Respecs

[Brother Laz]

So there will be respecs in D3, as Flux (?) confirmed.

This has many advantages: you can recover from a wrongly placed skill point, try out skills, ditch bugged skills and skills with misleading descriptions, and you don't have to level up again (this mostly applies to long linear games like WoW; D2 allowed you to shortcut much of the game, so it didn't take long to get back up to useful levels again).

There is one big disadvantage: once you have made five characters, one of each class, you are pretty much finished because you can change them to whatever build you want. You have a bowazon and want a javazon? Hit respec button, get Titan's Revenge from your stash, put points into LF, wallah you're a javazon now.

......

Considering it probably won't take long to level up to a halfway decent level in D3 and there are only five classes, I'm not sure if respecs in this case are such a good idea...

Last random thought: respecs cut out the early game and the levelling progress. If this is a good thing, what does that say about the early game and levelling? Perhaps people want to avoid it because... it is boring?

[Leohappy]

respec will most likely be a quest reward, which means one per game, or one per difficulty, which will not break the game at all.

what this means? you willbe able to spec your low level character to your wishes, then simply respec it again at high levels. will make the game more enjoyable as it is now, where everyone is tweaking their characters in advance.

[Baal]

There is one big disadvantage: once you have made five characters, one of each class, you are pretty much finished because you can change them to whatever build you want. You have a bowazon and want a javazon? Hit respec button, get Titan's Revenge from your stash, put points into LF, wallah you're a javazon now.

.


I don't think that's a disadvantage at all.

It's as simple as this: if you want to level up each class with different builds - do so. I mean, you could cheat in D2 and respec your character if you really wanted to. But you didn't... Same with D3 - instead of hitting respec, just go start a new game. Use some will power.

To me - leveling different specs wasn't the fun part of the game. The exploring, leveling, and then running bosses at the end was the fun part. Respecing to me is only fair. Why should I be stuck because I accidentally clicked the wrong skill, or because I wanted to test the game and find a build I loved... Why should I have to make 10 characters just to find that right build? Why shouldn't I be able to test new things with the same character as I level up and go through the game?

Respecing to me just allows me to have more fun and not be such a tight butt about every single point I spend. It would allow me to test builds and try to have fun with a character - much like I did in WoW.

[stillman]

Gosh I tihnk rearranging your skill points and such is not just unrealistic, it also stabs RPG's in the back. Transformig your bowazon into a javazon for example seems, well, not very romantic. Is she just a piece of wet clay? "Some bowazon YOU turned out to be" is what I would say to her if I changed her, lol.

I'm hoping this idea will indeed be a quest reward where you can only take back ONE poor decision regarding a single skill point investment. Thus, it would fix the "my hand sliped" problem.

[Kiroptus]

Respecs are just an user friendly option for noobs and we will all be noobs in the first time we pick up D3. I dont think its such a huge villian as some people make it to be.

Titan Quest handled that right. You could respect but the costs would be increasing the more you respec, to a point that it just gets impossible to respec so you better get a fixed build and make up your mind. I am all up for those kinds of respec even tho I never really used it.

I did use it a bit on Titan Quest when I was a noob about the skill's effectiveness but after I got what every skill did, I never really needed to use it again.

[Erwwwd]

I do not think it will be easy to respec, and that you indeed have limited tries to do it. Just look at how it would hurt PVP, you can change your character every time to meet the needs of another adversary. Complete freedom in changing all your stats whenever you wish is also very un-rpg like if you ask me.

[Baal]

I do not think it will be easy to respec, and that you indeed have limited tries to do it. Just look at how it would hurt PVP, you can change your character every time to meet the needs of another adversary. Complete freedom in changing all your stats whenever you wish is also very un-rpg like if you ask me.

That's easy to deal with...

Allow one respec per load - and you have to do it when you load your character... So you get a chance to spec when you load in, and if you don't, then you're stuck with that build until you unload.

[Rashiminos]

Oh. GOD. No. Horrible Idea. If you need a picture, check the PvP forum on the WoW website.

@Baal- You're seriously overestimating the willpower of the majority of gamers in this respect.

[Kingston]

If it is really limited, I can see it.

If not, well, there goes one major fun factor out of the window. Discovering builds and all that. Levelling up a brand new char after a patch because they nerfed some overpowered skill was great fun.

[Rashiminos]

I don't see the confirmage as of yet, rumor-millers...

[konfeta]

All they said is that they are considering it. Besides, as long as it's limited like in Titan Quest, it will be fine. Don't forget that there are stats to worry about. And that many people find it enjoyable to play a character out with a specific build, because they care about the journey there as much as they care about the result.

[Davidus]

i suport limited(very limited) respecs. one / char. maybe a hell quest reward for defetaing the endboss or something

[worlann]

Personally, I would prefer it if respecing could be done at any time, but require a massive fee (assuming gold isn't silly easy to obtain as the other games).

[Nimbostratus]

My thoughts on this:

Minor respec: This would be nice, for the occasional misplaced point. Relative to D2, a good limit would be 25 stats/5 skills or something like that.

Major/full respec: If they have this, it should NOT have a gold/item cost. Instead, it should "cost" a portion, 5-10% or so, of your stat/skill points. Prevents abuse of the system, while helping out players who really screwed up their build.

[sicilian]

How about this:

You get one free respec where you get all your skill points back. It's a mulligan.

Second time you respec, a random half of your points become set in stone, leaving you to respec the remaining half.

third time you respec, half of the points you respecced the second time become set in stone.

This way, the more you change, the less points you actually get to move.

thoughts?

[Mythor]

They've confirmed that they don't consider being locked into a set of skills to be fun and that they will likely have some means via which you can adjust such things, but they've not even confirmed there'll be a "skill tree" as yet, so they're not going to announce what form the respec will take.

However, I can assure you, respecs will be in the game. Anyone who thinks otherwise is simply delusional. Like it or not it is now a standard feature of any good RPG and for Blizzard to leave it out would be seen as a clear mark against the game, period.

As for what form it will take? "Forgiving" is the term that will best describe it. The anti-respec brigade will probably use terms like "easy-mode" or "game-killing" depending on how rabid they are. But it is not going to be terribly punitive in nature because casual gamers hate it and hardcore gamers aren't going to not buy the game if it isn't punitive. So they can either cut out the casual gamers or they can get the hardcore's panties in a bunch. There's more money in the latter.

Look for it to be unlimited in repetition. Look for the cost to be minor (gold) or potentially "somewhat bothersome" (repeatable quest) or "really freaking annoying" (time based).
But it won't be a limited repetition thing because that just isn't fun.


respecs cut out the early game and the levelling progressLadder competitions give people a reason to re-level.
PvP tournaments with brackets give people a reason to not be max-level.
New content at lower levels gives people a reason to re-level.

I feel like I've made all these arguments before. Perhaps in another game that said it wouldn't have respecs. What happened there I wonder... :)

[MrProphet]

I don't know. Despite everything, I actually have faith in Blizzard that they'll make a great game. They can't make free respecs because they don't want it to turn into a Guild Wars type system, where you only need one of each character. I think the idea of a "massive" cost is a better idea. Something that will make you think twice about doing it. Remember, to all those people who are trying to make suggestions that will "hurt" players, such as setting some skill points in stone or even losing some skill points. The point of a respec is to perfect your build, not to totally change it.

So, I was thinking maybe, if they have "trees" of skills/talents like in WoW/D2, they would limit respecs to the same "tree" that you have your skill points in. Although this might totally ruin hybrid-type characters. :scratchchin:


OT:: Sup Laz! :wave:

[casserole]

I left Diablo about 3 years ago to play Guild Wars, where respecs are very easy to do. I have come to love this feature of Guild Wars and really wish it were implemented in another game I play...Hellgate:London. There have been numerous arguments in the Hellgate forums that have gotten pretty heated about this.

I'd like anyone who does not want respecs to answer this question...

How will my being able to respec my characters affect your game?

Keep in mind that you don't have to use the option just because it is in the game. Blizzard could even do something like what Guild Wars did and limit people to respecs only while in town. If you feel that it takes away from the development of your character, then simply don't do it. Personally, I'd like the ability to change from a sword/shield barb to a polearm barb on the fly. For me, this ability gives life to a game that I might grow bored with sooner.



They can't make free respecs because they don't want it to turn into a Guild Wars type system, where you only need one of each character.

Maybe Blizzard has made this statement somewhere and I missed it. Could you tell us where you learned what Blizzard wants to do with their game?


The point of a respec is to perfect your build, not to totally change it.

Again, where are you getting this info from? I'd like to know who has claimed what respecs are for? You seem to be painting with a very wide brushstroke. I think that this is your opinion of respecs, but certainly you can't think that everyone feels this way.

[WzWz]

Major/full respec: If they have this, it should NOT have a gold/item cost. Instead, it should "cost" a portion, 5-10% or so, of your stat/skill points. Prevents abuse of the system, while helping out players who really screwed up their build.

Might as well not even have a respec option, if you're going for that.

[Mythor]

How will my being able to respec my characters affect your game?I can tell you what answer they're going to give: "Because it means everyone will be running around with the same skills."
In other words, the answer is going to completely ignore the fact that "cookie cutter build" is a term that originated with Diablo II, a game that has no respec whatsoever.

Maybe someone will be particularly original (/spiteful) and trundle out the, "because people can get the exact same build I spent XX hours creating by clicking a couple of buttons" spiel.
Because games are supposed to be hard work, dontchaknow.

The only halfway valid reason not to have them in the game is the replayability argument. That is that by having respecs there is less cause to replay the game as the same character class but choosing different skills.
The reality is that people who see it that way aren't the type of person who would have replayed it a lot anyway, so all it's doing is potentially removing a few people from the player pool a little earlier than otherwise. It's not like everyone's going to play it for two weeks and then the multiplayer will become a ghost town. Doesn't happen in any other game with respecs, won't happen in Diablo 3.

[casserole]

I can tell you what answer they're going to give: "Because it means everyone will be running around with the same skills."
In other words, the answer is going to completely ignore the fact that "cookie cutter build" is a term that originated with Diablo II, a game that has no respec whatsoever.

Maybe someone will be particularly original (/spiteful) and trundle out the, "because people can get the exact same build I spent XX hours creating by clicking a couple of buttons" spiel.

It looks like you're playing devil's advocate, so I'll go along.

The thing is, someone may come up with that excuse, but that reason doesn't even make sense or hold water. Player A might have the exact same skill and attribute setup as Player B...big deal. I still see no way that might affect Player B's gaming experience whatsoever. There could be a thousand players with the same setup as me, it still won't have an effect on my game.

[Tankoz]

I'll just throw this idea out there.

Respec for normal mode
no Respect for hardcore mode

Obviously there will be people who don't like the idea of dying once who want no respect, but I think if its limited like people said here it could work.

[Garisdacar]

tankoz, i was just thinking that.

[Mythor]

The thing is, someone may come up with that excuse, but that reason doesn't even make sense or hold water.Oh, I know it doesn't make sense or hold water. I'm just saying, that's the answer you're going to get. ;)
Sense and the anti-respec brigade have never met and are not likely to do so any time soon. You can try introducing them to each other if you like, but you probably have better things to do. :D

[Vertigo X]

How about you make there be a respec place? As in, you'll have to travel somewhere to talk to an NPC that will allow you to respec.

Having a party with different people means that, usually, individuals have weaknesses that others make up for. Respecing on the fly essentially means that you won't need a group seeing how you can just respec to a build for each situation.

[Nimbostratus]

Might as well not even have a respec option, if you're going for that.

Now that I think of it, 10% is way too harsh. But I still think a full respec should have some stat/skill penalty attached to it. It just seems rather cheap to be able to instantly "remake" your character into something else at any time, especially if you think of PVP.

And note that I don't have anything against a minor respec to perfect your character or fix a mistake or two. Maybe give a maximum of 15 levels or so worth of stats/skills if you wanna try something out a little before making a character based on it.

[SuggestiveName]

This ruins the game. I will never ever buy it and plan to protest it endlessly.

[Werzoth]

I would like to have some form of respeccing. Not everyone has infinite hours to dedicate to games. Some of us actually have jobs, families, etc. Having to recreate a new character because I screwed up a couple skill points is not an option for some. Sometimes, you have to think a little further than your nose to see the big picture :)

Besides, if you're so adament against it, you dont have to use it.. end of story.

[stillman]

Maybe I'm just really old school, but I still think respecing takes away from the romance of the RPG. Again, it means your chr is nothing but a piece of wet clay that won't harden.
Plus, it makes little sense. It's like your zon saying "I think I'll remove some muscle protiens from my arms and somehow use those protiens to make my vision better. Well, off to the plastic surgeon. Oh, you mean I don't even need a surgeon, I can just do it on the spot here?" And, "I'll just PRETEND that I didn't swing that heavy axe around for 100 hours; let's just say I spent all that time reading books of magic instead. Yeah...it never happend...the whole thing with the axe going into skulls all day. It was book reading all the way, I swear."

[casserole]

This ruins the game. I will never ever buy it and plan to protest it endlessly.

How does it ruin your game if I respec my character?

[Donsta]

I'll just throw this idea out there.

Respec for normal mode
no Respect for hardcore mode



This works for me. Although I still think there needs to be some kind of limitation in normal mode.

[YSM]

Like it or not it is now a standard feature of any good RPG and for Blizzard to leave it out would be seen as a clear mark against the game, period.

No, it's a common feature of the modern-day watered-down overly-simplified videogame, which is appealing to the lazy immature ritalin-junkie, who happen to make up the majority of the current gamer community (or at least, seem to). It's up there with the "no death penalty" and "no nonconsensual PVP" mindset.

They sure don't make games like they used to.

[stillman]

Casserole,

You asked "how does it ruin your game if I respec my chr?"

One possible answer: You can copy my character. You can, at whim and on the spot, change your build into into my build. Now, my build is no longer hard-earned and special. And you can say "No, you copied ME. This build was MY idea."
I agree with YSM above. What is wrong with hard work and why do they have to make everything extremely easy?

[casserole]

Ok, how about we stick with a polite discussion on this?


Casserole,

You asked "how does it ruin your game if I respec my chr?"

One possible answer: You can copy my character. You can, at whim and on the spot, change your build into into my build. Now, my build is no longer hard-earned and special. And you can say "No, you copied ME. This build was MY idea."
I agree with YSM above. What is wrong with hard work and why do they have to make everything extremely easy?

That still doesn't affect your game. It isn't like a build is a secret or special for that matter. Why would you be concerned with with my toon anyhow? Furthermore, how can I create my build just like yours unless you tell me what your build is? It just doesn't add up folks.

My having a build similar to yours does not take away from the hard work that you put into your character. Your character is the same regardless of what I do.

Edit - to amusingtugboat (in the post after this) Then simply don't use the feature, it wouldn't be mandatory. Don't have the attitude, "I don't like the feature, so I don't want anyone using it." I don't know how it is possible for a game to be ruined by a feature that you NEVER use.

[amusingtugboat]

respecs just ruins the diablo feel to the game. Say you get to the end of the game and you screwed ur char up bad. Remake the char and make him better with better skills. With respec tho u can just hit a few buttons and boom that really crappy char is now one of the best. Off topic but am i the only one that really hates the word toon for char?

[Cwicseolfor]

I agree respecs don't fit in with Diablo.

I think stat-point respecs should be allowed a limited number of times, perhaps, but not skill point respecs.

Of course, we don't know how the skill system will work yet; Blizzard hasn't decided if there'll even be a skill tree.

[stillman]

Those are good points casserole, but amusingtugboat has a point with the end game chr change problem. Eventually people will learn that vit is the way to go (for example) so they will convert str to vit. This sounds like an exploit to me.

I'd also be Ok with a very small, limited change to correct mistakes (like ONE point), but my main arguement is that respecing doesn't make sense. I'm one of those players who wants to see more reality in the game. Many people don't care about reality in a fantasy game, but I do care. Things like disappearing bodies irks me. With respecing, this concept is erasing the fact that your chr did work to obtain str, or w/e. You shouldn't be able to interchange str with lets say dex or intelegence. They are too separate which is why they are made into stats in the first place. With respecing, str=dex=vit=mana. That's just taking it too far imo. There should always be the challenge of having to invest str for gear rquirements, and respecing takes away from this "building up" investment which is essential to RPGs.

[Omikron8]

this is 2008

we need both stat and skill respecs with an escalating gold (or whatever currency) cost

[Ace_wanderer]

Respecs dont belong in Diablo, if you want Respecs you should go back to WoW. The thing I like about the most about Diablo is the builds, there is so much replayability but adding respecs even if they are minor(unless its perhaps 3 skills points) will ruin it for me.

[YSM]

this is 2008

we need both stat and skill respecs with an escalating gold (or whatever currency) cost

It doesn't mean Diablo III has to suck *** just because it's 2008

[SuggestiveName]

How does it ruin your game if I respec my character?It ruins my game if there is the possibility of respecing at all. Totally ruined. 10 years of game design down the crapper.

[Tankoz]

Just thinking about this some more.

We have 4 types of "realms" in D2 right now, correct?
Normal, hardcore and their ladder variants.

So we really could have:

normal with respec
normal ladder no respec
hardcore no respec
hardcore ladder no respec

I mean how is normal respec different from just using a trainer in single player? Most people would want to play and value the ladder more due to better items etc.

[stillman]

Hey Hobbes, remember the time you and Calvin pushed the family car out of the garage and it just kept going (perhaps because you put it in neutral), and it ended up in the ditch across the street, then you had to hide in a tree from your mother who you thought would kill you? That was so funny!!

Anyway, I have no respect for respec. It is cosmetic surgeory for chrs. The playablity would decrese many fold if they allowed more than just a few minor adjustments.

[Mythor]

They sure don't make games like they used to.No they don't, and gaming is bigger and better than it has ever been. That ought to tell you something about your outdated ideas and sensibilities when it comes to game design.

Progress is a good thing. If you disagree you can of course continue playing Diablo 2. The vast majority of gamers are more interested in what new things Diablo 3 has to offer, not a regurgitation of all the same mechanics as a game from eight years ago. You can disagree if you like but the overwhelming majority of gamers prefer things like respecs (and consensual PvP) to the alternative. It's just people like you shout very loudly and therefore think you're the majority.
You're not. Get over it. :)


Oh and I'd just like to point out that not two pages after I predicted it, someone did indeed trot out the "I worked really hard on my build" whine. Thanks, stillman. I love being right. :)


Tankoz I think you have a good idea when it comes to not having respecs in the Ladder. I think that's a very sensible suggestion, since that's supposed to be about levelling your character quickly and so on.
Though I think respecs being allowed, perhaps in a seperate ladder, could be interesting as well, since you'd have builds designed to respec at certain tiers of skills, etc.
Wait, would that add replayability, trying to work out good build orders? Oh no, can't have respec adding replayability... :D

Seriously though, I think that in general there's no good argument to be made to keep respec away from the general, softcore, non-ladder/tournament folk. People who want a challenge ought to have outlets for that - hardcore, ladders, tournaments, "elite mode" etc - but for people who just want to get in and have fun the option has to be there, it's absurd to even suggest otherwise. This is a modern game, not a throwback to the turn of the century.

[YSM]

No they don't, and gaming is bigger and better than it has ever been.

No.


That ought to tell you something about your outdated ideas and sensibilities when it comes to game design.

The machanics of games now are a microcosm of what is wrong with modern-day society. Most people now are lazy, stupid and too easily offended. That's why most games released now are easy, simple in design and restrictive.

[Q33]

Hmmm, I dont know about respecs...on one hand, I think it might be good for say 1-5 skill points for when you accidentally press the skills button in the middle of a fight and assign a skill point you were saving, but I dont think you should be able to completely change your character.

Or at the very least, as others have suggested, make it a one shot deal quest reward. That way if you really screw up, you can still change it, but only once. How would this ruin the game play...you only got one chance to respec? After that, its just like the Diablo we know.

[Hrus]

I have built 4 different Frenziers with different skill layout just to see how it comes out. My friend remade his lightning zon 4 times (and last time just because one misplaced skillpoint) We both had a great fun rebuilding our favorite builds. Respec would take that from us.
And unlimited respec? Huh, so this boss is immune to cold? Let's just respec our cold sorc and make fire based one. After killing the boss we can change that back. That's kind of nonsense.
BTW - I played TQ - at least respec was limited there with quickly increasing gold cost.

How it's done in WoW? (I suppose it could be expected that Blizzard will take a lot of mechanisms from WoW)

[s4nder]

Gosh I tihnk rearranging your skill points and such is not just unrealistic, it also stabs RPG's in the back. Transformig your bowazon into a javazon for example seems, well, not very romantic. Is she just a piece of wet clay? "Some bowazon YOU turned out to be" is what I would say to her if I changed her, lol.

I'm hoping this idea will indeed be a quest reward where you can only take back ONE poor decision regarding a single skill point investment. Thus, it would fix the "my hand sliped" problem.

I agree. Respecs in games are pointless as a whole, think out your build instead of randomly clicking on skills and there is no problem. Misclicked? A small confirmation box would eliminate that problem. Don't like how it turned out? Reroll. The game is fun, isn't it? If it isn't, why are you playing it?

It got ridiculous in Guild Wars for example, where you tuned your character to exactly match a given scenario's challenges.

Respecs only create tons of flavour of the month build followers, take away any replayability and just don't make sense. Do away with them, Bliserd.

[Mythor]

We both had a great fun rebuilding our favorite builds. Respec would take that from us.How? How can a completely optional mechanic take that away from you? You're admitting you would use respec if it was available by saying that.
Respecs would not make it impossible to reroll characters if you want to, it just means you don't have to.


No.Yes. Your lack of counterargument proves you know I am correct. Gaming has evolved past your taste and that's sad for you. But the reality is plain for all to see. Gaming has gone from being a niche activity to the point now where it's one of the biggest entertainment industries in the world.
That didn't happen by sticking to the conventions of Pong, Asteroids and PacMan.

That's why most games released now are easy, simple in design and restrictive.Restrictive? Adding respec is restrictive? Sandbox games are restrictive and simple in design? Civilization IV is simpler in design than Civilization I?
Easy is a relative term. Some games are still more difficult than others. But you're not arguing to make the game more difficult, you're arguing to make it more frustrating and less fun for the majority.

The majority want respecs in some form to be in RPGs. And respecs don't affect how fun, replayable or varied a game has to be.


I played TQ - at least respec was limited there with quickly increasing gold cost.
How it's done in WoW?TQ and WoW are both unlimited respec - "limited respec" refers either to limiting how much of your character you can respec or the number of times.
WoW has an increasing gold cost associated with respec, though it caps at 50g. Cheap enough if you're not doing it every day, but you certainly won't be doing it multiple times a day.

Absolutely no reason a similarly balanced amount couldn't be implemented for D3. That way you could respec to your fire build to kill a cold immune boss, and then maybe have enough money to go back to cold... and then you'd perhaps have to save up the proceeds of another dozen Diablo runs to afford it again.
It's also possible that there could be time limits, or a quest, or you can loot respec tokens from Act Bosses sometimes, etc. There's plenty of ways to ensure people don't completely cheese the game. :)


Respecs only create tons of flavour of the month build followersAgain: "Cookie cutter" is a term that was invented for Diablo II builds. Diablo II has no respec.
"Flavour of the month" arguments ARE NULL AND VOID.

[s4nder]

That way you could respec to your fire build to kill a cold immune boss, and then maybe have enough money to go back to cold...


Yep, and that's exactly the problem with respeccing. You're no longer playing a character but a bunch of stats that you can change at any time. It's no longer about creating your avatar through which to experience the game universe, it's all about always being the counter to a specific boss unless you want to be gimped.

Kinda like in WoW, "respec to resto or you're out". I'd think games have advanced beyond whack-a-mole but apparently utter simplicity is what the casual crowd craves.

