Hardcore Only Content? [Archive] - Diablo 3 & Diablo 2 Forums @ Diablo: IncGamers

Tai.

30-06-2008, 19:55

I was explaining Hardcore mode to my girlfriend (yes I know that's an obvious setup guys) and she was wondering why we would choose to risk our characters voluntarily. In the process of elaborating the basic reasons it got me thinking about D3 and the potential changes it could bring to Hardcore.

I was thinking about quests that are only unlocked above a certain level and only in Hardcore mode. This could easily be explained away through the NPC giving you the quest saying something like "I've heard of your great exploits and think you might be able to help me with this..." Ideally these quests would be incredibly difficult but with high returns, a true reward for reaching higher levels in Hardcore mode.

They could even implement a system where the drops from these quests could not be picked up or traded to a character below a certain level, so the drops wouldn't be abused.

It's not much obviously, it just got me thinking about the system and hoping for increased difficulty and content in Hardcore to make it truly a separate experience. Obviously it could start off with the same early game content so as to ease the transition to HC and ease coding constraints.

Thoughts?

prion

30-06-2008, 20:32

i play hardcore primarily because its impossible to get a good game going in softcore. Dying in SC is a lawl moment and no one puts the effort to play the game properly, they just screw around. Charge into a pack of dolls, tele into the fanatic urdars, and then the rest of us are responsible for clearing their body, and we get nothing in return.

When i first started HC i was a real chicken but now there is no difference in my playstyle, except that in SC i sit there and wait out lag spikes sometimes.

It's got nothing to do with my own risk of death. For me it's worth it because I know the other people in the game are playing the same game I am.

o i just realised i only responded to the first sentence of your post hehe

ZappaFan

30-06-2008, 21:10

etslayer

30-06-2008, 21:27

I think the glory of beating the game on HC is enough of a reward. I don't think you should get anything extra for it besides just that. And I don't want to be missing out on anything if i choose to play SC. People should play HC because they are up for a challenge, not for rewards.

That's my opinion comming from a former HC player.

ExtraStrongFireEnchanted

30-06-2008, 21:46

Let HC be for us madmen who do it for the kicks not phat loot. The fact that the majority doesn't grasp why the hell should anyone play HC is the best reward I could get.

"What extra content you get in HC?"
"None".

That is some serious conversation.

It feels that I've broken out of the box of mindless min-maxing grind which SC is.

Just a quick mentallity difference example. After playing HC, for some reason I tried SC. I was like WTF when I saw +16 health health small charms being left on the ground. Nah Sc is definetly not for me, there is no challenge in it whatsoever.

Hcorp

01-07-2008, 01:34

I'm kind of torn on the idea.

One of the pros is (obviously) I get more cool items. The cons are that it's the kind of thing that attracts people to play a certain mode just because of better rewards, and it's likely to make people complain. I like how it is now, and I like playing with people who chose the same route without loot rewards as an incentive.

Intolerance

01-07-2008, 02:24

If there is additional "HC only" content, it had better be epic and insanely Hard. Nothing that could ever be solo'd, ideally requiring teamwork of a full 8 player party.

I've never been a fan of high end items (boss farming is boring), so the drop could be something visual only, like a special animation/graphic for characters that have been part of the victory.

CarsV

01-07-2008, 02:53

If there is additional "HC only" content, it had better be epic and insanely Hard. Nothing that could ever be solo'd, ideally requiring teamwork of a full 8 player party.

Never going to happen because that would interfere with balancing.

MoUsE_WiZ

01-07-2008, 06:22

Let HC be for us madmen who do it for the kicks not phat loot. The fact that the majority doesn't grasp why the hell should anyone play HC is the best reward I could get.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Dahkar

01-07-2008, 07:58

YSM

01-07-2008, 08:10

Yeah it would definitely be cool to add some sort of incentive for people who play HC. You would hear a LOT of people complaining about any aspect of the game that can only be unlocked by playing HC tho. And I'm pretty sure there are a lot more people playing SC than HC, so I'm dubious about Blizzard doing something to only benefit the minority, snubbing the majority.

But I do like the idea of course! :)

You're absolutely right, but any fair person would agree that Diablo players who play in Hardcore mode deserve it.

The thing is the gaming community by and large has a real problem with people who work harder than themselves receiving any kind of advantage or reward over them.

sneakytails

03-07-2008, 05:50

I switched to hardcore a few months ago. Deleted my super fat stash file and its 3 other backups and all my SC characters including some very high level ones.

Now I run mostly spearazons who use no shield. My best item is duriels shell curiass and a damage reduction ammy I gambled.

Its a blast.

When the barb in the gameplay trailer hit the chest and sprung a trap that closed all of the exit doors off with iron gates I was like..wow its a good thing monsters are not running around in there with him...then the monsters appeared....it was shortly after that that I realized hardcore mode just got a ton more dangerous in D3. (if anything like this trap is implemented in the final version)

In a environment such as this I feel a little more compensation for HC players would be more than fair.

Implementing this without causing an uproar in the SC community, thats the problem.

Perhaps more XP or gold rather than uber items dropping.

5zigen

03-07-2008, 11:24

I don't think hardcore only content is a great idea. It would take away the purity of hardcore I think and the amount of griping from people who didnt play hardcore would be immense.

This comes with a caveat. In D2 the way that you could tell someone was hardcore was their bnet avatar and their title being different.

