View Full Version : What do you think of scam victims?
What do you guys think of scam victims.
Since I always had an idea of refunding a trade, like if you been scammed by trading, you could always do a "trade back" as long as you do it 5minutes or earlier after the trade.
I do feel sorry for them a bit, but I don't believe anything should be done. I imagine doing your five minute idea would be very hard to implement.
Gigashadow
22-07-2008, 01:26
I was never scammed by anything (not that scammers didn't try), and most of the time people get scammed if they are young or if they are not watching what they are doing, so I am not too sorry for them. Either way, it's just a game.
Nice avy, WzWz.
SlechtWeerBeer
22-07-2008, 02:49
If they implement this 5-minute rule, they better make sure the item is untouched.
Say, I buy an unidentified Leviathan, and it happens to have a terrible roll. I shouldn't be able to "reroll" the trade.
That aside, it doesn't feel right to be able to just trade back without the other noticing, or whatever.
And something else just popped up in my mind: What if they don't have whatever you gave for it anymore? I.e., you paid 10k, and they dump it on the ground for 5 minutes long in some deep dark hole?
There should be a timer like the skill recharge delay between the time you hit the accept button and the time it takes for the transaction to complete. This is the same as handing the item to the trader only to realize that it's the incorrect item, giving you the chance to cancel the trade and put in the right item. If this feature is used, all items involved would be suspended for however long until the trade can be commenced .
pantherus
22-07-2008, 03:20
The idea has merit, but would be hard to implement; and also would annoy people wanting quick trades...
Apocalypse
22-07-2008, 03:20
lol i remember when d2 first launched, there was a scam people would pull where they kept picking up and dropping the item in the trade window then once the person said ok they quickly switch the item and click ok and the other people seeing a item looking the same just clicked yes and got some pile of crap lol. that was the funniest thing when people tried that with me. i am guessing many fell for it though since bliz patched it so it would not work
edit: i realize i didnt answer the question. i do not feel bad for them at all. its a life learning experience and if they learn it in a game with no real consequence, then they are the better for it
...would annoy people wanting quick trades...
These people would be examining the items they are receiving in trade, I don't think the timer should be too long to interfere with quick trades. Just maybe 5 seconds or so between the time you place the item in and the time you can hit the accept button to allow a bit of time to identify the item correctly. Con men prey on people's haste.
Deuterium
22-07-2008, 03:48
lol i remember when d2 first launched, there was a scam people would pull where they kept picking up and dropping the item in the trade window then once the person said ok they quickly switch the item and click ok and the other people seeing a item looking the same just clicked yes and got some pile of crap lol. that was the funniest thing when people tried that with me. i am guessing many fell for it though since bliz patched it so it would not work
edit: i realize i didnt answer the question. i do not feel bad for them at all. its a life learning experience and if they learn it in a game with no real consequence, then they are the better for it
Ahaha so funny you should mention that. Someone tried that on me a couple of days ago, tried switching out Tal Rasha's mask with a ****ing Cathan's Visage. At first I thought they were genuinely joking - no one could be that thick...right?
Anyways after I found out he was serious I told him where he could shove it ;)
I'm going to take the Epicurean stance on this and say "Wow glad I didn't fall for something like that."
Recently someone tried what I thought at the time was a very intricate scam fishing for my account info. There were 2 druids who started talking to each other about this "ranking" system that was in the game; one of them mentioned that he had rank 23 to which the other responded "awesome". I shrugged it off and kept playing thinking that they were referring to the ladder, until they asked me what my rank was. As I do not play ladder characters I respond that I don't have one. Now this is where things got a bit suspicious; they tell me that everyone has a rank, I taking a sniff at the bait ask "how do I find out?" And then they tell me to just type in "/dnd accnt pass" and then the game will add up my characters and gear and spit out a number. At first I didn't realize because of the context of the conversation that /dnd is Do Not Disturb (it has been a LONG time since I played on bnet). I ask what dnd stands for and one of them responds with "I dont know Diablo something something." Me being suspiscious already of this supposed ranking and at least mildly intelligent (slightly above daft at this point) type in just /dnd and discover the scope of this scam. I quickly called them Jackasses and left but I was still impressed by the double team efforts and that they probably get a few of the newer players to fall for it.
In the context of this game scamming sucks but it happens. Just like Items and gold being bought for $$, however when scammed we can learn from the mistake and not allow it to happen again.
Wussenbol
22-07-2008, 04:33
Really depends on the situation. By the way, it's not rare for such a scam victim to fall for the same trickery again, and again. These people are so stupid beyond understanding. I am no scammer by the way, but I have spoken to professional scammers who explained me how their victims behaved.
P.S.: I'm talking about pasword stealers of course. For duped item sellers (mostly also part-time pasword stealers), well, you can't trade runes or rings without knowing their legit. Which noob trades identified items anyway? unless you trade within a huge closed legit community, and then you neither can be truly sure.
If they implement this 5-minute rule, they better make sure the item is untouched.