[jakotaco]

Whenever respecs aren't in I think they shouldn't be, as it hurts replayability value (which has always been one of diablo's best points, few games come even close)

As Diablo has been a game that has benefitted greatly from teamplay getting through the game. (not talking about rushing now) respeccing is negative as it reduces the amount of experienced players in lower games making it harder for new players to "get into it".

However, I must admit that whenever I encounter a game that has it I will use it and think of it as a handy feature. :whistling:


Just thinking about this some more.

We have 4 types of "realms" in D2 right now, correct?
Normal, hardcore and their ladder variants.

So we really could have:

normal with respec
normal ladder no respec
hardcore no respec
hardcore ladder no respec

I mean how is normal respec different from just using a trainer in single player? Most people would want to play and value the ladder more due to better items etc.

This is one way of solving it, pretty much like mythos :scratchchin: but it's a good way to do it.

If respecs should be allowed for all types of realms and such then I think it should come with some kind of penalty so that a respecced char is slightly weaker than a char going pure from the start. (for example only getting 95% of your skillpoints back every time you respec)

[Mythor]

it's all about always being the counter to a specific boss unless you want to be gimped. Or you want a challenge. Or you're broke and can't afford the respec. Or... You enjoy gimp classes. People played deliberately gimp classes in D2, why won't they in D3? Because there's respec? Please.

If that's a problem with respec, it can be addressed. I've already posted ways in which such a "problem" can be mitigated. Make it once per day. Have tokens drop off bosses, and they're unique (one in inventory only). Etc.

[Es Mors]

How does it ruin your game if I respec my character?

Let's say I have spent some time to build an awesome character specialized in effective and fast killing og gnarled walkers. Coincidently, you are stuck ingame against a horde of these gnarled walkers. This being a multiplayer game and all, I could now come and help you out, using both our strengths to concquer the obstacles the game throws at us. OR, you could just respec your whole character and cruise through the gnarled walkers without needing any help from anyone else. Same with all other obstacles you ever encounter.

Then, after you have cruised through the game, we decide to PvP abit together. Me, being an anti-respec by nature, I just show up with Gnarled Walker-killer witch doctor, while you of course respec into a witch doctor eating machine. I am screwed.

That's two examples of how you respecing could decrease my enjoyment of the game. This only applies to full, limitless respec ofcourse.

OP: :rolf: at the Calvin & Hobbes interlude

[Mythor]

That's two examples of how you respecing could decrease my enjoyment of the game.First one doesn't impact your time. If that person respecs to be able to take on their challenge, you'll never know they could have used your help.
Meanwhile other people who don't want to respec or can't think how to respec to deal with the situation will still need your character's help.

Second situation is like saying, that other person went and farmed good PvP gear, but you didn't. So farming ruins the game?
Or they did all the quests that give bonus attributes or skills, so doing quests ruins the game? ;)
If you want to be competitive in PvP you have to be prepared to do what it takes to be competitive in PvP. If respec is a tool in the bag, you might have to use it if you want to compete. That's just the way it goes. :)

[stephan]

Unlimited respec defies the point of having skill points. It must be limited in some way.

[Es Mors]

First one doesn't impact your time. If that person respecs to be able to take on their challenge, you'll never know they could have used your help.
Meanwhile other people who don't want to respec or can't think how to respec to deal with the situation will still need your character's help.

I never said it impacts my time, it impacts my enjoyment of the game. Are you denying that the need for other players would be less if full respecs are allowed?


Second situation is like saying, that other person went and farmed good PvP gear, but you didn't. So farming ruins the game?
Or they did all the quests that give bonus attributes or skills, so doing quests ruins the game? ;)
If you want to be competitive in PvP you have to be prepared to do what it takes to be competitive in PvP. If respec is a tool in the bag, you might have to use it if you want to compete. That's just the way it goes. :)

We were told earlier in this thread that we don't have to respec if we don't want to and it would have no effect on our games. Now you tell me that I have to respec to be competitive in PvP. Full respec ruins the game for those that don't want to use it.

[Ace_wanderer]

How? How can a completely optional mechanic take that away from you? You're admitting you would use respec if it was available by saying that.
Respecs would not make it impossible to reroll characters if you want to, it just means you don't have to.

Yes. Your lack of counterargument proves you know I am correct. Gaming has evolved past your taste and that's sad for you. But the reality is plain for all to see. Gaming has gone from being a niche activity to the point now where it's one of the biggest entertainment industries in the world.
That didn't happen by sticking to the conventions of Pong, Asteroids and PacMan.
Restrictive? Adding respec is restrictive? Sandbox games are restrictive and simple in design? Civilization IV is simpler in design than Civilization I?
Easy is a relative term. Some games are still more difficult than others. But you're not arguing to make the game more difficult, you're arguing to make it more frustrating and less fun for the majority.



Simply because its there, it will be pointless to re roll because you can just respec, if you wanted a build it would be pointless to start again because other people would be respeccing and it would feel stupid. Its human nature.

Kind of like slowing down and smelling the roses, nobody does it even people who like smelling roses. If you had no path and everyone could get to work as they wished they would go the fastest way even though they are missing out on the roses, if you make a set path then people would be forced to take the path and in the long run enjoy the roses. Bad analogy I guess but you know what I mean.

[Mythor]

I never said it impacts my time, it impacts my enjoyment of the game. Are you denying that the need for other players would be less if full respecs are allowed?Is there a need for other players in Diablo II?
Additionally, it's not just about needing other players. I want to play with friends. Don't you?
You're also assuming there's always other players available. Singleplayer gamers won't have the option of asking someone to come kill the immune for them. (Barring Open b.net/LAN of course.)
Will there be less need? Probably. Will there be any less desire to tackle the game with others? No.


We were told earlier in this thread that we don't have to respec if we don't want to and it would have no effect on our games. Now you tell me that I have to respec to be competitive in PvP. Full respec ruins the game for those that don't want to use it.As I just explained, if you want to be competitive in PvP you have to use all the tools available to you.
If you don't want to use respec, you don't have to. You can build a character from the ground up to participate, or you can suck it up and accept that you have to respec. :)

[Es Mors]

Is there a need for other players in Diablo II?
Additionally, it's not just about needing other players. I want to play with friends. Don't you?
You're also assuming there's always other players available. Singleplayer gamers won't have the option of asking someone to come kill the immune for them. (Barring Open b.net/LAN of course.)
Will there be less need? Probably. Will there be any less desire to tackle the game with others? No.

As I just explained, if you want to be competitive in PvP you have to use all the tools available to you.
If you don't want to use respec, you don't have to. You can build a character from the ground up to participate, or you can suck it up and accept that you have to respec. :)

It seems to me we have started talking about slightly different things :nod:. Anyway, for me the need of another character with other skills than your own is some of what makes the game.

And I want to be competitive in PvP without respecing. The only solution I see is full respecing not being in the game.

[s4nder]

Mythor, what do you have against rerolling to try out another spec? How is playing through the game more boring than the endgame, ie Baal runs over and over with a lvl 80+ character, so that you'd rather respec and lose all uniqueness your character had rather than reroll?

If you think the game is too boring to reroll, why play at all? Playing games is not for saving time, it's for wasting it. If I could be done with a class in a week because I can always respec to any possible build the class has, I'd have quit Diablo 2 in seven weeks. Been playing for eight years now and I think it's got something to do with no respecs.

I'll gladly reroll my characters in D2 - well, I do sometimes die in Hardcore - and it's always just as much fun as the first time because the experience is always different. If I could just have respecced my Iron Golem, Revive and Amp necro build to a standard skele summoner when 1.10 hit, I wouldn't be playing this game anymore.

Have you even played Diablo 2? Not trying to sound arrogant (again), I'm mostly just trying to see any advantage to respeccing and I've failed this far.

[Killerama]

I think we should also consider the difficulty of leveling up in Diablo 3.

I mean, in D2, with the help of a friend, you could easily get fast levels. But, what if in D3, leveling will be a slower process? What if rushing and exp runs in D3 aren't as rewarding as in D2? In that case, respecs make more sense, as it's a lot less time consuming to experiment or to fix a misclicked stat or skill.

As for my personnal opinion, if there's going to be respecing, I hope it's limited. Ideally, once per character. With unlimited respecing, players aren't forced to make character-determining descisions. In D2, I really enjoy making new chars. The lower levels have such a different playstyle than the higher ones and it's fun to be resourceful and actually use those throwing potions :nod:.

Also, good point at the "cold immune monster, so I'll switch to fire now". If there's a monster immune to your attacks, you should deal with it and not take the easy way out. For example, you could instead rely on your merc/minions/party members to take it out or you could simply avoid it. You could have also built a hybrid. Whatever choices you make for your char, you should learn to deal with it.

[Ace_wanderer]

Yeah, I agree with the above poster. I dont know if you play WoW or not but I dont, in D2 half the fun is starting all over with a new build, the game is actually fun to play maybe even better when your a low level.

[billybo]

I'm a respect fan. I kinda grow fond of my toons and hate to start all over just to try out a different skill or build.

I play Guild Wars and love being able to change my build for what ever mission or quest I'm going on. I also play Hellgate: London and there is a rear skill respect token that drops, I wouldn't mind having that in D3. :thumbup:

[Rashiminos]

Might as well not even have a respec option, if you're going for that.

That's a nice thought. :)


I would like to have some form of respeccing. Not everyone has infinite hours to dedicate to games. Some of us actually have jobs, families, etc. Having to recreate a new character because I screwed up a couple skill points is not an option for some. Sometimes, you have to think a little further than your nose to see the big picture :)

Besides, if you're so adament against it, you dont have to use it.. end of story.

Who says you spent them incorrectly, maybe your sunconscious was trying to tell you something, :scratchchin:


Just thinking about this some more.

We have 4 types of "realms" in D2 right now, correct?
Normal, hardcore and their ladder variants.

So we really could have:

normal with respec
normal ladder no respec
hardcore no respec
hardcore ladder no respec

I mean how is normal respec different from just using a trainer in single player? Most people would want to play and value the ladder more due to better items etc.

Actually I like this idea, so let's expand it.

In keeping with ideas from the DII ladder, characters will be able to find ladder-only items, and they can participate in special competitions for other rewards. Entrance fee: no respec

[Brother Laz]

That ought to tell you something about your outdated ideas and sensibilities when it comes to game design. Progress is a good thing. This is a modern game, not a throwback to the turn of the century.

I love this argument, because it is the same as the pro-automate-everything camp in SC2. You arbitrarily define 'more features' and 'easier gameplay' as 'progress' and then call everyone who does not agree luddites. Hellgateguru.com called, they want their rethorical nonstrategy back.


the overwhelming majority of gamers prefer things like respecs (and consensual PvP) to the alternative.

Firstly, scientific sources plz.
Secondsly, respecs have nothing to do with consensual PvP. Also, I prefer no respecs (and no economic crisis) to the alternative.


Oh and I'd just like to point out that not two pages after I predicted it, someone did indeed trot out the "I worked really hard on my build" whine. Thanks, stillman. I love being right. :)

I have a prediction too: someone will ''''whine'''' that they don't like the next announced class. I love being right.


Wait, would that add replayability, trying to work out good build orders? Oh no, can't have respec adding replayability... :D

Oh, very much so, because 'working out good build orders' merely means 'trying new builds a few times, then continuing with the game'.


for people who just want to get in and have fun the option has to be there, it's absurd to even suggest otherwise.

Again, you arbitrarily define 'respecs' as 'fun' and then define those who oppose respecs with fun-haters. That makes five ad hominem attacks in one post.

Please keep talking, dig deeper until you hit the magma.

......

Respec myth debunk time

No respecs means I have to painfully level up again
A: If it is that painful to level up, the game is badly designed. Also, in D2 you can pretty much reroll and get back up to a decent level in a week. This isn't WoW. So qq.

No respecs force you to reroll when you make an error
A: If the skills are properly documented and explained, perhaps with the possibility to try them out (see below), and there are no hard counter type monsters (ie. IM), it is your own damn fault if you make an error, qq.

How the hell am I supposed to know what to do at level 1?
A: There could be a shaman NPC that can put you into a dreamstate where you are 30 levels higher for a few minutes, giving you some time to try out the skills, but you gain no exp and no drops. If you know what your build does and you still complain, qq.

Dude, what if they nerf my skills?
Ideally they should nerf only overpowered skills. (This is Blizzard, we can demand a perfect world) In which case your build will only get weaker if you are overpowered, and only to the point where you are balanced. If that is a reason to respec, qq.

Respecs let me have fun
Right until you have one high level character of each class, at which point there is no reason whatsoever to ever reroll again. Have fun doing endless worldstone substitute runs, because you'll never ever ever ever see the earlier Acts again unless you want to waste your time.

......


I play Guild Wars and love being able to change my build for what ever mission or quest I'm going on. I also play Hellgate: London and there is a rear skill respect token that drops, I wouldn't mind having that in D3.

Yeah, because all of GW's skills are hard counters and picking the right ones is a tactical choice, similar to building either corsairs or reavers in SC.

Also, levelling in HGL is far far slower than in D2.

[Rashiminos]

Or you want a challenge. Or you're broke and can't afford the respec. Or... You enjoy gimp classes. People played deliberately gimp classes in D2, why won't they in D3? Because there's respec? Please.

If that's a problem with respec, it can be addressed. I've already posted ways in which such a "problem" can be mitigated. Make it once per day. Have tokens drop off bosses, and they're unique (one in inventory only). Etc.

The people who wouldn't choose a "gimp" class to play didn't play Diablo II (that long). You have fond memories of Diablo II. Connect the dots, as they say...


Second situation is like saying, that other person went and farmed good PvP gear, but you didn't. So farming ruins the game?
Or they did all the quests that give bonus attributes or skills, so doing quests ruins the game? ;)
If you want to be competitive in PvP you have to be prepared to do what it takes to be competitive in PvP. If respec is a tool in the bag, you might have to use it if you want to compete. That's just the way it goes. :)

Uh huh....

So now PvP is for respeccers only, where's the fun for the other players? I mean you're all about other players having fun...

[s4nder]

I would like to have some form of respeccing. Not everyone has infinite hours to dedicate to games. Some of us actually have jobs, families, etc. Having to recreate a new character because I screwed up a couple skill points is not an option for some. Sometimes, you have to think a little further than your nose to see the big picture :)

Besides, if you're so adament against it, you dont have to use it.. end of story.

Again, games are meant to help you spend time, not save it. So you can't play as much as the most hardcore people, that's perfectly fine. Still, all the same rules apply to everybody.

If you don't have time to play, you will see the high end content later. It's not taken away from you. Who says you have to reach the endgame as fast as others if you don't have time to play? Who says you have to reroll because you screwed up a couple of skill points?

If you do reroll, where's the problem? Won't get to lvl 99 as fast as Joe who's thirteen and plays the same number of hours a day? You can't keep up with him with two hours of playtime a week anyway.

Being extremely casual and not having any time to play does not mean special rules have to be made for you so you can still see all the high end content as fast as possible with no effort put in at all. Think a little further than your nose and see the big picture. Take your time, enjoy the game, who cares if others get there first.

I have nothing against a confirmation box that would prevent such screw-ups in the first place. But a full respec cheap enough to be usable very often is a game-killer.

Brother Laz, I agree with all points, great post. I remember having gone through this at Hellgate forums a year ago and look how that turned out. Time to try and save the next game.

[Rashiminos]

Have you even played Diablo 2? Not trying to sound arrogant (again), I'm mostly just trying to see any advantage to respeccing and I've failed this far.

The advantage is in the ability to suit your skillset to any given situation. Sources of adversity are thus negated. Bosses that aren't cheap can offer no real challenge or difficulty. Game is easier by default. That is the casual cup of tea.

Let me illustrate this with Superman:

A)Superman asks the villain, "Do you have kryptonite?"
The villain replies, "No..."
Superman gloats something like, "Then die, sucka!"

B)Superman asks the villain, "Do you have kryptonite?"
The villain replies, "Yes."
Superman, since he can't respec, moans "Dang... I need some help here..."

C)Superman asks the villain, "Do you have kryptonite?"
The villain replies, "Yes."
Superman says " I'll be right back..."
Kal-El returns in Batman outfit and gloats "Now you die, sucka!"

Everyone who wants respec also metaphorically wants the whole Justice League rolled into one...

***

Here's another crack at it...

"Why fight Diablo with only one Swiss Army Knife when you can fight him with 8 Swiss Army Knives?"

[Brother Laz]

S4nder: exactly, I hear this 'I have a job so I demand everything now' attitude far too much. People assume that the early game sucks, levelling sucks, building a character and watching it develop sucks -- all that counts is ITAM RUNZ and everything else is wasting time.

If there was a cheat code that made you level 99 instantly with no points spent, would you use it? Of course. Would the game get boring because all you'll see of it is WSK 2-3-Throne? Of course.

Well, now we have a cheat code that makes you level 99 with no points spent, usable after your first level 99 character.

Respecs in a non-PvP game are a band-aid for bad game design because they hint at bad game balance, boring early levels or both. Either embrace them as a necessary game feature (Guild Wars) or design the game properly to benefit from the longevity of no respecs and remove the disadvantages.

[Mythor]

The people who wouldn't choose a "gimp" class to play didn't play Diablo II (that long). You have fond memories of Diablo II. Connect the dots, as they say...Maybe try a sentence that makes sense, then I can connect the dots. :)


So now PvP is for respeccers only, where's the fun for the other players? I mean you're all about other players having fun...What other players? There are no "other players". If you want to PvP competitively you have to grab every advantage you can get, it's that simple.
If you just want to do it for ****s and giggles, why would you care about respec? I guess those people could be the "other players", but they'd be having fun, sooo. Lost me again. :)

But I'll throw you a bone - have a "respec counter" on character's Inspect screens (or similar screen). Players can then see if you've respec'd or could even bar PvP games from anyone who has done so.
I think you'll find the number who would be playing in the no-respec games would be very much smaller, but if that's what you want it's not like it couldn't be done. :)

[Rashiminos]

Maybe try a sentence that makes sense, then I can connect the dots. :)

That was me being subtle about the people who like respecs and what they bring to the role-playing community. Take a hint, or just lurk the WoW forums for a bit.


What other players? There are no "other players". If you want to PvP competitively you have to grab every advantage you can get, it's that simple.
If you just want to do it for ****s and giggles, why would you care about respec? I guess those people could be the "other players", but they'd be having fun, sooo. Lost me again. :)


The players you've advised about not respeccing when they don't want to respec in a game with respecs..., try to keep up with yourself Mythor.

***

Third crack at it...

Bash the Barbarian: Man, these close-combat skills just aren't working for me.
Swiss Army Sorc: Why don't you respec...
Bash: Okay...

-Sometime Later-

SAS: Whoa, WHO ARE YOU?
Bash "Vashj" the Amazon: I respecced from Barbarian to Amazon. I'm so happy now!

[Brother Laz]

Of course people won't avoid respecs if they have the option to respec! Just like people did not manage to avoid duping obsessively in D1 because it was so easy. Eventually it ruined D1.

[Rashiminos]

(Sarcasm)

How about we give players the ability to change the class and skill specialization of their characters. They'll only have to make one 'character', and they won't have to see Halls of the Dead more than once!

(/Sarcasm)

[stillman]

Carrying on with Rashiminos analogy [spoiler: I'm anti respec] ...

D) Superman asks the villain, "Do you have Kryptonite?"
The villain replies, "Yes."
Superman says, "You know how long I've been Superman? [spits on the ground] No, Louis, I don't need your help. This is between me and the villain."
The villain begins, "Uh--"
Superman: "Oh, I'll be back all right. You just wait here, Mr. Relatively Low AI. And when I get back, I'll have a little surprise form Metropolis. You'd like it if the film ended right here when my kryptonite resist is -80, wouldn't you? Wouldn't you? Well I'm letting you get away this time. Get ready for a really long sequal, you. Aw hell, flying takes too long."
And so it came to pass that Superman unrolled the town portal scroll and began chanting...

TO BE CONTINUED

[Brother Laz]

We need class respecs, because what if I just want to have some fun and play a druid for an evening?

Also, just do away with the levelling part. I mean what if I just want to be level 99, at least give me the option to start at level 99. If you don't want to use it, then don't use it. We want progress, not a rehash of the same old game. It is clear that most of us don't actually want to level anyway, that's why god invented respecs.

Oh, and I found a Buriza, but I'm a paladin. Add a recipe to turn it into a mace, please.

[Rashiminos]

Of course people won't avoid respecs if they have the option to respec! Just like people did not manage to avoid duping obsessively in D1 because it was so easy. Eventually it ruined D1.

Respec: exploit


Fits in with another crowd...

Dupers, Hackers, and... Respeccers...

(I'm joking here, but I thought of something else to say in the process)

You know, dupers don't personally ruin your game either (/sarcasm).


We need class respecs, because what if I just want to have some fun and play a druid for an evening?

Also, just do away with the levelling part. I mean what if I just want to be level 99, at least give me the option to start at level 99. If you don't want to use it, then don't use it. We want progress, not a rehash of the same old game. It is clear that most of us don't actually want to level anyway, that's why god invented respecs.

Oh, and I found a Buriza, but I'm a paladin. Add a recipe to turn it into a mace, please.

"It's not fair that I can't wear super-heavy plate armor because I'm a weak Sorceress, that's just not fun!"

[Brother Laz]

How? How can a completely optional mechanic take that away from you? You're admitting you would use respec if it was available by saying that.

You'd also use cheat codes if they were available. Eventually the game would be ruined for you.


Respecs would not make it impossible to reroll characters if you want to, it just means you don't have to.

No one will do something suboptimal, so no one will reroll. Have fun sitting in WSK forever.


Gaming has evolved past your taste and that's sad for you. But the reality is plain for all to see. Gaming has gone from being a niche activity to the point now where it's one of the biggest entertainment industries in the world.

Like the movie industry? Yep, gaming is big, 90% of the games are forgettable trash and they push out the actually good games. Doom was a legend in its days. Halo is forgotten as soon as the next shooter comes out.


Easy is a relative term. Some games are still more difficult than others. But you're not arguing to make the game more difficult, you're arguing to make it more frustrating and less fun for the majority.

If it is not fun to reroll, this means the early game is not fun or you simply don't want to level up a character and watch it grow - which by the way is a quite important cornerstone of an RPG. Getting that better weapon, new skill, or figuring out how to beat an encounter. Running from your life from the first bunch of advocates or acid dogs, then coming back to beat them later.

But hey, if modern gaming involves grinding for items in the end game (the most boring thing imaginable, much more boring than a decent early game), feel free to play Everquest 2.


The majority want respecs in some form to be in RPGs.

The majority only knows WoW where it takes months to level up and the whole thing is extremely boring because 90% is running around and 10% is easy killing of harmless monsters.

The majority only wants to get powerful fast, but the game is about the journey to getting powerful, with the desire to be powerful serving as the carrot. If you let them get powerful too fast, the game is over.


And respecs don't affect how fun, replayable or varied a game has to be.

Correct, if the game is designed for it (Guild Wars). Diablo is not.


WoW has an increasing gold cost associated with respec, though it caps at 50g. Cheap enough if you're not doing it every day, but you certainly won't be doing it multiple times a day.

Yet people QQ about the gold cost anyway.


Absolutely no reason a similarly balanced amount couldn't be implemented for D3. That way you could respec to your fire build to kill a cold immune boss, and then maybe have enough money to go back to cold... and then you'd perhaps have to save up the proceeds of another dozen Diablo runs to afford it again.

And before we know it, we'll hear 'god Baal is impossible unless you respec to cold' and then 'god it takes so long to grind gold' and then 'D3GOLD.COM $$$CHEAP' and then you'll complain that the game is too restrictive and not 'modern' enough.

[Rashiminos]

Since Hrus asked about it, I'll briefly describe the skill system in WoW.

In wow, each class has a basic set of skills that every character in the class has access to...

