View Full Version : Optional Infinite Dungeon
I think it would be really cool in Diablo 3 if they included some sort of optional, infinite dungeon. It would be much like the Dungeon from Diablo 1 but it would just keep going down and getting progressively harder. It'd make a great alternative to going through all the acts/quests if you just wanted to kill and kill some more.
I actually really like this idea. :thumbup: Maybe it would be better if it would end, but we wouldn't know where? Blizz could give a reward to the first who gets down there. And make it hard, I mean hard like in every-monster-is-Extrastrong-Fana-Cursed-Superdoll -hard, on the lower levels. Also further down you couldn't cast tele (if it's in the game) or tp and the monsters would respawn. Then maybe every attack would get a cooldown of 1 sec. You get the idea... :jig: :jig: Imo there needs to be a real challenge for once instead of the constant CS/Baal runs. "Ooh look there I hurt my finger, better take out my Call to Arms!" :coffee: :wave:
Of course, the dungeon would still be cleared one day, probably soon rather than late. So then Blizz could make a patch and give us a new one. A harder one. You get my drift? Also, the drops would be godly way down there. Maybe not new items, since that wouldn't be fair for newbies/casual players, but definitely better drop chances... Like 10x better on the lowest level or something.
I'm all for it. It would make a fresh change from D2's endless grinding - or at least be a better 'mask' for said grinding.
snugglson
22-07-2008, 22:56
Maybe make it so that once you die, you have to start over from the begining and maybe you cant use TPs period. That way you would have to live off of health globes.
I think it would be really cool in Diablo 3 if they included some sort of optional, infinite dungeon. It would be much like the Dungeon from Diablo 1 but it would just keep going down and getting progressively harder. It'd make a great alternative to going through all the acts/quests if you just wanted to kill and kill some more.
Somebody call the king of sweden and get this mf a nobel prize of some sort. Had to register just to give this suggestion my most heartfelt support:thumbsup:
This dungeon has to be like D1 in all its gothic horrific glory. It would satisfy more aspects than just presenting players with a spectacular challenge, it would be the perfect way to get exp by killing monsters that are just the right amount of a challenge as they gradually grow harder which eliminates the most frustrating part of D2 where you had to choose between slaughtering ridiculously weak hordes and wasting all your pots on killing a single pointless monster and this would hopefully also put an end to the boosting phenomena. Restore the ockult goth feeling of diablo that was imo lost in D2.
For leveling, it would be a fantastic idea.
However, from a designer perspective... it just won't fly.
For leveling, it would be a fantastic idea.
However, from a designer perspective... it just won't fly.
Its really great how you backed that up with a solid explanation as to why................................ :coffee:
There doesn't need to be a "solid" explanation as to why it would not be feasible.
Take in mind the current design structure of the diablo "world." It's not an open world. It's not a drastically changing world. each area in diablo 2 has what, roughly 3 different layouts or so to where things are located.
Now obviously the new engine is a bit more advanced, with taking every pixel in to consideration with crash detection... HOWEVER, the mere amount of memory required to create an infinite dungeon on top of the current production schedule... won't make it feasible.
It might able to pull it off if the level is the same layout each and every time, just more difficult monsters each time. That might possibly work out just fine.
May due to myself working in the I.T. industry, that I am able to understand the amount of coding it would take to make such a thing occur...
i think it would be nice.
however, i dont really like the idea of i being without end, 'cause then the stuff would get better and better. it would leave the hardcore gamers with all the stuff, and the newbies with non.. if you get my point? it just wouldn't be fair.
Sokar Rostau
23-07-2008, 04:20
Sounds familiar. (http://nwn.bioware.com/premium/module_infinitedungeons.html)
Say, I am no computer expert, but doesn't that NWN module crush Futz's explanation into dust?
The more I think about the idea, the more I like it. People are always going to grind. Better to have something like this than another cow level. Also, if the problem is giving an unfair advantage to the leet players, just make the pit drops normal creature drops, but good experience. People would grind through that pit simply for the reputation of "level 13", then "level 16", and so on. No tps would just make this so much fun! Also, to add a twist, you could introduce a random penalty every level, a la the battle arena in ff7. (E.g., -% all stats, random spell unusable, -% res all, etc etc.)
I've suggested this 3 timed, so clearly I'm behind the idea. I would love to see it as some sort of test though so it could be ranked, as in the people who go the deepest are kept track of on a ladder.
I think that also the area doesnt even need drops per se, but perhaps some chest after you finish that awards items based on how far you went (and perhaps even what % of mobs you killed).
One cool way they could do it actually would be to have a chest at the end of each floor (suppose the floors are big) that will always drop one item, where the item's level depends on the floor level #, and the quality of the item depend on what % of the enemies you kill.
Or instead of a chest, just make it a boss at the end of each floor, and have him with the only drops, but make his drops progressively better in some way the deeper you go.
There's so much cool stuff they could do with this, that would totally remove the monotony of the endless baal grind.
There doesn't need to be a "solid" explanation as to why it would not be feasible.
...
HOWEVER, the mere amount of memory required to create an infinite dungeon on top of the current production schedule... won't make it feasible.
Actually...
You only need to load levels into memory if the characters are participating in them at the moment (and that's clientside), or if they are close to them (to prevent load times). Worst case is that you have 8 characters that are all spread out through the dungeon, each one three levels down from the other, starting at level 2. So you have to store levels 1-24 in memory server-side. Note that this is simply in order to track dungeon building blocks and item drops. The fact that dungeons are built piecemeal means that for a whole floor, you might be using this much memory to store the random layout for one level:
00000001 00000002 00000003 30000004 30000005 00000006
Which is 53 bytes. That means that storing a randomly generated dungeon that goes 1,000 levels deep would require about 53KB of memory (the size of a small Word document).
You have to store the loot drops on the server too. A rough guess should put 100,000 items into about 1MB of memory. The levels themselves will be loaded client-side, cached in advance as appropriate to the end-user's system, just as all other levels in the game.
The infinite dungeon wouldn't tax the system much more than a field trip to the Cathedral.
It's feasible alright.
