View Full Version : Reduce time for high level MF
At high levels I'd like to reduce time wasting operations to the minimum. Maybe I want too much but here thery are:
- useful NPC's near the town portal (I hate Hratli in ActIII and Cain in ActV)
- Cain identifies automatically at first click (-50% clicks lol)
- quest that require intelligence and item finding are wonderful, but when you just need to pass between Acts they're simply annoying. No long quest to end acts! (ActII is an example.. damn tombs and staff)
- no one-time secret level (-_-')
- drop filter option (less time spent to check those stupid items) or drop window (more organized) and personal drops option for multiplayer (no ore quarrels if you want).
- bigger and expandable stash (already covered in many posts)
- refresh button\key for gambling window
- at level 90 (example), direct portal to boss lairs for fast MF and training. Come on, at those levels you just want the last damn rares.
- more walk speed for meleers and higher MF than sorceress or..
- teleport possible for all classes, but with restrictions. Meleers could only use it for travel, because there would be something like a "Teleport Recovery Rate" that prevents them to instantly attack (maybe only in multiplayer)
What do you think?
Aaiieeee
15-07-2008, 13:57
I kind of agree and disagree. What your proposing is that they take all the hard work out of the game.. I feel it would become boring very fast. Things like cain IDing is good and maybe NPCs near portals/Wps but then that would be quite unimaginative and again slightly dull.
Well, probably I'm reasoning too much from the single player side.
With a team it must be all different, but alone after level 90 I'm pretty done.
I think that Blizzad should increase drop chances for SP or decrease time and difficulty.
I've already finished the game (level 92 paladin) and I'm currently playing a sorceress at end of nightmare. At this point I find more fun to find special items than to do the hard work. I would have liked to find at least 80% of set and uniques, but it's too hard in SP with no trading.
useful npcs by portal: eh.. sure
cain auto-id: no; cain has a cost if you don't rescue him, and some people deliberately keep items unid for trade
no long quest to end acts: how about, no RUSHING since it ruins the game. =P completely disagree
no one time secret cow lvl - lol, ok
bigger stash - agree; unlimited stash for linear gold cost plz
drop filter option - i guess, why not
resfresh button for gambling window - yes, and for shops too
direct portal to boss - wtf? uhm... no
fast melee walk speed - sure
teleport for all classes - no way. and a cooldown for sorc tele too (1-3 sec minimum).
[edit] - yes, singleplayer should have much better drops than multiplayer. Totally agree.
cain auto-id: no; cain has a cost if you don't rescue him, and some people deliberately keep items unid for trade
If it is done on first click of Cain, this would be okay. Just don't click on him if you don't want items id. It would still reduce if Cain click then click identify Items. I like this idea.
sicilian
16-07-2008, 18:47
Useful NPCs near portal... maybe. Better I think to just have everyone capable of repair and healing, but all sell different things, but even that seems cheesy.
I like the one time secret levels, I just think they shouldn't be used for MF. Make the rewards more fun, rather than practical.
Drop filter options, etc... sure. I'm all for customization and being able to tweak your game experience.
Refresh button... don't like it at all. For gambling, you might as well just have a scroll bar with every item available to gamble at your level. For vendors, it would make it too easy to cycle through and find the good stuff. I'm in the camp that thinks having vendors occasionally sell REALLY good stuff is one way to make gold more valuable... with a refresh, players would save up a crap ton of gold and then just hit refresh until something good popped up. Cheap.
Walk speed should be equal for all characters, but each class should have an escape ability, like teleport, leap, horrify for the WD, etc.
I think teleport should have a cool down anyway, to avoid MF cheesiness.
AlexanderM
17-07-2008, 07:14
I think the idea of "one escape spell/skill per class" will show up. In the game play video we saw the barbarian use leap as a dodging maneuver and the ground stomp to stun enemies, and the witch doctor's horrify worked similarly well to incapacitate and provide an escape. Similar to WoW (which I'm not a big fan of), each class might end up with similar utility spells that accomplish the same tasks, the damage skills/spells will probably be where the strategic differences appear.
As for the NPCs near town portal, eh, sprawling cities are always more interesting though, and that sort of necessitates that the NPCs be dispersed. How about large cities having a market district with lots of vendor NPCs, but all the quest givers and travelers (i.e. Warriv in Act I) would be in their homes, or at the edge at the gates/port/etc.
Cow level-type areas need to be gone, a joke is fine, but a joke that provided massive leveling and drop potentials for the longest time is ridiculous. I say the special area should be a difficult dungeon, with a very special class specific bonus at the end (maybe something that wouldn't display existing equipment, like a stat or resist bonus similar to Malah's scroll, but class specific). Bonus points if the dungeon is solo-only, kind of a trial-by-fire, one player against a gauntlet of horrors.
