View Full Version : Rushing?
hostileeffect
02-07-2008, 23:57
Are we going to have power leveling or rushing like in Diablo 2?
Patch 1.09, my orb/hydra sorcy could rush 7 people through hell difficulty, wondering if this is going to be possible at some point.
UnderAge
03-07-2008, 00:00
No way too tell this early.
Are we going to have power leveling or rushing like in Diablo 2?
Patch 1.09, my orb/hydra sorcy could rush 7 people through hell difficulty, wondering if this is going to be possible at some point.
How can you even think of asking this question? This saturday they announced that diablo 3 is coming, yes and you allready wonder if power rushing is a possiblity. I hope they wont make this kinda rushing possible!!
Because it's important to know well beforehand, can we effectively skip as much of the game as fast as we can... :unimpressed:
hostileeffect
03-07-2008, 00:11
If you leveled your own sorc, you had to waste skill points to get strong enough to make it to 99, while a rushed player has the advantage of not having to waste points, since there was no respecing in D2...
Apocalypse
03-07-2008, 02:52
first of all, rushing sucks. it completly ruins the game. secondly, no matter what game companies try to do players will always find ways to level faster so eventually some form of rushing will happen
saint_of_killers
03-07-2008, 04:52
Are we going to have power leveling or rushing like in Diablo 2?
Patch 1.09, my orb/hydra sorcy could rush 7 people through hell difficulty, wondering if this is going to be possible at some point.
great question. perhaps you should direct it to blizzard since they're the only ones who have played the game?
raveharu
03-07-2008, 04:58
Well I guess Blizzard would've learnt a lesson from D2 on how to prevent rushing, which is done mostly for the sake of PvP.
There are certainly MANY ways to prevent rushing, like placing level cap(like D1) for each difficulty, so even if you did kill the Boss(if D3 still works this way) you still have to stay and level till you reach the requirement.
Leeching can be prevented by adding a level requirement cap.
Say a lvl 100 monster requires at least 100-20= level 80 to leech the xp.
I hope there's no rushing + super leveling...hopefully some WoW-like system with quest-exp and such will be implemented to encourage questing, etc.
Apocalypse
03-07-2008, 05:44
like i said, you can do alot to prevent power leveling but eventually people always find a way to get where they wanna get faster
havedeath
03-07-2008, 05:45
I hope not. Rushing is the worst part about Diablo II.
They will most likely not let us rush the same way we do in D2, but we will find a way. We always find a way to do anything.
raveharu
03-07-2008, 05:49
They will most likely not let us rush the same way we do in D2, but we will find a way. We always find a way to do anything.
with the level cap and level requirement implemented, its pretty much impossible.
Evrae Altana
03-07-2008, 06:23
I hope there's no rushing in D3. Rushed players (myself included) do miss out on a lot of things in D2.
i'm really hoping they don't have any spells like that, and force ppl to play with strategy..or force them to play in general, b/c diablo 2 right now is a joke! u can go from 1-99 naked
I hope not. Rushing is the worst part about Diablo II.
How is this the worst part? YOU have the option to play the game how YOU want. Nobody makes you rush.
When the game is new and fresh it will be enjoyable to play it through. But the fact remains that after some time it will get boring to some degree. The fact remains that without rushing in D2 and fast leveling in Chaos or Ubers, a LOT of players would no longer be around...myself included. The joy of spending weeks to get a character up is no longer there. Keep in mind I have been playing the Diablo series since the begining back in the 90s. I purchased D2 on the day it came out some 8 years ago.
It was fine when I returned to the game 2 years ago to take it somewhat slow. But after a few years people will simply not have the interest and patience. The end result is that the game will die out. What keeps D2 popular to this day is that people like me can continue to play the way we want. And spending weeks re-doing a char is not enjoyable at all. After the last ladder reset I decided to re-make my 2x barbs and Necro that I was unhappy with. The fact that I was able to rush them through and get them back to a decent level made it painless. If I had to go through the entire game, I game I have now played for 8 years, I simply would have quit.
Again, I can NOT stress enough. NOBODY makes YOU rush, or join Cow games, or Chaos, or Ubers. It is YOUR choice. So please do not impose your beliefs on how the game is played on others. It is apparent to almost anyone that at this time the preferred method of playing D2 is to rush. Now this may certainly not be the case with D3 at the beginning. But after 3-4 years, people will get bored and quit.
So think of it this way, more players online, the more incentive Blizzard has to continue supporting the game. So what if someone of use decide to rush a character after a couple of years, how does this affect ANY of you in ANY way? It does NOT!
How is this the worst part? YOU have the option to play the game how YOU want. Nobody makes you rush.
I highly doubt blizzard supports players getting rushed through the game skipping content. Not to mention it makes the game quite old really fast! When ppl play a game and their is no challenge or real point in playin..they get bored and stop playing, but thats not to say they won't eventually return when they forget how boring/pointless it actually is..
Diablo 2, when u get rushed naked to level 99/have ur gear.. u walk around for 10 mins goin i look cool. After that is usually a week of log-ins staring at how cool ur gear is, and eventually u quit. (not to mention it puts a bash on the games economy)
Look at WoW..u think they would have as many ppl playing it if u could just rush to the end of all the content? no! u must earn it with every character which makes everything in the game that much more vaulable!
Want the game to keep it's value then no rush!