I think in D3 they could step that up a little bit, making hardcore characters actually look different would be cool. But I think more interesting would be to slightly modify the quest.

For example, say you got some trophy item for beating the game in normal / nightmare / hell difficulty. Instead of just a title say you get a crown/tiara also (perhaps an actual item, or simply it shows up on your avatar in the bnet lounge once you beat the game). Make it visually distinct from the item rewarded to normal characters. Perhaps give it a special glow depending on your class in HC.

It would be a completely symbolic change, but it would add that "oh woah there's a HC player" when people see it, and it would be a reminder of ones accomplishment if they see it.

Also, another thing would be achievements.

Perhaps more XP or gold rather than uber items dropping.

I dont really think more exp is a good idea because it would sort of defeat the purpose of playing HC if you leveled super fast. If you leveled faster the game would in general be much easier in a "normal" playthrough because your characters progression could oupace the enemy progression quickly.

moranor

03-07-2008, 13:47

This just sounds like:

Get sc people envious of hc content so they'll try hc, cry and give up, giving you an ego boost

You shouldn't play hc just so someone can tell you "man you're hardcore!" (which is what giving bonus content is). You should play it because you enjoy it more. Playing hc doesn't mean anything and it doesn't make you anything, we're all just people playing a video game for enjoyment.

It's the same as the Halo kids saying you have to play Halo on Legendary, which is retarded. Legendary isn't "hard", it's just tedious. Games are entertainment products, not e-peen contests

For the record I've played a lot of hc and sc. I prefer hc but I want to play with my friends and I'd rather do that in sc than not at all

Mythor

03-07-2008, 17:15

"Hardcore" is a challenge mode, not a "phat loot" mode. Small things like special titles for beating the game in Hardcore is fine. But if you make the shift to giving better gear, you're diminishing the challenge of Hardcore, thus defeating the purpose of the mode.
The only reason for giving better gear would be if the difficulty - other than "one life" - was commensurately increased. e.g. All monsters by default have 2x the health and do 2x the damage but you have a better chance of finding nice gear.
You know, like how Nightmare and Hell modes are set up. ;)

zGuJ

04-07-2008, 20:48

I think phat loots would be cool. Especially for duelers, maybe give us more incentive to pvm! I like this idea tai.

sneakytails

05-07-2008, 05:12

For example, say you got some trophy item for beating the game in normal / nightmare / hell difficulty. Instead of just a title say you get a crown/tiara also (perhaps an actual item, or simply it shows up on your avatar in the bnet lounge once you beat the game). Make it visually distinct from the item rewarded to normal characters. Perhaps give it a special glow depending on your class in HC.

It would be a completely symbolic change, but it would add that "oh woah there's a HC player" when people see it, and it would be a reminder of ones accomplishment if they see it.

Generally this idea makes sense (because subtle would be better) except for the single players that run hardcore characters. No one is gonna see this extra visual stuff.

Hence the the suggestion for something actually useful yet not overpowered such as gold or a slightly higher xp gain. (Im not talking players 8 with a xp shrine here)

MoUsE_WiZ

05-07-2008, 05:55

Generally this idea makes sense (because subtle would be better) except for the single players that run hardcore characters. No one is gonna see this extra visual stuff.

SP already has /players 8 for better drops and exp too, so what then? ~_~

Aside from that, no one is going to see anything you've done on SP, so why do you even need a reward at all? If you feel that you want faster exp or better items in SP you can always just go play with MPQs or memory or save files.

sneakytails

05-07-2008, 07:43

*I am going to sum up my thoughts on this subject as my previous posts made less sense than they could have*

It seems to me that our new diablo is going to become much more challenging, with more numerous monsters and even traps that are more dangerous. I am fine with that.

but to reflect that I feel hardcore mode could graduate into something more than a simple title/visual cue in the new more dangerous world of d3. And as a single player my needs are different than bnet players. I don't need my character to glow in a bnet lobby. But if someone would like that then great.

And if "rewards" were not part of diablo why would the socket quest and the imbue quest exist in d2. The fact of the matter is they are already a part of the game. These are very valuable quests for my SP spearazon builds. I look forward to them and they increase my builds viability at the same time. I like the idea of risking my life for a possible reward. What is wrong with a hardcore slant to this basic idea?

MoUsE_WiZ

05-07-2008, 09:08

What is wrong with a hardcore slant to this basic idea?

Providing more of anything that makes life easier defeats the very concept of making it harder.

Also, given that HC players play only with HC players there is no relative gain since everyone you're playing with gets the same bonus... all that is really accomplished is making the game end sooner. I'm aware that the concept of being relatively wealthy doesn't apply to your single player concern, but the part about ending the game that much sooner definitely does. Which pretty much just comes back to making the alleged hard mode less difficult.

Actually, now that I think about it, the relative gain thing does kind of apply to SP as well.
If you're being rewarded more frequently doesn't it dilute the excitement of the reward? If you got, say, an extra Anya quest in A2. Wouldn't the A5 Anya quest seem that much less important?

Also; you won't even know what softcore is like... if you jump straight into SPHC and skip SPSC (I presume this is the intent if you're posting here) you'd have no way of knowing you're being rewarded more frequently than someone else aside from what you'd been told.
Or even better, if instead of an extra quest it was drops, Blizzard could just say "drops are 5% better in HC than SC" and it'd take a rather long time before anyone could prove them wrong and yet I bet you'd chalk it up to HC play every single time something cool dropped.