Expandable stash? Yes, but costly. I think the bag system we caught a glimpse of in the trailer probably solves this issue more or less. I'd like to see an inter-character stash, but that's a bit unlikely I think.
Edit: Boss portals = No way. I'm hoping they remedy the problem of high-leveled characters bored with other things and interested in drops by making the gameplay longer, more involving, and more rewarding. Maybe making drops such that magic finding as a task wouldn't really be called for?
Wow, a lot of different opinions.
Only one thing received the same negative response (and probably I knew it): direct portal to bosses lair. I thought at it so the high level player shouldn't have to endlessly run down 5 useless maps even if he's just interested in the final drop\reward.
Anyway I think AlexanderM got the point: MF in the same areas are quite boring (except when you see THE drop hehe). More difficult side-quest labyrinth and less repetitive training would be great.
Anyway for some hell quests I'd like more plot and intelligent approach, like solve an unique riddle or a mystery (D1 is a very good example). MF would be a suicide, however, without a portal or other solutions (like one-time fixed non tradable reward: +N skills or attributes).
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About teleport, I wasn't reasoning for an "escape spell", but for a "fast travel spell". If you pardon my stupid comparison, the sorceress MF on an "airplane" while all the others are on foot. If tele won't be for all, then I agree with a cooldown or less range.
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About the NPC's near the portal.. well yes, probably it wouldnt be visually interesting. I think that maybe Blizzard could let the player access all shops from a window after you explored all city.
Remember that I'm talking for hight level characters, because when you are at the beginning it's a pleasure to run around and waste time.
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Rushing the first time you play has no sense indeed..but if you just need to use another character for rewards or other things (like open the red portal), long end quests are simply annoying.
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No refresh for vendors window of course. Only for gambling (less useless clicks there too).
- useful NPC's near the town portal (I hate Hratli in ActIII and Cain in ActV)Dungeon-town travel time will probably be instantaneous like DII. I don't think they're going to encourage that insta-warp feeling too much, though, so I think they'll still force you to spend a few seconds in town.
- Cain identifies automatically at first click (-50% clicks lol)Okay, as long as he explains that he'll automatically be identifying your items in the beginning of the game.
- quest that require intelligence and item finding are wonderful, but when you just need to pass between Acts they're simply annoying. No long quest to end acts! (ActII is an example.. damn tombs and staff)I'd prefer that in Nightmare and Hell mode, those types of quests still reward the player with useful things, rather than simply making them easier to bypass. The core of the game should focus on actually playing through the Acts and all the content Blizzard developed.
- drop filter option (less time spent to check those stupid items) or drop window (more organized) and personal drops option for multiplayer (no ore quarrels if you want).
- bigger and expandable stash (already covered in many posts)
- refresh button\key for gambling windowSounds good to me!
- at level 90 (example), direct portal to boss lairs for fast MF and training. Come on, at those levels you just want the last damn rares.
No X 1 million.
- more walk speed for meleers and higher MF than sorceress or..I think DII's run speed was already too out-of-control fast for most characters. I'm all about face-paced gameplay, but it shouldn't turn into hyper-mode.
- teleport possible for all classes, but with restrictions. Meleers could only use it for travel, because there would be something like a "Teleport Recovery Rate" that prevents them to instantly attack (maybe only in multiplayer)Won't happen, because there's no sensible reason why classes like the Barbarian should be able to teleport. Personally, I thought it was game-breaking and economy-ruining that in DII, players could bypass all content by.. teleporting through it.
I'd like there to be a rule for teleport -- if it's included -- that you can teleport only to areas that have already been uncovered on the map. Skipping zones should never be encouraged.
I think you have some good ideas, but I think you're a big fan of that "Diablo II Super Hyper Unique Slots Machine Game" that end-game DII became.. and I am not. I'd like to see the game grow beyond that type of mindless "Create Game, click Durance of Hate, teleport to Mephisto, kill, loot, Quit Game, repeat" cycle.
Actually is Andariel+(LK)+Meph+FrigidWP+Pindle+(Nightm Baal) then repeat :jig:
I've already played a lot, so now I'm MF with my sorceress to find items for all other classes.
If with the words "see the game grow beyond that" you hope for a new idea to replace MF in D3 then I agree we need it. Otherwise I don't know what you mean..
I mean "grow beyond it" as in.. I'd like to see them explore other avenues of fun at end-game. I know farming's fun -- I enjoy it too -- but I think it's sort of a "dumb addiction" type of fun that not many of us would miss if there was another alternative. Personally, I don't think the end-game of such a great ARPG should boil down to an "item slot machine", and that actually playing through the game's content should be more rewarding than anything else. The argument against replaying content is that "we've already played through the Acts 100 times and are tired of it!" but my response would be, "And that's different than farming the same bosses 1000 times?"
