Introducing "skill" into the game

[fledgeling]

As much as I like the game and play it a lot, I still consider it a "no skill game". By this I mean that generally the player does not have to do much. Even with bad gear, it's usually just clicking the mouse button to attack and move - with an additional drink from time to time.
We rarely have to switch skills. There is barely any tactic (just charge!).

What I would like to see much more, is introduction of some other battle system, that would actually be a bit demanding for the player. Currently, only few characters demand any more advanced interactions from the player:
-a sorc that is teleporting around and spamming frozen orbs etc.
-an amazon who is trying to hide behind her valkirie and uses the decoy skill

Other characters seem to be the one hit wonders - for example a whirlwind barb. Technically barbs sometimes have to deal with monsters that are immune to physical damage, but still that;s not much..
In CLASSIC (e.g. NO ENIGMA) duels, the players have to start/stop running (by pressing the R button) during a BVB (barb vs barb), thus there is a bit more of interaction introduced.

I wonder if blizzard could introduce more of such things.
I dont play LOD, because I consider it an even less skill game - the mercenary is a tank and a sorc stands behind him and casts a single spell (thanks to infinity..). Also the whole idea of ENIGMA is so bad IMO.

On the other hand, it would be nice to allow different characters to use the skills of other classes (which was destroyed in LOD, where the CTA, enigma etc. are too strong). But a WW assasin is a nice addition.

***
Also hope that diablo 3 will not be that bugged as 2. Did they EVER patch the fend bug? Amazon has been always super bugged since 1.00 I think.. Now the cold damage spells AR bonuses are bugged as far as I know..

[Apocalypse]

they have already talked about how d3 is supposed to require more diversity in skills. the demo shows how a barb needed to stun the shield skeletons tog et them to drop thier shields before he attacked them. things like that will add much to the game imo

[JunkStory]

I STRONGLY agree.

Especially in PVP, it should be a battle of skills and not just who has the higher level or better items. I think this can be done by creating "weak spots." For example, you can deal more damage if you attack your enemy from behind, or you if you hit when the enemy is in the middle of casting a spell/attack.

[slickr]

Diablo is not a competitive game in nature and although we won't be seeing too much competitive play, blizzard are already trying to introduce more skill to the game to make it more fun and also increase the competitiveness of it also...
Some of the things are:
No potion massing and consuming spamming
More "skills"(abilities) based combat
More environmental combat(active physics ingame)
More positional combat

Will this make Diablo 3 a real competitive game?
-No, not much at least, but it will offer a bit more skill and we should not forget that Diablo games are not competitive based!

[Apocalypse]

you are wrong slickr, potions will be the new soj

[JunkStory]

In D2, you could play the game while chatting away on the phone, eating ice-cream and MSN/facebooking all at the same time. I'm afraid D3 will be even more so, since the gameplay trailer says that you can essentially play the game with just the mouse.. *ugh*

[NKlint]

I don't know if this is unrelated or not, but I hope two barbs who are leaping towards one another clash weapons when meeting at the jump, or crash together and fall to the ground in a heap.

[fledgeling]

you are wrong slickr, potions will be the new soj

for some time mana potions could not be bought from shops in d2
they will probably resign from this idea due to the popular demand

In D2, you could play the game while chatting away on the phone, eating ice-cream and MSN/facebooking all at the same time. I'm afraid D3 will be even more so, since the gameplay trailer says that you can essentially play the game with just the mouse.. *ugh*

I can type with one hand and teleport/orb with other.. that's so sad..

[Omikron8]

oh hey look another person that want games to be "hard work that take lots of skill"

i like diablo 2 because i can obliterate entire screens of monsters by so much as farting in their general direction

wonder when developers will remember that games are supposed to be fun, seems that all MMO games (including WoW) seem to have forgotten that aspect

if i want to use and show "skill" i'll go do something actually intellectually or physically demanding

[mr burns]

try playing hardcore classic as a sorc, or any class for that matter, in hell chaos sanctuary and tell me that doesn't require skill. expansion took a lot of the skill out of PvM. and i don't understand how people can say they only use one or two skills and can just whack off while playing. there are a bunch of other utility/survival skills that help every class build. maybe try going to a more difficult area.

