A bit about everything

[Ashenvale Phoenix]

As the heat has almost entirely died out, I decided to share a couple of
thoughts that have been running through my mind lately. Maybe some of these things were done to death already but, nevertheless, I wanted to express my stance on things and see what people think, just for the sake of it.

Thoughts & Ideas

I Inventory – Now, I know that what we saw is by no means set in
stone and it can change a dozen times but, after all, we are here to discuss. This new inventory looks like one of the “solutions-inspired-by-other-games”,
that we heard will happen. It has one obvious merit: it will allow to keep more items without thinking about positioning it in the backpack to let other things fit. Personally, I consider myself a good packrat and sometimes I even enjoyed juggling stuff around the backpack. But here are also two drawbacks that I see here. One: due to small icons there will be no place for awe inspiring graphics for unique items. No nice looking items as Tyrael’s Might or Kinemil’s Awl, I’m afraid. Two: if the small icons would really be the issue, there’s always the risk that items will lack distinctiveness and can be easily confused. Hopefully it won’t happen.

II Armor and Casters – As a RPG player (and I mean real Pen&Paper RPG, not cRPG) I have no problems with caster-type characters running around in robes, but I found it very fun to see the Sorceress slinging spells while wearing heavy armor. If one of the “yet-to-be-announced” characters will be a pure caster (hmmm, maybe some sort of Vizjerei from days of yore?) I would really like to see some great heavy armor designs, even if the lower-end armor pieces will present themselves as robes and such.

III Multi/Solo – Co-op mode is said to be the main focus of this part of Diablo which will make many people very happy, I guess. I’m more of a solo player so I’m glad that the developers made it clear that this will not be a MMO, no raid bosses and such. Beating the toughest parts, all by yourself is great fun, so I can only cross my fingers and hope that solo won’t be worse than multi, though I shouldn’t be worried. The developers know what they’re doing.

IV As for the PK debate – I have no real experience with PvP combat to begin with, so I’m not in a position to say what’s wrong and what’s right, but maybe making both players declare hostilities before combat is possible would protect those who only want to kill monsters and do quests? And don’t yell that it’s restrictive because I know that, it’s just an idea.

V Meeting old friends from Diablo I – I think that it’s a great idea to put old characters back in. In my opinion the biggest chance for a comeback has Adria, but remember that we will revisit the Tristram Cathedral (I can hardly wait) so maybe we will meet the tormented spirit of Archbishop Lazarus still haunting the undergrounds or a twisted version of Prince Albrecht?

VI About Health Orbs and Potions – I guess I grew fond of the sight of a belt with potions in it, and that’s why I don’t like the thought of being reliant on something that might, or might not drop. Somewhere I read that potions will remain, but with a cooldown. If that cooldown would be ten or fifteen seconds then that’s fine, not much would change for me, as I rarely had to drink potions faster. But if the cooldown would be longer, say, two minutes (sounds familiar?) than the whole system instead of making the game even more fast-paced would slow it down. Why is that? Well, after drinking a potion many players, especially hardcore I imagine, would need to wait until the timer reaches zero, so in case things go bad in the next fight they have something to keep them alive and kicking. The second factor are the boss fights. Obviously the boss won’t drop an Orb mid-fight so you will have to use potions if you get hit badly. I’m really curious where it will go.

VII Ground zero i.e. wreaking havoc with Telekinesis – Let’s face it, that spell was rarely used, apparently not without a reason. Now, we saw how does the physics system work so maybe it’s time to see Telekinesis put to good use. Large blasts of kinetic energy that send enemies flying across the screen would be fun, that’s for sure. I’m also wondering if we will see any spells from the first Diablo. Seeing how big hordes of monsters will be our biggest concern this time around, memories of a great spell, that would be even better now, come to mind. I wonder if anybody thought about implementing Flame Wave (hint hint).

