View Full Version : Theory on evidence: The story of D3 explained
Ill consider some new ideas and argue certain storylines based on factual presented data in texts or pictures. Read carefully and judge for yourself
What happened at the world stone:
First of all you need to know what actually happend when the world stone was destroyed on a factual basis from the books:
1# Sanctuary is visible to demons and angels making it a possible (and probable) battlefield for heaven and hell
2# Humans will (probably slowly since its been already a few years since the world stone was destroyed) regain their hybrid angel/demonic powers
Conclusion: Way more powerfull creatures are set loose on sanctuary resulting in a complete chaos :P
PS you can find all this info from the book
"In the Diablo: Sin War trilogy written by Richard A. Knaak, it is revealed that Inarius along with other rogue angels and demons are responsible for the creation of Sanctuary and the Nephalem (Angel and demon hybrids with great power). Inarius wished a Sanctuary away from the constant battles between demons and angels as well as create his own High Heavens which would be greater than the original. However the development of the Nephalem's powers infuriated Inarius making him want to start anew by eradicating all the Nephalem. This brought him into conflict with Mephisto's daughter, his romantic partner Lilith. Due to the conflict between the two Inarius banished Lilith. This is because Lilith desired to be a tyrant with an unbeatable army under her control while Inarius wanted lowly worshipers. But before Lilith's banishment, Lilith had killed all other angels and demons on Sanctuary preventing Inarius from destroying the only sentient being left on Sanctuary, the Nephalem because Inarius did not wish isolation. And so Inarius used the worldstone to prevent the Nephalem from developing their powers, reducing each succeeding generation's powers until they became the mere normal humans of Sanctuary. Inarius also used the world stone to mask the existence of Sanctuary from his own Angelic kind in the High Heavens. He then later created the religion Cathedral of Light to make the beings of Sanctuary worship and serve him."
So now we start theorizing with reason as to what happened to Tyrael there:
What happened to Tyrael:
The world stone was corrupted so Tyrael had to choose the lesser of 2 evils, either the world would become corrupted or it would remain the way it was but become visible to both hell and heaven. Obviously the second choice was the best (else there wouldn’t even be a D3 :P ) The big question remains is Tyrael corrupted by his deed of "evil" it’s hard to say because the world stone was already corrupted so technically he destroyed evil but then again what would the blast do and was he even allowed by heaven to intervere?
If you look at the D3 picture however you see a interesting thing, the bottom of the head is Diablo.. but the upper part seems holy? It might be that tyrael was corrupted as he seems (also from the opening page of d3 website) to be a main npc in D3. this last part is just a guess not a real good theory, lets continue:
The interesting fact of humans becoming demon/angels hybrids might even suggest a choice.. like dark or good.. this would then mean additional skills in that regard.. and.. yes PVP
Also as Vivendi announced that all blizzard franchises will eventually become MMO's its also a setting of the sides: Demons vs Angels (like horde and alliance) This thought isnt to attrative to me at this point but its quite conceivable
It is very likely tyrael was corrupted in some way.. maybe not completly but atleast a bit, you see millions of shards comming from the destroyed world stone.. its quite likely he got hit by some corrupted shard pieces...
Why tyrael probably got corrupted:
#1 What would be a better boss then Diablo possesing Tyraels body? Would also explain the weird look of Diablo in the cinematic trailer
#2 Tyrael destroyed the world stone which was corrupted at that time, thousands of shards flying everydirection.. would be hard not to get hit..
#3 in the Diablo 3 cinematic you actually see Tyrael throwing his sword in the world stone.. why would they show that? If they already showed it in D2? because in D3 you see how it ends now.. Tyrael gets struck by a shard
4# Noticed the weird D3 logo? its not entirely evil! The top seems holy... the bottom hellish which also hints towards a corrupted tyrael fighting the darkness within. This also makes sence if you think about the Demon/Angel human nature awakening.. some have argued that its just heaven and hell, but it seems like its the crown of diablo almost like he is dibalo but still with a part of tyrael in him
5# Everyone agrees you can’t have a Diablo game without a Diablo.. how can that be? His soulstone was destroyed... well who ever said their soulstones cant just be reforged... specially by.... an angel? who better to be able to forge a new soulstone then Tyrael! A angel! corrupted by a corrupted world stone.. that power should do I guess :P
6# Tyrael fighting the corruption within would explain why none have heard from Tyrael in 20 years! He fought the darkness inside! That tough guy! He sure as hell didnt die in the blast (since you see screenies of him check the link below)
7# What is the meteor? Tyrael! He has been battling the corruption from the corrupted world stone for 20 years in Heaven.. but finally succumbed.. therefor he is casted down by his bretheren: Voila corrupted Tyrael falling from the sky
Check the pictures from the great tyrael corrupted or not post.. confirms this story:
http://www.diablofans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9443
8# Okay look really closly in the picture where you see the Tyrael movie sequence.. do you see hes in a cathedral? also hes in a cathedral on the main D3 page like Gnub said.. now this doesnt prove that its Tyrael who is the meteor.. but its more and more likely that he is since the meteor clearly crashes in the cathedral as seen on pictures. Also you see a black and white drawing of tyrael, with a figure in front of him.. Deckard Cain! Who was in the cathedral as the meteor struck.. Another hint is given by the fact that his wings are.. redish... like evil! in any other pictures/movies of tyrael previously his wings were PURE white
Now it says this on the front page of D3 website:
"The comet carries a dark omen in its fiery being and it calls the heroes of Sanctuary to defend the mortal world against the rising powers of the Burning Hells – and even the failing luminaries of the High Heavens itself."
So IF Tyrael is the meteor which seems likely given these factcs then its also likely that he is corrupted in some way as the text says "The comet carries a dark omen in iets fiery being"
Now this sentence is pretty important: "and even the failing luminaries of the High Heavens itself." So read carefully: The comet is a omen TO : The failing luminaries of the high heavens itself.. how can it be an omen for that if its not a corrupted fallen angel? or somethign of the sort!
(A demon landing woudnt have to be a omen for that for example, but a fallen angel would)
9# noticed the picture where Tyrael (or another angel) is laying in the air with angelic signs on the floor.. Perhaps Tyrael being kept improsoned in heaven? seems like hes in some sort of strugle.. with angelic icons on the floor.. and again with the first glimps of redish glow on his wings
"10# Once we vanquish Diablo Tyrael is freed from the corruption.. awwww such a happy ending!:P "
I’ve compiled my theories from different topics im curious how you feel about all this information together
Cheerz ;)
Ill try to keep this post updated so check it if your intrested!
Who says Blizzard must go by what the books say?
"When asked if the book would have ramifications in Diablo III, Knaak responded that, "The ramifications here will be used for any future project... "
Do the research yourself if you dont believe me :)
Also.. mostly in the past blizzard stayed true to the books of a certain franschise (as they work tightly together) Again dont trust me on this if u dont want to... research for youself.. or even better, go read the books :)
IM just trying to convey what I know for anyone willing to know theorys ive come up with from deducting the apparant data at hand.. its only a theory based on the current info I grand you.. but still your only reply is this? after all my arguments.. if you disagree come up with better arguments and lets discuss it :) thats what the forum is for right? :D
2# Humans will (probably slowly since its been already a few years since the world stone was destroyed) regain their hybrid angel/demonic powers
And so Inarius used the worldstone to prevent the Nephalem from developing their powers, reducing each succeeding generation's powers until they became the mere normal humans of Sanctuary. Inarius also used the world stone to mask the existence of Sanctuary from his own Angelic kind in the High Heavens.
Now here we have an assumption based on nothing. Humans aren't nephalem. It's like we '(d)evolved' into humans from the point we were nephalem. You don't expect your Raichu to turn into a Pikachu after a couple of years do you? :D In my opinion, you're totally missing the boat. If this would be the real story then I am seriously dissapointed.
Also, your proof of Tyrael being corrupted is meager. Perhaps the dark omen is the fact that Heaven decides to destroy earth for all that matters. Perhaps Tyrael arrives in a comet to save the world, but mankind didn't know they were in danger so in that perspective it's a dark omen.