Rushing through a game is never good.. players need discipline!
ramble ramble
it's like watching ur favorite movies that u have already seen a million times.. no matter how many times u have seen it, u don't just cut to the end.
well, i have to say this... rushing is a must.
you cant reset ur stats or skills, you have to remake ur char if u want other setup. not like in wow, where stats dont exist and for other talent setup you just reset them.
i remade a char just because i put 5 points to much in strenght by a mistake or once i killed baal on hell at lvl 95 (yeah i like my chars as champions).
and this... 1-70 in wow takes u less time than 1-99 in d2.
well, i have to say this... rushing is a must.
you cant reset ur stats or skills, you have to remake ur char if u want other setup. not like in wow, where stats dont exist and for other talent setup you just reset them.
i remade a char just because i put 5 points to much in strenght by a mistake or once i killed baal on hell at lvl 95 (yeah i like my chars as champions).
and this... 1-70 in wow takes u less time than 1-99 in d2.
/facepalm
Sigh*
Ubiquitous Chaos
03-07-2008, 10:10
I'm personally of a mind that rushing is perfectly fine. Many people found the PvM in D2 to be lackluster especially after the first time through, but loved the end game PvP. Rushing allowed them to forego the tedium of playing through something they strongly disliked and gave them the opportunity to start what was, for them, the fun part of the game. It was also convnient for those with a high level character or 2 not to have to push through the same tedious content just to reroll their character[s]. It also didn't effect the playstyle of those who genuinely enjoyed the PvM of D2. The same will be true for D3 if rushing is possible. There's no sense limiting the gameplay of others because you feel the game should be played a certain way.
Edit: It's worth mentioning WoW here. One of the things that burned me out from playing alts was the process of leveling them through the ad tedium content (after several times through that is).
I'm personally of a mind that rushing is perfectly fine. Many people found the PvM in D2 to be lackluster especially after the first time through, but loved the end game PvP. Rushing allowed them to forego the tedium of playing through something they strongly disliked and gave them the opportunity to start what was, for them, the fun part of the game. It was also convnient for those with a high level character or 2 not to have to push through the same tedious content just to reroll their character[s]. It also didn't effect the playstyle of those who genuinely enjoyed the PvM of D2. The same will be true for D3 if rushing is possible. There's no sense limiting the gameplay of others because you feel the game should be played a certain way.
Edit: It's worth mentioning WoW here. One of the things that burned me out from playing alts was the process of leveling them through the ad tedium content (after several times through that is).
Here here! Again I can not stress enough: Nobody MAKES YOU rush. Please people do not impose YOUR ideas of how the game should be played on others. There are tons of us who find that after a few years, playing through the game is just not as interesting. I have yet to met a player from the old pre-1.10 days that prefers Baal runs to Cow games.
I strongly second what Ubiquitous Chaos says: "There's no sense limiting the gameplay of others because you feel the game should be played a certain way."
I'm not against rushing (very much) but I don't see the point in it. If you think the game is too boring to actually play it, how does rushing make it more interesting? So you skip the game to get to the most boring part of all, boss runs. Yawn.
As for enforcing one's way upon others, that's not an argument. I see this a lot in the respecs thread. You play how you want to and no-one can say anything about it. I bet maphackers think the same.
Rushing doesn't just change how you play, it changes how the game plays. For everyone. In single player, get rushed by self made bots all day for all I care. In multiplayer, it impacts everyone. As to how, I'm sure you can figure that out on your own.
Unfortunately, the dichotomy that RPG's run is this:
If leveling time is even close to long, then for PvP you need either a) rushing or b) respecs.
Whichever you think is the lesser of the two evils is likely dependant on what you like more.
The fact is inclusion of PvP ultimately costs PvE in D2 greatly, not only in terms of balance but also in terms of either respeccing or rushing.
Or they could do the Guildwars thing, have a way to create pvp only characters and remove both respecing and rushing.
Rushing is really detrimental to PvE(M) though because it does bypass the whole game, and to "keep up with the Joneses" you need to rush too. One of the basic laws of economics is that people respond to incentives, and if rushing is the most profitable way to play people will feel obligated to do it, even if it isn't as fun as actually leveling a character. And that's why its bad, it simply leads to degenerative gameplay.
I got rushed by friends and rushed a LOT of others, but the best part of the game was most certainly going from level 1 to 80 legitly. It wasn't hard to get through the game, which I believe was intended, but it certainly made teamwork and player interaction much more required than what a standard game would deem necessary. If D3 has rushing capabilities, I wouldn't deem it neither good or bad. Its a shortcut that people are allowed to take, and I see no negatives in that. In the end, atleast at some point, people will need to go through the game themselves anyway.
KT
I'm not against rushing (very much) but I don't see the point in it. If you think the game is too boring to actually play it, how does rushing make it more interesting? So you skip the game to get to the most boring part of all, boss runs. Yawn.
As for enforcing one's way upon others, that's not an argument. I see this a lot in the respecs thread. You play how you want to and no-one can say anything about it. I bet maphackers think the same.
Rushing doesn't just change how you play, it changes how the game plays. For everyone. In single player, get rushed by self made bots all day for all I care. In multiplayer, it impacts everyone. As to how, I'm sure you can figure that out on your own.
