View Full Version : A little worried about PVP
I'm thrilled that Diablo III has finally been announced, and it looks awesome, but I'm worried about PVP (specifically PKing). When you think about it, Diablo has always been about cooperative play with an added twist: PKers. In Diablo you could hostile other players who were right next to you and attack them, and in Diablo II players were again given the option of hostiling other players and attacking them without their consent. Obviously, this was something that the original Diablo team wanted; and it's something that makes Diablo, well, Diablo. And I'm worried Blizzard has done away with it in Diablo III. I guess we'll see what happens.
I do hope they make this hostiling without consent stays out of Hardcore play. I hope they at least let people check a box, like the hardcore box, to disallow unwanted hostiling in that mode.
i think itll be fine, everyone is so "worried" about the pvp, and say it looks to "pvm oriented" well duh, they were pvming in the vid
Leohappy
28-06-2008, 11:56
highly unlikely, because it's the pvm vs. pvp balance that keeps D2 going.
i would like to see how they are going to fight hacks, because that's what actually ruins the game (d2) most right now.
Well chubz, even the engine looks not very conducive to PvP. Not fast enough. However, all this can change before release.
i think itll be fine, everyone is so "worried" about the pvp, and say it looks to "pvm oriented" well duh, they were pvming in the vid
I have no problem with Diablo III being PVE-oriented; after all, isn't Diablo supposed to be PVE-oriented? I just hope they don't limit our options by removing the hostility feature. It just wouldn't be Diablo without it.
I doubt there even will be Hardcore mode available. It's really not for today's playerbase. And there is no doubt in my mind that there will be no options for TPPK and such since it's going to be pay-to-play monthly game
I doubt there even will be Hardcore mode available. It's really not for today's playerbase. And there is no doubt in my mind that there will be no options for TPPK and such since it's going to be pay-to-play monthly game
If there's no Hardcore mode, then I won't be getting the game.
And I was afraid this would happen.
I doubt there even will be Hardcore mode available. It's really not for today's playerbase. And there is no doubt in my mind that there will be no options for TPPK and such since it's going to be pay-to-play monthly game
Is it? I thought I heard the guy say that it's gonna be available via Battle.net?
...who says it's going to be pay-to-play? I'm quite sure it's over Bnet...
Severoth
28-06-2008, 12:10
Why are people jumping to conclusions before they have even announced anything. **** just be happy the game is in the pipeline and will be coming out.
Frag-ile
28-06-2008, 12:15
I for one certainly hope there's going to be PVP in the game and for peopel to be able to go hostile against unsuspecting victims and I really hope they'll keep hardcore an option.
Nothing quite as exciting as hunting people in hardcore.
Of course fairness is always a concern and people unwilling to fight would have to have good chances of escaping, which I think they do as it works in d2 today. It's bug exploiting, hacks and cheating that is the problem.
To clarify, when I say PKing I mean legitimate PKing (yes, there used to be such a thing). You know, hostiling a party and chasing after them (this was easier when there wasn't a WP delay after you hostiled another player).
I hope they keep that kind of thing in Diablo III, as well as a Hardcore mode.
ironbarb
28-06-2008, 12:19
http://pc.ign.com/articles/884/884836p1.html
Rob Pardo says there will be PvP (at the update 1:42). But not how it's gonna be
http://pc.ign.com/articles/884/884836p1.html
Rob Pardo says there will be PvP (at the update 1:42). But not how it's gonna be
Thanks for the link.
I was certain there was going to be PVP, but PKing? (*HOSTILE* "TAKE WP TO CANYON OF THE MAGI* And kill two people at once with Blizzard.) I have a feeling there won't be anything like that in Diablo III, unfortunately.
To clarify, when I say PKing I mean legitimate PKing (yes, there used to be such a thing). You know, hostiling a party and chasing after them (this was easier when there wasn't a WP delay after you hostiled another player).
I hope they keep that kind of thing in Diablo III, as well as a Hardcore mode.
If they keep that in place, please set limits. A level 93 pala going after a bunch of leveling 30+ characters is ruining Hardcore for so many people. It is ludicrous. The same goes for the killing by traps placed at waypoints, eugh. I'd rather lose those players in the next game, it will allow more people to play the game with more satisfaction. Blizzard, with their eyes on getting more players to play their game will probably think along those lines as well.
If they keep that in place, please set limits. A level 93 pala going after a bunch of leveling 30+ characters is ruining Hardcore for so many people. It is ludicrous. The same goes for the killing by traps placed at waypoints, eugh. I'd rather lose those players in the next game, it will allow more people to play the game with more satisfaction.
As a Hardcore player, I don't have a problem with any of that.
I have a problem with TPPK, maphack, bots, dupes, et cetera, though.
As a Hardcore player, I don't have a problem with any of that.
I have a problem with TPPK, maphack, bots, dupes, et cetera, though.
I've got a feeling I won't be missing players with your thoughts on fair play in the next installment of the game :thumbup:
I've got a feeling I won't be missing players with your thoughts on fair play in the next installment of the game :thumbup:
My thoughts? Whatever that means. I have to deal with high-level characters messing with my low-level characters, and trapped TPs/WPs as much as anyone. I just don't whine about it. I actually think it's fun. I guess I don't take the game as seriously as you do. :thumbup: In any case, don't get your hopes up. There still may be "unfair" PKing in Diablo III.
My thoughts? Whatever that means. I have to deal with high-level characters messing with my low-level characters, and trapped TPs/WPs as much as anyone. I just don't whine about it. I actually think it's fun. I guess I don't take the game as seriously as you do. :thumbup:
No, but I had to adapt to playing it solo, or with known people to make sure it didn't happen.
To me one of the joys of a game like this is meeting new people and having fun for a while whenever and however you want. I think I'm not in a minority with this view.
No, but I had to adapt to playing it solo, or with known people to make sure it didn't happen.
So what wouldn't happen? PKing? You must have had a tough time because PKing was a big part of Diablo and Diablo II. Maybe the Diablo series isn't for you?
To me one of the joys of a game like this is meeting new people and having fun for a while whenever and however you want. I think I'm not in a minority with this view.
There's nothing wrong with that view, and it doesn't conflict with the hostility button.
So what wouldn't happen? PKing? You must have had a tough time because PKing was a big part of Diablo and Diablo II. Maybe the Diablo series isn't for you?
I have no qualms with it in SC, as it has no consquences.
In hardcore though, I think it is inappropriate. What satisfaction can the lvl 90 sorc get from killing a group of 30+s with one blizzard? We all know the characters get more powerfull with levels, it is just spoiling the game for others. Nothing wrong with countering that.
Leohappy
28-06-2008, 12:50
there will be pvp and there will be hardcore mode. the game itself will not be a MMO.
I have no qualms with it in SC, as it has no consquences.
So, are you against PVP in general in Hardcore mode? Or just PKing in Hardcore mode?
In hardcore though, I think it is inappropriate. What satisfaction can the lvl 90 sorc get from killing a group of 30+s with one blizzard?
Pleasurable satisfaction, I suppose. Killing a group of newbs with Firewall is even more satisfying.
We all know the characters get more powerfull with levels, it is just spoiling the game for others. Nothing wrong with countering that.
I think there's something wrong with that. To prevent things like that from occurring in Hardcore mode, would water the game down and in turn make it less exciting and less rewarding for everyone who plays. People like you make me angry. You should go play Baldur's Gate II on a LAN with your buddies or something, and leave Diablo alone before you have it turned into WOW.
jamesisbest
28-06-2008, 12:58
I am sure they are making sure the pvp will be great before release because it's an important aspect of almost every rpg. Also I'm sure they will have a lot better anti-hack measures like WoW has though it likely won't be perfect (just like most games). I'm hoping they do allow hardcore mode and pking though we will have to see how they address those issues later on. I'm sure we will see a lot more in the coming months.
Pleasurable satisfaction, I suppose. Killing a group of newbs with Firewall is even more satisfying.
This says everything really. If you're hoping for a flamewar, forget it, this is my last post in this thread.
This says everything really. If you're hoping for a flamewar, forget it, this is my last post in this thread.
What -- that I find PKing satisfying? So?
I also find defeating players who are higher than me satisfying as well. Moreoever, I have to deal with PKers as much as anyone in Hardcore mode, but you don't see me whining about it. I actually welcome legitimate PKing. It adds to the excitement and difficulty of Hardcore mode.
coldsong
28-06-2008, 16:10
Erwwwd is what they call a carebear. thankfully blizz doesnt always cater to such
I hope they use some of the system from wow, make realms/games with pvp on as soon as you leave town, also on hardcore games/realms. That did give the adrenalin an extra boost, something I have very rarely felt in playing wow.
But yes, all the hacks dupes and cheating, will have to be stopped totaly in D3 or many players will run away faster than they can say shareholdermeeting.
I just fear that they will make the game way to easy, as they have with wow, with way to many lvl70/99's in just weeks after it hitting the stores.
Lets hope the option for killing off the leechers will be added. :)
And I hope they keep the scalable difficulty that was a brilliant move in D2 (the more in a game the harder mobs gets to kill, the better lot gets )
Perhaps they could add some sort of lvl limit to attacking other players, just to make fights fair, say something in the line of : more than 20lvls between = no attacking?
would be better than no pking at all....
( my favorite was the hydra's, had a sorc with them at lvl 36, now that was fun, enter cowrun, set up hydra's, townportal, read the chat, evil grin )
red-sauce
28-06-2008, 17:07
If you told any hardcore player right now that there won't be hardcore mode or pking in hardcore mode, they won't buy the game. I agree with everything YSM has to say. If you don't want to die from pk, don't play hardcore. Just because you don't agree with it doesn't mean everyone else does. I just think it adds a whole new level of competition to the game.
Eh, I guess Im in the opposite camp as most people in this thread. I wish they would do away with Pking. I like the idea of PvP, but never really understood PKing. I guess I never got satisfaction out of fighting someone who didnt want to fight. Plus its usually pretty easy to get out of a PK by just going to town (outside of hacks and exploits), so the only people that ended up fighting are the people who want to fight...so why not just make it a duel and have both parties consent? Seems like the PKers just want an unfair advantage of taking a guy specifically built and geared for PvP and killing guys who are either built or geared for PvM or are currently unequiped with all their end gear. Why not level the field have have specific PvP fights where both parties are specifically geared and built for it?
Now you might be saying "if its easy to get out of PKing, why does it matter?" And the answer to that is it ruins the PvM of that particular game. I haven't played in awhile, but I remember it being hard to get a really good party together, you know one where everyone was actually working together and not just 5 separate players doing their own thing in a single game. When I finally did get a good game going, it could be ruined by a single person who wanted to PK. Now that hostile is on, friendly TP dont work (been a while since I played, but you cant use friendly TPs right?), and if you don't want to fight, you just sit in town. And then often times, some one in the party leaves the game and brings in a higher level character and everyone just tries to one up each other until it turns into a PvP game. All the while it completely ruins the PvM for those who want to play.
I say, if you want to PvP, thats awesome, but only do it with others who want to.
stillman
28-06-2008, 18:02
Pardo also said something like there's no reason why they wouldn't support hardcore. It sounds like there will be hc, but nothing is certain of course.
coldsong
28-06-2008, 18:03
dont like pking >>> go softcore. discussion closed
SHARMUCK
28-06-2008, 18:13
Why use the phrase "PVP"?
We call it PK.
"PVP" is a poor term used by players of a craptastic game (WoW) that has delayed the production of DIII for far too many years.
But it looks like we finally will have some justice.
I am so pumped!!
dont like pking >>> go softcore. discussion closed
I'm glad you told me this, because for awhile I was thinking that I had my own opinions and thoughts.
I don't think there is a right or wrong for PKing, but I still hope its not present in the D3. I like how the OP laid out the evolution of PKing from D1 to D2; obviously Blizz definitely wants PvP (seems to be confirmed for D3 too), and even suggests their want for PKing. I guess we'll see what Blizz's real intentions for PKing in D3, but its still my hope that it does not show up.
To be honest, I don't even like PKing in softcore. Sure, there are no real bad consequences to dying, but it still ruins the game for PvM. If a person is trying to kill others outside of a duel, Im sure some of those people won't be above naked killing as well. So a good PKer (or a high level PKer) that gets the drop on a party can bring the whole game to a standstill and completely ruin the game for potentially 7 other players.
Maybe this isnt the right thread for it, but I just don't understand the fun of PKing...please explain. Is it the fact that you have the power to ruin other people's fun? Is it the skill involved in killing another player? What exactly is it?
EDIT for SHARMUCK:
I used to play D2 years ago, and back then we distinguished between PvP and PKing (at least I did...and no, I don't play WoW and never did). PvP was when 2 players agreed to fight each other and it became a duel. PK was non-consent where one player hostiled another with the other playing not wanting to fight. Things may have changed since I played though.
Kind of breaking my oath here, but I'm not replying to YSM, but coldsong.
Regarding this:
dont like pking >>> go softcore. discussion closed
do you really think this was the mentality Blizzard were aiming for when they thought of the hardcore idea?
No really?
"If you don't like being pk'ed by a lingering spell cast by a character you don't have a chance of beating after you've been tricked to go there -> play softcore?"
Do you really see it like that? Do you believe the game developers agree with you on that? Do you really believe they will allow this to happen in DIII too, because it was such an important element of DII?