My point, this is by no means evidence, but pure speculation. The forum title is misleading.
raveharu
03-07-2008, 04:21
Now here we have an assumption based on nothing. Humans aren't nephalem. It's like we '(d)evolved' into humans from the point we were nephalem. You don't expect your Raichu to turn into a Pikachu after a couple of years do you? :D In my opinion, you're totally missing the boat. If this would be the real story then I am seriously dissapointed.
Also, your proof of Tyrael being corrupted is meager. Perhaps the dark omen is the fact that Heaven decides to destroy earth for all that matters. Perhaps Tyrael arrives in a comet to save the world, but mankind didn't know they were in danger so in that perspective it's a dark omen.
My point, this is by no means evidence, but pure speculation. The forum title is misleading.
Your theory about pokemon is not even valid and does not give a clear stand to your argument. I didn't even bother to read the rest, not from someone who used pokemon as an example.
Yeah - Tyrael getting hit by a splinter of the world stone sounds reasonable.
It fits in with a pet theory of mine, that the splinters from the world stone are actually an anology to the splinters from the mirror in "The Snow Queen" by H.C. Andersen.
http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=648691&page=2
Now here we have an assumption based on nothing. Humans aren't nephalem. It's like we '(d)evolved' into humans from the point we were nephalem. You don't expect your Raichu to turn into a Pikachu after a couple of years do you? :D In my opinion, you're totally missing the boat. If this would be the real story then I am seriously dissapointed.
Also, your proof of Tyrael being corrupted is meager. Perhaps the dark omen is the fact that Heaven decides to destroy earth for all that matters. Perhaps Tyrael arrives in a comet to save the world, but mankind didn't know they were in danger so in that perspective it's a dark omen.
My point, this is by no means evidence, but pure speculation. The forum title is misleading.
The World stone was ment to contain the power of the nephalem, it would be quite logical that if it was destroyed their power would slowly return.. it also offers great stuff to work with as you can give character angelic/demonic skills
About the evidence is misleading? I used books and pictures and stuff from the D3 website to base my theory on.. you have to read carefully before you judge.. the titel says A theory based on evidence! it doesnt say its evidence of my theory.. there actually is a big difference!
I know I cant proof this 100% im just trying to deduct as much information on the data at hand and create a theory based upon that evidence
Who says Blizzard must go by what the books say?
The Sin War trilogy was written in collaboration with Blizzard resident Lore Master Chris Metzen, and are accepted as Canon lore for the Diablo universe.
Interesting stuff Alzitar. I am not ready to believe Tyrael is corrupted yet. I think the story requires some connection to heaven, and that blizzard would keep Tyrael in that post rather than bring in a new angel.
One thing that is a little troubling to me though, accepting what you say about the books is true, is that angels and demons can be slain, permanently. My understanding was that if you kill an angel or devil they just loose thier motral form, and thier spirit lives on and coalesces into another material manifestation in thier respective home realm. Was there some special weapon Lilith used to slay the angels in sactuary? If demons can be slayed so easily then why were the soulstones neccessary? Also if sanctuary was hidded they how does Tryael and all of Hell know about it? Lilith told them? Why wouldn't Tyrael 'spill the beans' to all of heaven?
ThulRasha
03-07-2008, 16:55
Doesn't really matter Alkey. Even if the angels that were killed by Lilith were not killed permanently, but instead be banished to the heavens again, they would still not be on Sanctuary anymore. That was Liliths goal, make sure that Inarius is alone on Sanctuary (with the humans).
Alkey you make some really good points, I dont know exactly why Hell and heaven (Tyrael) could see sanctuary before but I have some ideas.. and maybe someone who has read all the books can tell us.. But I do know in the war between ehaven and hell the soulstones were forged to capture the three prime evils and diablo was captured by the horadrim and his stone was hidden in tristram under the cathedral.. maybe so not angels nor demons could reach it.. in sanctuary (because of the world stone) UNfortunatly for them (fortunatly for us) Diablo got his pwoer back and corrupted the son of the king of tritram.. so he was already in sanctuary and therefor could "tell" hell were sanctuary was.. also this might have exposed sanctuary at that time to heaven because a great corruption was there (simmiliar as Azeroth was visible to the burning legion because of magic taking place on azeroth)
Now Id like to explain where my initial thoughts about Tyrael being corrupted came from
its a movie http://diablo.incgamers.com/articles/668952/lore-amp-environmental-art-panel-video where Leonard Boyarski one of the lore designers (head i believe) is talking about Tyrael when he talks about the main storyline for D3
Ill quote him here:
At 11:50 Leonard says: "Tyrael is an angel who has been helping mankind trough the previous games against the wishes of heaven"
"At the end of diablo 2 he was forced to destroy the world stone and (important) this was the last time anyone saw him, what has he been doing all this time, no one has talked to him no one has heard from him"
He contiues: "has he been punished, He stood RIGHT in front of this very powerfull artefact when it exploded. Sure hes an angel butt would that change him in any way what happend to him as a result of this.. so no one knows it has been twenty years and no one has heard any thing from him, why hasnt hell invaded is a very important question, everyone expected hell to invade as soon as the world stone was destroyed
but no one has heard anything from hell"
"these are questions we are going to be looking into further "
This to me.. really suggests that something happend to him at the world stone.. and the punished part also hints to this.. Also he emphazises on the fact we havent heard from him in 20 years and this is a mayor question to everybody.. then he says we will be looking at these questions
To repeat a theory I posted in another thread. I think that the meteor is Tyrael being cast down from heaven. Not because he is corrupted or evil or possesed, but because he was tried and found guilty of playing into the plans of hell by acting against the wishes of heaven. He may of had no choice in destroying the worldstone, but he had a choice when it came to giving the horadrim the soulstones, and teaching them how to use them against the Prime Es. This is Tyrael's "crime" in the eyes of heaven.
As far as being effected by the exploding worldstone..that is an interesting thought. Perhaps he was weakened, perhaps made stronger. This could indicate his corruption, but it's a weak theory I believe.
Hmhm I think there is a flaw in this m8 sorry.. Why wasnt he tried 20 years ago? are those angels that beaurocratic? :P
That doesnt make sence in some way.. also what Leonard says: Is he CHANGED in any way.. really hints toward that end.. altough I do like the idea of a council judging him but it doesnt seems to add up
Refine your theory and well talk :)
I think it could definetly take 20 years. These are immortal beings we are talking about, being very proud of the order and structure that they strive to uphold. Imagne a tribunal of angelic judges. They would hear testimony of every event, ever version available, from the banishment of the prime evils to the making of the soulstones and Izual and the Horadrim to the destruction of the worldstone. They would take recesses between each testimony to discuss it with thier private council, and with each other. Plus time could pass differently in heaven, what is 20 years on earth could be a day in heaven, or 200 years.
And if the designer says he has been changed by the destruction of the worldstone I believe it. But unless he says so I don't believe it is necessarily a flip into evilness. Maybe the ability to make another worldstone? The goal of the game could be finding the necessary reagents to form another stone. I am not saying it isn't a possibility, but without more convincing evidence, I don't believe Tyrael will be a villian in D3. I don't think it is Blizzard's style.
Alright Alkey listen, I study Philosophy its a study of reason, I want to introduce you to a certain aspect of that field: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_Razor Please read it youll find it very intresting I think
If you apply this general law of reason then: Tyrael gets hit by a corrupted shard = he becomes corrupted/tainted its the easyest available explaination at hand, that doesnt make it the right conclusion I grand you BUT it does make it the most plausible.. this is what ive tried to do with all my points, take the next logical thing and I tried to explain why I took that step, now when you say "maybe the ability to make a new worldstone" That would be a very weird step its possible sure.. but less likely none the less :)
Unfortunatly I cant edit my posts? Weird as I am logged in but the button is not there anymore.. anyway I wanted to add this:
Why did Tyrael land in Tristram? If he is the meteor.. btw if he isnt why would any meteor land exactly in the cathedral where deckard Cain is?