VIII Everything on bodies – When I saw the gameplay video for the first time over a week ago (pretty late, I know) I noticed the bodies disappearing and I thought that it’s probably for performance enhancing purposes, started getting accustomed to this fact and prepared to mourn the possible demise of the Necromancer. As for the Witch Doctor, I prefer the crypt-dwelling image of the Necromancer than the shamanistic attire of the Witch Doctor. Don’t get me wrong, I’m slowly getting used to the Witch Doctor, which can be an interesting character in its own right (though he seriously has some problems with keeping straight, heheh). Now the whole bodies thing is being addressed so it’s possible that they’ll be kept, and I can see three ways out of this. One: the bodies will be kept indefinitely but only as decoration, meaning that no physics for them. Not likely to be the case, seeing how the system is implemented in everything. Two: they’ll be kept for a moderate amount of time under normal laws. If so, then corpse-based skills are again possible, you’d have to use them fast, though. Three: if keeping dozens of bodies at the same time would hit the performance, maybe keep around ten or twenty corpses of last slain enemies. This way you’d have the material for skills without worrying about overburdening the system. Hence the Necromancer is still possible.

IX Images and graphics i.e. the heated debate – I bet you could see that coming, but this post wouldn’t be complete without this. Again, both groups have their arguments and one group won’t convince the other no matter what. Is the new look similar to what we’ve seen elsewhere, I do not know, but I know one thing, fanaticism is not a good thing. There’d been already enough insults because of this. In Diablo II Act IV was my favourite due to the looks and relatively higher difficulty and Diablo I was pretty consistent it its “dark dungeon” image (barring the caves, anyway) so I wouldn’t mind seeing something similar but that doesn’t mean that everything has to look that way. Have trust for the artists, it’s their job to find the golden mean in all of this, and they probably will. So maybe some sort of consensus, vivid, colourful wilderness and dark and gloomy dungeons?

It’s getting a bit lengthy so that’ll be it.

Hoping that this will reach as many sensible people as it can, not only gamers
-- Author

[visom]

As the heat has almost entirely died out, I decided to share a couple of
thoughts that have been running through my mind lately. Maybe some of these things were done to death already but, nevertheless, I wanted to express my stance on things and see what people think, just for the sake of it.

Thoughts & Ideas

I Inventory – Now, I know that what we saw is by no means set in
stone and it can change a dozen times but, after all, we are here to discuss. This new inventory looks like one of the “solutions-inspired-by-other-games”,
that we heard will happen. It has one obvious merit: it will allow to keep more items without thinking about positioning it in the backpack to let other things fit. Personally, I consider myself a good packrat and sometimes I even enjoyed juggling stuff around the backpack. But here are also two drawbacks that I see here. One: due to small icons there will be no place for awe inspiring graphics for unique items. No nice looking items as Tyrael’s Might or Kinemil’s Awl, I’m afraid. Two: if the small icons would really be the issue, there’s always the risk that items will lack distinctiveness and can be easily confused. Hopefully it won’t happen.
I agree here, I don't like the new inventory system, sure its more convenient but its an unwanted convenience, I guess its great for unorganized/little kids/lazy people.

II Armor and Casters – As a RPG player (and I mean real Pen&Paper RPG, not cRPG) I have no problems with caster-type characters running around in robes, but I found it very fun to see the Sorceress slinging spells while wearing heavy armor. If one of the “yet-to-be-announced” characters will be a pure caster (hmmm, maybe some sort of Vizjerei from days of yore?) I would really like to see some great heavy armor designs, even if the lower-end armor pieces will present themselves as robes and such.

III Multi/Solo – Co-op mode is said to be the main focus of this part of Diablo which will make many people very happy, I guess. I’m more of a solo player so I’m glad that the developers made it clear that this will not be a MMO, no raid bosses and such. Beating the toughest parts, all by yourself is great fun, so I can only cross my fingers and hope that solo won’t be worse than multi, though I shouldn’t be worried. The developers know what they’re doing.
yea d3 is said to have single player as well. besides d1 and d2 has an option for single player, it'll seem stupid for d3 to not have it. Normally I like to play single player first to get the story, then multiplayer after for fun.

IV As for the PK debate – I have no real experience with PvP combat to begin with, so I’m not in a position to say what’s wrong and what’s right, but maybe making both players declare hostilities before combat is possible would protect those who only want to kill monsters and do quests? And don’t yell that it’s restrictive because I know that, it’s just an idea.
I don't like PK since you never know how can come in to kill you. Unless they do something to limit the PK level difference to allow you a chance of surviving.

V Meeting old friends from Diablo I – I think that it’s a great idea to put old characters back in. In my opinion the biggest chance for a comeback has Adria, but remember that we will revisit the Tristram Cathedral (I can hardly wait) so maybe we will meet the tormented spirit of Archbishop Lazarus still haunting the undergrounds or a twisted version of Prince Albrecht?