Please explain how if I get rushed, in what manner would this affect you at all? I will not enforce you to join my rush, nor will I enforce you to do the rushing. You will not be obligated to level me either. You are always free even now to create a Chaos game with level restrictions even. Point here is that after a few years the excitement of D3 will be gone. Many players will not find the thrill of going through the whole game without rushing.
Again, rushing has absolutely 110% no effect on anyone else.
uzurpator
03-07-2008, 12:32
Add some quests that need to be accomplished alone. That will cut down rushing to a sensible degree (no quick taxi to 'Baalrun' equivalent, where 1 monster is worth 20 levels for a lv1 char).
Besides - I hope they make some end-game fun that do not revolve around doing the same goddamn monster / area. Like an instancing system where difficulty and place are chosen.
EDIT: Respecing will pretty much kill rushing as well.
Please explain how if I get rushed, in what manner would this affect you at all? I will not enforce you to join my rush, nor will I enforce you to do the rushing. You will not be obligated to level me either. You are always free even now to create a Chaos game with level restrictions even. Point here is that after a few years the excitement of D3 will be gone. Many players will not find the thrill of going through the whole game without rushing.
Again, rushing has absolutely 110% no effect on anyone else.
Actually, with things like competitive ladders and an in game economy, unless you're talking single player, EVERY advantage you have over someone else affects them.
True. If not that, people rushing left and right makes me think the community is full of idiots. That's why I only play with friends and in Hardcore, through the full game every time. Has it got boring once in eight years? Hell no.
What many of you are just simply failing to understand is you can not impose your idea and feelings on the game on others. You are really a small minority. The vast majority of players do prefer to get rushed. Again, take away this concept in D2, you would have very few players still online.
Competitive ladder play is not ruined by people getting rushed. Come one now, be sensible. If anything it is kids buying engimas and Hozs within the first few days. Last ladder I started out with a hammerdin, figuring this would be a good char to have that could run fast with Vigor, have a high vitality stats, and still do good damage. At one point I was in the top 30 very very close to surpassing into the top 20. I stopped giving a damn when I saw more and more other hammerdins popping up with Enigmas.
But the point I am trying to stress here is that a huge number of players choose to play this way. Take that away from them, the game will drop. You don't want that now do you? While you may not be bored playing through D2 after 8 years, vast majority simply do not find it all that amusing anymore.
Another aspect I would like to point out. What is left for me in this game is to have a decently higher level char in Hell to do Ubers. Going through Stoney field is not all that exciting. Done that, seen that. On a rare occurance I might have fun just playing around.
Again, take away rushing and good method to level, D3 will not last the same as D2. Do you really want D3 to have a short life?
Apocalypse
03-07-2008, 19:22
you see this is whats wrong with bliz. instead of spending years making a game and adding a more indepth story they should just create 5 characters, let all have 100 skill points and turn the world into 1 huge arena. there ya go, no need to be rushed as you can just play the end game once you open the box and save 5 years worth of dev time
stillman
03-07-2008, 19:43
If Blizzard wanted us to get rushed, then here is how the game would go:
Act 1, you walk into the blood moor and Andariel is there waiting for you just outside of town. Someone better than you kills her. On to Act3, which is just Meph's fight pad, no town. You kill Meph all you want and take his stuff to your heart's content. Then it's on to the throne room, because hitting those act 4 seals is too much for some people.
How about Blizzard rigs the d3 end game scenerio so the end bosses give you LESS exp than cleaning out areas of regular monsters? Good luck getting bored of cleaning out the whole game 100 times to reach lev 99. It's easy to get bored of Baal, but no one will get bored of an entire act.
fallen angel of satan
03-07-2008, 19:58
blizzard clearly do not want rushing to be super easy, look back to the 1.10 changes, stopping rushes to hell to then cow. then look at WoW, rushing in that game is impossible, it is faster to level with people your own lvl than high lvls.
of course there are ways to still spol it, ie the current record (just under 2 days 0-70?) invloves 1 guy running around tagging as many mobs as he can, while a team of people not partyied with him kill them, so he then gets the full xp while killing mobs at 20 times the rate.
these kind of tactics are not possible to repeat over and pver though.
so dont expect rushing to be in diabloe3 in the same way it is in D2
i think ppl need to man the **** up!
Rushing destroys the game, and the way it was meant to be played.. u have waited 8 years for diablo 3, and u want to rush through n be bored? before i would ***** about rushing.. i would be asking for more content!
damn newbs! adjust ur skirts!
p.s.
i hope it takes months to hit max level, just to spite u girls
Don't bypass the word filter
Mysteria
03-07-2008, 21:40
my orb/hydra sorcy could rush 7 people through hell difficulty
The guy is just trying to brag about his AWESOME sorc that no one cares about. Period. Just ignore sad people like this and they'll shut up.
Gordondondnb
03-07-2008, 21:58
Wow, lots of hostility on this thread. I have played this game both as a hardcore, boss killin fool and as a legit, do-it-yourself player. Both play styles have merit. I am trying to play my Javazon fully solo right now, and am already feeling the economy slip away from me. By the time I get her to a high enough level to find decent items, all non-godly drops will be worthless in this ladder season. I am on the brink of getting rushed quickly to skip the slow stuff, but I can't make up my mind. This sort of conundrum has occurred several times before in this game. I look forward to a game that rewards us for playing through in a legit manner, and avoids the things that we want to skip(tedious act 2 quests, act 3's atrocious layout). I have faith that Blizzard will give us a game that has great replay value, and will adapt (through updates) to preferred playing styles.