When people who play WoW talk about spec, they are referring to the "Talent System." Talents allow characters to enhance certain skills and learn a few new ones, thus there can be variation within a class. Respeccing allows a characters "talents" to be changed, thus "talent" is actually a misnomer in regards to WoW.

[Es Mors]

So basically, we all want different characters, so we can do more ingame. The question is wether you want to obtain them by playing through the game or by other means.

[stillman]

Superman rolls his eyes.
"Dammit Cain, would you just look at these things and point out the ones with kryptonite resist? No, just the one mod. I don't care about the other stuff. FINE!! I'll look at them [sigh]. Yes!! This one is good! Oh thank you so much Cain! It's a sword and I'll look like He-Man for the next epic battle, but no one will know. It's not like I'm transforming into a different hero just for this one guy. Hell, I'm not even doing anything WITH the sword. Jeeze, why can't there be the 3 supervillains like in the old days? Nowadays it's kryptonite kryptonite kryptonite. Kryptonite around every corner. Sometimes I wish I WERE just an ordinary man." But Superman, he forced himself to carry on.
No longer abashed, Superman walks toward the portal, now with a steely-eyed look of determination....


TO BE CONCLUDED

[stephan]

Why not simply make all skills available at maximum level, so I don't have to respec at all? I don't have much time and it's a lot of work figuring out the right skill combinations, so I think this would be better.

I'd also like the option to have the health bulb removed, cause if my char dies that just costs me more time. And it doesn't affect other peoples gaming experience anyway.

[Hrus]

If it is not fun to reroll, this means the early game is not fun or you simply don't want to level up a character and watch it grow - which by the way is a quite important cornerstone of an RPG. Getting that better weapon, new skill, or figuring out how to beat an encounter. Running from your life from the first bunch of advocates or acid dogs, then coming back to beat them later.
I agree with you - my words from different thread:


Character building is one of the thing I like at most in RPG games. I like to see what skills different characters can use, how they do in comparison to each other and I like to see them getting stronger. Of course that in the beginning, they level faster so yes, I do like to have more characters.

I am experienced in D2 now, and unfortunatly, well-built characters often start to use their primary skills around lvl24 or 30 and do use the same strategy (saving skillpoints and use 1point wonders) so this stage of game is no longer so interesting, but when I started with D2, I think I didn't have a patriarch for a year or so, while having at least 10 active characters in different parts of the game...

[Felix]

I too think that part of the longevity of DII came from rebuilding characters, it might feel like a chore but then again it was fun, you got back in the game and played it where it is at it's best. Then again, the ability to be rushed and pay for the rush with your ingame valuables is also crucial to the feeling of the game.

Much of what has kept Diablo alive was unintentional, but just right in the end. So developers needs to adress this and be aware of it. Many "improvements" might cut years of the games life.

[stillman]

Panting, eyes darting about the chamber, Superman wipes the sweat from his paled forehead. He looks down at the sword in his hand. It was not enough. The battle indeed took the length of a sequal.

But the job was done.

He looks down at the blackened body of the villain. He had used his lazer eyes to win, as his superhuman strengh proved useless against this particular slimebag (literally--the villain was a bag of slime).

Superman tosses the sword into a pile of salamander dung, where perhaps one day another hero will find it. Superman touched it. It is unique now. Along with it's arcane power to grant a mighty resistance to radiation, it may also grant a strength benefit...minor stuff compared to Superman's REAL treasures (his eyes).

To think Superman had come so close to changing his ways...to actually consider raising the sword like an enraged man might do in these circumstances. To become a barbaric son of man, and use his power to bend steel with steel rather than his own hand and eyes.

In his final moment of weakness brought on by the poisoning, Superman hunches down and clutches the villain around what some might call the scruff of a barely humanoid neck. He barks at the dead villain, with spittle embedding itself into the stone floor, "Do you have Kryptonite NOW!? Do you have kryptonite!?"

The head only lolls lifelessly; nothing was learned. Superman screams: "I said I'd be back, didn't I? Well here I am sucka!! Do you see what I had to do? Do you see the damn weapon I had to equip? And that's not all!! Cain made me go through the whole list of mods for God sakes!"

After some weeping, Superman realizes his mistake: he has spent too long dealing with his only weakness. It has been used against him since his time began. But Superman is strong and he will surely find ways around it. Superman quickly returns to the air, flying clentched fist for a while through the rolling white clouds as he regenerates his superstrength and vows that he will never again break down to the level of mortal men...mortal men such as I, the humble story teller.

Sometimes, when Supe was stopping crimes, I'll bet that he was tempted to just quit and turn his back on man, and become Javazon in the forest.


THE END

[casserole]

First of all, I'm not here to trade insults or flame anyone, please show that respect to me as well. People have used the following terms when describing pro-respec crowd; noob, lazy, immature, ritalin-junkie, casual player, WoW'er. I can't speak for anyone else, but the only one of those terms that possibly fits me is casual player. If I want to be insulted, I can get that kind of junk over at Bnet's forums.

Now, I am going to respond to 3 posts, apologies for the wall of text.


Let's say I have spent some time to build an awesome character specialized in effective and fast killing og gnarled walkers. Coincidently, you are stuck ingame against a horde of these gnarled walkers. This being a multiplayer game and all, I could now come and help you out, using both our strengths to concquer the obstacles the game throws at us. OR, you could just respec your whole character and cruise through the gnarled walkers without needing any help from anyone else. Same with all other obstacles you ever encounter.

Then, after you have cruised through the game, we decide to PvP abit together. Me, being an anti-respec by nature, I just show up with Gnarled Walker-killer witch doctor, while you of course respec into a witch doctor eating machine. I am screwed.

That's two examples of how you respecing could decrease my enjoyment of the game. This only applies to full, limitless respec ofcourse.

OP: :rolf: at the Calvin & Hobbes interlude

I don't know about you, but my desire to play in a group or play solo is not affected by how challenging an area is. If I want to play with others, then I want to play with others, end of story. Regardless of how difficult/easy the area is, I'll go coop when I want to play with others. Even if an area was easy to clear because I respec my character, I will still seek others out when I desire to coop.

Now for the pvp example. Please cut me some slack if I get something wrong, I did not care for pvp in D2 and haven't played the game in a couple of years. It looks like you are claiming that respecs should not be allowed because someone using respecs could create a build that would easily handle whatever build you have. How far are you willing to take that idea? There is always going to be someone better at pvp than you (unless you are that one best pvp'er on your realm). There will always be people out there with abilities in D2 that give them an advantage. Some people may have more time to play and accumulate better gear than you. Some people may have a better rig/connection with faster reponse times than yours. It simply is not possible in D2 to have a level playing field when it comes to pvp.

I do appreciate the responses though Es Mors.


It ruins my game if there is the possibility of respecing at all. Totally ruined. 10 years of game design down the crapper.

You've said this twice now without an explanation. I know this is a ridiculous example, but I could claim that my wearing a hat while playing will ruin my game...but simply saying it doesn't make it so. Please, explain to us exactly HOW it ruins your game.



If you think the game is too boring to reroll, why play at all? Playing games is not for saving time, it's for wasting it. If I could be done with a class in a week because I can always respec to any possible build the class has, I'd have quit Diablo 2 in seven weeks. Been playing for eight years now and I think it's got something to do with no respecs.

Maybe the reason for you playing games is to waste time, but I can tell you that is NOT the reason I play games. I play games to ENJOY the time I do have, not to kill off some extra time. That is the beauty of respecs. I believe that having the ability to respec will enhance my gaming experience, while I have yet to see how simply having that ability will decease your experience if you choose not to use it. Everyone gets to play the game they way they want to, without some people ideas of how the game should be played limiting others.

[Werzoth]

Again, games are meant to help you spend time, not save it. So you can't play as much as the most hardcore people, that's perfectly fine. Still, all the same rules apply to everybody.

If you don't have time to play, you will see the high end content later. It's not taken away from you. Who says you have to reach the endgame as fast as others if you don't have time to play? Who says you have to reroll because you screwed up a couple of skill points?

If you do reroll, where's the problem? Won't get to lvl 99 as fast as Joe who's thirteen and plays the same number of hours a day? You can't keep up with him with two hours of playtime a week anyway.

Being extremely casual and not having any time to play does not mean special rules have to be made for you so you can still see all the high end content as fast as possible with no effort put in at all. Think a little further than your nose and see the big picture. Take your time, enjoy the game, who cares if others get there first.

I have nothing against a confirmation box that would prevent such screw-ups in the first place. But a full respec cheap enough to be usable very often is a game-killer.

Brother Laz, I agree with all points, great post. I remember having gone through this at Hellgate forums a year ago and look how that turned out. Time to try and save the next game.


Let's say my friends all play casual (or my whole guild), we're at level 70 and then I dont know I screwed up something. Do you really think I want to reroll and go back to 70 alone while my friends continue? Do you think my friends will all want to reroll to level 1?

As I stated in my post, only thing I want is "some form" of respeccing. It doesnt mean unlimited respecs, even if it was just one it would help to avoid any problems. I fail to see how that "ruins your game" :)

[Es Mors]

I don't know about you, but my desire to play in a group or play solo is not affected by how challenging an area is. If I want to play with others, then I want to play with others, end of story. Regardless of how difficult/easy the area is, I'll go coop when I want to play with others. Even if an area was easy to clear because I respec my character, I will still seek others out when I desire to coop.

Now for the pvp example. Please cut me some slack if I get something wrong, I did not care for pvp in D2 and haven't played the game in a couple of years. It looks like you are claiming that respecs should not be allowed because someone using respecs could create a build that would easily handle whatever build you have. How far are you willing to take that idea? There is always going to be someone better at pvp than you (unless you are that one best pvp'er on your realm). There will always be people out there with abilities in D2 that give them an advantage. Some people may have more time to play and accumulate better gear than you. Some people may have a better rig/connection with faster reponse times than yours. It simply is not possible in D2 to have a level playing field when it comes to pvp.

I do appreciate the responses though Es Mors.



Diablo 2 example: Let's say I play a bone/poison necromancer. I'm trying to reach Izual, but I constantly keep dieing because of hard hitting monsters. Then a summoner necromancer joins the game and I become happy because now we can keep going together as a team where both our strengths matter and are valuable. Hence my enjoyment of the game is increased (this is only my opinion, of course!). If I could respec my skills, I would just make myself into a summoner and the other player who had joins the game is unnecessary. Fun to play and socialise with, but unnecessary in order to beat the game challenges (which is a big part of what I call playing the game).

For the PvP, I was merely giving an example of how other players respecing can have a negative effect on my game, as that was the question I was answering. So if respecs are available, the seemingly simple solution of "don't do it if you don't like it" isn't really an option if you want to play competitively.

And I agree with you on the many unnecessary and insulting comments in this thread, they bring nothing to the discussion to say the least.

[Omikron8]

It doesn't mean Diablo III has to suck *** just because it's 2008

you like rerolling the same character class a hundred times because you found progressively better quality bonuses on the same randomly generated item ?

personally i don't like rerolling a new amazon every time i find a better quality stats on a zon torch

and you never did a laggy misclick on a skill choice at level 80+ ?

[Hrus]

I am not against respecs but I fear that including respecs will greatly decrease replayability of the game. Everyone will use it (including my lazy person), but in the end, they will try some variant of the character, then they will find out he cannot run "Baal" as fast as the mainstream variant and respec back to mainstream. In the process they will get bored by endless running with their mainstream char and get bored with the game too. While they all love repsecs, they also stop to play the game sooner.

[Kingston]

"Respecs are AWESOME!" claims dev.

"NOOOOOOO!" screams I.

[Rashiminos]

you like rerolling the same character class a hundred times because you found progressively better quality bonuses on the same randomly generated item ?

personally i don't like rerolling a new amazon every time i find a better quality stats on a zon torch

and you never did a laggy misclick on a skill choice at level 80+ ?

If it's lagging, you may want to consider leaving the current game session, let alone spending an unassigned skill point. That's a good way to get a character killed (losing exp and gold in the process)...

[amusingtugboat]

This game isnt going to be like wow where it takes weeks/months to get a high level. Diablo takes a few days even to get up there. Assuming that diablo 3 is the same, respec would ruin a main core of diablo. Its just a part of diablo having to make a new char for that lighting sorc since you dont like your blizzard sorc anymore.

And if you screw up on a skill(which after playing diablo 2 since release i have yet to do) then either you care enough to make a char again or you dont. Of course we dont know if its going to be in the game or if its going to have a limit.

If i had a choice of respec or not that would be fair to everyone. It would be 1 respec per char and you had to do some quest to get it that was fairly hard.

[In the name of Zod]

Respec'ing is a failed idea. Its taking the sharp edges of a game design facet which some people are becoming accustomed to having. Its a shallow idea, it doesn't contribute and no one should ever say that you shouldn't use it if its in the game. Its there to be used by everyone so everyone has a right to have a say. :alright:

[CaptainDingo]

I'm going to echo what's already been said: Titan Quest!

In Titan Quest, you had a skill tree similar to a Diablo 2 or WoW tree. It worked the same way.

The way the "respec" worked was you pay a sum of gold and choose a single point you want to take out. It's not a "total" respec unless you want it to be. The catch is, for every individual point you take out, the price in gold gets exponentially higher.

I think this is the perfect respec system, because it gradually gets insanely difficult to respec, which means it encourages trying new things early, while allowing fine-tuning-only later (unless you're really, really, really rich somehow, in which case you won't be for long).

Oh, and also, respeccing is important to me after I made a Necromancer that couldn't beat the game. You want a tough skeleton army, and want to play your own way? Well screw you, because Diablo will nova all your skeletons and kill them in one hit. You can't win the fight and you must start a new character.

THAT was ridiculous.

[Rcuhljr]

It's impossible to say without know how skills work, what respeccing entails, and what limits are placed on it. If it's a once a character change that's not a complete role reversal I doubt it's going to bother anyone.

Something I'd really like to see is a progressive respec, where you set altered targets for stats/skills, and exp you gain goes towards those changes. (say you want to lower your energy by 15 and move it into vitality, as you kill points would slowly move, or every quarter levels worth of experience one skill point gets freed out of a skill you have marked to unlearn). No idea how it'd actually play out but I'd like to toy around with it.

[StevenBrouwer]

Man I just don't know. Neither solution is satisfying to me. I think that you should get a forced respec after 30 hours of play maybe. And you could simply take your old build again, but if you were somehow unhappy you could changes things. I think it would work. And something should stop the time when afking

[saint_of_killers]

So there will be respecs in D3, as Flux (?) confirmed.


link please? I'm too lazy to research it myself.

[psykeman420]

wow I can't beileve how rabid people get when they hear about a feature like this, it just boggles my mind.

Okay let me get this straight the main three arguements against respecing are as follows:

Allows for copycatting a "hard earned" build

Takes away from replay value

Makes the game easy by allowing on-the-fly changes

Let me throw my own 2 cents that won't matter to anyone who disagrees with respecs anyway :P

Copycatting -

Okay no build is sacred in any game, if it is good people are going to find out people are going to copy it. Whether they can do that in a few days/weeks or a couple of minutes, they could still do it.

Replay Value -

This one boggles my mind, while I loved Diablo 2 dearly one of the things that drove me to madness was learning to play it first of all and not realizing that I didn't need a ton of STR, being level 78 or so, not knowing about rushes and cow leveling (which most people did so how is that really adding replay if you're just flying through the content to get done quicker?) and other such things. I'd worked on my character hard to find out it was utter crap. Now having spent many hours on it I felt disheaterned when I had to scrap it and start over.

It wasn't "fun" to have to start over because I didn't know any better, it sucked. I don't see how this could be fun for anyone to be honest. Even worse was the massive changes that patches brougth especially 1.10. Oh great now my character I geared up and leveled and learned how to play is complete crap, JUST what I always wanted a useless waste of space that I spent alot of time on. Hooray!

With this particular case I have to say if you want to level a new character, do it, if you want to respec, do that. I don't think it is reasonable for someone who does enjoy releveling a character to make someone who doesn't have to.

Easy Mode -

Okay with an on the fly change system this is an arguement I agree with. Though even Guild Wars forced you to go to town first before you could switch your skills. With GW the most fun I had was creating and playing around with new builds and the shear depth of the skill system made it a blast. I doubt D3 will have something like that however and I don't think for a second that releveling in GW's system would be logical at all but this isn't GW so moving on.

I beileve that there should be a fee and/or quest for respecing and a limitation per day/hour whatever so you can't just flip builds to suit the upcoming battle. I also think you should have to be at a town or maybe even on the battle.net lobby area. (Wouldnt an interactive Lobby be cool!)


Also I think no respecing in Hardcore is VERY acceptable, and perhaps Ladder modes (if they will be introduced) as well. This would give areas for both people to play.

I favor respecing because I like to experiment with new characters but I don't enjoy having to start off from level 1 to do so. It just isn't fun for me and a game should be fun, first and foremost.

Challenging areas like hardcore and ladder mode however are competitions and should defitnaly NOT have them. I think this would be a suitable means to keeping both parties happy.

On ladder mode here would be a cool option, the season ends and you get a choice, back to level 1 w/ no gear or convert to normal mode. I dunno maybe that is a bit silly and wasted dev time but it is an idea.

[jrichard]

It doesn't have to be complicated. Allow limitless respecs, they just cost a full level. If you were 90, welcome to the beginning of level 89. Simple, elegant and it scales with levels. Respeccing at level 30 wouldn't be anything compared to respeccing at 90 as far as getting back to where you were is involved. So go ahead and fulfill the promise of respeccing to kill a certain boss and then speccing back, you lose 2 levels for doing it.

[Nimbostratus]

It doesn't have to be complicated. Allow limitless respecs, they just cost a full level. If you were 90, welcome to the beginning of level 89. Simple, elegant and it scales with levels. Respeccing at level 30 wouldn't be anything compared to respeccing at 90 as far as getting back to where you were is involved. So go ahead and fulfill the promise of respeccing to kill a certain boss and then speccing back, you lose 2 levels for doing it.

How the heck did nobody think of this earlier? That sounds like a great solution.

[Kiroptus]

I dont think its a good solution. Lvling was never a problem in Diablo.

I still think that Titan Quest way is still the best choice.

[YSM]

The Diablo franchise is fast-paced and it's not part of the MMORPG generation, but the ARPG genre; ergo there's no need for a respecialization system and it's inherent flaws.

[stillman]

Diablo is clearly designed for starting over at lev 1. The game is so fast paced and easy in normal mode, you can just tell Blizzard wants us to have to rebuild chrs to perfect them. If you don't think it's fun to start from lev 1 and work your way up to something awesome, then you have to ask, is this game really for you?

Plus there has to be SOMETHING for the top elite players to work on. For those players, this involves remaking a character and this time placing every point into the stats "properly" in order to gain chr perfection in the player's mind. I agree with all those in this thread who have said they made many zons (for example) until they finally obtained their beloved most perfect zon who could reach those extremely high levels. This is a core value of the game.

My own story: I have 2 lev 96 bowazons and one lev 95 bowazon, a few lev 80's. All have very similar builds, and I'm not showing off here because the trend has moved to javazons. I love the bowazon and it took me a few years to figgure out how to get her into that perfect glass cannon build. This is not foolishness to invest so much time into one build. I got the chr of my dreams. I'd like for this achievment to be for those who really do invest that much time into the goal. It shouldn't be so easy to tinker with your build (i.e. respecing) or players are really losing something great about the game.

[Swiffer]

I think it is a good idea, though obviously unlimited respecs a game like WoW provides would not be the way to go.

I will only speak for myself, but my life is alot different now than it was back when D2 came out. Back then, if i had a level 60 character that was essentially destroyed thanks to skill changes, i had more than enough time to wipe and start over.

These days, i have alot less time to play. Im out of school, i work full time job, got a girl friend, other friends and family all demand alot more time than they used to. If i put in alot of hours to a character and it essentially gets destroyed due to skill changes, that is alot of time down the tube, and it will take a long time for me to get another character back up to that level.

I think limited respecs is absolutely ideal (eg 3, one for finishing each difficulty level). You still cannot just switch around whenever you feel like, but you do have the breathing room to alter your build in case a skill gets nerfed into the ground or you get to nightmare and find your play style simply isn't working and needs to change (lets face it, you can finish Normal Difficulty D2 without spending any skill points at all).

I never could understand why there was no option to change even a limited number of skills in D2, but since i had alot more time, it never bothered me to relevel.

[voraginous]

I agree with the many others who say limited respecs: 1 per difficulty level, with maybe a bonus respec after each huge balance patch--i.e. every time they nerf a skill into the ground. Then again having to start from scratch after a new balance patch is part of the fun. :) hmmm

[stillman]

There seems to be 2 mind sets. Those in favor of major respecs want it all and they want it all NOW, and they don't want to work long and hard to get it.

Those who are anti-respec want there to be special rights for those who have invested the long hours into mastering the game, they want to be forced to put in more hours to attain a perfected build. They want this challenge of having to start over and build up and make a sacrifice to get what they want.

I truley believe RPGs should and do cater to the latter. RPGs are all about spending a whole lot of time to become the best.

Swiffer, I understand what you're saying about having full time work and other things going on in your life. But here's the thing (and take no offense): I don't WANT you to have the chr of your dreams. I don't WANT you to be successful in D3. I want your chrs to be stuck down there at lev 40 with people who don't know what they're doing. I'm sorry, but you should not have the same experience and oportunities that I have becasue I have invested so much more of myself into the game. I want you to have the funnnest possible time in D3 without ever coming close to what my chr can do. I hope you only manage to beat normal mode and then get faced with the tough challenges leaving you stuck. If you want to advance, you have to put in the hours my friend.

Now that all sounds pretty harsh but this is the important part: I DON'T have any relationships. You have something in real life that I don't have. In return, I've got a bunch of toons that are really impressive. Also, I worked very hard full time for a year and a half to save up money for these long non-work periods when I can play Diablo. My hard earned money dissovles in rent/student loan payments while I play. I don't want you to surpass my performance if your money is going into your familiy.

There is also a 3rd mindset of those who wouldn't mind a small bit of respecing for mistakes, patches, nerfing etc. I'm cool with that. They hinted at the possibility of respecing in d3, so I hope that's as far as they take it.

Edit: By the way, if they nerf a skill you had, then you deserve to have that chr ruined becasue you had a WAY TOO EASY time leveling that chr. Such is the cost for taking the most damaging, easiest skill. They're going to nerf it and you shoudl have to remake.

[Swiffer]

Swiffer, I understand what you're saying about having full time work and other things going on in your life. But here's the thing (and take no offense): I don't WANT you to have the chr of your dreams. I don't WANT you to be successful in D3.

Not offence taken, but i am glad game developers do not share your mindset. This is the exact mindset that even the WoW developers are moving away from ie rewarding time spent exclusivly. Everybody, no matter how much they play, deserves to enjoy the game without getting shafted by the developers.


I want your chrs to be stuck down there at lev 40 with people who don't know what they're doing. I'm sorry, but you should not have the same experience and oportunities that I have becasue I have invested so much more of myself into the game.

This is laughable. Playing more does not automatically make you better, nor does it automatically mean you understand the game better. In the context of diablo, it is especially ludicrous, since everything can be experienced in single player anyway. This thinking has nothing to do with the threads topic.


I want you to have the funnnest possible time in D3 without ever coming close to what my chr can do. I hope you only manage to beat normal mode and then get faced with the tough challenges leaving you stuck. If you want to advance, you have to put in the hours my friend.

Blizzard have never shared this thinking in their games (Vanilla WoW the exception, and they are moving far, far away from it now). Time spent has never been a barrier. The person playing 5 hours a week can still get through hell difficulty. It takes longer than someone who plays obsessively, but its never a barrier like you want it to be.



Now that all sounds pretty harsh but this is the important part: I DON'T have any relationships. You have something in real life that I don't have. In return, I've got a bunch of toons that are really impressive. Also, I worked very hard full time for a year and a half to save up money for these long non-work periods when I can play Diablo. My hard earned money dissovles in rent/student loan payments while I play. I don't want you to surpass my performance if your money is going into your familiy.