How about instead of some sort of tangible bonus for playing HC, they make it more difficult, cut drops in half. That'd make it more fun imo ~_~

Mr_Bartuc

05-07-2008, 13:09

I agree with hardcore only quests. I never found HC thaaat enjoyable but new quests would give me one hell of a reason to continue. In fact, there's no way I wouldn't attempt them.

Tai.

05-07-2008, 23:56

I think this may have gotten a bit distant from my original question.

I was talking about something along the lines of a Hardcore only Uber Tristram. Something that would require a massive investment and risk in order to gain a high reward.

Ideally it would be incredibly hard. Something that if you went into it with a group and played near perfectly you MIGHT all come out alive from, but most of the time your attempts would be ineffectual. If people hadn't been able to experiment in Ubers forever in SC we might have taken a lot longer to figure out the correct tactics and approaches and may well have stayed a pipe dream quest that few could achieve.

It wouldn't be an increased drop rate or added experience for playing HC, that's an absolutely moronic idea and I don't quite know where it came from. Dumbing down HC or making it easier to achieve the items you need to excel defeats the purpose of HC. I do not however feel that creating an endgame quest with extremely high risk (maybe with specs altered every patch or so so it never becomes harvestable) that is only available in HC would ruin HC the same way. It would be a daunting task, likely to kill you or at least some in your group in exchange for an item or reward nobody outside your community could attain.

I must stress that this would not be an early or midgame quest. This is not something you do in NM A5 or even Hell A5, this would be something akin to the Arreat Summit quest requiring you to kill not only the Ancients, but dozens of Nihl Vipers, Conviction Gloams, Strong FE Dolls and Fanat Taurs who spawn on top of you and your party. A task basically designed to kill you with a SINGLE high end reward. You could even set it up so that once you had done it once you could never do it again on that character so we wouldn't have teams designed with the sole purpose of rerunning this area.

Obviously the idea isn't formed, I was just considering the possibility of a high end nigh suicidal task for HC players only and thought I'd ask if people thought it had merit. I understand the arguments about it offending SC players, but HC is supposed to be a challenge difficulty and you could easily explain that with the added risk comes added reward. I understand that HC players (myself included) are happy with the risk itself as a benefit and don't need the fat loot. This wouldn't be about fat loot however, it would be about pushing your character by putting them up against the deadliest task Blizzard could think of and seeing if you were up to it. The item reward could simply be a trophy like the SoH was supposed to be or it could be a godly high end item, ideally untradable/unmulable and single drop per quest completion.

Cheers
-Tai

Arkansaw

06-07-2008, 00:35

We can always start with higher drop rates to make up for the loss of items through dying, I'm sure many will be very happy about it.

MoUsE_WiZ

06-07-2008, 06:11

I was talking about something along the lines of a Hardcore only Uber Tristram. Something that would require a massive investment and risk in order to gain a high reward.

It is still providing a fairly significant motivation to play HC over SC beyond the thrill, which I think is just plain silly.

I don't want to attract people to HC who are only there because they want to see everything the game has to offer... that leads to whining from those people over things that I find fun (would list examples, but don't want to single out certain people as whiners).

So not only does it make the SC population unhappy about either having to play HC or not see ubertristlikequest, but it also makes myself rather unhappy about having said people in my community ~_~

If people hadn't been able to experiment in Ubers forever in SC we might have taken a lot longer to figure out the correct tactics and approaches and may well have stayed a pipe dream quest that few could achieve.
There wasn't really a lot to figure out. Basically just the level of meph's conviction, other than that everyone knew smiters killed DC fast and dracs was king on smiters, so yeah. It might have taken a bit longer, but I don't think it would've taken THAT much more time.

However I do agree with the sentiment.

Here's something I could live with - make some sort of very hard task, make it available to both SC and HC, however alter the monsters in HC in such a way, whether by AI, stats, or whatever else, as to make the SC strats inapplicable when applied to the HC version of the quest.

Example - make ubers immune to crushing blow on HC, and however it is expected that HC players would deal with them, make them immune to that on SC. Just as a rough example.
Ideally the changes wouldn't alter the difficulty of the quest, just change it so that experimentation on SC didn't net results usable in HC.

5zigen

06-07-2008, 07:00

I dunno, I think just plain putting in a uber trist like quest that is possibly a little harder into the game is enough, just make it incredibly hard to do without dying.

Then, slightly modify the reward, whatever it is, to be distinctive to hc, so people will see it and think "wow, he/she did THAT?!?"

That way you don't need to change anything between the modes, except for the reward to look distinctive.

Tai.

06-07-2008, 09:39

We can always start with higher drop rates to make up for the loss of items through dying, I'm sure many will be very happy about it.

Actually, that's the main thing this thread has been arguing against. We don't want increased drop rates to make things easier for us.

Mousey, I don't think you quite grasp the difficulty of what I'm suggesting. It wouldn't be a direct translation of Uber Tristram, but more a borderline suicidal venture designed to be a true test of your characters durability. It may well not be viable, but people seem to be arguing against it by saying that it would draw people to HC.