I've suggested this 3 timed, so clearly I'm behind the idea. I would love to see it as some sort of test though so it could be ranked, as in the people who go the deepest are kept track of on a ladder.
I think that also the area doesnt even need drops per se, but perhaps some chest after you finish that awards items based on how far you went (and perhaps even what % of mobs you killed).
One cool way they could do it actually would be to have a chest at the end of each floor (suppose the floors are big) that will always drop one item, where the item's level depends on the floor level #, and the quality of the item depend on what % of the enemies you kill.
Or instead of a chest, just make it a boss at the end of each floor, and have him with the only drops, but make his drops progressively better in some way the deeper you go.
There's so much cool stuff they could do with this, that would totally remove the monotony of the endless baal grind.
I second the motion.
Actually...
You only need to load levels into memory if the characters are participating in them at the moment (and that's clientside), or if they are close to them (to prevent load times). Worst case is that you have 8 characters that are all spread out through the dungeon, each one three levels down from the other, starting at level 2. So you have to store levels 1-24 in memory server-side. Note that this is simply in order to track dungeon building blocks and item drops. The fact that dungeons are built piecemeal means that for a whole floor, you might be using this much memory to store the random layout for one level:
00000001 00000002 00000003 30000004 30000005 00000006
Which is 53 bytes. That means that storing a randomly generated dungeon that goes 1,000 levels deep would require about 53KB of memory (the size of a small Word document).
You have to store the loot drops on the server too. A rough guess should put 100,000 items into about 1MB of memory. The levels themselves will be loaded client-side, cached in advance as appropriate to the end-user's system, just as all other levels in the game.
The infinite dungeon wouldn't tax the system much more than a field trip to the Cathedral.
It's feasible alright.
Someone scrape Putz off the road, hes just been run over:jig:
Also it wouldnt have to be an endless dungeon, it could just be quite long and really hard. When its used up blizz add a new one thats even more challenging. You could have a limit as to how many players are allowed to complete it so when it reaches 100 completions or something its defeated and closed and you have to hold on for the new cave.. just a thought tho.. might be a suck *** idea :P
Maybe it would be better if it would end, but we wouldn't know where? Blizz could give a reward to the first who gets down there. And make it hard, I mean hard like in every-monster-is-Extrastrong-Fana-Cursed-Superdoll -hard, on the lower levels. Also further down you couldn't cast tele (if it's in the game) or tp and the monsters would respawn. Then maybe every attack would get a cooldown of 1 sec. You get the idea... :jig: :jig: Imo there needs to be a real challenge for once instead of the constant CS/Baal runs. "Ooh look there I hurt my finger, better take out my Call to Arms!" :coffee: :wave:
Of course, the dungeon would still be cleared one day, probably soon rather than late. So then Blizz could make a patch and give us a new one. A harder one.
Endless with those loot chest that 5zigen took up and:
At death you get pulled out of there and have to restart, and no going to towns when you get in there death is the only way out. Wouldn't necessary have to be different layouts on the levels just get different mobs to spawn..
I can imagine it now and I love it.. endless swarms of mobs just to get to that shiny chest.. great great fun :D
also kudos to Azymn for knowing what the hell he's ranting about :D
Yeah, it's definitely doable from a programming perspective. I saw this in a Diablo style hack and slash game that I tried to cure my Diablo fix with. The game wasn't that good and the only area with monsters was this infinite dungeon. I don't think this dungeon would be a good centerpiece to the game, but rather a nice add-on for challenge and prestige.
I really like the ideas proposed about having no TPs allowed, Death means start over, and the random penalties applied (though that one would be more applicable for the deeper levels.) I do think it'd be nice to have a timed (like say, 1 minute) portal every 5 or 10 level interval.
Maybe you could also get some sort of decorative item or something for every certain number of levels so if you managed to get really deep, you could show it off.
Maybe you could also get some sort of decorative item or something for every certain number of levels so if you managed to get really deep, you could show it off.
Not a bad idea. If theres a boss on every floor maybe you could get the head or a random bodypart like the ears in D2 from PVP. It would definetly add to the prestige feeling
I think it would be really cool in Diablo 3 if they included some sort of optional, infinite dungeon. It would be much like the Dungeon from Diablo 1 but it would just keep going down and getting progressively harder. It'd make a great alternative to going through all the acts/quests if you just wanted to kill and kill some more.
Yeah that would be nice, some never ending dungeon in which the monsters get stronger the more you go, with more damage and HP.
Sein Schatten
23-07-2008, 14:58
Yeah that would be nice, some never ending dungeon in which the monsters get stronger the more you go, with more damage and HP.
Ugh... you know that character classes will get balanced around how deep you can go into the dungeon. Imagine the outcry when the necromancer can go 300 levels deep and the barbarian 3 levels.
Ugh... you know that character classes will get balanced around how deep you can go into the dungeon. Imagine the outcry when the necromancer can go 300 levels deep and the barbarian 3 levels.
How do you figure that? Like being able to revive the powerful monsters? In that case why not just unable players to revive monsters to a certain degree?
Sein Schatten
23-07-2008, 15:11
How do you figure that? Like being able to revive the powerful monsters? In that case why not just unable players to revive monsters to a certain degree?
Huh?
It was an example. When you have an easily measurable quantity like this, people will cry and whine as long as their class is not on par with others.
Doing other stuff like farming bosses or something is not so easy to compare as stating a plain number "i got to lvl 38 but class X can go to 743. NERF/BUFF!"
edit: This is all directed to the post about continually getting tougher monsters.
I would rather have a dungeon starting from normal Act1 to Hell Act 5 and stay at that difficulty.
That same Barbarian possibly might wipe the floor with that Necromancer in P.V.P.
If such a level design is implemented I hope that if you must log off you don't have to fight through 300 levels again in order to get back to where you stopped.
Huh?
It was an example. When you have an easily measurable quantity like this, people will cry and whine as long as their class is not on par with others.
Doing other stuff like farming bosses or something is not so easy to compare as stating a plain number "i got to lvl 38 but class X can go to 743. NERF/BUFF!"
edit: This is all directed to the post about continually getting tougher monsters.