[lionheart]

oh hey look another person that want games to be "hard work that take lots of skill"

i like diablo 2 because i can obliterate entire screens of monsters by so much as farting in their general direction

wonder when developers will remember that games are supposed to be fun, seems that all MMO games (including WoW) seem to have forgotten that aspect

if i want to use and show "skill" i'll go do something actually intellectually or physically demanding


I honestly could not agree more :grin:

[Tsumaru]

I never understood the mentality of people disliking the base gameplay of a game, and then expecting the sequel to change to their preferences.

If you don't like the way D2 plays, play a different game - don't expect the franchise to become different for you. Especially if you end up playing it heaps, even though you dislike the gameplay, and happen to have 1000+ posts on a fan-forum dedicated to the game. The developers will just laugh at you.

Think about it. It's like me saying that ice-cream is too sugary, commenting that future ice-cream products from a certain company should have less sugar, and yet eating a bucket of ice-cream a day nonetheless. What incentive do they actually have to change? To please the customer? I'm sorry, I'm clearly already well pleased.

[Alientank]

Diablo is about being insanely powerful and wiping out hordes of monsters at once, not taking 1 mob at a time like in WoW. Get over it.

[BlackWinterDay]

Diablo is about being insanely powerful and wiping out hordes of monsters at once, not taking 1 mob at a time like in WoW. Get over it.

Agreed. If I want to play something that takes a decent amount of skill, I'll go back to my T6 raid tank in World of Warcraft. Diablo2 was about mindless carnage and I hope D3 follows that to an extent.

[CaptainDingo]

they have already talked about how d3 is supposed to require more diversity in skills. the demo shows how a barb needed to stun the shield skeletons tog et them to drop thier shields before he attacked them. things like that will add much to the game imo

Though don't forget he then went on to the second line of shield skeletons and broke through the shields in about 2 seconds with Whirlwind, so clearly there's some balancing that needs to be done there if they want people to actually have a reason to use tactics. :P

I dare say it took him longer to stun and attack than it did to just Whirlwind through the shields.

[fledgeling]

I never understood the mentality of people disliking the base gameplay of a game, and then expecting the sequel to change to their preferences.

If you don't like the way D2 plays, play a different game - don't expect the franchise to become different for you. Especially if you end up playing it heaps, even though you dislike the gameplay, and happen to have 1000+ posts on a fan-forum dedicated to the game. The developers will just laugh at you.

Think about it. It's like me saying that ice-cream is too sugary, commenting that future ice-cream products from a certain company should have less sugar, and yet eating a bucket of ice-cream a day nonetheless. What incentive do they actually have to change? To please the customer? I'm sorry, I'm clearly already well pleased.

Have you ever worked? When you will start working you will start posting on different forums ;-) ACN and KPMG dont pay enough.. to give them their soul.

Well, I like d2 due to the experimenting + I play purely classic (made my first druid few weeks ago) - guess what - mostly with sorcs.
Have you ever heard of Starcraft - a game easy to play, but hard to master?
Imagine the duels requiring skill, not items.
I think Ive played over 10k starcraft games.. : ) and made 5k+ posts on
starcraft forums..

[Sein Schatten]

Diablo is about being insanely powerful and wiping out hordes of monsters at once, not taking 1 mob at a time like in WoW. Get over it.

Umm...
SoC, judge, SoC, autoattack, watch porn, repeat
Sic pet, autoshot, read comic, repeat
Sic pet, dot, dot, dot, autoattack
;)

Though I agree with you. :)

[Apocalypse]

oh hey look another person that want games to be "hard work that take lots of skill"

i like diablo 2 because i can obliterate entire screens of monsters by so much as farting in their general direction

wonder when developers will remember that games are supposed to be fun, seems that all MMO games (including WoW) seem to have forgotten that aspect

if i want to use and show "skill" i'll go do something actually intellectually or physically demanding

cheers mate, you got it down perfectly. the main reason i love the diablo series is cause of its mindless simplicity

[Brother Laz]

wonder when developers will remember that games are supposed to be fun, seems that all MMO games (including WoW) seem to have forgotten that aspect

Some of us consider it fun to overcome challenges. Others choose to remain potato bags and play godmode games so they don't have to get good at them or anything.

