretty high from it. I cannot begin to imagine finding 23 Horizon's before a Stormlash drops. That's just awful.

nepeta

31-07-2008, 23:45

Just to add lameness to superfluity: play self found. Good items only take the challenge out of the game, if you know some builds, they are easy without good items, items will come, more will come, and boredom arrives. I restarted about 5x because of this, last time I gave it all away, enjoyed being rid of it.

Smips

31-07-2008, 23:48

@Smips: please do not take this personally. It definitely was not directed at you, at all. And besides, I was wrong and I do admit it.

Alright, no offense taken. I just found it odd that I had an Arach given to me today and then this thread popped up :crazyeyes:

Xdeathfire

31-07-2008, 23:52

Well, from my perspective, even most of the old timers here probably received a few items from when they first started or needed a particularly hard to find item for a build for free. By hosting giveaways when they retire, they're simply recontributing what they had received before.

I know that if I decide to more or less permanently retire from D2, I will feel obliged to give away some items that were given to me and some others just to give back to the community.

Thyiad

31-07-2008, 23:54

Actually Greebo, don't apologize for making this thread; it's something poops and I have been talking about recently. Well the Trade Forum in general.

The perspective I'd like to put out there for discussion is the polarization of the trade pool.

At one end we have people trading for what many old timers consider giveaway fodder - twitch, duriels etc - and being given it via the old 1pgm trick. I've spent a fair amount of my time in the Giveaway thread (as it was) and I am still grateful to those who gave.

The current no giveaway in 24 hours rule is there to try and ensure that less wealthy traders have something and someone to trade to trade with. Unfortunately that's often circumvented by "for 1pgem" (and I do it too). And I think what Greebo is noting is the increase in the value of the items given in this manner.

At the other end we have the non-NTPP stuff going for high end runes.

My *personal* (de-green) concern is that the trade pool will become a giveaway or HR pool with nothing in between.

I don't have an (green) answer and as I said, poop and I are talking about it. We'd be delighted to get the input of traders and any constructive suggestions are welcome.

I do take serdys point that what goes around comes around, BUT when top items like Lo's and Bers (I got one giebed) are given, it's usually to well known people who have been around a while. What I'd also hate to see is what happened recently which was "Oh I signed up only for the giveaways". You don't get much of a community like that.

Finally, I take the point about many giveaways being bnet grabs and that's a shame but there isn't a real answer to that. Interestingly, on one giveaway I did, I actually checked the history of those asking for items and many of the requests came from people who had already traded for the same item on this forum.

Constructive comments on the trade forum - NOT trade tags, they're staying - welcome. :)

Thirty-Thirty

31-07-2008, 23:54

If it helps mitigate any feelings of hard-done-by-ness, then I'd like to point out another thing we probably share in the SPF: seeing other people's projects. There are many players here who'd rather make a two-handed titan beserker than a cheesadin, and some of the fluid item wealth is what makes some of those nutty projects possible.

I don't have an Infinity, I don't plan to trade for any of the runes, nor do I think I'd end up doing endless Baal runs if I did land one. But I thoroughly enjoy Denton's 2:15 Baal runs, and the Cindy/Mindy/??? combo that popped up a little while ago.

As for the subject of giveaways and trading, I have a feeling the two pools are generally a bit separate. The reason is that I think some traders see it as a sort of black box for turning what they've found into what they want. In other words, I think there are traders who prefer having to pay, if that makes sense. I haven't yet returned to trading (and don't see myself doing so before I finish my 2k Meph runs), so I'm a bit out of the loop there.

Whoa, a whole whack of replies while I was writing! I agree with Thyiad above, at least in that the strong community spirit seems to keep things relatively well-balanced. I mean, the people passing around Bers and things are frequently prominent members of the community. It is a relatively tight-knit community of sensible folk. We welcome newbies and kick their shins, but we don't giveaway Griffon's Eyes to exploiters. Do we?

Dodgydave

31-07-2008, 23:56

Low Key

01-08-2008, 00:14

How about a giveaway thread that is entirely separate from the regular trading, in the sense that it doesnt count to your 15 trades needed to get out of NTPP? Have the thread work as a request based system, where you ask for items and hope some good soul helps you. As an addedd benefit, it would also effectively exclude out the free item moochers from the normal trade system and disallow them from getting easy "trades" from effectively zero effort. I abhor the thought of a trader that got out of NTPP by trading for 15 "1pgem" items.

Nowhere near a perfect system, but it's a start.

Thirty-Thirty

01-08-2008, 00:17

Eh? That's a good point. I remember the Giveaway Thread too, but sort of forgot that it isn't still here. Probably why I remember the trading pool being somewhat separate...

Zefru

01-08-2008, 00:18

I can certainly see your point Greebo and understand where you're coming from. I've certainly been the benefactor of a couple of the larger Giveaways going on currently. I've gotten some nice items that I never thought I'd get.

But for me it's actually helped pull me further into the community. I look at the people quitting and hope that eventually I'll be one of the people who are adding items to the community both for trade and to giveaway when someone needs it. I don't know how you can prevent people from doing a grab and run but also realize that not everyone is going to do that and it will definitely help some people stick around longer.

The point of devaluing high level items is definitely an issue and one that should be discussed. I'm not a fan of more rules and limits but maybe this is the case where there should be one.

Z

Kedali

01-08-2008, 00:25

As a quick note, it is a flawed analogy to say giving items away is like printing money. In the case of printing money, more currency is being injected into the economy whereas with giving items away, the currency is already there, it is just going to other people. Duping items would be like printing money, but luckily that isn't the problem here.

For the actual problem, I don't see a problem. I've always played 99% self found because I wanted what I had to be mine; it doesn't matter if someone else got an item more easily than I did. Someone is still working for those items, just not the person receiving them.

As for giveaways hurting the trade pool, well, I'm not sure the SPF actually has any right to change that. If the amount of mid level trading is getting slim, then it is because there aren't many people who value it and most people would rather be given/give away items. If there are few who value it, what reason or authority would the SPF have to punish the many to benefit those few?

I think this is a case where some people will find themselves being hurt and where many people will start wishing for the old days, but a calm examination will show that the old days don't exist because people didn't want them anymore. I believe that Thyiad is right when he says the trade pool is going to be either free/near free or high end. This is really a natural evolution as over time the SPF is becoming very wealthy, which is why a situation similar to bnet is occuring (except that most people on bnet wouldn't give a few gold to their mothers :p). However, I don't see this as such a bad thing.

Thyiad

01-08-2008, 00:25

Can I say categorically, we will not have a giveaway thread. It was too complex when we had one and was a NIGHTMARE to track. Nor will we ever move to a "begging" system. The giveaway thread didn't work on that basis. "I have these items" "Oh, I'd like that, please". Not "oi gieb skullers".

Low Key

01-08-2008, 00:28

The point of devaluing high level items is definitely an issue and one that should be discussed. I'm not a fan of more rules and limits but maybe this is the case where there should be one.

Z

I mentioned a little about this above, but for the most part I dont see any immediate problem with devaluation in this system. Unless either the randomization of the trading objects is compromised, or the percieved values radically both change and turn static, there is no issue with the current system.

One could however argue that Lower Kurast chests and Hellforge rushing are destabilizing the economy, as both are driving the amount of runes available ever higher and thus prices lower. The effect of this is however somewhat lessened by the NTPP system restricting high rune trade to a select populace.

Can I say categorically, we will not have a giveaway thread. It was too complex when we had one and was a NIGHTMARE to track. Nor will we ever move to a "begging" system. The giveaway thread didn't work on that basis. "I have these items" "Oh, I'd like that, please". Not "oi gieb skullers".

Mind that my previous comment is coming from a viewpoint that has never seen the weekly giveaway thread. They were long gone before I started posting here, so I have no experience of them. Still, I'd debate the easiest way to solve the 1pgem problem would be somehow separate free item trade from normal item trade in some manner. What problems are involved with that, are another matter.

scottee

01-08-2008, 00:34

Edit: nevermind, gotta learn not to take 30 mins to type a response- the level of pwnage I get thereby is overwhelming :)

Low Key

01-08-2008, 00:40

Disencouraging people from doing the 1pgem deal would do alot I'd think, but there is also the factor of the "sellers" being careful about possible malicious traders. Some delete the 1pgem after the trade is done, in fear of taint. I got my hands burned by one case some time ago, and it certainly has made me alot more careful about accepting even pgems from newer traders.

But disencouraging NTPP traders from trading with FTS people and vice versa would be more harmful to the tradepool than the 1pgem deal is, imo. And effectively disallowing the 1pgem deal will further the gap between traders.

sirpoopsalot

01-08-2008, 01:02

I would just like to say I understand Greebo's frustration.

When I started out here and was a trader (long before NTPP and RWM and RRM and all the other funny letters came along!) I found it incredibly frustrating when more senior traders came along and offered items for free in the trade thread (as it was one single thread then and not a whole forum for those who remember.)

As a beginner I worked my butt off to find some exceptional and low unique items and when I had finally built up multiples of some. It was incredibly hard to take when you worked out some trade to move your String of Ears for some other item you wanted only for someone else to come along and offer one for free.

Now I understand the great community spirit we have here and are amazed some people are willing to hand over extremely rare self found items - and I commend that.

However, sometimes you have to think how that effects both sides involved when a trade thread is put up.

Sure you help out the person asking for an item, but you are crippling anyone else who has needs that could have been fulfilled in a trade. Yeah, the other party could get their items from a giveaway but some people don't like to accept freebies or even cheapies.

I remember there always used to be a giveaway thread. (Does it still exist?)

Would it be a good idea to bring this back?

That way if you want items for free you can check the thread and people can post giveaways in it rather than offering in trade threads.

I don't want to go against the caring-sharing SP spirit and all that crap but there is usually more than one person affected if there is something offered for free in a trade thread.

*speaking mostly as a trader, only a little as a moderator*

I think Dodgydave's got some good points in here, and I believe that's why the 'no-giveaways-in-a-trade-thread-for-24-hours' rule was implemented... to give "real" traders a chance to get in a trade offer before someone comes along to offer something for free.

But, to get around the inconvenience of the 24 hour rule, some folks have been offering the item for a single PGem (when it's actual value is higher than that). I can't really blame folks for doing this, after all generousity is an SPF tradition (one that we'd like to keep), and the 24-hour rule can be somewhat inconvenient.

But, if you're somewhat new and looking for a String of Ears, and someone's offering that for one of your spare Guillaume's Faces, it can be frustrating to have your offer superseded by someone who doesn't care about the SoE or Guillaume's, or "piddly" little items you have... meaning you're still stuck without your desired SoE even though the other guy got his Guillaume's...

So, as Thy said, we'd like to have some constructive suggestions on how to improve this. We really like and appreciate the generousity of the SPF and want to keep it that way. But an honest trade benefits two people, where a "giveaway" only really benefits one. So, trades should be given a "priority", in my opinion, because more people benefit.

It would be nice if people assented to this thought, but that's my opinion as a trader, and other traders opinions are just as valid. As I mod I don't really want to be whacking someone simply because they're trying to be generous. That sucks for all of us. But how do we enforce this, or make it a rule?

As a suggestion to the generous folks that do offer items for below-value but end up superseding another trade offer, here's an idea/suggestion: if you're "rich" enough to give one person an item, you should also offer the other trader his desired item for "free" too.

So if Bob want's a SoE, Ted offers it for a Guillaume's. If Sheila wants to "give" them both their desired item, that's fine. But if Sheila only has a spare SoE, and not the Guillaume's, she should stay out of it.