I think hardcore was a very simple, but very brilliant idea that added a lot of value to the entire game. But this mentality, and those few people willing to waste their time doing it, have ruined a large portion of the hardcore experience. There is a small group of pk'ers who are having loads of laughs, saying things like "haha, noob, pwned, OMFG, PWND!", after they have beaten a level 23 ama by placing a firewall over a WP. They are the ones having fun. Must of those they kill however, are not amused.
Wouldn't it be nice to have a game where hardcore = softcore with the added twist that when you die, you stay dead. This is what it was supposed to be.
To make myself perfectly clear: PVP, when consentual, is one of the greatest things there is in Hardcore. Two high-character levels, with their amassed gear, fighting it out until one of them leaves the game for good, is great.
And that is how it should be.
---
Edit for sharmuck:
it is PvP in diablo too, check out this link to a subforum right on this website: linky (http://forums.diabloii.net/forumdisplay.php?f=27)
Maybe this isnt the right thread for it, but I just don't understand the fun of PKing...please explain. Is it the fact that you have the power to ruin other people's fun? Is it the skill involved in killing another player? What exactly is it?
I was a long time diablo2 pvper, high level softcore originally, and stumbled into Hardcore. A friend was making a character and invited me along. We made it to the end of act 2 feeling strong and confident.
While cruising the valley of kings, we were challenged by a lvl 9 paladin. Being level 18, we mocked the foolish paladin. Needless to say, after a relatively short battle, our ears adorned the ground near the den of evil.
I remade a character and whispered him, he showed me the extent of the development of his gear. I had previously had no idea of the level of development that was possible with such low characters. Immediately, an addiction was born.
The true fun for me was assaulting much higher level parties with highly developed low level characters.
Not WP trapping, jumping unsuspecting people, tppk etc...
A challenge, and an announcement of my intentions to hunt the inhabitants of that particular game was always issued, and sufficient time to leave or tp was given.
For example, I used to hunt bloody runs and chaos sanctuary runs with my lvl 9 assassin.
She was packing a scimitar of amp damage and a pelta lunata. After 3 charges, she switched over to a 6 socket ethereal pike for the finisher.
Her best kills were soft targets over lvl 30.
However, low level dueling was where I spent most of my time. Unfortunately, after de-earing the competition for weeks straight, people tended to refuse to duel with a character of comparable lvl class.
As a result, I was forced to make subsequent characters on other accounts, and turn to the PKing of higher level parties.
The thrill of potential, even likely, imminent (and permanent) death at the hands of another player is where it's at.
Crudesash68
28-06-2008, 19:34
I was not a fan of the PvP in D2, and mostly played single player, but I say, to each his own. WoW has PvP or PvE servers for just that reason.
As far as HC goes, if you go into a public game, you are fair game, in my opinion; if I want to keep my gameplay undisturbed, I'll password the game and invite people I anjoy playing with, assuming they keep a similar system in place.
I was a long time diablo2 pvper, ... Cut for space.
See, what you're doing is basically fine I think. You issue a challenge and let people decide if they want to fight you or not by either staying or by leaving/tping to town. Now, why not take this one step further and officially let people decide to fight or not, and have consensual hostile? This official consensual hostile would help the PvM people, cause then they wouldnt have to leave the game or just sit up in town...they could continue to play while whoever wanted to PvP could do their fighting.
I have no problems with PvP at all...I think that should be in the game. Its when one player wants the kill other players and those other players want to play co-op that it turns into a problem. This is what PKing is.
This game IS primarily PvM. PvP should NOT cut into the fun of PvM. It should be a side thing players choose to do.
Someone said before, maybe Diablo isnt for people who dont want PKing. Thats the most backwards thing Ive heard. Diablo is primarily made for PvM...it is secondarily a PvP game. If all you want to do is PvP, maybe Diablo isn't for YOU. Not the other way around. Go play guild wars or something.
As far as HC goes, if you go into a public game, you are fair game, in my opinion; if I want to keep my gameplay undisturbed, I'll password the game and invite people I anjoy playing with, assuming they keep a similar system in place.
I respect your opinion, but I think this destroys the community. Unless you have a large group of friends in real life who already/are going to play Diablo (which I wont have...most of my friends do not play comp games), then how are you gonna get to know anyone in the first place? I like getting to go into random games and meeting people...I don't want to have to confine myself. Thats why I play on Battle.net and NOT a TCP/IP game with my friends.
I don't understand people's dislike for the consensual hostile. Two people want to duke it out, fine, thats perfect, let them.
1 person wants to fight, the 2nd person doesn't. Why should the second person be forced to change his game play to accommodate the first person?
ohnoyellowdinosaur
28-06-2008, 20:53
My thoughts? Whatever that means. I have to deal with high-level characters messing with my low-level characters, and trapped TPs/WPs as much as anyone. I just don't whine about it. I actually think it's fun. I guess I don't take the game as seriously as you do. :thumbup: In any case, don't get your hopes up. There still may be "unfair" PKing in Diablo III.
Just because you think it's fun doesn't mean the general audience of the players do. It's obviously unfair but very easily fixed.
it is bnet as far as i am concerned/know.
To reiterate, I think PKing should be part of Diablo III as much as it was part of Diablo and Diablo II. And there should be a optional Hardcore mode to go with it, making it even spicier.
Let me preface this by saying... "I never PK'd and ALWAYS played Hardcore"
And I STILL believe PK should be in the game... And I'll even give a few reasons why "I" believe this should be the case.
1. Thrills... At least in HC... The thought that at any second some low level throwing barb might follow you into the Sewers about to eat your face... It's scary... but it teaches you to pay attention to players in town and watch what they're up to... I stopped going to places if I was afraid, and just looked for a new game.
2. Removal of "noobs"... Now I use this term just b/c it's well-known. But I believe PKing is a training tool in Hardcore... and I think it makes OUR playerbase BETTER.
3. Watching BAD PKers die to someone else in game.... TOTAL WIN.
Just my $.02
Oh... And as always... Illegit PK is stupid and should be handled... But the legit stuff is what makes us better Diablo players.
To reiterate, I think PKing should be part of Diablo III as much as it was part of Diablo and Diablo II. And there should be a optional Hardcore mode to go with it, making it even spicier.
Not my taste personally:coffee:, but I don't think PK should be removed either. And, as far as I can tell, private parties function well.
I would like a kick/ban function In-Game tho. Similar to OP channels. Since that would be fun for those of us that would enjoy that.:wave:
But the legit stuff is what makes us better Diablo players.
Better at what? I can go through the whole game and get good at Hardcore PvM and know how to rally cows and take them down without trapping or getting myself killed. And eventually get to a high level with good gear. Does this mean Im not a "good" Diablo player because I never engage in PvP or PKing?
Is this game based on Competitive play or Cooperative play? If it were a competitive game, I could understand the idea of a good Diablo player versus a bad one...but seeing as its mostly a cooperative game, I don't see how avoiding PKers by sitting in town or quiting the game makes you a better player. What helps you kill computer based monsters doesn't help kill player based characters. Which is why they should be separate.
I do like Barloc's idea of kicking from games though. PKer shows up, and if the maker of the game doesn't want that in his/her game, boot the PKer. If the maker likes PKing, let him stay. This is essentially the idea of consensual hostile.
Keep PK. But make it a Permanent Character Mode. If you choose to be a PKer, you're character will always be hostile towards everyone/thing. No more hostiling; if you join a game, people can see that you're set to Hostile. Or given that the game can do transformations and limit players to seeing only certain things (i.e. loot) along with dynamic scripting anywhere, they can perform an Event change. Take a hostile player and change him into a mini boss of some kind, who upon its death drops all its gear. As far as death for non-PK characters go, B.Net creates a new lvl 1 character of the same class for them with the gear they had when they died. They lose on everything except the gear. I think that's a sufficient enough punishment in HC for dying.
As far as the high levels picking on low levels, that's what the level limits are for. Perhaps in D3, they're make it built in so there's no more lvl 90s coming into lvl 10 games.
Oh, grand... I feel my inner-Diablo (triggered by ignorance, incompetence and stupidity) clawing its way to the surface.
One thing that always irked me about PKing was that 95% of them were at a considerably higher level than myself, so in an attempt to make things fair, I would exit the game and return with an equal-leveled character, to which the PKer would often respond with an exit. Pathetic.
Anyway, PKing has always plagued, degraded, and belittled the multiplayer atmosphere of Diablo.
Why should the enjoyment of the individuals who seek to play this game fairly be plagued by someone with too much time on their hands?
Hardcore players are supposed to be those who place to true care and commitment for the game. How do you justify their chances being ruined by a character sixty or so levels above their own? How exactly is it fair or in any way respectful to FORCE that person to either duel or leave the game?
It's cheap, tasteless entertainment and one of the most brain-dead attempts at justifying "fun" I've ever encountered throughout my history as a gamer. It has absolutely no redeeming values whatsoever. It's an aspect that could be slapped onto any game, and at some point, there'll be individuals out there to defend it. Unfortunately, their vocabulary and attempts to justify it are limited to "Because I think it's fun," or "Because it's a part of the game. If you don't think so, this game isn't for you". Simple concept: enjoyment should never overshadow fairness.
Pleasurable satisfaction, I suppose. Killing a group of newbs with Firewall is even more satisfying. Case in point. Also, I find it amusing how you, like so many others, seem to instigate that just because someone is at a considerably lower level than a PKer, they're immediately classified as "newbs".
Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining about PKing per se, rather I'm complaining about and trying to understand how anyone could justify it. As I said, their responses are no different than any other malevolent individual trying to justify their equally malevolent action(s).
PK'ing is what ruined the b.net multiplayer for a hell of a lot of people. And you can bet Blizzard are very well aware that a very vast majority of players of Diablo II hated PK'ing and wanted it removed from the game.
If there's any legitimate way to PK someone in D3 (exploits don't count) then I'll eat my hat. I'd be stunned if they allowed such a clearly broken mechanic back into the game.
coldsong
29-06-2008, 01:30
let me repeat... don't like PKing - SC is -----------> thataway
marshmallow
29-06-2008, 01:38
Three issues with Diablo 2 always slightly amused me:
1. People like to play hardcore. That amazes me. I can see where the thrill comes from but...to each his own.
2. People (e.g. see this thread) who complain about getting PKed. Are we playing the same game? I can think of maybe three instances over my entire D2 career where a public leveling game was ruined by a pker. Solution? Make a new game. If you're a low level and he's a high level put on level limits but even then the thought of having to worry about that is completely alien to me.
3. People ENJOY PvPing! I always abused those public duel games for items/key runs while everyone was busy um, "fighting." Because D2 lends itself to that, right?
let me repeat... don't like PKing - SC is -----------> thatawayThat isn't a solution to the problem so repeating it is pointless.
Hardcore is about having one life and challenging Hell's minions to take it away from you. It's not about some 13 year old kid exploiting a game mechanic to kill you.
Nobody should have to not play Hardcore because of griefers. It's a poor argument.
casserole
29-06-2008, 01:58
I do like Barloc's idea of kicking from games though. PKer shows up, and if the maker of the game doesn't want that in his/her game, boot the PKer. If the maker likes PKing, let him stay. This is essentially the idea of consensual hostile.
There might be a way to do this, but in about 20 seconds I thought of a way to exploit that ability. I create a game for farming a boss and you join it. We run through the area and as soon as a valuable item drops, click, you've been booted by me.
Honestly, I'd like it best if both parties had to consent to pvp before it was allowed. Otherwise, you will always have pk'ers infringing upon a player's ability to enjoy their game.
Garisdacar
29-06-2008, 02:03
players should have to jointly hostile each other to pvp. it's ridiculous that i can't play in public hardcore games trying to actually play the game.
One thing that always irked me about PKing was that 95% of them were at a considerably higher level than myself, so in an attempt to make things fair, I would exit the game and return with an equal-leveled character, to which the PKer would often respond with an exit. Pathetic.
So?
Anyway, PKing has always plagued, degraded, and belittled the multiplayer atmosphere of Diablo.
This is called circular reasoning. "PKing degrades Diablo because PKing is... uh, bad -- yeah." Next time, try to come up with some creative & logical reasons as to how PKing degrades the Diablo experience. Secondly, your opinion regarding PKing almost crumbles on itself because PKing is a Diablo experience. It's one of the things that makes it Diablo. PKing was in Diablo and Diablo II; evidently, the original team behind Diablo disagreed with your sentiment towards PKing.
Why should the enjoyment of the individuals who seek to play this game fairly be plagued by someone with too much time on their hands?
So, now you're attacking the PKer personally, and you accuse them of having too much time on their hands. We're talking about a videogame here, aren't we? Ergo you're being ridiculous. Moreover, PKing was and still is part of the Diablo experience because the developers of the game allowed it to be. So, attemping to make the argument that it "ruins your game experience" is completely illogical when talking about Diablo.
Hardcore players are supposed to be those who place to true care and commitment for the game. How do you justify their chances being ruined by a character sixty or so levels above their own?
It needs no justification because it's a part of the game.
How exactly is it fair or in any way respectful to FORCE that person to either duel or leave the game?
It's part of the experience of the Diablo universe, and you can do the same to others. Whether you think it's respectful or not is irrelevant. If you personally think it's disrespectful to PK, then don't PK; you have that option. Asking the developers to take away more freedom from the players in an effort to impose what you think is fair on everyone, makes for a watered-down and homogenous game.
Case in point.
I like PKing. So what? And contrary to what you may believe, PKers don't always go after characters lower than themselves.
Also, I find it amusing how you, like so many others, seem to instigate that just because someone is at a considerably lower level than a PKer, they're immediately classified as "newbs".
When I used the term newb, I meant it in a level-sense. Calm down.
