Witchdoctor, not so bad

[Goddess Belldandy]

I implore everyone to go to: http://www.blizzard.com/diablo3/characters/witchdoctor.xml

Watch all 5 of his skills from the example videos given.

Really those are some pretty cool skills. Soul Harvest is just freakin awesome.

Mass Confusion seems really useful. The witchdoctor really looks like he would be a fun class to play, and I wouldn't mind having him in my group. I'm sure there's plenty of other new, unique spells yet to be revealed about this guy.

Just give him a chance. I was unimpressed at first from just the videos i saw at wwi 2008. But i read his class page thoroughly and looked all 5 of his skills there and am not so narrow minded anymore. I think he can turn out to be a great class, and still be unique enough to leave plenty room for a necro later on.

http://www.blizzard.com/diablo3/characters/witchdoctor.xml

[raveharu]

Yup, WD is an upgraded version of the old and overated necromancer.

Time to accept new changes, if you want necro so badly, go back to Diablo 2.

[Glurin]

I was unimpressed with the WD when I first saw him. Read the full description and watched the gameplay videos and I'm still unimpressed. I'm sorry, but he's just a huge turn off for me.

Necro wins hands down. Swarm of bugs? Pfft. The necromancer is a master of poisons. One point in Can-o-Raid will take care of that. Wall of corpses? I see a wall of exploding corpses. Exploding chihuahuas? Meet Mr. Golem.

Besides, who wants to be a dancing naked man speaking gibberish?

[BattleWhack]

The skills look neat, they really do. I just can't identify with a freakin' jungle boy dressed like an idiot.

The Necro was cool because he was cool. Badass and shady.

[PoXeR]

I have been a long time player of the Necromancer and he was my favorite class. I actually really like the Witch Doctor who has a lot of the play style that I like. I think it will be a different and fun take on that style. They might bring the Necromancer back and they might not. If not then thats cool and if they do thats cool also. I'm totally going to give the WD a try. I can't wait to send rabid dogs after people and have them explode.

[Ampersand]

"Besides, who wants to be a dancing naked man speaking gibberish?"

Me!

The Necromancer, while cool, has been done a million times in other games...

I prefer the jungle dude for this game...little things like his restless animation while standing still. Like he's been possessed by dark spirits or something :devil: + voodoo is cool.

[Mad Mantis]

Time to accept new changes, if you want necro so badly, go back to Diablo 2.

Why do some people keep bringing this up as an argument? Do you really think that just because it is change that it HAS to be good?

[korialstraz]

I was unimpressed with the WD when I first saw him. Read the full description and watched the gameplay videos and I'm still unimpressed. I'm sorry, but he's just a huge turn off for me.

Necro wins hands down. Swarm of bugs? Pfft. The necromancer is a master of poisons. One point in Can-o-Raid will take care of that. Wall of corpses? I see a wall of exploding corpses. Exploding chihuahuas? Meet Mr. Golem.

Besides, who wants to be a dancing naked man speaking gibberish?

I don't see why so many people don't like the WD. He is like the pinacle of evolution withing the Diablo franchise right now!

Sure the barb is tall prud, magnificent loud mouthed, brute force, jumping and cleaving killing machine. But what else? It's just like the barb from D2 only with better graphical displays.

Now look at the WD. Sure he may be hunched and look strange, but which other class can summons pets, then use their own OFFENSIVE spells on them to ENHANCE their abilities in combat? And I'm sure this is just the beggining. IIRC the Mongrels can be enhanced with fire as well. Now imagine a Mongrel set on fire, running into a crowd of monsters, just to be exploded into a burst of magical energies and fire to everyone close to it? Now imagine 10 of those running into a pack of monsters! It's like recastable suicide bombers!

If that's what the barb so far has to compete with the future of that class looks grim. Especially when/if a pure caster class is implemented. Before bashing him because of the looks or him "replacing" the Necro, think about what he can offer. When is the last time you saw a Necro combine abilities like that into a deadly combo...?

Thought so...

/:rant:

Don't tell me skills like that isn't more exciting than the Necros? Don't take it wrong, I really like the Necro class, but imo it can't compete with something like that, and guess what, there may still be room for a Necro in the game.