*****
*And putting my moderator's hat back on.*

Thyiad is right. The single giveaway thread was a complete nightmare to track, keep straight, and moderate. Ditto for "pass-the-stash" giveaways. We're not doing it again, because Thyiad & I aren't spending (literally) hours every week chasing down people that made mistakes (and the case history on this is that people WILL make mistakes. Repeatedly and often.).

If you want to do a giveaway, you have to organize and operate it separately from other members. Sorry, that's not going to change.

NagisaFurukawa

01-08-2008, 01:04

The gap between traders isn't really between FTS and NTPP, but rather between known and unknown. A quick look through the trader profiles page will show that many of our well known and established members are indeed NTPP, while relative unknowns have already reached FTS. Traders most likely (and hopefully) look into things such as activity and history (and not just the label of NTPP or FTS) when it comes to deciding whether or not they are willing to trade with someone. In that sense, it's not all that important to limit deals involving the infamous token pgem.

Having said that, there doesn't seem to be a solution to the problem(s) brought up by Greebo and Thyiad that is both user and mod friendly. Perhaps we should just have givers stick to their own threads? Another alternative would be to set the minimum buying/selling values of items (only within the first day) to either... 1) some arbitrary number (not very practical) or 2) a number taken from bassen's PC-FAQs. #2 is hardly moderator (or user, for that matter) friendly, but I just felt like throwing it out there.

While we're on the subject of the SPTF... lets get rid of trade tags! *hides* Just kidding.

EDIT: How'd I get pwned by such a fat wall of text!? Darn you poops. Maybe we could just have a system where "richer" members stay away entirely from the threads of "poorer" members until the thread seems to be attracting no other takers? 100% arbitrary and a huge pain to moderate though.

o1d_dude

01-08-2008, 01:19

Vang

01-08-2008, 01:31

After reading this thread, I see it both ways.

From one standpoint, I gave away everything I got a year or so ago. I can not tell you how many people said thank you for an item. It was good day for me, because I made someone else happy.

Now, I'm playing semi-regularly back into softcore and doing some builds. With giveaways, I've been able to get a few items that I need for basic buildings(ravenfrost for example)

From the trader standpoint I see two things. First, it sucks when your looking for something and someone else just gives it away it without hesitation. And secondly, runes seem to be taking over. I have few above amn. I understand why they are traded, but really there is a middleground that needs to be reached to help the returning or new players(I know the whole trust thing on that, as many of us have been burned to some degree) Pgems seems to be it, but what is something worth, as there isn't 300000 people to trade with 24/7.

In the end, it really doesn't matter. You build friendships here and if someone quits or is holding a giveaway, your going to be more likely to get it from a friend that you've made. If its an item you want, well you have two choices if you don't get it from them, either go trade for it from someone else or MagicFind until you find it.

xALT

01-08-2008, 01:52

Personally, I'm against the pgem trick. I think that limiting the free offers for 24 hours should also include "1 pgem" trades. Also, 24 hours seems too low for me, it should be, at least 48, to give traders time to trade for their items.
I've seen many trade threads where the first offer would be a pgem for the item in question, and there, I think lies the problem.
Traders might be a bit discouraged that by the time they found the right trade, someone pops up and offers the same item for a pgem.
I think that (rich? :scratchchin:) people should stay away from trades like that.
Instead, why not make a somewhat big giveaway stash, and give away that to someone? A newcomer, for example? Or some returnee that has no items left? or someone who probably needs it? It might be someone you met in an MP game, or someone who made you laugh with some funny thread...
I was given away a lot of things, by the way. I'm not trying to discourage the giveaways (seems like it's an impossible job around here) but it'll be good if we can reach a point which is both mod/trader friendly. Either rich or poor trader.

Tormal

01-08-2008, 02:07

Interesting thread. Let me give it another perspective. I've been playing for a few months now, but have only recently started trading and occasionally posting on the forums. I've run Meph several thousand times now for sure :) and so have collected a fairly complete stash of items (a bit over 70%). I've used the trade forum three times, one a high value (for NTPP) of perf Vipermagi for HoZ and eth CV Insight. The other two were items which I didn't need either way, giving away something I had and wasn't using for something I didn't have and only might someday use. I've also been the happy recipient of a Skullders from Wanchu's giveaway. My thoughts on trading atm:

It seems like the economy is extremely segragated, between those who have been here for a while and those who are just coming in. To the oldies, items which would be very handy to someone just starting out, are worthless. You've got 10 of them in your stashes, and don't bother picking them up anymore. Why not give them away? Even I have 4 extra Vipermagi's - something which would be extremely useful for a new player.

And the items that actually have value to old members outside of high end runewords and tc 87 uniques (skillers for example) are all NTPP restricted. That means that in order to get out of NTPP, one has to either engage in 1pgem giveaways or trade items that one doesn't really care about with other lowbies.

What's to be done about it? What seems to me the best plan would be to remove low end items from the trading pool. Remove the giveaway restriction, so that NTPP removal isn't met by a bunch of 1 pgem trades.

Then all the trades that are conducted will actually be of value to both parties. If one has reached FTS, traders will be assured that he's actually engaged in some valuable trades, and been an asset to the community, rather than just leeching stuff for a few pgems.

Essentially it would take what is today two level system, NTPP-Giveaway and FTS, and move it into a three level system Giveaway, NTPP, and FTS, with actual value to traders on all three levels.

Of course, it would probably require a few rule changes - lowering number of trades for NTPP removal (fewer more valuable trades), increasing the strata available to NTPP (include Tc84 perphaps?) or some other changes. IDK... A few random thoughts. Read at your own risk :P

Smips

01-08-2008, 02:19

Based off what I've read of pages 3 and 4 of this thread(I didn't read everything; I'm too lazy), it seems that some rule needs to be put into place regarding 1pgem trades. If necessary, maybe they can even be outlawed(unless the item is only worth one pgem of course)? There's no reason to not get what the item is worth, even if you do have 50 of them. Giveaways are giveaways and I don't think their's anything wrong with them. However, getting something for 1pgem and getting feedback towards your FTS is kind of unfair. Personally, I'd say get the Price Check FAQ done(if it isn't already) and use that as a basis for what items 1pgem trades are allowed. Just my two cents, maybe it's all hogwash :crazyeyes:

Xdeathfire

01-08-2008, 02:25

I've found the issues being brought up regarding the current SPTF economic state quite valid.

I was just helping out bassen finish up some of the holes in his PC page when I realized how different some of the actual prices listed in the guide is compared to what the items would realistically be traded for atm. It isn't that the guide is PCing most items too expensive, I find that they're quite reasonable, but that the economy is too undervalued atm.

On the other hand, I have found that mostly only the unique/set items have had this problem compared to other items such as charms or jewels. For them, even NTPP ones are still sought after quite often, even by "rich" people and can still fetch a relatively good price. No one really has all the charms or jewels that he/she will ever need so their price hasn't been devaluabled terrible as the normal/exceptional and even the more common elite uniques.

But an honest trade benefits two people, where a "giveaway" only really benefits one. So, trades should be given a "priority", in my opinion

That, I believe is probably the most important point to be realized here.

I would second the idea of having the "rich" traders refrain from offering items at a low price until after quite a significant time as passed such that the person making the ISO generally tapped out on the potential traders wanting a good deal for it. I don't think there should be a necessary set of limits for what the low price should be since the "rich" traders should be experienced enough to know what is a fair deal.

As for the PC FAQ, while it is technically "done," I think there needs to be alot of the prices that need to be fine tuned and evaluated by more of the traders rather than those who contribute. I, personally, have found it quite difficult to price some of the items there and am positive that some are too high or too low. I'm not saying that it is bad right now, but that it probably needs more work before any minimum offer system can be put based upon it

scottee

01-08-2008, 03:12

Actually, I'd really like to thank you for starting this thread, Greebo. The responses that we've seen so far have convinced me to knock it off with the "token pgem" dodge. I'll continue to run my giveaway, but that'll be the only way I give things away from now on.

Swiller

01-08-2008, 03:20

I would second the idea of having the "rich" traders refrain from offering items at a low price until after quite a significant time as passed...

That's a good thought, but there are some flaws.

For one thing, in order to implement a rule like this, Thyiad and Sir Poops would have to define the term "rich". And that would be extremely difficult, if not downright impossible. I mean, how would you quantify wealth? Based on how many high runes a person has? How close they are to grail completion? Both? Neither? Couple that ambiguity with the fact that the definition of "rich" varies from player to player, and you have a near-impossible scenario.

Secondly, it would impose a rule upon the so-called "rich" players but not applying the same rule to the "less-than-rich". I'm just one person, but I don't think that's right. I call for equality! If there's a rule, I say we must all abide by it.

o1d_dude

01-08-2008, 03:42

I was given an Exile Sacred Rondache and a Call To Arms Ettin Axe for my Pally by some chums leaving D2. I also have two Windforces that I was given. Free. Nothing in return.

And yet...I'm well over 11K Pindle runs looking for the self-found "Pindy Windy" and who knows how many LK runs looking for high level runes to make runeword armors and weapons.

Don't hate because someone chooses to give away something they've found instead of just deleting all the stashes when they leave D2 behind. They found those items and they can do with them as they please. If this bothers you, good luck with finding your perfect world. :scratchchin:

It's all just a collection of ones and zeroes, anyway, so don't stress.

Perhaps my perspective on this issue is skewed by the fact that I operated the SP Trade Network tradeserver for over two years. It occurs to me that this was long before a lot of you started playing D2. The SPTN was an organization of about 100 players who played a LOT of D2 and were interested in completing their grail and we traded a LOT, too.

It really isn't a question of "rich" vs "poor" players. It's about being willing to invest the time to do all those runs, play all those MP games, herd all those cows, and sort through all the item spam on the ground. It's NOT about "I've played this stoopid game for half an hour and I still haven't found MY Harley yet."

Who needs a real life anyway?

Nightfish

01-08-2008, 04:58

Uhm yea... Sorry, but if you can't bear someone getting an item for free that you are spending a lot of time running for you probably have a small problem with your ego...

Seriously, what's the deal? So what if someone has a windforce or not? I've never gotten one in all the years I am playing D2 but I could really care less if anyone gives one away. It's his stuff and if he wants to give it away, that's his call. And if he doesn't choose to give it to you are just going to have to live with that... srsly...

Those arguments against giveaways kinda sound like "I don't have one, so you shouldn't have one either!". Very mature... The "Hey, don't give that away, I wanted to sell that item to this guy!" isn't that much better either... Guess this place has changed more than I noticed... Kinda sad.

silospen

01-08-2008, 05:06

My *personal* (de-green) concern is that the trade pool will become a giveaway or HR pool with nothing in between.

Giveaways have been going on for a long long time. This entire community was founded on the idea of generosity and helping out other players, so as it hasn't happened so far I doubt it'll happen anytime soon :)

As for "making the community better" with the whole stashes thing, you'll find that the people who need help aren't the people who are winning/taking part in MFOs.

Asmodeous

01-08-2008, 05:27

Time I put my comments in given that Thyaid is looking for suggestions and I'm one of those un named offenders here, one of the old traders the OP isn't too happy about obviously. Well, the OP does have good reason.

It is very hard for a player like myself to actually trade here. When it comes to uniques/green items the items I want just are not traded. Nobody trades Tyreal armors or Dwebs. And if they do it will only be for one of the other Unobtainable toys, Mangs, Asterons, etc.

So how can I trade for example, 3-4 spare arachnid belts away to 3-4 different people who wants them and expect to receive something I actually want in return?

My solution has been one of two ways.