Ideally, I'd like to see the difficulty level for HC kicked up a notch but that's just me. This quest however would be (theoretically) something you could only do once with a character, with level restrictions (maybe can only be accessed if you are maxed) and would be an absurd level of difficult. Even if it were difficult enough that nobody ever bothered with it after the first few weeks of experimenting I'd love to see it as an option for HC play, just as a grail to aspire to. Think something like Meph's Conviction while having to deal with Nihl's Viper Clouds and Iron Maiden for an idea on difficulty level.

Obviously, it might not be viable and I'm still not even sure I'd truly like it if it were implemented but it bothers me that people seem to feel that SC players would be drawn to HC by endgame quests. If you had a quest that a decked out party of 8 could attempt and maybe have a 10% success rate and coupled it with a "one attempt per character" restriction I don't see how that would draw people over from SC. They'd have to deal with the permanent death that SC players seem to fear so much every step of the way to even get to a point where MAYBE they could someday achieve this one additional quest. If I were an SC player I don't think I'd take that trade unless the servers got to the point that the quest was exploitable.

I am not working within a framework that assumes exploitation, this is all theory and I feel that assuming Blizzard cannot maintain D3 while making any theoretical departures is bound to limit our thoughts to what we've seen in D2.

As always, not a fully thought out idea but I felt the need to correct what I felt were misconceptions about the idea.
-Tai

MoUsE_WiZ

06-07-2008, 11:55

I'm not sure that it matters how hard it is.
If it's something you can do in HC but not in SC, and comes at the end of everything else, even if it's next to impossible (eg boss doing 1-99999999999999999999999 unmitigatable damage, leaving you with like a .01% chance of it rolling a number low enough to not 1 hit you regardless of anything) it's still something that clearly says "I beat the game".

There's going to be a lot of extra people wanting to play the only mode that actually allows the option to beat the game I think.

Besides, if it's a challenge like that you're looking for, just go out and start dueling... if you're up against random numbers (which I think you'd have to be... D2 is fundamentally not a game with TOO much room for pure skill, and knowledge spreads as soon as one person knows how to do it... maybe blizz will change the skill requirement maybe not) you may as well just be fighting chargers or light sorcies, no?

Arkansaw

06-07-2008, 12:15

It can be better drop rates along with exclusive items, tougher monsters/quests to make up for that, I don't think anyone would mind that. But how should that extra toughness be achieved? For the bosses I sure hope it will be something more than a much fatter lifebar

sneakytails

06-07-2008, 21:38

Monsters that grab you and bite your head off and then stomp on your corpse? I would say thats a step in the right direction in monster difficulty. That monster at the end of the gameplay trailer made shenk the overseer look like a cuddly mini-pet. I don't think anyone can argue that.

And If an extra socket or two on a socket quest makes the game end sooner then the devs have something wrong. This would be a great reward for a SPHC that levels more slowly. I don't need two of every reward, I just need a little extra nudge to keep me going.

Kind of like ladder only runewords but only much less cool and useful.

phool

06-07-2008, 23:13

A few hardcore exclusive items would be neat, I wouldn't support anything else though for reasons Mouse_Wiz posted. A few extra items aren't incentive to play a mutually exclusive mode however unless they have stats like dream which allow for a couple of unique builds.

Hamslice

07-07-2008, 00:41

I'd be down for some crazy hard death-defying quest chain in end-game, but I'd only want the reward to be a flag or aura or something that shows up around my character. In keeping with the hardcore mindset, it would be for bragging rights, but no real reward.

GUFF

07-07-2008, 03:49

I really do hope HC makes it back in game. It makes the game much more satisfying imho.

I think some kind of "carrot" would be nice if HC mode is choosen. It should not be an uber runeworld level item nor should it be a little extra gold but somewhere in between.

I don't see the problem with something small like this.

5zigen

07-07-2008, 11:09

The "death replay" from the other thread would be AWESOME as a hardcore only feature, thought I know that's different from hardcore only content.

IhatePindle

11-07-2008, 00:13

Something that would require a massive investment and risk in order to gain a high reward.

Ideally it would be incredibly hard. Something that if you went into it with a group and played near perfectly you MIGHT all come out alive from, but most of the time your attempts would be ineffectual.

I was just considering the possibility of a high end nigh suicidal task for HC players only and thought I'd ask if people thought it had merit

Cheers
-Tai

Tai, I'm just thinking, if the idea is to have some hard suicidal task... why must it be for HC players only? Having it for both, wouldn't make it any less difficult, and you(personally) would still die when you attempted it...

(my ego really wants some form of banner or flag for such an event, so that I proudly strut through the games with distinguished honors, like a superhero)
and I'd tell everyone, yep... 6 of my friends (tie among others) died trying to kill "whatever"

Tai.

11-07-2008, 04:11

Well, if it was so you could only TRY it once with a character I guess it wouldn't matter too much, but if it was you could only complete it once I wouldn't want SC players to be able to just try it 100 times til they succeeded

Shadowknife

11-07-2008, 05:06

Call me crusty and set in my ways, but I'd prefer nothing extra. Playing hardcore is it's own reward. Keeps the riff-raff out.

s4nder

17-07-2008, 23:49

HeroQuest

18-07-2008, 13:06

Before reading this thread, i really liked the idea of HC only items. Now i'm not so sure.

What i WOULD like, is a variation on Quests, which ultimately give you the same Quest reward as SC, but more challenging.