[KiLLJOi]

I personally think it would be cool if the "fire bomb" skill he had was cast a little faster, but the zombie wall is awesome:thumbup:

Definately going to make one of these

[smartdot]

I just can't identify with a freakin' jungle boy dressed like an idiot.

yet you can identify with a guy who raise skeletons? I dont want to know what you do in your spare time...

anyway to the point im glad there are people who are open minded about the WD. People have to understand that with a new game comes change, and all though they are not very likely to put the necromancer in, the witchdoctor seems very similar. "a rose by any other name would smell as sweet" no? essentially, people are arguing over the name and flavor it seems. if it makes the negative people feel better just think of the witch doctor as a feral necro.

and on the casting speed of the firebomb, i have a feeling that most ranged spells will be this slow, that way spellcasters cant just dance around the combat anymore. also slow casting time would make a more reasonable Teleport.

[Glurin]

"a rose by any other name would smell as sweet" no?

No. If they called it the dungflower, there's probably a good reason.

[celbii]

No. If they called it the dungflower, there's probably a good reason.

Someone missed the point...

[MrProphet]

No. If they called it the dungflower, there's probably a good reason.

That's a good quote if i've ever heard one.

[Glurin]

Someone missed the point...

There is more to the necromancer than the ability to summon undead. Lets make another character that can also summon undead, but its a purple, poorly designed, cartoony dinosaur called a "barney". He just showed up out of nowhere and decided to fight the invading armies of hell so that he can continue to enslave children with crappy songs and a way too happy attitude. You should still love him because he's just like the WD, right?

Didn't think so.

If I've got a choice between playing a total badass v.s. a gibbering idiot, I want to play the badass. The WD makes a very poor substitute for the necromancer, assuming the necro is getting left out.

[kontankarite]

I think it's safe to say that the necro is going to be left out of the game.

Anyone even thinking that control of zombies isn't a necromancy thing in regards to what is known of the art itself is thinking obtusely.

A necromancer is not a master of skeletons, poison, and curses. Sure, he can be, but traditionally, a necromancer is a master of the undead before he's a specialist in making bones dance and demons feel decrepit.

[Jcakes]

Out of interest if the witch doctor looked like the current Necromancer would people want to play him. Currently most of the arguements seems to be centered around the looks.

[SweWings]

The biggest problem with the "look" is that if you replace the WD with a necro and the beasts with skellies well... How is it different from a Necro with some new fun skills?

Btw, I actually like the new look and I hope that there's many more character specific items considering the difference in design between the "final" gear of the two chars we've seen so far.

[Share]

I was a big necromancer fan in D2, but i'm not gonna ditch this class without giving it a chance. I think it looks fresh and cool, and people who whine about the necromancer really need to stop being so conservative, at least until they've tried out this class that seemingly is close to necro.

[Mad Mantis]

Out of interest if the witch doctor looked like the current Necromancer would people want to play him. Currently most of the arguements seems to be centered around the looks.

That is what a lot of the critique has been about. You can innovate an existing class, without doing away with the imagery. Keeping the Necro and his imagery and giving him completely new skills, like the WD has, would be something people who wanted to keep the Necro would have expected from D3.

[vendrox]

Why do some people keep bringing this up as an argument? Do you really think that just because it is change that it HAS to be good?

Solid points as always I see Mantis. Good to see you're still around ^^

On to topic then..

I really have nothing to say about this thus far, and when the time comes for d3 to go live it is very unlikely I'll pick a class that does not resemble to d2 Necromancer..

Because truth to be told, the d2 necromancer is pretty much the coolest character ever made for an RPG. 'Nuff said.

v out.

[smartdot]

There is more to the necromancer than the ability to summon undead. Lets make another character that can also summon undead, but its a purple, poorly designed, cartoony dinosaur called a "barney". He just showed up out of nowhere and decided to fight the invading armies of hell so that he can continue to enslave children with crappy songs and a way too happy attitude. You should still love him because he's just like the WD, right?

Didn't think so.