VI About Health Orbs and Potions – I guess I grew fond of the sight of a belt with potions in it, and that’s why I don’t like the thought of being reliant on something that might, or might not drop. Somewhere I read that potions will remain, but with a cooldown. If that cooldown would be ten or fifteen seconds then that’s fine, not much would change for me, as I rarely had to drink potions faster. But if the cooldown would be longer, say, two minutes (sounds familiar?) than the whole system instead of making the game even more fast-paced would slow it down. Why is that? Well, after drinking a potion many players, especially hardcore I imagine, would need to wait until the timer reaches zero, so in case things go bad in the next fight they have something to keep them alive and kicking. The second factor are the boss fights. Obviously the boss won’t drop an Orb mid-fight so you will have to use potions if you get hit badly. I’m really curious where it will go.
I like the health orbs and potion cool down, since in D2 as long as you have a TP and a belt full of potions you'll hardly find yourself dead. Besides I don't think health orbs are that rare since the barb found like 3 of them while fighting the ghouls at the beginning. As for the boss part, I also don't mind if the boss doesn't drop health orbs, since I want boss fights to be challenging, besides in the video the boss gives many oppurtunities to avoid attacks and doesn't just randomly unleashes it (like that of D2).

VII Ground zero i.e. wreaking havoc with Telekinesis – Let’s face it, that spell was rarely used, apparently not without a reason. Now, we saw how does the physics system work so maybe it’s time to see Telekinesis put to good use. Large blasts of kinetic energy that send enemies flying across the screen would be fun, that’s for sure. I’m also wondering if we will see any spells from the first Diablo. Seeing how big hordes of monsters will be our biggest concern this time around, memories of a great spell, that would be even better now, come to mind. I wonder if anybody thought about implementing Flame Wave (hint hint).

VIII Everything on bodies – When I saw the gameplay video for the first time over a week ago (pretty late, I know) I noticed the bodies disappearing and I thought that it’s probably for performance enhancing purposes, started getting accustomed to this fact and prepared to mourn the possible demise of the Necromancer. As for the Witch Doctor, I prefer the crypt-dwelling image of the Necromancer than the shamanistic attire of the Witch Doctor. Don’t get me wrong, I’m slowly getting used to the Witch Doctor, which can be an interesting character in its own right (though he seriously has some problems with keeping straight, heheh). Now the whole bodies thing is being addressed so it’s possible that they’ll be kept, and I can see three ways out of this. One: the bodies will be kept indefinitely but only as decoration, meaning that no physics for them. Not likely to be the case, seeing how the system is implemented in everything. Two: they’ll be kept for a moderate amount of time under normal laws. If so, then corpse-based skills are again possible, you’d have to use them fast, though. Three: if keeping dozens of bodies at the same time would hit the performance, maybe keep around ten or twenty corpses of last slain enemies. This way you’d have the material for skills without worrying about overburdening the system. Hence the Necromancer is still possible.
Yeah I don't think bodies disappearing should be much of a problem. It still gives you plenty of time to summon (assuming theres a necro in the game). I don't want bodies to last forever so they can be used as a "corpse bank". The only reason why summoners might want bodies around permantly is to constantly summon minions, which is the case if the necro is too weak to fight the monsters. So temporary corpse is a great way to make summons fight appropriate monsters for their level.

IX Images and graphics i.e. the heated debate – I bet you could see that coming, but this post wouldn’t be complete without this. Again, both groups have their arguments and one group won’t convince the other no matter what. Is the new look similar to what we’ve seen elsewhere, I do not know, but I know one thing, fanaticism is not a good thing. There’d been already enough insults because of this. In Diablo II Act IV was my favourite due to the looks and relatively higher difficulty and Diablo I was pretty consistent it its “dark dungeon” image (barring the caves, anyway) so I wouldn’t mind seeing something similar but that doesn’t mean that everything has to look that way. Have trust for the artists, it’s their job to find the golden mean in all of this, and they probably will. So maybe some sort of consensus, vivid, colourful wilderness and dark and gloomy dungeons?
I don't mind the image, it'll be great to have a beautiful scenery if the area is a wilderness, hopefully the tombs or dungeons would look a bit creepier so there would be perfect balance that makes sense.

It’s getting a bit lengthy so that’ll be it.

