Magic Finding

[wilbert]

Hi, Magic Finding should be a thing of the past if you ask or don't ask me. Magic finding has alot of flaws, some people just want to make good characters and this keeps this from finding good items in the game, I had a 96 sorc a 5-6 years ago, I had 800% MF. All I did was runs over and over. I did'nt like the fact that I wasn't even trying to lvl anymore. Anywayz I think a lvl 80 barbarian should be able to find loot just as well as a lvl 80 witch doctor, regardless of what they are wearing.

[Peotto]

I agree with you, MF took alot out of the point of the game. It would be better if they also lowered the % chance to get all these fancy items. That way, trading is actually a must and not everyone will have the same gear. Im tired of seeing everyone in shako's and SOJ's (I just got back from a 5 year break, so if those items are "in" anymore... dont mind me).

[JunkStory]

the problem with Magic Finding is that only one or two classes will be able to effectively use those MF equipment without having to sacrifice their ability to kill monsters.

[5zigen]

the problem with Magic Finding is that only one or two classes will be able to effectively use those MF equipment without having to sacrifice their ability to kill monsters.

well, I would say 4 classes could about equally effectively equip mf (or 4 builds)

Assassin (trapsin)
Necromancer (any really)
Sorceress (any really)
Paladin (hammerdin)

Other classes could get MF, but these ones all had a special bonus. The weapon switch could be entirely mf oriented for an extra 120ish mf on bosses.

The thing that really messed up MF is that naturally only 2 of them are really viable for running bosses, Sorc (teleport) and to a lesser extent Paladin (charge / endurance).

I wouldnt mind MF as long as they can balance it out a bit.

[JunkStory]

well, I would say 4 classes could about equally effectively equip mf (or 4 builds)

Assassin (trapsin)
Necromancer (any really)
Sorceress (any really)
Paladin (hammerdin)

Other classes could get MF, but these ones all had a special bonus. The weapon switch could be entirely mf oriented for an extra 120ish mf on bosses.

The thing that really messed up MF is that naturally only 2 of them are really viable for running bosses, Sorc (teleport) and to a lesser extent Paladin (charge / endurance).

I wouldnt mind MF as long as they can balance it out a bit.

yes you are right and I meant only boss runs (specifically Mephisto), in which case the firewall/orb Sorc would be the only class you could use. Also, Boss runs were the only MF runs worth doing because you are guaranteed a good drop.

[pjbenkis]

I would say screw MF and make random scripted boss types more tied to unique items. I would make the special item tied to the boss type mob. Make it a chance that the named mob could be holding that unique item.

They told us that the areas are random but scripted, lets give some meaning to the scripted part of that.

Kinda like "Hey this random demon took down a major city hub of heaven during a siege that lasted 20 years, this was the weapon that broke the siege."

Give him a chance to actually be holding that weapon, and if you kill him, its yours. And please, let him have the actual use of the weapon.

[ranoutofnamez]

I think that with the treasure class...there should be a min class as well as a max tc. It makes my furious some of the crap that gets dropped by the bosses in hell...just my $.02

[snugglson]

I would say screw MF and make random scripted boss types more tied to unique items. I would make the special item tied to the boss type mob. Make it a chance that the named mob could be holding that unique item.

They told us that the areas are random but scripted, lets give some meaning to the scripted part of that.

Kinda like "Hey this random demon took down a major city hub of heaven during a siege that lasted 20 years, this was the weapon that broke the siege."

Give him a chance to actually be holding that weapon, and if you kill him, its yours. And please, let him have the actual use of the weapon.


please God no, i do not want any bosses with set loot tables like WoW. every drop MUST be random. i do not want to be running the same bosses over and over again because they are the only ones that drop the particular item that i want.

[s4nder]

I don't ever use MF in Diablo 2, it's pointless and I'd really like to see it go.

[Grawner]

no MF in D3!

[mouseman]

Well, a lot people don't know that MF has REALLY diminishing returns. The first 50% is very important. After 150-200 MF hardly matters anymore. The MF from 0-100 is more important than MF from 100-1000.

Shooting around ~100-250 MF makes many builds capable of MF'ing. Just slap shako and gheeds and you're basically set.

However, I never liked MF. It takes a lot of the excitement and replayability out of the game. Without it, people would just play the game instead of running bosses. So I vote NO for MF in Diablo 3.

[Luckymofo]

so how would one go about finding good items since:
1: most people dislike mf in d3
2: most people hate running bosses


solution: make everything pure randomness lol or put all good items in treasure chests like in real life

[Spamisgood]

So you want to remove something that was entirely optional to begin with? Something that made only the tiniest amount of difference anyways?

I think MF should stay in. I liked having to make multiple 'types' of the same characters. No one forced you to gear your Sorc in MF gear. You are asking the company to force us into something you could have easily done on your own by simply not using that gear.

Removing MF is not going to remove running bosses, it will, if anything, make grinding for gear even harder. Bosses, even without MF, still have the highest chance to drop higher level items. Why would anyone think that no MF = less boss runs?

And to the poster who suggested loot tables, please no. That is an MMO thing, even a traditional RPG thing. It however has no place in Diablo.