If I've got a choice between playing a total badass v.s. a gibbering idiot, I want to play the badass. The WD makes a very poor substitute for the necromancer, assuming the necro is getting left out.

i wouldnt be totally in love with it, but then again, i wouldnt bash it before even playing it, seeing more than five of its skills, or observe it being played for 5 minutes... And if all you care about is the fluff behind the characters there are much better games out there than diablo. Heck, go play an rpg (im talking about real rpgs, not computer games.)

[LucianDK]

Sure a Necromancer class is cool because it has that grim reaper feel and appealing to the emo and goth crowds. But it would be repeating what we already had in diablo2, and done ever after in so many other games.

Blizzard have always tried to innovate things instead of repeating the tried and true. Sure people would flock to d3 as soon it came, but without innovation it won't stand out as a true high quality game.

And out of the 7 classes in d2, the Barbarian rightfully deserved to return because of their race's direct involvement with the worldstone and how it has affected their people.

And given what you read on the blizzard site about a growing undead threat, which hints at that the Necromancers have possibly fallen to darkness at last for toying with the dark knowledge of Necromancy. http://www.blizzard.com/diablo3/world/bestiary/undead.xml

[Hideo]

WD is an epic fail. Tons of people go like: "WTF is that? Troll? LOL" Is this how a new hero should be received? Barb is universally praised. Nothing to talk about really. He is totally cool. Imagine how cool could new Necro be, if they managed to make Barb, so dull and onedimentional class, so awesome in D3.

When you look at D2 classes, they are all respectable. They look like young heros. WD looks like a monster from Act 3 of D2.

[korialstraz]

My bet is the Barb is back due to the fact that most melee chars are encouraged to be used as first char. Easy to play and get into the game. Point, click and kill. With other more "advanced" chars you have different skills and tactics involved. I'm not saying a Barb don't need tactics, just that it's usually and easy to play character at the beginning.

I still can't really fathom all the hate the WD recives. I can't see anything wrong with him, and the skills are the most coolest to have been shown so far. It's innovative and promising, and if that's the only char that will recieve such innovation from Blizzard (since I really didn't see anything special in the barb) I will be really dissappointed with Blizzard. Though I have no reason yet to be.

[Glurin]

And given what you read on the blizzard site about a growing undead threat, which hints at that the Necromancers have possibly fallen to darkness at last for toying with the dark knowledge of Necromancy. http://www.blizzard.com/diablo3/worl...ary/undead.xml

You know, now that I've read through that for about the third time, there's a couple sections in there that sounds like a great way they could change up the necromancer to differentiate him from the WD. At least as far as summons go anyway.

"Furthermore, I have come to believe that a skeleton's intelligence is limited by the power and scope of the spell used in the creature's creation. Theoretically one could have a single astute skeleton servant or a rather dense army of a hundred for the same expenditure of magical energy."

"If my aforementioned points do not convince the skeptic of the gravity of this issue, consider the case of the skeletal summoner. This advanced skeletal warrior is specifically created with a higher intelligence that gives it the ability to replenish the undead ranks as needed."

Anyway, its just idle speculation.

[DWS]

Just bring all the classes back that way nobody has a reason to complain....


:crazy:

[Weathersorc]

The class abilities look cool, but I would have preferred they give it a cool name, like "Warlock." "Witch Doctor" just doesn't cut it.

[Ethika]

Witch Doctor cuts it so good it hurts.

[Crudesash68]

Dark Shaman perhaps? He doesn't seem to heal, so just "Shaman" might not work, and perhaps they want to keep some separation from WoW.

[korialstraz]

Witch Doctor will do just fine...

[Psycroptic]

Sure a Necromancer class is cool because it has that grim reaper feel and appealing to the emo and goth crowds. But it would be repeating what we already had in diablo2, and done ever after in so many other games.

Blizzard have always tried to innovate things instead of repeating the tried and true. Sure people would flock to d3 as soon it came, but without innovation it won't stand out as a true high quality game.

And out of the 7 classes in d2, the Barbarian rightfully deserved to return because of their race's direct involvement with the worldstone and how it has affected their people.