Like in Diablo1, sometimes you got the butcher quest, or the poisoned water supply, other times you didnt. But ultimately it didnt give you any particular advantage of what Quest you got.

To use Diablo2 as an example, maybe in HC once you have defeated the 3 ancients, you think the quest is done, only to realise that you now have to defeat the ancients themselves, not the spirits of the ancients. Kind of a suprise "oh, sh*t!" kind of element.

Maybe not such a ground breaking example, but it would be nice to have an additional challenge through HC

Kraye

20-07-2008, 08:55

Well, the only difference I would want is maybe more blood in hardcore.

konfeta

22-07-2008, 16:02

That kind of thing goes against the spirit of hardcore. It was designed as a simple thing, with 1 change that massively differentiated the two modes. You play the exact same game softcore does, but one life.

Any changes such as exclusive content would ruin the spirit of hardcore and piss off the community. No thanks. It's one thing when you get other titles and such cosmetic changes, but Hardcore should be identical to softcore in every way except for that one change of having one life.

jamesisbest

22-07-2008, 20:28

Would be nice if they had a hardcore only end game solo event in which a player can fight waves and waves of continually stronger monsters until the player dies. No rewards and no item drops (except potions and orbs perhaps). Would be a fun event to do if you wanted to kill off a hardcore character that you were no longer going to use. You could see how far you could go until you died.

konfeta

22-07-2008, 23:05

There is zero reason for that to be a hardcore only event. It can easily be modified for softcore use. Softcore needs good end-game options, too.

Gigashadow

23-07-2008, 02:23

Hardcore already has higher drop rates. I think that's more than enough. That's not why I play Hardcore, anyway.

konfeta

23-07-2008, 03:56

Hardcore already has higher drop rates.

Since when... You are the first person I saw making that claim.

Gigashadow

23-07-2008, 07:00

Play Softcore for a bit then play Hardcore you'll notice: you get more/better stuff on Hardcore. It's a pretty subtle difference, though. But I heard this from a lot of Hardcore players that I know; it's one of the reasons some people go into Hardcore, apparently. If you want an official source, I can't give you one, so you can as well not believe it, I suppose.

konfeta

23-07-2008, 15:33

....
No. I played both, and nothing about the drop rates suggested a difference.

Anecdotal evidence for something that is based on random number generators is B.S. There is zero statistical evidence (nor there is a confirmation by people who mod for Diablo or Blizzard themselves) for your claim. By your logic, the following can be said:

Me and my 2 other friends played a bunch of classes, and our Amazons totally found better items than other characters! Hey guys, Amazons get better drops than everybody else!

Gigashadow

25-07-2008, 17:39

You didn't really say anything viable except "I don't believe you". I don't think I am asking anyone to believe me. And there are tons of things where nobody ever got an official confirmation. And you certainly didn't get my logic if you make such a stupid example.

If you don't believe something, say just that, no need to start making fun of me or ****.

konfeta

25-07-2008, 18:14

You were stating an unsupported (and unsupportable) claim as fact and think nobody would call you out on it? I wasn't making fun of you, I pointed out the fallacy of your logic.

People have the exact drop percentages for every monster in the game for every item, and you somehow think they missed something as obvious as a noticeable in real time difference in drops when the drop rates are .000000x if not less?

sneakytails

26-07-2008, 05:50

The fact that ladder players had very powerfull ladder only runewords only available to them for a significant amount of time really throws the "we want the game the same on all modes" argument right out the window.

Yes they are available now through a mod that is now accepted by most of the SP community, but for a significant amount of time they were exclusive to only a certain group of players. How is that even remotely fair?

These runewords without a doubt brought peeps to ladder who would have otherwise not played ladder.

The point?

At one point exclusive content made it into diablo for a certain group of players. (BNET Ladder) Thus hardcore only content would not be doing something unheard of in the diablo franchise history. Blizzard has already started down this path (its too late) and I would like to see more of this, however I would like to see it spread out between BNET and SP play.

So while I have no problem with the original posters idea of a superhard quest for BNET hardcore, I do have problems with no SP equivalent. So by bringing this idea up your digging up old problems that have never been resolved by blizz.

The only solution is to spread out the unique content among all modes and styles of play in D3. sort of like adding seasoning to a dish. The problem is that blizzard may not have to manpower for this until things slow down during future patches. Then I could see some things like this appear.

until that time we can just argue on what that may be.

5zigen

26-07-2008, 07:10

Since when... You are the first person I saw making that claim.

People ALWAYS make this claim. It's false though.

konfeta

26-07-2008, 17:40

Great post, sneaky, except for the part that ladder wasn't separate from non-ladder in neither gameplay or playerbase.

If they were permanently separated with actual gameplay differences (such as hardcore against softcore), you would have had a point.

CombatShrine

26-07-2008, 18:50

i think it would be cool if they added hardcore-only content, but only stuff that would benefit hardcore players, i.e. extra lives, or a free revival of a slain character (or even a friend's character).

Tai.

27-07-2008, 00:52

But the point is that that wouldn't benefit Hardcore at all, it would in fact make HC not HC

sneakytails

28-07-2008, 04:44

AH HA!

But there is a difference konfeta, you just have to zoom out a little bit.

What I meant to emphasize more in my post was the difference between bnet and SP. The fact that there was exclusive content available to the former group of players. Through the 19 powerfull runewords and 29 online only items. This is exclusive content, content available to one group of HC players (bnet) but not another (SP).

