Deep dungeons vs shallow dungeons

[Onehouse]

Anyone else ever thought about how D1 felt cool in the way you actually descended really deep into a dungeon compared to D2 where you just ran around above world in order to find a cave, pathway, ruin or dungeon with just a few floors?

My question is, what is cooler? Many different dungeons with few floors or one huge dungeon with many floors? Imagine taking every dungeon floor in D2 and simply stacking them ontop of eachother and create one mega huge dungeon. Imagine the feeling of beeing really deep down in a dungeon in the end. Would that add to immersion or would the removal of tha vast outdoor areas remove immersion as well? It could work easily with having the adventurers find stairs down to the next level and the optional dungeons could be simply like the poisoned lake in Diablo1. As you venture down you could in theory find other exits that leads to other towns and npc's to add to the immersion.

With the random dungeons it would be easy to simply give each dungeon 16 floors in D2. Would it make each dungeon better or more boring? Would each dungeon then feel more like how Diablo1 felt?

As we are going back to the Cathedral in D3. Will it be the same 16 floors or will it just be 4 floors that seems to be the norm in D2 for "end of act" dungeons. Honestly, a 4 floor Cathedral will make my cry =D

Thoughts on this? Deep or shallow?

[Telzen]

I think 16 is really over the top. I want there to be a lot of dungeons but it would be pretty cool if we got some deepers ones. Like some 7-9 floor dungeons.

[OverUsedChewToy]

The immersion comes from feeling that you're getting deeper down into the ground. D1 achieved this not with the number of levels (though perhaps that helped), but the steadily gloomier and more hellish tile sets as one "progressed".

Well, that's my hypothesis :scratchchin:

[SlechtWeerBeer]

I think 16 is really over the top. I want there to be a lot of dungeons but it would be pretty cool if we got some deepers ones. Like some 7-9 floor dungeons.

Agreed. :yes:

By having huge 16 level dungeons under each area in D II, you'll not see many people going into them cause it takes longer to go through that dungeon than through the whole of Act I.

[Grawner]

The immersion comes from feeling that you're getting deeper down into the ground. D1 achieved this not with the number of levels (though perhaps that helped), but the steadily gloomier and more hellish tile sets as one "progressed".

Well, that's my hypothesis :scratchchin:

it became darker, more cave-like and therefore more dangerous, yeah. not because of the amount of levels. that's just a number, the schenographic has to support the cave-level as well.

[stillman]

The problem is, with sissy baby tp, dungeons are literally 2 steps away from town even if you are 1000 levels below the ground.

In D1, the game had to load up the town data which took some time. This acted as a slight deterant so you really did feel a bit trapped down there, not wanting to waste time going back to town.

Basicall, I'm saying Blizzard needs to stop bottle feeding palyers and bending to the desires of all the cry baby players who want the game to be made easy. If they make the game for babies, it will lose the "effects" such as being trapped and so on.

[Raynor]

it became darker, more cave-like and therefore more dangerous, yeah. not because of the amount of levels. that's just a number, the schenographic has to support the cave-level as well.

QTF.


The problem is, with sissy baby tp, dungeons are literally 2 steps away from town even if you are 1000 levels below the ground.

In D1, the game had to load up the town data which took some time. This acted as a slight deterant so you really did feel a bit trapped down there, not wanting to waste time going back to town.

Basicall, I'm saying Blizzard needs to stop bottle feeding palyers and bending to the desires of all the cry baby players who want the game to be made easy. If they make the game for babies, it will lose the "effects" such as being trapped and so on.

If it's too hard for the average gamer, it's not going to make money.

It also removed the need to walk for 5 minutes to get back into town, or a waygate. (Which walking 10 minutes back and fourth from town to where you were at is pad lengthening the game.)

[Kalyptein]

Forgetting that the whole of D1 was just those 16 levels. Imagine if the Flayer Dungeon/Halls of the Dead etc. took longer to clear than D1.

[Apocalypse]

The problem is, with sissy baby tp, dungeons are literally 2 steps away from town even if you are 1000 levels below the ground.