PK'ing is what ruined the b.net multiplayer for a hell of a lot of people.
It really bugs me when people speak on behalf of other people, especially an entire videogame community.
If you're talking about TPPK, which is an exploit that could have been easily fixed, then I agree with you. TPPKing did ruin Diablo II.
And you can bet Blizzard are very well aware that a very vast majority of players of Diablo II hated PK'ing and wanted it removed from the game.
Again, you're talking nonsense and arrogantly speaking on behalf of hundreds of thousands of people.
If there's any legitimate way to PK someone in D3 (exploits don't count) then I'll eat my hat.
I don't even know what this means. You can find legitimate PKing going on in Diablo II. Things like TPPK could have easily been avoided and/or fixed by Blizzard.
Hardcore is about having one life and challenging Hell's minions to take it away from you.
Or another player. The hostility button exists in Diablo and Diablo II for a reason.
It's not about some 13 year old kid exploiting a game mechanic to kill you.
Nobody should have to not play Hardcore because of griefers.
Not all PKs are the result of TPPK, or other exploits (e.g. town kill). Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you have a problem with people who exploit the game and kill your character, not PKing per se.
tey cud just make it so player a hostiles player b but player b must click accept hostile... done... u cant unconsent hostile wit tis
u cant camp to kill ppl wit blizz cuz tey dunt accept hostile
u cant force em to fight or leave game
TUSigmaChi
29-06-2008, 05:04
[QUOTE=YSM;6572525]
This is called circular reasoning. "PKing degrades Diablo because PKing is... uh, bad -- yeah." Next time, try to come up with some creative & logical reasons as to how PKing degrades the Diablo experience. Secondly, your opinion regarding PKing almost crumbles on itself because PKing is a Diablo experience. It's one of the things that makes it Diablo. PKing was in Diablo and Diablo II; evidently, the original team behind Diablo disagreed with your sentiment towards PKing.
Yet the original team for the game is no longer involved with this one.
There will be drastic differences between this iteration of Diablo and those that preceded it. They will take into account the differences of those new to the world of Diablo and those who are experienced.
There will likely be (at least) 8 years of change between d2 and d3, thus those who were 16 when d2 came out are now 24 and the new 16 yo's will not have played the original games.
PK and PvP will be different and rightly should be in order to preserve the "inclusiveness" of the diablo franchise, which is click and kill, making it easier for everyone to jump right into the universe. This concept is best shown in the in game video in which the speaker says "the whole game could be conceivably played just using the mouse."
If you want to run around and kill other players, awesome! But don't make someone lose their hard earned character without A) having consent, or B) knowing what they are getting themselves into.
Hmmm, I think we're slightly getting off topic. This is supposed to be debating the new game, not what was good or bad in the old game. There are those who believe that PKing should stay and those that believe it should not. Using the argument that past Diablo games had it should not be used to justify it being in the new game.
By YSM's logic, since PKing was a part of D1 and D2, and because the fact that he always had to deal with it too, makes it acceptable to PK. Well, in that case, Im using his strategy to defend duping and hacking. In D1 and D2, duping and hacking were rampant...everyone had to deal with it and it was in previous games, so Im hoping its around in D3. Extreme example, but the point is Blizzard is constantly changing their games trying to improve it. Your positive experiences may have been defined by PKing, but mine weren't and Im guessing most people's weren't as well. I can't defend this with any statistics, but the fact that blizzard employees state (as do you) that the game is primarily a co-operative game leads me to believe that a majority of the people play it for the co-op, not the pking.
The games are an evolution...Blizz will be the final decision on what their games were meant to be (whether or not the PKing experience was intended or not). Just because it was present in the first or second game, doesn't necessarily mean they intended it for that purpose. They make mistakes too and they revise it. Notice in D1 no one had to be notified of being hostile, but they changed that in D2. They may realize how much PKing ruins PvM and change it yet again in D3. Which is what I hope they do.
I've been staying away from saying anything personally about you YSM, but from what I can tell, the pleasure you get from PKing comes from killing other players when they don't want to fight, right? This has nothing to do about the skill involved in fair duel or the "hunt", you specifically derive pleasure from ruining another's experience? You don't like the idea of consensual hostile, you enjoy killing characters much lower than yourself, and you seem to condone running when a player brings in someone of similar level to duel. You seem to only want to play when you are guaranteed to win.
If this is the case, I really hope Blizzard changes the game in ANY way to make you not want to play. I don't want to have to bother with people like that.
This is called circular reasoning. "PKing degrades Diablo because PKing is... uh, bad -- yeah." Next time, try to come up with some creative & logical reasons as to how PKing degrades the Diablo experience.
How about, it ruins public games and it slows down the community building? Again, I'm not blizzard, so I don't know if their intent was the build a strong community or to build one based on paranoia and private games. I guess we'll see.
It really bugs me when people speak on behalf of other people, especially an entire videogame community......Again, you're talking nonsense and arrogantly speaking on behalf of hundreds of thousands of people.
Oh, and just to point out, everyone tends to slip and make broad generalizations every now and then, even you.
I think there's something wrong with that. To prevent things like that from occurring in Hardcore mode, would water the game down and in turn make it less exciting and less rewarding for everyone who plays.
There might be a way to do this, but in about 20 seconds I thought of a way to exploit that ability. I create a game for farming a boss and you join it. We run through the area and as soon as a valuable item drops, click, you've been booted by me.
Touche
People (e.g. see this thread) who complain about getting PKed. Are we playing the same game? I can think of maybe three instances over my entire D2 career where a public leveling game was ruined by a pker. Solution? Make a new game. If you're a low level and he's a high level put on level limits but even then the thought of having to worry about that is completely alien to me.
Uh, I guess we ARENT playing the same game. I can think of 4 games in ONE NIGHT that got ruined by a PKer (span of 2-3 hours). Different PKers at that. Its really annoying to be 3/4 through a quest and have to start over. Especially when we are playing through without being twinked or rushed....quests can take a long time like this.
Yet the original team for the game is no longer involved with this one.
What's your point?
That's not a good thing, by the way. Diablo 1 and 2 are awesome games and it's unfortunate Diablo III will be made into WOW part II, or World of Warcraft: Between Queues.
They will take into account the differences of those new to the world of Diablo and those who are experienced.
Yes, they'll appeal to the lowest common denominator and create an empty shell of a Diablo game.
PK and PvP will be different and rightly should be in order to preserve the "inclusiveness" of the diablo franchise, which is click and kill, making it easier for everyone to jump right into the universe.
Yes, they'll water it down and retard it to such a degree that even a monkey could play it. That's also not a good thing, by the way.
But don't make someone lose their hard earned character without A) having consent, or B) knowing what they are getting themselves into.
I think the fact that the hostility button exists, the warning before creating a HC character and the noise the game makes when someone hostiles you would be enough to let you know what you're getting into, or what you've gotten into.
Using the argument that past Diablo games had it should not be used to justify it being in the new game.
That's not what I'm saying at all. My point was simply that the original creators of Diablo evidently had no problem with PKing, and part of the Diablo experience is about watching out for PKs. This new game Diablo III will have the Diablo name, but not the spirit, if Blizzard continues down the path I think they're going down.
Extreme example, but the point is Blizzard is constantly changing their games trying to improve it.
How many patches and years did Blizzard spend on Diablo and Diablo II? They both allow for PKs.
And not all change is good.
Your positive experiences may have been defined by PKing, but mine weren't and Im guessing most people's weren't as well.
Let's just talk about ourselves and not on behalf of the community.
I can't defend this with any statistics, but the fact that blizzard employees state (as do you) that the game is primarily a co-operative game leads me to believe that a majority of the people play it for the co-op, not the pking.
That doesn't mean anything because Diablo and Diablo II were also cooperative games. They just had more freedom in them (or maybe not, we'll see).
The games are an evolution...Blizz will be the final decision on what their games were meant to be (whether or not the PKing experience was intended or not).
Again, I ask, how many years did it take to develop Diablo and Diablo II, LOD, and their subsequent patches? Evidently, PKing was supposed to be part of the game.
Just because it was present in the first or second game, doesn't necessarily mean they intended it for that purpose.
If they didn't, then they're incredibly stupid, which I don't think they are. Instead, I think they had every intention to allow players to PK others if they so desire because they thought it added something desirable to the game.
I've been staying away from saying anything personally about you YSM, but from what I can tell, the pleasure you get from PKing comes from killing other players when they don't want to fight, right?
No, it's not that black and white. I like to duel as well, but let's see what you have to say... It will most likely be along the lines of "You must be 10!" "You're twisted!" "You like ruining people's fun!" "You like to kill unfairly!"
This has nothing to do about the skill involved in fair duel or the "hunt", you specifically derive pleasure from ruining another's experience?
Ruining experiences? I thought I already made the point that PKing is part of the Diablo experience. In any case, you're a very simple-minded individual who likes to categorize people. Like I said previously, it's not either/or. I like fair duels, unfair duels, PKing, being chased by PKs, et cetera. I think it's all exciting.
You don't like the idea of consensual hostile, you enjoy killing characters much lower than yourself
I do, but it's more rewarding to kill players higher than myself.
and you seem to condone running when a player brings in someone of similar level to duel.
No, I duel and kill them too.
How about, it ruins public games and it slows down the community building?
If you were exclusively talking about TPPKing, then I would agree.
I think legitimate PKing would strengthen the community, create drama and make the game more difficult. Guilds would be formed to combat PKers, bounties would be put up, et cetera. The game would be more fun and interesting.
Intolerance
29-06-2008, 05:41
Do you guys really enjoy putting a ton of time into a debate that will change nobody's mind?
JadeSelket
29-06-2008, 06:05
Blizzard has always been good with Pvp. I already see some of the things I love about Diablo I and II in the trailers so I don't think we have much to worry about. *Oozing with excitement..oozing is a pretty gross word but whatever*
it wont be Pay to play we can all count on that battlenet to bring us free play. and i think itll be the same as D2 online
That's not what I'm saying at all. My point was simply that the original creators of Diablo evidently had no problem with PKing, and part of the Diablo experience is about watching out for PKs. This new game Diablo III will have the Diablo name, but not the spirit, if Blizzard continues down the path I think they're going down.
If they do take it out, and if we're just talking about you and me, then fine...it wont be a diablo game to you, but it will be a diablo game to me. And Im fine with that. My definition of Diablo does not rely on PKing.
How many patches and years did Blizzard spend on Diablo and Diablo II? They both allow for PKs.
Patches...eh, I don't know anything about programming and creating a game, so I really don't know if a patch would be able to completely take out a section of the game. As for the development cycle, they obviously changed it from D1 to D2, so they might not be done changing it.
Let's just talk about ourselves and not on behalf of the community.
Sounds good to me.
That doesn't mean anything because Diablo and Diablo II were also cooperative games. They just had more freedom in them (or maybe not, we'll see).
Again, I ask, how many years did it take to develop Diablo and Diablo II, LOD, and their subsequent patches? Evidently, PKing was supposed to be part of the game.
Like I said, they're changing the game, and obviously restricted the freedom to PK from D1 to D2, so they might restrict it even more or take it out. What was in the past does not represent the idealized version of the game.
If they didn't, then they're incredibly stupid, which I don't think they are. Instead, I think they had every intention to allow players to PK others if they so desire because they thought it added something desirable to the game.
I definitely wouldnt say this. They created a game and unleashed it on millions of players. It was bound to happen that these millions of people would think of things the would exploit or simply misuse certain aspects of the game. Furthermore, sometimes they simply misjudge how fun a certain aspect of the game will be. Diablo is a great game, but its not perfect...there are areas of improvement.
No, it's not that black and white. I like to duel as well, but let's see what you have to say... It will most likely be along the lines of "You must be 10!" "You're twisted!" "You like ruining people's fun!" "You like to kill unfairly!"
Yes, basically, that is what I would say. I wouldn't have said you're 10 or twisted (this is only a game), but I would say you like ruining people's fun and that you like to kill unfairly. I think that means you're either really bored, immature, or just get your jollies in different ways than me. To each his own, but I hope Blizzard is not catering a game to those who do enjoy this sort of stuff. I would hope their focus is on fair play.
Ruining experiences? I thought I already made the point that PKing is part of the Diablo experience.
And I thought I already made the point that while it is part of the D1 and D2 experience, that does not justify it being part of the D3 experience. Lets take a theoretical trip...its 1999, people have been playing D1 for 2 years, and D2 is on the verge of being released. There a great debate happening in the diablo.net forums about PKing and friendly fire. YSMJr is saying that "look, obviously friendly fire and unannounced hostiles will be in D2 because the developers wanted it in there. We've gone through patches and its all still there, so obviously it should be in D2. It wouldn't be a diablo game if you didnt have to constantly be afraid of a traitor in our midst or be afraid a sorcerer was going to accidentally fire a fireball up the warrior's a-hole. Its part of the Diablo experience"
Guess what, they changed the Pk and they took out friendly fire. Yes, friendly fire was INTENDED for D1. It did not pan out like they wanted to, so they dropped it. There was obviously a mistake with the hostile function in D1, so they changed it. But whos to say that what they created the second time was perfect? They might realized that PKing in D2, even with announced hostile, did not pan out like they wanted to, so they might drop it in D3. Even if it was part of the D2 experience.
Whether or not the player community found it fun like it was supposed to be, I can't say and you can't say. Obviously our personal opinions differ on this subject. So if enough people let blizzard know they didn't like it, then they'll probably change it and people like you will be disappointed. Or if there was a resounding support for PKing, then it'll show up again in D3, and people like me will be disappointed.