Say, I buy an unidentified Leviathan, and it happens to have a terrible roll. I shouldn't be able to "reroll" the trade.
That aside, it doesn't feel right to be able to just trade back without the other noticing, or whatever.
And something else just popped up in my mind: What if they don't have whatever you gave for it anymore? I.e., you paid 10k, and they dump it on the ground for 5 minutes long in some deep dark hole?
I completely agree with you on this, that there are flaws in that 5min idea.
But the concept is still the same, that you should just a CHANCE of having a refund or retrade if something were to happen.
JunkStory
22-07-2008, 06:45
Scam victim once, shame on scammer. Scam victim twice, shame on victim.
If Diablo III will be one account per game key (if my speculations about B.net 2.0 are accurate) then perhaps we will see fewer people attempting to scam people for fear of retribution. It's a much more serious case if someone steals another person's account if it's the only one they can make, so maybe Blizzard would take a more active role in securing a player's confidence so that the people they are dealing with aren't going to use some unscrupulous methods to try and take advantage of the unsuspecting victim. They didn't need to worry about retribution before because "Blizzard is not responsible for stolen accounts" in Diablo II. Hopefully this will be different with the advanced Battle.net under development.
scamming is handled very well in WoW...
I think a much better idea is just to design a trading system where it is much harder to trick people into trading for the wrong item. A confirmation screen maybe, or they could have mods with the ability to reverse a trade if they see that a scam has taken place.
Also, imagine if you traded for an item you'd been searching for for weeks, only to have the other party change their mind at the last minute after the trade had been completed.
HeroQuest
22-07-2008, 11:09
There should be a timer like the skill recharge delay between the time you hit the accept button and the time it takes for the transaction to complete.
Well, thats why they have the "tick" box, so you can check what youre trading, and then accept it. If youre too impatient to look, or just plain dumb, then its your own fault.
And yeah, i feel sorry for someone when they get scammed, but at the same time, if you use common sense, it wont happen to you
If Diablo III will be one account per game key (if my speculations about B.net 2.0 are accurate) then perhaps we will see fewer people attempting to scam people for fear of retribution. It's a much more serious case if someone steals another person's account if it's the only one they can make, so maybe Blizzard would take a more active role in securing a player's confidence so that the people they are dealing with aren't going to use some unscrupulous methods to try and take advantage of the unsuspecting victim. They didn't need to worry about retribution before because "Blizzard is not responsible for stolen accounts" in Diablo II. Hopefully this will be different with the advanced Battle.net under development.
Bnet never was a one account per cdkey and probably never will, why should I not be able to change my account if that's what I wish? That's besides the point anyway since any upgrade of Bnet will have to be backwards compatible with the current Bnet so what you're suggestion can't happen.
What your suggesting would hurt the number of people that could play also, many people where I live play D2 at internet cafes and I assure you there are many more players than there are cdkeys in the place, also what about people that live in the same house they'd either be forced to buy 2 games or share an account, neither is fair as far as I'm concerned.
ONTOPIC: People that get scammed by item switching deserve it, the trade system is made so that if you clicked trade and the other guy switched the item your button would turn white again and you'll have to press it again. Even trade hacks are pretty weak and easy to spot, but falling for one at least gives you an excuse.
In all the years I played D2 I was never scammed either by hacks or item switchers, when I saw that somebody item switched one me I would even make fun of him and make him lose time by setting the items in my inventory in such a way that I couldn't take his item and I'd press trade, after the trade canceled because lack of space I'd say stuff like "What? You don't want to trade?" or "Make room ffs!".
Scammers were so easy to avoid I can't believe people actually fell for it.
I don't have much sympathy for most scam victims, just the ones who get scammed with the aid of hacks. The ones who fall for stuff like 'my trade screen is broken u drop item outside of town' are pretty pathetic.
Haccubus
22-07-2008, 16:21
One of the biggest scams that happened to me was when Sorcs could zap items up from inside town. Now I was, by all meaning of the word, a noob at the time and I didn't know Sorcs even had such a skill (This happened to my first char, a barb). Well some guy dropped some cool *** unique on one side of a wall and I dropped some cool rare weapon I had and we were going to trade that way. He zapped my weapon, picked up his unique and LOL'd me.
Looking back it wasn't a big deal, I was probably like level 25 and the rare item I had was utter junk. But it was the best item I had found at the time. The interesting thing is that this guy would have known how crappy the item was, but stole it anyway! He probably just dropped it in some other game or vendor'd it for 5k gold... Some people are just mean to be mean
One of the biggest scams that happened to me was when Sorcs could zap items up from inside town. Now I was, by all meaning of the word, a noob at the time and I didn't know Sorcs even had such a skill (This happened to my first char, a barb). Well some guy dropped some cool *** unique on one side of a wall and I dropped some cool rare weapon I had and we were going to trade that way. He zapped my weapon, picked up his unique and LOL'd me.
