View Full Version : Another (great) idea about solving the pk issue
Lynxxmania
23-07-2008, 20:25
Hi there.
I am also having my go at a solution to the pk problem.
Basicly, pk should be allowed and doable, anything else would be out of the question. But what should not be possible is through use of hack killing someone (sending missiles and tping to town, hostiling before missile hits).
My easy solution is to add a count down timer (probably not a totaly new idea) so that when someone wants to shostile you he/she will have to go back in town and press the hostile button and WAIT 3 seconds before being able to tray and kill you. This way no pking through hacks could be made (well hopefully they will make the game pretty hard to hack).
3 seconds is a short time so the pk:ers still can have fun trying to chase people down. The people being chased have 3 seconds warning, more than enough I say. They can exit the game and start a new one, fight the pk:er or go back into town and wait for the pk:er to leave. Simple as that.
Tp pking is something differnt. If you are careful enough it wont happen and blizzard might be able to fix it anyway. Might start a differnt thead about that ;).
Gigashadow
23-07-2008, 20:35
Main issue with PK is not really dying or anything, I don't think people actually fight the PK'ers, that's kinda pointless. Main issue is a PK coming into a game that assembled from a party of PvM'ers, and basically just dispersing all the players away. Your system doesn't fix this. CooP will still be ruined.
The idea is not a knew one, TPPK should surely be removed, as far as I'm concerned your idea is even more than needs to be done. If Blizzard made it so that any spells/traps/whatevers got canceled as soon as somebody steped into a TP TPPK would be effectively over and done with.
Blizz showed they could do it with holy hammers, meteors and a whole other number of skills, why they don't do it for all skills is a mystery to me.
Main issue with PK is not really dying or anything, I don't think people actually fight the PK'ers, that's kinda pointless. Main issue is a PK coming into a game that assembled from a party of PvM'ers, and basically just dispersing all the players away. Your system doesn't fix this. CooP will still be ruined.
Laf, oh poor you, coop is ruined, what a joke. When people come to town the PKer leaves since there is noone left to PK, if waiting 2-3 minutes is hard for you than I pity you.
Uncle_Mike
23-07-2008, 21:16
I'll just chime in with the usual "let's keep this civil here" :yes:
The top ramen
23-07-2008, 22:15
PK is a way of life. You have to understand that for people that take their PKing seriously that any attempts to nerf the PKing system besides of course getting rid of tppking would just make them generally very sad :'(
Sein Schatten
23-07-2008, 22:58
PK is a way of life. You have to understand that for people that take their PKing seriously that any attempts to nerf the PKing system besides of course getting rid of tppking would just make them generally very sad :'(
Griefers are not a majority. They are even amongst PKers a minority. (Experience extrapolated from rappelz. For rappelz, there is one pvp server and even there, the players who only grief are not a lot.)
"Duelling" is okay. Griefing is not okay. That is, imo, common sense.
Gigashadow
23-07-2008, 23:29
Laf, oh poor you, coop is ruined, what a joke. When people come to town the PKer leaves since there is noone left to PK, if waiting 2-3 minutes is hard for you than I pity you.Or he doesn't leave and sits there until we leave.
PK is a way of life. You have to understand that for people that take their PKing seriously that any attempts to nerf the PKing system besides of course getting rid of tppking would just make them generally very sad :'(And make people like me generally happy.Griefers are not a majority. They are even amongst PKers a minority. (Experience extrapolated from rappelz. For rappelz, there is one pvp server and even there, the players who only grief are not a lot.)
"Duelling" is okay. Griefing is not okay. That is, imo, common sense.Right you are, His Shadow.
Ok im not very experienced with this stuff. But when a pker comes into a pvm and kills all the lower level people trying to level up and all the pvm chars, it kinda pisses me off..
Doesn't seem like too many people are angered by it in these forums and some people do it but i would like to ask why do they do it?
Ive wanted to know the answer to this question for a long time because ive just assumed they are a bunch of *bleeps* who just get a kick out of it. but i could be wrong, im not sure.
If anyone could help me out on this i would really really appreciate this
(I only posted here cus it was the top on in the forum and it had to do with pk, sorry if its OT)
:D thank you and sorry
i really hate pk'ers (alot), but i do expect a few here and there, thats why i always keep 1 anti-pker (basically, a pvp char) char in my account for emergency use
Lynxxmania
24-07-2008, 19:08
Hmm think I must clearify what I meant with tp-pking (not hanging around the forum that much so might be missusing the phrase). I mean people trying to kill you by getting you to step through a tp surrounded by bad-*** monsters that will eat you alive when you step through the tp. This is what will be the hardest part for blizzard to do anything about.