[Pitboss_2000]

The thing that really messed up MF is that naturally only 2 of them are really viable for running bosses, Sorc (teleport) and to a lesser extent Paladin (charge / endurance).

I'd like to add assassins with decent FRW-gear and burst of speed to this. ;)

[Apocalypse]

Removing MF is not going to remove running bosses, it will, if anything, make grinding for gear even harder. Bosses, even without MF, still have the highest chance to drop higher level items. Why would anyone think that no MF = less boss runs?



exactly, mf or not people will run bosses. i personally dont care if mf is in or not. i agree that it kinda sucks that some classes can use mf better than others but oh well, nothing stopping me or anyone else from making that class if mf is our ultimate goal. me personally, i never really cared about stacking up the mf, just played the game as normal

[vendrox]

So you want to remove something that was entirely optional to begin with? Something that made only the tiniest amount of difference anyways?

I think MF should stay in. I liked having to make multiple 'types' of the same characters. No one forced you to gear your Sorc in MF gear. You are asking the company to force us into something you could have easily done on your own by simply not using that gear.

Removing MF is not going to remove running bosses, it will, if anything, make grinding for gear even harder. Bosses, even without MF, still have the highest chance to drop higher level items. Why would anyone think that no MF = less boss runs?

And to the poster who suggested loot tables, please no. That is an MMO thing, even a traditional RPG thing. It however has no place in Diablo.

The amount of truth in this post makes my head hurt.. And I hereby sanction it accordingly.

Also, just to kill the "MFISONLYBOSSRUNNINGLULZ" thesis that's been flying around.. I never did a single mf run on a boss.. I made my fortune in the pits.. Hell yeah! :D

[imjustsomeguy]

Bosses will most likely be the best source of gear even with no magic find. I don't think D3 is going to have teleport Meph run type gameplay though. To fix this just make it harder to get to bosses, make it so you can't get by without clearing all or most of the mobs.

Also add an incentive to do the other areas in the game. Put in non boss areas with rewards like the pit, at the end put a mini boss or chest with a good drop. Have multiple areas like this in every act.

While it's true MF is optional, I'm sure the rate loot is dropped is set with MF gear in mind. It's possible someone who is playing D3 with no MF gear would get magic items slower than someone playing a version of D3 that was designed without MF gear. So people who don't like MF gear would have a valid complaint about not wanting it in the game. I don't think there has been any official word on what Bizzard thinks about MF, but I don't see it as that big of an issue either way.

[imjustsomeguy]

Another quick thought on cutting down on the repetitive boss runs...Add in something like Uber Trist that could be completed each game.

There could be a repeatable quest that is possible to complete in every new game created. A NPC in each act will give you a random location to clear (with about 5 different areas in each act they can choose from). So if there are 4 acts in the game that would give 20+ different non boss areas to clear on a regular basis.

After clearing each area the player would find a quest item. Once all 4 quest items are collected then off you go to some hellish place which upon clearing gives a reward that fits the amount of time it would take to get through the whole process (probably on par with boss loot to make it a valid alternative).

[Gigashadow]

I dislike the idea of repeating old sections of a game level to farm for items. I even more dislike the idea of not being able to find anything useful without MF. No MF and just increase the drop rates a bit maybe but that was just ridiculous. Everyone running around in MF gear...

[mouseman]

Just have quest drops on bosses and decrease them after the initial drops. I just miss the thing in Diablo 1 when you know that every time you play, anywhere you play, you got chances to find some of the best items in the game. I just miss going out randomly and finding really good stuff, not just random charms etc. Now 90% good items comes from boss runs with MF - it takes way too much time from the game, it has changed the game completely. Nerfing MF in every patch just shows blizzard isn't happy about it. It also shows it can't be balanced - as long as it's there, it changes gameplay drastically.

[phool]

I'm all for giving players as much room to make risk vs reward decisions as possible - fo you max your res or pack on another 100mf? Some rebalancing would be needed but it is certainly not a problem inherent to mf, especially with dramatic diminishing returns, that some builds are both offensively and defensively far more eq dependent than others.

[Chase]

I'm all for getting rid of magic find. A character being more powerful and therefore killing stuff faster should be your advantage at finding items.

Swapping gear to put on mf and building a character solely for that purpose was ridiculous.

I hear you on the class specific thing as well. It should all just be done away with and encourage gameplay. Now we all know we'll be "farming" for items, but an entire character and gearset for that sole purpose is a bit much.

[Apocalypse]

i think the big problem with mf came with d2x, when super godly items came about where you could have both mf and killing power

[jscore]

The thing is, with separate drops for each player, MF has new great possibilities.

Assuming monsters don't drop more when you are alone (i.e. the total number of drops isn't "split up," but the same no matter how many people are involved in destroying it), then you could easily make MF work for all the characters invovled (just like those health globes affect more than just the character who nabbed it)

that means a barb with little-to-no MF could still be useful to a Witch Doctor (or some other class) that has MF gear up the yin-yang as someone to help kill monsters.

Could encourage group play as well.

Also, as in other threads, the possibilities for rewards/drops for doing things other than killing bosses would be great, like clearing a whole map or simply random quests to find a person (for example) and then those random drops that occur as rewards could be affected by MF.