For the record, trading is as much fun as the actual game, and a vital part of what keeps us playing. Saying that your rushing has no effect on others on the realms is ignorant.
To the one who repeatedly says that non-rushers shouldn't impose their ideas on those who rush: rushing is not how the game is meant to be played, otherwise Blizzard would just give people character editors where they could make their own maxed chars once they "get bored after a few years".
You've spent too much time in the warped, DBZ'd D2 where anything is possible.
If people should be allowed to rush, etc since it doesn't harm anyone else (and it DOES harm others), there's no drawing the line between what is right and wrong. I could say that I only use my 100 mile/second tele hacks and 1 shot kill hacks in PvE so it's not hurting anyone else. Moreover, rushing results in what we have in D2 right now: the absence of legit level/quest games, making it virtually impossible for those who want to play through each act the way it was meant to be to do so.
If you want rushing, etc. just stick with D2 while the rest of the people who actually enjoy the game for what is it move on to D3.
DougDadyUsWest
03-07-2008, 22:08
Rushing does have an effect on the gaming community, whether you wish to admit it or not. I don't think it is a significant detriment to the economy though. Players that are rushing/getting rushed, can typically power through the game very quickly, whether or not they are rushed or not. Perhaps what we are arguing about here is parity, and frankly, I don't want my games to be lollipops and sunshine and rainbows. Let the weaker players struggle to gain a foothold in the economy. Dupes, on the other hand, significantly cheapen gameplay for legit players.
Rashiminos
03-07-2008, 23:02
Are we going to have power leveling or rushing like in Diablo 2?
Patch 1.09, my orb/hydra sorcy could rush 7 people through hell difficulty, wondering if this is going to be possible at some point.
As much as the game will allow, given player behavior in D2....
i think ppl need to man the F**K up!
Rushing destroys the game, and the way it was meant to be played.. u have waited 8 years for diablo 3, and u want to rush through n be bored? before i would ***** about rushing.. i would be asking for more content!
damn newbs! adjust ur skirts!
p.s.
i hope it takes months to hit max level, just to spite u girls
Who is talking about rushing the first day the game comes out? You are obviously missing the who damn point. Play through the game at first, it will be fun. But in 2015 will it still have the same excitement for MOST? I am talking about people who will purchase the game the day it comes out.
How hard is it to figure out that as of now in D2, without rushing there would be a significant drop in players. Can you guess what happens when hardly anybody is left to play the game? Sorry but someone who just recently joined, for all we know you have only played D2 for a month, so maybe it is interesting for you. But do not impose YOUR idea of how the game should be played on others. You are in a small minority sorry to say, very small.
amusingtugboat
04-07-2008, 03:26
Ill use the same argument all the respec lovers use. If you dont want it dont use it. it doesnt hurt your gameplay experience now does it. Im guessing that there will be some kinda rushing but not getting to the end at level 1.
Ill use the same argument all the respec lovers use. If you dont want it dont use it. it doesnt hurt your gameplay experience now does it. Im guessing that there will be some kinda rushing but not getting to the end at level 1.
This is a stupid argument in a multiplayer game. It does affect their experience. You could use the exact same argument for adding character editors to b.net because hey, it doesnt affect YOUR experience if you dont use one right?
In reality it does affect your experience because there's 3 reasons: #1 is that it diminishes the accomplishment of leveling a difficult build if people can just rush / respec to it. #2 it floods the economy more, so if you want to stay competetive economically and make new characters you have to rush. #3 it skews the competitive ladder.
It does affect everyone because it affects your characters power level, and everyone in a multiplayer game is measured against everyone else.
This is a stupid argument in a multiplayer game. It does affect their experience. You could use the exact same argument for adding character editors to b.net because hey, it doesnt affect YOUR experience if you dont use one right?
This is completely different argument, now you are comparing to using 3rd party programs?
In reality it does affect your experience because there's 3 reasons: #1 is that it diminishes the accomplishment of leveling a difficult build if people can just rush / respec to it. #2 it floods the economy more, so if you want to stay competetive economically and make new characters you have to rush. #3 it skews the competitive ladder.
Wait, is this game about item fetish or playing it through? Who gives a damn about the "economy", there shouldn't be one in the first place. Look now at D2 and all it has become is one big item trading shop. So who is actually playing the game? Ever looked at the game list for Hell? 95% is nothing but trades.
More importantly, who are you and why do you care how this affects others experience? Now YOU are imposing YOUR beliefs on others.
Do you want to know what really ruins competitive ladder? Item shops, and people who simply have no life outside of Diablo to play the game 24/7. So when you get guys who are buying Enigma, Shako, and Hoz while all you have is the crap you find on the ground, not much of a comparison there. Or how about the players using certain programs to load multiple chars in their own private game so drops will be better and all theirs while the rest of the schmucks have to fight it out for drops. Exactly who is being rushed on the first few days of ladder anyways? And no matter what, regardless of rushing or not, people will find some way to power level.
It does affect everyone because it affects your characters power level, and everyone in a multiplayer game is measured against everyone else.
Don't be so obsessed about other people, i.e. just simply mind your own business. You are welcome to easily start your own community of D3 purists who play the game all the way through. But I do ask, will you still have the same interest and excitement playing through after 6-7 years?