Looking back it wasn't a big deal, I was probably like level 25 and the rare item I had was utter junk. But it was the best item I had found at the time. The interesting thing is that this guy would have known how crappy the item was, but stole it anyway! He probably just dropped it in some other game or vendor'd it for 5k gold... Some people are just mean to be mean
That's why trades made by walking around the wall are made only by characters lower than lvl9. High level characters also had the ability to use amus with tele charges, don't think nobody fell for that, it was a classic.
Hahaha very funny topic.
I remember when I was young and naive... well I learned from that!
But now it seems that noobs never learn... so no pity for them!
I remembered my first scam...
there was a guy saying he'll trade me this item but it was one of those items (think it was a torch) that couldn't be traded through screen and had to be dropped (I was a low level newb that time), I did feel a bit of suspicion, but I went for it anyways since he only wanted my Ondal's Wisdom for it (if something were to happen I wouldn't lose too much). He told me to practice the trade with him by running around the wall to pick it up at same pace, then once he told me it was ok, we both dropped the item then he immediately put on speed equips, picked up his torch, ran for mine and got it. -.-
Funny how he can have a torch but wants an ondal's wisdom...
Apocalypse
22-07-2008, 18:59
its funny how pathetic people are in d2, i used to actually hold items for complete strangers so they could mule. most of the time they would tell me "i know you wont be here when i get back but whatever" yet i always was. its just an item in a game.
its just an item in a game.
By that same logic, they think they can steal it. It seems there are two kinds of people in this world... Those who steal ingame items - and those who don't.
I often don't get the 'it's only a game' stuff, anyway. All property is 'virtual' in a sense, since we will all die one day (hopefully there'll just be a Ladder reset :scratchchin:). How one gets one's pleasure when alive shouldn't matter imo (as long as others are not hurt ofc); I bet that when attitudes change we are going to see a whole lot of court cases concerning game stuff - accounts, items and such. Imagine if someone stole your Enigma... And you could sue the guy? Sue his ***, that would make my day! :thumbup:
As for the scams - some people are stupid, yes, but scammers are evil and lame which is far worse imo. So yes I do feel pity, at least for first timers. As the saying goes, fool me once, shame on - shame on you. Fool me - you can't get fooled again. :wink:
Torvaldr
22-07-2008, 21:39
Scammers are just another type of bully or thief. Life may be about learning a lesson, but laughing at, or blaming the victim, is approving of the bully and thief. You are really telling them go ahead and rip people off. Anyone who gets ripped off deserves what they get. My feeling is people with that attitude are either scammers themselves, or wanna be scammers. Life it self may not be fair, but there is a difference between "Life" being unfair, and "People" being unfair.
Example: You are a farmer with a ripe crop in the field. The night before harvest lightning hits the field and it burns to the ground. This is life being unfair.
Reset: You are a farmer with a ripe crop in the field. The night before harvest an arsonist pours gas on your crop and sets it aflame and it burns to the ground. This a person being unfair. Scammers, thieves, bullies, and wannabes of these types are the exact kind of people that makes the "World" unfair.
Instead of glamorizing, praising, and supporting them, you should be working to help eliminate them. Life is about learning lessons, but it also about leaving the world better than it was when you die. Do you want people to remember you with disdain or with respect?
Now within this game we all play how do you want to be remembered? As the rip off artist that screws everyone? Or as someone we would all like at our back?
People had all the tools they need to never get scammed, they just need to use them. If in these conditions they do get scammed that means they were fools and fools need to learn a lesson. Scamming just like any part of Diablo 2 requires skill, not everyone can be a scammer and not all scammers are actually any good, I respect people that have a skill.
Item switching is not actually illegal, if you fall for it you're the fool. Learn from it and you won't be a fool anymore.
...blaming the victim...
To be fair, it should read "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me and you". And it's not really that hard to avoid scamming... I realize it's about the principle, but humans are always unfair, more or less; it's human nature. If you run around at night in some shady Nicaraguan alley carrying a sign "I have money please come rob me!" in the local language (as an extreme example), all alone and drunk like a fish, then yes people are unfair if they rob you but you are also being unfair to yourself imo. The robbers are guilty but so are you, to an extent - at least in practice. In theory you are blameless, yes. You know there is another saying, "in theory theory and practice are the same thing; in practice they are not."
I think the question in the end boils down to - can people be blamed for their stupidity?
Edit: I anticipate someone is going to bring rape victims into this, so as a preemptive: maybe 'guilty' is not the right word. You are innocent, but brought it on yourself to an extent (being stupid/clicking without checking/running naked down alleyways). Mind you, this does not make the rapist/scammer any less guilty/scum of the Earth. Just use common sense that's all I'm saying.
Scammers are just another type of bully or thief. Life may be about learning a lesson, but laughing at, or blaming the victim, is approving of the bully and thief. You are really telling them go ahead and rip people off. Anyone who gets ripped off deserves what they get. My feeling is people with that attitude are either scammers themselves, or wanna be scammers. Life it self may not be fair, but there is a difference between "Life" being unfair, and "People" being unfair.