So i should never be able to reach the same level of power with my character simply because i do not play as often?

This kind of thinking has caused so many flame wars on the WoW forums, and is the root of the casual vs hardcore debate.

No. Wrong. It should take a more casual player longer to reach the same point, but what you are talking about is nothing more than exclusion, which is a terrible wall to put infront of players, and is detrimental to the player base in the long wrong.

[Hrus]

Actually, I am on stillman's side and I understand him. You want to be pride on your character, but where is the pride when everyone can have the exact skill placement as you in a second? In Diablo - all "noobs" could aquire dupes and hacks easily - all of them can have enigmas and infinities - but a lot of them have screwed skill-point/stat point placement.. The last advantage will be gone and all you will see on BNet will be exactly same equipped, exactly same sill-wise characters doing exactly same damage.

[YSM]

So i should never be able to reach the same level of power with my character simply because i do not play as often?

Why is that so hard for you to understand? Your position is completely illogical.

More time equals more determination and work (granted, you're doing something productive); ergo someone who spends more time playing Diablo III should have some kind of advantage over someone who doesn't play as much. In all seriousness, I'm kind of freaked out that you don't understand that concept. Not only should it apply to Diablo III, but it also applies in the real world.

[Approon]

Just my own opinion on this.

I played Titan Quest and yes they have respecs and you know what i became bored within a month or so, why?

Simple, because i could respec almost to infinty in each tree, money for respec limits itself after a while. Even then you got to mix different tree to create more variation.

To enhance my point i will ask how proud you will be of your character if you have the possibilites to turn him into a completely another type character. I would feel sorry for the character being treated like a bag of ****. Honestly i feeling alot more proud of my character if i know that everything is set in stone and ive completed the game by using my characters weaknesses aswell, and not just "hey ill go to town pay a fee so i can handle this mob better". More like "this mob is to hard probably i would need to hunt some more in the lower level areas and gather some better equipment". Now i can feel proud that i defeated the mob, and felt that i cheated death.

No no no to respec.

[Swiffer]

Why is that so hard for you to understand? Your position is completely illogical.

More time equals more determination and work (granted, you're doing something productive); ergo someone who spends more time playing Diablo III should have some kind of advantage over someone who doesn't play as much. In all seriousness, I'm kind of freaked out that you don't understand that concept. Not only should it apply to Diablo III, but it also applies in the real world.

If he plays 30 hours a week and i play 10, you are telling me what it takes him a month to attain should not be attainable by me in 3 months?

You are completely misunderstanding where my argument is coming from. Time == reward yes, but how quick you put the time in should make no difference. If it takes him a week to, say (for example), finish all 3 difficulty levels, i should similarly be able to attain the same, just in a longer time frame.

This is the angle i am arguing. This is not an MMO. There is no raiding in this type of game. Those that play more often will reach each goal first for sure, and i am not arguing against that, but you should not be excluded from anything purely because you cannot dedicate the same amount of hours per week as a more obsessive player, like stillman is arguing.

[bcos]

Hey stillman and YSM, let me know what you think of D3 when it comes out with respecs, because no matter how hard you argue, it will still be in, so stop whining.

Congrats.

[s4nder]

I'd say it's almost certainly out. What makes you think it's in? If they intend for the game to be even remotely similar to previous Diablos, they'll keep it out. I'll trust them on that for now.

Have you ever played Diablo 2? I keep seeing these people that think D3 will be an MMO and respecs are essential in those.

[Rashiminos]

This is laughable. Playing more does not automatically make you better, nor does it automatically mean you understand the game better. In the context of diablo, it is especially ludicrous, since everything can be experienced in single player anyway. This thinking has nothing to do with the threads topic.

Diablo Walks the Earth, Pandemonium?

[Gagge]

Respecs do exist in games like WoW because it takes ridiculously long time to level(As already stated by other posters). If D3 will be anything like the older installments, I can´t see that unlimited respecs will be in there. As a quest reward maybe, but when you can level so quickly, there´s no need for unlimited respecs.

And if Blizzard could start out with a decent balance in the game, with many viable builds for all classes, then respecs would be even less needed, since you would be unlucky/noobish to completely screw up your build. And change the game so that untwinkled fighters would be competitive, of course:) This is the biggest flaw in D2 right now, balance-wise.

However, since we know nothing about these things in the upcoming game, all discussion is right now moot.

[Rashiminos]

Not being geared enough to compete is not really a flaw..., you're up against people who have been playing for years...

[Brother Laz]

Hey stillman and YSM, let me know what you think of D3 when it comes out with respecs, because no matter how hard you argue, it will still be in, so stop whining.

Easy: respecs means no replay value, means €50 poorly spent, means it'll get torrented. Thanks, try again Blizzard.

Or it may in the long run turn out to be one of Blizzard's worse games and disappear immediately when World of Starcraft comes out, like how even the War3 expansion wasn't such a hot seller because people were disappointed with the base game.

[casserole]

I know this is a super long post, but I really think the people who are against respecs would benefit from reading it thoroughly. I hope that it brings some light as to how your desires may affect others.

I began to realize why some of the anti-respec posters feel the way they do a couple of days ago, but Stillman really spelled it out nicely for us. I am just going to call this group of people the anti-specs. Now, I don’t believe that everyone who is wary of respecs falls into this group…I’m not stereotyping. I am going to quote some posts and give my take on them. Again, I apologize for the wall of text, but it is the only way to really pinpoint an argument here.


There seems to be 2 mind sets. Those in favor of major respecs want it all and they want it all NOW, and they don't want to work long and hard to get it.
Do us all a favor and stop throwing everyone who is for respecs into the same category. I will hazard a guess that very few people (pro-respecs or anti-respecs) want that…this looks to just be an insult and flamebait to me.



Those who are anti-respec want there to be special rights for those who have invested the long hours into mastering the game, they want to be forced to put in more hours to attain a perfected build. They want this challenge of having to start over and build up and make a sacrifice to get what they want. .
There you go again with the stereotyping. Do you really think that there should be special rights for specific people? Common sense will tell you that players who have spent more time playing will (in general) have a greater knowledge of the game, perform better at both pve and pvp, and have a better hoard of items. Shouldn't that be enough? I am just going to have to disagree with you that anyone should want more than that.


RPGs are all about spending a whole lot of time to become the best.
Sanders made a incorrect comment like this earlier in the thread. I’d like to know how people come up with these authoritative statements as if they speak for everyone. I don’t play an RPG to “spend a whole lot of time to become the best”. I simply play to have a good time. I don’t care about becoming the best.


Now, I saved the best part for last. This is the part that really says what I thought was the real reason for this anti-respec group (again, not saying everyone who is against respecs is lumped in here). I am not going to quote it to save space, but it was a few paragraphs about what Stillman wants from Swiffer and I presume anyone like Swiffer. You can read Stillmans post on page 11 if you like.

Here’s the thing Stillman, why do you even care about someone else’s character to begin with? As long as Swiffer isn’t doing something that infringes upon your game, then I dare say that you have no right to worry about Swiffer.

This is the core of why so many of the anti-respecs arguments are not only wrong, but unfair. I have heard post after post about how respecs will ruin the game, how respecs go against what RPG’s/ARPG’s/Diablo has come to represent. The fact is, we all have our own ideas of how the game should be played. My desire to have voluntary respecs won’t change how anyone plays D3. Because of their voluntary nature, they won’t effect you if you don’t want them to. So in essence, my wish for respecs won’t affect any of your playstyles, which is how it should be.

Now, those who don’t want respecs because they feel it would ruin whatever idea they have of how the game should be played are doing the opposite and trying to affect how I play. Who are they to think they have that right? Why should I be forced to play any game in the style that some other player feels is the correct way to play? In all honesty, there is no such thing as a correct way to play. This wish to have others play the same way you do is borderline selfish, narcissistic, and immature. There is absolutely no reason for anyone to care how I play a game other than the developers of that game.

I just want to reiterate a point to really drive it home because I don’t think it has dawned on some of you. Wanting no respecs because it will take away from your idea of how the game should be played is wrong. You have no right to pigeon-hole the rest of us into playing the game in your style.

I am going to draw an analogy to this with a group of people play D2 (or at least used to). There are players out there who play in a way that they only use items that drop for them. They do not buy items from the merchants, gamble items, or pass them down from another character. They feel that this is the truest way to play D2. I have nothing against their play style and I hope that it brings them many hours of enjoyment in the game. It would be wrong though for those people to expect the rest of us to play in that style. Imagine the uproar if Blizzard announced that this playstyle was going to be used and took away all those merchants and started to bind items to a character. My guess is the vast majority of players would be pretty pissed. Now, I know that scenario will never happen, but how many of us here think that would be wrong to do?

Finally, I want to speak to those who say that they think boredom will set in quickly if respecs are allowed. I can’t say definitely that it will or won’t happen. I have never played D2 with a mod that allowed that. I never played WoW. I can tell you this though. I have been playing Guild Wars for 3+ years now and have several characters that old. Guild Wars allows you virtually unlimited respecs and I consider it a fantastic aspect to that game. Now GW and Diablo are not the same game so it is hard to compare apples to apples, but that’s the best I can do. I can say that because of the voluntary nature of respecs, people will only become bored if they allow themselves to. And don’t give me that excuse “if it’s in the game, people will use it even if they don’t want to”. Don’t punish me by leaving out a feature of the game to protect someone else who has little or no self-control.

[Thunderchild]

Well everything I am going to say is totally my personal opinion.

What bothered me in Wow was the fact that people almost forced you to be a certain type of character- Priests ended up being healers for instance, very few wanted to play with a shadow priest.
And as respec was so easy to obtain... all the characters ended up being the same... no diversity... the only diversity was visible at the level prior to the "end-game" characters.
Each had their own strategy as to how to get there- but everyone ended up going to the same build and place.

Individuality is rather important for me, and I think respec can ruin that.

Another thing... I think that a part of the Diablo experience -is- to mess a character up. I mean, isn't it part of the fun to play, learn and then start over?
How many hours have you spent playing while experimenting?
Sure, you will have a far easier time testing strategies... but reaching your goal faster simply means you will be less pleased when you obtain the final result I think.
Part of the experience -were- those long hours of trial and error.
If you remove them, aren't you removing an integral part of the game?

Maybe a good idea is to have a respec quest as was suggested... and that in every difficulty the rewards would be to respec a single skill tree...So that only people who defeated hell would have the ability to respec everything- and in decent intervals.

Just a thought anyways

[diabloreturns]

I think it depends greatly on how effective each skill is. If all the game skills are unique and effective; I don't see why people should be worried about respecing. However, I still think there should be a high cost in respecing if it is allowed.

[Omikron8]

Why is that so hard for you to understand? Your position is completely illogical.

More time equals more determination and work (granted, you're doing something productive); ergo someone who spends more time playing Diablo III should have some kind of advantage over someone who doesn't play as much. In all seriousness, I'm kind of freaked out that you don't understand that concept. Not only should it apply to Diablo III, but it also applies in the real world.

this is not the "real world"

this is a videogame

videogames are meant to be FUN, a word that many players and developers have forgotten these days

if i want to work hard i'll go to work instead of trying a videogame which costs me money

[Nimbostratus]

I think it depends greatly on how effective each skill is.

QFT. As long as the game stays away from the "crap skill -> garbage skill -> meh skill -> omgpwnage skill" type skill progression, there won't be a huge need for a major respec.

[stillman]

Fair enough Casserole. I do indeed categorize people, but it is only my opinion. Basically, I think d2 was ruined by these people who demanded teleporting for everyone so they don't have to do any work. The same laziness is behind duped runewords which makes the game too easy. If Blizzard just gives players everything they want like respecing to save time, the game will be a joke like d2 is now. I therefore have to be harsh and strongly oppose any view where players want things to be made easy so they don't have to "waste time" playing.

Much to your disappointment I will use the "if it's in the game people will use it" argument. Others brought it up and I believe it is a very true problem. Options aren't really as voluntary as we would like to believe.

For instance, one of the reasons customization of chr hair color, eyes, etc is not in the game MAY be because if it is there, people may feel compelled to use it and Blizzard wants us to get right into the action asap. ALL of us, no matter what. If you put ice cream on the shelves, people will buy and eat it, and suffer the consequences. With respecing, I think it will be madatory to use it if you wish to remain competitive, as mentioned in previous posts regarding dueling and plowing through the game faster by respecing for each boss, etc. Teenagers playing the game in particular can't be expected to have iron will or the "self control" you mentioned. People will use and exploit respecing if it is there. This was not my argument, but I think it is very valid.

My main arguments are with 2 issues. I don't think it should be an even playing field for everyone, and respecing imo sort of merges us all together at the end game since it saves time. I don't see why all players should experience the full scope of the game in one month just becasue they "want to" or they are casual players. To address Swiffer's latest post, if he can reach the end challenges of the game after putting in enough hours over more days, then that's fine by me. Nothing would be excluded in that case.

The 2nd issue I have is with the removal of romance from the game. Just having the option (and temptation) of transforming my chr's skills/stats into something else wrecks the atmosphere. It may as well be Star Trek: The Hologram Room. Having other people in the gameworld turning str into dex really does affect my experience in the gameworld. Well, it's not so much that other people's playing is affecting me, but rather the gameworld itself is ruined to begin with.

All of this has been covered and I don't think anyone has been converted by it, as is the case in a lot of threads. Maybe it all comes down to differences in taste. I don't want a party in my mouth where I enjoy all the flavors of a chr all at once. I want the long lasting feast that is Diablo.

Edit: Omikron8, for many of us "fun" is working hard and finally achieving our ultiamte goals. This is classic RPG fun. If you want to get everything out of the game without working very long, why not play a side scrolling action game? You get the whole package given to you in a few hours of playing. It seems you are defying the true essence of RPGs: long, long hours spent working on something.

[diabloreturns]

I also think Blizzard would come up with some skills that are both effective in pvp and pvm without the need to respec. I think in the coming months we will get a better idea of what works and what doesn't.

[stephan]

Here’s the thing Stillman, why do you even care about someone else’s character to begin with? As long as Swiffer isn’t doing something that infringes upon your game, then I dare say that you have no right to worry about Swiffer.

This is the core of why so many of the anti-respecs arguments are not only wrong, but unfair. I have heard post after post about how respecs will ruin the game, how respecs go against what RPG’s/ARPG’s/Diablo has come to represent. The fact is, we all have our own ideas of how the game should be played. My desire to have voluntary respecs won’t change how anyone plays D3. Because of their voluntary nature, they won’t effect you if you don’t want them to. So in essence, my wish for respecs won’t affect any of your playstyles, which is how it should be.
But this is nonsense, you play games by certain rules. Why force people to have a health bulb? Why not let have chars all the skills in the game at maximum potential right from the start? The fact that I want these things doesn't affect your gaming experience right? Why not have vendors that have all items at 0 cost, for all I care?

Respec is not anything else than a rule of a game you can be in favor of or against. You cannot argue that you don't want to be forced into rules, since you cannot play a game without them. In fact, a game is made by its rules. In other words, you don't give a reason for wanting respec other than that you want it (meaning you don't give any reason at all). It is not unfair that a game has rules!

The reason why I am against respec is because it potentially kills a strategical aspect of a game, which is developing your character in such a manner that it can deal sufficiently with any situation in the game. I don't want a play style where you can easily deal with one situation and then respec afterwards to deal easily with the next. And no, I can't ignore the possibility of respec when it's there anymore than I can play D2 Softcore with a D2 Hardcore mindset. It just doesn't work.

And it's not me caring about what someone else does with his characters, it's me caring about what the game actually becomes.

[5zigen]

It's probably been brought up already, but respecs SEVERELY change the experience of HC.

in terms of SC it's really just an asthetic decision, and I think having unlimited respecs is a bad one, but for HC it changes the game entirely imo and it should be approached with extreme caution or heavy limits.

[kirborg]

this isn't a mmorpg. everyone should be able to make characters the way they want without spending time making 5 alternative versions of one simple character. if you want to set yourself apart then spend your time hunting godlike equipment, which in my opinion is a far more fair way to keep the balance between casuals and hardcore players alive.

[s4nder]

I also want the game to be fun. Maybe I was exaggerating by saying games are meant to waste time. They're a rather pleasant way to spend time and offer lots of entertainment. I want to have fun when playing Diablo 3. I want to have fun in Diablo 3 even when it's five years old.

Respeccing will only allow me to have fun until I've created five characters - provided I'm interested in playing all classes - and thus made all the possibly hundreds of builds in that short timeframe. I still haven't tried many builds in Diablo 2 and I've played lots. It keeps drawing me back.

Diablo 3 won't be when if I create a Witch Doctor, I'll essentially have created all possible builds of it, all perfect in their skill distribution. Reroll anyway, you say, it doesn't have to affect you. Well, I'm not the type to shoot myself in the leg before a race to make it harder to win. I don't want to have to use respecs to stay competitive. I want to choose a path, one at a time, and see how it turns out. Learn from my mistakes and try again. I do not want other people to have a shortcut to the end, just like pro-respec people don't want it taken away from them. It's the journey that counts.

Limited respecs are fine by me. Correct a few mistakes or take another approach. Once, not every half an hour.

[Apocalypse]

i have never been a fan or respec in anygame, i remember when they allowed it for daoc, everyone wanted a hunter but they were hard to level and then owned pvp, then suddenly respec is allowed. now everyone builds a hunter based solely for pvm then when they hit 40 they respec to pure pvp. respec wont change cookie cutters or even how people make a char, eventually everyone does the same crap anyways.

in the end my real problem with respec is i lack the will power to make more than 1 barb if i can just constantly change skills whenever i wanna play around with a new skill. so to me anyway, it kills replay value

[5zigen]

I also want the game to be fun. Maybe I was exaggerating by saying games are meant to waste time. They're a rather pleasant way to spend time and offer lots of entertainment. I want to have fun when playing Diablo 3. I want to have fun in Diablo 3 even when it's five years old.

Respeccing will only allow me to have fun until I've created five characters - provided I'm interested in playing all classes - and thus made all the possibly hundreds of builds in that short timeframe. I still haven't tried many builds in Diablo 2 and I've played lots. It keeps drawing me back.

Diablo 3 won't be when if I create a Witch Doctor, I'll essentially have created all possible builds of it, all perfect in their skill distribution. Reroll anyway, you say, it doesn't have to affect you. Well, I'm not the type to shoot myself in the leg before a race to make it harder to win. I don't want to have to use respecs to stay competitive. I want to choose a path, one at a time, and see how it turns out. Learn from my mistakes and try again. I do not want other people to have a shortcut to the end, just like pro-respec people don't want it taken away from them. It's the journey that counts.

Limited respecs are fine by me. Correct a few mistakes or take another approach. Once, not every half an hour.

I agree with most of what you said, but it should be noted that there are MANY ways to include respecs that would actually be pretty cool in terms of keeping the replayability alive.

For example, what if you could rearrange the way you spent your last level (skill / stats) at a significant cost. That cost being: 1 level worth of exp. So if you want to redo your character from the start it will be virtually the same as rolling a twink, but it still offers alot more freedom in that you dont have to reroll your character entirely because you mispent 2 or 3 skills and 15 stat points.

Just trying to say, there are a lot of ways respecs could be implemented, I just hope if they DO chose to implement respecs, they implement them in such a way that it's a significant sacrifice to actually use them.

[casserole]

And it's not me caring about what someone else does with his characters, it's me caring about what the game actually becomes.
Exactly, I believe you are saying that you're worried about how the game would end up being played. But here's the kicker, it isn't up to you to decide how the game should be played by me. As long as I don't impact your gaming experience in a negative way, you shouldn't care what I do.

You could have every one of those abilities you listed, and I can honestly say it would not matter to me. That is because, it truly won't impact my game in any way. I don't know, maybe I'm just more secure with myself than most and don't feel the need to compare myself to others. I know that there will always be better players than me. I know that there will always be wealthier players than me. I'm not taking a shot at you Stephan, I am just speaking on behalf of myself.


Respec is not anything else than a rule of a game you can be in favor of or against. You cannot argue that you don't want to be forced into rules, since you cannot play a game without them. In fact, a game is made by its rules. In other words, you don't give a reason for wanting respec other than that you want it (meaning you don't give any reason at all). It is not unfair that a game has rules!

I think feature or aspect is a better description of respecs than rule, so I will use those terms instead here. I have never claimed that it is unfair that a game has rules/aspects/features...I hope you aren't insinuating that. I am saying do not try and base those rules/aspects/features on your vision of how the game should be played, because your vision isn't the only valid one.

I actually did mention a reason for wanting respecs back in my first post on page 2. To sum it up, I like respecs because they allow me greater flexibility and options to play game. For instance, I create a lightning sorceress and level her up to 75 on my way to finishing up hell difficulty. A friend of mine asks me to join his lightning sorc for clearing some area in hell. With respecs, I can change my sorc to fire and not worry about us having redundant setups.


Respeccing will only allow me to have fun until I've created five characters - provided I'm interested in playing all classes - and thus made all the possibly hundreds of builds in that short timeframe. I still haven't tried many builds in Diablo 2 and I've played lots. It keeps drawing me back.

Diablo 3 won't be when if I create a Witch Doctor, I'll essentially have created all possible builds of it, all perfect in their skill distribution. Reroll anyway, you say, it doesn't have to affect you. Well, I'm not the type to shoot myself in the leg before a race to make it harder to win. I don't want to have to use respecs to stay competitive. I want to choose a path, one at a time, and see how it turns out. Learn from my mistakes and try again. I do not want other people to have a shortcut to the end, just like pro-respec people don't want it taken away from them. It's the journey that counts.

Limited respecs are fine by me. Correct a few mistakes or take another approach. Once, not every half an hour.

Again with the exaggerations. That 5 character limit is one that you will place on yourself, don't blame it on respecs. There is no reason you can't create 50 characters, unless you choose not to yourself.

As for staying competitive, I assume you're speaking of pvp. I'll use my analogy from page 12 to show you how that argument doesn't stand up. If you'll recall, I referred to a group of people that like to play using only items they find. I think you are saying that your style of play (no respecs) would be at a disadvantage to my style of play (respecs) so you wouldn't be able to stay competitive. A player using that game style from page 12 could make the same claim about you that you are about me. They could say that them using only found items puts them at a disadvantage and therefore you shouldn't be allowed to use anything found from another character. Once again, none of these playing styles are wrong...but it isn't right to choose how someone else plays.

And the whole "I'll get tired of D3 faster if respecs are allowed" point came up again. I'm going to the analogy well once more for this one. By that argument, mods for single player should be outlawed too. I can go over to the Phrozen Keep and get a god mode that will essentially make me indestructible. If I were to do that, I'd probably grow bored with that character fast. Does this mean that we should not allow mods for single player? Are any of you willing to go over to the single player forum and tell them they can't use mods anymore because some people might grow tired of the game faster from the mods?

Finally, I am going to do something that I don't think anyone has done yet. I will give an example of something positive respecs can do for Blizzard. Lets say Blizzard put out a new patch for D2 that allowed respecs in it. Half of the players decided to use it and as a result, those half reduced the number of characters they use by 1/3. This would result in a 17% decrease in the number of toons that Bnet had to manage. Now I know that server space is getting cheaper every day and that some of the character data is stored on our own rigs. No one can deny though that Blizzard would likely experience a cost savings from this, however small. I'm all for D3 being more profitable for Blizzard, this will help to insure that we can look forward to a D4 sometime around 2019.

Anyhow, I think I've pretty much shot down any arguments against respecs. If someone comes up with a NEW one that isn't some variation of "I don't like the idea of respecs" then I'd like to hear it. I do hope that no one is harboring any hard feelings from these arguments. We're all here for the same reason, we love this franchise and we're all excited about the upcoming new chapter.