Hoping that this will reach as many sensible people as it can, not only gamers
-- Author

read bolded words

[Gamekk]

Thoughts & Ideas

I Inventory – I'm a bit paranoid from seeing anything from WoW going into Diablo, but this idea isn't scarying me too much. It just makes things more simple, since I often wished in DII that I could just turn a 2X4 of the side to make a 4X2 and make room for it in my inventory, but no luck. I had to quickly open the inventory and re-click the item to get it suspended in the air, unabled to move, and just leaving us the choice to leave the game. Hope with wont happen again :P

II Armor and Casters – I'm not into toon porn or anything, but I think Sorces from DII are just better with light armor on. I just liked the feeling and looking of a sorc or necro wielding a simple dagger and light armors, it made them more... casters ! :D

III Multi/Solo – The possibility to play Solo In the Diablo series is pretty much the only thing that keeps me there. I don't like finding teams. I don't like to plan attacks. And I hit my head on the keyboard everytime someone mentions "healer" or "tanker".

IV As for the PK debate – It's pretty obvious that they're gonna get rid of the aggressive and griefy unstable PvP system already in place. I personally think it will be a loss since it was an interesting part of the time before, making it feel more like in real life, where you could settle disputes and kick your opponents as hard as you can as long as they didn't see you coming ;) Even though there are bad sides to an "agressive" PvP system, I could always find a way to stay alive (mostly in HC), I got PKed like once or twice when I was young and naive, but now it's not likely to happen.

V Meeting old friends from Diablo I – I already know that Adria will be in the game. In fact, I have a German friend who secretly works at Blizzard and... nah nvm I just KNOW it :P

VI About Health Orbs and Potions – It just helps to keep the game to go on and on. I use to be a fast action player (others often call me crazy for tossing myself everywhere), but I've played the game so often I know every moves that mobs can pull and what to do, so I know what I'm doing and basically, I run into monsters, drink like 1 potion every 2 seconds and then I get back to town everytime I empty my belt. So basically, I just slay monsters faster, but it will drop more orbs so it will be good for any kind of player to go on and on forever.

VII Ground zero i.e. wreaking havoc with Telekinesis – I use Telekinesis
mainly for the other reason this spell was probably set lol. It's just used to reach stash farther (and sometimes causing game crash), to click on WP farther (but not too far away otherwise the game won't get it) and to re-enter town portals faster (only works in one way... CURIOUS?). Nah, this will rock.

VIII Everything on bodies – Well Bashiok (from Blizz.) already said plenty of stuff about that. I'm sure they'll work it out for the final version of the game and it won't be trouble no more.

IX Images and graphics i.e. the heated debate – Well, I prefer a Gothic look but I hate to complain. And people... who complain. So far, it's not dramatic beside the huge shoulderpads... Everything else is just crap to make people talk about something, like "OMG so much light outside, compare it to the level 12 of DI!!!" (worst comparison ever). Just go to Act 2 and turn gamma off and close the lights, you'll become blind in like fifteen minutes. Anyways, DIII's going to be badass!



Hoping that this will reach as many sensible people as it can, not only gamers

As if someone with a life would read that :P Take care!

[Telzen]

Just something quick. They have not said potions would have a cool down. The guy said that they may have a cool down or may not, may heal instantly or may not, basicily he said they hadn't decided how they were going to implement them yet.

[Apocalypse]

about the inventory, to me it looked like the inventory was smaller, but there was alot of blank spaces also. i think there was 12 slots in the inventory? maybe room for 30 or 40 though? do you think the inventory will increase based on level or some other means or am i just missing something that has been said 50 times already?

[stillman]

I just want to point out that there are all kinds of potential solutions to the problem of not being able to see your items in their huge full glory with the new inventory system.

All they would have to do is increase the size of the icons which hold each item. Then, there could be a scroll down so you can view the items in icons that won't fit in the inventory screen when you really are carrying a lot. Maybe you can even have an option to adjust how big you want the icons to appear. You can make the icons small like in the demo, and you could then see everything you have at once. Or, you could adjust the icon size to huge so you can see the big glamorous items, but you have to scroll down a bit to see the rest of them.

Alternatively, they could keep the icons really small as we see in the demo, but when you hover your mouse pointer over, a bigger window pops up showing an enlarged picture of the item beside it.

And lets not forget, all you have to do is equip the gear and not only do you see it in perfect large or small proportion, it is even animated.

Heck, maybe you could go to Cain and have him actually ramble on and on about an item he's just id'd as the item rotates slowly in a huge display window.