In any case, you're a very simple-minded individual, who likes to categorize people. Like I said previously, it's not either/or. I like fair duels, unfair duels, PKing, being chased by PKs, et cetera. I think it's all exciting
I never said you didn't like fair duels or normal dueling. I was just pointing out the fact that you thrive on the unfair aspects. I don't need to characterize you...you already did that yourself.
I think legitimate PKing would strengthen the community, create drama and make the game more difficult. Guilds are formed to combat PKers, bounties are put up, et cetera.
You'll get no argument from me that it creates drama and increased difficulty. It may even increase aspects of the community such as PK fighting guilds, but you can't deny that it also hinders the community when people refuse to play in public games.
Do you guys really enjoy putting a ton of time into a debate that will change nobody's mind?
Kind of :) But I'll stop replying soon cause its obvious its just a matter of differing opinion, ha.
Well, I'm going to stop arguing now because it has now devolved into "no!" "yes!" "no!" "yes!". I'm just wasting my time. It's annoying when people misinterpret what you write whether intentionally or not, and then proceed to attack the newly-formed argument that they had created (i.e. strawman argument fallacy). And even more annoying when people ignore common sense altogether. How could someone figure that Blizzard did not want PKing in Diablo and Diablo II? Or that Diablo III wouldn't be as Diablo-esque as it's predecessors due to the fact that there's no PKing. It doesn't make any sense.
Reading these last few pages, I saw no straw-man from Q33. While your latest statement, in fact, is dangerously close to one.
As far as my 2 cents goes: While I like the idea of PK'ing, I feel it is difficult to include it into hardcore legitimately without ruining the experience for many people. My last few years in Hardcore have been restricted to playing in private games only, as I have lost too many characters to PKers. While I have little problem with a PK'er entering a game and declaring hostility, I DO have a problem with someone pretending to be a friend and rapidly becoming hostile after having discerned my location and status. To whoever mentioned having 2-3 hours of quest time ruined by a single PK, I, too, feel your frustration.
Reading these last few pages, I saw no straw-man from Q33. While your latest statement, in fact, is dangerously close to one.
And I presume you agree with him.
So, it doesn't surprise me in the least bit that you can't see one. This right here is a stawman, whether intentional, or not:
Using the argument that past Diablo games had it should not be used to justify it being in the new game.
Because I never made that argument. That's something he created.
Moreover, QQ is making tons of implications against me. I'm sure you don't see those, either, right? Like this one:
My definition of Diablo does not rely on PKing.
Which implies that my definition of Diablo relies on PKing.
It does not. PKing is just a large aspect of what makes Diablo, Diablo.
As far as my 2 cents goes: While I like the idea of PK'ing, I feel it is difficult to include it into hardcore legitimately without ruining the experience for many people.
Another guy who speaks on behalf of the Diablo community. I play Hardcore and I thnk PKing adds to the mode's difficulty, which in turn makes it more enjoyable for me.
My last few years in Hardcore have been restricted to playing in private games only, as I have lost too many characters to PKers. While I have little problem with a PK'er entering a game and declaring hostility, I DO have a problem with someone pretending to be a friend and rapidly becoming hostile after having discerned my location and status.
No offense, but if you're just playing in private games all the time, afraid that someone might party with you, find your location, hostile and come after you, then Hardcore isn't for you. If you were talking about TPPK, then I could understand, but you're not.
Well, Im done with this thread as well. I think my point is pretty clear, whether you agree with it or not. Its most likely going to be closed soon as it looks like its going to devolve into personal attacks soon. Not saying that it will, but it seem to be teetering on the edge. I won't bother replying to the strawman accusation, because I'll let everyone make their own opinion on that if I did or did not do that.
Just wanted to say thanks to xZerasx for stating his opinion.
stillman
29-06-2008, 07:08
Has anyone done some leveling in D2 using a duel game for maximum exp gain? Have you ever just sat back and listened to their wheelings and dealings? Man, I tell you it's a watering hole for immature brats who do nothing but trash talk to each other for every action. I'm sure there are some VERY FEW duelers who don't duel this way, but in all the games I've seen, duelers are lowly pathetic scum. I wouldn't mind one bit if dueling went away forever. If 90+ percent of duelers are going to just swear at each other and be total jerks, then why is removing dueling a bad thing? Keep in mind, I'm not bashing the duelers in this forum, but just the behavior of what I've seen in D2.
Likewise, the hunt aspect of PvP also seems to dwell on the negative. I think you have to cater to the 7 people in a group who are trying to get something done rather than the one person who wants to ruin it all for them. What is more important, keeping 7 people happy, or keeping the one PKer happy? The answer is the 7 people. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. As for leaving the game, creating a private game, etc to solve the problem, this leads to spamming games and makes it harder for cooperativity, meetign people etc.
Imo, dueling is the blackest, worst, most disgusting feature in D2.
Well, Im done with this thread as well. I think my point is pretty clear, whether you agree with it or not.
You never made any points, though. That's what's so frustrating.
Diablo and Diablo II both allow PKing. Blizzard could have removed the option of PKing completely with Diablo II, or even in patches after it's release if they wanted, but they decided not to. This decision on their part created a certain kind of atmosphere in Diablo and Diablo II, and this atmosphere may not be replicated in Diablo III due to whiners like you, and also because the original Diablo team doesn't exist anymore; meaning, this next installment of the series will have less of the Diablo spirit. It's going to be a shell of a Diablo game. This is not mere opinion; it's irrefutable fact.
Its most likely going to be closed soon as it looks like its going to devolve into personal attacks soon.
You already personally attacked me in a very catty manner the first time you posted to me.
Just wanted to say thanks to xZerasx for stating his opinion.
Yeah, because he agrees with you, so his opinion means something. What's the point of giving him a virtual pat on the back? Do you think that helps your argument? You two are like middle school girls passing notes to each other in gym class.
Diablo relies on PKing.
i dont think this really made diablo stand out at all....i mean it was very cool PvP was amazing but just attack random people? not quite. but im sure that they will include an option to when you create a room or game that youll be able to turn that feature on or off.
i dont think this really made diablo stand out at all....i mean it was very cool PvP was amazing but just attack random people? not quite. but im sure that they will include an option to when you create a room or game that youll be able to turn that feature on or off.
Could you fully quote me, so you don't confuse people?
I don't care if it made Diablo stand out or not (it did though). PKing is fun.
I wrote "many" to hopefully preclude this exact response. Perhaps I should merely have said "a few". I did not mean to state that a majority of players or the Diablo community had their experience ruined. However, my own play group of 7 friends had similar problems with hardcore. Furthermore, I have seen evidence of my type of play on Battle.net itself.
Anyway...
What you quoted seemed to be in response to this statement by you:
Secondly, your opinion regarding PKing almost crumbles on itself because PKing is a Diablo experience. It's one of the things that makes it Diablo. PKing was in Diablo and Diablo II; evidently, the original team behind Diablo disagreed with your sentiment towards PKing.
From this statement, I come to the same conclusion that Q33 must have.
Furthermore, I don't see where you are going with these "implications". And this:
Which implies that my definition of Diablo relies on PKing.
It does not. PKing is just a large aspect of what makes Diablo, Diablo.
Is just confusing. If something is a subset of something else, it must be included in the definition. So where is that implication wrong?
Lastly, kindly do not be condescending. You seem to decide whether or not hardcore is for me based on your same definition of the Diablo experience. Some do not see this definition as correct.
In fact, I challenge your statement that PvP is a large part of Diablo II. The dueling scene in softcore was largely insignificant compared to the crowd that merely leveled and gathered loot for no real end. I'm sorry if I do not have concrete statistics, but a look at the activity level on the forums, the amount of guides written for both subjects, and just the various games made on B.net will support my case.
It's going to be a shell of a Diablo game. This is not mere opinion; it's irrefutable fact.No, it's an opinion. And a fairly poor one at that. If you think it's going to be a shell of a game then just get out now, seriously. The game is not going to be Diablo 2.5 no matter how much you whine about it.
Diablo 2 didn't stick to the strictures established by the first game. Suggesting Diablo 3 must is lunacy. The game has to evolve or it will die. The changes are only going to become more pronounced as we learn more about it. So, in all seriousness, leave now and save yourself - and those of us genuinely interested in a proper successor to D2 - a whole bunch of time.
I wrote "many" to hopefully preclude this exact response.
Many is not very specific. You were attempting to strengthen your argument by adding in "many people agree with me!" Where are these people? Why speak on behalf of people who aren't here?
What you quoted seemed to be in response to this statement by you:
He implied that I believed Diablo relied on PKing with this: "My definition of Diablo does not rely on PKing."
And he got that from, who knows? Because I never wrote that. I'm simply saying PKing is part of the spirit of Diablo.
You seem to decide whether or not hardcore is for me based on your same definition of the Diablo experience. Some do not see this definition as correct.
I don't care what you think is correct. The game developers wanted PKing in Diablo and Diablo II and they got it. And if you can't handle getting legitimately PKed in Hardcore mode, then you shouldn't be playing it; after all, PKing is a big part of Diablo. That's why you were forced into private games with your buddies. You can't handle the full experience of Diablo II in Hardcore mode.
In fact, I challenge your statement that PvP is a large part of Diablo II.
What do you want me to do, take screenshots of dueling games? What a stupid challenge. Anyone who has played Diablo and Diablo II knows PVP is a pretty big part of it. But how would you know? You play in private games.
No, it's an opinion. And a fairly poor one at that.
It's an opinion that the game developers for Diablo and Diablo II wanted PKing?
No. That's a fact, and the evidence is in the games.
If you think it's going to be a shell of a game then just get out now, seriously.
lik srly? Shouldn't you be in the WOW general forum?
It will be an empy shell of what Diablo once was. No PKing. Respecs. More cartoonish graphics. No confirmed Hardcore mode. I'll keep you updated.
The game is not going to be Diablo 2.5 no matter how much you whine about it.
I want it to be Diablo III, not Disblows, or WOW: In Between Queues, thank you very much.
Diablo 2 didn't stick to the strictures established by the first game.
What are you talking about? Diablo and Diablo II are extremely alike, whilst Diablo II and Diablo III will not be. They're revamping the game, watering it down and making it more "mainstream", so your grandmother with the oxygen tent can play it. No thanks.
I'm not really sure where all the arguments against PKing are stemming from. Fact: Diablo has always had TK's/TKing. It is an integral part of the experience. If you don't like it, go to a different game. The fact that you people stuck around through two games and 12-13 years of it tell me that its not really a big deal. Its either you never really cared too much to begin with or you're too stupid to move on and find a game that better suites your play style.
It's an opinion that the game developers for Diablo and Diablo II wanted PKing?
No. That's a fact, and the evidence is in the games.That might be a fact. That is not what you said though, and you know it.
What are you talking about? Diablo and Diablo II are extremely alike, whilst Diablo II and Diablo III will not be.I can only assume you have not actually played Diablo 1 because the differences between it and Diablo 2 and extremely marked.
They share some things in common but D2 is a very different beast.
They're revamping the game, watering it down and making it more "mainstream", so your grandmother with the oxygen tent can play it. No thanks.So why are you still here? The game clearly doesn't interest you. You've made that very clear.
So leave.
MoUsE_WiZ
29-06-2008, 10:57
Do you guys really enjoy putting a ton of time into a debate that will change nobody's mind?
Totally. It's as if they aren't aware this debate's been going on for years, and threads like this get closed in any of the other forums when they pop up XD
And since I'm bored too:
Pro tip: level restrictions stop level 90 sorcs from pking your level 20.
Hell, they can even stop my 21 from pking your 40-50s in baals XD
Edit: as I've jumped in anyways:
So given that there's a checkbox for keeping the level 90 sorc out of your games, where's the level 90 sorc's checkbox for keeping leechers who steal drops out of their's if the hostile button is gone?
Edit: as I've jumped in anyways:
So given that there's a checkbox for keeping the level 90 sorc out of your games, where's the level 90 sorc's checkbox for keeping leechers who steal drops out of their's if the hostile button is gone?
There will be no more item-stealing in D3 as each player gets to see their own loot and others won't be able to take it.
MoUsE_WiZ
29-06-2008, 13:50
There will be no more item-stealing in D3 as each player gets to see their own loot and others won't be able to take it.
I'm aware of this, but it's kind of beside the point.
We don't know WHAT circumstances may arise where I may want to chase someone out of my game without going private (not even sure it'll have a public/private system, it may be invite to group based), but I'm sure that those circumstances will arise.
coldsong
29-06-2008, 14:27
thank god blizzard doesn't cater to carebears (waaaaaaaaaaaaah i got killezed by a pk, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah unfair!!!)
no pro-pker here is talking about pk hackers. if those do exist we can only hope for blizzard to combat them. Not allowing an amazing feature because you somehow assume based on previous experiences that people will hack the crap out of it.... is dumb. look at wow, there are NO real hacks. all it takes is for the company to care.
thank god blizzard doesn't cater to carebears (waaaaaaaaaaaaah i got killezed by a pk, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah unfair!!!)
no pro-pker here is talking about pk hackers. if those do exist we can only hope for blizzard to combat them. Not allowing an amazing feature because you somehow assume based on previous experiences that people will hack the crap out of it.... is dumb. look at wow, there are NO real hacks. all it takes is for the company to care.
You have inside knowledge of blizzards plans coldsong?
The ability to PK has already been nerfed by Blizzard going from Diablo I to Diablo II(only being able to hostile in town, only after level 9 and the way townportals work).