D1 was actually hard in multiplayer unless you were one of the zillion cheaters. Nowadays elemental druids are considered 'useless' because you need to cast no less than 3 tornadoes to kill something.

[CarsV]

oh hey look another person that want games to be "hard work that take lots of skill"

i like diablo 2 because i can obliterate entire screens of monsters by so much as farting in their general direction

wonder when developers will remember that games are supposed to be fun, seems that all MMO games (including WoW) seem to have forgotten that aspect

if i want to use and show "skill" i'll go do something actually intellectually or physically demanding

Frankly I find some of the responses in this thread to be disturbing. It basically boils down to some people saying "I want a dumb game". I've had enough of the sheer, mindless simplicity of D2. I'm not asking for Diablo's Evil Rubik's Cube of Doom, but I want some more use of tactics; use of the RPG elements in Diablo; the need to *gasp* problem solve. As of now one's power and skill is determined by their items, which encourages mindless mfing, which turns the game into a virtual slot machine. I'd like to see D3 utilize both items and player ability. I can hardly play D2 for any longer than 15-30 minutes anymore. I stopped being stimulated by it long ago.

[JunkStory]

Frankly I find some of the responses in this thread to be disturbing. It basically boils down to some people saying "I want a dumb game". I've had enough of the sheer, mindless simplicity of D2. I'm not asking for Diablo's Evil Rubik's Cube of Doom, but I want some more use of tactics; use of the RPG elements in Diablo; the need to *gasp* problem solve. As of now one's power and skill is determined by their items, which encourages mindless mfing, which turns the game into a virtual slot machine. I'd like to see D3 utilize both items and player ability. I can hardly play D2 for any longer than 15-30 minutes anymore. I stopped being stimulated by it long ago.

I completely agree.

I can't believe the amount of people who prefer a mind-dead game that doesn't require any brain activity. Well, the good news is that D3 isn't made by the old developers of D2....

[Luckymofo]

Why does everyone expect D3 to be the end all be all of all games? I mean, everyone expects D3 to be mindless slaughter AND be tactical and brain using at the same time.

If you don't like a game, play another, it only costs money and time and effort

[Tsumaru]

Have you ever worked? When you will start working you will start posting on different forums ;-) ACN and KPMG dont pay enough.. to give them their soul.
Why yes, yes I have. And I do. In fact, I'm heading off to work in 30 minutes. And yet, strangely, I have no idea what your point is.

I can't believe the amount of people who prefer a mind-dead game that doesn't require any brain activity.
Preference has nothing to do with it. If I want to play a problem-solving game, I'd play Prince of Persia. If I want a puzzle game, I'll play... I dunno, some puzzle game. If I want to shoot people in the head, I've got an FPS. And if I want to play a third-person click-fest RPG where I'm insanely powerful and slaughter mobs in the hundreds - well by god man, thanks to Blizzard, I've got Diablo for that.

If you want to play a game with tactics, puzzles, problem-solving and using more than about three hotkeys and the mouse - find a different game. But there's a reason D2 is so goddamned popular. They've obviously done something right with it. And if you don't think what they've done is right, then most likely you're the minority. And instead of expecting every single game to be identical and exactly what you want - maybe you should find the market which caters to your interests?


That having been said, I would not be averse to the inclusion of some form of strategy in the game. The ability to play a bit more tactically. But the game should also be playable by someone who doesn't want that. The balance is not easy to find. Especially when you've now got respecs, and people who want INFINITE respecs... that just makes the game so mind-numbingly simple that not only do you not need to play strategically, but you don't even need to put in 5 minutes of forethought to where you're going to dedicate your skills and stats since you can just change them all later anyway.