[Felix]

Making new chars is what it's all about. Respecs forces the game to "stretch" the longevity of a few chars, automatically into some form of endless endgame grind to keep them occupied.

No respecs and that should be a rule.

[Rashiminos]

Respeccing is an expedient...

Duping, gold/item-buying, and hacks are other expedients...

They all affect the game's community...

[casserole]

They all affect the game's community...

Care to elaborate on how respecs affect the community instead of some vague statement? And please be specific.

Edit - And please keep in mind that if you use the D2 community as an example, then you are stating an opinion of how respecs would affect it since respecs don't actually exist in D2.

[Felix]

Read my post.

[Mivo]

I like respecs, if they come at a meaningful cost. In D2, I would often not use any skill or stat points out of "fear" that I'd mess up my character, and so I slugged along. Sure, I eventually got more experienced and knew what I wanted, and then we got synergies (and still most played to level 30 without using any skills), but with respecs I would probably have had more fun, at least early on. The way it was done in Titan Quest and WoW works well. I'd still have different builds in the 80s or 90s (if 99 is the cap), but I would not mess up any characters. Granted, I played mostly HC and am likely to do the same in D3, but a wrongly placed skill point can really mess up how you feel about a character. :)

So, I'm for a sensitive respec system. People who don't like it don't have to respec. I prefer flexibility.

[Rashiminos]

Care to elaborate on how respecs affect the community instead of some vague statement? And please be specific.

Edit - And please keep in mind that if you use the D2 community as an example, then you are stating an opinion of how respecs would affect it since respecs don't actually exist in D2.

WoW and goldfarming for respec costs..., HGL and respec tokens being traded for palladium

[casserole]

Read my post.

Felix, I read your post. You claim "Making new chars is what it's all about." That may be what it is all about for you, but it isn't what it is all about for others. You're forcing your playstyle on the rest of us with that statement.

Edit - actually, I'm done shooting down these same arguments over and over again. Let's get some fresh blood in here with some new ideas.

[Rashiminos]

Edit - actually, I'm done shooting down these same arguments over and over again. Let's get some fresh blood in here with some new ideas.

You aren't shooting down anything. You're exposing your ego however.

[Apocalypse]

love it when people push thier opinions like they are facts, kinda like casserole

[Kaeros]

A few things:

I really do believe one of the core gameplay mechanics in DII is the lack of respeccing, because it forces the player -- from the very beginning -- to start thinking about what their character is going to specialize in. Whether or not that's your desired method of gameplay, it's what Diablo is: Choices matter.

That said, NO option to fix mistakes is an archaic, outdated system now that we're in 2008 and games have become exceedingly casual. So, I propose that there should be a quest somewhere along the storyline that rewards you with a "Re-spec Scroll" of sorts. One for Normal, one for Nightmare, and one for Hell. If you need more than three chances to "get it right", than dare I say it.. you need to cut your losses and start over.

Secondly, these Scrolls should be one of the few untradeable items in the game, meant for that character only.

Thirdly, these Scrolls should be issued whenever huge balance changes take place, for obvious reasons. However, a two-week timer should be placed on them, so players that don't need them for that patch can't hoard them to use whenever.

[5zigen]

Casserole, your post has a lot of fallacies.


Exactly, I believe you are saying that you're worried about how the game would end up being played. But here's the kicker, it isn't up to you to decide how the game should be played by me. As long as I don't impact your gaming experience in a negative way, you shouldn't care what I do.

You could have every one of those abilities you listed, and I can honestly say it would not matter to me. That is because, it truly won't impact my game in any way. I don't know, maybe I'm just more secure with myself than most and don't feel the need to compare myself to others. I know that there will always be better players than me. I know that there will always be wealthier players than me. I'm not taking a shot at you Stephan, I am just speaking on behalf of myself.

Actually, unless you were playing offline, it would potentially affect you when characters that have 100x your characters power enters the game. (for example, they enter the game and clear the boss that you were working your way to before you could get close to him, thus halting your progress) So, it would affect you unless you are taking special precautions to not play with other people.





I think feature or aspect is a better description of respecs than rule, so I will use those terms instead here. I have never claimed that it is unfair that a game has rules/aspects/features...I hope you aren't insinuating that. I am saying do not try and base those rules/aspects/features on your vision of how the game should be played, because your vision isn't the only valid one.


It is a feature or an aspect, but it's also a rule if you want to stay competitive. People will always be making the game more challenging for themselves, however, respecs take a lot of the accomplishments out of the game and trivialize a lot of the challenges the game would have in the absence of respecs.




I actually did mention a reason for wanting respecs back in my first post on page 2. To sum it up, I like respecs because they allow me greater flexibility and options to play game. For instance, I create a lightning sorceress and level her up to 75 on my way to finishing up hell difficulty. A friend of mine asks me to join his lightning sorc for clearing some area in hell. With respecs, I can change my sorc to fire and not worry about us having redundant setups.

This idea, while somewhat true, in general contradicts your next point.



Again with the exaggerations. That 5 character limit is one that you will place on yourself, don't blame it on respecs. There is no reason you can't create 50 characters, unless you choose not to yourself.

Right, but if there are unlimited respecs like you seem to be proposing (with your previous point) there will be no real reason to make more than one of every character. Sure you can still do it, but respecs take the accomplishment away from leveling a difficult build and it also takes out one of the main reasons for making multiple characters. Instead of leveling a character to try and make something more effective, just respec and you're done. No matter how you look at it, there's no point in having more than 5 characters if there are unlimited respecs.



As for staying competitive, I assume you're speaking of pvp. I'll use my analogy from page 12 to show you how that argument doesn't stand up. If you'll recall, I referred to a group of people that like to play using only items they find. I think you are saying that your style of play (no respecs) would be at a disadvantage to my style of play (respecs) so you wouldn't be able to stay competitive. A player using that game style from page 12 could make the same claim about you that you are about me. They could say that them using only found items puts them at a disadvantage and therefore you shouldn't be allowed to use anything found from another character. Once again, none of these playing styles are wrong...but it isn't right to choose how someone else plays.

I dont know if you perhaps played a different D2 than me, but there was a competitive ladder in d2. That had nothing to do with pvp. Not using respecs in light of that puts you at a severe disadvantage and it's not a pvp aspect of the game.

Additionally, Your former analogy was not analogous because you're talking about a playstyle vs a game rule.




And the whole "I'll get tired of D3 faster if respecs are allowed" point came up again. I'm going to the analogy well once more for this one. By that argument, mods for single player should be outlawed too. I can go over to the Phrozen Keep and get a god mode that will essentially make me indestructible. If I were to do that, I'd probably grow bored with that character fast. Does this mean that we should not allow mods for single player? Are any of you willing to go over to the single player forum and tell them they can't use mods anymore because some people might grow tired of the game faster from the mods?

Reality check? Those mods are banned on battle.net. That is another bad analogy. We're not generally talking about single player, because it's fairly easy to get a mod that would allow you to respec in single player, or get unlimited skill points or stat points or whatever you want. But on Battle.net, where you are in direct or indirect competition with others it makes a difference and potentially a huge difference.




Finally, I am going to do something that I don't think anyone has done yet. I will give an example of something positive respecs can do for Blizzard. Lets say Blizzard put out a new patch for D2 that allowed respecs in it. Half of the players decided to use it and as a result, those half reduced the number of characters they use by 1/3. This would result in a 17% decrease in the number of toons that Bnet had to manage. Now I know that server space is getting cheaper every day and that some of the character data is stored on our own rigs. No one can deny though that Blizzard would likely experience a cost savings from this, however small. I'm all for D3 being more profitable for Blizzard, this will help to insure that we can look forward to a D4 sometime around 2019.

So again you're contradicting your arguments that it doesn't hurt the replayability of the game. Yeah people would drop their characters because they wouldnt need as many, they would just need gearsets. And to further 'shoot down' your argument, most people have at least 2 mules per character they actually play + other characters with full sets of gear. If they just deleted the characters they play less, they would still need to hold onto the sets of gear, which would mean a decreased number of characters played, but an increase in the number of character mules.




Anyhow, I think I've pretty much shot down any arguments against respecs. If someone comes up with a NEW one that isn't some variation of "I don't like the idea of respecs" then I'd like to hear it. I do hope that no one is harboring any hard feelings from these arguments. We're all here for the same reason, we love this franchise and we're all excited about the upcoming new chapter.

There are many valid arguments for and against respecs. Unfortunately, you have not only failed to bring up any of the good arguments for respecs, but you've contradicted yourself in your counterarguments.

Also declaring yourself the winner of an argument is VERY poor form, it's not only rude but also somewhat insulting.

[Felix]

Felix, I read your post. You claim "Making new chars is what it's all about." That may be what it is all about for you, but it isn't what it is all about for others. You're forcing your playstyle on the rest of us with that statement.

Edit - actually, I'm done shooting down these same arguments over and over again. Let's get some fresh blood in here with some new ideas.

yes, please stop ending every of your posts with declaring your victory, because you very thickly try to push your way down upon the rest, and you don't get the consequences of respecs anyway...

Let me give an example, I'm playing ladder and I made a sorc to MF, then I made a frenzy barb to kill Diablo Clone. Then I remade my sorc because I could save stat points now. Old one becomes a mule with Hell access. I'm getting rich by now so I then take on the task of a Whirl PvP barb.

Now when I log in I can choose what I want straight of the bat, help ppl through act 2 with my fun frenzier, or PvP with my super barb, I just have to click.

If the game was adjusted for respecs, I now want to PvP, but my barb is frenzy. Respecs are tedious, I need to mule stuff now, I have to drag gear back and forth, fill an whole inventory up with charms, and charms I need to store somewhere when im frenzy specced. I need to reclick the whole skill setup. And lastly and most surely to make it "fair" I prolly have to be punished with something timeconsuming or expensive for respeccing.

So it's not about how YOU play, it's about how the game plays. Your asset is no longer your account, but boiled down to a single char, which then is bound up with tedious chores to be as versatile as the account was beforehand.

[Rashiminos]

*Addresses thread generally*

So, you want respecs in D3 huh?
Do you want to be able to reclass and switch your level 80 barb to a level 80 witch doctor?
Do you want to bother leveling at all? Why not start at level 80 or 99 or w/e?
Do you want to find phat lewt?
Do you want to spend time just fighting regular monsters, or are you a bosses-only kind of person?
Do you not have enough time to repeatedly work at a challenging and demanding task?
Would you use hacks/game features to remove tedium?
Should you be playing a 2D fighting game instead?

[Apocalypse]

*Addresses thread generally*

So, you want respecs in D3 huh?
Do you want to be able to reclass and switch your level 80 barb to a level 80 witch doctor?
Do you want to bother leveling at all? Why not start at level 80 or 99 or w/e?
Do you want to find phat lewt?
Do you want to spend time just fighting regular monsters, or are you a bosses-only kind of person?
Do you not have enough time to repeatedly work at a challenging and demanding task?
Would you use hacks/game features to remove tedium?
Should you be playing a 2D fighting game instead?

thats what i was gonna say, why bother leveling at all? just give everyone 100 skill points or whatever, bunch of stat points and tell them have fun make a char and do whatever. you dont like how you build him? fine do it again who cares

[Felix]

If we get respecs, we will get dead ghosttowns too. Need to get through act 2 Nightmare? Have fun soloing because there is noone rolling new chars who needs to get through there too. Everyone will be in endgame 95% of the time. And lets face it, even for the flagship WoW endgame is a pretty slowmoving and little satisfying place to be, all the time.

Will we have a main and maybe and alt too? If they need to stretch endgame to infinity to entertain the masses who have nothing to do, then only a main can progress in it. Rest will be alts. But we can respec our main of course...

All we need now is soulbound items and we will have a complete lockdown of DIII.

[sectoid]

Well, I just want to add that I don't play many builds, usually just 1-3 classes (only 1st build on each), because I don't have that much time to play.

EVEN THEN, I don't like respecs. Planning for me is a great thing, I like to spend time reading the skill descriptions and thinking if I should go for this or that at the end. It's fun and if you take that away, you're just taking one of the challenges away. And games are nothing more than a set of challenges!

I do not want to be troll but I think what makes Blizzard games better than most is that they're not generic. There's a lot of effort and details put to them. In generic games(specially MMO's) you generally can have everything very easily, so you can be happy fast and talk to your friends about how the game is "awesome", because you FEEL awesomeness everywhere the first time you see things. Then when you advance or when you replay, it's everything repeated, you've already seen everything there's to see, improved everything that could be improved. So then I ask the people that favor respecs:

Why do you expect a Blizzard game to be too easy, just like generic ones? Why do you want to "arcade" them more? Aren't you full of this type of stuff in most other games?

As I said, I hope these questions doesn't look like a troll's... I'm not trying to say people that like easier/generic and similar games everywhere are bad / worse than me or anything, I mean them with every respect.

[Mivo]

Just play HC if you are so strongly opposed to respecs. ;) WoW's problem with ghost towns and low level areas is different and not related to the ability to respec (respeccing in WoW leaves you with the items for your old spec). It is because of how much time/grinding developing just one character takes, and because of the soulbound items (a horrible idea).

Even with respeccing, I'd still want different builds on different characters. D2 was about the items more than about making a ton of characters -- few people played past 90 because it got really slow and tedious. I certainly rather made ten level 90s than one level 99 toon.

But anyway, the suggested "respec scrolls" should be a good compromise. One per difficulty level, one per major skill balancing. That should address the issues brought up by both sides.

[Felix]

Just play HC if you are so strongly opposed to respecs. ;) WoW's problem with ghost towns and low level areas is different and not related to the ability to respec (respeccing in WoW leaves you with the items for your old spec). It is because of how much time/grinding developing just one character takes, and because of the soulbound items (a horrible idea).

Even with respeccing, I'd still want different builds on different characters. D2 was about the items more than about making a ton of characters -- few people played past 90 because it got really slow and tedious. I certainly rather made ten level 90s than one level 99 toon.

But anyway, the suggested "respec scrolls" should be a good compromise. One per difficulty level, one per major skill balancing. That should address the issues brought up by both sides.

I can understand your point Mivo, but again it boils down to wether it's a gameplay that invites to replay it, often and with rushes if you like, with decked out chars in parties or just ironman, to each his own. Or wether it's a gameplay that lets you get to the end, and then that's it. Respeccing will force the latter upon the players, and it will see much less players going through the game, i.e. ghost acts and ghost difficulties.

So I can just make 2 barbs, one for each, yes of course, in DII. But in WoW I can't, and thats exactly the point, what game is it gonna be basically. Do you own an account or do you own a main, respeccing widely demands one or the other.

If the games tries to cater to endgame to keep people more occupied then you wont end up with 10 level 90's. DII is not a forever game storywise, but it has more life in it than WoW does, because of the constant character fluxuation.

[sectoid]

Mivo, I think if you go for hardcore you should mean it... if not, it's not HARDcore at all!!!

Even if something like the respec scrolls went through, I really think HC chars should not have access to them!

[Mivo]

Well, I just think that if we got respec scrolls, it would still be up to the player whether or not they use them. Did you use the imbues after your first year with the game? I rarely did anymore. When I stopped playing D2 a lot (around 2006), most people were rushing their characters to 30, 40 or higher, or getting rushed. I never let anyone rush me, because it wasn't my style (I did slug through normal difficulty without using any skills on some chars, though, and it wasn't fun). I also only messed up one character (accidental click on a stats button), and that was more "emotional" than practical -- just made the character feel imperfect. :) So anyway, I don't see a danger in the ability to respec, but I understand the concerns, so I think a limited ability (like the scrolls) would make a good compromise. But either way, I'm likely to build many characters and play for years.

I'd see item muling and hand-me-downs as more dangerous, but they didn't do any damage in D2, and the soulbound items in D2 actually made me not to want to make alts.

[amusingtugboat]

I really hate the idea of respec and when i played WoW for awhile i didnt even care what my skills were cause i knew i could just respec. Thats why i hate it so much is because you dont have to be careful or be smart with your skills you can always change them later. As much as i hate the idea of respec if it was a small limit like 1-3 times total per char i would not mind but of course no respec would be best IMO.

[stephan]

Exactly, I believe you are saying that you're worried about how the game would end up being played. But here's the kicker, it isn't up to you to decide how the game should be played by me. As long as I don't impact your gaming experience in a negative way, you shouldn't care what I do.
Stop making yourself so important. I really don't care what you do. It simply IS influencing my gaming experience. Just like Softcore is not the same as Hardcore, a game with respec is simply not the same as a game without it. Yes you can play Softcore like it is Hardcore, and you can play without respec in a game with it, but it's not the same. Would you really argue that Hardcore mode is pointless in D2?


You could have every one of those abilities you listed, and I can honestly say it would not matter to me. That is because, it truly won't impact my game in any way. I don't know, maybe I'm just more secure with myself than most and don't feel the need to compare myself to others. I know that there will always be better players than me. I know that there will always be wealthier players than me. I'm not taking a shot at you Stephan, I am just speaking on behalf of myself.
But this does not have anything to do with it. I don't care about what you do personally, I care about the rules of the game. It's not about you.


I think feature or aspect is a better description of respecs than rule, so I will use those terms instead here. I have never claimed that it is unfair that a game has rules/aspects/features...I hope you aren't insinuating that. I am saying do not try and base those rules/aspects/features on your vision of how the game should be played, because your vision isn't the only valid one.
No, it is a simple rule in a game, not a feature. iPods have features, games have rules. It's a rule that changes (more like kills) an aspect of the game, namely character development. You cannot change definitions so that they fit you better.


I actually did mention a reason for wanting respecs back in my first post on page 2. To sum it up, I like respecs because they allow me greater flexibility and options to play game. For instance, I create a lightning sorceress and level her up to 75 on my way to finishing up hell difficulty. A friend of mine asks me to join his lightning sorc for clearing some area in hell. With respecs, I can change my sorc to fire and not worry about us having redundant setups.
Why can't you just both be lightning sorcs?


Anyhow, I think I've pretty much shot down any arguments against respecs.
You haven't shot anything down, you didn't adress any of my points to begin with.

I can accept a feuture where you are allowed to fix one or two mistakes, but not where you can turn a lightning sorc into a fire sorc.

[AbrielNei]

I have been quietly looking over this debate and from my point of view it is not going anywhere. There are a bunch of arguments for respec and a bunch against it. Like some of you already said - there is more than one valid point of view so I guess both sides have to be taken into consideration.

I would like to take a slightly different approach to this debate. Maybe find some other means of dealing with the issues of assigning/unassigning skill points so that both camps would be happy.

Small recap...
It seems to me that 99% of us here agree that full respecs should not be allowed. Some issues (as I see them and as were stated before) of full respec:
-changing the char build based on situation will lessen the challenges of some builds, sometimes drastically (for example: not playing a "late bloomer" build that is hard to level at first levels like it was intended but instead choosing some other build that is easier to play at first levels...or respecing for PvE/PvP based on situation)
-nullifying the consequence of choosing skills/stats. Another comparison with WoW (didn't play much so I could be wrong) - isn't there no stat point assigment? As far as I know you only get to assing skill points, stats get assigned automatically on levelup based on your class. And like someone said - WoW players can just put the points in any skills and respec later. Developers already said they want us in the action as soon as possible so I sure hope we do not get to the point of choosing a class (and maybe subclass) and thats it (all skill and stat points get automatically assigned based on our choice from the start of the game) on the pretense of getting into the action quickly!! I am sure (almost) nobody would like that. I for one would like more choices not less!

This leaves us with options of minor respecs or no respecs.
Why minor respecs?
a) accidental click on a stats/skill button
b) skill is not what you wished or understood
c) nerfed skill because of a patch

I think none of this are valid points to use respec. This is why:
a) this can be solved othervise with better user interface. For example: there could be some kind of confirmation button if you really wish to spend the point on that skill/stat. There could also be some kind of "undo" button that could for example retrieve your last spent point (or maybe 1 point for skill and 5 points for stats).
b) this can also be solved othervise. We could have delayed assignment of skills. For example: You get a new skill and want to try it out. Assign a point to it but you can still undo the change for a set period of time or char experience. Or even until you gain another level or until you choose to assign another point to the same skill. So basically you get an evaluation period of somekind.
c) I think this is not really a point where we would need to get a respec option in the first place. Developers decide how the game should be played and if they decide that some skill is overpowered than we have to live with our choices. Like someone said - if you used an overpowered skill then you had it easy up until the patch.

So in the end I am for no respec whatsoever. But if there really must be some respec I think the best idea was to limit it by quest, so you get 1 respec for each difficulty.
For those that say they don't have time to play again from the start there could even be a new mode, like "Sandbox" or "Arcade" or something and there you could respec freely (and maybe do even some other things that are now only available with hacks...gold, max level, items, invulnerability, whatever...).


Some perspective: I enjoyed D2 very much and I hope I can enjoy D3 even more. I do not consider myself as a hardcore player, I mostly played single player or LAN with my friends. Never had a char over 90, at most around 80. Over the years I played every class at least once, some even more times with different builds. I feel that the end game was much less exciting than the start, running over the same levels hundreds of times. I agree with all that say the road to victory is more exciting than the victory itself.

[Cronax]

I must admit I stopped reading this thread at page 9 or so, since it was getting awefully repetitive, but why is nobody realising that it's rediculously easy to level in D2? I am ofcourse referring to multiplayer, but when you can these days create a lvl 80 or so in less then a day, this is pretty much the same as getting respecs. The advantage of respecs is quite simply that you aren't forced to do it all over again just because you made a mistake, or want to try something different.

If it is rediculously easy to level up a new character then I agree, there's no reason for respecs, but if it really takes a proper amount of time to level up a character, then I see no reason at all not to include a respec at a cost.

Honestly though, can't we trust blizzard on this one? Up until recent patches in WoW the respeccing was not a trivial matter. In Diablo II, leveling at really high speeds is only possible by exploiting certain mechanics. Blizzard tends to go at it untill they get it right. Let's trust them to get it right and THEN start whining about it.

[edit]Oh and before anyone starts, I started playing Diablo II about half a year after release, bought the expansion at release, and played for around a year then, and have gone back to playing for a while at every patch after that. I've had most if not all flavors of all characters. If you dismiss me on credibility, I laugh at you.

[Sein Schatten]

I like respeccs. It is stupid to make high level characters obsolete because of a patch. I had to scratch my Tweaker sorc and go back to Kristova because of 1.6 (IIRC.). An exponentially respecc cost with decay is perfect for such occurances. :)

[Approon]

if something near respec makes it to the final game it should only work a while after setting the points or before a certain level, because its the same concept as Hardcore.

Why do we need hardcore? when we can delete our character in softcore if we die, it just wont happen. Its impossible to ignore respec if it exists as its not easy to delete a character in softcore because you died.

Anyway all im requiring is that the stronger and more complete your character gets no matter if you didnt do a single respec it should be really costly and impossible after certain levels. I dont want to be able (even if i wont do it) to respec my character to be a sneaky one hit killers from being a pure tank. The proud of my character would be gone and i would feel sad for my character because he would be treated like toilet paper "keep going with new skillsets until ive discovered all **** and get the ultimate combo going right away".

About that just "Hilarious" example of a post here where you would wanna switch from being a lighting caster to being a fire caster. (What the ****) :o.
Then we can aswell just have one character and have tabs of skill setups, like we can switch between weapon setups in diablo II :nod:.
That would be awesome wouldnt it. You could be a fire, cold, lighting, deasease, wind, water and earth caster with just a flinch on the mouse wheel. Make it so we switch equipment aswell for each tab of skill setup.

i can just see AVGN "angry video game nerd" saying his magic words in front of me.
"W*** W*** T*** T*******"

[Rashiminos]

There's nothing immersive about a character switching his or her entire career in a minute with a few clicks.

[Baal]

Its impossible to ignore respec if it exists as its not easy to delete a character in softcore because you died.