Example: You are a farmer with a ripe crop in the field. The night before harvest lightning hits the field and it burns to the ground. This is life being unfair.
Reset: You are a farmer with a ripe crop in the field. The night before harvest an arsonist pours gas on your crop and sets it aflame and it burns to the ground. This a person being unfair. Scammers, thieves, bullies, and wannabes of these types are the exact kind of people that makes the "World" unfair.
Instead of glamorizing, praising, and supporting them, you should be working to help eliminate them. Life is about learning lessons, but it also about leaving the world better than it was when you die. Do you want people to remember you with disdain or with respect?
Now within this game we all play how do you want to be remembered? As the rip off artist that screws everyone? Or as someone we would all like at our back?
:thumbup:
Quit being so arrogant so many of you. Easy to pass judgment now isn't it. So because YOU do not fall for a scam, therefore everyone who does is a "noob" or deserves it. Do you people NOT realize this game is played by many young people who generally do not have the age, education, intelligence, maturity, etc.. to know better? I think it is sad and pathetic that people scam, and I think it is equally sad and pathetic there is this attitude of "lol...noob deserved it". There are also many players that come to this game unknowing at first that D2 is played by 99% of losers, so can you blame them that so may *$&@ play this game? Yes almost every scam is pathetic in it's blatant nature, but people seem to assume that young kids are capable of the same understanding that adults have. If some can not figure that out, then my god I hope you do not have children.
Wonder why D2 can be such a miserable experience? For me the scammers play very little part, but the general attitude of people who play this game is just downright pathetic.
I have to say outright, I believe this really goes to your character and morals if you are incapable of having sympathy for others. FYI, this is not a character trait that gets you far in life, and while this may only be a game, it still represents who you are as a person, to which sadly most are people I would care to have nothing to do with in life.
Quit being so arrogant so many of you.
You start with this than you go on a holier-than-thou rant, the irony knows no end.
Lets be honest here, most people that get scammed by item switching isn't because they are not mature enough or whatever irrelevent excuse people try to think up, it's because of greed. Yes you read exactly, the scammers usually atract victims by offering as a price something much more valuable than your offer as such when you see that he actually clicked that trade button you're in a hurry to press it also because you thought you tricked him into making a bad deal. Most scammed people fell for it not for any other reason but their own greed, you white knights probably won't like this but it's the cold hard truth.
If a deal seems too good to be true, it usually is.
Gigashadow
23-07-2008, 01:55
Scammers are just another type of bully or thief...QFT. I hate people like that. They live off others in games, they do the same in real life, often times...Most scammed people fell for it not for any other reason but their own greed, you white knights probably won't like this but it's the cold hard truth.If you can confuse the excitement of a child at seeing a good item being offered to him with the greed of a mature person, I hope you never have kids.
You start with this than you go on a holier-than-thou rant, the irony knows no end.
Lets be honest here, most people that get scammed by item switching isn't because they are not mature enough or whatever irrelevent excuse people try to think up, it's because of greed. Yes you read exactly, the scammers usually atract victims by offering as a price something much more valuable than your offer as such when you see that he actually clicked that trade button you're in a hurry to press it also because you thought you tricked him into making a bad deal. Most scammed people fell for it not for any other reason but their own greed, you white knights probably won't like this but it's the cold hard truth.
If a deal seems too good to be true, it usually is.
Wow. You're accusing people who got scammed of being greedy... Just wow.
I guess there's nothing else to say about this other than you're wrong. I remember I got scammed twice in D2c before they implemented the auto uncheck when the other person changes the inventory, so they would (probably) use a macro to move their item and then check the trade button at the same time.
Obviously I was just greedy and wanted to trade, because clearly that's greed, not being happy with what you have right? I should have just not been trading because it's too greedy. I mean, if people out there weren't scamming people then what would the game devolve into?!?
You honestly sound like someone who has done a significant amount of scamming to be defending it so vehemently.
Wow. You're accusing people who got scammed of being greedy... Just wow.
I guess there's nothing else to say about this other than you're wrong. I remember I got scammed twice in D2c before they implemented the auto uncheck when the other person changes the inventory, so they would (probably) use a macro to move their item and then check the trade button at the same time.
Obviously I was just greedy and wanted to trade, because clearly that's greed, not being happy with what you have right? I should have just not been trading because it's too greedy. I mean, if people out there weren't scamming people then what would the game devolve into?!?
You honestly sound like someone who has done a significant amount of scamming to be defending it so vehemently.
Before the auto uncheck than you have a point, but than I didn't say anything about the time before the autouncheck, actually I'd bet quite a bit of money that most people on this site haven't even played back than. Hell from the posts on this forum I'd be hard pressed to find a pre 1.10 player.
Let me make it perfectly clear, I have never even tried to trade scam anyone, EVER. Your personal attack trying to discredit my argument completely fails.
Yes players are greedy and they jump at the chance to make a trade perfectly knowing the other guy would be losing big. All the people I ever saw that got trade switched on and I have seen a few even in RL weren't kids, they just got bit by their own greed. The scammers knew what they were doing and left the game richer.