And given what you read on the blizzard site about a growing undead threat, which hints at that the Necromancers have possibly fallen to darkness at last for toying with the dark knowledge of Necromancy. http://www.blizzard.com/diablo3/world/bestiary/undead.xml

The necro only appeals to emos and goths?

And i suppose the barb only appeals to bodybuilders. The pally only appeals to black guys. So on and so forth....

puhlease....

[Crazygeorge]

Here's a thought, used as a comic relief sort of character just might work. Slap some heavy Jamaican accent on and there's might be something hilarious in there.

[Jcakes]

I actually think bringing back the Barbarian was a mistake as now everyone wants their favourite character from D2 in D3. Personally I like change and would have liked to have seen completely different characters in D3.

I was initially I really didn't like the idea of a witch doctor, but having read more about him and watched him in action a couple of times I think I would enjoy playing him.

[AxlStrife]

IMO The Barbarian is back mainly because (s)he gives a "living link" to the previous game, the need for a rough-and-tumble brawler in an action-RPG can be filled by this generic being, and it can be argued that the barbarian tribes were the most impacted in the events of D2. IT does create tension between players that want their pet characters back, but the outcry over the Necromancer seems more along the lines of flavor. For those considering flavor:

Both classes hail from roughly the same region, so culture bleeding may have occurred, from a flavor standpoint.

From:http://www.blizzard.com/diablo3/characters/witchdoctor.xml
"Upon further discussions with my hosts, I discovered that these tribes define themselves by their belief in the Mbwiru Eikura, which roughly translates to "The Unformed Land" (this is an imprecise translation, as this concept is completely foreign to our culture and language). This belief holds that the true, sacred reality is veiled behind the physical one we normally experience. Their vitally important public ceremonies are centered upon sacrifices to the life force that flows from their gods, who inhabit the Unformed Land, into this lesser physical realm."
"Alongside the primacy of the belief in the life force and the Unformed Land, the second most sacred belief of the tribes is their philosophy of self-sacrifice and non-individuality, of suppressing one's self-interest for the good of the tribe."

This implies that the natural balance of life and death is maintained above all else, which also fits the necromancer: http://www.battle.net/diablo2exp/classes/necromancerhistory.shtml

"Pragmatists in the truest sense, they are above temptation. They see death merely as a natural part of life and do not seek to deny its arrival. Their singular knowledge of the unknown allows them to face death without fear. These ideals, coupled with an understanding of the natural balance between Order and Chaos, explain why they have not fallen prey to the influences of evil.

Their desire to uphold this balance has brought the Necromancers forth from the isolation of their remote, dank homeland to destroy Diablo and his brethren."

In essence, it is the same character, just dressed differently. If you don't like the flavor of the Witch Doctor that's a personal problem you'll have to get over it if you want the "Necromancer" style of play.

To anyone arguing that change is not always good: We wouldn't be arguing about a factor in Diablo 3 if there wasn't a flaw in that logic. I'm pretty sure that each patch of Diablo 2 has been an improvement on the game more than a calamity, so why should a flavor argument be an different? We don't know exactly what happened in those 20 years between D2 and D3, so to judge a class based on flavor alone is silly. For all we know a Necromancer may have taught/leaked the basic fundamentals of the necromantic arts to some tribes, and those tribesmen adapted it accordingly.

[Mad Mantis]

I'm pretty sure that each patch of Diablo 2 has been an improvement on the game more than a calamity

There have been quite a few patches that really hurt the Necromancer when it came to the game. Some technical issues might have been improved during those patches but the nerf stick was used on the Necro quite a bit.

[AxlStrife]

There have been quite a few patches that really hurt the Necromancer when it came to the game. Some technical issues might have been improved during those patches but the nerf stick was used on the Necro quite a bit.

Most of the 'nerfing' was to balance the game out, which means that the Necromancer was broken to begin with. CE is still arguably the best PvE skill ever even after being nerfed, and the Marrowalk bug was ridiculous to begin with. I do agree that the Necromancer got the short end of the stick when it cames to the patches, but the power he had beforehand compared to other classes (barring Paladin's Blessed Hammer) balances this out.

Any thoughts on my other comments in the context of the debate?

[Mad Mantis]

Any thoughts on my other comments in the context of the debate?