I think there is some stuff they could do to improve the uses of MF, but don't think it should go completely. The one thing MF does is make those die hards who put in hours and hours of gameplay get that many more uniques.

[NKlint]

The thing is, with separate drops for each player, MF has new great possibilities.

Assuming monsters don't drop more when you are alone (i.e. the total number of drops isn't "split up," but the same no matter how many people are involved in destroying it), then you could easily make MF work for all the characters invovled (just like those health globes affect more than just the character who nabbed it)...

I believe it has been stated somewhere in one of the myriad of gaming sites which have Interviewed Developers of Diablo III that "drop rates" will increase per person in the party. Meaning more drops for you if you team up with another person, and presumably fight in the same area.

[Jary]

I agree with most the posts here. It's repetetive and sorta takes away from the gameplay aspect, after a while it almost feels like work... and a game shouldn't be like that, it should mainly be for enjoyment. Heh, if anything the less stress they put on items the better.

[5zigen]

I agree with most the posts here. It's repetetive and sorta takes away from the gameplay aspect, after a while it almost feels like work... and a game shouldn't be like that, it should mainly be for enjoyment. Heh, if anything the less stress they put on items the better.

What would there have been to do in D2 if there was no mfing.

You would just be killing baal over and over again for exp and not items. It would have been TWICE as boring.

[Gigashadow]

What would there have been to do in D2 if there was no mfing.

You would just be killing baal over and over again for exp and not items. It would have been TWICE as boring.Increase drop rates, problem solved. MF has pretty much the same effect anyway.

[infectedA]

Being that Diablo is all about items someone is gonna have to find the things you want lol. Plus you have to admit when you struck big after two days on mf running on mephisto it felt great.

[Flux]

I'm a huge fan of MF and sincerely hope they have it in D3. That corpses decay and that (apparently) Find Item won't return is about my biggest regret thus far. (Hopefully we'll still have corpse skills; that the corpses decay quickly just adds some skill to using them; like trying to use the corpses of Baal's Minions before he laughs them away before the next wave.)

I can't imagine how people play D2 w/o MF. It's far too easy as it is, and if magic finding didn't provide a strong incentive to lower your char's killing power to increase your chances of finding good gear, it would be even easier. I've never had any interest in end game play that wasn't MF -- that and dueling are the only things that add any challenge or variety late game. I find PvM quite boring w/o MF gear on, both since that increases the loot quality, and makes the game a bit more difficult.

That some chars can MF more effectively than others is just how it goes. Some chars can kill faster than others too, and that doesn't keep people from playing the slower ones. If you enjoy a play style, you'll use it and find ways to make it competitive, so long as the game isn't totally unbalanced. (As D2 has often been.)

That said, the issue of personalized drops is an interesting one. If that boss is going to drop an item for you whether you hit it or not, should your MF count? Should all the item drops be determined by the MF of the char who makes the kill? If there is MF in D3, I think that's got to be addressed. The most fair solution would be to make your MF count if you do some % of damage, or are at least actively engaging the monster. People will always find exploits, so the details are debatable, but it doesn't seem fair to give your MF credit if you weren't involved in the fight, or if you stood back and did nothing but deal the last hit or two. (Imagine a Barb tanking bosses down to a sliver, then letting the MF-loaded WD in the party get the last hit = cheesy.)

[5zigen]

I can't imagine how people play D2 w/o MF. It's far too easy as it is, and if magic finding didn't provide a strong incentive to lower your char's killing power to increase your chances of finding good gear, it would be even easier. I've never had any interest in end game play that wasn't MF -- that and dueling are the only things that add any challenge or variety late game. I find PvM quite boring w/o MF gear on, both since that increases the loot quality, and makes the game a bit more difficult.


I feel the same way but I think that brings into question the reimplementation of MF as it is in D2. If the only good gear is gear with mf... doesnt it just kind of make all the other gear worthless, in a way.

I mean, the only helm worth using was shako for example. There was literally no better helm in almost every situation. It just leads to a massive disparity in quality, where everything you find that goes in the head slot is worthless, except for the harlequin crest.

[Jary]

I think someone touched on it earlier... but say the bosses are really long and impractacle to be able to get to, so your groups gotta go through a lot of obstacles and killing to even get that far, let alone kill the boss. At least that way, in a sense, you sorta have to earn what you get.

What if... this is just a thought, but your MF actually increased in a party as your damage dealt increases on a boss (and just for the boss btw)? Players can still wear mf gear but it evens it out for the players who are doing most the work...:yes: THere's still holes in that idea too, I know.. just a thought

[Apocalypse]

not to steer the chat of course here but flux's post made me wonder, how close will you have to be to someone to get loot dropped for you? if i tp to town to sell some goods and you stay killing whatever will stuff still drop for me cause we are in a party? do i just have to be in the same zone(assuming zones remain)?

[Gigashadow]

Being that Diablo is all about items someone is gonna have to find the things you want lol. Plus you have to admit when you struck big after two days on mf running on mephisto it felt great.I don't imagine an intelligent person doing MF runs for 2 days straight. That's just boring. Crap like that shouldn't be in the game. People should take what they get and move on.