It's very easy to delete a character, as would it be to ignore the respec feature.

Just like in WoW - I played a HC character... Deleted a level 64 Mage... No problem.

[etslayer]

How does it ruin your game if I respec my character?


This is not a valid argument. The game has boundaries for a reason. Using your logic, I could say that there should be no dexterity requirement on bows so that my sorc can use one without having to have low vitality. After all, other players shouldn't care how I build my sorc, so why have item req's? See how wrong that is?

Just because you want something for your character doesn't mean it doesn't affect the game as a whole. Sure, you reseting the skills on your own character doesn't affect my gameplay, but it does greatly affect my gameplay if I have the option of doing so. It changes the game for the worse.

I am OK with a very limited respec option. Like maybe a limit of 1 respec per char.

[Baal]

but it does greatly affect my gameplay if I have the option of doing so. It changes the game for the worse.


And what you think is more important because? There are tons of people (like me) who don't think it changes the game for the worst at all.

I think it changes the game for the better. In fact, I really had been hoping if they made a D3 that it would take that aspect of WoW and put it in.

It doesn't change the game for the worst - it's simply a feature you don't like. Nor do you really know how it will work and how it will effect the game...

[Approon]

There's nothing immersive about a character switching his or her entire career in a minute with a few clicks.

?...

You see games are made by rules.

You can go trough trees or killing the npcs because they are crucial for the game progress. Items require different stats and levels, if you could use every single item you found on the way we are getting close to your statement about swithing career with some mouse clicks. If we could use all skills then we could aswell start with them in the beginning and what would immunes be there for? Its like playing chess but you could change back your moves depending on what moves your opponent did. Ask the chess players and see their reaction. As a result your next move doesnt matter because you can change when you see the result.

For Diablo III that would mean every new level and new assignment of stats are really not important because you can change when you need some more strength, dex or better fire spell damage instead of cold damage.

Can continue all day to argue against your pretty statement about switching career by some clicks of the mouse.

[Brother Laz]

That said, NO option to fix mistakes is an archaic, outdated system now that we're in 2008 and games have become exceedingly casual.

'Casual' Hollywood movies are more popular than any other kind, does that mean every film should add explosions and car chases?

If you don't want to spend the fifteen minutes looking at the skill trees and deciding if you want to be a f'ing fire, cold or lightning sorc, you're giving a big middle finger to the developers - dudes, your game is THAT unimportant to me! Gib explosions now or I quit!

Of course, this is assuming that there are either no useless skills, or that it is abundantly clear which are useless (ie. good descriptions - people may actually want useless skills for a challenge). If this assumption is untrue, the skill tree is just Russian roulette and skill respecs become mandatory.

[etslayer]

And what you think is more important because? There are tons of people (like me) who don't think it changes the game for the worst at all.

I think it changes the game for the better. In fact, I really had been hoping if they made a D3 that it would take that aspect of WoW and put it in.

It doesn't change the game for the worst - it's simply a feature you don't like. Nor do you really know how it will work and how it will effect the game...



When I was playing D2, many times I would get incredibly frustrated that the game designers did not offer any sort of respect feature for my character. But looking back, I realize that the reason I was frustraded is because I loved the game so much. A lot of obstacles made me frustraded, not because the obstacles were unfair, but because I so badly wanted a perfect character. Nowadays, lazy gamers try to avoid these obstacles in order to avoid the resultant frustration. What this does is diminish the depth of the game, and fails to establish a foundation for the game. Some rules are unpleasant, but are necessary for the game to reach it's full potential.

The fact of the matter is that you only get frustrated with games that you are in to. Frustration is not a result of poor design, because if the design were poor, you wouldnt care enough about the game in the first place to be frustrated with it.


What i am trying to say is that not being able to revamp a character's skills with a click of a button makes the game more challenging, and creates an attachment to the character. It is this resultant attachment that makes people frustrated that they can't respec. They want their char to be perfect. Imagine you HAD been able to respec in D2. You would respec once. Then you would do it over and over until your character has had seen every build under the sun. This is pretty much the case with hero editor. Imagine the game was like hero editor and you could mold your character however you want without any work behind it. It's shallow, stupid, pointless.

Once respec per char MAX is fine.

[s4nder]

?...

You see games are made by rules.

You can go trough trees or killing the npcs because they are crucial for the game progress. Items require different stats and levels, if you could use every single item you found on the way we are getting close to your statement about swithing career with some mouse clicks. If we could use all skills then we could aswell start with them in the beginning and what would immunes be there for? Its like playing chess but you could change back your moves depending on what moves your opponent did. Ask the chess players and see their reaction. As a result your next move doesnt matter because you can change when you see the result.

For Diablo III that would mean every new level and new assignment of stats are really not important because you can change when you need some more strength, dex or better fire spell damage instead of cold damage.

Can continue all day to argue against your pretty statement about switching career by some clicks of the mouse.

I think you misunderstood him a bit. He's against respecing, saying that it breaks immersion.

[Approon]

I think you misunderstood him a bit. He's against respecing, saying that it breaks immersion.

yea i miss interpret his post, saw after. my argument against respec i think fitted thou :whistling:

hehe

[stillman]

Casserole, you say that respecing would help Blizzard because we would use 1/3 less toons. I think the real number of toons lost would be 90% as the bulk of d2 fans move on to something else--something that gives us the challenge many people in this thread are talking about. The game can't simply be the exact experience you want. Nelix is right about everything, especially in saying remaking chrs is what the game is all about. Blizzard clearly wants us to play a certain way. Sure, they give us huge options, but there are some things they have intended for us. Here is some evidence:
1-There is a get-up-and-go ease to making a new chr. There's none of this D&D Baulder's Gate or Fallout 2 ellaborate chr creation process. Not that it's bad, but Blizzard wants us to rebuild often without being bogged down.
2-Normal mode is very easy. You can beat the game with a chr in one day, and that takes you over lev 30 so you get a feel of any skills on the trees. The game spits out 4 quest skills too for more experimentation. It's only one day lost if you want to remake.
3-Blizzard could have easily patched rushing by putting chr level limits on joining parties, but maybe they still allow rushing becasue there are so many builds to experiment with.
4-Fast paced (needless to say) and tweaking allowed, again making it easy to rebuild without too much of a time sink.
Rebuilding your chr is a big part of the game culture that Blizzard intended for us. I will throw your own arguement back at you: If you don't want to rebuild your imperfect chr, then you don't have to. You don't need a perfect chr if you're not concerned about the competiton and comparison with others.

To those who say respecing is merely an option that not everyone has to use, I'm afraid that is not the case. This "option" is something that would literally kill the game.

Again, the game cannot be the exact experience you want it to be. Your gaming experience is in part what Blizzard allows. It is very obvious that Blizzard wants there to be FIERCE competition. Look no further than the ladder. Also, the item system is set up so that there is almost always better gear to compete for and you need mass wealth to gain it. Competeing is a huge factor of the game devised by Blizzard. Part of the competition involves planning a chr who does not waste too many skill/stat points becasue after all, there are others out there who are trying to be perfectionists. There is a conquest to outperform those perfectionsits, and this conquest is upheld by Blizzard. You can't just take all this away because you feel you don't have enough time to rebuild. Respec would remove the competition. "See you in the throne room with nothing to talk about."

Someone mentioned in thier pro respec argument that there aren't many lev 90+ chrs. Well before the ladder reset, there were thousands of them. The bottom of the hc ladder was in the low to mid 90's, and the bottom of the sc ladder was lev 97. There were thousands more from 90 to mid 90's unseen. Then, there is non ladder.

My main point is that the Diablo franchise is not what some of you want it to be. It is designed for a crowd who likes to compete, with plenty of room for those casual players who just like to have fun and not worry about the struggle. There is room for us all, but if Diablo has these core values tinkered with, you can bet Blizzaerd will lose a ton of it's long term fans.

Many people have brought up very concrete reasons as to why respecing would indeed ruin their game--ruin THE game. I don't see how anyone can look at any Diablo game and say, "now here's a game where I shouldn't have to spend too many hours playing." I'm a bit baffled by the respec postion. Saving time? It's a RPG. Many of us have been playing for many years and, as noted by s4nder, we are still drawn back by unexplored builds. Why take that away?

Edit: USEAST ladder reference

[Sein Schatten]

but Blizzard wants us to rebuild often without being bogged down.
Do you know how much time it cost to level to 90+ in D2C? I doubt that sentiment and you can't back it up. ;)



2-Normal mode is very easy. You can beat the game with a chr in one day, and that takes you over lev 30 so you get a feel of any skills on the trees. The game spits out 4 quest skills too for more experimentation. It's only one day lost if you want to remake.


When after patch X your lvl 95 char is obsolete it takes more than 1 day to level up to that level.



4-Fast paced (needless to say) and tweaking allowed, again making it easy to rebuild without too much of a time sink.

Hmm.... Fast paced combat does not mean instant max level. I really think and hope the leveling is more akin to D2C/D1.



Rebuilding your chr is a big part of the game culture that Blizzard intended for us. I will throw your own arguement back at you: If you don't want to rebuild your imperfect chr, then you don't have to. You don't need a perfect chr if you're not concerned about the competiton and comparison with others.


Forced rebuilding is not fun. Neither because you made a few more mistakes.


This "option" is something that would literally kill the game.

No.


Part of the competition involves planning a chr who does not waste too many skill/stat points becasue after all, there are others out there who are trying to be perfectionists. There is a conquest to outperform those perfectionsits, and this conquest is upheld by Blizzard. You can't just take all this away because you feel you don't have enough time to rebuild. Respec would remove the competition. "See you in the throne room with nothing to talk about."

Guildwars. 'Nuff said.

[sbn]

Alternative to respec is simply re-doing a char. That would require the ability to rush through and level a la Cows, Chaos, or Ubers. Short of that, the game WILL get tiring for many and you will NOT see D3 have the longevity that D2 enjoyed. Starting out through the game is fine at the beginning, but after 8 years of the same thing I would not be playing this game at all if I could not re-do my char an a simplistic manner.

In fact the first thing I did when ladder was reset (I will not be playing ladder anymore) was to re-do my previous ladders Necro, SS Druid, and WW Barb.

I have seen some "purists" who complain that there should be no way for people to level as such, etc.. But allow me to say this. This is all OPTIONAL! Meaning if you wish to re-do a char, it is your option whether you want to rush him or go through the game the long way. Please do not impose YOUR beliefs of how the game should be played on others.

I can agree that having unlimited respecs would be too much. In fact I care less about respecs and more about how I can re-do a char a la D2. It will be fine in the beginning, but if D3 is as playable as D2 was and wants to have the same life span...then they need to factor in these aspects. Otherwise you will see a very small community after a few years.

[stillman]

Sbn, you say "Please do not impose YOUR beliefs of how the game should be played on others." I'm not sure if you're refering to respecing or rushing, but I believe it's Blizzard who is imposing on us how they want us to play. I'm saying that Blizzard endorces a playing style in d2. It's not us fans who want you to rebuild a certain way, it's Blizzard. And Blizzard has set us up for many years playing without respecing. Removing Blizzard's challenge of forcing us to spend more time for our goals is removing an even bigger portion of the players than you mentioned.

Relating now to many other posts, I will state that if you make percieved mistakes on building your chr, then that is your own choice, your own fault and there are consequences. If you built your chr up to the 90's and you don't like the way it turned out, then it was by your very own hand for numerous hours that you commited to this mistake. It seems reasonable that if you make mistakes you should pay for them.

[Sein Schatten]

Relating now to many other posts, I will state that if you make percieved mistakes on building your chr, then that is your own choice, your own fault and there are consequences. If you built your chr up to the 90's and you don't like the way it turned out, then it was by your very own hand for numerous hours that you commited to this mistake. It seems reasonable that if you make mistakes you should pay for them.

Do you know why high deathpenalties in MMORPGs are outdated and not liked by the majority? Nobody likes to make backsteps and no game should force you to do steps back. Blizzard aknowledged this on WoW GD many times and explained it way better then I can do. And this is the same reason why respecs are going into the game and why I like it that way.

[Mivo]

Schatten makes a good point. Most people play games for recreation, for fun. Death penalties are no fun. Games can still be challenging, but in a "positive" way: rewards instead of punishment. People who play "less well" or are not "as hardcore" progress more slowly, so there is no need to "punish" them.

If someone wants other challenges, they can play either HC mode (if offered) or set some special rules for how they play (ironman, no trading, etc.).

So even with a respec option, players can still choose not to use it. Challenges should be about oneself, one's own limits, and not about others or their abilities.

[Nimbostratus]

I've seen a few posts mentioning not wanting to have to go through the early levels all the time. I think THAT is what should be getting some more attention. Nobody likes the early levels in D2 because you're limited to junk like ice bolt and normal attack until level 18 or so, when you get things you actually want to use. If they focus on making the early levels more interesting, then maybe we won't have to but so much emphasis on getting to the endgame right away. Interesting skills, alternate starting points, heck- maybe even variable quests could make everyone stop groaning about restarting so much.

On another note, if the endgame is balanced well, maybe even minor respecs won't be needed. If items (of the same type) have slightly variable requirements, and there aren't any "clear winners" in terms of item choices, then misplacing a point or two won't be such a bad thing, as you get more flexibility in your options.

EDIT: Another idea: To help avoid players ending up with lame characters from their skill choices, maybe there should be a "test room" option next to single player/battle net. You could put in stats for a build you're thinking of and specify what you wanna test it on ("Average Act 4 monster" for example). Such a test room would also be helpful for pinpointing bugs.

[Brother Laz]

Do you know why high deathpenalties in MMORPGs are outdated and not liked by the majority? Nobody likes to make backsteps and no game should force you to do steps back.

Nobody likes to make backsteps even if they are blundering idiots who don't deem the game worthy of 15 minutes of reading skill descriptions. I didn't know 'I don't want to think, make it so my mistakes have no consequences' was such a valuable life lesson.

......

I suppose there should be big red arrows pointing to the right units to build in SC2 because you don't want to research which building has cloak detection. After all, this is a game and it should be fun. And a lurker just killed Jim Raynor and now it's mission over and you just lost 30 minutes of your life. Boo-hoo-hoo.

Oh wait, that's actually pretty much what people are already suggesting. Automine, autobuild, two-button mass building (MBS), autocast, formations, autoscatter, autogroup and autotarget. All so you won't run the risk of making a bad decision that might cause you to lose, you Generation Y.

Luckily, Blizzard has thrown out the latter half of these ideas. Needless to say, the serious Starcraft gamers are up in arms about the former half and it seems the Korean SC leagues are going to stick with Starcraft and ignore the sequel. Gee. Oops.

......

Oh, by the way, you just died to Mephisto because you ran straight into his cold orb. But don't worry, even though you're dead, you'll get Mephisto's drop anyway because you're so special.

......


EDIT: Another idea: To help avoid players ending up with lame characters from their skill choices, maybe there should be a "test room" option next to single player/battle net. You could put in stats for a build you're thinking of and specify what you wanna test it on ("Average Act 4 monster" for example). Such a test room would also be helpful for pinpointing bugs.

I proposed this a page or so ago on the forum and it got slammed because it was 'unrealistic'. Double standards much? Oh right, this isn't about fixing mistakes after all.

[Thyiad]

Sein Schatten

You've already been slapped for reporting a post because you were annoyed it attacked you, when your own post wasn't very nice. Misuse the report again and you will be taking a vacation.

Clear?

[Mivo]

Nobody likes to make backsteps even if they are blundering idiots who don't deem the game worthy of 15 minutes of reading skill descriptions. I didn't know 'I don't want to think, make it so my mistakes have no consequences' was such a valuable life lesson.

People do not play video games to learn "life lessons". They play video games to enjoy themselves and have fun. And these "blundering idiots" pay the same money as you do, and there are probably more of them than there are "l33t" players like you. ;)

By the way, no respec system I have seen in a game, and none that was suggested in this thread, allows for unlimited, free (as in "no efffort") changing of skills and stats at any given time without any prerequisites.

Compromises are a Good Thing.

[Nimbostratus]

I proposed this a page or so ago on the forum and it got slammed because it was 'unrealistic'.

If implemented right, it could blend in well enough. Just have the player consult a seer or something like that.

[etslayer]

Schatten makes a good point. Most people play games for recreation, for fun. Death penalties are no fun. Games can still be challenging, but in a "positive" way: rewards instead of punishment. People who play "less well" or are not "as hardcore" progress more slowly, so there is no need to "punish" them.

If someone wants other challenges, they can play either HC mode (if offered) or set some special rules for how they play (ironman, no trading, etc.).

So even with a respec option, players can still choose not to use it. Challenges should be about oneself, one's own limits, and not about others or their abilities.


Blizzard is not PUNISHING anyone by not allowing respecs. These are the rules of the game! It's a very reasonable challenge that players have to deal with.

Now it is INCREDIBLY IGNORANT to say that respeccing doesn't affect the gameplay of those who "choose not to use it." Respeccing removes certain boundaries which changes the gameplay for every single player, not just those that utilize it. BTW everybody would utilize it... if it is available I know I will use it, but I dont want to have that option.

The reason that myself and many others do not want respecs is because it diminishes the game as a WHOLE. Not just for those using it, but it changes the entire gameplay for every single player. Basically what you are saying is that those who want the game to be easy should be allowed to have an easy game, and those who want to play a difficult, meaningful game should create their OWN boundaries! Rediculous. Utterly rediculous. It simply doesn't work that way.

Asking Blizzard to take away an aspect of the game because you want to play a character the way you want and everyone else has to play under the same washed up rules, is incredibly selfish.

I'm not against change, but I am against washing up the game to cater to people that know WoW and only WoW.

[kirborg]

Blizzard is not PUNISHING anyone by not allowing respecs. These are the rules of the game! It's a very reasonable challenge that players have to deal with.

Now it is INCREDIBLY IGNORANT to say that respeccing doesn't affect the gameplay of those who "choose not to use it." Respeccing removes certain boundaries which changes the gameplay for every single player, not just those that utilize it. BTW everybody would utilize it... if it is available I know I will use it, but I dont want to have that option.

The reason that myself and many others do not want respecs is because it diminishes the game as a WHOLE. Not just for those using it, but it changes the entire gameplay for every single player. Basically what you are saying is that those who want the game to be easy should be allowed to have an easy game, and those who want to play a difficult, meaningful game should create their OWN boundaries! Rediculous. Utterly rediculous. It simply doesn't work that way.

Asking Blizzard to take away an aspect of the game because you want to play a character the way you want and everyone else has to play under the same washed up rules, is incredibly selfish.

I'm not against change, but I am against washing up the game to cater to people that know WoW and only WoW.

i don't think people should reject the idea of respecs so easily. I agree that people shouldn't be able to respec an infinite amount of times since it takes away the value of skill distribution. However, if they were to let players only change their spec maybe once a difficulty trough a quest then it would be a whole different story. as long as it's implemented with taste im all for it.

[Apocalypse]

why bother with respecs? just give every char every skill when they reach the required level. now everyone has every skill and you can all have fun doing the same run over and over instead of remaking a new char

[StevenBrouwer]

And what if you need a pvp built while you were on a pve built? You should be able to respec with out a penalty. Or else you would be limiting your char to one part of the game.

A penalty wouldn't be good anyway. Should be no respec at all or free respec. Pentalies are going to be annoying as someone already mentioned

[Apocalypse]

like i said, just give every char all thier skills and be done with it, less dev time doing that also

[amusingtugboat]

And what if you need a pvp built while you were on a pve built? You should be able to respec with out a penalty. Or else you would be limiting your char to one part of the game.

A penalty wouldn't be good anyway. Should be no respec at all or free respec. Pentalies are going to be annoying as someone already mentioned

Then remake a PVP char or you should have thought about that before you made your PVM char. Comeon every gamer now a days want everything handed to them. If you made a pure PVM its your own fault if you want to PVP with him later. Or you could PVP anyway but he wont be as effective as PVP builds and its only fair to people who made PVP chars in the first place that someone who just runs thro the game as PVM just easily changes after he is done with PVM.

[StreetShark]

I don't think there should be respec at all. As soon as people hear one build is good, next thing you know everyone will be playing it. "OH Billy built uber thrower barb." One week later 90% of barbs are that barb, and the next week another type.

Not to mention for gameplay. Why not respec if you know this act needs alot of AOE power, or why not respec because you know the final Act has alot of fire characters and you need more group friendly skills. Next thing you know clans will be based around forcing players to be certain specs, just like WoW.

This is rediculous

[etslayer]

These kids don't understand that respec makes the game shallow. It sounds nice in theory, but when implimented it would cause people to get bored of the game a lot faster.

You can test this yourself:
download hero editor for D2. See how long that keeps you entertained.

If you are anything like me, you will have maxed out all the necro summoning skills, gone to worldstone keep and raised about 100 minions.

About 20 mins later you will be bored and make a new character with the click of a button with all the skills you want.

Because you didn't work for these characters, they have no meaning. Imagine everybody online in D3 doing this. The game would suck.

I vote for having 1 respec available to a character, and you must be wise as to when and how you use it.

[ask_dk]

I don't think there should be respec at all. As soon as people hear one build is good, next thing you know everyone will be playing it. "OH Billy built uber thrower barb." One week later 90% of barbs are that barb, and the next week another type.

Not to mention for gameplay. Why not respec if you know this act needs alot of AOE power, or why not respec because you know the final Act has alot of fire characters and you need more group friendly skills. Next thing you know clans will be based around forcing players to be certain specs, just like WoW.

This is rediculous
1. Im not that fond of respecs either, as long as they put a limit on it im happy
2. People who doesnt like respecs are not forced to use that feature of the game, its as simple as that!

[Nimbostratus]

People who doesnt like respecs are not forced to use that feature of the game, its as simple as that!

It isn't that simple. As mentioned earlier in the thread, it's like if instead of having a hardcore mode, hardcore players were told to simply ignore the fact that you can continue playing after your character dies. Sure, some people would force themselves to delete the character, but I'm sure that quite a few couldn't go through with it and would need an actual hardcore mode.

A game with full respec always seems kinda cheap to me. It's like having a built-in character editor, and would feel like I'm playing on open. You don't just change from a pure fire sorc to a pure cold sorc in a day (example).

[Swiffer]

It isn't that simple. As mentioned earlier in the thread, it's like if instead of having a hardcore mode, hardcore players were told to simply ignore the fact that you can continue playing after your character dies. Sure, some people would force themselves to delete the character, but I'm sure that quite a few couldn't go through with it and would need an actual hardcore mode.

So basically you are opposed to this because some people lack the willpower and control to not use an optional feature of the game? You sound like a mothers group.

"We are totally opposed to this because some people who might otherwise avoid it will be tempted to use it, thus it should be completely removed"

Sound familiar? Its the same kind of 'think of the children' bull**** we get fed every day thanks to parents being too lazy to actually parent their kids.

[Nimbostratus]

There was a little more to my post than that.

[etslayer]

So basically you are opposed to this because some people lack the willpower and control to not use an optional feature of the game? You sound like a mothers group.

"We are totally opposed to this because some people who might otherwise avoid it will be tempted to use it, thus it should be completely removed"

Sound familiar? Its the same kind of 'think of the children' bull**** we get fed every day thanks to parents being too lazy to actually parent their kids.


Swiffer you totally missing the point. If the option is available, it changes the game for EVERYONE, not just those who choose to use it. It changes the whole foundation of the game. It's not about who chooses to use it and who doesn't. By your logic, I could say that the game should have no rules at all because people can just make up their own rules if they want a challenge. Utterly rediculous.

Respeccing is an aspect that makes character building too easy and too shallow for all players, whether you like the idea or not. In theory the respec idea sounds tempting, but that's only because you care about having a good character and the possibility of making a bad build is an obstacle which you are annoyed with. Well guess what, rules can be an obstacle. Deal with it.

If they introduce respec, I can realistically see it being 1 respec max per character. Blizz is not stupid enough to offer multiple respecs (unless they did it for WoW... I wouldn't know).