They effectively took away all options for a "sudden" PK by former party members, except for those exploits with lingering spells/abilities which they probably didn't even think of when making it.
So? Nothing, really. I was just saying that it's upsetting (and pathetic) to have a PKer who wishes to take advantage of the level difference leave when they think they can't win. Rather annoying.
/snip I actually did provide your so-called "logical reasoning as to how PKing degrades the Diablo experience." It's an unfair aspect which violates your freedom of the game, which in turn also ruins public games. You should not be forced to either duel or exit the game. Logical, simple; easy to understand. Whether or not you agree with this is irrelevant; it's the logical reason which you thought I didn't provide.
Now, you insist that because it's an intended game feature which is fun for some, it should therefore exist. Well, that's an interesting logic. Should Blizzard even bother with certain balance issues (such as the overpowered Hammerdins being able to bypass immunities to magic; Iron Maiden, Tomb Vipers, blocking the path to the Worldstone Chamber with bone walls, so forth) when they were supposed to be like this? There are many individuals, after all, who find it immensely exciting and gratifying to prevent others who don't have Enigma from entering the Worldstone.
Just because an aspect or feature is intended, doesn't necessarily make it a good one, or one that should exist.
You believe it adds excitement to the game, which now that you mention it, the bounty example does seem intriguing, but I seriously don't believe it warrants ruining the experience for other players. And this is where this argument between me and you ends. You're going insist that the removal of such a feature would only appeal to the "lowest common denominator, dumb the game down, in turn ruin the experience for others, etc.," to which there is nothing more for me to say. It's obvious this argument will basically swim in circles; we're not going to convince each other otherwise. We'll just wait and see what happens.
Also, I realize that I went overboard with my previous post, to which I apologize. (I was venting in a few of my statements.) I always tend to get overheated regarding this debate (partly because of two frustrating TPPK events on hardcore. Yes, it's an exploit. I understand that. But even so... I already stated my reasons as to why PKing should be purged entirely).
@ Mouse_Wiz:
True, this does help a lot. Sad that I only remembered to use this feature half-way in to my Diablo 2 experience. However there is still the problem of twinks and over-geared PK's.
And I agree - having a hostile button for that purpose is useful. But again, I run into the issue of being chased out of my own game by players that only seek to annoy me and prevent me from playing the game cooperatively with others. While PvP is certainly a part of this game, I think you would agree that for most people, PvM/PvE is a much greater part.
@YSM:
Continuing to insult me and making blanket statements while deriding others for doing the same makes for poor debate. My conversation with you is over.
@All:
Since this seems to be in challenge, note the time period in which I stated I played in private games. After years of frustration and character loss, I have switched to playing only with my own group of friends.
sirwhere
29-06-2008, 16:47
highly unlikely, because it's the pvm vs. pvp balance that keeps D2 going.
i would like to see how they are going to fight hacks, because that's what actually ruins the game (d2) most right now.
agreee. pvp is nice and adds a feature to the game. but hacks royally suck. well, inbalances also suck, but to a lesser extent
This thread is quite interesting read. I don't mind pvp'ing but pking and hacks do make me mad sometimes. Therefore I think that the consent to pvp button is a very good idea.
I can't understand the statement that further restricting PK will spoil the fun for many people. Especially when this comes from people who spoil fun for others.
Furthermore people who defend PKing act like they are the majority players and they also say that the PK is a major part of Diablo 2. Well I don't know about this one but while I was playing HC I haven't encountered many games with pk free for alls (like all 8 players fighting with each other). Usually there is something like this...a group of adventurers in the middle of the run is suddenly hostiled by one palyer and then usually everyone leaves the game.
Sometimes, one or two players will stay to combat PK or someone brings the pkk char and that's it. Doesn't seem like 'majority of players are PKs' for me. It's more like...'majority of players are pvm'. :scratchchin:
Bounties for PKs? This seems very interesting but this is more akin to the mmorpgs not Diablo action RPGs.
And if you like PK------------>Counterstrike is this way.
:smug:
Incredibly frustrating thread. The people who are on the same side of the argument as me are taking what I personally believe to be the wrong approach here.
I've played HC since the first weekend D2 came out. Me and my neighbor stayed up all night beating the game, saw that nightmare was the same stuff and decided we'd see what "hardcore" was. We died that night and haven't touched SC since. I don't duel, I don't PK but I love that PK is a part of the game. let me elaborate right now so we all have this plain in our minds - I'M TALKING ABOUT LEGIT PK, NOT TPPK OR EXPLOITS OF WAYPOINT TIMERS OR EVEN THE TRAP/HYDRA PK FROM WITHIN TOWN THAT PEOPLE KEEP BRINGING UP FOR SOME REASON.
Legit PK goes down like this in my experience...
1.) A group of people create a game, let's call it "Tomb Run-1"
2.) Level 18 Paladin joins "Tomb Run-1"
3.) The people who have played HC for long enough to be cautious check the party screen, see a level 18 Paladin and keep an eye out.
4.) The Paladin hostiles, waits for the WP timer to run out and takes the WP to the Canyon of the Magi.
5.) The PvMers make town portals and wait in town. Sometimes we click that little button that keeps the PK from hearing you and chat a bit, sometimes we go get a drink. 6.) The PKer runs around in the Tombs for a bit, sees nobody is there, goes to town and waits a couple minutes tops. PKer gets bored, there's no point in waiting around all day for people who know you're after them. He goes to a new game, the PvMers go back to Tombs.
There are of course people who flux at the hostile sound or who wait till the pally is right on them before they get out and for those people a game is lost. The rest of the party however simply goes and does something else for 5 minutes and comes back to a PK free game. This has not been the case for a couple years, as Sewer runs have fallen out of favor (easiest PK spot) and TPPK has been rampant, but you can see from this simple example outlined above - based upon hundreds of encounters going exactly this way - that avoiding legit PK is not an issue.
I play solely Hardcore, solely PvM and I love the fact that there are things out there that can actually kill me. I've died once in two ladder seasons PvM, the game has no challenge left anymore in that regard. For most of the people I've personally encountered in the HC community (we're small and tightknit) PK is a blessing, whereas TPPK is a curse. Do us all the favor of not confusing them.
People are making statements based upon the logic that the new features Blizzard will implement (personal loot and the like) will work flawlessly, but yet are assuming that this new game will not enable Blizzard to fix TPPK. This combination of statements is utterly bewildering to me. One on hand you imply that Blizzard can take this opportunity to restructure the game and there will be no consequences as it will be properly tested and patched when necessary and on the other there is the implication that Blizzard can not fix the PK system and it must be done away with, despite the testing and patches necessary to provide a competitive product in todays market.
Personally, we've had a TPPK solution of choice in the Hardcore community (been tossed around a few times and nobody has claimed it would be hard to implement or has suggested a way to break it yet) which involves a hostility NPC. Take Act 2 as an example: TPs appear in the bottom right corner of Lut Gholein, the WP is Top center or so, if you had to hostile with say Warriv or one of the Palace Guards you wouldn't be able to TP and hostile while your Ice Blast was in the air nor would it be easy to exploit the WP timer bug as you'd be too far from the WP to get there before it registered.
Basically, if you give Blizzard the credit to assume they can produce a quality game give them the credit to assume they can do so with PKing as an aspect of said game. Keep the cheaters out, but keep the fear in.
Cheers
-Tai
I really think the highlight of this thread has been the interesting and insightful commentaries by coldsong.
I'm just not sure how consensual pvp will cause such a hardship on the pvp community. Face it, if someone doesn't want to pvp against you, the second you hostile they've already left the game, it's just not worth the risk. The people you hunt down and kill are either, A. willing to fight you, or B. idiots. I don't think removing your ability to kill idiots is really going to be game ending. By not going back to town or leaving they've just consented to PVP for all intents and purposes, consensual pvp already exists. The only difference is now you don't waste 20 minutes of someones time just because they don't consent. Now I guess if your argument is "I love wasting peoples time!" then more power to you, but I don't think it's what the designers are catering towards.
I can only assume you have not actually played Diablo 1 because the differences between it and Diablo 2 and extremely marked.
Extremely marked?
Whatever that means.
I have played Diablo and I stand by my words that it's not much different than Diablo II.
So why are you still here? The game clearly doesn't interest you. You've made that very clear.
Why would I leave? I'm part of the Diablo community as well, and i'm not going to run away simply because Blizzard is making poor decisions. I'm going voice my opinion. Stop being a nazi.
I'M TALKING ABOUT LEGIT PK, NOT TPPK OR EXPLOITS OF WAYPOINT TIMERS OR EVEN THE TRAP/HYDRA PK FROM WITHIN TOWN THAT PEOPLE KEEP BRINGING UP FOR SOME REASON.
Well I think everyone here is talking about PKing in general, not just the exploit ones.
Legit PK goes down like this in my experience...
1.) A group of people create a game, let's call it "Tomb Run-1"
2.) Level 18 Paladin joins "Tomb Run-1"
3.) The people who have played HC for long enough to be cautious check the party screen, see a level 18 Paladin and keep an eye out.
4.) The Paladin hostiles, waits for the WP timer to run out and takes the WP to the Canyon of the Magi.
5.) The PvMers make town portals and wait in town. Sometimes we click that little button that keeps the PK from hearing you and chat a bit, sometimes we go get a drink. 6.) The PKer runs around in the Tombs for a bit, sees nobody is there, goes to town and waits a couple minutes tops. PKer gets bored, there's no point in waiting around all day for people who know you're after them. He goes to a new game, the PvMers go back to Tombs.
Sorry but that just sounds boring. :coffee:
Why would I leave? I'm part of the Diablo community as well, and i'm not going to run away simply because Blizzard is making poor decisions. I'm going voice my opinion. Stop being a nazi.
I invoke Godwin's Law.
I actually did provide your so-called "logical reasoning as to how PKing degrades the Diablo experience." It's an unfair aspect which violates your freedom of the game, which in turn also ruins public games.
It ruins public games for you. And whether it's unfair or not is irrelevant because PKing by definition is unfair; therefore, attempting to make the argument that it's unfair is almost redundant. The spontaneous and "unfair" nature of PKing is what makes it interesting. It breaks up the monotonous routine of killing monsters, looting monsters and turning in quests. Secondly, it was something that was allowed in Diablo and Diablo II by Blizzard (probably for the aforementioned reasons), and it has shaped the atmosphere of Diablo and Diablo II whether you like it or not.
You should not be forced to either duel or exit the game. Logical, simple; easy to understand. Whether or not you agree with this is irrelevant; it's the logical reason which you thought I didn't provide.
That's largely based on mere opinion. For example, I don't share the same problem you have with PKing. I don't care if high levels hostile my low level characters; I just go find another game, or create my own game with level restrictions, or I come back with a higher level, or I sit in games with powerful low-level duelers, and stand next to the WPs I think the PK will use once he hostiles (that's a fun one). I don't need Blizzard to homogenize and restrict their game's mechanics to make it more "fair" for me, like you do.
Just because an aspect or feature is intended, doesn't necessarily make it a good one, or one that should exist.
That's not my argument. My argument is that PKing is part of Diablo and to remove it from the game would make it less like Diablo. It'd turn it into WOW Part Two.
You believe it adds excitement to the game, which now that you mention it, the bounty example does seem intriguing, but I seriously don't believe it warrants ruining the experience for other players.
How many times do I have to reiterate that PKing is part of the experience of Diablo? If you don't like PKing so much, then why do you play the Diablo games? There is a plethora of carebear games out there for you.
Sorry but that just sounds boring.
If PKing was truly boring, then there wouldn't be so many people arguing for the allowance of PKing; and there wouldn't be so many PKers. And if you think PKing is boring, then you must think killing the same monsters, looting the same items and completely the same quests as boring, too.
Well I think everyone here is talking about PKing in general, not just the exploit ones.
That's just it though, people keep talking about Blizzard Sorceresses one shotting a whole party or "lingering spells" killing people in the time it takes to hostile. That's clearly not legit PK they're talking about. True these people may be discussing whether or not ALL forms of PKing should be allowed in D3, but when they use examples of TPPK to explain what's wrong with legit PK claiming that it's "ruining" public Hardcore it's laughable. If you want to discuss whether or not legit PK should exist, feel free but do so with some actual thought behind your arguments.
When people make claims based upon lingering spells like Hydra/Traps which have been patched as if they are currently ruining public games it paints an unrealistic picture that strengthens their arguments based on fallacy. That's my issue, which I thought I made clear by stating that I was discussing the worth of legit PK and not TPPK. This is a statement I feel everyone participating in this should make clear, as one side arguing "TPPK is wrong, thus all PK is wrong" and the other saying "TPPK is wrong, but legit PK is a game feature and fair" will forever be at arms because they continue to see the points of dis-juncture instead of the commonalities between the arguments. We all understand that hacks like TPPK are ruining D2 public games, but honestly legit PKing in hardcore is a very rare occurrence and is easily avoidable to the extent that I would say the people claiming its ruining public games are outright liars.
Waiting in town for a couple minutes for a PKer to leave your game may be a bit boring, this is true. There are many other ways to avoid PK, that just happens to be the easiest and safest and forces gamers to get up for a minute or two every once in a while which I don't see as a bad thing. Personally I find doing endless Baal runs boring, as were cows before them or Meph runs for MF. Being hunted in public games was one of the few things that got my blood pumping when playing D2. If you want a game without PK you are entitled to your wishes, but it seems that a game without legitimate threat on your life please don't claim it's because the alternative is boring.