I would rather have a dungeon starting from normal Act1 to Hell Act 5 and stay at that difficulty.
I see, well so be it. It wont be less fun to plough through the dungeons with a barb and besides you could always create separate leagues for every class and in order to climb that ladder the party can only consist of a single class. Why not add a class restriction to the options when creating a game?
That same Barbarian possibly might wipe the floor with that Necromancer in P.V.P.
If such a level design is implemented I hope that if you must log off you don't have to fight through 300 levels again in order to get back to where you stopped.
Of course! Thats a big part of the challenge. Like playing Super Mario Bros or something :)
I posted this elsewhere I think, but Lufia II: Rise of the Sinistrals had a 100-floor dungeon called the Ancient Cave. It was rather unique in the fact that every time you started it, you had to leave all your equipment, gold, and experience at the "front door", so to speak.
So, beginning the dungeon at level 1 with no equipment, you had to fight to the bottom of the dungeon by acquiring new equipment through chests and regaining levels through battles. All of the items you'd find in the dungeon were lost once you left it, except for special "artifacts" you could find in extremely rare, blue chests -- unlike everything else, these items persisted in the rest of the game world. If you reached the 100th floor, there was a boss you could fight and earn some pretty godly gear off of.
The Ancient Cave was one of the funnest things I've ever played in a game, and finding those blue chests was absolutely epic. I always thought Diablo could benefit greatly from something similar.
http://www.ancientcave.com/index.php?id=68
^ Ancient Cave info.
theBanger
23-07-2008, 17:27
I always wanted something like this in D2 preferably somewhere in act 4. Just another way to get to level 99 rather then Baal runs. To clear up the teleport issue (D2), you would have to find the key in each level to open the door. Something like an old Doom level. After every some odd number of levels you need more keys to advance. Eventually levels would become really big, and take a while to do, constantly taking longer and longer, making it constantly more difficult to advance.
Just an idea, maybe as a way to save your progress every 5-10 levels or so you could reach a haven, and in this place you could leave the game and come back, though you can't leave the dungeon of course. This is so that you don't get stuck getting 250 levels down, and you have to give it all up because you have work the next day. This would also cater to more peoples play times and styles. This haven could have other stuff too, like NPCs that sell pots, and better loot the further down you go. Maybe quests, or something can be obtained there aswell.
Any way I'm late for work so that's it for now. This idea sound really cool, and I'm all for it.
TopHatCat64
23-07-2008, 17:35
^Awesome.
Keys to the next level? I dig it.
Some sort of save area with npc's? Also, cool.
It sound a little arcadey actually but shoot, Diablo is kinda arcade when you think about it.
Ugh... you know that character classes will get balanced around how deep you can go into the dungeon. Imagine the outcry when the necromancer can go 300 levels deep and the barbarian 3 levels.
The necromancer won't even probably be in D3 and even if he is, he will mostly have new spells and only 3-4 returning.
Basing your opinion on 1 spell is error!
Sein Schatten
23-07-2008, 18:40
The necromancer won't even probably be in D3 and even if he is, he will mostly have new spells and only 3-4 returning.
Basing your opinion on 1 spell is error!
I am speechless... buffled... Do you even have the faintest idea what I was trying to say?
Feramors
24-07-2008, 00:53
I like the idea a lot. It would add a lot more reason to find a group of X peolpe and tackle the Deep Dungeon.
Did anyone play Disgaea for PS2? Sort of like that. That would be fun.
lol... where's Putz?
I want to see what he has to say now... :D
Minervian
24-07-2008, 04:02
I too think this is a brilliant idea. :)
Here's the way I would design it:
- The dungeon would be a tribute to D1. In fact, it's like the entire D1 game put into D3.
- no waypoints.
- As everyone agrees, the dungeon gets harder the deeper you go. To solve the problem where high level characters don't want to go through the easy levels again: there would be an entrance in every act of the game. Each act's entrance leads to different/deeper levels of this dungeon.
So for example, act 1 entrance enters the dungeon at level 1. Act 2 entrance enters the dungeon's 5th level, etc.
Essentially, if D3 has 5 acts, in act 5 you can skip to dungeon level 20. But from here on you're on your own - the dungeon is infinite, but there are no more skips from level 20. This is for balancing reasons.
(Of course, in the D3 Expansion ;) Blizzard could give us entrances to levels 25 and 30 via act 6 and 7.)
- each entrance to the dungeon in each act would be hidden as a secret/easter egg. Meaning it shouldn't be straightforward. It might even involve a long walk for more advanced acts (while the act 1 entrance would, as a tribute, be in/near Tristram).
- you cannot enter level 5 of the dungeon i you have not yet entered act 2/completed act 1.
- the dungeon acts as an optional place for leveling and collecting loot, though to prevent players getting addicted to it, the loot probably has to be average, with the occasional great drop or very rare drops/easter eggs unique to a particular level or monster or boss.
- And finally, in this day and age of crowdsourcing, levels beyond, say 50, would be randomly picked from player-designed templates. Players can design their own levels and share them with the D3 community. Players can download these levels and put them in a special folder in the game. The game then picks levels randomly (matching difficulty by dungeon level) from this cache. This is for single-player. Server-wise would be similar but you can't choose which templates are available - probably Blizzard will manage this. and of course Blizzard could throw in their own templates.
(Oh, and players can only design the floorplan and specify monsters who will drop loot according to fixed patterns determined by Blizzard (loot class), to prevent exploitation).
This last idea is to take some of the brainstorming off of Blizzard and pass them on to the players. This ought to generate more variety and prevent boredom/level-fatigue.
JunkStory
24-07-2008, 04:47
Man I would love to see an infinite dungeon.
I am speechless... buffled... Do you even have the faintest idea what I was trying to say?
You were trying to say that having characters balanced around pve is a bad idea... right?
I think it's a good idea.
I think it would be really cool in Diablo 3 if they included some sort of optional, infinite dungeon. It would be much like the Dungeon from Diablo 1 but it would just keep going down and getting progressively harder. It'd make a great alternative to going through all the acts/quests if you just wanted to kill and kill some more.