Not really. I agree with your assessment of why the Barb is back. Story wise the tribes are just too important to ignore.

People wanting to play a Necro-type character will have to get over their distaste for the WD. Since I still think they fill the same roll the Necro isn't likely to return.


Most of the 'nerfing' was to balance the game out, which means that the Necromancer was broken to begin with.

Being relegated to the roll of curse ***** for a significant amount of game time was more than was needed to balance the game out. I'm not talking about removing the Marrowwalk bug, or removing the scaling of CE with the number of people in the games, but the other patches.

I don't think you can use the patch example as a means of saying that the argument that change isn't always good is fundamentally flawed.

[AxlStrife]

Not really. I agree with your assessment of why the Barb is back. Story wise the tribes are just too important to ignore.

People wanting to play a Necro-type character will have to get over their distaste for the WD. Since I still think they fill the same roll the Necro isn't likely to return.
Cool.
Being relegated to the roll of curse ***** for a significant amount of game time was more than was needed to balance the game out. I'm not talking about removing the Marrowwalk bug, or removing the scaling of CE with the number of people in the games, but the other patches.

I don't think you can use the patch example as a means of saying that the argument that change isn't always good is fundamentally flawed.
True, my flaw was over generalization and the fact that my argument is blatantly wrong. For the game as a whole, the patches were a plus more than a minus in many instances. I would like to see a Necro-hopeful's reasoning, besides flavor, for the grief they are giving WDs.

[Mad Mantis]

I would like to see a Necro-hopeful's reasoning, besides flavor, for the grief they are giving WDs.

Mine is purely aesthetically based. I just think that he could be that bit better based on the concept art and some depictions of tribal/shaman/witch doctor depictions in popular culture. Both in terms of color use and animations.

[Fegon]

I for one don´t have a problem with the WD. I admit i never played Necros in D2 but i must have made hundreds of pallys. I dont think of the WD as a replacment for the Necro, just a new class, and personaly i hope that the barb is the only class left from D2. I want a new game, not Diablo 2.5.

[Queen Mebd]

CE is still arguably the best PvE skill ever even after being nerfed, and the Marrowalk bug was ridiculous to begin with.

I'll give it second best, right after shockwave, but CE is soooo much fun to spam at 125 fcr. :grin:

[a brick]

necros were definitely fun to play and obviously have a huge fan base, but the reason for the uproar is seeming to come from the return of the barb.

I think blizzard only brought the barb back both because of the connection to the tribes but also cus they have to build a game with balanced characters. The barbarian is the epitome of power and force, and thus filled the open space of pure melee'er for d3 perfectly. Barbarians just seemed to fill the role better than anything else they came up with so they brought it back.

one of the harder roles to fill which they will probaby have is a melee/caster hybrid character. Those spots were dominated by druids and paladins. I think one of them is returning... the other roles are easy to fill. like missile oriented character and pure caster.

[poltergeist]

I don't even understand all the WD hate, when I first watched the gameplay demo, I was WAAY more excited to see the WD than the barb. He is new, and his skills look awesome. Summoning, disease, and fire-AE, what exactly is the problem?

[Frostraven]

Like everyone knows, noone plays Necromancers anymore in Diablo II because they are bored by them by now.

And necromancer fans from Diablo II will not be disappointed by their favorite Diablo I and Diablo II character beeing replaced by a mountebank.

...
That was irony, by the way.

Let's take a look at the associations each name brings:
Necromancer.
-Gothic.
-Morally challenged.
-Dark
-Sinister
-Spiritual
-Waking the dead
-Armies of undead

Witchdoctor.
-Mountebank
-Herbalist
-Kills off chickens with rusty blades
-Zombies -- which in the case of witchdoctors are living people who are poisoned
-Isn't scary at all because he is a real world person who is a quack

Why does every single freaking game nowadays focus entirely on getting the hell away from their original games which tens of thousands of people still play daily?
Sometimes... update is all the crowd wants.
Imagine if they simply created an expansion pack to diablo II.
MILLIONS of copies would be sold in weeks -- and I'd gladly buy four.