And this does not even consider the world event or the ubers quest. These also qualify as exclusive content. Hence my statement that blizzard has already started down the path of exclusive content and its too late to turn around now. A large segment of the playerbase (mostly bnet) has accepted this.

This is what I meant by the problem that blizzard has created and has not really addressed. This has created a gap between SP and Bnet players.
Tai's version of HC cannot be my version of HC simply because he has access to content (ubers) and items (like reapers toll for his merc) that I do not.

This is why I have no problem with exclusive content as long as it is spread out in a fair manner,because as it stands now there is NO pure one HC playing experience, there are two noticeably different ones, and they are not the same difficulty or experience both ways.

So anyone that has access to items that in fact help make the game a little easier at difficult levels arguing that they do not want content that does exactly that makes me scratch my head. Exclusive content is already in the game.

CombatShrine

28-07-2008, 05:48

But the point is that that wouldn't benefit Hardcore at all, it would in fact make HC not HC

Well, I mean, it doesn't sound too unreasonable to have a very difficult, lengthy quest where the reward is a resurrection of a slain HC character.
It just shouldn't be an "item", because eventually its just gonna get duped.

entranced

28-07-2008, 06:55

Well, I mean, it doesn't sound too unreasonable to have a very difficult, lengthy quest where the reward is a resurrection of a slain HC character.

Play SC? I really don't get this train of thought at all...

konfeta

28-07-2008, 08:41

In principle, you are correct, sneaky. However, I stand by the idea that there is a difference between exclusive content for single-player and multi-player and exclusive content for various game modes.

Single-player, by definition, has less content than multi-player. You, realistically, have far less access to items than a multi-player player. You don't have interaction with other players. You don't have a community you can access in-game. Blizzard physically cannot make the two modes equal, you and Tai, even with identical game rules will not be capable of playing the same game. Since they cannot make the games match in content no matter how hard they try, "exclusive" content for multiplayer shouldn't be viewed in the same manner as "exclusive" content for game modes.

Hardcore and softcore do not automatically share this fundamental difference. Nor they should. Both are multiplayer modes and active communities. Separating them with exclusive content will invariably break the definition of hardcore. Hardcore isn't "different content" mode; that isn't the point of it. It's not even truly balanced for - it is simply softcore with a simple modification of having one death.

Now, personally, I think not allowing single-player to get access to same runewords and Pandemonium style events was a mistake by Blizzard (however, I can understand their desire to attract more players to multi-player); but I do not believe that is justification or precedent for more exclusive content between modes that are suppose to be equal in content. Blizzard has only to gain from trying to get more people to use their multi-player services. Blizzard has nothing to gain from antagonizing their multi-player communities by turning them hostile to each other with exclusive content and other such "favoritism". You may argue that they could try to make different, but equal content for hardcore and softcore, but that ain't happening. Players are guaranteed to figure out which side got the better deal and will ***** about it.

DougDadyUsWest

28-07-2008, 19:52

I played softcore for a few months when I first started DII, but I switched to hardcore at the urging of some friends, and I never looked back. Why? Because hardcore is a community, it's a place where exploits eventually get noticed. I remember the legends of my realm very clearly. Everyone did. Playing hardcore is about taking the next step and really challenging yourself.

It's fine to run the ladder on softcore, but what is the fun in that? How many times have you seen a level 90+ die in Chaos Sanctuary runs? Then, think about hardcore. It was rare to see someone die in hell period, because by that time the weak players had been sorted out and all that was left were strong players, and generally cool people. I don't have any facts to support this claim, but we can all probably agree, HC players are much cooler than SC :yes:

So, I play hardcore because the players get to know each other over time, and a sort of community develops, because the game play is of a much higher level and there aren't any moochers or leechers, and because it's fun!

No hardcore only content! All I need is a different title and a different look in the chat room like DII to let people know that I play HC.

CombatShrine

29-07-2008, 00:00

Play SC? I really don't get this train of thought at all...

Are you really that thick?

It was merely a suggestion that the HC-only content have something to do with hardcore.

Can you even read? Where did I say "make it like softcore"?

Read, think, then post. In that order.

5zigen

29-07-2008, 00:04

Are you really that thick?

It was merely a suggestion that the HC-only content have something to do with hardcore.

Can you even read? Where did I say "make it like softcore"?

Read, think, then post. In that order.

the suggestion of resurrections is an attempt to make HC more like SC.

Lyrs

29-07-2008, 08:40

Good loot idea:
In HC, when a player dies, you can loot the body for 1 random item from their worn slots.

5zigen

29-07-2008, 09:52

Good loot idea:
In HC, when a player dies, you can loot the body for 1 random item from their worn slots.

I'm going to make a thread about this actually.

BigVF

04-08-2008, 06:06

I recently had this same discussion with a couple friends who played HC with me back in the day. I'm all for Hardcore incentives. It's one of the only reasons I'd come back to playing HC in D3. My playing time is a lot more restricted nowadays so I really don't think I'll have the will to put together another HC account. But.. if my deeds are given a bit more of a reward than the norm, it's possible I could make an exception.

Wussenbol

04-08-2008, 13:47

Hardcore only content isn't a good idea IMO, except for maybe some trophies.