This was discussed during the D2 development as a dream feature, but it didn't get into the game. The same team then talked about it as a probable HGL feature, and it again didn't get into the game. I'm going to make a bold prediiction: at some point the D3 team will talk about it as a potential feature... and it won't get into the game.
theBanger
24-07-2008, 06:49
This was discussed during the D2 development as a dream feature, but it didn't get into the game. The same team then talked about it as a probable HGL feature, and it again didn't get into the game. I'm going to make a bold prediiction: at some point the D3 team will talk about it as a potential feature... and it won't get into the game.
But now we have a hand full of people who are supporting this. Not to mention giving all sorts of thoughts as to how it could be done. (besides Putz. lol)
- And finally, in this day and age of crowdsourcing, levels beyond, say 50, would be randomly picked from player-designed templates. Players can design their own levels and share them with the D3 community. Players can download these levels and put them in a special folder in the game. The game then picks levels randomly (matching difficulty by dungeon level) from this cache. This is for single-player. Server-wise would be similar but you can't choose which templates are available - probably Blizzard will manage this. and of course Blizzard could throw in their own templates.
Thats an awesome idea! :thumbup: Imagine guys like Holyknight3000 (http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=669935) or Glaurung (http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=668367) making us new maps to play on. Heck I might even try some of that myself if I don't suck too much at it.
Anyone remember how many levels there were in D?
You were trying to say that having characters balanced around pve is a bad idea... right?
I think it's a good idea.
That doesn't appear to be Sein's meaning at all, but rather that balancing characters around a single area in pve is a bad idea. Clearly in any given area some builds and classes will vastly outperform others... this is fine when you have a wide selection of endgame to choose from. When you have a single endgame area where only 3 builds from 2 classes can solo the first few levels at all, you have a problem. I think Sein's probably quite right to hypothesise discontent from the playerbase that, rather than simply being slower and trickier than another class, their favourite is unable to progress far at all.
I think Sein's probably quite right to hypothesise discontent from the playerbase that, rather than simply being slower and trickier than another class, their favourite is unable to progress far at all.
I cant see how that could be. Please explain why it would be impossible for certain classes to progress.
Sein Schatten
24-07-2008, 14:42
@phool: Exactly. :)
I cant see how that could be. Please explain why it would be impossible for certain classes to progress.
It is inevitable with a dungeon of ever increasing difficulty that there is a "stop". And that "stop" is sooner for some classes as others.
Apocalypse
24-07-2008, 14:52
Anyone remember how many levels there were in D?
16, believe it went to 24 with hellfire
16, believe it went to 24 with hellfire
Hah! Never heard of hellfire before but after looking it up on wikipedia I kinda understand why. "Neither Blizzard nor Sierra have links to the game on their websites" :p
For a massive area to be anything like approximately viable for many builds, it would have to be really boring, just a rather vanilla mob selection with hp and damage scaling up. Every time you add an immunity, a need for corpse control, some form of crowd control denial (immunity to stun, mind control, etc), high stacked res, extremely high ar/autohitting attacks, rapid summoning, leech immunity... another build drops out the race. Some classes will drop far sooner than others which is going to result in some amount of discontent.
Just ignoring solo builds and balancing it around a balanced team of organised players (with no town return) would probably make for a far more rewarding area, and if ranked could lead to a whole new dimension for purpose-built pvm team builds.
Arkansaw
24-07-2008, 15:16
Interesting idea, but not so good for the general public. You don't need another excuse for somebody's children to play the game for 72 hours straight just because he wants to get to level 1000
Because an area has a soft end does not have to imply it takes hours to reach it. Particularly evidenced by wasd top down shooters' survival modes with a duration of under 10 minutes, even if you're really good.
devildriver
24-07-2008, 16:04
I would rather see it have a limit to the levels like say 100. This gives people/parties a goal. On the 100th level i have no idea what could be there but theres many possibilites.
IMO having more and more godly items as you go down is a bad idea. I dont want to see D3 turn out into everyone having high end items and being able to clear the game by themselves much easier then it was originally designed for.
I think i nice idea would be to have on each level only a certain number of health orbs drop and unable to use potions. One problem i can see is melee chars with life leach (if its in the game) can just hack an slash while casters have harder times trying to heal themselves and keeping the mana supply up.
infinitesadd
24-07-2008, 17:42
This has the feel of the arena in a little played Playstaton 2 game called Chronicles of Norrath. it was an everquest port.
Anyway, it had a multiplayer mode called arena when you just fought groups of monsters and the further you got, the harder it got. We made it to board 60 or something and like the monsters were just all bosses. it got really, really hard.
I fully support this idea as I had a blast with that mode in that game, even though the game itself was terrible (it tried very hard to be diablo but was really buggy).
Well there doesnt have to be godly loot guarunteed...just higher chances of the better items dropping past a certain lvl....hell after lvl 100 they could increase the drop % for uniques by .001 per lvl you go down or something.
Also, how about different levels to start are all 1 kind of monster class? Going from easiest to hardest? This would be where they could implement cows! Once all the enemies have their own floors, they would intermingle.
How about A Fanatcisim undead stygian doll surronded by gloams and ES MS LE cows with Uber Diablo as their leader and Nithalak corspe exploding anyone you kill? that would be and would require serious battle planning!
OH, how about if you search long enough, you can find a scroll that details the next level. So say my lil example is lvl 275 or something, on the 274th you could find a scroll that just says "stygian doll, gloam, cow, diablo, nith"? Might be taking it too far, but you would have to have some kind of strategy session with some knowledge before going gun ho into some of these levels
DO IT BLIZZARD!
Interesting idea, but not so good for the general public. You don't need another excuse for somebody's children to play the game for 72 hours straight just because he wants to get to level 1000
So basically you want Blizzard to make a mediocre game so that somebody's children wont play the game 72 hors straight, correct?
I would rather see it have a limit to the levels like say 100. This gives people/parties a goal. On the 100th level i have no idea what could be there but theres many possibilites.
Indeed.