But noooo -- every franchise that once was great is jumping onto the mainstream groove train of mediocrity and appeals to everyone EXCEPT the fans who made the sequels possible.

It's all about the money... but I would gladly pay 200$ for a spiritual and loyal follow-up to Diablo II.
Why does every single developer need to be a Wal-Mart -- cheap and available and appealing to everyone?

I wish I was 13 and hadn't played Diablo or Diablo II -- so that I too could like the pastelles and WoW feel of Diablo III and argue that the Witchdoctor.

I once to argued that games are art.
I don't anymore.
Nothing mainstream is ever really art.

[AxlStrife]

:funnyabove:

The extreme bias you possess, not to mention the misuse of the word irony when you're trying to portray sarcasm, already dismisses any arguments you put forth when it comes to the flavor of the two classes. The Witch Doctor actually fits the flavor of the region he and the Necromancer are from, but I guess you regularly see people in black spandex covered in bones in the middle of the jungle all the time.

If you want to talk about real-world comparisons, "Necromancers" are simply the Satanists and goth wannabes that hang out at graveyards, speaking gibberish to corpses.

Nothing mainstream is really art? Da Vinci's Last Supper must be horrible by that logic. I wish I was a yuppie so I could see your POV as something more than foolery.

And necromancer fans from Diablo II will not be disappointed by their favorite Diablo I and Diablo II character beeing replaced by a mountebank.
You do know that the Necro wasn't in D1 right?

[stoutewolf]

I think the Wd will do great in pvm with the skills we have seen so far but will suck in pvp cause of the time that it takes for a fireball to hit something and the other skills don't seem to be that good in pvp either

[DeadorK]

Don't get me wrong, the Necromancer was my favourite class in D2, as he was the most fun to play (confuse in the Arcane Sanctuary anyone?), but if you say the WD looks crazy, look at the Necromancer. He looks like he just got out of bed, forgot to take his pills and sold his comb for some chains. His only jewellery takes the form of two massive skulls sitting on his shoulders. Seriously.

[Ghoulz]

Don't get me wrong, the Necromancer was my favourite class in D2, as he was the most fun to play (confuse in the Arcane Sanctuary anyone?), but if you say the WD looks crazy, look at the Necromancer. He looks like he just got out of bed, forgot to take his pills and sold his comb for some chains. His only jewellery takes the form of two massive skulls sitting on his shoulders. Seriously.

What Necromancer you know practices necromancy on a sunlit patio in the middle of the day? Or robs graves in the middle of the day with people watching.

Unless his neighbors don't mind, I'd think he'd practice it in a more reclusive location where he won't likely be getting a good tan.

[Telzen]

WD is an epic fail. Tons of people go like: "WTF is that? Troll? LOL"

That really just makes me think less of them and not of the witch doctor. If people think troll when looking at him then I think they need to take a little break from WoW. He seems correct for a tribal/shaman type character.

[Synik]

You know, now that I've read through that for about the third time, there's a couple sections in there that sounds like a great way they could change up the necromancer to differentiate him from the WD. At least as far as summons go anyway.

"Furthermore, I have come to believe that a skeleton's intelligence is limited by the power and scope of the spell used in the creature's creation. Theoretically one could have a single astute skeleton servant or a rather dense army of a hundred for the same expenditure of magical energy."

"If my aforementioned points do not convince the skeptic of the gravity of this issue, consider the case of the skeletal summoner. This advanced skeletal warrior is specifically created with a higher intelligence that gives it the ability to replenish the undead ranks as needed."

Anyway, its just idle speculation.

I was actually thinking about this as well, and then began to wonder whether the WD would be replacing the necromancer or the druid....

[raishi]

i've said it before and i'll say it again the necro isn't returning because they are being blamed for everything...

[Telzen]

Which would make it cool to play one, going about his/her mission despite eveyone hating him/her.

[Cupcakesnbeer]

From what I have seen, the Witch Doctor looks wicked. A crazed, jungle-man/woman with some serious voodoo. Soul harvest looks great. Love the animation for Horrify. And how can you not like rabid or napalm, pooches that you can detonate:alright: (Mobile corpse explosion....cool)

Remember we haven't seen all of the skills yet folks, patience!