In D1, the game had to load up the town data which took some time. This acted as a slight deterant so you really did feel a bit trapped down there, not wanting to waste time going back to town.

Basicall, I'm saying Blizzard needs to stop bottle feeding palyers and bending to the desires of all the cry baby players who want the game to be made easy. If they make the game for babies, it will lose the "effects" such as being trapped and so on.

if you removed tp from the game it would be a huge bomb. there are alot of things bliz can do to make the game harder or more dangerous or whatever, but getting rid of the one element that keeps the game fast would be a very bad idea

[CrimsonBishop]

I personally don't like dungeons that go on too long. My least favorite areas of D2 were dungeons with 3 or more levels. If the levels were made to be different looking or have totally different monsters than that would be better, but as it was in D2 it was just annoying and boring. I agree with the comments about making lower levels darker looking to give more of a sense of going deeper down.

[kaervek]

I'd like the idea of "trapholes" in the floor. Like at the start of the demo where theres a void below, if you could jump *into* that void and fall to the next level (or several levels down into a pool or something).

Like the level mechanic in Toejam & earl or whatever it was where you could fall off a level and end up several below.

[Onehouse]

The problem is, with sissy baby tp, dungeons are literally 2 steps away from town even if you are 1000 levels below the ground.

In D1, the game had to load up the town data which took some time. This acted as a slight deterant so you really did feel a bit trapped down there, not wanting to waste time going back to town.

Basicall, I'm saying Blizzard needs to stop bottle feeding palyers and bending to the desires of all the cry baby players who want the game to be made easy. If they make the game for babies, it will lose the "effects" such as being trapped and so on.

If I think back on both D1 and D2 I think the most memorable moments all revolved around what happened after you had to go back to town and then noticed that you didn't have any TP scrolls left, having to continue and press on until you found one, scared to death with no pots left etc.

[Xeteh]

If I think back on both D1 and D2 I think the most memorable moments all revolved around what happened after you had to go back to town and then noticed that you didn't have any TP scrolls left, having to continue and press on until you found one, scared to death with no pots left etc.

And then you watched as a Warrior with Arch Angel's Staff of Apocalypse ran around nuking everything.

[Onehouse]

Forgetting that the whole of D1 was just those 16 levels. Imagine if the Flayer Dungeon/Halls of the Dead etc. took longer to clear than D1.

Well, that's not true entirely. Part of what made D1 really scary and slow was that you could only walk and the monsters actually felt really fast. In D2 you just ran around stressing... not much horror in that. It changes once you reach hell though, but I think it should have been like that from the start. Not only the last difficulty level. Once you reach the fun part in D2 (Hell), you already beaten the game 2 times and that is like 2 times too much to wait for the good gameplay.

[Onehouse]

if you removed tp from the game it would be a huge bomb. there are alot of things bliz can do to make the game harder or more dangerous or whatever, but getting rid of the one element that keeps the game fast would be a very bad idea

I think that they should simply change it so that you couldn't cast TP if monsters are close or if you were in a fight. Also, I would love to see certain areas that are completely TP free. Like boss lairs and such... being able to just TP out of a boss fight, fill up on pots, then go straight back is just stupid and game breaking. I think its hard to get it right though. If you add too much the game becomes boring and slow paced, but at the same time it becomes more scary and you care more about staying alive etc...

[Sein Schatten]

I think that they should simply change it so that you couldn't cast TP if monsters are close or if you were in a fight. Also, I would love to see certain areas that are completely TP free. Like boss lairs and such... being able to just TP out of a boss fight, fill up on pots, then go straight back is just stupid and game breaking.

Then you have to balance the boss around this. In D2 I had to do that sometimes.

[Kryyn]

You could make it so your map doesn't work in dungeons, and you have to use torches to see beyond a meter.

;P

[Grogtank]

If the dungeon is interesting enough it doesn't matter how deep or large it is. Boss packs help in making things interesting but I feel more special encounters like The Butcher in Diablo 1 would go a long way in spicing things up. More mini-bosses with special areas, stronger than boss packs but not as strong as act bosses. This is the way to go imo.