If they weren't in such a hurry to click on the trade button when they thought they'd be robbing the other guy in the trade they wouldn't have lost the item. One time I was at an internet cafe near a friend that was trading, the trade was some rubbish for unid shako, I told him even before he entered the game that he should be careful, this didn't look right. Long story short he already pressed the trade button when I was half way into shouting he should rehover over the item in the trade window... he got a white cap. Greed made him sloppy, he wasn't some child and he wasn't new to D2 or to trading in general, his greed on the spot blinded his reasoning and he got burned.
5zigen I am sorry for you if you think all scam victims are little kids, that by the way shouldn't be playing an M rated game to begin with, or that you got scammed pre-autouncheck, but I'd say at least 95% of people that played D2 have never played a version of the game that was without autouncheck.
OverUsedChewToy
23-07-2008, 02:59
I was scammed once, I "drop-traded" my trang-oul's armor for a hellfire torch. Stupid thing is I actually had a torch in my inventory at the time :crazyeyes:. So, he took my armor and the torch and disappeared :jig:
I was stupid, yes, but I was just playing casually and was extremely tired and so forth. Good thing I didn't exactly need the item.
This kind of scamming is actually fascinating in terms of zero-sum games, it seems when people see no repercussions, there is no payoff for being trustworthy in adaptive terms, so you get plenty of people willing to betray and back-stab and so forth as a game strategy. It makes you think how many people in real-life just put on a facade due to social consensus, as somewhat of a cynic I'd say quite a few :scratchchin:
For those saying it should be ignored because it's "human nature". That it may be (or may not) but even human nature is tentative and is subject to change, provided the right methods are employed. Nothing about people is completely unchangeable.
Personally, though, I could never be a scammer since I see no value in doing so in a game of all things. I play to have fun and earn my way as the game was designed but I guess for some people they find their meaning in having powerful items for its own sake.
pantherus
23-07-2008, 04:18
Frankly - I'm more with cbr on this. Yes - there is an element of sympathy to go with scamees, nobody likes being the recipient of unfair play - be it trade scamming, PK'ing (esp in hardcore), or even drop-grabbing in a co-op game.
In saying that, there is a real element of truth in the comment made that the majority of trade scams feed off the greed of the victims. Just like the Nigerian Bank scam (and all those like it) which count on a person's greed to overcome their common sense; as well as an implicit trusting of others.
In a situation where annonyminity is their greatest weapon, it's usually a good idea to never implicitly trust others - and unfortunately, experience is usually the only tool for learning this lesson.
Now obviously there have been many people who were scammed through no real fault of their own (i.e. hacks used, etc) but I think you'll find that the majority of people caught by this were duped by people exploiting their greed and trust. I'm not supporting the scammers here, and certainly not backing their actions - but the point we're making is that, for the scamee, protecting themselves from most of these scams is as simple as keeping your common sense switched on, and keeping your greed in check. I won't go so far as to say "well it's their own dumb fault, if they're that stupid then they deserve it" cause that's way too harsh; but people in that position shouldn't expect a flurry of sympathy from anyone.
Next point - yes, there are many kids playing who aren't mature enough to spot these scams; there is no denying that. However I have 2 rebuttals for that point of defense:
1. Whilst many of the scammees are kids, so too many of the scammers themselves are kids, for whom the concept of right and wrong (especially in an environment where the idea that that other character you're (effectively) stealing from is actually another person, just like you) is difficult for them to comprehend in a conscientious way; and
2. The game is rated M for many reasons; not just that there is violence and animated gore (etc), but also that the level of interaction with other human beings is more than many pre-teen children are not developed for - therefore they shouldn't be there in the first place. It's like a kid who sneaks onto a fairground ride or otherwise bypasses the "you must be this tall to ride" signs, and then gets in danger when they slip out of the ride or something - yes the operators are responsible for allowing them on, but the kid broke the rules and did something they shouldn't have; they have to accept a fair amount of responsibility for putting themselves in danger as well.
Finally - can we try to have a reasonable debate here without loud proclamations of "since you're disagreeing with me, you must be a scammer!!!"; since not only do they insult the person, but saying things like that also discredit your own argument since by resorting to personal (and unsubstantiated) attacks, you cause others to question your own credibility. Let's keep this mature shall we people?
Before the auto uncheck than you have a point, but than I didn't say anything about the time before the autouncheck, actually I'd bet quite a bit of money that most people on this site haven't even played back than. Hell from the posts on this forum I'd be hard pressed to find a pre 1.10 player.
FYI, many of us take long breaks, or simply quit the game for a few years. Both my brother and I go back to the day when D1 was released. Forum register date is meaningless, for many of us simply lose track of our accounts.
5zigen I am sorry for you if you think all scam victims are little kids, that by the way shouldn't be playing an M rated game to begin with, or that you got scammed pre-autouncheck, but I'd say at least 95% of people that played D2 have never played a version of the game that was without autouncheck.