[infectedA]

The most fair solution would be to make your MF count if you do some % of damage, or are at least actively engaging the monster.[/QUOTE]

That could be pretty cool especially if they did something like combine the parties mf. And since they are so head strong on coop play people would obviously do runs as a party. There to be things to do after you have done most everything you can. Magic find is one of those somethings in my head and if you don't like it don't do it. It's really that simple.

[blodtypexnar]

Well, a lot people don't know that MF has REALLY diminishing returns. The first 50% is very important. After 150-200 MF hardly matters anymore. The MF from 0-100 is more important than MF from 100-1000.

Shooting around ~100-250 MF makes many builds capable of MF'ing. Just slap shako and gheeds and you're basically set.

However, I never liked MF. It takes a lot of the excitement and replayability out of the game. Without it, people would just play the game instead of running bosses. So I vote NO for MF in Diablo 3.

Answer to this = Make monsters/specials/champions able to drop good gear. This way players would not only farm fx. Mephisto or Pindle...
Blizzard should make Killing Special monsters as meaningfull as possible. It would make it more adventuring. It get borring to kill the same boss over and over again.
This way you would also find new ways of making MF chars. Making a MF Sorc fx and beeing able to "world farm" is very hard. It requires alot more HP and a powerfull merc. Right now in D2 your able to farm bosses with no good gear at all... Since everyone can tele around 1 boss and kill it.

"i know paladin and druid is imba in 1.11. and that its no problem tele mf or kill anything with theese classes with good gear. But 1.11 is not DIablo... Its hacked and to many experiments from blizzard has failed the version...


So... the challenge with MF is. How to make a perfect group of irl friends or online friends, to defeat the prime evils with as much Magic find you can as possible without DYING! "if you play Hardcore like fools ;)" ... And yes Magic find does have an huge impact on doing MF!

If Berseker Axe drops, the chance of that axe getting , unique, rare or set, is getting bigger if you have alot MF! if less mf the chance of blue axe will increase...

This is diablo....

[imjustsomeguy]

That could be pretty cool especially if they did something like combine the parties mf.

Combining a groups MF seems like only fair way to handle things with individual loot. Otherwise you get too many people loading up on MF gear and doing minimal damage while the ones doing all the work (damage gear) get the smallest reward. With shared MF you won't have people complaining about the guy with all MF gear on who is just tagging along and doing 5% damage to each monster for the drop.

People will try to exploit of course by having a MF mule in every game but it could be worked around with proper balancing. Make it so it's more beneficial to wear 200 MF with faster killing speed over 600 MF and weak damage.

[phool]

Just make the entire party use the mf of whoever strikes the final blow, as in D2. This is exploitable, particularly when it comes to quest drops in D2, but I don't think that's a bad thing particularly.

[Spero]

Please keep MF in DIII!

If you don't like doing MF, then don't do it!! :thumbsup:

[Apocalypse]

Please keep MF in DIII!

If you don't like doing MF, then don't do it!! :thumbsup:

the problem with these kind of arguements is, if it is something that can effect others in the game its not as simple as "then don't do it". for instance if you hated ww barbs people could just say "don't use one" yet since everyone was useing one for the longest time it effected everyone else. now something like hardcore can be a simple "don't use it" as it effects no one at all who would choose not to use it

[trystero]

Why do you think people STILL play d2 to this day?

yes, replay value. mf = incredible replay value.

you're right - if you remove mf then people won't mf...and then they can "play the game," and after they've "played the game" - as an elemental druid really isn't that different from a bowazon - they will...quit.

[Flux]

I feel the same way but I think that brings into question the reimplementation of MF as it is in D2. If the only good gear is gear with mf... doesnt it just kind of make all the other gear worthless, in a way.

I mean, the only helm worth using was shako for example. There was literally no better helm in almost every situation. It just leads to a massive disparity in quality, where everything you find that goes in the head slot is worthless, except for the harlequin crest.

Well that's about unbalanced items more than about MF. shako's bonuses to skills and mana/life were what made it absurdly useful; even w/o MF it would have been quite popular. And with MF diminishing returns that 50% might not have made much difference for your individual character.

An easier solution for MF being too useful is to make the items more of a trade off. Don't put MF on top of items that are awesome in their own right. Shako, Oculus, Rhyme, etc. Make it a real decision, make MF only findable on magical items, make the biggest MF mods only appear on cursed items of the D1 type with negative stats, etc. That would allow some really interesting builds and play styles, though of course we'd get more of the "some chars are better at mf than others" argument. A fishymancer could roll with all cracked gear and 600% MF while melee chars are lucky to top 50%, etc.

[raveharu]

I agree with Flux.

Then again, Diablo 2 has too many flaws that can be exploited, and with maphack, bots, Enigma....:crazyeyes:

Let's just assume Diablo 3 will be a totally different game.

[pinefi]

Drag it down so hard, that it would be on the verge of pointless and maybe useful in a FULL party? No more hc-mf characters running around alone.

[Apocalypse]

what if they just removed the mf stat all together on items, say instead they have it be a skill that all classes get. you could spend a skill point into mf(needs to be a level 30 or whatever skill) so now people have to consider getting more mf for thier character or more killing/defending power?

[5zigen]

There are multiple other ways to spice up the MF game.

HGL, as ill fated as it was, had a really cool idea with the minigame.