The hack tp-killing (getting up hydras/blizzard/whatever) tping to town and hostiling would be easily stoped by the 3 second rule I suggested.
Pking is part of the game, if a PK:er joins and hositle you, then you can choose to keep on killing monsters and risk getting killed or go back to town and wait him/her out. That is part of diablo and I think, and hope, it will remain in D3 too, but anything done through hacks/tp-pking(the one I mean) should be stopped at all costs.
The timer would be just fine with me, another option that has been suggested a few times would be to make hostiling a feature you must enable through an NPC. Place this NPC away from the town entrance, the WP and most importantly where the TPs spawn and TPPK becomes wildly inefficient. With the distance between the NPC and the WP you wouldn't be able to cheat the WP timer and thus PKs would be forced into classic hunting.
Obviously this won't please everyone completely, as that legit PKer will still be able to come into your game and hostile you, but it would basically guarantee that unless you actively chose to risk your character there would be no reason to die to PK.
Also, the claim that a PK will just wait in your game until you all leave is generally specious. It is possible it happens on occasion, but for most people the goal of PKing is the Hunt and the Ear, not the grief. If you hostile a game and seven people go to town and wait you out, why would you stand there for 20 minutes waiting on them when you could join 10 other games and potentially encounter 70 different people who would not immediately know you were a PK? It doesn't make sense to me, though admittedly I only play HC and have only seen one legit PK in the last two ladder seasons so my sample size is very small.
Maybe the PKer won't just wait outside town for all the PvMers to leave, but there is a chance that he will. If he is a griefer, he is almost certain to stay for more than just a few minutes. Not to mention that if one or two PvM people in the game decide to take the risk of being outside town, the PKer stays in the game and the rest of the PvMers who stayed in town have to suffer. Anyway, that's not the main reason I'm responding to this topic.
As Gigashadow already said, and as I have said in a previous topic (I think it got locked), it's not dying that bothers people, except perhaps the hardcore players that don't like PKing. A PvM character can die just like anyone else, especially if the PvM character is trying out a strange variant build for fun or for a challenge. Dying is not the problem. The problem is that all a PKer has to do to ruin the game for a PvM player is come in and hit the hostile button. Why is it so easy to disrupt the PvM player's game? Many of the pro-PK crowd are saying that we who are against PK are just trying to unfairly force our game on them, but isn't that true for you as well?
We are both trying to shape the game around our idea of fun. There is a difference here though. For the PKer to have fun, his game requires unwilling victims. It requires infringing on the gameplay of others. Your motivation may not be to grief the PvM players, but they will feel the same either way once their game is ruined, so what's the difference? However, the PvM player is not actively ruining other people's fun with his gameplay style. At least in my mind, the thought process goes "you can PK, as long as it's someone who doesn't mind the interaction". Even though I dislike PKing in general and would like it to be removed completely, I am willing to try and compromise. After all, it is easier to accomodate the PvM player and still leave options open for aggressive PvP than it is to accomodate the PKer and leave options open for PvM. That is to say, leave options open for public PvM games where you can meet people who enjoy the same type of Diablo gameplay you do.
Then there is the argument "PKing is in the game, put up or shut up". Well, that's true to a certain extent. PKing certainly IS in Diablo 2, and I chose not to put up. If you look in the Technical/Bnet forums you can see I posted some pics of the melee Sorc I play in Median. I have played single player pretty much exclusively since I got frustrated with the open hostility system. In any case, since we are in the Diablo 3 forums, not the Diablo 2 forums, what I am arguing is that PKing should not be in D3. Just because it was in Diablo 2 does not mean that it should be in Diablo 3.
Pro-PKers shout that separate servers would mean a severe community split and that's a big no-no. I would argue that including PK is just as divisive due to the nature of the play style. How many people were driven to single player or closed games because they didn't want to deal with PvP? Who knows, but I bet it's quite a few. I imagine the amount of "split" would be pretty low if there were separate servers, and even if it was somewhat significant, at least everyone would be having fun, right? Not just the PKers?
Just as a hypothetical to the pro-PK crowd: suppose there was a counterpart to the hostility button that forced you into a party with me and teleported you into the group of monsters I was fighting to help me out. Would you support such a button? It is pretty much the same thing as the hostile button, only for PvM. Why do you get to force your game on us, but we have to deal with frivolous restrictions like closed games and single player just to play the game the way it is presented?