1). Trade the item for a token price. Yes the handful of Pgems thing. Because a handful of pgems are of use to me and are more useful than a mule full of spare arachnid mesh belts. I think from memory, one of my previous trade threads, I traded away 2-3 arachnid mesh belts for 15 or so pgems each or something like that.
2). Trade the item for an equivilant value. Usually when somebody wants an item such as an arachnid, they usually have items they percieve as being of similar value that they are prepared to exchange for them. Sometimes, if I see such a thread, where nobody else has offered them a arachnid, then I will step in and offer the arachnid and take from the trader the item(s) of similar value even though they are just as useless to me as the arachnid was. I get no benefit at all from a trade like that apart from a warm and fuzzy feeling that I've helped somebody out with their needs. Usually the item I get back goes into a "quarantine" stash where they either stay permanetly or end up getting deleted.

When it comes to receiving give aways, I'm probably better off than most people as I recieved an entire v1.09d Holy grail from a well known retiree (o1d_dude will remember this one!) and in turn I gave away some of it as well as keeping some myself.

I rarely give away items completely as free these days. I do prefer to charge something to the receiver though this rarely reflects the true value. It's a bit like covering the postage and handling expenses for "posting" it to them.

So, a solution then? Well, I guess my solution so far has been to avoid trading. I rarely benefit from trade threads I post or even reply to these days. There is no point posting a trade thread and just taking items of similar value in return. Loads of effort for no gain to myself and in a lot of cases it is easier to either give the items away or alternatively, delete them.

The problem with our economy is people like myself. My item collection spans v1.07-v1.12 which is what? 6-7 years worth of collecting items. Once a azurewrath or arachnid has been found, forever it exists. as time goes by more and more are found and if they all stay in this trading community the value of such items will fall as a direct result of supply and demand.

It's a tough problem to solve imho.

o1d_dude

01-08-2008, 06:19

RibGriller

01-08-2008, 06:44

So, maybe I gave away too much, too fast? I figured by hitting ISO threads, I would be targeting the people in need. If I post a Gieb-away thread, I can't really tell who has their heart set on what. But, I'm still trying to spread the wealth as much as possible.

I considered deleting my stashes briefly, but I couldn't let all my MFing go down the drain like that. I'd rather see alot of people benefit from it.

Like Asmo and alot of others, I have lots of Arachnid's Mesh, so giving away 3 or whatever is/was no big deal to me. I've got alot of higher valued stuff to worry about who gets what.

I've already PM'd people about stuff I know they've been hunting for a long time, like I wish someone would've done for me concerning a certain wand.

There will be time for contests when I get to my really expensive stuff. ;)

I like your idea of donating prizes for tourneys, Greebo, anyone can PM me if you'd like a tasty prize for your tourney.

Asmodeous

01-08-2008, 06:51

Quite right, Asmo. I remember the circumstances around that particular giveaway. I also remember that you gave me a Windy but it's only now that I put two and two together and realized that it came from Jordan's grail. LOL!

Sondan gave me the other Windy when he decided to scale back.

Sondan, The Dark Khan , and I (collectively known as The Trashmen) probably killed more 1.09 cows than any three guys around. We were in a game together the night my Javvie hit 99. Thus "Club 99" was born.

Sondan is still around but I have totally lost contact with TDK. Even now I still laugh at the way TDK would re-animate voodoo dolls and take them in to see Mephy. He'd also write things on the ground using his Clay Golem. Without a doubt he was the best Necro player I ever saw.

Rofl. Gee, getting a bit nostalgic there. Yes, I remember TDK and the trashmen.
But that's not why I'm posting. It wasn't Jordans grail I received, it was Luchaires!
I hope your memory isn't getting as bad as mine is! :crazyeyes:

Ribgriller

I don't think so. Over the years of these forums there has been many high profile players who have done exactly what you have, given up the game and flooded the forums with free items in give aways. No doubt its part of what thyiad and poops are discussing on the matter.
From what I have seen is that it does kill off trading for a while as a lot of players are "item content" for a while, but they finish the build the toys where for, move onto another build and trade again. Plus, as we discussed regarding the items you gave me, sometimes an giveaway item(s) can inspire a build.
Potentially I will need some toys for my new frenzy barb, so in some ways, give aways can create trading as well.

The other thing is that, given that I did try to give away an entire collection, people tend to "cherry pick". of the potential thousands of items I opened up for give away, People only really wanted the uber stuff which was back then, windy's, complete sets, storm spires, etc. All up I ended up giving away less than 100 items of those sorts of items that rarely trade anyway.
I guess at the root of it all, when a give away starts up, people naturally go for the cherries and forget all about the mid/low range stuff (as a general rule). It's human nature.

I bet I really surprised you asking for an guardian angel from your give away and a highlords. But I had a need. New frenzy barb will need a highlords. With all my uberdins and my new iron zerker, highlords are thin on the ground for me.

Darkoooo

01-08-2008, 07:39

I've spent reasonable amount of time doing my 8,500+ Meph (unsuccessful) runs to get my Arachnid Mesh.

Have you really done 8500+ Meph runs? Did you use a run counter or based that on assumption? Cause I know how many runs that is, and it's a lot, so so far you should have at least 2 or 3 Arachnids, dozen and more Harlys, plenty of Occys, and lots (and I really mean lots) of other great items.

I didn't read through all the thread, and maybe I shouldn't take part of this conversation because I'm no longer a member of SPTF. But why do you mind if people get free items? Do I sense jealousy? Just imagine how it is for people who play self found and need to actually run until they find it and not just trade for it. If you really want that Arachnid's you should've collected 100 Pgems by now from those 8500 runs and traded for it. Or if you traded those Pgems for other items you needed, then why say it's your ultimate goal to get one?

Greebo

01-08-2008, 08:05

Despite the fact that my initial post which started all this was somewhat petty and immature, there's still valuable input coming into this thread from many people. What can I say: I'm human. Sometimes I get frustrated. Say things which I would put differently if thinking straight.

@Thy: That was mostly what I was apologizing for...

Anyway, I thought I could add some ideas here, some of which are good, some of which are bad, but we're brainstorming. Anything can provide a spark of creativity for somebody else.

I think that sirpoops nailed the issue here, in noting that a 'proper' trade, in the sense that both sides truly benefit and nobody will delete traded items afterwards, is the most desirable outcome of a posted ISO.

(1) Guidelines vs. Rules
I think most of the things we're talking about shouldn't be some strict rule. Let's prepare a guideline for trading low-level item. It should explain why it isn't necessarily a good idea to immediately offer said items for 1PGem, and only do that after some time has past, etc. If you make a rule that trading for 1pgem is not allowed, people may choose to trade for 3pgems. This is quite a mature community, let's explain why and how, and I think people will follow. I'd imagine most of my other ideas should be formulated as a guideline, not a strict rule. Some of those are obvious, but I think it would be nice to have some obvious suggestions posted somewhere.

(2) Giveaways
Limiting giveaways to PM and Giveaway threads is an option. RibGriller said that he wanted to target people who needed items the most, and whilst that's a worthy sentiment, it doesn't work out perfectly this way. The people who post ISOs are possibly the ones who need items, but also think they can afford them. I imagine people who need items the most are the ones who think they cannot afford it. Which is why I think it might be a better idea to limit giveaways to their own threads: so that people who are in more need of the item get a chance to ask for it too. And make people tell you why they need an item, if it's something semi-expensive+.

(3) Rich and Famous
If you have plenty of items that someone else is looking for, but they cannot offer you anything of interest, hold on with offering yours. Maybe someone who can benefit from this trade will post there. This way you will be helping TWO people. Counterintuitive, but true.

(4) Gifts, not Grailers
Giveaways are for items you need for something, not for lying in your stash and providing higher percentage in Flavie display. One should not trade gifted items. One should pass gifts further, once the item in question is found. (With obvious exceptions: e.g. if you want to make double-stormlash wielding frenzy barb, keep the first gifted stormlash and make the build.)

(5) Limited-Taint-Protection
Consider a situation: I trade with X who gives me 15 PAmethysts. Using one of them, I craft an uber 20FCR,+2Pala,+20ResAll,Tele charges Ammy. 8 months later it turns out X duped his items. Now, there are some options:
- I delete 15 PAmethysts in my possession, gotten from HFs or something
- I delete the Ammy
- I delete the Ammy and anything tainted by it
Well, if the third option is on the table, I prefer to leave the PAmethysts in quarantine. Let's introduce limited taint protection. For PGems and runes Hel or lower. For such items, it is enough to discard the equivalent number of gems/runes as received in a trade, even though these are not exactly the same items. SC/HC/versions/mods apply of course. We cannot tell a gem from gem anyway.

That gives protection to rich traders, and it gives them the ability to benefit from trades. They can freely trade with NTPP players for reasonable amount of PGems and use them immediately without fear. And PGems are valuable to rich players. Who doesn't want a Spakling GC of Balance? Reroll, reroll, reroll. As correctly noted in this thread, charms and jewels are probably the most valuable items around. If I knew I can easily avoid taint by deleting other gems later, I wouldn't keep the ones I got from trades so far in quarantine (no offense to any people I traded with).

That I think should be an official rule. It allows the 'rich' of the forum to have mutually beneficial trades with NTPP players without the risk of getting tainted.
----------------

Alright. On a more personal note, I received two offers of a free Arachnid's Mesh by now. Which makes me feel even worse about all the petty stuff I wrote in the first place, but mostly makes me very happy and makes me feel like a part of this community, which is great. Thank you!

Thanks for reading,
--Greebo

silospen

01-08-2008, 08:59

Once you start legislating giveaways, people stop doing it. They're going out of their way to help other people out and the rules make it harder? That doesn't make any sense. As for the idea of taint going through pgems to crafting, I've said it before and I'll say it again: It's just bull****.

Greebo

01-08-2008, 10:07

(1) Guidelines vs. Rules

Once you start legislating giveaways, people stop doing it. They're going out of their way to help other people out and the rules make it harder? That doesn't make any sense.

(1) No legislations; guidelines. We're just discussing here, that it might be best for benefactors interests to hold giveaways in a certain way. We should explain why and put it in the guideline. Not legislation.

(2) Oh come on, that happens everywhere. In a nearby church, they collect food. Cans only, no glass or plastic containers, because it gets damaged in transport. 'No Ma'am, we don't want your salmon. It's not in a metal container'. The fact that you want to do something good for free is admirable, but it does not mean you deserve to do what you want how you want to do it. It does not mean that the trade rules should leave you without limits.

--Greebo

Thyiad

01-08-2008, 11:08

Guys, can we hold up a moment here. Let's leave out the snide comments. They aren't worthy, they aren't needed and I don't want to see any more of them. :)

Greebo raised a legitimate and reasonable issue. It's one poops and I were already discussing before this thread was even thought of, let alone posted. Greebo apologize for his original tone, nothing more needs to be said.

No one - least of all me - wants to prevent giveaways. They are without a doubt a great part of the SPF/SPTF spirit. But like HF rushing, they do have a huge impact on the trade pool and it seems to make trading difficult for less well-off.

Most of what we are talking about is mid range stuff. The Bers/Faiths etc aren't given away they require a "give me a plan and I'll decide" effort. But popping into a trade thread with Tals for a pgem *is* a valid point. Doing that also impacts NTPP. Giveaways don't count towards them, 1pgem trades do. (We consider removing the 15 trades limit so HC/vanilla players aren't penalized.)

Poops and I do welcome input and this thread has some potential here, so lets use that opportunity and keep on track. Thanks. :thumbup:

Thirty-Thirty

01-08-2008, 13:45

I think the discussion has covered the various bases. I'll repeat that I stand largely as an outsider, because I've participated relatively little in giveaways or trade.

As a suggestion to the generous folks that do offer items for below-value but end up superseding another trade offer, here's an idea/suggestion: if you're "rich" enough to give one person an item, you should also offer the other trader his desired item for "free" too.