Cheers
-Tai
I've already specificed early in this thread that I'm arguing for legitimate PKing. (No TPPK, town kill, etc.)
Did you read my post at all? Clearly you weren't using TPPK to argue that we should get rid of all PK
Godwin has been invoked, this thread can end now.
PKs are essential part of HC and there should be no doubts about it. However, in diii I'd like to see some restrictions that will hopefully suit both sides, the calm pvmers and bloodlust pvpers.
I'd say that simple "your attacks do nothing if they were fired / set before pressing hostile button" rule will do.
You cannot hostile people who are - let's say - more than 10 levels behind you. However, low lvls are able to hostile a higher level player. I believe that should do the trick and prevent really "noobish" behaviour, like one 90 vs 10 lvl party pitful attempt.
As for the ruining pvm games with one PK player - well, taking into consideration those rules above, the party will have (possibly :tongue: ) equal chances to fight if they want it.
Beside this, don't forget that in diii we'll (hopefully) have a chance to form groups much bigger than just 8 players. That's gonna be fun, be it pvp or pvm:)
MoUsE_WiZ
29-06-2008, 20:48
The people you hunt down and kill are either, A. willing to fight you, or B. idiots. I don't think removing your ability to kill idiots is really going to be game ending. By not going back to town or leaving they've just consented to PVP for all intents and purposes, consensual pvp already exists.
First off, idiots need to be killed.
That's why HC is HC, the idiot population is rather limited.
Secondly, the PvP may be consentual, the hostility isn't.
As I've already mentioned it's handy for chasing people out of your games, or away from your target. For instance if you're trying to baal in an A1 quest game, and see another 40ish guy there who you could infer is doing the same, hostiling them is a good way to see who gets the exp that game. You couldn't just say "duel you for it", but thanks to hostile, you do get to say "I'll kill you if you go for it".
Thirdly, it's insulting to be hostiled.
Far more insulting than any text someone could come up with, especially since players can always just be squelched if their chat is bothering you. Insults are a great way to convince people who might not want to duel to leave town, and hostility is the king of them. It's the difference between walking up to someone you don't like and asking if they want to fight, or walking up to them, dumping a beer on their head, and spitting in their face. It may not be polite, but it's a better way to get the result you're looking for.
Why do I want to be a dick to the guy? Maybe he scammed me. Maybe he sent me a dirty TP. Maybe he's sitting at #1 and I'm at #2 on the ladder. Maybe he was being a prick in chat. There's plenty of reasons to want to kill someone's character other than wanting to waste their time, and the hostile button allows for it.
Did you read my post at all? Clearly you weren't using TPPK to argue that we should get rid of all PK
I know. I was talking to everyone in this thread in general. I was just re-clarfiying for everyone that I'm not arguing for TPPK and the like.
First off, idiots need to be killed.
That's why HC is HC, the idiot population is rather limited.
When the new game opens up a lot of players will be "idiots" in a way.
I don't think Blizzard will feel the need to punish the players who start playing the game a month or a year lafter it has been published.
I might be wrong, but I think they will allow for a safe HC environment (pvm) and an unsafe environment(pvp area's).
It seems consentual PVP was their aim with DII as well, with all the restrictions in place to save players who don't want to get into PVP combat unwanted. Now they have the ability to fulfill their view.
(See how I try to bring this back to D3, let's all do that this thread is spiralling into an OT-fest)
I don't think Blizzard will feel the need to punish the players who start playing the game a month or a year lafter it has been published.
There won't be much of a punishment if they're playing Softcore. It's not wise for new Diablo players to start out playing in Hardcore mode.
It seems consentual PVP was their aim with DII as well, with all the restrictions in place to save players who don't want to get into PVP combat unwanted.
I don't see how you figure that at all. In Diablo and Diablo II there's no consensual duel command or button; there's a completely nonconsensual hostile button, and that's true with or without a WP delay. In Diablo and Diablo II, If I want to engage your character in PVP, I hostile you, which leaves you with three options: fight, leave the game, or run away and hide. It's pretty obvious and evident that the orginal Diablo team wanted PKing.
There won't be much of a punishment if they're playing Softcore. It's not wise for new Diablo players to start out playing in Hardcore mode.
Many players started out on softcore in DII. Then they went for the hardcore option.
This will certainly be the same in the next game (if there is the hardcore option ofcourse).
In Diablo and Diablo II, If I want to engage your character in PVP, I hostile you, which leaves you with three options: fight, leave the game, or run away and hide.
You have 2 options really:
1.fight
for which you consciously have to stay inside the game area
or
2.don't fight
for which you have to open up a TP
the option to run away is just the same as the fight option, you consciously stay in the game area and accept the challenge.
In D2 this made PK'ers have the ability to wreck a PVM game with a hostiling action. This leaves more players unhappy than happy. I think they'll change it and allow more people to enjoy hardcore mode.
You have 2 options really:
I consider leaving the game an option separate from running to town and hiding until the PKer leaves, or someone steps up to the plate to attempt to kill the PKer.
In D2 this made PK'ers have the ability to wreck a PVM game
A PVM game. What is that exactly? There's no such thing. You can't create games and with hostility disabled. It's always there. It's part of the Diablo experience whether you like it or not.
with a hostiling action. This leaves more players unhappy than happy.
Don't speak on behalf of anyone but yourself. You don't know what the community wants; I don't either. That's why I created a poll asking the community if they want PKing. So far, the people who want PKing outnumber people like you. Granted, it's an incredibly small poll and no conclusions can be drawn from it, but it's better than what you have: nothing but talk.
If PKing was truly boring, then there wouldn't be so many people arguing for the allowance of PKing; and there wouldn't be so many PKers. And if you think PKing is boring, then you must think killing the same monsters, looting the same items and completely the same quests as boring, too.
Um okay? Where did I state PKing is boring? I was talking about the situation he described.
As for this topic:
I can *somewhat* see the arguments for PKers, namely the thrill of the hunt and that it adds an interesting twist (for now, I'm staying out of debates on those topics). I will say if you do it for the sole purpose of ruining the game for somebody for laughs (especially in HC), you're an asshat.
If you want a game without PK you are entitled to your wishes, but it seems that a game without legitimate threat on your life please don't claim it's because the alternative is boring.
I'd respond to this but I'm not entirely sure what you said. :crazyeyes:
Mouse_wiz: Reading your post hints on what I was thinking while reading this thread, namely, the other uses of non-consensual PvP. Perhaps somebody is being rude, annoying, w/e, like a necro casting bonewall in Arcane.
Erwwwd: What you suggested isn't a bad idea. I think though if they did that everyone would start screaming 'OMGZ!!!!! D3 IS WOW!!1', as if taking one idea from a game makes it an exact copy. Of course you don't want to make D3 WoWish, but at the same time you shouldn't just simply toss out an idea because another game uses it. I'd love Blizzard to find a happy medium.
My point was that once you get used to HC you don't die to Monsters anymore. It does happen on occasion, but the PvM aspects of the game become a joke. I've personally died twice in two ladder seasons, both to PvM one NM FE Ancient and one lagging out in NM A3 and having dolls go crazy on me.
TPPK ruins games, legit PK adds an element of risk to playing through the game. Legit PK has died out online as chant leveling is rampant and TPPK is everywhere, but the concept of it and its past execution was a good thing for HC. I personally met many of my best HC friends because we were in a pub game and we stuck it out and kept playing together through all the PKers. This can bring a lot of people closer, as opposed to random SC people in the same game.
Thus, from my point of view HC is not challenging PvM, and if you take away the PvP risk that PKs bring to the game you end up with a bland game. It is only my point of view, but it seems that PKs (even waiting them out to keep doing a tough quest you were on) is more of a boon than the sheer boredom of pure PvM
My point was that once you get used to HC you don't die to Monsters anymore. It does happen on occasion, but the PvM aspects of the game become a joke.
This will not necesarrily be the case in D3. I for one think they will make sure it doesn't actually.
Try to go from there when thinking about the new game.
Don't speak on behalf of anyone but yourself. You don't know what the community wants; I don't either. That's why I created a poll asking the community if they want PKing. So far, the people who want PKing outnumber people like you. Granted, it's an incredibly small poll and no conclusions can be drawn from it, but it's better than what you have: nothing but talk.
I wasn't speaking for a community here, just the game I was describing:
1 group of pvm'ers. (Say 6 of them) are unhappy.
1 pk'er is gloating and happy.
HC pk and pkk provide possibly the biggest adrenaline rush I've experienced in any game, and that's competing with tense twitch fpss like the original Unreal Tournament. If tppk and any other potential similar exploits can be eliminated unwanted pk attempts should definitely stay. With a decent few seconds between seeing a big warning icon flash on your screen and being in immediate risk and no tppk, pk has no reason at all to prevent playing socially with strangers. Sure being forced to quit by a level 90 when you're about to kill andy in act 1 normal is a pain, but they could force you to change games equally easily by killing andy without hosting you at all, there are lots of ways to grief without actually hostiling - and game creator has level restrictions to avoid the situation. Regardless, if you stay in a game when hosted the choice to risk fighting them is just as much in your hands as if they couldn't host without you accepting it - and as I've said there are other ways they can grief if that was the case.
The risk of lethal tps being set up is far more of a threat to social play than legitimiate, non script kiddy pk. It'd be neat if you could look through tps in d3 incidentally, not that I would want to completely remove the involuntary threat from other players in HC.
All in all I do have major faith in Blizz to hold onto what has made D2 such a great game.
edit:2k posts on this forum and I never bothered setting up an avatar? hmm...
I wasn't speaking for a community here, just the game I was describing:
1 group of pvm'ers. (Say 6 of them) are unhappy.
1 pk'er is gloating and happy.
Like most of the carebears in this thread, you're acting as if the entire Diablo community is on your side, when from what I've read, that couldn't be any further from the truth (especially when you consider the poll I created).
This group of PVMers -- whatever that means. Are they in this thread? Or are these people you're speaking on behalf of?
And there's more than 1 pro-PKer in this thread. There's 24 in the Hardcore/PKing poll thread I've created, compared to 5 anti-Pkers.
You did post it in a pvp/pk forum, it's obviously worthless as a sample of the greater D2 population. You're bound to get responses primary from hardcore (in the sense of non-casual) gamers who are orientated towards pvp/pk. Post it in the general D3 discussion and you'll get a quite different response (one that still isn't at all representative mind you).
You did post it in a pvp/pk forum, it's obviously worthless as a sample of the greater D2 population.
Actually, it was originally posted in the Diablo III general forum. This sub-forum was created just recently, and my thread was subsequently moved here by a mod. Moreover, PVP/PK systems impact everyone; ergo everyone will look at this sub-forum. It wouldn't make sense not to. So, I don't think your argument holds any water. I've also linked this poll in the official Diablo III forum at Blizzard's website.
bluemoonreturn
30-06-2008, 00:53
highly unlikely, because it's the pvm vs. pvp balance that keeps D2 going.
i would like to see how they are going to fight hacks, because that's what actually ruins the game (d2) most right now.
Won't happen buddy. And this made d2 for the majority of us hardcore players, but just an fyi. Warden anti cheat their super unbeatable anti cheat has been broken since the release of WoW. Took our paid programmers roughly 2 weeks to find an untraceable way to get past it. Unlike most anti cheats this one scans your harddrive causing a considerate amount of lag while activated. We have a means of getting past it and I will not specify as to how so that they can stress over it for awhile. Let me assure you though while we have had no need to bypass it in WoW the return of diablo brings a tear to my eye since I have waited so long for this to come into play :).
GL to all of you and I hope to see each and every last one of you going to hardcore to play with me once more.
mephiztophelez
30-06-2008, 01:13
if there's no PvP component, my interest in D3 will be measured in milliseconds.
seriously, i don't mind PvM and playing through the game and all, but what actually holds my interest is PvP.
Looks like I just can't keep myself away from this argument, no matter how much I want to.
It ruins public games for you. Read the end of my post.
That's not my argument. My argument is that PKing is part of Diablo and to remove it from the game would make it less like Diablo. Yet you continue to insist that it should exist because it's an intended feature. And I could just as easily use that argument against you in stating the fact that many individuals enjoy abusing my previously mentioned aspects.
Hammerdins had a rather major influence on Diablo II's experience and atmosphere. Many claim they would stop playing the game should Blizzard fix their ability to bypass the immune to magic mod.
And how about those Necromancers? After bone-walling the staircase that leads to the Worldstone, they claim that because it's an intended feature, and because they think that doing such things are an essential aspect of DII's multiplayer, it should exist. In their own words, "If you don't like it, either stop playing or get an Enigma." Why does that sound familiar?
These are intended features, and some claim they’re such an integral part of the experience that to remove or fix them in a patch would make it a lesser game.
That's why I created a poll asking the community if they want PKing. So far, the people who want PKing outnumber people like you. Granted, it's an incredibly small poll and no conclusions can be drawn from it, but it's better than what you have: nothing but talk. I'm sure that if I were to create a similar poll asking if whether or not DIII should include Hammerdins with the same destructive and unbalanced ability to bypass whatever immunity, I have a great feeling the majority would vote 'yes'. Does that mean Blizzard should make it so when it obviously corrupts the core mechanics and experience of the game?
It breaks up the monotonous routine of killing monsters, looting monsters and turning in quests. So by your reasoning the unbalanced Hammerdins and the path-obstructing bone walls should exist because it makes the game less linear with not having to contend with monsters that are immune to your attack and having to be ever vigilant should someone unjustly cast a wall in a bottleneck-like area?