Allow a mindless, 'quick' way to get items and everyone's going to do it, eventually narrowing the choice of games to "so-and-so boss run!!" Furthermore, easy item-farming will destroy the market in-game. This may not have been such an issue 8 years ago with DII, but I think it will be now, especially if there's any sort of Auction House.
I was initially in favor of boss-farming, but the more I think about it .. I could just see it as a step away from what could possibly be a better, healthier alternative for the game.
Well, until Blizzard will not change drop total randomness, people will always search for bosses with higher unique item chances.
I've spent months slowly training and MF with my Paladin because I didn't know of drop formulas and sorceress power. Now that I'm playing with her I see the difference!
Personally I'd like to find all special objects for curiosity and to equip other characters with good items. If there were other challenging working methods I'd surely enjoy more, but in D2 there are no other ways.
We'll see if Blizzard will manage to find other ideas for D3
AlexanderM
21-07-2008, 16:43
Idea: People wouldn't run bosses if you could only kill them once. From a farming perspective this is heinous, I'm sure, but if each boss was a once-per-difficulty thing, and far more epic (Mephisto was never all that scary, especially compared to Diablo) the drops could be similarly epic, but only once. People would be encouraged to run areas with lots of difficult monsters, maybe even do full clears of an entire act?
I realize however that this goes against some basic Diablo series philosophy, that monsters come back when you leave the game, but story-line based bosses should stay gone. I always wondered how Mephisto is alive and well, when I'd already smashed his soulstone!
Ugh.. so people would need 10 more years to collect all uniques.. imagine a stupid Diablo drop then.. +_+
People would simple farm the last levels.. where's the big difference?
If there would also be new official side-quests downloable from internet maybe it would work (like mini frequent expansions).
Anyway I liked the idea of one-time-kill in D1. All monsters dead on the ground made me happy and safe. However I didn't know much of uniques, MF, multiplayer and difficulties back then..
AlexanderM
21-07-2008, 21:07
It's all speculation at this point. Diablo 2 was a world away from D1 (and again LOD added a whole new dimension to D2, item wise). Maybe D3 will be structured in such a way that boss-running will either be pointless or too unrewarding compared to simple straight-through play, or drops will be good enough that no one will want to devote time to item-huntery. I think that +magic find as a mod might be going away though, at least as we know it now.
The idea of new side-quests and more random (and new) content is good. I'd also like to see boss-monsters have a bit of randomness to them as well, being kept on your toes is always a plus.
JubalBane
21-07-2008, 22:23
I hope that D3 is completely nixed in terms of magic find. Normal drops should be average to above average in "coolness" in terms of look and function. I would like to see some player skill added to the game play. In D2 almost every single character had an Ethereal Breath of the Dying weapon as one of the top choices for making the character. Why bother playing the game if it requires the massive hardest to get weapons to finish. It only encourages the bots, hackers, etc. As a test I took an Amazon and didn't allocate any skill point for her, loaded her with chains of honor, EBotd, ect and housed the game with out breaking a sweat. That is when I knew it was over for the fun factor. I also tried playing an Amazon using several different skills and found only equipment and for the most part could not get past nightmare level. Why have a hell level if you have to buy super items from traders, bot herders, hackers, etc. I should have had some reasonable chance to finish the entire game with found items, character skills/attributes, and some player skill and player knowledge.
I would like to see quest items that can be used to further the game on a fighting level. Win the weapon/spell/item that allows you a better than even chance of killing stuff on the next area. Not just modified keys that unlock said areas.
Skills and items should means something relative to where they occur. A level 1 whirlwind should be kick azz for many areas and as the skill scales up so should the difficulty. Item upgrades would be a good idea. Hold on to that +1 to damage sword as you will get a chance to add magic properties to it as you go through the game.
Item hunting for me is a lot like playing a thousand hours of mindsweeper. You have to think a little, play a little but ultimately it is boring and not really in the spirit of an adventure quest game. A game that has "The Grind" built right into it is poorly designed and flawed from the start. IMHO.
Nightswipe
23-07-2008, 05:08
About the identify aspect... It would be easy just to set in it options if he is to identify or not. Assuming we have to identify things in D3 ;)
All chars can finish hell difficulty untwinked if played right, stop talking BS.
Nimbostratus
25-07-2008, 17:16
All chars can finish hell difficulty untwinked if played right, stop talking BS.
True, but think more in terms of practicality rather than possibility. There's a world of difference between the high end items and what you can find on an untwinked playthrough. Not every player is skilled enough to take any char through Hell completely untwinked, and even less players want to.
The power gap between items you can expect to find on a single playthrough and top end items should be reduced. The chance to find the top end items themselves should remain the same.