Wussenbol

04-08-2008, 15:35

5zigen

04-08-2008, 22:15

Lyrs' idea is actually pretty good also. Wild West style bounty killers are inevitable anyway, better reward these PK'ers. That of course to be implemented in a patch after the game gets released. Why? We first need to know hackers won't ruin it for all of us.

D2 is old, so it's reasonable it's easy to cheat there. D3 needs to be different.

Blizzard would never give an incentive for griefing... Hacks or no hacks, giving people a huge incentive to pk would destroy the community aspect of the game.

Wussenbol

04-08-2008, 23:20

5zigen

05-08-2008, 01:20

Also, gear needs to be difficult enough to be obtained. You may be right about that. Even though hardcore characters with topnotch gear still alive are hard to kill, PvM builds would be quite defenseless and stripped off their gear too easily.

To be honest it would just turn into the current HC situation where everyone plays in private games to avoid getting tppk'd. If there was a huge incentive to pk the number of pk's would rise, even if there weren't hacks people would get sick of a) their game being constantly interrupted or b) losing characters all the time to legit pk's that the public game pool would be almost zero at high levels.

I dunno if gear needs to be supper difficult to attain. I Think what would be better is if blizz could do a gear sink, like you sacrifice a piece of gear to upgrade another piece of gear... or something. but that wouldn't be hardcore only.

Wussenbol

05-08-2008, 13:16

I agree on that, except the hack part. Blizzard should have a harsh stance against hackers, as they now have (good job Bliz). One great way strike hackers is to bind accounts to CD-keys: one CD equals one account. No longer would getting banned be a minor issue.
Whiny bastards always will be active in the boards of Blizzard's products. They shouldn't listen to 90% of the feedback, which is only destructive anyway.

As for PKs (no TPPK necessarely, D3 may get fairer PK; let's hope at the least): no incentive is needed to make people want to kill each other. The best way of gaining respect in PK-communities is to kill notorious PKs and take their ear (this is almost impossible to do because they are quick in pressing esc up enter; main reason is the existence of TPPK, the coward's method). :)
I hope you realize that killing people within the safety of the town walls, is detrimental to gameplay and that it is a major flaw D2 has as a game. People always play by the freedom a game has to offer (in the form of glitches or otherwise).

Akse

05-08-2008, 13:21

We already have the cooler titles (King,Queen,Guardian) and the better chat look.

Bri

26-08-2008, 02:13

If i could design the next Hc model...some quick things i can think of are:

(1) Everyone is hostile unless clanned
(3) Playing with clan pals does not level you faster
(2) No trading = Find your own items and use them

1...Seems fair to me if we creat public games those who enter a hc public game
will automatically be flagged hostile unless clan tag the same.
2...I know we wont get to 99 but for me it was never my top priority
3...This i like the best...All my favourite old chars have worn the best things
i've found during many 100's of hours spent mf'ing.
I can see this not going down well with most and i suppose it seems extreme
but i think i'de enjoy it :D

cheers.

zGuJ

31-08-2008, 09:05

I think that would be awesome, more people would come to hardcore and strive for those items and potentially more challenges in pvp mode. Feel free to disreguard i'm very biased with this opinion seeing as I only hardcore pvp =)

CaptainDingo

01-09-2008, 04:52

Dying in SC is a lawl moment and no one puts the effort to play the game properly, they just screw around.

Some of you "hardcorians" are a real class act.

Sein Schatten

02-09-2008, 15:04

Sure, if there is Softcore only content. :)

stillman

04-09-2008, 03:44

Sure, if there is Softcore only content. :)

Actually, I agree with that. I think HC only content would be really fun to encounter. And no one could complain much because there could also be SC only content. With this idea, everyone gets kind of screwed: SC players get screwed by not seeing the HC only content, and HC players are equaly screwed by not seeing the SC only content. We all get screwed equally.

They'd have to balance it though so SC and HC content is equally empowering and rewarding in both modes, but somehow different.

Furthermore, I believe it's OK for HC players to get a little extra treat (cosmetic, trophy, different ending, etc) for playing HC. I don't think SC players would feel left out too much if the reward doesn't give an upperhand to HC players.

Tai.

05-09-2008, 00:03

So how about we offset potential Hardcore only content with Softcore only content?

My first thought on that would be an item that would bind to your inventory upon your tenth PvM death (or perhaps like your third in the same game) with either no mods or negative mods that you cannot drop or trade. Tie it so that when you loot your corpse for the Nth time it automatically appears in your inventory and cannot be removed, at the cost of being able to pick up an item if that's the current situation.

I see it having a Teddy Bear graphic. Any ideas?

Starving_Poet

05-09-2008, 22:12

What if softcore only content was exactly the same as hardcore only content, then we could each just respect that people don't need an excuse to play either and go on our merry way.

Runefang

06-09-2008, 01:17

If softcore only content = hardcore only content then the game is exactly the same for everyone therefore there is no hardcore or softcore only content.

I seriously don't think that many people would care if hardcore got something unique, I think you hardcore players overrate yourselves and the style of game you like to play. Sure some more people would try it, they'd do it once and then go back to softcore unless they really enjoyed the hardcore experience in which case you've made converts.

kevink

10-09-2008, 10:07

The rewards for playing hardcore are those moments when you are about to die, hit a full rejuv at the last moment while your heart literally feels like it has stopped, and then somehow exit the game with cat like reflexes to rejoin and see you had 1hp left. Then jumping up and down screaming HOLY SH#T. That is the reason I played hardcore. Its just more suspenseful.