Hmmm.... another long post late at night. I hope I made at least some sort of sense :)
Kretschmer
01-08-2008, 04:49
Any of these would make me happy in hardcore:
1)15-second hostility timer. Self-explanatory, but vulnerable if any drop hacks appear. Negates TPPK.
2)Toggling PvP on or off on game creation.
3)Removing non-consensual PvP. Letting griefers have fun is less important than a strong, happy greater hardcore community.
Yes you have a very (great) idea there, making hacks impossible. It would solve a lot of questions, I agree with you there.
The timer would be just fine with me, another option that has been suggested a few times would be to make hostiling a feature you must enable through an NPC. Place this NPC away from the town entrance, the WP and most importantly where the TPs spawn and TPPK becomes wildly inefficient. With the distance between the NPC and the WP you wouldn't be able to cheat the WP timer and thus PKs would be forced into classic hunting.
This is still vulnerable to things such as speed hacks etc....and actually - pretty much any idea to control pvp is subject to hacks....and people with too much time on their hands will always find a way....
The whole idea of pay 2 play makes more sense if they actively works against hacks and maybe even have a guarantee that any hack discovered will be snuffed within 24 hours? or else playing is free I think would be a neat guarantee.
I still like my idea of having a game creation option of Admin - you can boot whoever you want out - can also designate any one as a back up etc. This could potentially give rise to "Well known and sought after" game creators who don't abuse the admin power. This would almost create a loose guild atmosphere with out the actual guild connection. Also giving more information about the player joining - identifiable traits such as general location - people could then start separating out the griefers/hackers more and more and force them to play by themselves or with others like them (hopefully)
I personally think the game admin idea is awful. Giving individual players more power simply because they are the game creator makes no sense. If it were currently in place in D2, Baal Runs would be impossible. Player A creates a game with Baal Quest completed, has someone without quest kill and then right at the time of death boots them. Free Drops every game - yay.
Your idea that it would give rise to a group of well-known admins is laughable in my opinion. Diablo 3 will more than likely have hundreds of thousands of gamers, each of which will want to host games in order to ensure that they don't get booted right before a big quest reward or to make room for friends who want in. Keeping track of all of those game creators and identifying the "good" ones would be more work than a server-wide list of TPPK accounts. If you want to go ahead and start one of those for Hardcore Ladder USEast to get your list-compiling skills honed I support you whole-heartedly, but I certainly would never consider it.
If this were to be something monitored server-side where upon leaving every game you would be given a window to vote whether the game host was good or not I'm sure the player base would be pissed. None of us wants extra screens to sort through after every run. Also, TPPKers and abusers would be apt to vote positively on each others games (hackers tend to run together in my experience) leading to falsely positive ratings for these players and a system of continuing exploitation. The inverse would be likely as well, with any player disagreement leading to a dilemma. Does a game host boot someone who won't stop spamming or screaming vulgarities and get the negative rating? Also, should the spammer or whatever decide to leave on his own I can't think he'd be likely to vote for a positive experience in the game.
Would you trust pub gamers enough to have them be able to boot you from a game on command? I wouldn't. This is a system that puts more power into the hands of your average public gamer and cannot be regulated, which I feel would force people into the community gaming situation we currently have. You would know the people in your community well enough to trust them with that power, but when you force people to game within a specific community you are a step away from forcing them to go private.
Cheers
-Tai
You would know the people in your community well enough to trust them with that power, but when you force people to game within a specific community you are a step away from forcing them to go private.i
If there's one thing I've learned from the PvP/PK forums, it's that forcing a group of people to play in private games is apparently not a bad thing at all. It is occasionally even referred to as "the perfect solution" to said group's problems.
I agree though, giving game creators the power to boot players from their games would be too abusable and the idea that there would be some list of "awesome hosts" is a little too farfetched for me.
Enable "party members only" messaging, tell all to go to area X and continue leveling there instead of area gamename.
Could work assuming there will be more alternatives then just baalruns or CS, this would increase the difficulty for the PKers, but not completely stop them.
When I figure out how my PvM spec'ed character can effectively fight a PvP spec'ed character you guys will be the first to know.
:scratchchin:
PvM characters fighting PvP characters only becomes viable at higher levels. Generally your best bet is to do as Kijya suggested or to go to town and wait them out, of course getting your fellow party members to do the same via party only chat. It does no good for 5 of your 6 members to take a 5 minute break and the last to stay and argue with the PKer.