[Onehouse]

If the dungeon is interesting enough it doesn't matter how deep or large it is. Boss packs help in making things interesting but I feel more special encounters like The Butcher in Diablo 1 would go a long way in spicing things up. More mini-bosses with special areas, stronger than boss packs but not as strong as act bosses. This is the way to go imo.

Yeah, totally agree. Butcher from D1 is probably my favourite boss of all time most games included. It was scary enough to begin with and then just hearing FRESH MEAT and having this guy chop you up in 2 hits was amazing. My first games I usually just skipped him and went back for him after some time but later games I used to save bows and if I had the gold I would purchase a firewall scroll and simply trap him behind some grates and shoot at him with the bow and use the firescroll if I had one. Of the bear weapons made him easier as well.

From the looks of it, they seem to be adding a lot of scripted events and oh my god moments though. For all I care, they can add super hard bosses and just make them optional. There can never be too many bosses =D

[factotum]

I would agree that D1 got its variety from the difference in the dungeon as you penetrated deeper. D2 got it by having lots of different dungeons of different types--you wouldn't ever mistake being in the Jail for being in the Halls of the Dead, for example! As such I don't think D2 needed really deep dungeons, and I don't think D3 needs them either--unless they do something like having one really deep dungeon being an entire Act of the game, in which case it might just work.

[Onehouse]

I would agree that D1 got its variety from the difference in the dungeon as you penetrated deeper. D2 got it by having lots of different dungeons of different types--you wouldn't ever mistake being in the Jail for being in the Halls of the Dead, for example! As such I don't think D2 needed really deep dungeons, and I don't think D3 needs them either--unless they do something like having one really deep dungeon being an entire Act of the game, in which case it might just work.

Well, I think in D1 you had the feeling of being really deep into a dungeon. In D2 you had the feeling of beeing really far away from the town. I tick better if I am deep in a dungeon. Preferably right under the town for minimal "boring" traveling.

Also, if you have a way to get back to town really fast and easy it doesn't get as scary. Townportals is something I have a hate/love relationship with. The mechanic is needed or the game can get tedious but having them removes a lot of the claustophobia of beeing really deep and left out as well. I think that each benefit should have a backside. So that you have to think about what you are doing. Having a really easy way of going back to town should incur some kind of downside. What exactly I'm not sure of.

[Spero]

If the dungeon is interesting enough it doesn't matter how deep or large it is. Boss packs help in making things interesting but I feel more special encounters like The Butcher in Diablo 1 would go a long way in spicing things up. More mini-bosses with special areas, stronger than boss packs but not as strong as act bosses. This is the way to go imo.

I agree. The special encounters really make the game, especially when the monster seems to have some personality.

Big mazes are annoying, but I agree that the feeling of being closed in is good. Deep dungeons with significant changes as you go down help.

[Lord_Jaroh]

It would be interesting if they limited said townportalling/ease of transport for a possible "hardcore" mode...

I myself love deep dungeons, and would love to see a "deeper dungeon" than any of the ones in D2. Of course I also don't like the speed of Diablo II, as it made escaping that much easier.

[Onehouse]

It would be interesting if they limited said townportalling/ease of transport for a possible "hardcore" mode...

I myself love deep dungeons, and would love to see a "deeper dungeon" than any of the ones in D2. Of course I also don't like the speed of Diablo II, as it made escaping that much easier.

I would like to see some sort of quest you could take with your character that costed some money, nothing like 100 soj's but still something of worth in order to get it. The quest should be repeatable and come in different flavours but the main thing should be that you need to enter a dungeon after recieving the quest and once you enter you can't leave until you either beat it or die trying, perhaps you should be allowed to TP out but if you do you still can't come back. You enter with your gear and your inventory and you can do it solo or in a group. If someone dies they can't come back. The dungeon should be random and insanely long. Like tons of floors with random mini bosses and in the end a huge random boss. That would be a sweet feature to have, and completing one could open up new harder ones that are even more costly to accept.

Then you have the normal game and when ever you feel like an epic dungeon crawl you always got this thingy you can do on the side and with this other ruleset it would provide added fun and challange.