One game that is quite old now, but still playable, is Angband - The Mines of Moria. (1Mb - Lord of the Rings ascii character based game) That had over 100 levels of randomly generated dungeons, mobs that got progressively harder (look up Chaos mobs - ranomised your stats !!), and there they had a misson to kill Sauron before level 99, which once completed allowed you access to levels 100+ to hunt & kill Morgoth. Awesome.
If D3 could include something like that it would be great .. the main storyline to allow you to progress through the game, side quests, and for the brave a journey into Hell via the "endless dungeon" ...
I would definately give my vote for something like that :thumbup:
Also, how about different levels to start are all 1 kind of monster class? Going from easiest to hardest?
Quoting the same game again, Angband did this very well in that there were hundreds of different kinds of monsters that only started to appear after certain floor depths ... Easy to kill had a chance at appearing on a randomly generated level at the start, whereas the harder mobs would only start to appear after you progressed below certain depths. (Baby dragons say after level 30, Chaos hounds after say level 40, Ancient dragons after level 60, etc) Each mob had a chance of spawning on a level its just that you started from the hardest for that level and worked backwards until an allocated amount was found.
I dislike the idea of no teleport to town / back again ... Once you reach a certain level why should you have to trawl through trash mobs just to get to the challenges again ?
I think it would be really cool in Diablo 3 if they included some sort of optional, infinite dungeon.
I have to agree on this.
It is inevitable with a dungeon of ever increasing difficulty that there is a "stop". And that "stop" is sooner for some classes as others.
Yeah, but I don't see why there would be something wrong with that. It comes with the classes not being identical, and that's how it should be. Class A is specialized in this and class B in that, of course they won't be able to tackle the same situation with an identical outcome. Classes with the lack of ability to come far down in said dungeon would certainly have something else to weigh up for it, noone has been advocating this should be what the game revolves around. It's just something to keep us busy when we're done with the story. Stop crying and realize that it's your desicions while making/playing your character that'll sum up to what you got in the end.. IE. if you wanted a pure bossrunner you'd have one, if you wanted an pure area sweeper you'd have one. You can't have everything.
*Edit: Ah damn, thought his was the last post.
Yeah, but I don't see why there would be something wrong with that. It comes with the classes not being identical, and that's how it should be. Class A is specialized in this and class B in that, of course they won't be able to tackle the same situation with an identical outcome. Classes with the lack of ability to come far down in said dungeon would certainly have something else to weigh up for it, noone has been advocating this should be what the game revolves around. It's just something to keep us busy when we're done with the story. Stop crying and realize that it's your desicions while making/playing your character that'll sum up to what you got in the end.. IE. if you wanted a pure bossrunner you'd have one, if you wanted an pure area sweeper you'd have one. You can't have everything.
Here here!
Were all classes equally good at everything in D2? I should think not. MFchars other than sorceress were rare while other classes beat the crap out of sorc in PVP. If you want to go deep into the dungeon do it with the class that suits the purpose or see it as a challenge.
Here here!
Were all classes equally good at everything in D2? I should think not. MFchars other than sorceress were rare while other classes beat the crap out of sorc in PVP. If you want to go deep into the dungeon do it with the class that suits the purpose or see it as a challenge.
Yeah, thanks for repeating what I just said.
Yeah, thanks for repeating what I just said.
I gave you my support and tried to clarify further as there are many on this forum that misinterpret posts every chance they get.
Terribly sorry:hang:
I gave you my support and tried to clarify further as there are many on this forum that misinterpret posts every chance they get.
Terribly sorry:hang:
Haha, my bad then. Sorry. The "Here Here" part just sounded so condescendig that I just assumed you were too stupid to understand what I wrote. Obviously I was wrong! Kudos.
Kalyptein
26-07-2008, 01:28
It's a nice idea, but it would render everything else in the game pointless.
edit: To clarify - I assume that the lower levels of the infinty dungeon would have the best loot, and presumably you could just farm the easier levels as a method of progression instead of using the rest of the game.
SlechtWeerBeer
26-07-2008, 03:09
why would the first levels have the best loot? They have the lowest lvl monsters... O_o""
By lowest levels he means deeper. As in lower in the ground.
It's a nice idea, but it would render everything else in the game pointless.
edit: To clarify - I assume that the lower levels of the infinty dungeon would have the best loot, and presumably you could just farm the easier levels as a method of progression instead of using the rest of the game.
This could be prevented by simply offering better drop rates instead of new items; the lower you go into the dungeon the more uniques etc. will drop. However, the increase in monster difficulty means that you'd have to be already uber-geared or bring a team for the lowest levels... And it would take a long time to kill the harder monsters. It would be tricky to balance I'm sure, but it could be done so that the dungeon is on par with the rest of the game's areas in terms of loot vs. time invested; it would be more of a 'variety' thing. Bored of bashing Baal? Diluted delight for decimating Dia? Come to the Dungeon of Doom! ...And when you get tired of that, return to the overworld.
Ofc, the whole point is nearly moot when you consider that D2 consists mostly of Baal/Uberruns nowadays... :jig:
as for ammount of coding not much...just the first block to do the random generation and a counter that beefs the monsters up every level then just set it on an if then loop...once they get to the next level starts from the beginning with a 1 modifier, next a 2 and so on and so forth...that modifier can then be used to increase the stats of the monsters...granted it won't be a short loop but it won't be monsterous either...
And you can set it up like the ancients quest from d2, open a tp and you have to start over die start over...having exp rewarded for finishing entire levels not per monster...and you can't leave a level till you kill every monster...make you work for your keep...and if anything like a hammerdin appears in the game a monster should grab the hammer out of the air and smash his skull in and make us all feel alot better...
this kinda reminds me of the infinite dungeon in samurai warriors 2...with odd quests and challeneges on each floor that you only have a limited ammount of time to complete...i also want to add another game it reminds me of...Nethack...booya ascii games!!!
mince pies
27-07-2008, 01:46
Maybe make it so that once you die, you have to start over from the begining and maybe you cant use TPs period. That way you would have to live off of health globes.
That would actually be a good idea, and when you get down to the bottom you get some prizes, etc and then you have to walk all the way back up and the monsters respawn :)
theBanger
28-07-2008, 05:50
And you can set it up like the ancients quest from d2, open a tp and you have to start over die start over...having exp rewarded for finishing entire levels not per monster...and you can't leave a level till you kill every monster...make you work for your keep...