Ignore PKers and they'll go away, just like trolls on an online forum.
maxusmag
16-08-2008, 07:50
Or better yet. you are only allowed to hostile people that have their hostile flags on.
forced pvp is stupid and makes for a bad game and griefing. as i am paying to play this game i have a right to play how i want to play and not be interupted by some guy because he thinks he's is the bombz.
let people who want to pk each other be able to. you can have the option of turning it on or off. blizzard has already said they are going to do something about it which is good.
there was nothing i hated more than some jerk coming into a group game and ganking everyone because he could. it is stupid and ignorant to have a system like that.
not only does that waste my time but it also wastes the hours i spent getting xp and gold already.
blizzard see's it as an issue and hopefully they will do something smart about it.
I see two problems with agreed hostility.
1. Someone can go into a dueling game just to grab gold, and the duelers can't drive him away but must instead make a new game.
2. I might not be able to hostile someone I wish to kill.
Number 2 might not make any sense to some, but if someone has a really dumb or rude name you might just want to hostile that person.
2. I might not be able to hostile someone I wish to kill.
That's kind of the point.
There is a reason why non consensual PKing is effectively non existent in modern gaming.
PirateJax
16-08-2008, 18:36
Or better yet. you are only allowed to hostile people that have their hostile flags on.
forced pvp is stupid and makes for a bad game and griefing. as i am paying to play this game i have a right to play how i want to play and not be interupted by some guy because he thinks he's is the bombz.
LOL! Thats like saying they shouldn't have X monster in the game because you really don't like them and you should be allowed to play "how you want."
If you can't handle PKer's you have every right to: a) leave the game, find a new one, b) play alone, c) make a passworded game with your friends.
Obviously, Bliz needs to get rid of any sort of undefendable means of PKing, but not being able to hostile anyone you want is ridiculous.
LOL! Thats like saying they shouldn't have X monster in the game because you really don't like them and you should be allowed to play "how you want."
No it isn't. Failed analogy is fail. It's just common sense that you don't put a system into a game where one player aggressively forces his play style onto another unwilling player. Blizzard North obviously had big plans for their PK system and believed it would increase tension and really add to the gaming atmosphere. I don't think even the most die-hard PK supporter could claim they PK to increase gaming atmosphere and keep a straight face. Modern gaming has gone to great lengths to separate casual players from competitive players, PVM players from PVP players and there's a good reason for that. It's because with a system like that, everyone is happy and everyone is a winner. Could you imagine the problems it would cause if you forced casual gamers to play against ladder players in an RTS or beat em up? Or if every single sever in an MMO was PVP enabled with no restrictions? Blizzard North tried to do something different and unique with their PK system but I think they were being quite naive when they designed it.
maxusmag
17-08-2008, 04:12
No as mentioned is your analogy. there is a huge difference in something being part of the game and something that is not part of the game.
Blizzard north did a horrible job on the pvp part of the game. being able to hostile someone without there permission is a horrible idea.
actually it works very well. I am playing LOTRO right now pvp is a separate part from pve. if i want to pvp then i go to that zone. if i don't then stay in the pve zone.
i don't have forced pvp on me when i do not want to.
forced pvp only leads to issues. i should not have to make private games, and solo stuff because you feel you have the right to enter my game and gank me for no reason.
What gives you the right to tell me how to play a game i am paying for anyway? no one. evidently blizzard agrees as well.
if you combine that with games that are auto hostile games. meaning you can set the game to hostile that means anyone in that game can come in and kill you then that is the risk you take.
also if someone is taking gold like that then they are griefing other players and should be reported for such. however having 2 options.
allowing individual flags to be set at anytime and having games that are open hostile games should solve the problem.
forced pvp is bad for the game and bad gameplay in general.
LOL! Thats like saying they shouldn't have X monster in the game because you really don't like them and you should be allowed to play "how you want."
It's actually nothing like that at all. Here's a quote from someone who is a better writer than I am:
Monster challenges are set. A player can become familiar with them, and once he knows what they are, he can choose whether or not to keep playing.
The PK challenge comes at random, and may not come at all. It's at the whims not of the game design, but some other person and just how rude they are determined to be.
There's a bit more to it than that snippet, but it refers to previous parts of an extended argument and wouldn't make sense for people who haven't read it. It's available for anyone who wants to read it though, and it features Max Schaefer, member of Diablo 2's design team on the side of PK. I've posted the link around here a few times, but I just really think that it's worth the time it takes to read if you care at all about the issue. It's meaningful, I think, regardless of which side of the issue you are on, though clearly I may be a bit biased since I am strongly opposed to PK.
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