Its been metioned a few times that Tyrael is a mighty powerfull angel.. this would result in him not entirely succumbing to the corruption/taint probably he was expelled by heavens before he was completly taken over.. now.. why Tristram:
Obviously Deckard Cain is in Tristram the picture on the D3 site of the meteor flying over a town shows Tristram look at the D3 page and then world.. also if you follow the trejectory of the meteor it will crash in the big building on that picture (the cathedral)
The D3 website will show you even tell you Tristram was rebuild all this is seen on the D3 site and told about also that Deckard Cain resided there.. now again why would Tyrael go just there? Deckard Cain! He is the last of the Horadrim or atleast he has been studying there teachings which also is told so Tyrael might see Deckard Cain as his only way to salvation since he has studyed intensivly on the subject, even if Tyrael doesnt see that a mere mortal can help him in any way atleast would he warn Deckard Cain (most logical of all persons living in Sanctuary) that he was tainted and that Sanctuary should prepare themselves since he was loosing to the corruption inside
I am familar with Occam's Razor. I don't see how absorbing some power from the worldstone when it was destroyed requires more assumptions than absorbing some corruption. Plus Occam's Razor is not very reliable at producing the correct answers as you mention in your post.
All we are doing here is speculating, what the staff at Blizzard decides is what it will be, regarless if it makes sense to us. I just enjoy following the different threads of possibilty.
I agree with you that Cain is the reason for Tristram being the target. Or at least part of the reason. Although another equally plausible guess is that Tyrael needs to rally a defense against hell, and where else would he start than with the last of the horadrim.
Tyrael being corrupted just doesn't feel right to me. Angels should be more resistant to the corrupting forces of Hell. It's not like Diablo can terrorize Tyrael's dreams like he did Leoric. They have to turn willingly. It plausible of course, but I expect Blizzard to come with up something different.
lionheart
03-07-2008, 23:15
I would be very disappointed if they went along the Tyrael is corrupted lines in the game. I think that you need a character that stands true to his form from beginning to end, lets not try to make this into a soap opera please. Plus to add from the facts that we know from the books. Heaven and Hell have known about Sanctuary since the time of the sin war, its not like they discovered now and they didnt know where Tyrael was going. From the book as well Tyrael is part of the Council Angiris, the main rulers of heaven, and he is considered as one of the strongest of them. He has a say in matters, its not like he is a lackey who they find doing something and they just ban.
Considering the pact that was made to not interfere with the humans from both parts, hell broke that pact so i dont think that Tyrael getting into it is breaking the rules, they have already been broken.
I dont know, i hope they just dont ruin too much the basis of it given to us from the sin war trilogy books. I find that they try to make things much more complicated in the game this way ruining the main idea that was given in the book. If they start screwing with Tyrael in this one and what he does for me the story is just going to become lame and more complicated than it needs to be.
Why tyrael probably got corrupted:
#1 What would be a better boss then Diablo possesing Tyraels body? Would also explain the weird look of Diablo in the cinematic trailer
#2 Tyrael destroyed the world stone which was corrupted at that time, thousands of shards flying everydirection.. would be hard not to get hit..
#3 in the Diablo 3 cinematic you actually see Tyrael throwing his sword in the world stone.. why would they show that? If they already showed it in D2? because in D3 you see how it ends now.. Tyrael gets struck by a shard
4# Noticed the weird D3 logo? its not entirely evil! The top seems holy... the bottom hellish which also hints towards a corrupted tyrael fighting the darkness within. This also makes sence if you think about the Demon/Angel human nature awakening.. some have argued that its just heaven and hell, but it seems like its the crown of diablo almost like he is dibalo but still with a part of tyrael in him
5# Everyone agrees you can’t have a Diablo game without a Diablo.. how can that be? His soulstone was destroyed... well who ever said their soulstones cant just be reforged... specially by.... an angel? who better to be able to forge a new soulstone then Tyrael! A angel! corrupted by a corrupted world stone.. that power should do I guess :P
6# Tyrael fighting the corruption within would explain why none have heard from Tyrael in 20 years! He fought the darkness inside! That tough guy! He sure as hell didnt die in the blast (since you see screenies of him check the link below)
7# What is the meteor? Tyrael! He has been battling the corruption from the corrupted world stone for 20 years in Heaven.. but finally succumbed.. therefor he is casted down by his bretheren: Voila corrupted Tyrael falling from the sky
Check the pictures from the great tyrael corrupted or not post.. confirms this story:
http://www.diablofans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9443
8# Okay look really closly in the picture where you see the Tyrael movie sequence.. do you see hes in a cathedral? also hes in a cathedral on the main D3 page like Gnub said.. now this doesnt prove that its Tyrael who is the meteor.. but its more and more likely that he is since the meteor clearly crashes in the cathedral as seen on pictures. Also you see a black and white drawing of tyrael, with a figure in front of him.. Deckard Cain! Who was in the cathedral as the meteor struck.. Another hint is given by the fact that his wings are.. redish... like evil! in any other pictures/movies of tyrael previously his wings were PURE white
Now it says this on the front page of D3 website:
"The comet carries a dark omen in its fiery being and it calls the heroes of Sanctuary to defend the mortal world against the rising powers of the Burning Hells – and even the failing luminaries of the High Heavens itself."
So IF Tyrael is the meteor which seems likely given these factcs then its also likely that he is corrupted in some way as the text says "The comet carries a dark omen in iets fiery being"
Now this sentence is pretty important: "and even the failing luminaries of the High Heavens itself." So read carefully: The comet is a omen TO : The failing luminaries of the high heavens itself.. how can it be an omen for that if its not a corrupted fallen angel? or somethign of the sort!
(A demon landing woudnt have to be a omen for that for example, but a fallen angel would)
9# noticed the picture where Tyrael (or another angel) is laying in the air with angelic signs on the floor.. Perhaps Tyrael being kept improsoned in heaven? seems like hes in some sort of strugle.. with angelic icons on the floor.. and again with the first glimps of redish glow on his wings
"10# Once we vanquish Diablo Tyrael is freed from the corruption.. awwww such a happy ending!:P "
1. What would be a cool boss would be a dumb way to determine the plot. And I don't see how he looks weird.
2. Do you think he would have destroyed it from a distance where he could be injured?
3. Because the destruction of the World Stone is the major event that leads to the current game. Hell and Heaven can now access Sanctuary easily.
4. Because the theme for the game might be Heaven vs. Hell or because you may have to fight both sides. Could mean anything.
5. If the World Stone is gone couldn't he just come back anyway?
6. Or maybe he's been busy fighting with the rest of Heaven against Hell. How come if they have access now they haven't invaded yet?
7. Or maybe he was just cast out of Heaven for helping humanity.
8. Different art. And yes Tyrael calls on us to defend Sanctuary against Heaven and Hell.
9. Not sure about this one. But red wings don't have to mean evil.
I don't really see how any of it supports your theory over any others.
Your theory about pokemon is not even valid and does not give a clear stand to your argument. I didn't even bother to read the rest, not from someone who used pokemon as an example.
I could have used apes and mankind, but that would turn this into something slightly too 'religious' for this board.
Also, how on earth would you expect these nephalem to regain their powers after just 20 years, when it clearly says they lost their power OVER GENERATIONS. In my opinion, this thread is still as weak as I pointed out in my first post.
I could have used apes and mankind, but that would turn this into something slightly too 'religious' for this board.
Also, how on earth would you expect these nephalem to regain their powers after just 20 years, when it clearly says they lost their power OVER GENERATIONS. In my opinion, this thread is still as weak as I pointed out in my first post.
Thats so silly, your taking 1 point of my post and then say the whole thread is weak.. your logic is flawed beyond comprehension
Also Im not saying they are Nephalem over night, im saying we might see some return of the powers in humans SOME and also some might evolve quicker yeah.. I just stated what the World stone was for.. so you can image what changed will eventually take place
1. What would be a cool boss would be a dumb way to determine the plot. And I don't see how he looks weird.
2. Do you think he would have destroyed it from a distance where he could be injured?
3. Because the destruction of the World Stone is the major event that leads to the current game. Hell and Heaven can now access Sanctuary easily.
4. Because the theme for the game might be Heaven vs. Hell or because you may have to fight both sides. Could mean anything.
5. If the World Stone is gone couldn't he just come back anyway?
6. Or maybe he's been busy fighting with the rest of Heaven against Hell. How come if they have access now they haven't invaded yet?
7. Or maybe he was just cast out of Heaven for helping humanity.
8. Different art. And yes Tyrael calls on us to defend Sanctuary against Heaven and Hell.
9. Not sure about this one. But red wings don't have to mean evil.
I don't really see how any of it supports your theory over any others.