But here's something you can try: should this actually change in DIII, simply consent when someone declares hostility towards you. I don't understand why the hard work of PVMers should be ruined and forced to exit.
I just go find another game, or create my own game with level restrictions, or I come back with a higher level, or I sit in games with powerful low-level duelers Yes, it's so simple. Just like acquiring an Enigma to solve the bone wall problem. The point is that you shouldn't be forced to do such things at the expense of others.
Like most of the carebears in this thread, you're acting as if the entire Diablo community is on your side, when from what I've read, that couldn't be any further from the truth (and certainly not when you consider the poll I created).
This group of PVMers -- whatever that means. Are they in this thread? Or are these people you're speaking on behalf of?
And there's more than 1 pro-PKer in this thread. There's 30+ in the Hardcore/PKing poll thread I've created, compared to the 4 anti-Pkers. It looks like you're losing your footing. Whether the majority of the community here are "carebears" or PKers is irrelevant. Erwwwd was merely describing a run.
Now, I've experienced this myself – I recall having a difficult time finding a decent tomb run. Eventually, after hours of searching, I finally found got something, and it was a lot of fun. Until seven players were forced to leave during the run because of a PKer. Some of these players created another run, whereas others (such as myself) simply created private games and whispered it to others -- but alas, not many joined. So we ended up with diluted tomb runs with one or two players in each compared to the previous run. And a level restriction would not have solved anything since it would've prevented a higher level from helping out (which was what some of them were hoping for).
So there you have it. A perfect and indisputable example of a public game and what was an enjoyable social interworking on Battle.net ruined. Oh, but of course – it was only ruined for the seven other players, and not for the PKer. Therefore, this aspect definitely shouldn't change. Nope. And it just so happens to render those who were upset and stuck with a lesser run as "carebears" who want to turn it into "WoW II". Of course.
coldsong
30-06-2008, 01:36
back in classic i had over 100 ears ive made legit (there were no hacks in those days lol), ranging from lvl 9 to 92 (I wp pked ranked #1 barbarian once by hostiling and going to stony. i was lvl 87 and he thought he could kill me)
so dont give me the crap "omg its just time wasting". its not. the ears speak for it.
Read the end of my post.
I did and you don't make any point and/or your points are weak.
Yet you continue to insist that it should exist because it's an intended feature.
So, I guess I'm going to have to play the role of the broken record.
PKing was intended, and it has existed in the Diablo universe for more or less a decade. It's part of the Diablo experience, it's exciting and it breaks up the monotonous routine of killing monsters, cooperating with players and item finding.
These are intended features, and some claim they’re such an integral part of the experience that to remove or fix them in a patch would make it a lesser game.
You're comparing a skill, from a class that existed in one of the Diablo games, with a fundamental game machanic that existed in the Diablo universe for over a decade. That's unreasonable.
I'm sure that if I were to create a similar poll asking if whether or not DIII should include Hammerdins with the same destructive and unbalanced ability to bypass whatever immunity, I have a great feeling the majority would vote 'yes'. Does that mean Blizzard should make it so when it obviously corrupts the core mechanics and experience of the game?
You're not making any argument, and it's hard to follow your twisted logic. Should Blizzard not listen to their community? Should they? Should they listen to them when it comes to skill balance? Should they not? I don't know. I was just replying to this guy's claim that the majority of the Diablo community doesn't like PKing. And there's no equivalence between a fundamental game mechanic that shaped the Diablo universe and one spell from one Diablo game.
Yes, it's so simple. Just like acquiring an Enigma to solve the bone wall problem. The point is that you shouldn't be forced to do such things at the expense of others.
I shouldn't be forced to protect myself against a PKer? OK. You're starting to lose me.
Now, I've experienced this myself – I recall having a difficult time finding a decent tomb run. Eventually, after hours of searching, I finally found got something, and it was a lot of fun. Until seven players were forced to leave during the run because of a PKer. Some of these players created another run, whereas others (such as myself) simply created private games and whispered it to others -- but alas, not many joined.
That's a sad story. *sniff*
You should have just created a game with level restrictions... Oh, but that wouldn't stop the player with a low-level PKer from joining. You could have fought him... Nah, you don't like to fight. I know! You could have come to understand that this has been going on for a decade, and that it's part of the Diablo franchise, and attempted to realize that it makes the game more interesting. More interesting than a game that's just about killing NPCs for hours nonstop.
etslayer
30-06-2008, 02:04
There is no conceivable reason why they would get rid of PK. At most I can see them separating pvp and pvm players. However they have stated already that they will not be separating players by realm. So all logic suggests that there will be PKing in D3 and that's that.
Why would anybody not want PvP in the game anyway? That would kill the franchise. Even if you don't like PvP, have fun playing a game that is grossly unpopular.
Why would anybody not want PvP in the game anyway? That would kill the franchise. Even if you don't like PvP, have fun playing a game that is grossly unpopular.
Nobody is talking about getting rid of PvP, just PKing.
I'll hop into this argument. Of course, if you have a different opinion than me, please feel free to flame me and pile on nasty sarcasm for not being in your camp.
I'll try and break down each point as I see it.
1) PK was in previous games, and since Blizzard never attempted to fix this, it's an intended feature.
Reply - I'll have to agree with what somebody else said here. I don't know much about programming, so I don't know if this is evidence of an intended feature, or a byproduct of how PvP was set up and it was too late to fix it when noticed. But being intentional alone doesn't make it a good idea.
2) If you don't like it, then don't play it.
Reply - I will still play, but I still won't like it. Besides, nobody can say that PK is a set in stone, so that doesn't really make sense until we know for sure. Some people may be trying to get in their opinions now on what they like & dislike, when the game is still malleable.
3) You're a carebear.
Reply - You're a griefer.
4) It makes the game more interesting/dangerous.
Reply - Maybe, but interesting doesn't automatically mean better.
5) Asking Blizzard to restrict PKing imposes your beliefs of fairness onto me.
Reply - This didn't make sense to me. How is it okay that you can force people into a 'Duel or die!' situation, but not okay for somebody to not have something forced onto them?
6) It's fun to hunt others down.
Reply - This makes me think of the saying 'What's fun for the cat is fatal for the mouse'.
7) It's not fatal or that hard to avoid. Just leave or wait for the PKer to leave.
Reply - While this is true, it's still an inconvenient annoyance to the PvMers. (I'm not including somebody with a PvP character for the sake of argument)
8) What's it matter if you're PKed anyways? It's just a game.
Reply - The same could be said for a lot of things, including the removal of PKing.
I'm done for now. I know there's probably more but I'll just tackle those when I can remember them. Now, as I said before I can see the thrill in it and that people are divided on it. I'd love to see a happy medium, and hopefully Blizzard is striving towards one.
blah blah *strawman arguments*
I'm done for now.
So, you compile a list of strawman arguments and now you think you're a genius?
In any case, since you voted against a Hardcore mode for Diablo III (http://forums.diabloii.net/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=4259), I don't think I'll take your Nazi Carebear opinion seriously. It's pretty bad when you vote against an optional mode of play, that wouldn't affect you at all personally if you chose not to participate in it. I hope for your sake that vote against Hardcore mode was just a forum glitch or something, but I have a feeling it wasn't.
That's a bit weird. PKing is meaningless in Softcore and you vote to not get rid of PKing but to get rid of Hardcore, interesting approach. Make death irrelevant and it will drive away the PKers?
So, you compile a list of strawman arguments and now you think you're a genius?
Strawman? How so? And no, I am not thinking of myself as a genius or claiming to be one.
In any case, since you voted against a Hardcore mode for Diablo III (http://forums.diabloii.net/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=4259), I don't think I'll take your Nazi Carebear opinion seriously. It's pretty bad when you vote against an optional mode of play, that wouldn't affect you at all personally if you chose not to participate in it. I hope for your sake that vote against Hardcore mode was just a forum glitch or something, but I have a feeling it wasn't.
Yes, that is pretty bad. That's why I didn't vote for it on purpose. I had misread the question. Don't really see why an unrelated subject is being brought in to debase my opinion, or how that, even if I had that opinion, makes everything I've said worthless.
YSM: I have to preface this with the concession that I don't play HC all that often. This isn't to say that I don't know what it's like to have several (50+) hours of work as manifested in a level 80+ character wasted by some sadistic PKer in the midst of a nerdrage or other less-reasoned outlet for the bottled-up angst that tends to reside inside certain subsets of the larger population that is the D2 playerbase.
People play games to have fun. While "hunting newbs"-specifically often defenseless ones-may be your sole means of achieving cyber-nirvana, being one of those newbs is certainly not fun for the vast majority of people who choose to spend their time playing the game.
And to address this last point about hardcore mode, you've lost the purpose of this argument. Playing HC may be optional, but being the victim of a TPPK or whatever you HC folks call them nowadays is often not.
Anyway, it's late now. I'm gonna toddle off to bed.
Don't take the above admittedly somewhat pejorative points as insults. When I say 'you', I mean to address all who participate in PKs, not you specifically. I look forward to your response in the morning =)
Niklet
MoUsE_WiZ
30-06-2008, 09:07
sadistic PKer
PKing is no more sadistic than sitting down at a poker table and taking someone's money from them. It's a part of Diablo 2 and to be expected.
Hopefully it will be a part of Diablo 3 because there aren't many other choices for us out there, there's plenty of friendlier games out there for everyone else.
PKing is no more sadistic than sitting down at a poker table and taking someone's money from them. It's a part of Diablo 2 and to be expected.
I would say your example is more akin to PvP, and PKing is more like stealing all of the other players chips and saying 'Play you for them', or stealing tokens from somebody on the slots.
MoUsE_WiZ
30-06-2008, 09:51
I would say your example is more akin to PvP, and PKing is more like stealing all of the other players chips and saying 'Play you for them', or stealing tokens from somebody on the slots.
Nope, the PvP in general is a part of the game, you chose to play a game with PvP in it, accept the consequences.
A player sits down at a poker table with no blinds or antes and starts folding every hand...why would they choose to waste their time like that, poker is obviously not a game that suits them, and yet they choose to play it... apparently there's something they find fun about it or they wouldn't be doing it, but when they start whining that other people keep betting and making them fold, it starts to get annoying.
YSM: I have to preface this with the concession that I don't play HC all that often. This isn't to say that I don't know what it's like to have several (50+) hours of work as manifested in a level 80+ character wasted by some sadistic PKer in the midst of a nerdrage or other less-reasoned outlet for the bottled-up angst that tends to reside inside certain subsets of the larger population that is the D2 playerbase.
Personally, my reasons for PKing: I'm fat and have acne. My father also beats me once every other week when he comes to visit me at Mommy's house.
People play games to have fun. While "hunting newbs"-specifically often defenseless ones-may be your sole means of achieving cyber-nirvana
PKing encompasses all players, not just low levels. And even PKers have to deal with other PKers.
certainly not fun for the vast majority of people who choose to spend their time playing the game.
So, you're another Carebear who likes to speak on behalf of the entire Diablo community.
And to address this last point about hardcore mode, you've lost the purpose of this argument. Playing HC may be optional, but being the victim of a TPPK or whatever you HC folks call them nowadays is often not.
Your wires are crossed. Hardcore mode has nothing to do with my argument for why PKing should exist in Diablo III; and TPPKing has nothing to do with what I'm advocating: legitimate PKing. I was just telling Zoozoo that I won't be taking his opinion seriously because he voted against an optional Hardcore mode for Diablo III, which to me, is an indicator of what kind of player he is. "CAREBEAR STARE! OR I'LL KILL YA!", if you get my drift.
Anyway, it's late now. I'm gonna toddle off to bed.
Alright, honey. I'll be there in 5 minutes. I just need to apply my acne medication first.
Don't take the above admittedly somewhat pejorative points as insults. When I say 'you', I mean to address all who participate in PKs, not you specifically. I look forward to your response in the morning =)
Since you smiled at me over the Internet, it's OK. *smile* *sparkle*
Stop using the word "carebear" its derogative and there is no need to call specific people that.
Also don't call people a Nazi. That's just plain flaming and not allowed per rule 1 (http://forums.diabloii.net/faq.php?faq=rules).
Everyone has their own opinion, respect that, don't lash out. It shows character to keep it to yourself.
Mad Mantis
30-06-2008, 11:43
Report a post you feel violates the rules. Don't make a post to respond.
Report a post you feel violates the rules. Don't make a post to respond.
IMO reporting is kind of unfair without a warning, but OK.
I think it's better to solve things peacefully without mod intervention when it isn't necessary.
Mad Mantis
30-06-2008, 14:57
You can still do that via PM.
coldsong
30-06-2008, 16:43
one thing i wanted to note is, I, for example, build character around being anti-PK. Yes, in many cases i am one of the "idiots" who doesnt TP after being hostiled in a tombs run. On some occasions I even go into public games on a PK character and run with the rest of the sheep peacefully until another PK comes in and hostiles (then I wait for him to come through a wp/dungeon entrance and take an easy ear).
This is the style of playingI prefer, so now how would justify taking away my enjoyment?
Nope, the PvP in general is a part of the game, you chose to play a game with PvP in it, accept the consequences.
A player sits down at a poker table with no blinds or antes and starts folding every hand...why would they choose to waste their time like that, poker is obviously not a game that suits them, and yet they choose to play it... apparently there's something they find fun about it or they wouldn't be doing it, but when they start whining that other people keep betting and making them fold, it starts to get annoying.
I know, I just meant that it doesn't exactly fit since a poker game is agreed upon by both players, making it more like PvP than PKing where the other may not agree to play against you.