Sweet idea :thumbsup:
If you want to get to level 666 and get all the godly lootz you should have to earn it.
...and if anything like a hammerdin appears in the game a monster should grab the hammer out of the air and smash his skull in and make us all feel alot better...
Mua Ha Ha Ha Ha....FATALITY!!!
Maybe have two?
Tower to heaven
Pit to Hell
Idk about endless but just RIDICULOUSLY hard please. With reward at the end?
If they put in the endless dungeon i strongly believe it should be endgame only, after you've beaten everything. Only cus they was a problem with end game boredom in DII, there needs to be more endgame features in DIII is really the point.
Pretty much like the Cow Level in that its not part of the story, a side thing, just needs to be much much much much harder!!!
theBanger
29-07-2008, 21:04
Why isn't this thread in the Suggestions and Wish List forums?
I keep looking for it there only to find it's not.
An idea to the infinite dungeons.
The first level is made by transmuting 3 artifacts found in game dropped randomly by bosses.
Each level of the dungeon needs to be fully cleared out, Den of Evil style. When that happens, 3 mini-uber monsters (randomized extra strong monsters with their minons) spawn. Kill all three to drop 3 parts of a key
Collect all three parts and transmute them to open a portal to the next level of the dungeon. (lvl2 will drop keys to lvl 3 etc etc)
Where it gets interesting:
The portal is one way only. You may not use tps in it. Also, you may also only enter the tp if you are present when it spawns (AKA no calling in help/save and exit). Therefore, if you fail to get the keys for a level, you have to start over <- hence making it really hard to get to lower levels while providing a mechanism for saving progress.
Every xx levels, in addition to the high exp/typical high area level drops (miniubers drop like superuniques' after defeating the 3 mini-ubers for the level and collecting the keys, there will be an (optional) Super monster that ****s on stuff but either has really good drops or drops special items
We need this, make it happen captains.
They already have such a thing, in Warcraft, called Hero Siege.. Zzz boring...
Why not just have an infinite spawn of cows... milk'em all.. Zzz
Sein Schatten
05-08-2008, 23:21
They already have such a thing, in Warcraft, called Hero Siege.. Zzz boring...
Why not just have an infinite spawn of cows... milk'em all.. Zzz
I am way ahead of you. Spawn exp pots. You have to pick them up and drink them. For 100exp per bottle or something. :D
seriously, if you guys want a nice purposeful petition, lets get one going so they put this in. It would seriously make D3 amazing
JunkStory
06-08-2008, 04:09
this idea was suggested on the battle.net forums and have been well received
http://www.battle.net/forums/thread.aspx?fn=d3-general&t=323693&s=new&#new
Started another thread based on this to get support - and its been amazing
http://www.diablofans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13498
Just a quick run down, this dungeon should be infinite coz:
1) Provide a more fun alt to doing the 8578th baal run
2) Provide some form of bragging rights (mayb a counter on ur BNet toon showing highest lvl u made it to)
3) Solve once and for all the whine of 'my hammerdin solo'd uber&pandemonium diablos togethr on one testicle..cant u guys dish up some real punishment???
An alt idea (or maybe let's have both!) every1 liked was a survival area where random waves of mobs jus come at u, scaling up as well.
Now my guess is if Bashiok sees this, the argument will be "this wil take focus away from other game content / bots will overrun / wot a load of crap" . However i think something like this will really enhance playability & the challenge factor, without too much extra developing work involved, so why not? Some guys said the exp&item drop can be reduced, so if u wanna MF go do boss runs®ular game content, and come here for some challenge&ownage
The prob is if exp&MF is the same/gets better the further you go, d3 servers will just be swamped with 'infinite tower' runs , since the much higher kills(drops)/min count will mean higher returns for same time spent than any other area. Think it'll b better if d3 servers will have at least 3 categories of games going on: MF = boss runs, exp = some set scenario runs, achievement = infinite/survival runs
Really would prefer this to be infinite rather than just really long dungeon with an end (thats just regular diablo isnt it...), since otherwise its jus a matter of time b4 whole ranks of ppl going 'now what?' after lvl100. I can see this ruining lives tho~there'll def b diehard nuts sitting at 'lvl 23894763' a week down the line! XD
How bout each level being one big arena? Easy2program, and differentiates from regular play (=dungeon crawling).Let the mobs come to me instead of me running around looking for them (similar to mobs swarming over the barbarian in the gameplay vid's opening scenes). Open TP to next level once arena is clear.
If you guys like the idea, spread the seeds! Make posts on the other d3 forums!! Really want to see something come from this, if only just to make blizzard implement ONE community-suggested feature into the game! (anyone heard of that happening in d3 yet??)
"Infinite Hell?" Yea, basically we already have that, once you kill Baal.. I dunno what's so "new" and "entertaining" about this concept... [it already exists!]
Simply, just add an additional mode after you slay Baal! Call it, "Infinite Hell" at which point you will die regardless, screaming, having wasted 8,578 levels to figure this one out...
All you fellas need are tougher monsters.. an infinite dungeon already exists, it's exactly the same structure currently going on: the Normal->Nightmare->Hell progression (only Hell ain't Hell enuff!) and that is the failure of D2!
They failed to make the game[play] a challenge...
Things should become so challenging that it becomes impossible, that way you can no longer move forward... at which point you die... and it should be permenent, so people will be scared as Hell to enter that red portal. What have you to brag about, if there aint no consequence of your death? There needs to be some sort of Risk, to make things fun...
The fact that you don't have to recreate a game to keep going and that it doesn't get any more difficult after you kill Baal on Hell difficulty.
Maybe a group of friends will want to see how far they can go when they use teamwork after one of their friends gets stuck on that 8,578th level.
The fact that you don't have to recreate a game to keep going and that it doesn't get any more difficult after you kill Baal on Hell difficulty.
We're talking potentials aren't we? Add another difficulty (ie: Impossible).. The "dungeon" itself already exists, the dungeon is the whole game... but Impossible! See how far they get?!?