1. Weird way of determing the plot? sure blizzard would like us to have the greatest badass boss there is so thats not weird.. and you dont think he looks weird? Go play D1 and 2 and then tell me thats the same Diablo
2. It has been mentioned a few times that we havent heard from Tyrael in 20 years! also Leonard (lead story designer) has said in his presentation.. sure, hes an angel but would this change him in any way? why would he say this if hes not hinting towards that end woudnt make sence
3. That could be yes, but doesnt seem enough reason to add it again as that is already shown in the movie of D3 ending.. also its seen in Deckards Cain lore stuff on the D3 Website so again that leaves the question why show it again? only possible explaination is that you see how the movie continues and what happends to Tyrael there..
4. ? I said that exactly in my post.. read better
5. To be honest there isnt any knowledge I know of that would suggest he could just come back to life... im not sure on this however
6. That is very plausible also but leaves the other points to wonder, I based this assumption on the knowledge of all the other points but this theory is worth exploring if you check my post on http://www.diablofans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10603 you can see me doing that couple of times and also ill try to work this out better, wanna be constructive? help me do it :) PS I had to place a link to diablofans because somehow i cant edit my post here? anoying
7. absolutly plausible also explored in my thread see link above
8. Also pausible, also explored at my thread see link, but that still leaves the other points thats why i think your reasoning is plausible but still less plausible also.. whats the weird red wings? we havent ever seen a angel be shown without pure white wings in the diablo serie
9. read point 8
All in all you make some valid points and some less valid, I really suggest you read my big post and include points 10 and 11 which have been added (coudnt do it here because of removed edit button even when logged in)
Point 10 is also on the previous page btw I added it jsut as another post check that ;)
LucianDK
04-07-2008, 17:52
Interesting stuff about the Nephalem. I actually saw them mentioned in Diablo2, when you ascend to the arreat summit and activate the altar of the heavens to summon the ancients.
I managed to dig up the text: "We are the spirits of the Nephalem, the Ancient Ones. We have been chosen to guard sacred Mt. Arreat, wherein the Worldstone rests. Few are worthy to stand in its presence; fewer still can comprehend its true purpose.
Might be worth looking into the history of the 3 ancients as depicted on the Arreat Summit website.
http://diablo.wikia.com/wiki/Nephalem
The site lists both Rathma and the Barbarian King Bul Kathos as known Nephalem.
I still don't see how Tyrael getting hit by a shard and becoming evil is more likely than a straight up battle between Heaven and Hell with Sanctuary in the middle. Really going to be disappointed with Blizzard if they do a stupid plot like that.
How would it be stupid? just because you like Tyrael being good? :| thats bit simplistic in my honest opinion..
Also there is going to be much more storyline ofcource.. and even the main issue ive tried to poitn can be false
Ive only made some fallid arguments as to why Tyrael would indeed be corrupted.. its up to you to show me why he shoudnt be now ;) then we got a great post hehe
did you read my big post? and actually watched the movie with Leonard?
Alfonso the Great
04-07-2008, 20:24
Ill consider some new ideas and argue certain storylines based on factual presented data in texts or pictures. Read carefully and judge for yourself, etc., etc.
Interesting read; you've done your homework, although your reasoning is potentially shaky--you've used quite a bit of induction (not that we have any other option at this stage, of course)--and it can lead to some trouble if later conclusions are inductively based on conclusions that themselves were arrived at through induction. Still, it's a fun little bundle of theories and were I a gambling sort I would wager at least one of your ideas is true.
Your idea of allowing "good" and "evil" class/skill/character development makes me hope some Blizzard guy has either already put this option into the game or read this thread and will make that addition immediately.
Haha thanks man I totally agree with you though, its a whole bunch of speculation basically.. but I tried to make up a theory that made sence of it all, im sure some will turn out to be false assumptions in the end..
My main goal is to share new data with the community and give people new ideas as to why certain stuff is presented this way
I agree the good evil would be fun..
LucianDK
05-07-2008, 01:30
A good friend wanted me to post his words on this interesting discussion. He wasn't able to register on the site as Registration seems to be broken because of the domain name change.
It should be considered while one is discussing the nature of humanity and its divine or demonic origins in the Diablo franchise where the concepts the creators use are derived from. The Diablo Nephalem are directly derived from content out of the Judaic apocryphal text The Book of Enoch, a zoroastrian piece that describes a number of myths about how man, divine, and profane interacted. In the Book of Enoch a Nephilim is the result of a human/angelic mating; exceptionally tall or giant like beings with glowing faces and a supposed hunger for among other things human flesh.
Later Catholic texts, Catholocism being derived from Judaism and the obvious template for the western branch of the Zakarum religion, answer the question of Nephilim by removing them from the new testament and describing angelic entities as lacking gender specification; an angel may look male or female but lacks genitalia. Demonic entities of course, given the myth of succubi and incubi, are not so altered.
With that in mind a number of factors must be considered outside Diablo proper. Firstly that in addition to 'Demons', which were Judaic and subsequently Gnostic entities of nature similar to Djinn, Hell contained fallen angels whom would still conform to the description and limitation of true angels. Secondly, the Nephilim were destroyed in the flood from which Noah crafted his Ark to escape destruction. And thirdly, as an append it should be reminded that angels were perfect creations of a supposedly perfect creator. Yet another unanswered question of religion is how then angels, who lacked free will unlike mankind, could have dissenting opinions and eventually lead a rebellion against heaven.
Taking all these elements into mind this is the Diablo Universe Cosmology:
In the beginning an unknown great power created the heavens, and the burning hells, and populated one or both. Presumably the burning hells were populated with lesser forms of distinctly evil but non senient or low intelligence life like the basic fallen. In the heavens there was perfection, and angels lived in unity with one another. At some point the demons of the burning hells accquired the collective intelligence, will, or force of arms to challenge the heavens more than likely when the quintessent but not omnipiscent divine essence was more interested in other factors (like creating the mortal realm). This theorum hinges on the renisance concept of the divine as a distant orchastrator akin to a watch maker and not a direct hand, but that has not to the best of my knowledge been expanded upon in Diablo.
At some point during the lengthy sin war mankind was created and the mortal realm became the battleground of a new cold war front between the forces of heaven and hell in which the KGB-like Prime Evils, three potent demons of exceptional subtlety in addition to great power, were far more successful in undermining mankind than the more traditional MI-5 like angelic forces. The Angel Inarius, exhausted with constant warfare (and implied defeat), attempts to create his own realm devoid of combat where he and an elected consort can rule unchallenged.
Their progeny, as these angels and demons are not limited in biology, give rise to the enhanced race of Nephalem. The tale procceeds essentially according to lore except for one key feature: The High Heavens and the Burning Hells are aware of Sanctuary's existence but unable for whatever reason to fundamentally interfere with it.
Therefore, when Lilith returns to the Hells she sells out Inarius' secret haven to her demonic masters, whom enact a multi-generation scheme to seize not the power of mankind but the unique power of divine hybrids that is usually denied them by their unclean status. A rebellion in Hell, long concieved, is allowed finally to fruition and the Prime Evils are dispatched to Sanctuary. Once there they cause terrible havoc until an outsider in the form of the Archangel Tyrael is specifically assigned to the "Sanctuary front". Tyrael decides to call on the Horadrim, a mystic order counter to the corrupt Vijzerai mages, and gives them a magical technology based on the same isolating magic that protects Sanctuary: soulstones.
Each soul stone is a smaller world stone capable of isolating a Prime Evil from the psychic emanations of its given type of sin onto which it feeds. What Tyrael does not know is that when the Prime Evils were planning their takeover they had stacked the deck. Because of Izual and his illfated assault on the Hellforge that ended with the Forces of Hell capturing him, and they tortured him into giving them the soulstone technology and other secrets about the world stone. This allowed them, once imprisoned, to project their essence into chosen human vessels and eventually possess them. Subsequently Diablo I, II, and Lord of Destruction, follow unchanged except for one regard.
When Tyrael destroys the world stone it is not a good, in destroying evil, or evil, in harming humanity, act. Rather, Tyrael seeing that the Sanctuary condtion had become untenable despite the rising might of humanity, destroyed the world stone in order to permit the High Heavens a more direct hand in giving humanity support in the now hot again war against evil. If we take Sanctuary and present it as an Ark that is protecting fragile humanity - in the form of enhanced Nephalem - then the flood in Diablo is a sea of demons and angels assaulting the last bastion of a dying people and Diablo III takes on an apocalyptic tone. The question becomes not, is Tyrael corrupted, but rather will the divine essence return in response to a rapidly growing out-of-control conflict?