Yes, because underage children never smoke, or drink alcohol, or play M rated video games. Because the parents of course NEVER buy their children M-rated games. Do you even have children? Do you know how freakin impossible it is for parents to keep their kids away from these game? Hate to break the news, but if all M-rated games were purchased soley for adults, companies like Blizzard would be out of business in a flash. This is not 1994 when the average gamer was 35+. Games are now made for, and target to young people.
Mcwhopper
23-07-2008, 14:11
I was scammed once, I "drop-traded" my trang-oul's armor for a hellfire torch. Stupid thing is I actually had a torch in my inventory at the time :crazyeyes:. So, he took my armor and the torch and disappeared :jig:
I was stupid, yes, but I was just playing casually and was extremely tired and so forth. Good thing I didn't exactly need the item.
This kind of scamming is actually fascinating in terms of zero-sum games, it seems when people see no repercussions, there is no payoff for being trustworthy in adaptive terms, so you get plenty of people willing to betray and back-stab and so forth as a game strategy. It makes you think how many people in real-life just put on a facade due to social consensus, as somewhat of a cynic I'd say quite a few :scratchchin:
For those saying it should be ignored because it's "human nature". That it may be (or may not) but even human nature is tentative and is subject to change, provided the right methods are employed. Nothing about people is completely unchangeable.
Personally, though, I could never be a scammer since I see no value in doing so in a game of all things. I play to have fun and earn my way as the game was designed but I guess for some people they find their meaning in having powerful items for its own sake.
People put on masks offline, online the mask can go off. If it wasn't for social repercussions, what you would see online is what you would see in the streets. Remember New Orleans? Mobs? Plundering? Take away the repercussion and you can see what most people are made of.
I personally think it's utterly disgusting to scam someone, making a good trade is one thing, but willingly trying to scam someone is just too sad for words. Especially since it's a damn game. Making money via scams is theft, but stealing some 14 year olds items via ingame scanning is just sad to the bone.
Yes, because underage children never smoke, or drink alcohol, or play M rated video games. Because the parents of course NEVER buy their children M-rated games. Do you even have children? Do you know how freakin impossible it is for parents to keep their kids away from these game? Hate to break the news, but if all M-rated games were purchased soley for adults, companies like Blizzard would be out of business in a flash. This is not 1994 when the average gamer was 35+. Games are now made for, and target to young people.
Oh? And you have the statistics to back that up do you?
What parents do and what they buy for their kids is THEIR responsability, not Blizzard's. The games were most clearly rated M, which means shops couldn't sell it to kids so parents had to buy it for them. Games that are made for a slightly older audience has the social interaction that goes with it, if parents want their kids exposed to that it's their choice and their responsability. It isn't Blizzard's job to hold your hand when you cry because the big bad man tricked you, they gave you all the tools necessary to defend yourself agains them, that you don't know about them or aren't mature enough to know how to use them isn't Blizzard's fault, they designed the game with an M rating. Kids need to go cry to their parents, maybe next time they'll think twice before buying an M rated game.
Oh? And you have the statistics to back that up do you?
What parents do and what they buy for their kids is THEIR responsability, not Blizzard's. The games were most clearly rated M, which means shops couldn't sell it to kids so parents had to buy it for them. Games that are made for a slightly older audience has the social interaction that goes with it, if parents want their kids exposed to that it's their choice and their responsability. It isn't Blizzard's job to hold your hand when you cry because the big bad man tricked you, they gave you all the tools necessary to defend yourself agains them, that you don't know about them or aren't mature enough to know how to use them isn't Blizzard's fault, they designed the game with an M rating. Kids need to go cry to their parents, maybe next time they'll think twice before buying an M rated game.
Who said anything about this being Blizzard's fault that losers pick this game up? The whole point was that some want to simply just give theses losers a free ride and blame the victim. Well, fine people want to do that, be my guest, I guess it just shows a lack of morals and character. You just want to put responsibility and blame on everyone else except the scammer. Sorry but I have a really hard time believing you are not one.
Also, you obviously know nothing about children, raising teenagers, or parenting do you? Come back in 20-30 years and tell us how you kept your kids from R-rated movies and M-rated games, I am sure it will be good for a laugh.
p.s. statistics...sorry thought this was common knowledge, I am not your teacher, go look it up for yourself to see.
Who said anything about this being Blizzard's fault that losers pick this game up? The whole point was that some want to simply just give theses losers a free ride and blame the victim. Well, fine people want to do that, be my guest, I guess it just shows a lack of morals and character. You just want to put responsibility and blame on everyone else except the scammer. Sorry but I have a really hard time believing you are not one.
I'll blame the scammer if he uses hacks to trade with, if what he used are the other guys emotions against him, than you should learn to control your emotions. As for you not believing I'm not a scammer, I couldn't give a rats *** what you believe, I know that I never scammed anyone so your accusations leave me cold and only makes you and your argument seem empty to me. Just because I don't agree with you you think I'm a scammer, the logic is simply laughable, go back to debating school please.