So if Bob want's a SoE, Ted offers it for a Guillaume's. If Sheila wants to "give" them both their desired item, that's fine. But if Sheila only has a spare SoE, and not the Guillaume's, she should stay out of it.
This, as far as I'm concerned, is a very sound suggestion. I don't know how relevant it is, though, because I don't monitor the activity in the trade thread. But at least it seems like something that will curb the feeling of high-level players undermining one side of a trade.

The "Hey, don't give that away, I wanted to sell that item to this guy!" isn't that much better either...
I don't really want to argue with the Guardian of Guardians, but I think the concern about undermined trades is valid, in principle. When there's a trade of a Titan's for Arachnid's, say, and someone swoops in to giveaway the Titan's, then the guy looking for the Arachnid's does lose out in a way. I don't know how much this scenario really happens, though. (Really, I thought the giveaway-to-both traders thing would be the case anyway. Maybe the people giving away in the Trade Forum aren't as wealthy as those in the Giveaway threads?)

Also, I'm with the idea that you should just be playing for fun, when push comes to shove. If you can't enjoy D2 without a Grief, this probably isn't the game for you. If you hate that you might have to run for items, again, it just might not be the game for you.

Smips

01-08-2008, 13:55

You know, after sleeping on it, this issue has stopped making sense to me. For those of use who don't get enjoyment out of doing 10,000+Baal runs(or any MF target for that matter), how is devaluation of items a bad thing? Sure, I understand that the people who found them worked very hard for them, however if they cared about that aspect of it they wouldn't trade/give it away. So really, isn't this just making the hard to obtain items more obtainable? To me, that sounds like a way to get more out of the game; especially for those of us that don't have to the to do a plethora of runs. Again, this is just my two cents, but I thought I'd throw it out there because no one has looked at it like this. This doesn't answer the questions about the 1pgem trades or about taint, but I feel it certainly solves the issue as to whether giving away higher up items is alright.

maxgerin

01-08-2008, 15:08

As a suggestion to the generous folks that do offer items for below-value but end up superseding another trade offer, here's an idea/suggestion: if you're "rich" enough to give one person an item, you should also offer the other trader his desired item for "free" too.

So if Bob want's a SoE, Ted offers it for a Guillaume's. If Sheila wants to "give" them both their desired item, that's fine. But if Sheila only has a spare SoE, and not the Guillaume's, she should stay out of it.

Exactly the reason I stopped trading token-pgem style.
Since I won't be able to please everyone, might as well not meddle with other members' *possible* trade.
I'm not sure if that's good or bad thing, specially in cases where there might actually be no-one to offer the ISO, but I would rather keep quiet than lead others to *wrongly* think that I'm stealing their *possible* trade.

Once you start legislating giveaways, people stop doing it. They're going out of their way to help other people out and the rules make it harder?

Even if you site valid examples, Greebo, I think it will boil down to what silo pointed out.
At least for me, I know I wouldn't be bothered if "rules" are to be set-up guiding giveaways more complicated than those that we have now.
I'm cool with the Profile, the Tags, the Readouts, and everything currently in place as requisite for giveaways.
However, if it gets more complicated to the point where the positive "fussy feeling" of giving stuff is drowned by the hassle to actually give away items, then I wouldn't bother at all.
And I bet "old timers" would feel the same.
That would be so far out from what we're used to.

(We consider removing the 15 trades limit so HC/vanilla players aren't penalized.)

Are you thinking of implementing that for HC and/or Vanilla players ONLY, or the entire SPTF?
If it's the former then I'll say it's a good idea.
If it's the latter then I think we'll be doing away with the greatest progress of the SPF Trading system since...I don't know.
But really, I think that rule it THAT important.
Sir'poops has pointed it out in the past, here. (http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6369638&postcount=4)

__________________________________________________ ___

Here are some of my thoughts regarding trades/giveaways:

(1) Do not trade away items if you're feeling any second thoughts about the value you're getting for it. If you do, regret might creep in and that would just ruin your day.

(2) Strict item valuation should never ever be implemented in the SP(T)F. If you guys wish to keep this place a cut above the reeeee...most, then we must never trade as if the items have certain monetary equivalent. It's good to have price checks, but that is meant to shed some light on the items' consensual value, but never their actual value. Because, at the end of the day, it's about utility. If you think it's useless even if it's a rare item, then it wouldn't hurt to give it away, would it?

(3) Giveaways are good, unless someone is giving away duped/hacked/tainted warez. The manner by which they are coursed through might be debatable, but the essence of the enterprise is what keeps SPF a warm place to visit. As such, never ever feel sorry that someone else got this certain item for free while you have to burn your night's candle for so long just to get one, or sometimes none at all.

(4) As in real life, YOU > your items...unless you want to make you = or < your items. So, com'on, don't take it so seriously it becomes a chore. The game's point is to have fun, not to bring you down.

__________________________________________________ ___

I know I didn't offer any concrete workable solution to the dilemma, as I'm sure no-one will ever be able to, but I think if everyone considers those four points I (as well as others) raised, then it wouldn't be much of a concern even if very rare items fly left and right every so often. They might lose their "value" (which, again, should not be a big deal since it is arbitrary), but the items' utility would not be diminished at all.

Whew...that was long. :crazyeyes:

--maxgerin

Jaedhann

01-08-2008, 15:16

Holy crap Max, what wrong with you? You started thinking?:whistling:

I agree with every point you make. Fun > items. And item gotten for free < items gotten by hard work considering glory and fun. For me anyway.

I did a 'here re my item, if you want something say it'-giveaway once. I will not do it again. I'm all into giving people very good items for special projects though. Every oddball build has the oppertunity to rummish through most of my items. I just love it when one of my items that i don't use completes anotherones build.

Ohomemgrande

01-08-2008, 15:44

(We consider removing the 15 trades limit so HC/vanilla players aren't penalized.)

Are you thinking of implementing that for HC and/or Vanilla players ONLY, or the entire SPTF?
If it's the former then I'll say it's a good idea.
If it's the latter then I think we'll be doing away with the greatest progress of the SPF Trading system since...I don't know.
But really, I think that rule it THAT important.
Sir'poops has pointed it out in the past, here. (http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6369638&postcount=4)

I'll second that sentiment and position. 15 trades is practically impossible for a vanilla player these days. I'll generally stop in to the SPTF every 10-15 days to see if there are any vanilla ISO's since I can generally provide just about any S/U to the vanilla traders these days. However, most of the people's FT list contains nothing of interest to me. Since the only grailers I have missing from my collection are elite or cow king and generally TC87, the only thing I'd want would be runes or Pgems. I have more than enough NTTP runes for my needs so I'm left with only really asking for Pgems at this point. When you have 12 Harlequin Crests, you don't really care if someone gives you 1 Pgem or less. When I'm in that position, I generally just ask the buyer to set what they feel is a fair price with the minimum being 3 Pgems (so I could get at least 1 reroll of something).

Still, the only thing preventing me from just giving away the item in the first place is knowing how hard it is to get 15 trades in vanilla when there are no traders. I think 12-13 of my 15 required trades were for RWM/RRM items so that I could satisfy the 15-trade requirement, not because I had any need for any particular item.

For the "smaller" trade pools, I'd still like to see something like a 3-6 months active period in additional to some number of trades required but something more reasonable than 15.

Incidentally, (and not related to trades, etc), I installed RWM and CRM to my installation a couple of days ago so I think I've just moved from one small trade pool to another small trade pool. The only difference now is that I won't be "tainted" by any RRM stuff :thumbup: I still have my massive vanilla S/U stashes so I maintain some currency.

Regarding giveaways: I think they are great and have no problems with them except for when they disrupt someone trying to make a trade to get out of NTTP. Then they are VBM (very bad manners).

Now I'm going to run away to update my trade profile...

sirpoopsalot

01-08-2008, 15:59

Are you thinking of implementing that for HC and/or Vanilla players ONLY, or the entire SPTF?
If it's the former then I'll say it's a good idea.
If it's the latter then I think we'll be doing away with the greatest progress of the SPF Trading system since...I don't know.
But really, I think that rule it THAT important.
Sir'poops has pointed it out in the past, here. (http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6369638&postcount=4)

We were thinking of keeping the 3 months required, but removing the 15 trades limit - across the board.

As it is currently, HC and/or Vanilla players have a really hard time getting out of NTPP, and that seems unfair to them just because they're not like 98% of the rest of the trade community. And it might/will hopefully cut back on the "gimme this for one pgem brigade" of people just trying to get their 15 trades on record...

... the 3 months portion of NTPP will probably/surely remain though (unless someone comes along with a magic wand and revolutionizes the entire community's outlook on trading). After seeing your points though (and mine :p), I'd be willing to reconsider keeping a minimum quantity of trades too, but maybe lower it to a more reasonable amount. (5?, 10?, 2?).

<--- input welcome.

And I find it very interesting that some of these topics have come up on their own; Thyiad & I have been talking about many of them on&off for a month, especially yesterday just before this thread was posted, and we were probably within a week or two of bringing it up for the community...

BobTheWarrior

01-08-2008, 16:01

I’ve just finished reading every word written in this thread. My emotions while reading it ran the gamut from “Well though out, good point” to “You have no business posting in this thread!!”. In the interest of keeping things constructive (and not getting banned), I’ll try to keep my emotions out of my reply.

This particular topic is something that is important to me. I think you’ll value my opinions if you have an understanding of how I joined this community, therefore here is a quick synopsis of my SPTF history:

<history>
I quit bnet in October last year, took a two-month break, then came to the SPF (where I’d been lurking for some time). I started my first SP character on New Years day and made it most of the way through the game to hell solo and untwinked (then I had a little MP help to get across the finish line). This was very early in January, and I noticed a thread titled something like “A Christmas Present 2” where a large group of ‘rich’ players had contributed items into a giveaway pool which was then distributed to needy new players. I was fortunate enough to receive one of those giveaway stashes (even though it was January) and I believe it contained over 350 items, most of the Normal and Exceptional uniques and many Elite uniques (including several NTPP restricted, IIRC). Since then I have struggled to join the SPTF and ‘earn’ my way to 15 trades to attain FTS status.

Since the massive giveaway stash took care of most of my low level S/U concerns, it became difficult to find good NTPP trades of worth to me. On the rare occasion that I did find a trade I could benefit from, I was usually between a couple hours and a few days late to the trade, and someone else had made the ‘token pgem’ offer to the buyer.
</history>

On the topic of ‘the economy’
It appears to me that the economy of the SPTF is highly segregated, with the only real co-mingling of the NTPP and FTS groups being 1) giveaways and 2) token pgem trades, with few exceptions. As I indicated in my history above, I’ve only been part of the SPTF for eight months, so there is little in the way of “how it used to be” with me. The only significant change since my joining the SPTF has been the retirement of the “socketables for pgems” thread, which I never had the need or opportunity to partake in.

It has been suggested by Tormal (post #34) that a three-tier system could work, consisting of giveaways, NTPP trades for appropriate values, and FTS trades for appropriate values. I like this idea, using the recently created Price Check page by bassen with help from other forum members for valuation.

I would expand on this idea, by allowing an item within the ‘NTPP trades for appropriate value” to be given to a buyer once no replies have been made in the thread for 48 hours. If someone has a need and is willing to pay, but no one has the item available or is willing to sell it for the appropriate value, let someone who is ‘rich’ come in after 48 hours an offer them the item for free. This could allow those who are retiring or feeling generous (and those who would quarantine and/or delete the offered value in fear of receiving an item from an unsavory person) to contribute to the community. Giving the item to a seeker would eliminate the ‘token pgem’ issue and not count towards FTS status.