Again I will repeat over and over. Take away rushing and you will see a significant drop in players, that is a cold hard fact
I hope there is. If there was no option to rush through d2 and I had to go through each quest each time, then I would have stopped playing it many years ago.
I'd like to see rushing still exist.
I went through Diablo II, several times. Both rushed, and unrushed. I also did rushing, and honestly I found it a bit fun to rush others, and do it properly.
But then again I played hardcore..where you could die on a dime, and all you got back was whatever gear you were wearing at the time, if you were in a game where people would actually give you back your stuff.
It was fun..and usually I'd get rushed, or I would rush people to the point where the lower level was back equal with the general level of the group that they were playing with.
And often we would start new characters, just for the idea of having one odd team or another, fighting through together, without any rushes.
This is completely different argument, now you are comparing to using 3rd party programs?
No, it's the exact same argument. If your argument is that rushing doesn't affect other people even though it gives you an advantage, then the SAME argument is used for trainers and 3rd party programs. It doesn't affect other people so clearly it should be fine.
Wait, is this game about item fetish or playing it through? Who gives a damn about the "economy", there shouldn't be one in the first place. Look now at D2 and all it has become is one big item trading shop. So who is actually playing the game? Ever looked at the game list for Hell? 95% is nothing but trades.
More importantly, who are you and why do you care how this affects others experience? Now YOU are imposing YOUR beliefs on others.
Uh, you realize the reason 95% of people are trading is because people ENJOY IT. A large part of the game is the economy and the item collection and trading. To a lot of people it's fun. To simply dismiss it is unfathomably short sighted.
And Just to let you know, your first point contradicts your second point. The "you shouldnt push your beliefs on others" argument is also the exact same as the first argument. Unfortunately beliefs are a big part or rules. You don't think 3rd party programs should be used because YOU believe it's unfair. So you're pushing YOUR beliefs on OTHER people just as much as anyone who is saying that rushing ruins the game and shouldn't be allowed.
Don't be so obsessed about other people, i.e. just simply mind your own business. You are welcome to easily start your own community of D3 purists who play the game all the way through. But I do ask, will you still have the same interest and excitement playing through after 6-7 years?
Again I will repeat over and over. Take away rushing and you will see a significant drop in players, that is a cold hard fact
Uh, so we're back to "it doesn't affect you, you dont have to do it if you dont want to" argument? Even though that argument is both terrible and false? Sorry, it does affect me.
You're putting something in the game that leads to having a more powerful character much faster. That affects me not only in a competitive sense and the accomplishment sense, but now I have a choice to make: Do I want to be competitive or do I want to play the game completely for fun only. That question is difficult for a lot of people and whether you want to admit it or not it affects them.
I know why people argue for rushing, particularly because people like PvP and not PvE. However, the argument that "if you don't like it don't do it and it doesn't effect you" is patently false and it's fairly irritating to read it touted so often.
So a few weeks back I decided to re-do my Necro and Barb. I rushed them both to hell, Chaos'd them to 75, then put on the gear and stats. Please do explain how this affected YOU?
You can't. But your why would affect me. For you see this game is too old to get enjoyment out of spending weeks doing what I just did in a day. The end result of your idealogy is that I would simply not be playing. And guess what, there would be scores of others who would have quit long ago.
So please do explain how I affected you by rushing my Necro and Barb?
p.s. The point of this game is cooperative, aside from Pvp duels. So how this is a competitive edge because you wish to take some slow *** way to get through the game that takes weeks. Yeah, and keep in mind not everyone has 24/7 to play
So a few weeks back I decided to re-do my Necro and Barb. I rushed them both to hell, Chaos'd them to 75, then put on the gear and stats. Please do explain how this affected YOU?
You can't. But your why would affect me. For you see this game is too old to get enjoyment out of spending weeks doing what I just did in a day. The end result of your idealogy is that I would simply not be playing. And guess what, there would be scores of others who would have quit long ago.
So please do explain how I affected you by rushing my Necro and Barb?
p.s. The point of this game is cooperative, aside from Pvp duels. So how this is a competitive edge because you wish to take some slow *** way to get through the game that takes weeks. Yeah, and keep in mind not everyone has 24/7 to play
Ok so I went on Bnet last night and Duped 50 sojs for all my characters and then used maphack to do runs ultra fast. You didn't see me, so tell me, how does that affect YOU? *
It didn't affect you so it must be fine right?!?! Please explain to me how my duping and hacking affected you. Clearly it shouldn't be against the rules. I mean, it only affects ME right?
Of course if I couldn't dupe or cheat I'd quit. And a lot of people would quit if they took away dupes also, so obviously they shouldn't take away dupes or try to stop cheating because less people would be playing.
(your argument is purely hyperbole)
* I didn't actually do any of those things
Right when ladder reset I played through to hell the normal way the first time around. Afterwards I got bored, so I rushed 100 characters to hell and proceeded to make a bunch of high end runewords, which I then used to totally deck out my chars. This doesn't affect you in any way since I did it on my own.
PS: I also duped a bunch of these runes and made even more runewords so all 100 of my characters are swimming in runewords. Don't worry, though, this doesn't affect you so it's alright.
See what I did there?