I like the new inventory set up. I think seeing the old d2 grid of 40 squares was too mathy and full of problems. For instance, why do 6 gems take up the same space as full plate armor?

[Ashenvale Phoenix]

@Visom - I agree that, so far, if you know what you're doing it's easy to survive. That's why Diablo I was fun, if you got cornered by a couple of death knights you had a lot of trouble, heh. As for the Necromancer/bodies thing, we will see where it takes us. There's a ton of possibilities.

@Gamekk -
II Yeah, the thousands of people who'll play female characters just to dress them how they like. Still, a bit of an "armour-ish" look would be nice.
III Same with me, really.
V If you say so, heh. And I talked to Adria to ask if that's true, she said something about searching answers (Bad, baaaad joke).
VI I never was trigger happy with potions but still, I liked them.
And I have a life...well, sort of... :P

@Telzen - Yeah, I know a lot can change. We'll see.

@Apocalypse - I think the inventory could be just unfinished, or maybe we will have to buy additional space. Ugh, better not.

@Stillman - A couple of interesting ideas.
I just want to point out that there are all kinds of potential solutions to the problem of not being able to see your items in their huge full glory with the new inventory system.

All they would have to do is increase the size of the icons which hold each item. Then, there could be a scroll down so you can view the items in icons that won't fit in the inventory screen when you really are carrying a lot. Maybe you can even have an option to adjust how big you want the icons to appear. You can make the icons small like in the demo, and you could then see everything you have at once. Or, you could adjust the icon size to huge so you can see the big glamorous items, but you have to scroll down a bit to see the rest of them. I wouldn't like the scrolling idea, not the same for me.

Alternatively, they could keep the icons really small as we see in the demo, but when you hover your mouse pointer over, a bigger window pops up showing an enlarged picture of the item beside it. I could go with that.

And lets not forget, all you have to do is equip the gear and not only do you see it in perfect large or small proportion, it is even animated. Not every item you can wear, requirements, class restrictions.

Heck, maybe you could go to Cain and have him actually ramble on and on about an item he's just id'd as the item rotates slowly in a huge display window. That made me laugh, would be fun. I can imagine Cain talking like some sort of car salesman: "Here we have a new model of the Winged Helm, with a rear mirror attached".

I like the new inventory set up. I think seeing the old d2 grid of 40 squares was too mathy and full of problems. For instance, why do 6 gems take up the same space as full plate armor? Agreed about the gems but now a pair of gloves would take as much space as a set of armor.

[SlechtWeerBeer]

Agreed about the gems but now a pair of gloves would take as much space as a set of armor.

Go figure, a Helmet, which sits on your skull (generally), takes 4 times as much place as the Skull itself.

[andreasdr]

IV As for the PK debate – I have no real experience with PvP combat to begin with, so I’m not in a position to say what’s wrong and what’s right, but maybe making both players declare hostilities before combat is possible would protect those who only want to kill monsters and do quests? And don’t yell that it’s restrictive because I know that, it’s just an idea.

I always play in password protected games in D2, alone or with friends, so I don't know much about PK. Could someone please enlighten me on the disadvantages of the above suggestion (which I think is very good)? What is the point of having a system where people who are out to fight monsters can't decide whether they want to risk being attacked by other players? Realism?
Isn't the PK-feature only intended for dueling? And if so, why isn't a system of mutual hostility declarations, as suggested above, already in place? Hasn't it been conceived of so far by Blizzard, or what? :)

[ciphernemo]

I Inventory – I agree 100%. The differently-shaped items added a unique and dynamic feel to Diablo. Blizzard should stick to this model as it is one in which they've seen many successes. Keep Diablo unique, and keep that puzzle-like inventory. If it's really a big deal for noobs, provide an option to turn on some decent AI to auto-arrange it to get everything to fit.

II Armor and Casters – I think Diablo 1 had what I would consider a perfect mix. The top level armor pieces for a caster class would look cool, look like sturdy armor, but be easily distinguished from full armor of a melee class.

III Multi/Solo – I agree. I play the Diablo series mostly for single player. I might try battle.net, etc., but my focus is single player. If I wanted multi-player, I'd focus on an MMORPG, like I currently do with LOTRO.

IV As for the PK debate – I'm all for neutering this problem completely. The only way people should be able to do PvP is to both agree to it. No lame ganking via hacks or bugs, please. Blizzard should focus on this, even hire a gamer and a hacker to try to break their own system, so that they can give us a polished product after may be the first or second patch.