On the topic of ‘token pgems’
I believe this practice should be allowed to die, or regulated to a specific list of items (see above), piggybacking on the efforts of bassen et al to create a consolidated Price Check page. Anything not of value as a grailer or as a sought-after unique/set/rare/charm/jewel (again, as defined in the PC page) should be given away, not sold for a token item for the purpose of attaining FTS status.

On the topic of ‘richness’
It has been discussed that ‘rich’ players are causing some grief in the SPTF by devaluing items using the ‘token pgem’ offer or via giveaways, and that ‘rich’ players should be defined before any rules or guidelines could be defined to help the economy.

‘Rich’ players can self-regulate. If you feel that you would be willing to sell an item for a token pgem, you are ‘rich’ in that item and have devalued it in your own mind. There is no need to have a policy set to define ‘richness’.

Some further comments

As such, never ever feel sorry that someone else got this certain item for free while you have to burn your night's candle for so long just to get one, or sometimes none at all.

Max, I’m going to pick on your comment, nothing personal, but it’s been said by others a few times already.

Feeling annoyed/sorry/hurt/angry that someone received an item for free that you’ve been desiring for awhile is natural, I’ve felt it myself. I felt hurt after I purchased a bow in a pgem auction then saw it given away to someone in another thread. Did I feel better about myself because “I paid for my purchase”? No, can’t say that I did because of the prevalence of the ‘token’ or ‘free’ items in the SPTF. If everyone had to ‘earn’ their items (either by putting in the time to find them, or collecting the things of value to others to trade for them), I wouldn’t have felt bad. Yes, they’re just ones-and-zero’s, but the time I put forth to collect, mule, bid, and e-mail my pgems is valuable to me, I’d rather not see others devalue my time.

I could forsee that the extreme generosity of the SPTF community may cause them to begin to be taken advantage of. If I had wanted an Arachs (sorry, Greebo, picking on you too, nothing personal) but didn’t feel like I had something of value to trade for it (or what I had was restricted by NTPP rules), I could still make an “ISO: Arachs” thread and just wait and hope someone would offer one for the token pgem or free. All I would have to do is stall any legitimate offers (do you have any X charms? Yadayadayada) and hope someone ‘rich’ comes to my thread. Many more ‘giebzorz’ threads would pop up, veiled as a legitimate ISO. (I’m not accusing anyone of doing this, just hypothetical)

I know this seems far fetched, but if everyone is willing to give useful but rare items away and think ‘This is good, I’m giving back to the community” is potentially hurting the community by devaluing the item and providing incentive to others to just ask for items for free instead of earning them.

A small sidetrack, it’s been said a couple times that “if you don’t like the economy, go self-found”. This comment doesn’t sit well with me. Not everyone enjoys the challenge of the self-found grail. If this is your mindset I understand your opinion, but it isn’t a constructive solution to the issues raised by the OP, unless we just get rid of SP trading altogether and all go self-found. I’ll stop now before I go too far.

I’m beginning to see a different type of segregation within the SPTF because of this thread. One group thinks “Define a value for each item respective to a single instrument, and set rules based on the item value”. The other group thinks “The economy is fluid and based on each parties respective value of an item. If they both feel the trade is fair, it’s fair”. I can’t say one or the other is the right way or the wrong way, but the community will have to pick a way and stick to it. It seems like we’re trying to do it both ways right now, and it doesn’t appear to be working. BTW, I fall into the first category.

Final (for now) thoughts
The above are comments and opinions of a frustrated NTPP trader. I’m conflicted between making an “ISO: 15 trades so I can get out of NTPP” thread and trying to do it the right way and earn the trust and respect of the individuals of the community and find good trades for myself. So far I think I’ve accomplished 11 trades towards my FTS status, and I’m happy with most of them. But those few that I did just to get another notch in my FTS belt don’t feel right with me.

I will probably have more to say, but I need to get this posted as every time I refresh someone else has commented!

maxgerin

01-08-2008, 16:06

Holy crap Max, what wrong with you? You started thinking?:whistling:

I try to do less of it when I'm at home, but threads like this just turns the button on. :p

I'm all into giving people very good items for special projects though. Every oddball build has the oppertunity to rummish through most of my items. I just love it when one of my items that i don't use completes anotherones build.

Hear, hear. :nod:
It's like paying your due for the inspiration/enjoyment you'll get once the project is completed.
I like assisting oddball projects too cause ideas derived from them are enough to keep me entertained even though I never actually complete those plans I derived from other members' crazy ideas.

EDIT:

I see where you're coming from, Bob.

You're from Bnet, and I heard they have a certain "value" system over there, so I think it's natural for you to look for that here as well.

However, my problem about equating a certain item vis-a-vis another item (thereby making a value system) is that it leads to a very tight/constrained community. For example, I have a spare Griffon's Eye. The items at par are, say, high runes (Vex and above), DWeb, DFathom, and WF. What if all I need is a Vamp Gaze? And the person interested with my Griffon's only have that (not those items "at par"). Then, because of your value system, I won't be able to trade for one with my Griffon's even if there's a market already (a buyer and a seller). Wouldn't that suck?

I don't know, but personally, I'm fiercely against making a value system the entire SPTF must adhere to.
These value system will lead to greed, and greed will just lead us...nowhere better.
When that day comes, I think I wouldn't see any difference between SPF/SPTF and what I *hear* of Bnet.

Basically, just my thoughts and fears of what might happen to this place when it gets out of hand, or too organized, depending on which side of the fence your inclination is.

--maxgerin

mosinn

01-08-2008, 16:17

I must admit, I didn't read the whole thread (yet), but I have to express my opinion.

I, for myself, don't intend to trade nor take part in giveaways. That's why I quit Bnet and started SP. I only use items I find myself, or items that drop while MP'ing. That's why I really don't care if people are giving away insane items for free.

However, I completely understand greebo and I agree with him mostly. Make a tournament or give your stash to greebo, and let him host a tourney, with some amazing prizes.

Lucky me, finding that Arachnid's during my regular questing :whistling:

Thyiad

01-08-2008, 16:31

I'm really pleased how this is going so keep constructive comments coming. Please bear a couple of things in mind:

* simplicity
- we already have three tiers (Giveaway threads not counting to NTPP, NTPP and Full trade status)

* NTPP 15 trades as a 'history'
- a 1pgem trade doesn't give any worthwhile background information which is why it was no hardship to suggest abolishing it and keeping the time requirement

* Fairness to all traders
- new who need a sigons set, more established who are moving into exceptionals/mf gear and old-timers who don't move unless it's a rare elite. ;)

* Moderation time
- we're lazy. Well, we are! Seriously, we don't want to spend time regulating what should be self-responsibility of traders. I bang on about trader responsibility in every thread like this but it is a valid point, so please re-read my previous posts. Ideally we would like no rules in the SPTF and leave traders to ensure items meet our criteria for legitimate items, ensure items are the right status and are despatched on time for a reasonable fee. We want less regulation not more but we can't do that unless traders show some responsibility; check their partners (which requires genuine trades), adhere to the rules without constant reminders (*stares at a few people*) and think before trading classic SoJ's with a person with 1 post.

Please help us with those things and we'd *all* be a lot happier. :)

Happy commenting.

Rummski

01-08-2008, 16:48

A very interesting topic.

I recently came back to the game, with a very large stash of self found mid-level 1.07-1.09 items, including the now uber Raven Claw. I have been asked and traded for them in many ways, but I always felt I needed to get the "value" for the item in thoughts of the community. I have more Raven Claws, I don't plan on giving them away. I do hope to use them when I get FTS for some NTPP restricted items. I have benefitted both from trades and giveaway's including today. I feel very proud that in just over a month I have worked out 15+ trades and with a couple giveaways filled my every "want". I have until today also restrained myself from begging for NTPP items, it's personal choice, but within the rules set currently anyone can beg for any item. I think that is the biggest issue with giveaways, everyone wants the uber-items for nothing (including me :smile:) I think the main thing that needs to stay strong is the valuation of the items.

How about extending the NTPP restrictions to giveaways?
Increasing the minimum Pgems on certain items to 5 or more (We can use the newly created PCFAQ to decide which items)?
Limit the number of items a person can beg for to 1 every couple days. I know that may be cumbersome for the person handling the giveaway if folks come back week after week.
Have all giveaway's handled by a single person (again a cumbersome undertaking), but if used in tandem with my 3rd idea it could limit the folks who don't plan on being contributors to the community and just want the leet items.

Wow, that might not be coherant at all...all I can say is I think it's pretty cool that people are even worried about a topic like this, in a game that's been around for a long time.

kanonfutter

01-08-2008, 16:54

I think that giveaways and token trades are perfectly acceptable, being receipient a couple of times. My view on the trade economy is that it is severely deflated by people playing a lot of hours for several years. So be it, and I do not think it is going to change. The cases cited where it is problematic is SoE and Guilarmes, and ntpp'ers being stuck. In both cases, the problem resolves by taking for granted that almost anything is of very low value.

SoE and Guilarmes: Both items are of little value in the trade pool, so while the SoE seller did not aquire the Guilarmes, he could post an ISO and get it for a few Pgems. This also implies that he should not charge a high price when somebody writes an ISO on a SoE. The problem is that when you finally find your first of a mid-range item, you have carted of pgems by the load. So pgems seem of little value in comparison.

Leaving ntpp: While I got frustrated about missing possible trades as well, I got around to offer my extras at the current price, which is a pgem or so. Also, writing a few FT threads helps. I sold of a a few rares that would have gone to Charsi otherwise.

The amount of wealth in the trade pool means that anyone could make most of their grail in a few months with pgem trading. However, in doing so, running for the last bits will become really annoying, because so few drops will count for anything.

The top tier trades, however, goes on as usual. HR's, good charms, rares and jewels, and the hard to get TC87's will be sought after and traded for the rest of the lifetime of the game.

In perspective, this means that most of the activities in the SpTf is generosity, with little actual trading going on. People might take advantage of this, but I have rarely seen this happening to an amount I found disturbing.

xduckster

01-08-2008, 16:58

I agree with what has been said about the 15 trades. I was already fairly item rich when I joined the trading community. Therefore, I resorted to trading away some of my many mid-level items for token pgems, or trying to bid on the cheap items people were placing up in their auctions that were only semi-useful to me.

If the point is to create an item history, how about making a requirement to post a minimum number of items in the IFT, so that the community can see what kind of items you have. Then, make a smaller minimum number of trades to get out of NTTP. so that the trader can learn the SPFTF policies.

scottee

01-08-2008, 18:06

@ Thyiad- yes, I did indeed see your statement that we will not have a giveaway thread again. I'm still going to suggest it, and you can shoot me down if the modifications I suggest don't sound like they'd work.

Okay, so I suggest a giveaway thread. The idea here is not a thread where people go to beg for items. Instead, this thread would exist only as a gathering place for flavie reports from people who have items to give away. So, if this thread actually happened, then I would have posted the link to my giveaway flavie into this thread rather than create an entire new thread about it. Perhaps it could be handled somewhat like the trader profile page, where the links are all edited into the first post or three. Then, people who are looking for a specific item and don't mind taking freebies could browse through the flavie reports and pm the person who owns it.

This idea would definitely go along well with that of removing the 15-trade NTPP requirement.

Greebo

01-08-2008, 18:28

I see where you're coming from, Bob.

You're from Bnet, and I heard they have a certain "value" system over there, so I think it's natural for you to look for that here as well.

I'm sorry but there is something that bothers me about this comment. Yes, b.net is a nasty place from what I heard (never actually went there). But that does not mean that EVERYTHING they do is bad. Everyone in the world has a good idea once in a while. If you want nothing to do with anything associated with b.net, I'm sorry, you cannot play D2. They play it there, too ;).