Note: I wonder why so many people STILL play WoW? Even when most people have multiple level 70s epic'd out, there's still a huge player base. Moreover, these people continue to make new characters and level them to 70. Maybe it's because these people ENJOY playing the game. Just like WoW, there are people who play Diablo because they enjoy the quests and grouping. Don't be so quick to decide whether the majority of players enjoy playing through Diablo or not.
Ok so I went on Bnet last night and Duped 50 sojs for all my characters and then used maphack to do runs ultra fast. You didn't see me, so tell me, how does that affect YOU? *
It didn't affect you so it must be fine right?!?! Please explain to me how my duping and hacking affected you. Clearly it shouldn't be against the rules. I mean, it only affects ME right?
Of course if I couldn't dupe or cheat I'd quit. And a lot of people would quit if they took away dupes also, so obviously they shouldn't take away dupes or try to stop cheating because less people would be playing.
(your argument is purely hyperbole)
* I didn't actually do any of those things
Oh get in reality! Duping and using hacks are against the TOS for Bnet. Is rushing against the TOS? If so then about 95% of D2 players will now get banned.
And to tell you the truth, if you use maphack to do MF runs, well more power to you. I could give a **** what you do in your own game. Same for duping. If you dupe for yourself only, and do not trade any of them, well that is YOUR business. I am not going to tell you how to enjoy the game as long as it does not impact on me.
But when I rushed my Necro the other day, did this have ANY effect on you? Absolutely 110% NO! Starting to get the idea here folks? What people do when rushing does NOT *#*@ affect you other than it seems it makes you simply jealous. On the other hand, if we have it your way, your minority view of this game will affect the vast majority of players.
You know, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few and all. So enough with these idiotic and lame analogies, I still have not heard a decent argument as to how my rushed Necro and Barb recently affected you? Well?
"minority view", "vast majority of players"? Give me a break, D2 is dead, and has been for many years. 5-10 static games a night does not equal a thriving community. The people who care about playing the game properly (THE MAJORITY) have all left a long time ago. This will be the case with D3 if rushing/fast leveling isn't dealt with.
Oh get in reality! Duping and using hacks are against the TOS for Bnet. Is rushing against the TOS? If so then about 95% of D2 players will now get banned.
Uh, we're not arguing the rules. We're arguing about what should or should not be against the rules. You're arguing that Rushing should be fine and enabled by blizzard and I'm arguing that it shouldnt. I'm arguing that Duping and Hacking is fine and you're arguing that it's against the rules?
You're missing the point entirely. The point is, I'm using the exact same argument as you. It doesnt affect you so why should it be against the rules if it only affects me. The thing is, this argument isnt good justification for anything .
You know, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few and all. So enough with these idiotic and lame analogies, I still have not heard a decent argument as to how my rushed Necro and Barb recently affected you? Well?
Sorry man, but they aren't analogies. I'm using the same argument as you to weaken your argument, think of it as debate by contradiction. They arent lame and idiotic arguments.
The "needs" of the many outweigh the needs of the few? Well I'm sure many people figure they need enigma and cta, so clearly blizzard shouldnt do anything about duped runes right?
As for how your rushing affects me? That's not an issue because a) I quit D2 a while ago, and b) your rushing might not affect me on an individual level but everyone's rushing does affect me. and that's the point.
If you really want an example of how it works heres an example: I'm a HC player and I was gunning for a ladder spot because I'm competitive and I think it's fun. But I'm morally opposed to rushing because it clearly wasn't intended and blizzard was trying very hard to prevent rushing with 1.10. Unfortunately my character just died, like about 15 other people today. Now, to get back up on the ladder I have to start ALL THE WAY from the beginning, while the other 15 people, they just get a rush and power leveled back within 4 levels of where they were when they died within 5 hours. There, to compete I have to rush.
Its threads like this that make me totally avoid the official bnet forums =x
Rashiminos
04-07-2008, 11:12
Wait, is this game about item fetish or playing it through? Who gives a damn about the "economy", there shouldn't be one in the first place. Look now at D2 and all it has become is one big item trading shop. So who is actually playing the game? Ever looked at the game list for Hell? 95% is nothing but trades.
That's a sign of a cumbersome trading system... A lot of games are demanded for that particular use so that sellers can advertise without being annoying spambots.
Do you want to know what really ruins competitive ladder? Item shops, and people who simply have no life outside of Diablo to play the game 24/7.
Coming to D3 (most likely): Item Shops
Again I will repeat over and over. Take away rushing and you will see a significant drop in players, that is a cold hard fact
Uh, good riddance?
"minority view", "vast majority of players"? Give me a break, D2 is dead, and has been for many years. 5-10 static games a night does not equal a thriving community. The people who care about playing the game properly (THE MAJORITY) have all left a long time ago. This will be the case with D3 if rushing/fast leveling isn't dealt with.
Clearly you haven't played lately. I'm guessing you haven't experienced 1.10 at all either...
How is this the worst part? YOU have the option to play the game how YOU want. Nobody makes you rush.
When the game is new and fresh it will be enjoyable to play it through. But the fact remains that after some time it will get boring to some degree. The fact remains that without rushing in D2 and fast leveling in Chaos or Ubers, a LOT of players would no longer be around...myself included. The joy of spending weeks to get a character up is no longer there. Keep in mind I have been playing the Diablo series since the begining back in the 90s. I purchased D2 on the day it came out some 8 years ago.