Thirty-Thirty
05-07-2008, 18:39
Firstly, the post above is interesting, and pretty sensible in one of the sillier threads around on the forum at the moment. I can't really comment on it, because it depends on some facts revealed only in the books. The idea of the Worldstone hampering humans' powers gives Blizzard a nice opportunity for the increasing power of player characters.
The above post is, at least to me, a sensible and consistent suggestion of what might transpire, and above all, a scenario in which Tyrael is not corrupt. As for the original post (I've only seen it after coming back from four days away), I was going to follow suit and go point-by-point, but that's been done, and I'm presuming this "corrupted-by-shard" theory isn't being taken too seriously. Can we not agree that something like the logo doesn't qualify as evidence of anything?
As for Occam's Razor, wow, there are much simpler theories that'd remain consistent, have tremendous opportunity for storyline, and not require a corrupted Tyrael (or Cain, for that matter).
First of all WOW Lucian what a big post thank your friend for his contribution and ask him if you will, if I can add some of his text to my post (with giving him credit ofc, granted you give me his name)
The post clarfied some things for me but also raised few questions, has your friend read the sin war trilology?
Also another question that occurs to me, why could Tyrael intervere? if you say the world stone was destroyed so heaven could do a more direct aproach as to fighting on sanctuary
"and the Prime Evils are dispatched to Sanctuary" How could they go there if it was still hidden by the worldstone.. because of Lilith giving the location?
You say Inarius was captured in a offensive against hell..
This is A quote from one of the sin war trilogy books:
"Tyrael: ]I DID CALL THEM ABOMINATIONS ... BUT I WAS WRONG! MY VOTE IS FOR THEM ... FOR I WOULD SEE WHAT THEY MIGHT BECOME ... AND MARVEL IN IT.
Mephisto appeared before the Angiris Council and offered a pact. Tyrael requested Mephisto to leave his Mark upon the spot inside the Cathedral of Light where Inarius had originally created all of Sanctuary. By placing his mark to seal the pact with the Angiris Council, Lord Mephisto looted his prize given in exchange of placing his mark ... INARIUS. Inarius was taken by Lord Mephisto to the Burning Hells."
Seems more like a deal to me.. im not sure though as I havent read that book myself but got this quote from someone who has the books.
I like the questions you ask about religion, ive actually myself followed a course on Philosophy of religion by James Hall, however I really dont understand why you link that to the Diablo lore, sure they stole some ideas.. Blizzard always does, from different mythologies, in wow alot of lore is actually iranian for example
As far as I know there has not been any mention of a devine essence in Diablo games, and I dont see God comming to intervere.. actually Inarius is what comes close to a God for Sanctuary, as he is the creator :P
So what do you exactly mean by: "will the divine essence return in response to a rapidly growing out-of-control conflict?" ?
Firstly, the post above is interesting, and pretty sensible in one of the sillier threads around on the forum at the moment. I can't really comment on it, because it depends on some facts revealed only in the books. The idea of the Worldstone hampering humans' powers gives Blizzard a nice opportunity for the increasing power of player characters.
The above post is, at least to me, a sensible and consistent suggestion of what might transpire, and above all, a scenario in which Tyrael is not corrupt. As for the original post (I've only seen it after coming back from four days away), I was going to follow suit and go point-by-point, but that's been done, and I'm presuming this "corrupted-by-shard" theory isn't being taken too seriously. Can we not agree that something like the logo doesn't qualify as evidence of anything?
As for Occam's Razor, wow, there are much simpler theories that'd remain consistent, have tremendous opportunity for storyline, and not require a corrupted Tyrael (or Cain, for that matter).
Now Thirty Thirty you say the above post is a sensible and consistent suggestion of what might transpire.. there is no mention of what might transpire in that post.. have you even read it?
You say "and above all a, a scenario where Tyrael is not corrupted" Such a sentece tells me alot, it tells me your not intrested in finding out what will happen, or maybe you are, but only if tyrael isnt corrupted in any way.. which is silly. You offer no argumentation whatsoever as to why you dont think Tyrael is corrupted.
You continue with the "I'm presuming this "corrupted-by-shard" theory isn't being taken too seriously" Again you base that on? what? Because you say so? Your all knowing all wise n such? Such sentences just prove your lack of knowledge and refusal to go into a sensible debate
And then you say "Can we not agree that something like the logo doesn't qualify as evidence of anything?" I never said it was evidence, I just stated it because its a very intresting given in my honest opinion that the logo has 2 sides, nothing more.. i just add sugestions
Again this thread is called theory on evidence which means: Based on certain things (for example the diablo logo is a factual item) I try to base a theory around that, never did I state I was totally correct
Also the summing up of the points, sure but if youve read the thread youd know I have replyed to that
Also the first post is quite old already, as to some bug on this site I cant edit it and have the real post here:
http://www.diablofans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10603
Also if you declare (As an allknowing allpowerfull being im sure) that this thread is silly, without giving only one argument as to why.. your cant expect me to take you serious in any way
LucianDK
05-07-2008, 20:34
First of all WOW Lucian what a big post thank your friend for his contribution and ask him if you will, if I can add some of his text to my post (with giving him credit ofc, granted you give me his name)
His name is RuneKnight3, as long you credit him you are allowed to use it. But I will ask him to formulate a reply to your questions. And could you leave a link to said post you are mentioning?
Its in the post above this one :) see? ask him to reply there himself if he wants probably he can get a acc there
LucianDK
05-07-2008, 20:59
Did so!
But talking about the Worldstone, I came to remember something from Diablo1's Hellfire expansion.
http://noctalis.com/dis/diablo/h-cow.shtml
The Cornerstone of the World
“ “And in the Year of the Golden Light, it was so decreed that a great cathedral be raised. The cornerstone of this holy place was to be carved from the translucent stone Antyrael, named for the angel who shared his power with the Horadrim. In the Year of Drawing Shadows, the ground shook and the cathedral shattered and fell. As the building of catacombs and castles began and man stood against the ravages of the Sin War, the ruins were scavenged for their stones. And so it was that the Cornerstone vanished from the eyes of man. The Stone was of this world – and of all worlds – as the Light is both within all things and beyond all things. Light and unity are the products of this holy foundation, a unity of purpose and a unity of possession.”
So it leaves me wondering if this bit about the origin of the Cathedral was retconned out. To have been directed by Inarius seeking to create a 'holy' religion to worship his own bloated ego, instead of being raised by the Horadrim monks to honor the archangel Tyrael. But it shows that the Cathedral lies upon a serious nexus of power that attracts both Hell and Heaven.
Thirty-Thirty
05-07-2008, 23:31
Okay, firstly, let me step back and apologize. I recognize that I have mixed up a few things in this thread, having re-read it. I wasn't paying attention to the names, and see now all the contention is from Telzen.
Now Thirty Thirty you say the above post is a sensible and consistent suggestion of what might transpire.. there is no mention of what might transpire in that post.. have you even read it?
Fair enough. I thought it was implied that Tyrael would lead playing more of a role in the business of men, but having re-read it, that's not true.
You say "and above all a, a scenario where Tyrael is not corrupted" Such a sentece tells me alot, it tells me your not intrested in finding out what will happen, or maybe you are, but only if tyrael isnt corrupted in any way.. which is silly. You offer no argumentation whatsoever as to why you dont think Tyrael is corrupted.Not at all. I think the speculation at the moment is dominated by corrupt-Tyrael scenarios, when I think pure-Tyrael scenarios are as likely. I don't really favour either, but I appreciate that the cited example shows how the pure-Tyrael case is feasible.You continue with the "I'm presuming this "corrupted-by-shard" theory isn't being taken too seriously" Again you base that on? what? Because you say so? Your all knowing all wise n such? Such sentences just prove your lack of knowledge and refusal to go into a sensible debateBasically, I read Telzen more than once thinking it was different people, so that line does come out more high-and-mighty than appropriate. But I stand by his retort, and my own belief that it's a bit far to claim shards of a corrupted Worldstone corrupted an energy-based being with only his face unprotected, when I don't think the corruption is necessary in the first place.Again this thread is called theory on evidence which means: Based on certain things (for example the diablo logo is a factual item) I try to base a theory around that, never did I state I was totally correct
I'm generally contending the question of whether or not Tyrael has been corrupted for the sake of it: corrupt or pure, it'll still fit. The tone of your original post makes it sounds like we should accept it as truth. Some examples:
Check the pictures from the great tyrael corrupted or not post.. confirms this story"Confirms" the story? Maybe you just chose the wrong word, but we "confirm" little or nothing with our speculation. (I'm presume - if that's a safe word - that "great" refers to the size of thread.)