Also, you obviously know nothing about children, raising teenagers, or parenting do you? Come back in 20-30 years and tell us how you kept your kids from R-rated movies and M-rated games, I am sure it will be good for a laugh.
So because it's hard that somehow absolves the parents of their responsability? The point you're trying to argue is inane, make sure you know what you're arguing before replying.
p.s. statistics...sorry thought this was common knowledge, I am not your teacher, go look it up for yourself to see.
Well I guess it isn't comman knowledge, mind linking me to them? If you won't I won't accept those made up numbers your regurgitated. Learn to back up your words or don't type them.
For those saying it should be ignored because it's "human nature". That it may be (or may not) but even human nature is tentative and is subject to change, provided the right methods are employed. Nothing about people is completely unchangeable.
I guess you mean me by this, at least partly. Brave words from a cynic, I should think. :scratchchin: Anyway - nowhere did I state that things couldn't change. They can, and should, and will in time probably. At least when we get extensive genetic engineering at birth/before. :yes: But now that things are this way - and you know how it is - proceed with caution. 's all I'm sayin'.
About the greed thing - it's true for me at least. I remember the feeling when I clicked Cham for Jah come Ith (double-LOL!!1-st00piD). It was intoxicating... And afterwards, mortifying. I was angry at him but angrier at myself for falling for it. I learned my lesson, but it doesn't make scamming right. Not any cent of the way. It is not right to cheat people, stupid or smart, be it for whatever reason. Taking personal revenge on a scammer is understandable imo; scamming random people because you're "tired of being ******" is not.
stillman
23-07-2008, 16:32
It would help if Blizzard wasn't so cheap. Why can't they just add a glowing light animation or special design to all uniques instead of making soj's look the same as a ring of craftsmanship? I mean, there were about 5 different ring designs in the whole game....Blizzard was pretty much asking for trade screen ring switch scams.
Someone mentioned it several posts above, but Blizzard should just make it harder for scams to arise. Long ago they posted on d2 that "Blizzard will never ask for your password...don't respond to these theives." Things like that would help. Of course, retards will still find a way to scam.
Given how easy it is to obtain good items in d2, the real losers are the scammers since they suck so bad they must resort to scamming. Scamming takes time; I figgure they do it for the "reward" of hurting someone rather than the item gain.
Edit: Don't worry, scamming on b-net is good practice and makes them think it's of no consequence to scam later in real lfe. They'll get what's coming to them in jail.
WickedNasty
23-07-2008, 17:17
Ok as far as the trade window switch scam I think I have a solution.:jig:
So you've placed your items in the trade windows now you have two buttons:
First one switches items in each others trade window so previous owner
can't manipulate the item.
Second button then confirms the trade and adds the item to your
inventory. Presto!
It seems fairly simple unless I've missed something or somebody said this already. As far as the scamming and account stealing etc... Karma is a B.
:wink:
EDIT: Nothing nice to say, don't say it. I am done with this thread, enjoy
As the author and compiler of our old warnings section (http://web.archive.org/web/20040402055620/http://www.diabloii.net/battlenet/warnings.shtml), and someone who read literally hundreds of emails from people who had been ripped off in various ways, I'm not sure how I feel about this. There will always be scams and rip offs and gimmicks in life, and mst of them will be fueled by greed. Everyone wants something for cheap/nothing, and if someone presents them a way to get it, they're going to leap.
The ongoing housing bubble/lender crisis is a perfect example. Banks fooled themselves into thinking they could loan money to anyone since they'd get it back, plus interest, when the house sold since housing prices always went up. People fooled themselves into thinking they could afford a house far beyond their means since their 100% financing, 2 year adjustable rate mortgage was meaningless, since they could just sell the house and make a profit since housing prices always went up. Both sides were proven disastrously wrong by economic realities, and the result is billions in bank losses, millions of foreclosures, and quite possibly a nation wide recession.
And that's in real life, with real money. Every looked at late night TV commercials? I see them when I'm at the gym doing cardio, and half the damn ads at 1am are for secret ways to profit from home foreclosures, secret ways to work at home and earn $5k a month, magical plans for instant wealth and success, etc. (And the rest are for $5 a minute party lines where gorgeous 21 y/o women loll around in miniskirts, just waiting for hot guys to call. Which is exactly the same adversing concept as the "get money free" ads, just one that appeals to a desire other than the financial.)
Now take that same sort of psychology of "humans want instant gain" into a virtual world, where the consequences for failure are far less, there's no real punishment for attempting to scam others, and there's a general feeling of complete anonymity? It's almost a perfect recipe for scams and rip offs, and of course that's what you see in every online world.
Of the hundreds of scams I heard about on b.net/D2, in at least 95% of cases the person who got scammed was trying to cheat for personal gain. They wanted to hack their char, they wanted godmode, they wanted to dupe items, etc. The way every scammer entices their victim is by offering the victim some gain for little effort.