It was fine when I returned to the game 2 years ago to take it somewhat slow. But after a few years people will simply not have the interest and patience. The end result is that the game will die out. What keeps D2 popular to this day is that people like me can continue to play the way we want. And spending weeks re-doing a char is not enjoyable at all. After the last ladder reset I decided to re-make my 2x barbs and Necro that I was unhappy with. The fact that I was able to rush them through and get them back to a decent level made it painless. If I had to go through the entire game, I game I have now played for 8 years, I simply would have quit.
Again, I can NOT stress enough. NOBODY makes YOU rush, or join Cow games, or Chaos, or Ubers. It is YOUR choice. So please do not impose your beliefs on how the game is played on others. It is apparent to almost anyone that at this time the preferred method of playing D2 is to rush. Now this may certainly not be the case with D3 at the beginning. But after 3-4 years, people will get bored and quit.
So think of it this way, more players online, the more incentive Blizzard has to continue supporting the game. So what if someone of use decide to rush a character after a couple of years, how does this affect ANY of you in ANY way? It does NOT!
Quote of the year.
as much as i can understand how you wouldnt want rushing. its so fun to sit behind a group of high lvls and watch you go from 1-30 in like 5 minutes :)
glenthemann
04-07-2008, 12:42
If you leveled your own sorc, you had to waste skill points to get strong enough to make it to 99, while a rushed player has the advantage of not having to waste points, since there was no respecing in D2...
While I agree mostly with everyone else, I do have to agree with this specific post. It is extremely hard for any sorceress (or most characters for that matter) to make it through the game solo without 'wasting' skill points, that is to say not being able to follow a cookie cutter build. What is the problem with that you ask? Well for a lot of the characters I have ever played you need to have this cookie cutter build to even stand a chance at soloing or magic finding in Hell mode.
Hopefully blizzard puts that into consideration.
I also agree fully with sbn's post, I just came back to the game and I am walking through untwinked with my necro; it takes a long time to walk through the game and when I am done my next character I will probably rush because I dont want to spend the time doing it again. Its not due to my lack of love for the game, its just due in part that I dont want to spend as he said, a week or two getting my character up there.
While I agree mostly with everyone else, I do have to agree with this specific post. It is extremely hard for any sorceress (or most characters for that matter) to make it through the game solo without 'wasting' skill points, that is to say not being able to follow a cookie cutter build. What is the problem with that you ask? Well for a lot of the characters I have ever played you need to have this cookie cutter build to even stand a chance at soloing or magic finding in Hell mode.
This is complete rubbish. Any char can melee their way up to level 30 without using any skills whatsoever. Heck, you act 2 merc can do this for you. Secondly, if you are a sorc, there are many prereqs that are actually synergies. Just because your aren't going to use ice bolt on your blizzard sorc at the end of the game, doesn't mean you can't use it at level 1-6.
No one needs rushing for a 'perfect' build.
Sein Schatten
04-07-2008, 14:53
This is complete rubbish. Any char can melee their way up to level 30 without using any skills whatsoever. Heck, you act 2 merc can do this for you. Secondly, if you are a sorc, there are many prereqs that are actually synergies. Just because your aren't going to use ice bolt on your blizzard sorc at the end of the game, doesn't mean you can't use it at level 1-6.
No one needs rushing for a 'perfect' build.
Exactly. You can get FO or whatever skill you need pretty easily solo, even in a 8 player game without twink items. You just need some patience and skill. :)
Anyway, rushing does not need to be against the rules. Blizzard just needs to implement exp distributions to stop it. IF they want to stop it, what I highly doubt. It is one of many points why D2 is still played by so many people.
I find rushing a good thing. Someone commented that rushing reduces the game's lifespan. That is true to a degree but I'd say it reduces a character's life span. Since it's easy to create new characters players are more likely to create more of them and get to experience a larger part of the game as a consequence.
Of course if you never really play through the content even once the rushing aspect is definitely detrimental to the overall experience but how many people really start the game by rushing?
Rushing gives you a choice and reduces the timesink aspects of the gameplay (since after you've seen the acts a couple of times, the leveling process really is nothing more than grinding, and boring grinding at that). Those timesinks might very well be intentionally designed elements of a game (very appearent in mmos, I'm looking at you wow) but I challenge you to come up with an example where timesinks have improved a game's overall experience. I'm not talking about removing challenge as some might interpret this, definitely not. I'm simply talking about those gameplay aspects that are there to make the game last longer without really providing anything to the player.
This is where there's a conflict of interest between the game developers and (at least some of) the gamers. Especially if the game developer stands to gain (financially) when players play the game for longer, this problem becamos glaring. How much can you make the players waste their time on grinding (/ item runs / leveling after been through the content a few times before / etc.) and stretching the existing content without makeing them lose interest?
That might have been a little beside the point or the very core of this debate depending on the perspective. Of course I didn't take the long term (in-game) economic implications but it's a little hard to consider those at this point anyway.
Clearly you haven't played lately. I'm guessing you haven't experienced 1.10 at all either...
Actually, I've been active since release, and still am, so I think I have a pretty decent idea on how the community's doing. Don't know where you're playing, but there's a max of 2 full Can channels on West during peak hours, and 5 players in 1 channel during off hours. During the few years after release, full Can West channels numbered in the double digits, so unless everyone's moved to another country, the player base HAS decreased by a large fraction (weren't there hundreds of thousands of players before, while we only have a few tens of thousands now?). Anyways, no to rushing!