[Wurmer]

I agree with the previous poster here, I would certainly welcome strategy and tactics added to the game but not to the point where you need and handbook to be able to go through acts and quests. This game is all about fast pace action/slashing/questing/trading and it should remain true to it's heritage up to a certain point.

[Omikron8]

games

thought i would highlight that word

i'll gladly "work hard" to play a videogame, when you start paying me

[Techboss]

My feeling is that the term "introduce skill" is actually "don't make the game so cookie cutter". Currently, the skill system limits you to 1 or 2 key abilities which your character spams because they don't have any other abilities. If they had more abilities, there would be opportunities to combo stuff up and thus all the "skilled" players to be more effective than the "unskilled" players.

I think what should set those who get apart from those who don't is the speed and ease that they can access content. A skilled player can do "harder" content at lower level that someone who isn't. This should be the main differentiator, not if the content can ever be completed.

[Apocalypse]

I completely agree.

I can't believe the amount of people who prefer a mind-dead game that doesn't require any brain activity. Well, the good news is that D3 isn't made by the old developers of D2....

since when is this considered good news?

[stillman]

Aren't all games a little too easy after 10 years? Of course they are. We've mastered them. I don't think d2 was "mindless" playing back when I bought it. It took me years and years of palying to master one build and reach the easy playing style I wanted.

I think d2 is mindless and easy because of the duped rune problem. If we all have access to the godliest gear, well then of course the game is going to be too easy. It's not Blizzard's fault.

Also, I think those builds that are less strategic actually do involve some forethought and strategy. The real strategy is thinking and planning. It's an RPG after all. The "mindless" playing style is a reward for a well planned build. And as I've noted, we've mastered the game over all these years so of course it seems too easy to us. Currenly in d2, there are beginners who have stumbled into hell mode and many of them will beg to differ with the OP. They can tele and spam frozen orb all they want; but gosh, those cold immunes just won't go away.

[JunkStory]

Aren't all games a little too easy after 10 years? Of course they are. We've mastered them. I don't think d2 was "mindless" playing back when I bought it. It took me years and years of palying to master one build and reach the easy playing style I wanted.

I think d2 is mindless and easy because of the duped rune problem. If we all have access to the godliest gear, well then of course the game is going to be too easy. It's not Blizzard's fault.

Also, I think those builds that are less strategic actually do involve some forethought and strategy. The real strategy is thinking and planning. It's an RPG after all. The "mindless" playing style is a reward for a well planned build. And as I've noted, we've mastered the game over all these years so of course it seems too easy to us. Currenly in d2, there are beginners who have stumbled into hell mode and many of them will beg to differ with the OP. They can tele and spam frozen orb all they want; but gosh, those cold immunes just won't go away.

After giving some deep thought, I think that you are right too. The REAL problem is duping, which gave way to massive godly items being distributed to everyone. Without duping, only a handful of people on bnet would actually have Enigmas, HOTOs, etc.. and the game would be much more difficult on average.

So by essentially eliminating duping, Blizzard could make the game much more challenging.

[SnickerSnack]

only a handful of people on bnet would actually have Enigmas, HOTOs, etc..

I think that HotO would still be pretty common without duping. It only takes a few lucky hell forges to make one. Some runewords, however would not be common. There might be one (1) Infinity in a given realm, and no one would have a Last Wish. Decent runewords like Stone would get their due.

[chenghao]

not forgetting those insane items /charms etc that do not belong in game

those ao_ith blades , white charms , h4xoR stuff.

it would be interesting where they have items dropping on the floor during pk , like when you drop your sword while dueling , it would make for interesting strategies , or even limps falling off and reducing your capacity to move / slash people

[fledgeling]

Aren't all games a little too easy after 10 years? Of course they are. We've mastered them.

Starcraft!




I also hope they will finally make the ability to have "standardized duels" - e.g. chars with EQUAL (non-random) damage and same equipment, perhaps a point system like in fallout tactics? Limited access to pots..