V Meeting old friends from Diablo I – *shrug* I'm much more willing to let Blizzard surprise us with this than to try to dictate who I'd like to see from previous episodes in the series. On that note, though, I think we can all do without lame characters like Atma, etc.

VI About Health Orbs and Potions – Ack, potions will a "cooldown" would be like turning D3 into WoW or most other MMORPGs. I hope Blizzard sticks with the time-honored 'life/mana only fills so fast' mentality. I'd rather have a steady stream of life/mana than short bursts with cooldowns. And as we've had in the past, please have high-level potions have insta-fill and no cooldown.

VII Ground zero i.e. wreaking havoc with Telekinesis – I have little opinion here, as I'd be happy to let Blizzard surprise us regarding spells. I'm totally going to avoid all of the strategy and talk about skills/spells for D3 once it's released. I'd rather be surprised when I try them myself.

VIII Everything on bodies – I'd rather see corpses lying around after slaying them, especially in single-player mode when graphics isn't an issue. I have no problem with my PC running super-high resolutions with high settings because of my two 8800GTX cards in SLI. So, I'd prefer to see them. If it's a performance issues, may be have it set as an option that is disabled by default? As for the necromancer, I'd rather have them be able to summon creatures than rely on corpses.

IX Images and graphics i.e. the heated debate – Yeah, a good balance of the two would be a welcome sight. Although I absolutely loved Diablo 1 with its all-dungeon feel, I know it won't please everything. Yet, the more dungeons you throw into a game, the happier I am. It's also easier on graphic loads for players with low-end systems.

[factotum]

I like the new inventory set up. I think seeing the old d2 grid of 40 squares was too mathy and full of problems. For instance, why do 6 gems take up the same space as full plate armor?

The new system doesn't solve that question, though--in fact, it arguably makes it worse, because presumably a gem takes up a single inventory slot, just the same as a sword, axe, pair of gloves, honkin' great suit of plate mail that would make Sauron feel inadequate, etc...

[slickr]

about the witch doctor, whats wrong with it?
I personally like the indo-amazon vibe it has. It makes him more unique, rather than seeing 5 shiny big bulky armor classes.

I think there needs to be more of the feathers, light armor, mystic type of classes.

[Ashenvale Phoenix]

@Andreasdr -
What is the point of having a system where people who are out to fight monsters can't decide whether they want to risk being attacked by other players? Realism?
I guess that what most people want is the freedom in attacking who you want. You don't like somebody? Kill him. Somebody called you names? Boot-to-the-head.

@Ciphernemo - Agreed almost entirely. The Sorceror armors looked good, that's right, but a few more steps in the "armor clad" direction wouldn't be bad.

@Slickr - It's not that there's something wrong, I guess I'm just not big into that shamanistic fluff. Also, if memory servers, I think that most of my time with the game I was playing a Necromancer and my first character was a Necromancer... even though I made him totally unplayable due to badly allocated skill points, it was fun. So it's probably just that from my side. My only hope is that the Witch Doctor's summoning tree will be great, if so then it will be my second character to play.

[andreasdr]

@Andreasdr -

I guess that what most people want is the freedom in attacking who you want. You don't like somebody? Kill him. Somebody called you names? Boot-to-the-head.I think it is unbelievable that Blizzard value that freedom above preventing PvMers from getting PKd against their will, especially since hardcore characters are at risk.

[Funkopotamus]

Armor and Casters – As a RPG player (and I mean real Pen&Paper RPG, not cRPG) I have no problems with caster-type characters running around in robes, but I found it very fun to see the Sorceress slinging spells while wearing heavy armor. If one of the “yet-to-be-announced” characters will be a pure caster (hmmm, maybe some sort of Vizjerei from days of yore?) I would really like to see some great heavy armor designs, even if the lower-end armor pieces will present themselves as robes and such.
Seconded.

both groups have their arguments and one group won’t convince the other no matter what.
Not completely true. Personally, the "20 years" point changed my mind about the color of the foliage. Maybe I'm not enough of a zealot though.

There’d been already enough insults because of this.
Seconded.

[Ashenvale Phoenix]

@Andreasdr - Well, there are people who like the "thrill" of it.

@Funkopotamus - What I meant is, that the group as a whole won't convince the second group. Looking at the new information about the art design, I presume that the whole mess is going to die pretty quickly, though.