Let's not treat 'People do it at b.net' as a valid argument to claim something is wrong. Dune has been posting very-much-b.net-like MP Hell Baal runs for couple of past days, and it's lots of fun.

However, my problem about equating a certain item vis-a-vis another item (thereby making a value system) is that it leads to a very tight/constrained community. For example, I have a spare Griffon's Eye. The items at par are, say, high runes (Vex and above), DWeb, DFathom, and WF. What if all I need is a Vamp Gaze? And the person interested with my Griffon's only have that (not those items "at par"). Then, because of your value system, I won't be able to trade for one with my Griffon's even if there's a market already (a buyer and a seller). Wouldn't that suck?

You know, I just sent a PM to one of the people who posted here last night, with almost exactly this example. So allow me to cite myself:

Your point is that I should stay out of what people want to do at their computers. But that's just not true, if they join the trade pool. If it was the case we wouldn't be reporting giveaways with all the fingerprints and all. All the trading could be done by PM. But the community decided to create some sort of trading system, and by nature, this kind of system will try to create the economy by itself.

Imagine: You found gold Diadem. You don't really need one and want to sell it. (It's perfect so Ohm+). But you decide that you want to see how cool this lightsorc could be. You play one for 2 weeks and are now ready to trade the griffons. But in the meantime, someone decided to clean his stashes, so people got 7 griffons for free (or 10 pgems or sth). How are your chances on getting a fair price now? And you really wanted CtA.

In an economy actions of others affect actions you can take.

Now, SPF is mostly community, but it introduced to itself a bit of economy when the trading system was designed. We do tell people how to trade and how to give away. That's because it was decided a system like that will be beneficiary, long before I even registered here.

The main point: if you trade your Griffon's for Vamp Gaze, there might be some other person somewhere who got affected by your decisions in a negative manner.

The thing is: _you_ could post an ISO: Vamp Gaze. And you'd get replies immediately. You'd find a good one for some PGems (I'm sure you have some).

Don't need the second Griffon's? Make a Giveaway, ask people to tell you their projects. Maybe someone is trying to make a 200FCR singer barb with some sort of lightning elemental damage backup (I don't know if it's doable). Wouldn't you rather have such person have your Griffon's?

------
This is actually an important point I think:
- Giving items away for a very small price, devalues their worth in the economy.
- Giving them away for free does not, since they will never be sold.

--Greebo

BobTheWarrior

01-08-2008, 19:04

@scottee-

I really like your idea, but in thinking through the logistics, I wonder if it would work.

I think hosting a single thread with links to everyones giveaway would work, but then how do we report the giveaways? Do we make a new thread each time an item is given? Do we follow RibGriller's lead an make a "Giveaway reports" thread? Or, do we follow Winmar's lead with the Mat/Pat thread and post each giveaway report/readout in the same Giveaway thread and the ask the mods to keep the first post or two updated monthly?

Remember, the mods are lazy (self-proclaimed! Don't ban me!). They'll still have to comb through whatever method we use to report the giveaways, but now we're asking them to also edit a thread on either a on-request PM basis, or on a Monthly basis. I don't see how any of the above reporting/tracking examples would reduce the mod workload, only add to it...

@max-
I see your point, I was only thinking on the lower levels of token pgem and giveaway range items. Once the item value (according to the community) goes up, the item value (according to the individual) may not. Most people would value Griffons higher than a Vamp Gaze, but if you only play melee builds, that would not be the case. But, that goes back to what I said about the two different group valuations (currency based or 'worth' based, if you will)

P.S. I came to the forums originally playing SP, but I was lurking at the time, I then moved to Bnet with a friend, but I was a fish out of water as I maintained my SP mentality, then I returned to SP. So, to say I came from bnet is not accurate, but I forgive you :)

Edit:

This is actually an important point I think:
- Giving items away for a very small price, devalues their worth in the economy.
- Giving them away for free does not, since they will never be sold.

I don't think that holds true over time. You said it yourself.

You play one for 2 weeks and are now ready to trade the griffons. But in the meantime, someone decided to clean his stashes, so people got 7 griffons for free (or 10 pgems or sth). How are your chances on getting a fair price now?

If there are 20 'free' griffons floating around that cannot be sold, what are the chances of finding someone to pay for one? Once an item enters into the 'free' pool, it devalues all of the similar items that are in the 'trade' pool, doesn't it? Or am I way off...

Greebo

01-08-2008, 20:12

@BobTheWarrior

Yes, I did say so myself, but I think I was partially wrong.

I think that Giveaways are less harmful than undervalued trades.
(1) Undervalued trades cannot be reasonably considered as proof of ones trust, at all.
(2) Most of the people, to larger or smaller extent, want to complete the grail. The gifts don't count here. They are something you got in order to make a build, or to help you get a better MF character. Whatever. The point is, it's not yours to keep forever. There is social pressure to give it up later. So, for instance, if it's Griffon's, person who got one in a Giveaway will still want to find/trade one; perhaps not as much as someone who doesn't have any, but still.

--Greebo

water_moon

01-08-2008, 21:28

#1 disclaimer: I have a degree in classical economics, therefore I will never trade on the forum.

I just have to address the two issues I keep seeing:
1. "value" is in the eye of the beholder, giving away is part of the economy, social order collapse is a result of forced "giving" which is o/c not giving. I don't think any one giving away items sees them as vaulable as some one selling them, but then that's the whole point! (Supply curves include both those selling for $0 and those whose selling price approches infinity)
Example: My friend picked up a $700 Gucci back at a grage sale for $35. She thought she got the greatest deal, I don't much care for purses so as far as I'm concerned it's a rip at $35 or $700.

2. The flip side is they aren't valued as much by the reciever. (You value what you earn, our brains are not logical in this respect, but then that was another major beef I had with the econ models, *pft* asssuming everyone is RATIONAL)
To continue Example: When she thought it couldn't be worth more than $200 she let her 1 year old son drag it all over the floor, now she's afraid to even use it (insert rolling eyes here)

And set prices/forced preference for item - item trades just don't make sense, sure pgems are money (which by defintion is a store of value) but they do have an in game use. Why penalize some one because their desired item isn't available at the exact same time as their valuable-to-others item?

I guess my point is that the current system as it is makes sense to me. It's not perfect (the perfect system would involve perfect knowledge...) but the changes possible without a compleate overhaul are less reasonable. For instance, the volume of activity is generaly considered to be a better marker for trustworthiness than the value, though a hybrid system of convolution could always be adopted.....

Psychic Watch

02-08-2008, 00:59

Impartial observer checking in.

A potentially in-game solution exists for the "great, ANOTHER Arachnid Mesh" problem (replace "Arachnid Mesh" with whatever item-value category suits your status). This solution would also benefit the moderators by reducing their workload.

The caveat is that it requires the same willingness to embrace outside-the-box thinking as led to ATMA's creation and adoption. ATMA and the SPTF are game modifications that encourage continued play beyond Blizzard's limitations.

In a similar light, I suggest that it's time to consider another evolution beyond the current limitations. An additional upside is that the solution is as easy to implement as the RWM. I'll leave it at that for now.

Dodgydave

02-08-2008, 03:44

#1 disclaimer: I have a degree in classical economics, therefore I will never trade on the forum.

Mwahaha, I've got two economics degrees so I suppose I have one to trade/giveaway!

Without going all economicsy and crap I'll just say I don't know if an actual "rule" needs to be in place concerning giveaways/1pg trades.

Maybe, just if "richer" members used some discretion (I'm not saying people don't of course), and waited a little longer to jump in, or didn't offer 1pg trades unless they were really on the hunt for PGs.

omgwtfbbqpwned

02-08-2008, 04:07

How come I'm never on the receiving end for these Bers and whatnot? I'm needy too. :dontknow:

Asmodeous

02-08-2008, 06:53

Maybe, just if "richer" members used some discretion (I'm not saying people don't of course), and waited a little longer to jump in, or didn't offer 1pg trades unless they were really on the hunt for PGs.

Something I have been doing for some time to a degree. An example is a trade thread somebody posted looking for all the missing items they needed for the grail. The thread went for 3-4 pages to the point where the OP trade a few items with the usual ommissions like Tyreals and dwebs. I kept my eye on the thread and when I thought that the thread was pretty much "dead" I stepped in and offered one of the items the OP was looking for and hadn't yet been offered which was a dragon scale shield.

So it was a case where my wealth came into use, filling a trade nobody else could or would forfill and helping another D2 player out as it where. Unusually for myself, the trade was of benefit to myself as I received a couple of decent runes for the shield which I was pretty happy about.
I think that perhaps the "rich" traders out there should show some form of restraint. I had no idea that new NTPP traders had problems completing 15 trades to break into FTS, laying part of the blame at wealthier traders pricing them out of the market. It is hard to realise the plight of other traders when you sit on such a huge pile of wealth.

One idea is a seperate thread for ISO items not gained via prior trade threads. The poster of a trade thread posts up the usual ISO/FT thread. The thread runs it course as per normal to the point where it runs it's course but the OP has 1 or more items not offered from there ISO.
The OP could then post this item(s) into the seperate ISO thread. From there, wealthy traders would be allowed to reply offering the item in exchange for what they want/expect which could be cubing fodder/pgems/socket quests/etc or even donate the item to the OP. That way the OP has to run the guantlet of fair trading for the item first before qualifying for a shot at a possible cheaper trade via wealthier traders who value the item lowly.
Problem is, it would need rules & guidelines, the circumstances of the ISO item qualifying for the special thread, determining who is a "wealthy" trader allowed to respond and all sorts of can of worms type stuff.

Perhaps all that is needed is a long thread just like this one to open the eyes of the wealthy traders to help them realise the situation and implement their own guidelines in order to be fair to other traders in the SPTF. I think that's worked on this wealthy trader at least.

maxgerin

02-08-2008, 14:05

I'm sorry but there is something that bothers me about this comment. Yes, b.net is a nasty place from what I heard (never actually went there). But that does not mean that EVERYTHING they do is bad. ...

Let's not treat 'People do it at b.net' as a valid argument to claim something is wrong.

Actually, when I was typing that reply to Bob I thought that it might sound offensive for b.netters, but I decided to post it even so because I know that that is not my intention and I phrased it well enough, imo.
My focus there was the "value" system operating in b.net, which leads to greed, which I hope wouldn't happen here in the SPF. Nothing more.

And no-where in my post you replied to did I ever claimed that b.net was a "nasty" place, or that "EVERYTHING they do is bad."
Please, read it again carefully, cause one of the things that irks me alot is when someone puts words into my mouth other than mine.
Maybe that's how you think, so that's how you interpreted my post.
Whatever.
Just don't interpret my CLEAR words and thoughts into something else.

@max-
P.S. I came to the forums originally playing SP, but I was lurking at the time, I then moved to Bnet with a friend, but I was a fish out of water as I maintained my SP mentality, then I returned to SP. So, to say I came from bnet is not accurate, but I forgive you :)

Was working from your "<history> I quit bnet in October last year, took a two-month break, then came to the SPF (where I’d been lurking for some time). ... </history>" intro to your post, so I have no fault there to be forgiven. Though I forgive you for your wrong <history> chronology. ;)

Just nitpicking. :p

And set prices/forced preference for item - item trades just don't make sense, sure pgems are money (which by defintion is a store of value) but they do have an in game use. Why penalize some one because their desired item isn't available at the exact same time as their valuable-to-others item?

I guess my point is that the current system as it is makes sense to me. It's not perfect (the perfect system would involve perfect knowledge...) but the changes possible without a compleate overhaul are less reasonable. For instance, the volume of activity is generaly considered to be a better marker for trustworthiness than the value, though a hybrid system of convolution could always be adopted.....