So IF Tyrael is the meteor which seems likely given these factcs then its also likely that he is corrupted in some way as the text says "The comet carries a dark omen in iets fiery being"A "dark omen" implies corruption? Why not just a warning?
The failing luminaries of the high heavens itself.. how can it be an omen for that if its not a corrupted fallen angel? or somethign of the sort!Not a corrupted angel? Try:
a regular angel revealing how the higher orders have been corrupted,
any angel warning that Heaven will disregard Sanctuary in a coming war,
an angel exiled for going against his masters, or
an angel bringing warning of a new renegade who'll purge any human not devoted to the Light.
Just a few possibilities. Blizzard's line is just so vague. "Failing" isn't necessarily corruption. Your superior can fail by ignoring a problem, choosing an inappropriate way of dealing with it, or conspiring to assist the enemy.
First of all let me say compliments to you thirty thirty for apologizing and talking in a normal fashion about the stuff I said, I truly appreciate that and shows your lots more then i expected you to be :) (thats a honest compliment btw)
As for your critics I totally agree, Im not saying one way or another really.. I mean I am, but its not like I think this is fact.. for me based on all the things presented this was the most logical theory for me, so i tried to follow this theory and aply everything to it and see if it COULD fit.. and in my eyes it does, that doesnt make it the right theory absolutly, but a theory nonetheless :) at the time I didnt felt like it was my duty to explore all possible ideas (that would take ages anyway) or to show the most plausible ones atleast.. neither did I do that, I took the one that was most plausible to me and basically that was derived from Leonard (Story designer d3) saying litteraly "He stood right in front of this very powerful artefact when it exploded. Sure he’s an Angel but would that change him in any way what happened to him as a result of this. So no one knows. It has been twenty years and no one has heard anything from him. " That sentence for me is a VERY strong suggestion something happend to him.. and wasnt good why else would he say that, a question sometimes can tell more then any answer, and in my eyes this is such a question. After hearing that I thought of a theory of Tyrael being corrupted or tainted in some way and then I looked at the stuff that was at hand.. and I coudnt see any reason as to why he coudnt be corrupted.. and actually saw few things why he would be
Now im very very welcome to other ideas and id love to add more thoerys to my post (as I kindoff started doing at the other site) but they have to be just as plausible
Cheers and again thanks for being reasonable :)
LucianDK
06-07-2008, 09:41
More words from RuneKnight3:
I have not, specifically, read the sin war trillogy although I desperately want to. I have read The Shadow Road and the Warlord of Blood and have been a Diablo adherent since the beginning so I am not entirely unqualified in making calculated guesses. That being said, to answer one of your points, Gnosticism describes an entity called The Demiurge; an imperfect creator whose benevolence or lack thereof is directly proportional to its imperfection. In essence to explain the imperfections and unfair cruelty of existence, Gnostics ascribe creation to a lesser creator. In situations where this Demiurge is an evil representative, it is usually arranged against a still more remote supreme entity representing good. Therefore if Inarius is the demiurge of Sanctuary hand in hand with Lillith, that which created the angelic hosts would be the supreme intellect or divine essence strongly implied but never stated in Diablo's primary texts.
eichelberg
11-07-2008, 13:42
Now here we have an assumption based on nothing. Humans aren't nephalem. It's like we '(d)evolved' into humans from the point we were nephalem. You don't expect your Raichu to turn into a Pikachu after a couple of years do you? :D In my opinion, you're totally missing the boat. If this would be the real story then I am seriously dissapointed.
Also, your proof of Tyrael being corrupted is meager. Perhaps the dark omen is the fact that Heaven decides to destroy earth for all that matters. Perhaps Tyrael arrives in a comet to save the world, but mankind didn't know they were in danger so in that perspective it's a dark omen.
My point, this is by no means evidence, but pure speculation. The forum title is misleading.
Actually in Diablo II LOD The Three Ancients/Barbs at the worldstone keep state that they are nephalem.
Also When Anya gives you said mission she states that she believes that humans used to be more than what they had become.
eichelberg
11-07-2008, 13:47
I like some of the theories here.
I didn't think of the angel being the comet. Perhaps Tyrial is cast from the Heavens for not knowing of the Nephalem and helping them avoid extinction by slaying Baal. And the other Angel in the concept art is Inarius explaining to Tyrial the plight that has been brought upon Sanctuary due to the destruction of the worldstone.
mince pies
17-07-2008, 03:04
Am I right in thinking that the soulstones also restricted some of the demon's powers, because in the Act V cinematic Baal seems to draw power from his soulstone to explode that old man that was attempting to stand up to him. I think I've also read it somewhere, not sure though.
Saint Anger
20-07-2008, 14:29
Am I right in thinking that the soulstones also restricted some of the demon's powers, because in the Act V cinematic Baal seems to draw power from his soulstone to explode that old man that was attempting to stand up to him. I think I've also read it somewhere, not sure though.
As I understand it, the Soulstones came to serve as a source of power for the Prime Evils, a "magnifying glass" of sorts after they had come to corrupt them.
From Tyrael's dialogue after defeating Izual:
[...] Izual helped Diablo and his Brothers trick me into using the Soulstones against them... Now the Stones' powers are corrupted.
With the combined powers of the Soulstones under their control, the Prime Evils will be able to turn the mortal world into a permanent outpost of Hell!
Sharp observations. If this isnt the way its planned out they should reconsider. Awesome theory!
tyrael being corrupted and being the meteor is an interesting concept. The meteor does something to reawaken evil in the tristram cathedral, that much seems clear. And corrupted shards of the worldstone could do that; just diablo's soulstone alone was enough to create all the evils in D1, beneath that very cathedral.
The whole concept of humans gaining more powers after the worldstone's destruction seems a silly one, though. (which doesn't mean it's not in the game.) How much more power do humans need? After all, a single human was able to defeat thousands of demons and all 3 prime evils, their powers augmented by their soulstones and their host bodies, in D2X. Now obviously that had to be done for the game to have a plot, but by that reckoning, any level 60 char in D2X is already stronger than Tyrael, who couldn't even beat Baal alone, when he was still weakened and partially imprisoned in Tal Rasha's tomb.
the humans are far weaker in the diablo fiction and novels, compared to the demons and angels (since godlike powers make for less interesting reading but more fun playing), so it's tricky to extrapolate between the fiction and the games.
also, some portions of the d3 cinematic are flashbacks. in the still shots we've seen thus far we see tyrael destroying the worldstone, and what looks to be a view of Baal's armies outside a barbarian fortress, before they are destroyed by the exploding mt. arreat. Presumably the cinematic will open up with that partial retelling of the plot of d2, and then jump to current events, showing the meteor crashing down into the tristram cathedral. leah and cain seeing it hit, looking down through the hole into the catacombs, etc.
The only other cinematic still shots we've seen then, are the ones of tyrael (or some angel) apparently being pwned in some sort of overdecorated building. Or, those shots could be of Tyrael going to some sort of omega power mode to escape a situation in heaven, and becoming the meteor that crashes down into Tristram. Tyrael was on trial, he was going to be banished or punished, so he blasted off to escape and somehow homed in on Cain, the human he's had the most contact with? But inadvertently the shards of worldstone still in his body cause evil to awaken beneath Tristram?
http://diablo.incgamers.com/gallery/data/565/ss35-hires.jpg (http://diablo.incgamers.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=701&size=big&cat=565)
Thirty-Thirty
24-07-2008, 15:27
But inadvertently the shards of worldstone still in his body cause evil to awaken beneath Tristram?That'd make some sense.