For those who didn't know, basically you got a special drop whenever you met 3 criteria. The criteria would be like, find a certain number of a certain type of item (like 5 swords), kill x enemies using y element, etc.

It was easily the most fun part of HGL for me, but was ultimately hampered by the fact that the drop requirements were so skewed because they were all class specific drops.

Something integrated into the game would actually be really really fun imo. Like if you had some kind of "luck meter" where you have to do certain things to keep it up actively playing, where the higher it is the better your drops you get. Someways you could maybe keep it up is to kill enemies without stopping, there could be shrines for it, it could depend on using certain skills.

[Spero]

I don't imagine an intelligent person doing MF runs for 2 days straight. That's just boring. Crap like that shouldn't be in the game. People should take what they get and move on.

I was a national merit scholar and MF was my favorite part of DII. The rest of the game got boring very quickly for me.

Man it really bugs me that people want to take away parts of the game they don't like!!! WHY!! You just don't care about the others that loved those parts of the game, I guess. I'm just praying that Blizzard will include the parts of the game that many people obviously loved so much.

If Blizz doesn't have something like Mephisto runs in the new game many people like me will get bored fast. I think I'll wait to buy the game until I find out whether this kind of content is there. If the whole game is scripted for me and I have to "stay between the lines", it just will not be fun.

People in this thread have also alluded to their distaste of so called over powered characters and items. If you don't like them, don't play them!!

Oh, and Flux, your mf barb build article was the greatest ever! I really loved it and the build worked great.

[Spero]

Why do you think people STILL play d2 to this day?

yes, replay value. mf = incredible replay value.

you're right - if you remove mf then people won't mf...and then they can "play the game," and after they've "played the game" - as an elemental druid really isn't that different from a bowazon - they will...quit.

EXACTLY. And I would go even farther and say that - if there are no godly items and there is no MF, why even play NM and Hell? If DIII is like DII in that it will have NM and Hell - it's pointless to play them if your only reward is making it through.

I totally agree; why would I want to play through with more than one character? Slightly different ways of doing the exact same thing.. BOOORING!

[Mini]

well yes,, for me MF has always been a 'couldnt be bothered doing hours and hours of grinds, to get to high level areas to get nice items to trade to super-overpower my low level chars making the game super easy'...

just my opinion.. only reason i see MF any good is for HC and pvp/pk.. to get them good gems.. even though there is no real need to get to hell for this because Flawless gems drop in Normal mode Cows and 3 of them makes a perfect :p

[Flux]

On a related issue, is there that strong a correlation between boss runs and wearing MF? I mean, if there were no MF in D2, do you really think boss runs would go down? I wouldn't bet on that, since w/o MF you hardly ever see set/uniques drop, in the normal course of play. You only get them from act bosses, and some super uniques. People would still do meph runs, and in fact that would account for an even greater % of green/gold drops. Thanks to MF you can play any area and find good items, albeit your odds for those increase still further from bosses.

What's the actual complaint about MF by the haters? That it creates boss running game play style? That's not about MF though, that's about the item quality from bosses being so much higher. Its analogous to the cow level. In d2c the cows were an amusing novelty most players did once or twice for a diversion. No one worried about doing more since the rewards weren't very high. It wasn't until D2X, especially v1.09, that cows came to be massively exploited, since they were worth such huge exp and were so easy to kill. If there's something in the game that's hugely profitable, that's what players will specialize in.

The solution to pindlebots isn't to remove MF. It's to make bosses time consuming to run, or to reduce the item quality that act bosses/SUs drop, or increase the quality that random bosses drop, or make MF not work on act bosses/SUs.

[5zigen]

On a related issue, is there that strong a correlation between boss runs and wearing MF? I mean, if there were no MF in D2, do you really think boss runs would go down? I wouldn't bet on that, since w/o MF you hardly ever see set/uniques drop, in the normal course of play. You only get them from act bosses, and some super uniques. People would still do meph runs, and in fact that would account for an even greater % of green/gold drops. Thanks to MF you can play any area and find good items, albeit your odds for those increase still further from bosses.

Nothing would change. I think it's a little exaggerated that mf would make other areas more profitable than (or even comparable to) bosses (this may have been true in something like 1.06 before MF was on a DR scale, but not post 1.09)


What's the actual complaint about MF by the haters? That it creates boss running game play style? That's not about MF though, that's about the item quality from bosses being so much higher. Its analogous to the cow level. In d2c the cows were an amusing novelty most players did once or twice for a diversion. No one worried about doing more since the rewards weren't very high. It wasn't until D2X, especially v1.09, that cows came to be massively exploited, since they were worth such huge exp and were so easy to kill. If there's something in the game that's hugely profitable, that's what players will specialize in.

My complaint is that it's not a 'balanced' stat, in that it's more stackable for some classes than others, PARTICULARLY when it comes to boss killing. The simple act of having a 125mf weapon switch for casters, that non casters cant really deal with (EX: a MA Asn), of course the super rich could use 2x eth upgraded ali baba's on switch to kill bosses on a barb for switch. In the end it's more about item balance between players, and that some classes can easily stack MF and for others it's quite difficult.

My other complaint was that MF largely invalidated a lot of items, but I suppose balance could fix that.