I was just telling Zoozoo that I won't be taking his opinion seriously because he voted against an optional Hardcore mode for Diablo III, which to me, is an indicator of what kind of player he is. "CAREBEAR STARE! OR I'LL KILL YA!", if you get my drift.
Yep, you got me. I guess when I stated 'please feel free to flame me and pile on nasty sarcasm for not being in your camp', you took it to heart.
MoUsE_WiZ
30-06-2008, 19:04
I know, I just meant that it doesn't exactly fit since a poker game is agreed upon by both players, making it more like PvP than PKing where the other may not agree to play against you.
That's exactly what I'm saying though, they agreed to play against me the moment they logged on, and the mentality that they didn't is kind of ridiculous.
I am beginning to see the other side of the argument more clearly. However as part of the debate has boiled down to an opinion war, I would like to talk about a part that is hopefully objective.
Mouse_Wiz brought up the good point that not having a PK button has its downsides. What is to prevent another player for harassing you, training monsters to you, or stealing your items? There is very little you could do. On the flip side, there is the same problem of PKers declaring hostility unwarranted, or simply to harass/kill weaker players.
Now that I think about it, there are definitely times where I could and should have declared hostility at someone to make them leave my game. Bothersome players and just plain leechers. But as I have stated before, I have been pushed out of public hardcore by similar but unwarranted behavior.
Now I cannot think of a way where both crowds of people are satisfied. If PvP is consensual, then players have no way of stopping leechers. If it is not, there is no way to stop PK'ers from ruining your accomplishments. Anyone have an idea for a system that satisfies both these sides?
You know, I can't help but find this argument almost as addicting as the game itself.
You're comparing a skill, from a class that existed in one of the Diablo games, with a fundamental game machanic that existed in the Diablo universe for over a decade. That's unreasonable.
Really? I could've sworn the unique hack-and-slash element was a fundamental game mechanic that shaped the Diablo universe.
I can assure you that the Diablo franchise would not have crumbled had Blizzard never instated PKing to begin with (read: I'm referring solely to PKing, not dueling). Yes, there may have been outcries for such an option, but by no means would the game be any less loved, addicting and/or critically praised than it is today. The game obviously has much more to offer than that.
I don't see what's so unreasonable about it. Just because it's been around for over a decade doesn't make it infallible. But hey, feel free to enlighten me.
I shouldn't be forced to protect myself against a PKer? OK. You're starting to lose me.
You misunderstood me. I was explaining that just because the problem can be solved by acquiring an Enigma doesn't mean I should be restricted and/or obligated to either go out and get one or stop complaining (the same applies to PKing).
That's a sad story. *sniff*
You should have just created a game with level restrictions... Oh, but that wouldn't stop the player with a low-level PKer from joining. You could have fought him... Nah, you don't like to fight. I know! You could have come to understand that this has been going on for a decade, and that it's part of the Diablo franchise, and attempted to realize that it makes the game more interesting. More interesting than a game that's just about killing NPCs for hours nonstop.
You ignored a portion of my paragraph. I specifically stated that a level restriction would have prevented a higher level from joining and helping out; therefore, the creator of the game decided not to add it.
You're also making pointless and incorrect assumptions. Never once did I state or imply that I didn't like "fighting". Contrary to your implication, I enjoy a good duel as much as the next person (in fact, other than MFing, it's my absolute favorite aspect of the game. But there's a difference between dueling and PKing), but a level 16 versus a 92 (or was it 88?) wouldn't have faired too well for me. Besides, I wasn't looking to duel; I was looking to level my Paladin so I would at least have a decent character with which to duel. If I wanted to duel, I'd have joined or created a game titled "Let's Duel". (Which I sometimes do, you know, when I'm in the mood to duel as opposed to being forced into it when I'm instead in the mood to "monotonously kill NPCs for hours on end" with other individuals.)
And there's no equivalence between a fundamental game mechanic that shaped the Diablo universe and one spell from one Diablo game.
Correction: dueling is a fundamental multiplayer mechanic that helped shape the multiplayer aspect and experience of Diablo. Dueling is what breaks the monotonous routine of killing AIs, looting, and turning in quests. I understand that the prospects of PKing can be an exciting feature, but it's a variant of dueling and more of an unjust irritation above all else.
You're making it seem as though it would render dueling meaningless and turn the game into a brain-dead clicking fest. We all know this isn't the case.
So, you compile a list of strawman arguments and now you think you're a genius?
You've lost your grip on the argument. Your attempts to refute certain statements consist of little more than petty derogative remarks and misconstruing of said statements. This is typically evidence that one is incapable of handling an argument.
One more example: I also recall the joyful time I attempted to tackle The Arreat summit in hell. The only problem is that it was the start of a new ladder season and I had created a fireball Sorceress, and since one of the three fellas are immune to every type of elemental damage, it's nigh impossible to accomplish it by yourself. So I had to create a public game and hope a character with a different build would aid me.
Eventually someone came along, but, oh hey~! It was a PKer, and an Auradin at that. I decided to hold my ground and get slaughtered in hopes that this PKer would get bored and leave, but he was persistent. Two other players eventually joined, to which the PKer declared hostility, and that ended with said players leaving.
My only option was to create another "Ancients Help" game, and what do you know?! There he was yet again! Because this was during a weekend (which is what little time I have to enjoy the game), it certainly didn't help the matter.
So tell me – what exactly is one to do in such a situation? Was I really supposed to just keep quiet and wait until next weekend in hopes that that Auradin wouldn't be around?
Perhaps if my experience with PKers weren't as irritating as they were I'd perhaps be a bit more partial to your outlook on the matter, but as it stands, it's only common sense that the exciting experience I could've had with those two other players in attempting to kill the Arreats should not have been ruined at the expense of that Auradin.
This is quite a logical and simple to understand fact. And an irrefutable one, at that.
But, yes – I know. Just because some of us want to remove this as a probability essentially renders us "carebears" who should simply take up WoW. Why wouldn't it?
You know, I can't help but find this argument almost as addicting as the game itself.
I find it annoying because we're just running around in circles; and you're particularly annoying because you're long-winded.
You don't like PKing because you think it's unfair and it ruins your experience.
I like PKing because it adds another dimension to the game, adds excitement and difficulty (I like challenging gameplay). It's another option players can play with (I'm not a fan of extremely simplified, restrictive and homogenized games). There's also no denying that it is part of the Diablo experience -- an experience that has been extremely popular with the gaming community, despite the fact that it encompasses PKing. In fact, it may have been the inclusion of that option that contributed to Diablo's popularity.
More or less, that's essentially the bottom line.
Really? I could've sworn the unique hack-and-slash element was a fundamental game mechanic that shaped the Diablo universe.
It's not either/or. PKing is but one spoke of the wheel called Diablo.
I can assure you that the Diablo franchise would not have crumbled had Blizzard never instated PKing to begin with
I don't think it would have, either -- but would it had been as popular as it is today? Would it had been as enjoyable (I speak for myself when I say, no). We don't know. In any case, there's no point speculating on what could have happened. What did happen was Blizzard decided to give players the option to PK, and that the game is immensely popular.
But there's a difference between dueling and PKing), but a level 16 versus a 92 (or was it 88?) wouldn't have faired too well for me. Besides, I wasn't looking to duel; I was looking to level my Paladin so I would at least have a decent character with which to duel.
The definition of PKing is simply spontaneous nonconsensual PVP; that's why it's more exciting and interesting than dueling; i.e., "I challenge you to a duel my good sir! Do you accept?" And it's not always a high level picking on a low level, either. I've seen low level players attempt to PK and succeed in killing high level characters many times before.
And you claiming that "I" cannot argue is both ironic and hilarious, to say the least. I think it's pretty obvious who's the one making points here. "PKing ruins my experience with Diablo, even though it's part of the Diablo experience that I've agreed to play!" and "PKing is unfair, sometimes! It gives players too much freedom! *gasp* Someone might hostile, or worse, kill my low level with a high level!" Aren't very solid points in my view; and it's annoying that it takes you several paragraphs to explain that kind of stance. And please, don't tell me I'm using the strawman fallacy here because that's exactly what your stance is, except that it's not as comedic.
All I ask is for you to be more direct by admitting that your tastes are bland, and consequently you want a straightforward, safe and planned experience when playing Diablo, then be done with it.
Does it really matter if PK was a part of the previous Diablo games? There are parts of it that are inherently unfair, and should be fixed.
I'm done with this thread.
The debate going on here can be boiled down to this:
Some of the community is advocating a safer Diablo world by removing PKing.
Some of the community is advocating the conservation of PKing, so the Diablo world will stay exciting (more so without PKing, anyway).
Of course, people's opinions are more complicated than that, but to me, those are the two main philosophical differences of the opposing sides.
And today's videogame developer more commonly sides with the former, rather than the latter of the two, which is unfortunate for my kind (lol @ kind).
Later. :coffee:
coldsong
01-07-2008, 13:13
really? you can grief the hell out of someone in WOW on a pvp server by corpse camping, and WOW is as carebearish as blizzard ever got.
Burst Cancel
01-07-2008, 19:31
I've always found something odd about needing someone's permission before I can kill them.
PK works better in MMOs, where you can find the bastard later and do unto them. It works even better as part of a Faction system where characters of certain races are inherently hostile to those of other races. Diablo PK is somewhat cowardly in the sense that you can zap into some random game, flatten a bunch of hapless newbies, and then vanish into the crowd.
etslayer
03-07-2008, 22:34
Getting rid of PKing will not solve the ******* problem on bnet. There will always be people who play to piss people off, and there is an unliminted number of ways of doing it regardless of PK being enabled or not. Putting such drastic limitits on PvP is an artifical and ineffective way of achieving "cooperative gameplay". It's like trying to abolish racism by eliminating freedom of speech... its completely artificial and doesn't help society.
PKing in itself is not always a nice thing to do, but it is not an issue of whether it's polite or not. PKing is a result of the realism that D2 brought to the table. Why should this realism be comprimised to please people who don't like realsim in their game? If you don't like it, play a pussified rpg like WoW or something.
People forget that Diablo has always been geared towards a mature audience. It's not a game appropriate for children, yet Blizzard is revamping the core elements of the game to deal with these kids. It's obsurd.
Blizzard offered level restrictions, private games, friends lists, everything under the sun to allow people to play with others who share their interests. Yet players fail to utilize these features and blame everyone else for "ruining their game". I am truley amazed at how shortsighted Blizzard has been concerning this issue.
CruelMick
04-07-2008, 07:19
I have no qualms with it in SC, as it has no consquences.
In hardcore though, I think it is inappropriate. What satisfaction can the lvl 90 sorc get from killing a group of 30+s with one blizzard? We all know the characters get more powerfull with levels, it is just spoiling the game for others. Nothing wrong with countering that.
What if lower level players could have some type of anti-pk potion that would act like "Iron Maiden" on a high level punk and kill the level 90 when they cast Blizzard or whatever then it worked on them instead:nod: Now that would be cool. It would make pk'ers think a little before attacking at unfair odds.
I like pk'ers cause its like an extra monster in the game that makes you think when you go out into the world.
A step further is that pk'ers would get bounties on their heads and Bounty Hunters could kill them and get rewards ....maybe in hardcore the Bounty Hunters would get to pick through the equipment the pker' was wearing....why not since after they were killed they can't use the stuff anymore anyway.
Pk hunting could become a great sport in its own right.:whistling:
This thread is beginning to get meaningless really. We all know that Pk-ing will be removed in Diablo III because Blizzard doesn't want their players to be harassed in such a way. Besides that the discussion in this topic is long overdue since not one person is willing to accommodate at least in some extent to the viewpoints of the others.
Besides that the discussion in this topic is long overdue
May have been the reason for this thread having 3 posts (including yours) in 14 hours... :scratchchin:
coldsong
04-07-2008, 13:53
This thread is beginning to get meaningless really. We all know that Pk-ing will be removed in Diablo III because Blizzard doesn't want their players to be harassed in such a way. Besides that the discussion in this topic is long overdue since not one person is willing to accommodate at least in some extent to the viewpoints of the others.
haha, keep wishing for it to be removed. ill put my money on blizzard optimizing the hostile process (+-3 levels to be able to hostile, or something along those lines)
long live legit pking
May have been the reason for this thread having 3 posts (including yours) in 14 hours... :scratchchin:
ah well I like to state the obvious, makes me feel like I got something useful to add to a topic :)
haha, keep wishing for it to be removed. ill put my money on blizzard optimizing the hostile process (+-3 levels to be able to hostile, or something along those lines)
yeah I can agree that they probably won't remove pk-ing in its entirety, but like you said they will most certainly limit pk-ers so that they only fight people around their own level, which was basically the most critical point about the whole system.
Do you guys really enjoy putting a ton of time into a debate that will change nobody's mind?
:coffee: Well put.
I do find it interesting tho, that there are some interesting examples of what I would call - levels of integrity.
I mean, take for example what both sides seem to agree on. Hacked PK = Bad.
They are defineatly out there still, and I suppose that they could also use a similar arguement that legit PK peeps use. Since it's Blizzards fault for leaving the front door open on their software, it would be only natural to expect people to take advantage of that situation...shame,shame on Blizzard? lol.
How is that sooo much different then someone taking a higher level, dupage or a otherwise overpowered character into a game to PK? To me, your still
just taking advantage of a situation, in which the fix is to either make a private game, play SC, or rather, just go play with yourself:badteeth:
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.0 Copyright © 2013 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.