I also agree that the order of events might not follow the cinematic, and that might be confusing everything. Especially the content of the meteor. I think it's an angel because of the official site's frontpage, but that might be an angel who's come to clean up whatever struck the cathedral. We don't know whether the frontpage is moments or months after the cinematic.
mouseman
27-07-2008, 12:20
They said the lore and story wouldn't impede with the action. They specifically said they aren't going to force anyone to read anything outside the game. The more hardcore gamers will be given subtly hints if they know much about the lore, but it won't form the core of the story in any way that's not easily accessible to anyone playing the game, no matter if he/she hasn't ever heard of Diablo games/books.
So I wouldn't read too much into the books since it's just a really different format of storytelling than games.
However, nicely written theory! I think there's some truth in it, especially the Tyrael part. But I don't think they base it so much on the books that we'll be able to guess the storyline if we've read the books.
The same goes to every theory with Azmodan/Belial being the end bosses, claims that Diablo 3 will have to be a prequel because Diablo is destroyed and any theory that relies too much about the books/general lore which isn't accessible to the majority of the people that are going to play the game. There are certainly going to be elements of the lore implemented in the game, but it doesn't actually tie the game, because they can always make up new lore to suit their purposes (which is how the existing lore is created in the first place).
Awesome thread!
A little totally un-proven possibilities from my side, it might or might not open ideas for others:
1. Is there a possibility that there already was evil again underneath the cathedral before the meteor (presumably Tyrael) crashes into the ground? On the DIII site, where the story-teller speaks of Tristram, he says he talked to someone who went there and met great evil. Was that person there in the time between the destruction of the worldstone and 20 years later? If so, the evil is indeed back before the meteor arrives.
2. If 1. is possible, is there a possibility that the meteor is indeed Tyrael but that he is actually not free after the crash? Perhaps heavens locked him in some way (perhaps the meteor is a soulstone with Tyrael inside but that's guessing way too much) and then casted him from heavens to Sanctuary where his interfering started. If so, the first task to the player in-game might actually be to free Tyrael. All the pretty pictures of Tyrael kinda surrecting in a cathedral might actually be later in the game, when Tyrael is freed by the player hero. Sounds like a very reasonable way to start the story: free Tyrael, who is then again at the good side.
Again, nothing of this is backed up by proof, I'm just trying to add possibilities.
Another thing about the 'corrupted by shardstones' idea:
Would the hero from D2 and people like Cain not have known that? Surely if Tyrael walked away wounded they would have noticed something?
Are there real clues that Tyrael got corrupted by shards anyway?
Thirty-Thirty
27-07-2008, 23:33
Surely if Tyrael walked away wounded they would have noticed something?"Walked away"? I never really understood how he got around, but I just doubt anyone else had a chance to see him. Who knows what happened after the Worldstone shattered.
As for the books, I think we can still use them to feed our speculation. I'm sure that all the relevant details will be part of the game's plot, but then we'd have to wait until the game is released. :p
The corruption of a Guardian is a main and common theme in Blizzard works as proof with the Dark Wanderer, Arthas, Kerrigan, etc. It won't be unexpected that Tyrael is corrupted or changed somehow.
The corruption of a Guardian is a main and common theme in Blizzard works as proof with the Dark Wanderer, Arthas, Kerrigan, etc. It won't be unexpected that Tyrael is corrupted or changed somehow.
no, and because so many people could easily figure out, if tyrael had gone mad (corrupted), i really hope, they don't let him go that way.. it would just be to boring, and to cheap.
Thirty-Thirty
29-07-2008, 14:20
The corruption of a Guardian is a main and common theme in Blizzard works as proof with the Dark Wanderer, Arthas, Kerrigan, etc. It won't be unexpected that Tyrael is corrupted or changed somehow.
True, but I think that's a spin-off of Blizzard's often cynical depiction of humans as flawed or easily corruptible. I can't immediately think of any deities from the various Blizzard Universes who undergo any sort of corruption. (I'll probably think about this all day...) I agree it's common for them to blur the lines between good and evil, and I foresee a storyline that involves us fighting angels. It might be led by that guy from the books who thinks humanity is a foul miscreation, or someone else, but I just don't think it requires an evil or corrupt Tyrael.
Even so, Blizzard's stories have their share of characters more truly aligned to good or evil. I think we remember the "darkened" characters because they're in some way "cooler", but against characters like Sylvanas, Arthas, Kerrigan, Kael'Thas, etc. we still have Zeratul, Thrall, Fenix, Tassadar, Jaina, etc. There's a broad spectrum in the Blizzard stories - IMHO it's part of what makes them so rich - but I still imagine Tyrael being very much at the "good" end of said spectrum.
Thirty-Thirty
29-07-2008, 14:22
Actually, looking at that list of good guys again, they don't seem as survivable as the baddies. Maybe Tyrael will die?
Illithbah
01-08-2008, 15:44
I have seen so many theories, so many ideas, but i have never seen the idea that crossed my mind today.
I am sure that you all remember the cinematic in D2 where Tyrael is fighting the Dark Wonderer and Tal'Rasha ( they are no yet transformed into diablo and baal).
Now here is the interesting part (for me atleast).
The tomb is closing after Marius runs out with the soulstone.OK!
But what happens inside?
How does the fight continue?How does Tyrael escape and servive? We see him in the last bastion before the burning gates of hell.What is an archangel
doing there?
I believe that Tyrael is DEAD! and the image we all see in the D3 official site is not Tyrael but the Lord of Lies (can't remember tha name)
The destruciotn of the worldstone is proving it.
Do you rememebr what Cain said?
He sais that it is strange that he didn't came on, in any of the books of the old Horadrim, about the worldstone and that it can be corrupted or that it needs to be destroyed. Only Tyrael is saing that it MUST be destryoed. This is a bit strange so finaly after so many words, my theory is this:
Tyrael is DEAD.SOMEONE is transformed in his look to desieve the mortals and push them to do HIS bidding.
I believe that in D3 we will be wtinessing a grand betrayel or somesort of a BIG plot.
But what it is going on in true, only time will tell.
Illithbah,
nice theory, the Tyrael we see now not being the real Tyrael.
But as far as I now, he is helped to escape that tomb by the player who kills Duriel who was keeping guard. Remember him saying "I thank you mortal, for my freedom. But I did espect you earlier."
Greetz,
Wirt
Illithbah
01-08-2008, 22:53
Wirt,
You are pit point correct.
But again it is a bit strange why they keep him alive.
I believe this time the story will be a lot more complicated and twisted till the end.
Now lets hope for early reliese or at least more info about the game.
I agree it is strange Baal and Diablo did not just kill Tyrael after they defeated him. Was that ever explained somewhere?
I suppose the primevals had plans for him that required him to be alive at the time :)
Then another thing I just saw in the artwork, where we see a picture where Mount Arreat once was, totally exploded etc.
http://www.blizzard.com/diablo3/_images/artwork/ss36-hires.jpg
What exactly is the bright light between all the smoke? That light does not seem to come from an exploding mountain or a fire. It seems like there is one very bright object in the sky. Is it just the sun or perhaps another meteor???
Wirt
Probably the sun, classic military tactic is to attack from the east/west so the sun is in the defender's eyes.
Although I agree it's probably just the sun, in this case the attacker did not choose his direction to attack from. He comes from or out of Mount Arreat directly towards the city.
Blood_And_Iron
03-08-2008, 23:29
tyrael being corrupted and being the meteor is an interesting concept. The meteor does something to reawaken evil in the tristram cathedral, that much seems clear. And corrupted shards of the worldstone could do that; just diablo's soulstone alone was enough to create all the evils in D1, beneath that very cathedral.
The whole concept of humans gaining more powers after the worldstone's destruction seems a silly one, though. (which doesn't mean it's not in the game.) How much more power do humans need? After all, a single human was able to defeat thousands of demons and all 3 prime evils, their powers augmented by their soulstones and their host bodies, in D2X. Now obviously that had to be done for the game to have a plot, but by that reckoning, any level 60 char in D2X is already stronger than Tyrael, who couldn't even beat Baal alone, when he was still weakened and partially imprisoned in Tal Rasha's tomb.
the humans are far weaker in the diablo fiction and novels, compared to the demons and angels (since godlike powers make for less interesting reading but more fun playing), so it's tricky to extrapolate between the fiction and the games.
As a side note, Baal alone? Tyrael was defeated by Baal and Diablo. Time to rewatch the cinematic :)
Blood_And_Iron
03-08-2008, 23:35
Awesome thread!