Do you see what Im trying to describe? This whole concept "infinite dungeon" is nothing more than what already exists of Diablo! Only Blizzard failed to own up, Hell mode, is too weak, if they had just made the damn mode more HELLISH... if that were so, people wouldnt get very far... Hence this whole argument for a "new" "dungeon," its pointless, just make the game more difficult!
We're talking potentials aren't we? Add another difficulty (ie: Impossible).. The "dungeon" itself already exists, the dungeon is the whole game... but Impossible! See how far they get?!?
Do you see what Im trying to describe? This whole concept "infinite dungeon" is nothing more than what already exists of Diablo! Only Blizzard failed to own up, Hell mode, is too weak, if they had just made the damn mode more HELLISH... if that were so, people wouldnt get very far... Hence this whole argument for a "new" "dungeon," its pointless, just make the game more difficult!
You're missing the point. If bliz set the difficulty statically, rest assured that in no time at all there'll b crowds sitting around aft completeing 'Ultimate Impossible Hell' with nothing to do. They made uber diablo, then pandemonium diablo coz regular game was too easy, now people whine how they can solo uber tristram with one finger...dynamically scaling up difficulty ensures there'll NEVER be a ceiling to your progress
It also offers a differing gameplay scenario, where mobs are constantly trying to swamp you rather than you running back&forth&getting lost in mazes finding things to kill. It adds replayability&value while needing almost 0 new content.
Also provides a universal standard to measure your char against, differentiating player progress - as opposed to whole armies sitting at lvl99 and completion of hell actV. Its a way to rank your skill/prowess/sad hours spent clicking a mouse...
Instances.
Please give us instances =(
Sein Schatten
06-08-2008, 15:35
Instances.
Please give us instances =(
Already are. They are called gamesessions or game. When you are done with the instance, create a new game.
They should definatly try to do something like this.
Already are. They are called gamesessions or game. When you are done with the instance, create a new game.
I meant as in sidequests that have nothing to do with the main story line but are really challenging.
Here would be my story:
"Congratulations: You are about the enter the 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999th level. No one has made it this far. Proceed to the ultimate challenge and reward"
I click on the red portal
"Connection interuppted"
Lots of good responses in this thread. I'm really surprised to see those other posts in the other two forums. Thanks for supporting this idea, everyone.
As far as difficulty progression, I think it should go something like this:
Level 1 has level 1 monsters, unique. Then for the next two levels increase the amount of uniques and champions but keep the monster level the same. Continue this pattern infinitely.
As for loot drops, I think that they should be similar to what you'd find during normal monster slaying. No better drops, but no worse. The incentive, loot-wise for making your way as deep is possible is that eventually the monsters will be able to drop any items in the game and the boss pack density would be greater and greater as you go.
Finally, you could have on the lower levels and maybe every 20 levels or so, clones of act bosses and super uniques with different, more random stats.
Imagine on the 200th level, opening a door to a room and you're confronted by three giant Act Bosses and their packs of minions, and they happen to have crazy immunities and beefed up special attacks. It'd be exciting. :)
I really like restricting access to town but you still have to make it fun and exciting, without taking away the convenience too much. Something like every few levels having the opportunity to stash a set number of items, and buy some limited stock supplies. Maybe the items become more and more limited as you go down until you can't buy supplies anymore.
Anyway, I hope this catches some notice and maybe gets implemented.
The prob is if exp&MF is the same/gets better the further you go, d3 servers will just be swamped with 'infinite tower' runs , since the much higher kills(drops)/min count will mean higher returns for same time spent than any other area. Think it'll b better if d3 servers will have at least 3 categories of games going on: MF = boss runs, exp = some set scenario runs, achievement = infinite/survival runs
I'd agree with that, I think that experience and drops shouldn't be as good as the best item and xp hunting areas, on any level, otherwise it'd probably be likely to just end up being all that anyone played. Anyway, if you have the items and a build good enough to get that far you probably don't have much use for most things that'll drop.
I'd have thought some sort of ranking or ladder system that showed how far down people had got would be enough to keep the players likely to reach the harder stages interested. People like to see there name high up on a ranking list, and it would then be something else to do apart from item finding, PvP or xp runs. I'd really just prefer it to be in the game as an extra challenge if it was implemented.
Well people will grind more with this idea since they basically get to fight nonstop.
It would be great as a side quest or something you can do to quickly level up before you handle a particular quest. However, I'm afraid that it might take away your sense of accomplishment when beating the game, seeing as how you get to grind your way to a high level and beat the game with ease, or it'll make the game seem more like those free MMO's with no REAL quests.
Well people will grind more with this idea since they basically get to fight nonstop.
It would be great as a side quest or something you can do to quickly level up before you handle a particular quest. However, I'm afraid that it might take away your sense of accomplishment when beating the game, seeing as how you get to grind your way to a high level and beat the game with ease, or it'll make the game seem more like those free MMO's with no REAL quests.
Yeah totally agree with this being side quest, similar to how Cow level was to D2, to avoid canon issues (else how do u justify monsters on lvl 868 being 3x harder to kill than diablo..).
That 2nd part isnt an issue, as you should only b able 2 enter this dungeon aft finishing last act on hell, when there's no more regular game content to do. Dont want this to detract from main game - this's only for ppl who's finished whole game and/or sitting on lvl99 twiddling their thumbs with nothing to do
Cheeseflys
07-08-2008, 05:17
What they should do, is make on level 100, every enemy is Uber Mephisto!!!!
(Just kidding)
But, I think 100 levels is good, and maybe on the 100th level, they put in the Uber Cow King, kinda like if he was in Uber Tristram, just on level 100 in some dungeon. :P
I think it would be really cool in Diablo 3 if they included some sort of optional, infinite dungeon. It would be much like the Dungeon from Diablo 1 but it would just keep going down and getting progressively harder.
Given, this dungeon is "infinite," and yet "gets progressively harder," there would exist a point at which no further progression is possible!? Once this occurs, you'd be stuck with the same predicament, as what currently occurs after slaying BAAL for the 8,578th time!