QFT. :)

Perhaps all that is needed is a long thread just like this one to open the eyes of the wealthy traders to help them realise the situation and implement their own guidelines in order to be fair to other traders in the SPTF. I think that's worked on this wealthy trader at least.

Yes, I think this thread has been a real eye-opener.
As for me, it has validated my decision to stop doing those token-pgem "trades".
Furthermore, I think it adds to the morale of new traders if they actually pay for their items. :nod:

--maxgerin

Greebo

02-08-2008, 17:36

Actually, when I was typing that reply to Bob I thought that it might sound offensive for b.netters, but I decided to post it even so because I know that that is not my intention and I phrased it well enough, imo.
My focus there was the "value" system operating in b.net, which leads to greed, which I hope wouldn't happen here in the SPF. Nothing more.

And no-where in my post you replied to did I ever claimed that b.net was a "nasty" place, or that "EVERYTHING they do is bad."
Please, read it again carefully, cause one of the things that irks me alot is when someone puts words into my mouth other than mine.
Maybe that's how you think, so that's how you interpreted my post.
Whatever.
Just don't interpret my CLEAR words and thoughts into something else.

I didn't claim you said that, did I? The first paragraph there, together with the next sentence "Everyone in the world has a good idea once in a while. If you want nothing to do with anything associated with b.net, I'm sorry, you cannot play D2. They play it there, too ;)." was meant ironically and sarcastically. The whole paragraph.

My point is "It's done on b.net" is not a good argument against something. And I think we actually agree on that one. :thumbup:

--Greebo

EDIT: @30-30: Oh, I get that.

I'm not entirely sure I completely agree with max's argument, though. SPF is about the community, but having an economy with somewhat predictable prices for items has its advantages. It also causes plenty of problems, sure enough. I think it's about finding the right balance here.

Thirty-Thirty

02-08-2008, 17:51

The way I understood max's point was that the stable prices in the BNet economy would remove a certain class of one-sided-generosity type deals. Not quite the token-pgem trades, but like his Griffon's Eye for Vamp Gaze example. Max's point was that the BNet pricing structure is different, rather than wrong.

Just chipping in to possibly clear any misunderstanding. Or just make it worse. :p

DarkChaos

02-08-2008, 19:22

I'm currently hosting a giveaway among friends, and while it is not directly tied to the SPTF, it still affects it indirectly. If I had to be aware of certain rules and such on what to do with my items, I simply would discontinue it and delete all the items instead.

Not sure if there are others like me, but for me, having rules and such would ruin giveaways - and much of the community here at the SPF, since it's existed, has been closely linked by the giveaways.

bassen

02-08-2008, 20:41

*finally done with reading most of this thread*
(warning my post might be a bit political)

Guilty:
When I first saw this thread I felt very guilty. Since I became a member I have held many giveaways therfore I'm much to blame for this thread, I admit it.

My point of view:
Haven't been the same as yours. When I giveaway items I do it for a few reasons.
- I don't need the item (I only keep what I need or what I think I'm gonna need)
- I feel like I wanna be kind to someone (I'm a very happy person and I also love to spread joy being kind to other people)
- I like to share when I have much (that's reveals much of my political view)

What I've done:
I can see how this crashes a bit how you experience it. For example did I giveaway a Death Cleaver a few weeks ago which is a TC87. I had found two and I actually felt bad keeping one.

The same goes for my Tal's set. I was very close to give away it when nobody posted a "offer"-reply". I still feel bad by keeping the Tal's set in my stash and not give it away to someone who really want's/needs it (another political reveal). The only thing that have been holding me away is the NTTP-restrictions.

Pgem Token:
I see a few of you have refered to the PC-FAQ and suggested (if I understand correct) to use it as a minimum offer when it comes to NTTP-traders. For example:

Biggin's Bonnet 5 pgems from the PC-FAQ (http://www.freewebs.com/sebbze/pcfaq.htm) would ake us to demand at least 5 pgems from anyone who ISO it. (have I understand correct?)

I admit this suggestion have it's benefits but it still in conflict to the fact that "rich" people don't feel they need more since they'd likely could give it away.

My opinion about pgem token:
I would say that the pgem token trades should be allowed for the reason above "since they'd likely could give it away" BUT no feedback can be given (as in giveaways) which means this won't nenefit when you trying to get out of NTTP.

Greebo

02-08-2008, 21:07

@Bassen: doesn't seem particularly political to me. Plus, you live in Sweden. ;)

I'm really undecided whether it's a good idea, but I had it and I thought I might post it here to see what other people think about it:

Idea:
We could have minimal prices for some of the items. E.g. 15 PGems for a Shako or something. Reasonably low ones. However, anybody could choose to charge nothing as well, i.e. give away for free.

To put it this way: two options
- either give items for free (no feedback counting towards FTS)
- sell at a reasonable price (feedback counts towards FTS)

That way it is in the interest of NTPP traders to trade with someone who wants to receive something of similar value in return.

It's very hard to make this a strict rule. Options:
- Using it as a guideline only.
- 'Reasonable price' could be just something that Mods judge. It means more work for them, but I think it would almost never happen.
- Make a list of minimal 'reasonable' prices, so that only if item is sold for this much or more, would that trade count towards FTS status.

The good thing is, that kind of solution does not make giveaways any more complicated. Any new burdens fall onto NTPP players, and they are the ones getting most out of those trades, so that's fine.

--Greebo

Thyiad

02-08-2008, 23:33

BobTheWarrior

03-08-2008, 00:56

scottee

03-08-2008, 01:51

@ Bob- I think it's a relevant question. Personally, I don't really use the number of trades a person has acquired (whether they be one pgem type or real-value, whatever you want to call it) when I judge what I'm willing to trade with that person. I tend to go more by the behavior I have seen that person engage in here on the forums. Now, for really high value items, I'll only trade with people who have been around for quite some time (and who therefore have an investment in these forums), or someone that I feel I have really good reason to trust- again basing this off their behavior in the SPF and SPTF.

I guess it boils down to: behavior matters more than number/value of trades, in my eyes.

maxgerin

03-08-2008, 06:21

Max's point was that the BNet pricing structure is different, rather than wrong.

Yes, that's exactly what I meant in my original post (http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6674637#post6674637). :)

Regarding Bob's query:

Honestly, I don't care whether a trader has 1 or 100 ratings to his/her credit, as long as I feel doubtful about him/her, the number is irrelevant.
Though of course I'm always cautious of new traders, hence the token-pgem trades I did before.
And, unless otherwise pressed, I don't give out Trade Rating for those token-pgems, or just neutral rating for those who insisted.

--maxgerin

Summoned

03-08-2008, 08:30

*Personally* (non-green) I'd just like to see people respecting the spirit of the no giveaways in 24 hours, rather than just the words. I don't think anyone genuinely wants new rules; I don't.

It's really good to see so many opinions in this thread, particularly from the less well-established. :) It's been a while since we had a realy chew-on topic I think.
I agree completely. Trading someone an item for 1 pgem (even if it's not extremely rare, i.e. shaftstop) is just a way to get around the 24 hour giveaway rule. It's probably not worth anything to someone who's 99% complete with the self-found grail, but please wait a day before giving it away.

bassen

03-08-2008, 09:30

Something I've become curious about as this thread has developed:

@FTS traders-

How important is a new FTS's history in your decision to trade with them?

If you see someone made 15 token pgem trades, would you trade FTS items with them or not based on this trade history?

I hesitate to ask this next question, as your answer may influence other's actions: What is/are your criteria for deciding if you will trade your high value items with a new FTS person, if not the 15 NTPP trades?

I think these questions are relevant to this discussion, so I hope I'm not going OT, but if I am I would be happy to re-ask these questions in a new thread.

When I trade with someone I mostly look at the time they have been members since I belive time is more important than the number of trades.

Thyiad IIRC talked a few pages back about lower the number of trades because of HC. I think that's a good idea but it has it's weakness with the amount of time. If we lower the number of trades we should raise the time instead. I would suggest 6 months instead of 3. Which means I would still be NTTP but that's something I just have to accept if the rules are retroactive.

So my proposal is:
6 months
15 trades if you play SC
8 trades if you play HC
15 trades if you play both

If you within the 6 months go from SC to HC you still need 15 trades
If you go from HC to SC you need additional 7 trades.

Edit

I have another proposal. When you look in the Trader-profiles you only see the date when they were updated. When I trade with people who have FTS I'm curious when they joined the SPTF. Their join date on their profiles (not trader-profiles) can be very diffrent if they joined the SPTF a while after they had joined the forum.

I would like to be able to see when they first posted their trader profile (join date of STPTF), and whewn they became FTS. I think that would make more people more comfort when it comes to trades.

For example:

Forum Name:Bassen
Join date (SPTF):
Became FTS (date):
Versions Played:
Mod Status:
HC/SC Status:
Latest update (date)
Probation Period Status:
Other Information:

Low Key

03-08-2008, 10:06

bassen

03-08-2008, 11:33

@Bob, I check even FTS traders history, though I have a tendency of being much more trusting with established posters on the forums. I am not going to check the entire trde history of a poster that's been around from 2003 and has thousands of posts. I'll jsut check the possible item history from fingerprints.

One thing that makes me decline trading these days are posters that have nothing but trade posts and maybe an introduction, but nothing on the other forums. Say somebody with 15 trades, 3 moths and 47 posts that are all from the FTS is going to ring some alarm bells with me. It tells the person doesnt care about the community at any level and just wants to trade. That kind of people are in my opinion a threat for taint, etc.

@Bassen, 6 months would be way too much. With that kind of a waiting time to get to FTS, there would be little of intrest in traders staying trading for the whole time. 6 months of active play already makes you prety wealthy, making NTPP fairly useless, yet FTS trades still out of reach. 3 months seems just fine.

That's exactly what I mean. Only the real serious players would stay that long and eventually get out of NTTP and become FTS.

After 6 months you surely have many items but probably not so many high TC's which would make the desire to become FTS even greater than before, for the serious players of course. And if you had many high TC's you could more easy get other high TC's. Both ways are very desireable for NTTP's.

I doubt anyone who's not serious would wait for 6 months.

skiffcz

03-08-2008, 13:13

Well ... I have a good/bad message for you MODs. You are not the only one lazy. Lets face it - being happy is just another form of payment for your items. So if you sit on a 90%grail/20 Guardians and/or dont take this game *that much* seriously or just have different value system, the simpliest thing you can to is to sold it to someone for free (read: good feeling). Why bother with trading it? For people playing D2 for a really long time, good feeling is the ultimate payment. You say, that in trade there are two sides benefiting from it, contra giveaway, where only one side is. And that, of course, is not true. If you start to look at "happiness from being able to help/happiness from not being forced to sell that 190+ buriza to charsi" as an market comodity, it will start to make whole new league of sense.

BTW: As for me, I play D2 for a long time now (even though Im new to the forums) and have the same problem. Ive never used or needed godly runewords/elite uniques to beat and enjoy the game, and never really saved my stuff between restarts. Why would I? I can get 400+ MF blizz to hell meph in saturday and get most of my target equipment for basically any character on sunday. Did it so many times I cant even remember. I dont do grail either. So I dont plan to trade, if anything, it will be helping out people who (will trust me, ofc) and dont enjoy playing meph/pindle/countess hunting characters (so runes up to UM and most unique excep/low elites are more than water to them and would have had much more trouble obtaining them than me)

TedDeeBoy

03-08-2008, 13:39

This topic has evolved in just two days, it took over a hour to read it.

Bob I self regulate and check profiles and some trades , but if someone has had several trades and traded with another member with several trades is boils down to the trust of that member and the mods managing the SPTF and the forums as they deal with the any problems.