A little totally un-proven possibilities from my side, it might or might not open ideas for others:
1. Is there a possibility that there already was evil again underneath the cathedral before the meteor (presumably Tyrael) crashes into the ground? On the DIII site, where the story-teller speaks of Tristram, he says he talked to someone who went there and met great evil. Was that person there in the time between the destruction of the worldstone and 20 years later? If so, the evil is indeed back before the meteor arrives.
2. If 1. is possible, is there a possibility that the meteor is indeed Tyrael but that he is actually not free after the crash? Perhaps heavens locked him in some way (perhaps the meteor is a soulstone with Tyrael inside but that's guessing way too much) and then casted him from heavens to Sanctuary where his interfering started. If so, the first task to the player in-game might actually be to free Tyrael. All the pretty pictures of Tyrael kinda surrecting in a cathedral might actually be later in the game, when Tyrael is freed by the player hero. Sounds like a very reasonable way to start the story: free Tyrael, who is then again at the good side.
Again, nothing of this is backed up by proof, I'm just trying to add possibilities.
By "story-teller speaks of Tristram," if you mean Caine's Diary, that's a set piece to explain to newcomers D1 and D2 history. Those events are all past and known. Please don't think they tell you anything outside game lore.
Blood_And_Iron
03-08-2008, 23:37
"Walked away"? I never really understood how he got around, but I just doubt anyone else had a chance to see him. Who knows what happened after the Worldstone shattered.
As for the books, I think we can still use them to feed our speculation. I'm sure that all the relevant details will be part of the game's plot, but then we'd have to wait until the game is released. :p
I doubt he walks, ok? I just read the wiki on Harry Potter, so how about "apparates?"
Blood_And_Iron
03-08-2008, 23:43
True, but I think that's a spin-off of Blizzard's often cynical depiction of humans as flawed or easily corruptible. I can't immediately think of any deities from the various Blizzard Universes who undergo any sort of corruption. (I'll probably think about this all day...) I agree it's common for them to blur the lines between good and evil, and I foresee a storyline that involves us fighting angels. It might be led by that guy from the books who thinks humanity is a foul miscreation, or someone else, but I just don't think it requires an evil or corrupt Tyrael.
Even so, Blizzard's stories have their share of characters more truly aligned to good or evil. I think we remember the "darkened" characters because they're in some way "cooler", but against characters like Sylvanas, Arthas, Kerrigan, Kael'Thas, etc. we still have Zeratul, Thrall, Fenix, Tassadar, Jaina, etc. There's a broad spectrum in the Blizzard stories - IMHO it's part of what makes them so rich - but I still imagine Tyrael being very much at the "good" end of said spectrum.
Please, let's stay away from other Blizzard universes. I still have my doubts about the blending of artistic style, not to mention plots and themes.
The Diablo series is the only Blizzard universe that has clear religious overtones, as in Heaven vs. Hell, White vs. Black. Please, I prefer to keep the discussion away from Orcs and the Burning Legion or the Zel'Naga. I'd really like to think that Blizzard is capable of maintaining the artistic integrity of their work, though at times I have my doubts.
Blood_And_Iron
04-08-2008, 00:16
Well, thanks for the well thought out post by RuneKnight3. Here's to some solid information about the potential literary reference. Also appreciate your evaluation of the available information, so nice to read someone who shares my mind set.
I want to ask, among other things, why people are bent on this corrupted Tyrael theme? Personally, I feel it makes much more sense for Blizzard to do a solid job with the story line without it. A corrupted Tyrael, though possible, does not feel right. There are plenty of theories that offer more in terms of drama.
So here's one theory, among other things I read recently that I consider patently ridiculous.
1. Heaven is coming, just as Hell. Heaven is not on your side, so be prepared. As for the 20 year gap, any number of theories may explain that. I'll pick an easy one: they were preparing to go to war with each other on Sanctuary. I like this one for the chaos factor. I've been killing demons for years now I'd like to kill some angels.
2. Why do people say Mount Arreat "exploded?" I think one of the screenshots depicts Mount Arreat as is, with the Rite of Passage terrace right at the top. There seems to be a lot of different interpretations and naturally, mine is the right one.
3. The meteor depicted in the cinematic is obviously the one that landed outside the major city, the meteor that's apparently the size of a small city and has legions of demons coming out of it. Some people seem to confuse that with the hole made in the Cathedral. Let's not confuse "The Meteor" with some version of corrupted Tyrael. By the way, the major city has not been nominated. I'm assuming it's Caldeum, for lack of an alternative.
4. How do you know Diablo's dead? I don't. There's no information on how prime evils can be truly killed in game lore. I'd say they cannot be killed at all. One possibility is that his essence reverted back to the soulstone when I stuck that last Teeth in him. After all, the stone did glow in his death animation. When the stones are destroyed, their essences are loosed in Hell. It may take time for them to materialize, but materialize they will. Who knows, it may even take as long as 20 years.
5. What's with this "Tyrael got struck by a piece of the Worldstone" stuff? That sounds quite desperate to me for a plausible explanation. You don't think an archangel is smart or capable enough to avoid that?
6. What's with this "demons have no bodies they must possess others" stuff? It stands to reason, in my mind alone, without any facts to support it, that the Prime Evils will return to their original form when they can. In the Act 3 cinematic, to paraphrase, "Now, my youngest brother, it is time to take your TRUE form. You're the harbinger of our return, Diablo, send forth your terror into Hell!" personally, I think Mephisto's TRUE form is a bit gimp. His first brother can drive wedges, curse blood mana, mirror image and teleport; his second brother is a flame throwing tank. He can only try to poison you and slap you :( And what's with that incorporeal lower end? Get a real body! It may be he hasn't had the time to complete his transformation. I hope so, his head looks like it's in bandages.
I'm off to get the books, so I have more food for thought :) Check back in a bit.
Thirty-Thirty
04-08-2008, 10:16
Blood_And_Iron, I largely agree with you. I hope you noticed both of my posts that you've quoted above were responses to other posts. My main contention with Tyrael's departure is that just as he can arrive unnoticed, so I presume he left after the Worldstone was destroyed. And yes, the Diablo universe is notably different from the other worlds.
That angel on the images in the cathedral is not Tyrael.
Yes they have the same wings, yet, not the same proportions, armor and color. You could say its a twisted and corrupted version, but it could as well be another angel, like the angel of death coming to piss on humanity. Or even better, to warn you of an demon army with Tyrael in the top ranks standing, umm about now, say 10 mins away.
Its a good thought thou, that Tyreal turns to darkness.
Tyrael was the link between you and the heavens. If hes gone, then it will be up to you, to beat the army of hell back to oblivion. And the best thing is that you have zero allies and one new enemy. Twisting the plot this way, makes you inferior and small.
This would be good if the game was to be creepy, scary and they wanted to give you the feel of being alone and so on. Yet, I assume that the actionfactor in D3 will be far stronger than the fearfactor, like it was in D2.
So if the story would be massive action and the story would follow up on the action, then I would rather guess on a story where hell and heavens clash with massive armies, and put you in the middle of it.
The battlefields would be a mess with the more powerful creations on both sided casting spells of apocalyptic proportions at eachother.
"And the heavens shall tremble". Main quote on www.diablo3.com!
To make the heavens tremble, you must think battle in unimaginable proportions. Put this in D3, and you will have a bloodfest, not a game thats like:" Im alone, and scared going trough this dark tunnel, and maybe theres a demon in here" kinda game.
The designers of D3 said they wanted to make the characters feel very powerful, beeing inspired by games such as Hero(yes?), and that fits very well with a D3 focused on massive action.
The problem with the Tyrael theory is that it does not fit an action oriented D3, as he would do as an ally. Because this, would disturb the balance of power between the heavens and hell, where you would be on the inferior side. That would trigger the focus on "scared of demon" thing mention earlier.
I say this because when you have a David vs Goliath match you have a superior opponent that is massive, but only in size or numbers. They wont fight as fierce because they know they are superior to you. Thats also why you win, because you know its a hard fight and will put up that extra effort to win.
With two equal armies, there would be more cunning tactics, more brutality and a bigger clash of powers, and thus more action. And thats why I think that Tyrael will fight as your pet in D3!
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