The solution to pindlebots isn't to remove MF. It's to make bosses time consuming to run, or to reduce the item quality that act bosses/SUs drop, or increase the quality that random bosses drop, or make MF not work on act bosses/SUs.

I don't think that's the solution either, well any of those things. IMO the solution should be a little more simple / elegant than that. Increase the mob drops slightly, reduce boss /su drops slightly.

Further remove or castrate the extreme mobility skills, Teleport, Charge/endurance, etc and move all superuniques and bosses away from waypoints or their Diablo 3 Equivelant.

The ultimate balance (using a D2 example) would be for the loot dropped from WSK to and including Baal, divided by the time to kill the enemies to and including baal is SLIGHTLY greater than the loot dropped by baal only divided by the time it takes to bypass the enemies and kill only baal.

Course I'm not an MF hater, I'm just arrogant enough to think that my solution would be the most elegant / best.

[Gigashadow]

I don't like MF because its existence suggests playing old areas that you already played. Repetition is not my thing. If it was gone, drop rates would have been increased, and people who do not re-run areas would have a greater chance to get something.

[a brick]

personally i'm fine with re running things as long as it wasnt the same every single time... there is never really any real variation... i know its hard to ask something like that but that was jsut me.

one problem that i had with DII in general was how ridiculously hard it was to get started and get good. i mean, uniques are required to be good and actually be able to do things in DII. If ur just starting up again (like i have for the 5th time) the one thing that putsme off is that it would take a year to actually do the things i want to do and not get kicked around. I have a problem with uniques is all. I think the mf problem would be solved if the whole item system was reworked a little bit to help balance it. I want DIII to have such amazing customabaility of characters its unbelievable, no two builds ever the same, and even every build has more than one sub option that sitll allows it to be viable.

New system thats more random in terms of the potential of the item itself would make mf a good thing to have again.. i posted this somehwere else but unqiues arent really unique, the rares are mroe unique than anything... uniques are standarized and the same with a little variation here and there within the numbers. There should be variation within the items more and the this mf issue will work itself out amd make for much better gameplay i believe.
sorry for legnth, but this is a big topic for me.

[Onehouse]

Hi, Magic Finding should be a thing of the past if you ask or don't ask me. Magic finding has alot of flaws, some people just want to make good characters and this keeps this from finding good items in the game, I had a 96 sorc a 5-6 years ago, I had 800% MF. All I did was runs over and over. I did'nt like the fact that I wasn't even trying to lvl anymore. Anywayz I think a lvl 80 barbarian should be able to find loot just as well as a lvl 80 witch doctor, regardless of what they are wearing.

Yes, I agree and I made a post on this a while ago.

http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=670143&highlight=Onehouse

I think that D2's biggest flaw was that it had no end game outside of MF'ing. It is a playstyle that only caters to a few like minded people. In order for D3 to last longer for more people it needs to offer a better end game. I think that MF is broken in the way that it makes you play your character in away that your character isn't the best, in order to get gear that you still wont use because you need MF gear. It is a bad design choice to have the players play with worse gear as it results in making your character less powerful and that results in less fun for the most players.

However, MF might be able to exist in D3 as a compliment to other end game viable ways of playing. Give the players options to MF or to take part in other end game things in D3. But honestly, getting rid of it all together would be the best action, but only if they can add extras like I mentioned before.

Just note that this discussion is bound to fail on these boards as most people here are pro MF even though they are a minority compared to the amounts of people who bought the game. This is my theory and there is no need to discuss that as we will never know for sure. But if you insist. Simply take a look at D2 games today and you will see that 95% of the games created are made to trade. 4% are made for some kind of rush and 1% are people who want to play the game in a normal "single playerish" type of way, do the quests, take your time, talk ****, have fun... etc. This makes one think that the majority of the people who still plays the game are MF type players and the other millions who bought the game but left it shortly after lost interesst.

[Onehouse]

On a related issue, is there that strong a correlation between boss runs and wearing MF? I mean, if there were no MF in D2, do you really think boss runs would go down? I wouldn't bet on that, since w/o MF you hardly ever see set/uniques drop, in the normal course of play. You only get them from act bosses, and some super uniques. People would still do meph runs, and in fact that would account for an even greater % of green/gold drops. Thanks to MF you can play any area and find good items, albeit your odds for those increase still further from bosses.

What's the actual complaint about MF by the haters? That it creates boss running game play style? That's not about MF though, that's about the item quality from bosses being so much higher. Its analogous to the cow level. In d2c the cows were an amusing novelty most players did once or twice for a diversion. No one worried about doing more since the rewards weren't very high. It wasn't until D2X, especially v1.09, that cows came to be massively exploited, since they were worth such huge exp and were so easy to kill. If there's something in the game that's hugely profitable, that's what players will specialize in.

The solution to pindlebots isn't to remove MF. It's to make bosses time consuming to run, or to reduce the item quality that act bosses/SUs drop, or increase the quality that random bosses drop, or make MF not work on act bosses/SUs.

Hey Flux, long time no see =D

In regards to your question about MF I think that it simply comes down to playstyle. D2 end game caters to very few playstyles. Let's say you like to play D2 to gather items, collect them and trade them. Then MF is a bless from the heavens as you will be able to do what you really like about the game and collect and trade much more due to MF.