[stephan]

So basically you are opposed to this because some people lack the willpower and control to not use an optional feature of the game? You sound like a mothers group.
I prefer to see the ones who like to play games without any rules whatsoever as the ones without any will power. It's an RPG after all, and I think its not hard to expect from such a game that decisions made towards that role are actually going to have an effect on gameplay.

You are basically arguing for a game where IDKFA becomes the standard method of playing. It's fun for 15 minutes yeah.

[Swiffer]

By your logic, I could say that the game should have no rules at all because people can just make up their own rules if they want a challenge. Utterly rediculous.

It is foolish to take an analogy to an extreme and expect it to still stand up. It doesn't. Everybody accepts that a game world needs rules and boundries. Without it, you do not have a game, you have a platform, which are both different. So, your extension of analogy makes little sense.


If they introduce respec, I can realistically see it being 1 respec max per character. Blizz is not stupid enough to offer multiple respecs (unless they did it for WoW... I wouldn't know).

WoW respecs are limited purely by whether or not you can afford the cost. They start at 1g and ramp up to 50g. Pre-expansion, 50g was substantial, post expansion, you can knock up 50g in a half hour. If i am not mistaken, the last subscriber numbers Blizzard released had WoW at around 10.7 million active accounts, so i don't buy into the theory that respecs make a game shallow and destroy its longevity.

Also, for all those that are not WoW players, the very discussion you are bashing to death in this thread has been going on for 4 years on the WoW forums, neither camp (anti-respec and pro 'remove all cost' repsec) has come closer to each other, and Blizzard has responded to the arguments by doing absolutely nothing to change the respec system that launched with the game.

If they are going to have respecs, the anti camp is not going to get them removed and the pro camp isn't going to get them any less restricted.

How they get implemented into D3 is still open for debate. Chances are good they will be there in some form. It is very unlikely it will be in the form of unlimited 'for a cost' like WoW, as it does not fit the style of game.

[DerekJCEX]

Just thinking about this some more.

We have 4 types of "realms" in D2 right now, correct?
Normal, hardcore and their ladder variants.

So we really could have:

normal with respec
normal ladder no respec
hardcore no respec
hardcore ladder no respec

I mean how is normal respec different from just using a trainer in single player? Most people would want to play and value the ladder more due to better items etc.

this seems like the best idea.

[etslayer]

It is foolish to take an analogy to an extreme and expect it to still stand up. It doesn't. Everybody accepts that a game world needs rules and boundries. Without it, you do not have a game, you have a platform, which are both different. So, your extension of analogy makes little sense.


I made that analogy purely using your own logic. According to your logic, it doesn't matter how easy the game is because people can always choose to make up their own personal boundaries and challenges. I know that's not how you put it, but your underlying logic justifies the analogy.


Now what I am trying to say is this:
Rules such as no-respec are designed to make the game challenging

Challenge leads to depth in the game
which leads to love for the game,
which leads to frustration at the game.

By introducing respecs, you are eliminating frustration and you think all is good. But when you get rid of frustration, it means that the other factors that I mentioned above also are eliminated.

This is because it is not frustration due to poor game design, but frustration caused by your love for the game, which is a result of depth which is a result of challenge. It is all connected. In other words, it's an elimination of frustration at the expense of game quality.


Anyway... im becoming delirious... it's time for bed.

[Hrus]

IMHO, it's simple. It's RPG, your decisions about placing skill-points and stat-points should matter.
If they don't, you don't have a RPG, but only point and click action game. :bored:
I want to play RPG. If D3 will be point and click action game, I will probably play it too. For like 2 weeks.

[Bertis]

I agree with Hrus (and probably many others but I skipped to page 19 and 20).

There was a reason you couldn't respec in Diablo 2. Bill Roper could've done it but I really think it would've screwed up a big part of the game that made it fun and addictive.

A single respec at level 30 or 40 is my vote. That way you can get a good feel for all the skills and the direction you want to take your character. Having multiple sorcs and barbs in D2 was part of the game that definitely made it more fun.

For D3 to appeal to the true Diablo fans, I would be very content with respecs being disallowed entirely, but in terms of adding respecs to the game without breaking the game mechanics, one single possible respec should be maximum.

[Approon]

IMHO, it's simple. It's RPG, your decisions about placing skill-points and stat-points should matter.
If they don't, you don't have a RPG, but only point and click action game. :bored:
I want to play RPG. If D3 will be point and click action game, I will probably play it too. For like 2 weeks.

Exactly my point :thumbup:

I want my next level distrubution and stat distrubution to be crucial for my character, and not just because i would know from the start of the game what i want to be? I can place points where i see fit but i put a big thought into where it should go.

Im sure they will balance the skills so we dont need anymore (saving skills until lvl 18 - 30) because the lower one sucks. Or they make something completely different.

Respecs just seems to me like a lazy way for players to test skills and for the developers to make skills that were really "meh".

[ask_dk]

A single respec at level 30 or 40 is my vote. That way you can get a good feel for all the skills and the direction you want to take your character. Having multiple sorcs and barbs in D2 was part of the game that definitely made it more fun.

For D3 to appeal to the true Diablo fans, I would be very content with respecs being disallowed entirely, but in terms of adding respecs to the game without breaking the game mechanics, one single possible respec should be maximum.
I couldnt agree more.

[Tingi]

Surely respecs are a good thing.

With no respecs, people would just play the exact same type of build as anyone else due to a fear of gimping their character. They would look up builds on forums such as these and copy them exactly.

Respecs would encourage people to have varied and different builds and have no fear of experimenting without gimping their character.

Respecs doesn't make a game shallow, it adds depth and creativity. At the end of the day, if you don't want to respec, then don't, but don't complain because others can do it when you just have to make a new character.

Not only that but the pracical side cannot be ignored either. A lot of people may put a lot of time and effort into a character and don't want to make another one of the same proffesion just for a slightly different build when respecs can do that for them, whilst they get to keep on playing with their favourite character. I am pro-respec.

[Approon]

Surely respecs are a good thing.

With no respecs, people would just play the exact same type of build as anyone else due to a fear of gimping their character. They would look up builds on forums such as these and copy them exactly.

Respecs would encourage people to have varied and different builds and have no fear of experimenting without gimping their character.

Respecs doesn't make a game shallow, it adds depth and creativity. At the end of the day, if you don't want to respec, then don't, but don't complain because others can do it when you just have to make a new character.

Not only that but the pracical side cannot be ignored either. A lot of people may put a lot of time and effort into a character and don't want to make another one of the same proffesion just for a slightly different build when respecs can do that for them, whilst they get to keep on playing with their favourite character. I am pro-respec.

Im against respec but as of now we have no clue if its in or in what degrees. I can live with mistake respecs like you can respec your points during a period after they have been used or make so the younger the character is the easier it is to respec to then be impossible.

[kirborg]

you have to understand that in Diablo 2 you could level a character to 70-80 in a few hours worth if you knew what you were doing and had friends to rush you.

In Diablo 3 this may change completely (or so I would hope), meaning that you have to put loads of time in one character before it can come even close to the upper levels of the game.

If this is in fact the case then I know for a fact that many players do not feel like it's worth it creating a new character and spend 50+ hours just so they can try a different build.

Therefor I think the best way to handle this is only let people respec maybe 3 times per character. That way they can have plenty of options for experimenting without handing them the option to change their skills every 5 minutes when the situation calls for it.

[Approon]

you have to understand that in Diablo 2 you could level a character to 70-80 in a few hours worth if you knew what you were doing and had friends to rush you.

In Diablo 3 this may change completely (or so I would hope), meaning that you have to put loads of time in one character before it can come even close to the upper levels of the game.

If this is in fact the case then I know for a fact that many players do not feel like it's worth it creating a new character and spend 50+ hours just so they can try a different build.

Therefor I think the best way to handle this is only let people respec maybe 3 times per character. That way they can have plenty of options for experimenting without handing them the option to change their skills every 5 minutes when the situation calls for it.

Its supposed to be an ARPG and not a WoW replica, i think instead of making it take ages to level your character make it so there are alot of item combinations available and skills that help each other in all possible ways. By making some limits on how easily you can be rushed all problems are solved.

I dont want something like. Ohh i got my character to level 99 now i can try everything and be ultimate all the time.

[kamap]

just some thought that crossed my mind
wouldn't it be cool that what u did affected the skills / stats, lets say ur a barbarian and u use and axe all day long and u like to use ww alot, so ww and axe + str go higer but suddenly u want to try that with a sword so u start loosing axe skills and str but gain sword skills and dex to how long u use / don't use something

what i experienced in other rpg's
I've played alot of rpg's and there where different approaches to skills and stats. so lets just wait and see what diablo3 approach will be.

in some you where able to respec but at a cost, like in wow its 50 gold at a point, in some asian rpg u needed loads of gold (was hard to get) to buy a scroll to do it, in others u best thought out what u wanted to reach cause once u picked something it was set and u couldn't change it and if u slipped up bad luck start a new

in others u lvled and gained to match what u did, if u kept chopping wood al day long u got alot of muscle and are good with an axe but u can't read a book and ur not very smart (I liked this the most) the downside was you could keep going and going and get everything maxed, it would be better if u stopped doing something for long and did something other (stop chopping wood, and start reading books) u would start to loose skills / stats but keep some basics of it and gained in others

respeccing will take away individuality (yeah right)
if its like in diablo 2 u'll get all the "cookie cutter" builds after a while once everyone knows whats good and whats not.

so saying it took me hours to get this build and now u copy it by respeccing will happen to but in a different way and at a point everyone will be the same, if u can respecc u can try out and experiment all you want and see what works for you and hence there will be more diversity

what i think about respeccing and how I think it should go
a thing i do hope that its not on the spot and it takes some effort to do, or a time limit, so u are forced to test ur build for some time, but as long that ur in the place or at the npc u need to be to respec u can keep respeccing untill u move from the spot or person or click yeah i'm sure or something, so if u slip up when respeccing ur not forced to test a built u din't want

time is of the essence
it also depends on the time it takes to lvl your character, lets say in diablo u can lvl from 1-90 in 4-5h (grushing and uber lvling) so whats the harm in loosing those 4-5h if u wanna try a new build?

but in wow it takes like 15 playing days to get to max lvl and i don't like the thought of slipping up or getting bored with the build and doing those 15 days over and over again, just to test other builds

when ur bored of a char / build u test a new build and so on, it made me play wow longer then if respeccing wasnt possible, cause i got tired of my build at a point and I didn't feel like making a new char so normally i would have stopped playing it but thanks to the respeccing possibility i got to experience a different side of my char

wow diablo comparison
you can't compare the 2 the one is hack and slash and can be played out in a few days, the other takes months to get anywhere "decent"

small note
this is how i think, if i made any generalities its meant from my point of view or can mean something completely different then what u think it means

I also din't read all the postings cause after a few pages it all started looking like the same thing all over again

THE BIG TIP
just wait till the game is out, test it and then start this thing all over again, cause we don't have a clue how its gonna be and atm we are all just tossing up what we think and are getting nowhere

we are acting like some kids playing the yes / no game or the I'm right your wrong

Appologies
sorry for the extreme big wall of text, u can all go take a cookie and milk after reading this u have been great

thanks
to anyone who fully reads this post and doesnt feel the need to bash on me

[Operational]

Something I'd really like to see is a progressive respec, where you set altered targets for stats/skills, and exp you gain goes towards those changes. (say you want to lower your energy by 15 and move it into vitality, as you kill points would slowly move, or every quarter levels worth of experience one skill point gets freed out of a skill you have marked to unlearn). No idea how it'd actually play out but I'd like to toy around with it.


It doesn't have to be complicated. Allow limitless respecs, they just cost a full level. If you were 90, welcome to the beginning of level 89. Simple, elegant and it scales with levels. Respeccing at level 30 wouldn't be anything compared to respeccing at 90 as far as getting back to where you were is involved. So go ahead and fulfill the promise of respeccing to kill a certain boss and then speccing back, you lose 2 levels for doing it.

Best idea's in the thread IMO. I'm very partial to Rcuhljr's and came up with a slightly different method based on his idea.

Using skill points as an example:
Every level up you would get

a skill point
the option to move a point from one skill to another


This option would be non-cumulative (or potentially cumulative with a low cap)

This method would have several consequences:

removes some of the need to save skill points
allows small experimentation (put a few points in a skill, if it doesn't work with your character you can move the points over a few level ups)
more varied low level skill allocation (before choosing a more narrow path and slowly respecing later)
prevents high-speed respecing
puts a limit to respecing an entire character at around level 45 (start a total respec any higher and you wouldn't get the chance to complete it)
short/medium-long term punishment of large scale respec's (eg a level 50 char in the middle re-arranging skills into a particular build would be less powerful than a level 50 char who has all their points in that build already)
mistakes/misclicks fixable at next level up.


Of course this is all based on how Diablo 2 does things, Diablo 3 could take a different approach to all sorts of things.

[IdiotDK]

Here we go.
Im not gonna read 20 pages, so dont hate me if this has already been up.

I read some of the pages though, and TQ was mentioned a few times.

I played TQ alot, and i must say, its the best hack'n'slash game since D2LOD.
It just lacked a few things, mostly Bnet.

However, the respec system was very cool. And it adds a new aspect to the game.

Ie. if you wanna play Hammerdin, you arent gonna rock until you get that Hammer of yours. Or if you wanna play WW barb, you'll have to bash everything with 1pt.

Therefore it is very cool to have respec as TQ had it. You can make a fairly good build, so you dont have to be rushed through normal and nightmare, and start doing baal runs so your toon can grow.

Another thing, and dont understand why alot of you guys hate respec so much. The way D2 work, we kinda have it. If you misplaced your skills, or your build gets nerfed. You just get a rush to hell, and BR to level 80 in 1 day. There you go, respeced that char.

[etslayer]

jrichard's idea makes a lot of sense. You had to gain experience to learn your skills, so if you want to unlearn a skill and learn a new one, it only makes sense to have to re-level towards that skill.

For every individual skill point that you respec, you lose a level. This way if your finger slips and you accidentally learn a skill that you didn't intend to click on, you can unlearn it and be penalized by 1 level. In other words, you restart from the point at which you ruined your char, and there is no free ride.

This also means that people who want to completely revamp their character would pretty much be starting from scratch (or close to scratch). This system prevents people from taking the easy road to respeccing, but still allows people to make minor tweaks.

[Remy]

Respec(unlimited) is bad and it does hurt the experience of others.

The problem comes from the fact that everyone would only need at most 5 characters, one for each class. Imagine what happens a month after D3's release. Most of the hardcore fans would've already picked up the game and have gotten their characters pretty high in levels. For anyone coming into D3 after the first few months, there would be no one around to party with. It might be bustling up there at the lvl 85+ range, but down at the early to mid levels, it'll be a ghost town.

In at most a year, if even that long, D3 would become an unapproachable game for people wishing to play it on the realms. There would be no one around, and certainly no circulation of anything other than uber gear. If you missed NM Baal runs when everyone else was doing it, you ain't never gonna do it. No one will come back for it because there is no reason to after the first five times through.

FFXI is a good example. It is virtually impossible to start FFXI today, you're either already there in on the end-game content or you never will be. It should be at least possible to level to end-game solo in D3, but it still won't be a pleasant experience for folks expecting to do it with others.

Respec'ing also waters down the game. Instead of having the distinction between different builds of a class, a Barb will just a Barb, because it's every kind of Barb possible. Instead of having many sub-classes, we'll just have 5 all-in-one classes and that's it. I don't think that's what we want for a fast paced game like D3. Unlimited respec'ing works for WoW because of how much of a time sink it is. It takes forever just to gear up a single build of a single character. It is unreasonable to think that D3, a hack-and-slash ARPG, would be anywhere near the time sink that the MMORPG WoW is.

I personally would vote for no respec'ing at all. Even the need of having a one-time quest reward where you can unspend maybe 5 skill points is questionable IMO. There's no reason why we should risk watering down the game just because some of us have unbelievably slippering mouse fingers.

[IdiotDK]

I was wondering, all you guys who hate respec so much, have you ever tried Titan Quest?.

In TQ, you also have a skill tree, there is only one three pr. class thou. but with different types of skills. Also, skills dont unlock due to your level, you have to put skill points in your mastery (and mastery points can't be respeced). If they made a system like this i D3, you wouldnt be able to respec your Light sorc into a Fire sorc, but you could only respec light skills into other light skills. i think that would be awsome :D.

Also, it shouldnt be possible to respec stat points, just skills.

[Approon]

I was wondering, all you guys who hate respec so much, have you ever tried Titan Quest?.

In TQ, you also have a skill tree, there is only one three pr. class thou. but with different types of skills. Also, skills dont unlock due to your level, you have to put skill points in your mastery (and mastery points can't be respeced). If they made a system like this i D3, you wouldnt be able to respec your Light sorc into a Fire sorc, but you could only respec light skills into other light skills. i think that would be awsome :D.

Also, it shouldnt be possible to respec stat points, just skills.

Im against respec and ive played alot of titan quest. My reason for that is simple, i want to specialize my character in either fireball or volcano and not being able to switch between them later. Another example im playing as a rouge and using traps, then whenever i feel like it can switch completely from traps and go something else.

I dont want that option to be available.

[jakotaco]

If there was respeccing in D2 I would have quit many years ago, simply because I would have tried every skill combination. Now I can still spend my time thinking of questions as "would it be possible to make a high-end frost nova sorc?" I havge played games iwth respeccing, and sure it's handy and saves you a lot of time... but remember that saving time = reducing the lifetime of said game.

After all as someone said, very well put: "games is about wasting time, not saving it"

[stillman]

Etslayer, Nimbostratus, and Approon are 100% right. Their examples can't be made any more clear. We are only looking out for the longevity of the game, whereas pro respec advocates are looking out for themselves, their mistakes and their precious time they don't want "wasted".

Swiffer, you say the example of having no rules in the game is too extreme. Ok, then, here is a less extreme example. Let's say a player buys the wrong armor (too high str req) from Charsi and loses some gold. By your logic, this would end up wasting the player's time since the player must go out and find more gold to buy usable armor. You're basically saying there should be a "free armor" option for those of you who wish to not waste time after making a mistake like that. Then, other players are free to not use the rule by droping the right amount of gold on the gorund by Charsi whenever they take free armor, and let the gold disappear after a while. You're saying people who don't drop their gold on the ground when they wish to use the old pay-for-armor system are lacking willpower.

However; buying any item by accident from vendors also constitutes a mistake, which will cut into your playing time. So every item should be free so players don't have to waste time killing monsters to get their gold back. And players like me who want the old ways of paying for vendor gear should trust ourselves to just drop gold on the ground for everything we buy.

But then, some people have teleport. Those who are not using nigma have to waste their time walking everywhere. It is only fair to have an "option" that everyone starts at lev 1 with enigma with no lev req. If you don't want to use this "option" then you just have to drop the nigma on the ground and walk everywhere. Those who don't drop nigma on the ground lack the willpower to do so.

And killing bosses until lev 95 takes a whole lot of time. For those who wish to do this, they can; however, there should be an "option" so players don't have to waste time killing bosses. Players should be allowed to click a button to get to lev 95 instantly. And the old school players who prefer to kill bosses would only use this button if they lack the willpower.

I'm sorry Swiffer, but no one has this kind of will power. If there is a respec option to help you change builds to kill a boss faster, everyone on bnet is going to use it.

Doesn't this all come down to laziness? If you don't want to rebuild your chr, that means you are a lazy player. Why should all these builds just be handed to you? I don't understand this notion that some of you "don't want to" rebuild. That's really lazy. If it takes 50 hours to rebuild to lev 90 and you don't want to do it, doesn't that mean you're just plain lazy and not very dedicated?

[coldsong]

Etslayer, Nimbostratus, and Approon are 100% right. Their examples can't be made any more clear. We are only looking out for the longevity of the game, whereas pro respec advocates are looking out for themselves, their mistakes and their precious time they don't want "wasted".

Swiffer, you say the example of having no rules in the game is too extreme. Ok, then, here is a less extreme example. Let's say a player buys the wrong armor (too high str req) from Charsi and loses some gold. By your logic, this would end up wasting the player's time since the player must go out and find more gold to buy usable armor. You're basically saying there should be a "free armor" option for those of you who wish to not waste time after making a mistake like that. Then, other players are free to not use the rule by droping the right amount of gold on the gorund by Charsi whenever they take free armor, and let the gold disappear after a while. You're saying people who don't drop their gold on the ground when they wish to use the old pay-for-armor system are lacking willpower.

However; buying any item by accident from vendors also constitutes a mistake, which will cut into your playing time. So every item should be free so players don't have to waste time killing monsters to get their gold back. And players like me who want the old ways of paying for vendor gear should trust ourselves to just drop gold on the ground for everything we buy.

But then, some people have teleport. Those who are not using nigma have to waste their time walking everywhere. It is only fair to have an "option" that everyone starts at lev 1 with enigma with no lev req. If you don't want to use this "option" then you just have to drop the nigma on the ground and walk everywhere. Those who don't drop nigma on the ground lack the willpower to do so.

And killing bosses until lev 95 takes a whole lot of time. For those who wish to do this, they can; however, there should be an "option" so players don't have to waste time killing bosses. Players should be allowed to click a button to get to lev 95 instantly. And the old school players who prefer to kill bosses would only use this button if they lack the willpower.

I'm sorry Swiffer, but no one has this kind of will power. If there is a respec option to help you change builds to kill a boss faster, everyone on bnet is going to use it.

Doesn't this all come down to laziness? If you don't want to rebuild your chr, that means you are a lazy player. Why should all these builds just be handed to you? I don't understand this notion that some of you "don't want to" rebuild. That's really lazy. If it takes 50 hours to rebuild to lev 90 and you don't want to do it, doesn't that mean you're just plain lazy and not very dedicated?

im sorry but you are dumb. if wow didnt have respecs it wouldnt be 1/10th popular as it is.

p.s. in WoW you paid VERY good money for respeccing. same can be done in D3 whether with gold or with boss kill point runes or something

[stillman]

I have a degree in Neuroscience. Only about half of Neuroscience students actually graduate because it is so hard. How can you call me "dumb" when you don't even punctuate or capitalize your sentences?

I haven't played WoW, but it sounds like it is targeted to a younger crowd who will play anything. There are many youths out there; therefore, many WoW players.

[Thyiad]

Keep it civil, please.

No one here is "dumb". They may be "wrong about known game mechanics" or "disagree with your opinion" but not "dumb".

[Approon]

im sorry but you are dumb. if wow didnt have respecs it wouldnt be 1/10th popular as it is.

p.s. in WoW you paid VERY good money for respeccing. same can be done in D3 whether with gold or with boss kill point runes or something

Everywhere i see people taking game mechanics from WoW and saying that we can live without them, and tells other that we cant stick to our old and loved Diablo I & II. Well it seems WoW players cant live with anything else then what they are used to.

Just to make it clear
WoW = MMORPG
Diablo III = Hack n´ Slash RPG

[Rashiminos]

Forced rebuilding is not fun. Neither because you made a few more mistakes.


Either accept the mistake and move on, or learn not to make mistakes... No one is forcing you to fix it anyways...
No Deus Ex Machina for your character's life story.


I have seen some "purists" who complain that there should be no way for people to level as such, etc.. But allow me to say this. This is all OPTIONAL! Meaning if you wish to re-do a char, it is your option whether you want to rush him or go through the game the long way. Please do not impose YOUR beliefs of how the game should be played on others.

Hypothetical situation: Suppose you met someone who was studying Mesoamerican religions and decided to practice human sacrifice in an attempt to curry favor with divine entities. Would you say you should allow this practice because this person has his or her own beliefs and that these beliefs should not be imposed upon? Why should roleplay and immersion be sacrificed for your convenience?