[Funkopotamus]

I think the lack of skill required to play the game is due to the community itself. Diablo's mathematicians and scientists will find the efficiency of this and that and create the most effective builds and those builds will propagate. If you use those builds, yeah, it's going to be super easy.

[kioo]

The Diablo series pack a lot of gameplay diversity. You can basically pay it however you like. Read the strategy (http://strategy.diii.net/) for class you play and just mindlessly H&S through the game. Play it with your friends and family and focus only on few skills. Be creative and make your own build. Use lots of skills (tactics) to kill the monsters. Collect the loot! (and more)... Everyone likes something else about this game.

IMO Blizzard is trying to preserve all that diversity in D3. And if they succeed, it will be a great game. Rest depends on everyone's taste. "De gustibus non est disputandum."

Even if they make it with more focus on skills, you'll still be able to play it with your mouse only. That's the beauty of this game. If you change the gameplay radically, it's not the same game.

[Onehouse]

I never understood the mentality of people disliking the base gameplay of a game, and then expecting the sequel to change to their preferences.

If you don't like the way D2 plays, play a different game - don't expect the franchise to become different for you. Especially if you end up playing it heaps, even though you dislike the gameplay, and happen to have 1000+ posts on a fan-forum dedicated to the game. The developers will just laugh at you.

Think about it. It's like me saying that ice-cream is too sugary, commenting that future ice-cream products from a certain company should have less sugar, and yet eating a bucket of ice-cream a day nonetheless. What incentive do they actually have to change? To please the customer? I'm sorry, I'm clearly already well pleased.

You are so completely wrong I can't even begin to fathom how wrong you are. If someone plays a game and wished they were more challanged by the game and hopes that the next one in the series provides that added challange/fun it is a very valid thought and complaint/suggestion (call it what you like). Now if you disagree, be my guest. But please don't go asking people to play a different game as then you simply show you do not really understand what this discussion is really about and you contribute nothing to the flow of it.

[Onehouse]

oh hey look another person that want games to be "hard work that take lots of skill"

i like diablo 2 because i can obliterate entire screens of monsters by so much as farting in their general direction

wonder when developers will remember that games are supposed to be fun, seems that all MMO games (including WoW) seem to have forgotten that aspect

if i want to use and show "skill" i'll go do something actually intellectually or physically demanding

With a beefed up end game character you can do this if you backtrack and at the same time you could get a challange if you wanted to. Diablo2 doesn't give this option until you already beat the game 2 times and then some. I hope we get this option from the start or way earlier in D3.

[sbn]

Diablo has never been about skill, and anyone thinking that this game needs skills is seriously fooling themselves. This is point and hold button down until enemy is dead. This is why I find the whole PvP aspect just utterly idiotic and lame. Truth is it mostly comes down to who has the best items.

If you want to play a game that requires skills, go play any number of FPS games, those require skill to be good. Average players need to use mostly some weapon that can spray godly amounts of bullets just to get one hit. But the elite or skilled can simply use a one shot rifle and consistently have a high kill ratio, there is NOTHING in Diablo games that is in any way close or similar.

[Onehouse]

Diablo is about being insanely powerful and wiping out hordes of monsters at once, not taking 1 mob at a time like in WoW. Get over it.

Sometimes in hell I feel it's me vs tons of monsters and yet, I have troubles bringing down even one of them. Sometimes the answer is to fall back single them out and slay them one by one. The only type of skill required there though is to know how to "hit and run" and drink your pots before you die. Perhaps some TP abuse and so on. But really, it's not all that demanding, yet you still don't slay tons of monsters rapidly while being insanely overpowered.

Skill in d2 is about knowing about what internet sites to go to and read up about the latest cookie cutter build. What sites to go to to learn about all the runewords and what items works best for said build. In D3 I hope the gameplay itself will require more skills than it did in D2. Even if it's not by much I will be happy even though I hope it is by much.