Also, lets say you want to PVP in D2. Then you must MF in order to be competative, and if you don't like MF you are screwed. Also, every game where you can get items and trade them or collect them you will have people doing just that as their main "tick" in that game. The main point here though is that players will still be able to do just that even if they have MF or not.

So then, if there exists other ways of endgaming, people will enjoy that end game with their best powerful characters and still have the same odds for getting loot. The market will not be flooded either and stuff you find will actually be worth something. If you find something today that is really rare, people already have 10 each. This will actually boost economy and the feelings of being unique in the way that you might get an item not very many can.

Truth is that most people who bought D2 left it shortly after due to nothing to do for their type of play style.

[5zigen]

Hey Flux, long time no see =D

In regards to your question about MF I think that it simply comes down to playstyle. D2 end game caters to very few playstyles. Let's say you like to play D2 to gather items, collect them and trade them. Then MF is a bless from the heavens as you will be able to do what you really like about the game and collect and trade much more due to MF.

Also, lets say you want to PVP in D2. Then you must MF in order to be competative, and if you don't like MF you are screwed. Also, every game where you can get items and trade them or collect them you will have people doing just that as their main "tick" in that game. The main point here though is that players will still be able to do just that even if they have MF or not.

So then, if there exists other ways of endgaming, people will enjoy that end game with their best powerful characters and still have the same odds for getting loot. The market will not be flooded either and stuff you find will actually be worth something. If you find something today that is really rare, people already have 10 each. This will actually boost economy and the feelings of being unique in the way that you might get an item not very many can.

Truth is that most people who bought D2 left it shortly after due to nothing to do for their type of play style.

But removal of MF as a stat wouldn't change people's behavior (running bosses and cheating via pindlebot etc) and likewise removing MF wouldn't add more options for play for those that don't like to collect items (though there are lots of reasons to collect items, Some people simply want to collect all the items, some want to find a perfect gearset for a single char, some want to collect items to make new or atypical chars), it would just limit the play experience for those that do like to collect items.

[Omikron8]

1) remove MF
2) drastically increase chance of set/unique/whatever drops for ALL monsters

there is no damn good reason a player should have to run big bosses repeatedly to get the best gear, nothing kills replayability and enjoyment faster than the damn boss grind

you like collecting items ? just play through each area of the game repeatedly, a lot more interesting than staring at meph say "my brother have escaped you" for the billionth time

[Moaf]

From my perspective diablo 2 has three core components (not including PvP):
(1) Action: Bashing Monsters in an effective manner in SP or MP
(2) Character Customization by Choice: Leveling Up, Assigning Skills
(3) Character Customization by Luck: Finding Items

The problem with d2 is that it becomes too quickly monotonous regarding (1) and (2). After you played it through hell (or even before it), the only thing that keeps the game mainly interesting are item drops, leading to an item-centered game. And that's my main problem with d2. I want the focus back on the action - even after hitting the level cap (ok eternal fun is of course impossible). In my opintion, MF was just an aspect of the game that emerged because of missing fun and variety in its other parts of the game.
Therefore Blizzard has to make the action more interesting for the player. Not only e.g. by increased item drops, but also by much more different monsters and monster abilities, different monster combinations, enhanced AI, etc etc...; I'd also wouldn't mind if there was a bit more "skill" involved into the combats (or at least bit more than just point & click without too much thinking)... Okay, this shouldn't be too much of a wishlist :P
Where i wanted to go with 'more action' and MF: I hope Blizzard sets the priority back from item-finding to (a cooperative) hack'n'slay.

My conclusion: I don't care if there is MF in the game. I think the game has some fundamental flaws leading to so much item-grinding that need to be fixed first. I wouldn't feel bad if there is no MF, as MF can also be in some way compared to killing speed.

[deadbeater]

I don't mind no 'mfing', as long as boss type monsters don't drop ***. I begin to feel like the chief from The Secret Show whose name is changed daily, usually into a funny name.

'El Rune? In hell??'

[Apocalypse]

other people running never hurt me, and like flux said people will run with or without mf. i would not mind seeing it be more balanced but if its not then whatever, nothing stopping me from building a mf only char

[Flux]

as Onehouse and others point out, it's a complicated issue about much more than just the MF stat. There's no real PvM endgame other than MF, the game is set up to greatly reward repeatedly running the same few valuable areas, characters have very different equipment needs, the items MF appears on aren't well-balanced, etc.

Changing just one variable here or there wouldn't improve things, and would probably have unforeseen consequences. Blizz initially planned to make act bosses not work with MF in the looooong-awaited v1.10 patch. That was actually in effect during beta testing of the patch, but was changed just before it was released. I don't think that would have ended meph running, but it certainly would have made it a lot less profitable, and would thereby have greatly increased the popularity of SU running. Hork Barb + Travincal = FTW?

I think the MF stat should probably be more restricted by item type. It's too easy to get it now with all the uniques and sets that include it, charms, jewelry, etc. Look at something like leech in D1. It's only found on weapons, and very rarely there, and if you take it on a weapon you're foregoing another very valuable suffix such as haste or +stats, and since haste can't be added from other equipment, and leech is not found on other item types (only 1 almost unfindable unique life leech helm in MP) it's a huge decision. As a result hardly anyone uses leech, and if you do you're making a substantial trade off to have it.