How can something get "progressively harder" yet never end? The logic, it just doesn't exist... especially with a level limitation of 99...
When Baal dies, the game is trying to tell us something... Instead of the game ending, like it's supposed to, basically people keep clicking, relentlessly to see how fast their fingers cleave? Then, have a world ranking to compare their finger densities... geez ok.. nevermind, I entered the wrong topic, have fun! Sounds splendid!
andytheavs
07-08-2008, 07:20
I absolutely love this idea but executing it would be tricky. As has been said, this kind of thing could turn into the cow level of DII, which would not be good. I can't say that having lvl 99999...999 monsters that are harder than any of the end-of-act bosses bothers me, especially looking back at DII's ubertristram. To me, multiplayer doesn't really count as part of the story/plot line anyway. I like the idea of basing a ladder off the infinite dungeon so that how far down you get is a status level.
To prevent this from being cow level II, (which I'm sure will be in DIII anyway) experience should have some sort of 'limiting returns' effect. That way, it can be an option for leveling but at some point the experience won't be worthwhile, and the reason for continuing will be to just to get to a lower level. Addressing concerns about servers not being able to handle the hundreds of game with infinite dungeons. . . once you go down to the next level, you can't go back. This way, the servers see the infinite dungeon as 1 level.
Finally, I think that you should not be able to go to town and return. It should be a one shot deal per game. So, you get to lvl 21, decide your done, go to town, and that's it. No more infinite dungeon in that particular game. Also, going to the next level is achieved by killing every monster on the present level. Also also, items that are found should not go into your inventory. When you pick them up, they could go into a stash-like chest in town or be directly sold to merchants to prevent running out of space.
Wow, ok I'm done.
To prevent this from being cow level II, (which I'm sure will be in DIII anyway) experience should have some sort of 'limiting returns' effect. That way, it can be an option for leveling but at some point the experience won't be worthwhile, and the reason for continuing will be to just to get to a lower level.
Finally, I think that you should not be able to go to town and return. It should be a one shot deal per game. ...
... Also also, items that are found should not go into your inventory. When you pick them up, they could go into a stash-like chest in town or be directly sold to merchants to prevent running out of space.
Fully agree. Bashiok commented today how he felt original cow level broke the game coz every1 was running it. Solution: lowered the exp&drop rates in 1.10. Same situation here, this run should be done for 'fun' / achievement.
Looking at other forums' posts on this inifinite idea, the majority seems to prefer the one-way street: TPing in dungeon should reset progres. With items, could also be cool for an 'item portal' every 10 levels or so to tele ur loot to stash.
A sadistic idea I havnt seen mentioned yet is: how bout u lose all exp&item gained in the dungeon if u/whole-party die inside? You only get to keep them if u/at-least-one-surviving-party-member opt to tele out AFTER CLEARING A LVL. This would
1) Add excitement&tension. "Weighing my skills, can I try finishing next wave and risk losing all, or should take safe route out by now". If u save&exit mid-level u get nothing
2) Add apprehension of death, which hasnt been a part of diablo really since anytime u feel scared can simply save&exit, no penalty. At least make this ONE area actually feel dangerous to fight in.
3) Reduce bots? i assume bot logic is 'if health < x%, save&exit'. if that happens here the botter gains nothing.
4) Increase the multiplayer incentive which bliz is trying so hard to do. Bigger party = bigger chance of one person surviving to enable party escape with loot. Mite null the #2 point tho, if party of bots r used...
I don't think you'd have to make sacrifices (at least in loot) to prevent abuse.
Simply do as the previous post said, no going from dungeon to town to dungeon again. If you leave you leave, it's closed.
Let the loot get better progressively the deeper you get, so maybe for the first 10 levels it's pretty low loot 10-20 it's higher loot, 20-30 more etc, That way to actually get the good loot out of it you have to put in a decent time investment, potentially more than simply killing enemies your own level along with an act boss.
Starving_Poet
07-08-2008, 19:04
I think 100 floors would be neat. You can TP out of it, but when you go back, you always start at the first floor. At the bottom? "We're Sorry, Diablo is in another Dungeon."
Think Lufia 2.
mince pies
07-08-2008, 22:53
I think a good suggestion would be a "Save" option in the Esc menu, like in DI where you could save and when you logged back on you were in the same place, so if you got to say the 100th level and you logged off, you could save where you were and when you log back in later you'd still be there.
JunkStory
08-08-2008, 00:31
I think a good suggestion would be a "Save" option in the Esc menu, like in DI where you could save and when you logged back on you were in the same place, so if you got to say the 100th level and you logged off, you could save where you were and when you log back in later you'd still be there.
Game-saves would not work for multiplayer.
mince pies
08-08-2008, 01:14
I know they wouldn't, which is why I'm suggesting that it's only for the infinite dungeon (if there is one)
I don't think you'd have to make sacrifices (at least in loot) to prevent abuse.
Simply do as the previous post said, no going from dungeon to town to dungeon again. If you leave you leave, it's closed.
Let the loot get better progressively the deeper you get, so maybe for the first 10 levels it's pretty low loot 10-20 it's higher loot, 20-30 more etc, That way to actually get the good loot out of it you have to put in a decent time investment, potentially more than simply killing enemies your own level along with an act boss.
Yeah def shud b one-way road to hell only, according to majority opinion. The consensus also seems to favor some reward loot at set intervals. Tho IMO, the best loot should come from random quests
http://www.diablofans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13816
Preventing set boss runs and maybe eliminating MF bots. Also thinking if MF increasing according to num of kills (50 kills = +10% MF buff) etc would work..will need a cap else ppl jus run dungeon all day. Also can implement a random 'trigger' to get to next level (click on NPC, operate lever, etc) which should render bots useless? I'm assuming bots cant be programmed to activate random triggers or am I wrong?
Make it black and white with forced 100% contrast!! That would be awesome !
The great thing about the infinite dungeon idea is that it would almost create a game within a game. If it had bosses strewn about, with one hardcore boss at the bottom, it could be made to resemble Diablo I within Diablo III. Blizzard is creative, hopefully they will do something like this to enhance the overall game...
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