I like what we seen with D3 so far. Stun mobs so they drop shields, break the wall over a bunch of mobs. I hope there are tons more they still havent shown. With more options come more strategy possibilities. I just hope it will be rewarding when I train a whole dungeon floor over to my mate who stands ready to fell a couple of walls over them :crazyeyes:

[Sein Schatten]

Diablo has never been about skill, and anyone thinking that this game needs skills is seriously fooling themselves. This is point and hold button down until enemy is dead. This is why I find the whole PvP aspect just utterly idiotic and lame. Truth is it mostly comes down to who has the best items.

If you want to play a game that requires skills, go play any number of FPS games, those require skill to be good. Average players need to use mostly some weapon that can spray godly amounts of bullets just to get one hit. But the elite or skilled can simply use a one shot rifle and consistently have a high kill ratio, there is NOTHING in Diablo games that is in any way close or similar.

I agree, mostly.

The beginning of the career of a character is not that easy. You need to maneuver, use the placeholder skills to the best advantage and beef them up with +skill items you bought from the vendor or found. When you get the "main" skills, it gets easier and easier as you are only using those.

I also would like to point out, that skill is more of a subjective description. Do people who find out killer combos in GW have skill? I would say yes. Do people who find out awesome builds in D2 have skill? I would say yes. Why do people think only reaction games like FPS take skill?

[Onehouse]

Why do people think only reaction games like FPS take skill?

I think it's how you define skill. In Diablo2, what will differentiate a good player from a bad player? The good player dies less? The good player kills more bosses faster? The good player should have better items after a set period of time and so on. But really, it's kinda stupid to meassure skill against other players and how they perform.

Rather I think this discussion is about how the player gets challanged by the game. You compete against the game and not against other players. Can the game be made in a way that you really struggle the first runs through the game but after a year of playing it you look back and can't really understand how you could be struggeling. In D2 there isn't really such a feeling. I feel equally good at D2 now as I did during my first playthroughs.

While in FPS you compete against real humans, where you need hand to eye coordination, a strong sense of tactics, map awareness. FPS and RTS all have a learning curve and after that it is the skill that sets the players apart. D2 only has a learning curve and after that... well you get my point. PVP in D2, well, it's usually commonly agreed that who ever has the best items wins, so no, D2 pvp is not skillbased in the sense of how FPS's and RTS's are. Perhaps if you did naked dueling or everyone had the same gear dueling you could see that some players won more than others, ok, they have more skill than the rest, but I think it would be harder for them to really dominate the way it's possible in other types of games.

[Sein Schatten]

I think it's how you define skill. In Diablo2, what will differentiate a good player from a bad player?

Similar to GW. Character builds, gear choices, damage output, survival...
Okay, if you think only FPS games require skill... that is your prerogative. :)


"ok, they have more skill than the rest, but I think it would be harder for them to really dominate the way it's possible in other types of games."

lol. Some people are really bad. ;) And I believe good players will dominate bad players. Can't back that up, though.

[Spero]

oh hey look another person that want games to be "hard work that take lots of skill"

i like diablo 2 because i can obliterate entire screens of monsters by so much as farting in their general direction

wonder when developers will remember that games are supposed to be fun, seems that all MMO games (including WoW) seem to have forgotten that aspect

if i want to use and show "skill" i'll go do something actually intellectually or physically demanding
I agree with you completely. I think D2 hooked me because it was fun to be able to create over powered builds and kill a lot of stuff. However, if you jump in and guess what skills to use and where to use your points - you might not kill much at all.

I think it's about bragging on the internet. D2 can be difficult or easy, depending on which character/build you decide to play and how you equip that character. Also, it is extremely complex when you get into the details of where to put points and how to equip your characters. That can become simple if you lift a build from the internet, but if you research and do it all yourself, that's a lot of thinking. So if you're complaining that D2 was too easy, did you play naked characters? Did you invent your own builds? Or did you cookie cutter? How about Hard Core? I went Hard Core and it was the best thing I ever did.

[visom]

There really is skill involved in diablo, but the skill isn't how you handle your character during a duel (important though, but most people can handle their char just as well), but its mainly how you build your character and what items your character has.

There are a few geniuses that invented a bunch of good builds, worthy of being labeled as a true "pro", but eventually everyone will just copy them because they don't know how to make up their own.