CaptainDingo

10-09-2008, 15:18

If softcore only content = hardcore only content then the game is exactly the same for everyone therefore there is no hardcore or softcore only content.

That was kind of the whole point.

You shouldn't be rewarded content-wise for playing a particular mode. The reward is supposed to come from playing the mode itself. I see no reason to bait people who usually only play softcore into playing hardcore just for a few special loot drops, or vice-versa.

PCyph

10-09-2008, 17:43

When I get home from school I'm making a HC char,

**** my lvl 94 chaos and baal runs where I die every so often,
**** is going down.

Peli

11-09-2008, 00:30

I'm not sure I would be ok with hardcore only content, but I must say that the "exclusive content" argument doesn't hold water. Hardcore is much more difficult than sc, no denying it. Therefore additional rewards for additional difficulty are not beyond the realm of reason. Most video games offer a easy and a hard mode, and the only way to obtain certain items or certain endings is to play on the more difficult setting. The crux of the matter is that, by the nature of the game, additional rewards, if they are tangible, reduce the difficulty of the game, thus defeating the purpose.

Therefore I believe that additional items for HC mode would be counterproductive. Part of me, however, is in favor of additional quests and possibly content for HC mode, not because I want to have a leg up on SC players when D3 arrives and I inevitably roll HC, but because, as someone already mentioned, in SC difficult content is trivialized because you can beat your head against it until you win, and the lessons learned can be transferred to HC from SC, therefore trivializing it to a certain extent in HC as well. I learned my lesson from raiding in WOW: with a nearly nonexistent penalty for death, the only obstacle to progress is time spent and attention span. Therefore if content is shared between the 2 modes, SC becomes "practice mode" and HC becomes "game time".

fatwisconsinguy

08-10-2008, 03:06

classix

19-10-2008, 11:43

i dont believe there needs to be any exclusive content.

the "x-factor" on playing diablo is hardcore mode. since lod hc is so godmode like and overpowered i dont consider it as a hardcore mode, more like a real waste of time. i mean suiciding after 99 to get the #1 slot? sure....

i dont think anyone said it, but im going to say it - classic hardcore players are the better and real players of diablo. its an elitest view but i dont care, its true. we have "less" but achieve more than both modus.

the fact you could log in, join another channel/game and get random pms "awesome well done in hc at 9x!" in the old days pre 1.07/8 was the real deal, a real sense of achievement.

no its not an "e-penis" thing, its knowing that there are only a handful of ppl in your community that have achieved the high end of the game. it builds credibility for the seasons you run, your clan/guild and it puts you down as a "hall of famer" amongst the community.

for that reason alone, no need for extra content, items or reward.

u play hardcore cus u want to be the best of the best, pvp always on the edge, enter a game as your last - not for hot loots or xp bonuses.

classix

19-10-2008, 11:46

Sure, if there is Softcore only content. :)

softcore already got exlcusive content - release to town:wave::jig::jig::jig::jig::jig::jig::jig::jig: :jig::jig::jig::jig:

ICheatAtGolf

11-12-2008, 00:51

I like the idea, but I don't think this "content" should be TOO over-the-top, because SOMEONE is going to have to risk their character (and probably lose it) so the rest of us know what to do, or how to beat the quest. It should be doable by someone who's going in uninformed.

ICheatAtGolf

11-12-2008, 01:02

Providing more of anything that makes life easier defeats the very concept of making it harder.

Alright, well in that case, lets take out potions and health globes. They make things easier. Oh hell, while we're at it, lets take away weapons as well! Yeah, that'll show em.

Lets say you worked as a fireman. Would you want to be paid the same wages as someone who works at a gas station? Hell no, you're laying your life on the line every time you get called for an emergency! Well you might just say "then work at a gas station" but then, where's the sense of accomplishment?

MoUsE_WiZ

11-12-2008, 06:21

Lets say you worked as a fireman. Would you want to be paid the same wages as someone who works at a gas station?

That's the problem right there.
Items are not some form of "payment" or "reward" for playing the game, they're just in there to improve your ability to play the game. The "payment" is the fun you get from playing the game.

Unless you're selling items I suppose, then they're pretty directly equivalent to payment. But in that case (or if you're going to try to argue something like "finding items is the fun") any reward HC players get is the same for all HC players; if Shakos are twice as common, they're worth half as much, and they're that much less exciting to find, just as an example.

Alright, well in that case, lets take out potions and health globes. They make things easier.
Two quick things to mention there too:
First, the key word in what you quoted is "more", as in "above what is in SC"; there comes a point in HC when the risk of dying is very minimal and any extra help makes the long times between death seem easier than SC.

Secondly, I'd be all for making hardcore harder as described above. Just be that much cooler if you manage to beat it.

Funkopotamus

11-12-2008, 21:14

I know that this has all been touched in one way or another, but I played hardcore because there was a goal of not dying. Not some trivial walk back to my corpse. I want to play hardcore without getting anything special, to brag to everyone, yeah I did this without dying. That's what hardcore is truly about. From what I've seen, most of the base hardcore community will agree with me. :thumbup:
I agree with this. Playing hardcore is its own reward. You did it! On hardcore! If there's any kind of bonus I don't think it should have any kind of effect on the game play.