That can't be directly applied to MF in D2 or D3, since D1 only had magical items and limited power uniques, but it's certainly possible to put MF just on certain item types, and to make it very expensive, in terms of it appearing instead of other valuable mods. It would still be impossible to balance perfectly, since chars have such different needs in their equipment (imagine sorcs and necros carrying around cruel/of luck daggers, since that's the only way to get MF, and they don't care about weapon damage or not having haste/leech/+dmg).

I can't see that happening; item inflation is kind of inevitable in sequels as they keep adding more and better and cooler and newer stuff, but I think it's clear that just removing MF entirely wouldn't improve anything in D2 any more than making some bosses not work with it would.

[Onehouse]

as Onehouse and others point out, it's a complicated issue about much more than just the MF stat. There's no real PvM endgame other than MF, the game is set up to greatly reward repeatedly running the same few valuable areas, characters have very different equipment needs, the items MF appears on aren't well-balanced, etc.

Changing just one variable here or there wouldn't improve things, and would probably have unforeseen consequences. Blizz initially planned to make act bosses not work with MF in the looooong-awaited v1.10 patch. That was actually in effect during beta testing of the patch, but was changed just before it was released. I don't think that would have ended meph running, but it certainly would have made it a lot less profitable, and would thereby have greatly increased the popularity of SU running. Hork Barb + Travincal = FTW?

I think the MF stat should probably be more restricted by item type. It's too easy to get it now with all the uniques and sets that include it, charms, jewelry, etc. Look at something like leech in D1. It's only found on weapons, and very rarely there, and if you take it on a weapon you're foregoing another very valuable suffix such as haste or +stats, and since haste can't be added from other equipment, and leech is not found on other item types (only 1 almost unfindable unique life leech helm in MP) it's a huge decision. As a result hardly anyone uses leech, and if you do you're making a substantial trade off to have it.

That can't be directly applied to MF in D2 or D3, since D1 only had magical items and limited power uniques, but it's certainly possible to put MF just on certain item types, and to make it very expensive, in terms of it appearing instead of other valuable mods. It would still be impossible to balance perfectly, since chars have such different needs in their equipment (imagine sorcs and necros carrying around cruel/of luck daggers, since that's the only way to get MF, and they don't care about weapon damage or not having haste/leech/+dmg).

I can't see that happening; item inflation is kind of inevitable in sequels as they keep adding more and better and cooler and newer stuff, but I think it's clear that just removing MF entirely wouldn't improve anything in D2 any more than making some bosses not work with it would.

Some one mentioned a way of improving MF as well as adding other options for end game in D3. Instead of simply having MF it would be split into several categories. Like MF Rings, MF Swords, MF Armor, MF Boots etc... so that you could increase your MF, but only for certain items and that you had to choose. I think that MF as a stat would be more balanced if you just couldn't get it all like you can in D2. I also liked the idea that someone else mentioned about having an extra inventory screen for cloth items that you wear under your armor. These cloth items can only have MF attributes. This way you can wear your MF gear at the same time as your best armor. Alternatively, make the MF items armor patches that you can add onto armor. One patch per armor/waepon and they don't take a rune/gem slot.

Combine the two examples above and you have a new and improved way of MF'ing. Your character still stays the best and fun, you still use MF items but only for certain items that you have to choose yourself. Maybe you need some new boots really bad, put on your MF boot items and you are set. This will add fun and I can't really see a negative side to it. Then as the last step you compliment this with tons of other end game activities that D2 lacked. Problem solved =D

[a brick]

Some one mentioned a way of improving MF as well as adding other options for end game in D3. Instead of simply having MF it would be split into several categories. Like MF Rings, MF Swords, MF Armor, MF Boots etc... so that you could increase your MF, but only for certain items and that you had to choose. I think that MF as a stat would be more balanced if you just couldn't get it all like you can in D2. I also liked the idea that someone else mentioned about having an extra inventory screen for cloth items that you wear under your armor. These cloth items can only have MF attributes. This way you can wear your MF gear at the same time as your best armor. Alternatively, make the MF items armor patches that you can add onto armor. One patch per armor/waepon and they don't take a rune/gem slot.

Combine the two examples above and you have a new and improved way of MF'ing. Your character still stays the best and fun, you still use MF items but only for certain items that you have to choose yourself. Maybe you need some new boots really bad, put on your MF boot items and you are set. This will add fun and I can't really see a negative side to it. Then as the last step you compliment this with tons of other end game activities that D2 lacked. Problem solved =D

Thats a good idea but i feel that people could easily exploit it. But if you're gonna put in something new like that I think it has to be done all at once, not patch by patch. That's just me, tho.

I don't think the developers of DII intended to make rare item finding so easy. Either that or they designed the game around singal player where you find very rare items hardly ever. I'd like to keep MF because I dont see anything wrong with increasing your chance to find good items. I think blizzard should just expect people to explot MF a lot like people did with DII and take that into account.

They need more end game stuff that's for sure. You should be allowed to further improve your character after you've finished using MF i believe.