Angel_of_Wrath
04-07-2008, 21:47
I am yes and no for rushing. I knew a guy with two computers and access to eight keys for D2 LoD. So he would create 4 instances of D2 on each computer, fill a game and rush himself 7 lvl 1 characters for forge/socket/imbue/whatever. That is super cheez. Personally, I would never do that.. it just, I dunno, cheapens the experience for me. I would like to see the rushing of lvl 1's through the game while they sit it town gone. (Yes, I know technically you have to be in Trav to get q credit, etc)
That said, several months into the game, the initial difficulties (Normal and to an extent, Nightmare) can be quite tedious as a twinked out chars. Point in case: assembling Khalim's Will. If you find 8p games, you can level really fast.. but the real fun comes in starting Hell. So, I would still like to see some method of 'power-leveling' or ability to get through the content fairly quickly for those that wish to do so. I play Hardcore as well, so sometimes you want to get back up to near the point at which you died in order to be better than last time.
Some other games, like Titan Quest had limited replayability IMO cause I had to go through the same world doing the exact same thing every time. Hellgate had too many Fedex quests, so I have 100 quests as filler that I have to do with every single char if I want the periodic stat points. (I'm also anal about doing all the quests, O/C if you will...). There was something about D2 and the ability to gain levels really fast, seeing some progress or results before the curve really steepens.
So, while I would like to see blanket 'rushing' of lvl 1's to Hell Cows while they sit in town gone, I think the longevity of the game is partly in due to the 'rushing' of early content to get closer to the end game for pvp or mf or lvl 99 or whatever the goal of that character is.
(Edit: Just to clarify, the 'guy i know' is not me =P, srsly)
Rashiminos
05-07-2008, 00:01
Actually, I've been active since release, and still am, so I think I have a pretty decent idea on how the community's doing. Don't know where you're playing, but there's a max of 2 full Can channels on West during peak hours, and 5 players in 1 channel during off hours. During the few years after release, full Can West channels numbered in the double digits, so unless everyone's moved to another country, the player base HAS decreased by a large fraction (weren't there hundreds of thousands of players before, while we only have a few tens of thousands now?). Anyways, no to rushing!
It was only a couple hundred thousand..., now it's about a quarter of that, around 50k...
Patch/ Recent Announcements may be throwing these numbers off, but that's not the point. Tens of thousands of players is a very large and active community for an eight-year old game. D2 is not dead, but it did lose a lot of riff-raff to eyecandy I would imagine. I'm not a big fan of the popularity/game quality correlation. The dead part of the community is the part that left. Let's let them rest in peace (unless they can swear off those things like hacks, dupes, selling items for real currency, respecs, etc).
stillman
05-07-2008, 01:06
Here are some reasons why I hate rushing:
-Basically, everything 5sigen said.
-When brats look at my high lev zon, they accuse me of getting rushed and baaled by others. Really, I played the game through all difficulties and did solo chaos runs myself. I want there to be PROOF of my gaming abilities, and rushing makes all of us high levelers look kind if the same. We ALL look like we've been rushed and baal botted.
-Similarily, when I see another high lev chr, I can't tell what kind of player he is. Did he do all the work himself, or did he get his friend to rush him? In d3 I want there to be no rushing so that when I see a high lev barb, I will know that barb represents a great player who is better than I am.
-Rushing was not intended to be part of the game by Blizzard. It is an exploit. I think players who try hard to bend the rules made by Blizzard are not true fans.
-I don't want to play in a gameworld full of lazy people who refuse to play the basic components of a RPG, which is leveling.
-The begging for rushes has reached astronomical proportions. The spamming is too much. I don't want to be in a gameworld full of beggers.
-Here is an example of how your chr getting rushed affects me: I want to be on the ladder. You get rushed, and have other people level you as you leech experience in their baal runs. You surpass me on the ladder even though I am killing more monsters than you are, my build is better, my build tackles all the problems the game throws at me, etc. Therefore, the ladder is becoming a list of players who don't represent the best at all. By pushing me down the ladder, you have clearly AFFECTED me.
Except by the time there is someone to do rushes, the ladder is already set in stone with a ton of level 99's. And..there is no reward beyond it lookin pretty.
Except by the time there is someone to do rushes, the ladder is already set in stone with a ton of level 99's. And..there is no reward beyond it lookin pretty.
Not true at all.
Except by the time there is someone to do rushes, the ladder is already set in stone with a ton of level 99's. And..there is no reward beyond it lookin pretty.
Quite true! What is more a detriment are item shops selling Hoz, Enigma, Hoto, Shako, etc.. so while everyone else struggles and dies, these kids just run their bots 24/7. The ladder is really just kind of a joke. What it does have is items and runewords that NL doesn't. Beyond that there is nothing about ladder that is "competitive".
Quite true! What is more a detriment are item shops selling Hoz, Enigma, Hoto, Shako, etc.. so while everyone else struggles and dies, these kids just run their bots 24/7. The ladder is really just kind of a joke. What it does have is items and runewords that NL doesn't. Beyond that there is nothing about ladder that is "competitive".
Just because there's something more detrimental to the ladder than simple rushing doesn't mean that rushing isn't detrimental to the ladder and economy.
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