I can agree that having unlimited respecs would be too much. In fact I care less about respecs and more about how I can re-do a char a la D2. It will be fine in the beginning, but if D3 is as playable as D2 was and wants to have the same life span...then they need to factor in these aspects. Otherwise you will see a very small community after a few years.

I bet this "small" community will be more tight-knit and of a substantially better quality.

[Approon]

Forced rebuilding is not fun. Neither because you made a few more mistakes.


Youre implying that forced rebuilding is not fun, because of mistakes.

1. Why would you need a perfect character anyway?
2. No one is forcing you.
3. The best, it seems you want to reach the state of a PERFECT character. Yet respec its quite against that, because if you can respec you cannot reach the point of were youre character cannot be altered, hence perfection (if everything you want are corrent).
4. To get anything perfect i want to make alot of work, if i got a perfect character right away, then why would i need to create a new character or even play the game.

A PERFECT character is i see it is when everything is set in stone and cannot be reversed in any way.

I can try explain it as a painting. A painters draws a wonderful picture that he thinks is perfect, but he knows that the paint will wear of, or smudge if he didnt spray finishing / glue on it to make it seal the color from the air. This makes the painting stand the same for a long time but at the price of not be able to change anything.

Maybe was a bad explanation, but as good as i could get it i think.

[Rashiminos]

Do you know why high deathpenalties in MMORPGs are outdated and not liked by the majority? Nobody likes to make backsteps and no game should force you to do steps back. Blizzard aknowledged this on WoW GD many times and explained it way better then I can do. And this is the same reason why respecs are going into the game and why I like it that way.

"Don't worry about dying, it's not going to change your life permanently."

I like the D&D approach much better than the no actual death approach.


People do not play video games to learn "life lessons". They play video games to enjoy themselves and have fun. And these "blundering idiots" pay the same money as you do, and there are probably more of them than there are "l33t" players like you. ;)


You can also enjoy yourself and have fun by getting legally drunk.


The reason that myself and many others do not want respecs is because it diminishes the game as a WHOLE. Not just for those using it, but it changes the entire gameplay for every single player. Basically what you are saying is that those who want the game to be easy should be allowed to have an easy game, and those who want to play a difficult, meaningful game should create their OWN boundaries! Rediculous. Utterly rediculous. It simply doesn't work that way.

Some people do set their own boundaries. Search for low-level games, or no sphere grid in FFX, and other such personally set restrictions. Some games are just too (expletive) easy. Respecs lower the curve. Wait, let me rephrase that. Respecs lower standards like schools lower required test scores...


So basically you are opposed to this because some people lack the willpower and control to not use an optional feature of the game? You sound like a mothers group.

Sound familiar? Its the same kind of 'think of the children' bull**** we get fed every day thanks to parents being too lazy to actually parent their kids.

Maybe a few individuals have that willpower, but the vast majority demonstrably do not...

I agree with the second statement because it has something to do with it...


And what if you need a pvp built while you were on a pve built? You should be able to respec with out a penalty. Or else you would be limiting your char to one part of the game.

A penalty wouldn't be good anyway. Should be no respec at all or free respec. Pentalies are going to be annoying as someone already mentioned

Why not PvE with the PvP build?
Why not PvP with the PvE build?
Why not make a build that does both reasonably well?

Why must you make your character a lump of clay?

[RedawgTS]

I'd like to make a point for everybody here, both for and against respecs. Blizzard will never include unlimited respecs in D3. Let me repeat that. Blizzard will NEVER include unlimited respecs in D3. Please stop using the same tired examples as to how unlimited respecs will ruin/improve the game. They can't because they won't be there.

Blizzard has been making games for a long time now and they know how to make good games. They may not have always been great games, but I've never seen them make a bad one. Have faith that they will not screw this up.

[Rashiminos]

WoW respecs are limited purely by whether or not you can afford the cost. They start at 1g and ramp up to 50g. Pre-expansion, 50g was substantial, post expansion, you can knock up 50g in a half hour. If i am not mistaken, the last subscriber numbers Blizzard released had WoW at around 10.7 million active accounts, so i don't buy into the theory that respecs make a game shallow and destroy its longevity.

Additional content added after the release of the game has nothing to do with that, of course...

@RedawgTS

Respecs in WoW are virtually unlimited with their cheap gold costs...

[Sein Schatten]

Youre implying that forced rebuilding is not fun, because of mistakes.


So much words... yet you do not know what happens when Blizzard balances their games with patches. That is what I mean with being forced to make a new char. You obviously haven't played D2 or WoW or you would remember it.


Either accept the mistake and move on, or learn not to make mistakes... No one is forcing you to fix it anyways...


Or I can respec and you can choose not to respec. Nonbody is forcing you to respec. Circular argument.


Oh, and stop posting under false pretenses. "I have longevity in mind. You just your own fun." Blatantly false and pretentious.

Respecing is good. Glad, Blizzard has learned from their previous mistakes and knows people want respecs. One must just read WoW GD to understand it. :)

[Rashiminos]

With no respecs, people would just play the exact same type of build as anyone else due to a fear of gimping their character. They would look up builds on forums such as these and copy them exactly.


An irrational fear...

Richard Dean Anderson plays a gimp character. You would know this character as Macgyver.

More importantly, playing a gimp character is challenging and fun. Now if I can just find a mongojerry article in which this concept is demonstrated (oh wait, priceless page temporarily lost in the server shuffle)...

Although googling "Irene the Infirm" and "pacifist necromancer" may be a start...

I know all too well. The problem with WoW is not the game itself. It's the players. Allowing respecs breaks one of the seals on keeping an upright and friendly community. D3 needs that seal intact, since it has repeatedly failed in other areas.

im sorry but you are dumb. if wow didnt have respecs it wouldnt be 1/10th popular as it is.

p.s. in WoW you paid VERY good money for respeccing. same can be done in D3 whether with gold or with boss kill point runes or something

1/10th as popular, maybe...

A game of better quality? Certainly.

Popularity is overrated when it doesn't come to money, just like cookie-cutters...


Or I can respec and you can choose not to respec. Nonbody is forcing you to respec. Circular argument.
You're right about no one forcing a respec on me. That isn't my real issue with respeccing though. Respeccing fosters a certain community. One that cheapens and corrupts a game experience like hackers, dupers, and goldfarmers do...



Oh, and stop posting under false pretenses. "I have longevity in mind. You just your own fun." Blatantly false and pretentious.

Respecing is good. Glad, Blizzard has learned from their previous mistakes and knows people want respecs. One must just read WoW GD to understand it. :)

I know all too well. The problem with WoW is not the game itself. It's the players. Allowing respecs breaks one of the seals on keeping an upright and friendly community. D3 needs that seal intact, since it has repeatedly failed in other areas.

[stillman]

Sein Schatten, you're saying Approon has obviously never played d2? That seems a bit outrageous. What is he doing on these dii forums if he's never palyed d2....

Anyway, with having to remake chrs after Blizzard rebalances after patches, it is for the greater good of us all that they do this, even if it means nerfing some of our overpowered builds. Blizzard messes up players in other ways and we just have to deal with it sometimes. When the runes you traded go poof, you could blame Blizzard for not handling the dupe problem, and so on. But d3 will be taken better care of on the new bnet, and maybe they've learned to balance everything right in the first version so we don't get nerfed.

I agree with the above post about better quality of gamers. If people leave becasue they can't respec enough, good riddance.

[ELox]

My opinion has changed. Please read below.

At first I was thinking respecs are a must and should be included. Then I realized I've been playing too much WoW so I thought back to the many years of playing D2 and D1 then I changed my mind.

In WoW respecing is necessary for several reasons.

1) It takes a significantly longer time to level.

2) Said leveling is painfully boring when you've done it all before because the combat is slower and the quests and areas are much more static.

3) The community will only allow certain builds to join them for any end-game content such as raiding or arenas.

Obviously Diablo historically doesn't suffer from these problems. The leveling is much faster, the combat is much funner and the random nature of creatures and layouts that you encounter add a great deal to replayability.

As long as leveling is just as fun in d3 as it was in d1 and d2 then I have no problem with no respecs allowed since it will be a pleasure to re-roll and try out new tactics.

As far as I'm willing to compromise:

If there must be respecing included limit it to one respec per talent tree available for the entire life of the character. This means that if you leveled with your Sorc using lightning then you can respec Fire, Ice, then back to whichever you preferred then that's it. Players can use the 3 respecs to try out each skill tree or they can use it to correct misplaced points. Just no more than 3 times if there's 3 trees.

Reasoning:

The last thing I want is to see people change their build every time they run into something they aren't optimally suited for. If you want to make a character that does maximum fire dmg at the cost of having no points in lightning and cold you shouldn't be able to deal with every situation (i.e. fire immunity). Having too many respecs available will make hybrid characters non-existant. Having fire and ice might mean you can't kill everything as quickly but you are more versatile in immunity situations and it's this kind of depth that respeccing would destroy.

[stillman]

I never even thought of that. Hybrids.

[amusingtugboat]

My opinion has changed. Please read below.

At first I was thinking respecs are a must and should be included. Then I realized I've been playing too much WoW so I thought back to the many years of playing D2 and D1 then I changed my mind.

In WoW respecing is necessary for several reasons.

1) It takes a significantly longer time to level.

2) Said leveling is painfully boring when you've done it all before because the combat is slower and the quests and areas are much more static.

3) The community will only allow certain builds to join them for any end-game content such as raiding or arenas.

Obviously Diablo historically doesn't suffer from these problems. The leveling is much faster, the combat is much funner and the random nature of creatures and layouts that you encounter add a great deal to replayability.

As long as leveling is just as fun in d3 as it was in d1 and d2 then I have no problem with no respecs allowed since it will be a pleasure to re-roll and try out new tactics.

As far as I'm willing to compromise:

If there must be respecing included limit it to one respec per talent tree available for the entire life of the character. This means that if you leveled with your Sorc using lightning then you can respec Fire, Ice, then back to whichever you preferred then that's it. Players can use the 3 respecs to try out each skill tree or they can use it to correct misplaced points. Just no more than 3 times if there's 3 trees.

Reasoning:

The last thing I want is to see people change their build every time they run into something they aren't optimally suited for. If you want to make a character that does maximum fire dmg at the cost of having no points in lightning and cold you shouldn't be able to deal with every situation (i.e. fire immunity). Having too many respecs available will make hybrid characters non-existant. Having fire and ice might mean you can't kill everything as quickly but you are more versatile in immunity situations and it's this kind of depth that respeccing would destroy.

pretty much explains a lot. And why is everyone saying no respec would make everyone just keep making the same cookie cutter builds? How many builds are there in wow that are even playable at lvl 70 without getting booted from parties? like 1-2 per char. Now how about diablo? unlimited nearly.

[etslayer]

im sorry but you are dumb. if wow didnt have respecs it wouldnt be 1/10th popular as it is.

p.s. in WoW you paid VERY good money for respeccing. same can be done in D3 whether with gold or with boss kill point runes or something


See Elox's post to find out why you are in need of a lobotomy.

In short, WoW is a completely different game. Just because respecs work in that game, doesn't mean they work in diablo.

[emandsam]

Alright, after reading nearly every post on this topic I have come to this conclusion. After playing Diablo II exp for the longest time as well as WoW; I first thought I wanted respecs.

However, it is clear to me now that this game should not get the option of a respec (perhaps a one-time screw up which can be fixed as many people suggested by a confirmations message). I think the best part of this game was leveling up a new character-same class as one I already had-but different spec with people, rushed or not. The game is based on loot and acquiring different sets for each of your builds.

As opposed to WoW (has many have already pointed out takes longer to lvl and thus is in need of the option to respec) which also has more classes than Diablo. The lower number of classes in Diablo force us to choose a build in order to the gameplay to seem more varied.

Given how long I have played Diablo II, I have still not played every spec and even though I had stopped playing the game when WoW came out (then I started back up when I quit WoW for a bit, and then went back to WoW). Currently I am not playing Diablo II as I am busy on a research project but I am really tempted now to start up again just to test some builds I have not tried given how old the game is.

[Deckard Cain]

I dislike the idea of unlimited respecs, but there is no doubt in my mind that a few would greatly benefit the game. The only reason i am for respecs is because i imagine that there will be no rushing in D3. I highly doubt the game is going to be simple enough for a player to walk around with level 1 skills, while he saves all of his other skills for higher level ones. I see no harm in giving a character 3 respecs, maybe a quest reward after completing the game in each difficulty. This way players have a chance at completing each difficulty without being carried by friends, and then they can respec once they get to the next difficulty.

On the other hand... if synergies are in the game, and rushing still occurs, i see no reason for respecs to be necessary.

[Okant]

I'd imagine they try to do away with rushing by making the story slightly longer and try to kill the power-leveling by decreasing EXP gained on the lower level end based on the difference of levels between the two players.

Based on my experiences in Diablo (I and II) and WoW, I'd have to agree that WoW needed the ability to respec because of the length of time that the game was played. On average, at least before that patch the sped it up, it would take upwards to a month for an average player to reach max level. And then there is the time it took to acquire gear. In Diablo, you can have a friend hold a piece of armor, weapon, ring, amulet, whatever and transfer that to a character you level up and use it there. Imagine in WoW going through Normal, Nightmare, and then finally Hell difficulties and every single item you ever picked up was stuck permanently on that character. Drop rates are virtually the same. I remember in WoW we went 9 months without getting a single pair of hunter gloves in BWL. If it was like Diablo, I could just simply make a game "brg ds gloves" and get them no problem. My point with that is in Diablo, you can acquire the gear you want based on a certain spec for no problem simply by trading whereas in WoW you had couldn't do that so you were always respecing based on the items you acquired.

The one idea I did like mentioned earlier was respecing once per difficulty. Think of Diablo II now. In Normal, most critters/mobs are just normal. No immunities. In Nightmare, a few more get them. By Hell, tons have them and it really becomes annoying for certain people to really even try anything because they're stuck as a certain spec dealing majority of their damage based on an ability that has been rendered useless now against that immunity.

If not per difficulty, per act, per every 10-15 levels.. Something that has a limit and in the end does force you to reroll assuming you want to try other specs. Just because you're a good trapsin doesn't mean you'll be a good martial arts sin so you should probably level it up anyway to make sure you learn what each ability actually does.

[5zigen]

tellin you.

Respecs would be fine if it cost 1 level worth of exp per point you wanted to refund.

[vendrox]

As all of the other RPGs ever made, Diablo is a big dick contest. And how well you've built and customized your character to be able to take on the most amount of vagina (read challenges) is a direct reflection on how big your dick is.

Can't be any simpler, and some other guy respeccing to make his dick bigger without having to put any kind of effort into it just disgusts me and alot of other people.

[cbr]

vendrox's post is full of truth.


Personally I am totally against respecc, I find it that would kill the game by destroying the replayability of it. Right now you have make many different chars with the same class, but with respecc you can only make 5 chars.

Respecc would make D3 have the same problem as WoW does, after 1-2 years into the game there probably won't be any starter games to speak of, just like in WoW most starting eras are empty. New players would have to solo the game.

The only way I'd accept a respecc is if it's a quest reward, which would give you the ability to reset one of your skill points. A quest per difficulty so that means you'll be able to reset 3 skill points in your characters life, that should be more than enough to fix any chars that had a point misplaced.

Another option would be to allow to reset the skill you just put it, but only that one. This also should fix misplaced skill points.

[Paladuck]

The game doesn't need respecs. In my opinion, no MMO or RPG I have ever played has "NEEDED" respecs, for anyone reason at all.

That doesn't mean I'm against them. What do respecs do essentially? Help you kill differently and more efficiently. I don't see what the problem is with that.

So whether or not they end up having respecs, in whatever form, I don't see it being a big problem.

[Rashiminos]

For those of you who would want respec, do you want an option to change the class of your character instead of leveling another character of a different class?

If so, why?

If not, why not?

[lionheart]

I can deal with my own mistakes if i made any, im fine with that

[Techboss]

The game should have respecs and no rushing. If you remove rushing, I suspect a lot of peoples tune will change with respect to respecing. The current reason, not taking too long to level, is the main reason most don't want respecing. They play through on their first toon and then rush the other 7 and thus don't need to worry about respecing. If you remove rushing, then that person would need to actually play the game 8 times in order to get 8 toons to high level with the various specs.

[vendrox]

I don't know how the drill is for rushing in the current patch, since I haven't played for quite a bit now..

But I like rushing better than respeccing still, since that actually takes some kind of effort to execute. Rather than just hitting the respecc button a couple of time and have a strong character you necessarily don't deserve.

[Techboss]

But I like rushing better than respeccing still, since that actually takes some kind of effort to execute. Rather than just hitting the respecc button a couple of time and have a strong character you necessarily don't deserve.
I'd perfer a system similar to GW, where the more you play, the more talent points you get to move around. If you play a little, you can only move 1 or 2 skill points around. If you play a lot, you can move lots of points around. This means that's there is an effort attached to the respec.

To be honest, based on how Blizzard is acting in WoW currently, they feel everyone deserves top loot and a top level character. The gap between those who put in a lot of effort and those who put in basically no effort is much smaller than it used to be.

[Sein Schatten]

To be honest, based on how Blizzard is acting in WoW currently, they feel everyone deserves top loot and a top level character. The gap between those who put in a lot of effort and those who put in basically no effort is much smaller than it used to be.

It takes months to loose 10 games per week and get Sx items. By the time you have a full set, it is outdated again. ;)

[Rashiminos]

The current reason, not taking too long to level, is the main reason most don't want respecing.

I'd suggest that you re-read the thread.

[vendrox]

I'd perfer a system similar to GW, where the more you play, the more talent points you get to move around. If you play a little, you can only move 1 or 2 skill points around. If you play a lot, you can move lots of points around. This means that's there is an effort attached to the respec.

To be honest, based on how Blizzard is acting in WoW currently, they feel everyone deserves top loot and a top level character. The gap between those who put in a lot of effort and those who put in basically no effort is much smaller than it used to be.

Hmm, I could actually see that system work. But since I'm a hard-necked *******, I vote nay to any kind of respeccing.

Yeah, well all know the mentality of the current Blizzard staff. And fact of the matter is, there will probably be alot of stuff implemented to make it easier to achieve almost on par with hardcore gamers. On the other hand, I am most certain there will be features to distinguish the hardcore gamer from the casual gamer too.. And if there's not, we'll find them.

But we (read I) don't like it.
-
It's kind of off topic rant, but work's boring to bear with me.

[phool]

I'd perfer a system similar to GW, where the more you play, the more talent points you get to move around. If you play a little, you can only move 1 or 2 skill points around. If you play a lot, you can move lots of points around. This means that's there is an effort attached to the respec.

Anet removed 'respec points' extremely quickly, they were really unpopular.

Another idea I don't know if anyone's mentioned yet is respec scrolls.

[vendrox]

Anet removed 'respec points' extremely quickly, they were really unpopular.

Another idea I don't know if anyone's mentioned yet is respec scrolls.

Was mentioned somewhere with the lines of..

One quest per difficulty summing up to 3 scrolls per char, non-tradeable IIRC.

[Techboss]

It takes months to loose 10 games per week and get Sx items. By the time you have a full set, it is outdated again. ;)
This is a personal hot button issue for me, so I'll go ahead and respond even though I suspect your being sarcastic.

Except for PvP, everything else in the game is win or get NOTHING. PvP is win get stuff faster, but if your loose, you still get something eventually. Think of it as if you can't kill Baal, you still get a nice yellow because you tried. Where as if you actually beat him, you'd get 5 yellows. Oh, and that you yellow you got for trying, you get to choose which slot and it's got fairly descent stats. The 5 yellows for killing Baal are all random and have a chance of having crap stats.

[Deckard Cain]

For those of you who would want respec, do you want an option to change the class of your character instead of leveling another character of a different class?

If so, why?

If not, why not?

No.... i feel like everyone here thinks that people want a respec because it is the easy way out instead of levelling an entirely new character. I hope people are taking into consideration that rushing will not be in the game anymore (or atleast i'm fairly positive blizzard will try to avoid it from happening). A respec could make the game more playable instead of saving points for higher level skills and completely sucking in earlier difficulties. A limited respec would not allow "noobs" to just respec their ****ty spec to the cookie cutter one the pros use

[tetracycloide]

This is a personal hot button issue for me, so I'll go ahead and respond even though I suspect your being sarcastic.

Except for PvP, everything else in the game is win or get NOTHING. PvP is win get stuff faster, but if your loose, you still get something eventually. Think of it as if you can't kill Baal, you still get a nice yellow because you tried. Where as if you actually beat him, you'd get 5 yellows. Oh, and that you yellow you got for trying, you get to choose which slot and it's got fairly descent stats. The 5 yellows for killing Baal are all random and have a chance of having crap stats.

If loosing nets you nothing in PvP then why fight if you know you are going to loose? There is a vested interest in a PvP system in keeping people playing no matter how well they are doing. In WoW specifically rating requirements prevent continual failures from aquiring the best gear no matter how many times they fail. There is no precedent in WoW or any other blizzard IP for rewarding poor play with superior gear, only occasional instances of inferior rewards.

[Brother Laz]

you have to understand that in Diablo 2 you could level a character to 70-80 in a few hours worth if you knew what you were doing and had friends to rush you.

In Diablo 3 this may change completely (or so I would hope), meaning that you have to put loads of time in one character before it can come even close to the upper levels of the game.

If this is in fact the case then I know for a fact that many players do not feel like it's worth it creating a new character and spend 50+ hours just so they can try a different build.

No one needs to be level 99 to 'try a different build'. Level 60 is enough.

[Approon]

No.... i feel like everyone here thinks that people want a respec because it is the easy way out instead of levelling an entirely new character. I hope people are taking into consideration that rushing will not be in the game anymore (or atleast i'm fairly positive blizzard will try to avoid it from happening). A respec could make the game more playable instead of saving points for higher level skills and completely sucking in earlier difficulties. A limited respec would not allow "noobs" to just respec their ****ty spec to the cookie cutter one the pros use

You assume that blizzard will stop rushing but you still think that we will have useless skills. I think blizzard will make the skill tree much more interesting and keeping all skills useful in certain situations / encounters.

Simply put, a game without respecs will last longer. If i saw all the skills and used them in just matter of days, my days of Diablo III will surely be over because my biggest enjoyment of Diablo II were the fact that you could make endless amount of crazy builds and that took time, and damm it was well worth it considering items can be traded and shared.

[tetracycloide]

For those of you who would want respec, do you want an option to change the class of your character instead of leveling another character of a different class?

If so, why?

If not, why not?

That's simple, no you should not be able to change the class of your character instead of leveling another character of a different class.

Leveling a character of any class introduces you to the tools available to that class at a very metered rate. You do not have full access to all of your abilities from the word go and when each ability is given to you individually you play around with it a little and learn how and when to use it, aquiring useful information about the purpose and depth of each ability. Respecing enhances this effect by allowing a character to amp up the power of any one ability so that each player can better explore the scope of each ability. It removes none of the required learning aspects of the game.

Automatically aquiring a character at an advanced level dumps dozens of radically skills on the player's lap at once instead of gradually introducing them in a more controled environment. By removing the mechanic that forces players to use abilities as they aquire them players may miss experiencing the utility of specific abilities.

It's a question of degrees, respecing from one class build to another build for the same class does not alter the paridigm of the class all that much (outside of obscure counter-class builds that will hopefully be shown the door in D3). In short, the learning curve for a respec is dramatically lower than the learning curve of a class change.


Simply put, a game without respecs will last longer.

This is a complete missnomer. The game isn't longer simply because you play through it more often. The game is the same length reguardless of the number of playthroughs.

I also find it difficult to believe that the reason you enjoyed making crazy builds was to replay the same content over and over. I would hope the reason you enjoyed making crazy builds was to see if you could get them to work. Adding respecs would actually increase the number of crazy builds you can try because a crazy build need not be viable while leveling as long as it is viable at the level you respec.