Merlin The Wizzard

03-08-2008, 16:58

I am longwinded when it comes to replies, and always get lost in my own words. (Two theories: Either I am too smart for my own good, and think extensively over each proposition, in turn finding new interesting ideas to dwell on, or I am too stupid to complete one thought before the next pops into my mind. I'm inclined to believe the latter).

So instead of giving a lengthy explanation on how I feel on this thread (I think it's a great subject btw.), or how I am no trader, I'll just launch a few suggestions

- Some say it's hard to work according to a value system. Well, make it a broad range spectrum of items tradeable for others. Let's say 5 categories, ranging from low lvl to highest lvl items. Once it's established, traders are free to specify whether they are willing to trade against items in their own bracket, or say 3 more sought after items of a lower bracket.

- A 'fair' trade should always get priority. Even if a trade is proposed after it is practically donated, the trade should take priority. The person trading against base item value should take a step down in that case.

- Personalize quest. If it turns out someone is out there trying to score a free 'uber item', and a rich trader feels inclined to give one, he could always use one of his profiles (or that of a trusted other player) to personalize the item and then give it. That should make everyone happy. The one asking for a free great item gets it, the guy giving it can feel good about himself, and the item, personalized and all, is essentially worhtless in the community from then onwards.

- Players who feel like giving away their stashes because they are retiring or something, shouldn't throw it into the community. Better is to donate them to other traders or to some sort of tournament item bank.

- In the current system, there seems to be a set of trusted traders. The only way to see how potential new traders fit in, is by having them interact for a while on a trial basis. So I'd say that if people complete at least 1 trade with positive feedback and are active in the trade forum for a month or so, they are out of trial.

Greebo

03-08-2008, 19:28

When I trade with someone I mostly look at the time they have been members since I belive time is more important than the number of trades.

Agreed. I just look at the date of the first feedback. And if you want to know when they became FTS, well, add 90 days to that, or look at the date of 16th feedback. But perhaps it would be indeed useful to have all this information in one place.

So my proposal is:
6 months
15 trades if you play SC
8 trades if you play HC
15 trades if you play both

The problem with minimal # of trades is that it makes 1PGem trades so much more beneficial to NTPP traders... I mean, you get an item almost free, and you get a trade to count towards the limit. From a trusted member of community, so it looks good on your trader page, too. I've done it myself, unfortunately (more on the giving end than the receiving end, but that doesn't matter).

The one unwelcome side effect of the minimum # trades rule is that it creates movement of low-level items which wouldn't be happening otherwise, just so that people get their 15 trades. I don't like that.

I love what maxgerin is doing (neutral feedback) in such situations. I think it would be great if all the 'richer' people applied the same policy to undervalued trades. And if we don't abolish 1PGem trades, perhaps let's make it a rule (or a guideline, whatever) that feedback for such trades starts with '[1Pgem Trade] (rest of description)', or '[Undervalued Trade]'. In the trade thread the buyer should be warned that he/she will receive that kind of neutral feedback. So the offer post could look something like that:

"[1PGem Trade], not applicable towards NTPP threshold

You can have the following [1.12a SC RRM/RWM] for a PGem: (readout)"

And only trades which weren't offered as undervalued would count towards the trade limit. All that this requires is a bit more effort from the rich members. In return we should get a community which we can trust a little better.

That's exactly what I mean. Only the real serious players would stay that long and eventually get out of NTTP and become FTS.

I don't agree that the point of the trading system is to have only very serious players be able to trade expensive items. Also, I think it would just make people give away more expensive items in Giveaways, as the only possibility to help fairly rich NTPP players. I don't think that's a good effect, you might disagree.

Another option would be introducing third, 'rich tier', the only people allowed to trade
(1) [TC87 uniques] (TC87 sets are fine in the 'new' FTS),
(2) [High Runes] and items involving them, Vex+ or so, maybe even Ohm+

So we would have NTPP, FTS, TM (Trusted Members).

To become a Trusted Member, all other (self-described as active) Trusted Members would have to agree to that (or like 75%-90% of them or something). Time limit of 6 months activity could apply here.

This may seem pointless at first, but the main effect it has is psychological. People wouldn't want to earn 15 trades as soon as possible. They would have to seek approval and trust of the community if they wanted to trade the uber-stuff.

- Personalize quest. If it turns out someone is out there trying to score a free 'uber item', and a rich trader feels inclined to give one, he could always use one of his profiles (or that of a trusted other player) to personalize the item and then give it. That should make everyone happy. The one asking for a free great item gets it, the guy giving it can feel good about himself, and the item, personalized and all, is essentially worhtless in the community from then onwards.

I love this idea. It's great. :worship:

- Players who feel like giving away their stashes because they are retiring or something, shouldn't throw it into the community. Better is to donate them to other traders or to some sort of tournament item bank.

Another great idea.

--Greebo

skiffcz

03-08-2008, 20:07

- Players who feel like giving away their stashes because they are retiring or something, shouldn't throw it into the community. Better is to donate them ..... or to some sort of tournament item bank.

I absolutely agree. Lot of tournaments are without any prize (except the challenge) and that is weak. This can make them much more strong! :thumbup:

xALT

04-08-2008, 01:02

- Personalize quest. If it turns out someone is out there trying to score a free 'uber item', and a rich trader feels inclined to give one, he could always use one of his profiles (or that of a trusted other player) to personalize the item and then give it. That should make everyone happy. The one asking for a free great item gets it, the guy giving it can feel good about himself, and the item, personalized and all, is essentially worhtless in the community from then onwards.

I love this idea. It's great. :worship:

You mean like this?

Lothric's Arkaine's Valor
Balrog Skin
Defense: 1554
Required Strength: 165
Required Level: 85
Indestructible
Item Version: Expansion
Item Level: 87
Fingerprint: 0x1a0b44e2
+38 to Life
+200% Enhanced Defense
Fire Resist +50%
30% Faster Hit Recovery
+2 to All Skill Levels
+2 to Life (Based on Character Level)
+2 to Vitality (Based on Character Level)
Socketed (1: 1 used)I've made it myself, not the original owner, by the way.

Asmodeous

04-08-2008, 04:39

Something I've become curious about as this thread has developed:

@FTS traders-

How important is a new FTS's history in your decision to trade with them?

If you see someone made 15 token pgem trades, would you trade FTS items with them or not based on this trade history?

I hesitate to ask this next question, as your answer may influence other's actions: What is/are your criteria for deciding if you will trade your high value items with a new FTS person, if not the 15 NTPP trades?

Originally I avoided trading with NTPP players, but sometime ago I changed and now pretty much trade with anybody nowadays.
The reason for that comes back to the token pgem trades. Even a fresh player should be able to find/afford a dozen pgems so the chance they are haxxed/duped is very low.
But in any case. I have my own methods of determining who is suspect or not. Any items I receive from NTPP or people I don't trust completely, go into a quarantine stash. These items stay in there for a certain amount of time depending on circumstances/need.
This way when a trader is found out to be "bad" a couple of months later, I simply delete the item recieved from them out of my quarantine stash, easy as.
Only items that I receive from those I trust are used immediately. My own list of elite traders similar to that suggested earlier in this thread, A third tier above FTS similar to "trusted members" suggested by Greebo.
Entry to this "list of elite traders" is circumstantial. I have my own methods to determining who can be trusted which is based on my own rules and regs.

If there was a third tier of trader level above FTS, it would depend on how that rating is earnt. Simply basing it on time/post count/number of trades would not count to me imho. I have seen (many years ago) people who have been prominent members of forums such as this, trading items and where "trusted" by many of the other members and it took that long before they made a mistake hacking an item and passing it on.

Damnatorius

04-08-2008, 08:07

Personalization of the (valuable) freebies is a good idea I'd say, either by the one that sends it or the one that receives it. That would make them less likely to devaluate the item in question, as long as it goes to someone who couldn't afford one anyway.

I don't think putting rules on pgem token trades is really a good idea, since values of items are relative. If somebody actually believes an item is worth 1 pgem then why stop that trade from happening.Better would be if the ones doing those trades would not offer the item for 1pgem because they understand how it would affect others, after this thread surely a lot of them will know this now. Besides, if 1pgem isn't allowed, what's to stop from the token becoming 2 pgems? Or 3? or whatever arbitrary number isn't allowed + 1.

OT:
May I ask why people would play single player, then 'hack' or dupe or whatever they do their items and bother to trade? What's the point in trading if you make your items anyway?

Greebo

04-08-2008, 08:45

I don't think putting rules on pgem token trades is really a good idea, since values of items are relative. If somebody actually believes an item is worth 1 pgem then why stop that trade from happening.Better would be if the ones doing those trades would not offer the item for 1pgem because they understand how it would affect others, after this thread surely a lot of them will know this now. Besides, if 1pgem isn't allowed, what's to stop from the token becoming 2 pgems? Or 3? or whatever arbitrary number isn't allowed + 1.

Your argument with 2/3 pgems instead of 1 is absolutely valid. I think I mentioned it in one of my earlier posts, too. I don't think setting minimal prices or forbidding to make 1pgem trades are good ideas.

But right now the situations is as follows:
- NTPP traders need trades to become FTS. 1PGem trades make perfect sense to them. They get good items for almost free, and they receive positive feedback.
- FTS traders who want to help people who started playing recently are happy to help and consider the 1PGem trades a good deed.

I mean, from the greedy, unsocial point of view, the right solution is to pretend to be poor, get plenty of good items for ~20 PGems, become FTS and try to trade 'good stuff'.

The point is: I don't think the whole NTPP/FTS system is working the way the creators intended it to work at the moment. And I think the 1PGem trades, or more precisely, the fact that they count towards FTS, are responsible for this to large extent.

--Greebo

BobTheWarrior

04-08-2008, 15:13

If 1 pgem or token item trades are considered neutral and do not count towards NTPP, how is this any different than a way to circumvent the no giveaways in the first 24 hours rule?

The point is: I don't think the whole NTPP/FTS system is working the way the creators intended it to work at the moment. And I think the 1PGem trades, or more precisely, the fact that they count towards FTS, are responsible for this to large extent.

I think you’re right in that the NTPP/FTS isn’t working as intended, and my interpretation of the NTPP status is to establish that the person trading is a trustworthy individual and a good fit for the community.

If we were to write a ‘help wanted’ ad for a good FTS trader, it would probably look something like “Wanted: Ethical, Enthusiastic Diablo 2 player for valuable item trades”. I don’t know of any way we can write rules better than the ones we have to establish, based on forum posts, that a person meets these criteria.

It comes down to the two parties involved, the FTS and the NTPP, to trust each other and to follow the norms of the community. We as a community can write rules or make guidelines to help NTPP’ers establish themselves and help themselves gain the trust of others, but if the NTPP isn’t willing to show that they’re a good fit for the community, it becomes the responsibility of the community to self-police and not trade with that individual.

I agree that token item trades are a problem, as it would seem that established traders need to be willing to trust someone new to the point of risking using the items they receive from the new player. Token items can easily be discarded with no risk to the established traders’ wealth or feelings. If a trade is made to someone who turns out to not be a good fit for the community and items traded from this person need to be removed, the established player can simply delete the stash/item with little care/concern.

Trust could be established by taking a risk and trading items from new members of the community. Token item trades don’t do this, thereby causing harm to the NTPP trader (by doing nothing to establish trust) and to the FTS or other established community traders (by allowing higher risk into the trade pool).

As a community we need to determine a way to get new members of the trade community trusted to a point where we are willing to accept the risk of using the items we receive from new members in our games, accepting the risk that if we are wrong, we will risk losing other items/characters as a result. Our job as the established trading community will be to minimize this risk by ensuring we are trading with trustworthy individuals.

Am I making any sense? Did I go OT? Is this topic consuming too much of my time/thoughts? Is this a rhetorical question?