JubalBane
25-07-2008, 19:48
All chars can finish hell difficulty untwinked if played right, stop talking BS.
The only class I could consistently play /8 players hardcore through hell mode was a Fishymancer.
So in theory yes, you can but it is more theory than practicality.
I lost count of the softcore characters that I gave up on because they got into a death loop. Start the character -> portal to Worldstone -> die 2 seconds later -> rinse -> repeat because you would like to keep your equipment and it is laying in the Worldstone keep.
After about 30 minutes of that with out being able to run away, fight my way out, teleport, etc. I just scrap the character because the game became as much fun as playing Tic Tac Toe. A couple of times I just gave in and used ATMA to mule in some high powered items and just like magic I was able to fight my way out. But again the game got reduced to a math equation on what items I was able to afford to buy/trade versus how far in the game I wanted to play. I took a twinked Amazon with god gear but with out using any Amazon skill through /8 Hardcore Hell in about 8 hours from start to finish. Yeah I finished the game but it was as much fun as filling out an Excel spread sheet formula. I was never able to get a /8 Hardcore untwinked Amazon through Hell and it took months to get as far as I did. It was a lot more fun so I am not complaining but she died in the first act of Hell so it was annoying to play that long and hard and get killed by a corrupted rogue ice arrow. If I had been swarmed or took multiple arrows I would have been O.K. with it, after all that is part of the game. But she got potted by one over powered ice arrow. :crazyeyes:
For a meleer Paladin is hard to end hell untwinked, believe me.
I've finished it at about level 90 after a lot of training and searching.
I didn't have much chance until I could find a high damage weapon (at least 150 average 1H), strong unique armor (700 minimum), great jewelery\charms for life\res\leech, a way to kill PI and overcome IM. And all this with poor MF.. not easy!
Anyway I never tried to rush and I died the less possible (for 1.10 CE and IM mostly).
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Nerdish and Stupid Diablo MF Parody (to show why I hate too much randomness in games):
-open dos prompt
-write echo %random%
-repeat until you get all first 100 numbers (doskey with 200% MF)
-enjoy? (and it's easier and faster than D2)
:thumbsdown:
(lol :dopey:)
Uh, you shouldn't be able to solo p8 untwinked through hell. p8 is supposed to be balanced for a team of 8 players so in theory it should be an extra challenge there for the best equipped chars only.
Well yes, I've finished hell only at P1 and now I managed to arrive at P3 (with danger).
I was answering at this strange opinion:
- All chars can finish hell difficulty untwinked if played right, stop talking BS.
stillman
26-07-2008, 18:30
If you put the NPCs right at your tp, then this makes fast run walk mod a bit obsolete. Jeeze, how about Blizzard changes our diapers for us and has the whole town following us into the battlefield?
Lol that wouldn't be a bad idea at all. Those people rely too much on miracles and heroes.
Anyway I think faster run\walk is for battle field, not town, and surely I'd prefer less time wasted there. Also I was talking of high levels when the game is already finished.
Best solution is no MF at all probably
Sein Schatten
26-07-2008, 23:10
-open dos prompt
-write echo %random%
-repeat until you get all first 100 numbers (doskey with 200% MF)
-enjoy?
AWESOME! I am doing this for the last 4 hours. Wo0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0t!!!!
BTW, are you an EXPERT BATCH PROGRAMMER? google couldn't tell me how I can make random numbers with batch.
Hehe :whistleblower:
I'm not a batch expert, but I'm currently making an unattended Windows install cd, so I'm playing with a bit of scripting.
I came across the %random% system variable and thought "Hey seems like diablo MF drop chances" and :scratchchin: there was the post lol.
Uh, you shouldn't be able to solo p8 untwinked through hell. p8 is supposed to be balanced for a team of 8 players so in theory it should be an extra challenge there for the best equipped chars only.
So far I had brought 3 characters through hell with players 8 untwinked.
If you use players 8 from the beginning then you gain more experience also as you go through the game, with the result that, even though the monsters get tougher, you have levelled up a lot more and have come across a lot more items, (including a few decent ones), which you can then use.
My current character, a level 90 Sorc, has just cleared the bloody foothills for the first time last night.
-No MF (maybe some other sort of MF type, but not 500-1000MF as in D2)
-No running 1-5 mobs for items, all monsters should have good chances to drop nice stuff at end game areas. Many times you find more dangerous monsters at normal areas than boss areas in D2 and still you are rewarded less.
-No frikin rushing, complicated but fun quests trough acts that cannot be bypassed or helped by people 20 levels or more higher than you. Rewarding quests. All main quests should give you something nice items, so your succeeding in harder areas wouldn't be about luck of getting the right items but the fact that you completed the quests and gained usefull rewards.
-I would go for limiting the townportal also.
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