Whether all of this means that people "deserve" to be ripped off is a philosophical question, and everyone will have a different answer for it. In the real world there are laws to prevent these sorts of scams. If you go to get your oil changed they don't fill your engine with chicken grease and then go, "LOL NOOB!" when your car catches fire on the freeway. Players want similar laws or controls in the online world, so they can play fairly and without being ripped off or screwed over. But there's no way a company can ever create a game that eliminates all such scams, since most of them result from social engineering, rather than game exploits, and human psychology will always be vulnerable to clever scams.
pantherus
24-07-2008, 07:03
As the author and compiler of our old warnings section (http://web.archive.org/web/20040402055620/http://www.diabloii.net/battlenet/warnings.shtml), and someone who read literally hundreds of emails from people who had been ripped off in various ways, I'm not sure how I feel about this. There will always be scams and rip offs and gimmicks in life, and mst of them will be fueled by greed. Everyone wants something for cheap/nothing, and if someone presents them a way to get it, they're going to leap.
The ongoing housing bubble/lender crisis is a perfect example. Banks fooled themselves into thinking they could loan money to anyone since they'd get it back, plus interest, when the house sold since housing prices always went up. People fooled themselves into thinking they could afford a house far beyond their means since their 100% financing, 2 year adjustable rate mortgage was meaningless, since they could just sell the house and make a profit since housing prices always went up. Both sides were proven disastrously wrong by economic realities, and the result is billions in bank losses, millions of foreclosures, and quite possibly a nation wide recession.
And that's in real life, with real money. Every looked at late night TV commercials? I see them when I'm at the gym doing cardio, and half the damn ads at 1am are for secret ways to profit from home foreclosures, secret ways to work at home and earn $5k a month, magical plans for instant wealth and success, etc. (And the rest are for $5 a minute party lines where gorgeous 21 y/o women loll around in miniskirts, just waiting for hot guys to call. Which is exactly the same adversing concept as the "get money free" ads, just one that appeals to a desire other than the financial.)
Now take that same sort of psychology of "humans want instant gain" into a virtual world, where the consequences for failure are far less, there's no real punishment for attempting to scam others, and there's a general feeling of complete anonymity? It's almost a perfect recipe for scams and rip offs, and of course that's what you see in every online world.
Of the hundreds of scams I heard about on b.net/D2, in at least 95% of cases the person who got scammed was trying to cheat for personal gain. They wanted to hack their char, they wanted godmode, they wanted to dupe items, etc. The way every scammer entices their victim is by offering the victim some gain for little effort.
Whether all of this means that people "deserve" to be ripped off is a philosophical question, and everyone will have a different answer for it. In the real world there are laws to prevent these sorts of scams. If you go to get your oil changed they don't fill your engine with chicken grease and then go, "LOL NOOB!" when your car catches fire on the freeway. Players want similar laws or controls in the online world, so they can play fairly and without being ripped off or screwed over. But there's no way a company can ever create a game that eliminates all such scams, since most of them result from social engineering, rather than game exploits, and human psychology will always be vulnerable to clever scams.
Very well put sir!
It's hard to make the point of putting responsibility on the "victim" for being in that position from greed (as you pointed out, trying to learn how to dupe etc) whilst not implying that they are 100% culpable - which the terms "deserves" and "blame" do.
I do believe that people who fall for scams through their own greed are accountable for their own loss, though of course I'm certainly not endorsing the actions of the scammer. But it's a bit like the old advice adults give kids who are bullied at school "If you just ignore them, they'll leave you alone"; "Don't give them ammunition, they won't shoot" - say it how you like.
No matter what - those performing the "crime" should be accountable for their actions. But a certain amount of responsibility needs to be taken from the victim if they made a conscious action they shouldn't have which put them in the vulnerable position in the first place.
The wording of the poll (and the whole discussion really) put it into a position of extremes, with all the blame put on one or the other, where it really needs to be shared. If people would just wise up to these scams (through common sense) then the scammers would have far less 'material' to work with, and it will prove a far less lucrative path to follow. Unfortunately, this "wise up" usually winds up coming from experience of you (or someone you know, or who told you) winds up as the victim of something like it themselves. As they say: "The wisdom to make good decisions comes from experience, which all too often comes from making bad decisions."
I would like to ask the more fierce debaters of this topic to realise that they're not arguing a topic which is black and white, but more a certain shade of grey...
OverUsedChewToy
25-07-2008, 03:44
"I guess you mean me by this, at least partly. Brave words from a cynic, I should think."
I didn't say that they're guaranteed to change for the better :crazyeyes: Time will tell on that issue.
"If you go to get your oil changed they don't fill your engine with chicken grease and then go, "LOL NOOB!" when your car catches fire on the freeway."
I would pay the man with the balls to do that, it'd be classic.
I guess ultimately it boils down to the scam.
If it's based on a flaw in the game or an oversight in the game's system/code, I fully believe that it is the responsibility of the game designers to at least fix if not offer restitution to those scammed.
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