The fate of Diablo(and his soulstone) [Archive] - Diablo 3 & Diablo 2 Forums @ Diablo: IncGamers

Droezd

22-04-2008, 16:14

skyjuice

22-04-2008, 17:27

Diablo's soulstone wasn't destroyed.

Alot of people assume that the cutscene at end of act 4 when the narrator (marius?) says the SOULSTONE at hellforge was destroyed it was actually Mephisto's. (Mephy dropped his stone at durance 3 remember?)

Someone correct me if i'm wrong.

Diablo and Baal are simply killed by the PC, whatever happened to their soulstones, only Blizzard can think of.

SmittySixTen

22-04-2008, 17:36

We see both (Diablo's and Mephisto's smash. Also, he says stones.

sirwhere

22-04-2008, 17:37

skyjuice

22-04-2008, 18:03

Of course it's Diablo's soulstone destroyed at the cutscene. Mephisto's was already destroyed by YOU in the forge quest :)

I just rewatched that cutscene. There was no mention of soulstoneS. The PC destroyed the soul stone at hellforge, and that was what the cutscene is about. You smashing meph's soul stone!

Droezd

22-04-2008, 18:17

I just watched the Epilogie for Diablo 2 and I quote: "I heard later that he was defeated, and the soulstone(s) were destroyed at hellforge. All except one." You see the hammer strike down twice. The first stone bluish or purple and the second one red. Two soulstones are destroyed. Mephisto's AND Diablo's.

Angel_of_Wrath

22-04-2008, 18:26

Hmmm, I don't think I've ever seen this... but a 10 year gap might do that to a person..

It is possible that the Diablo stone smashed in the D2 epilogue was a false stone, but I dont think this trailer is real lore. It seems really weird that the wanderer could drop the stone, after he drove it into his forehead at the end of D1. Doesn't make sense. Why was he holding it?

prion

22-04-2008, 18:32

that was his anni

hmm actually.....it could have been another shard, since Lazarus released Diablo by smashing the stone.

So maybe Diablo possesed the body of the Hero completely, trapped the Hero's soul in that shard, and then chucked him in the mud!

NASE

22-04-2008, 18:34

If you are the master of the underworld, you call pull a stone out of your head and hold it in your hands.

sirwhere

22-04-2008, 18:50

the soulstone that's left is BAAL's :)

my guess is that the hordes of hell will emerge from the destroyed worldstone keep and we, the heroes, have to go deep inside hell itself to slay the root of all evil (whatever that might be - probably the developer's head.. lol).

Expect thus an MMORPG with every human player joining in the quest to rid the world of demons once and for all.

prion

22-04-2008, 18:55

"once and for all"?? that would prevent them from making another sequel..

sirwhere

22-04-2008, 18:59

ok change that to "over and over again" :p

mince pies

22-04-2008, 22:52

I haven't seen the cinematics in a while, but if my memory serves me correctly, the cinematic goes something like this: "I heard later that He was defeated. And the soulstone destroyed by Hellforge. All except one". It just said that Diablo had been defeated, no mention of his soulstone being destroyed.

Also, I have a question: Would the Prime Evils be stronger if they hadn't been imprisoned in their soulstones by Tyrael?

Arkardo

22-04-2008, 23:20

Also, I have a question: Would the Prime Evils be stronger if they hadn't been imprisoned in their soulstones by Tyrael?

I think so. I believe the reason Diablo was hiding beneath Tristram in D1 and in the Chaos Sanctuary in D2 was to regain his strength.

SmittySixTen

23-04-2008, 00:50

Both Mephisto's stone and Diablo's stone were destroyed by the end of Diablo II. At the beginning of LoD the only stone left is Baal's, however, we never see Baal's stone destroyed and the ending makes no mention of such an event occurring. We don't even see his stone. That does not change the fact that both of the other soulstones are destroyed.

Major spoilers ahead.

As for Diablo 1, Diablo was defeated in the same area that Baal was. This is PRIOR to the game. Both of them were trapped within soulstones, but reason Tal Rasha had to contain Baal within himself is because Baal's stone was smashed into pieces during the battle. Diablo, on the other hand, was fully entombed within the stone, which was moved to the church in Tristram for safe guarding. Eventually Diablo was able to regain enough strength the corrupt the stone, and then begin to corrupt the clergy.

Start Diablo 1.

Diablo corrupted Lazarus and had the Arch Bishop bring King Loric's son to him so he could possess the boys body, which would allow him to manifest himself in physical form again. Well, along comes the hero, who happens upon a still weakened Lord of Terror. Diablo is defeated and the hero, in his foolishness, jams the stone into his head. I don't know if he was trying to contain Diablo, or if he thought it'd grant him power... or what... but he did it. Within a few short days the hero of Diablo I begins to be corrupted by Diablo, which brings us to Diablo II...

In Diablo II, the Dark Wanderer (Diablo as he is trying to fully consume the hero from Diablo I) begins to make his way to the Tomb of Tal Rasha, where he can free Baal. Of course he is successful, and while all of that was going on Meph had succeeded in corrupting the priesthood in Kurast. He is ever so patiently waiting for his two brothers to join the party and venture into hell with him. Sadly, the hero(s) of Diablo II soon nearly catches the three. However, Diablo and Baal have already flown the coop. That doesn't stop us from taking out Meph, though!

In Act 3 we beat the snot out of the eldest brother and head into Hell to face down with Diablo. Of course, along the way we stop by the Hellforge and rid ourselves of that nasty soulstone from Meph (and hopefully get a nice Gul, Mal, or Ist for our trouble). Then of course comes the confrontation with Diablo himself. After we take him out we get a lovely cinematic, showing us that in fact, yes, his stone was destroyed after we beat him senseless.

Like I said, Diablo's stone is destroyed.

Angel_of_Wrath

23-04-2008, 01:03

His soulstone was destroyed yes, but not his soul...? The stone was merely a device to contain the evil, which Diablo had found way to corrupt. Did defeating him on the mortal plane destroy him forever, or banish him back to the demon realm?

Also IIRC, Baal combine his stone with the Worldstone to corrupt it.

aishilee

23-04-2008, 04:00

i read from other thread that the soulstones themselves were like tickets to enter mortal relam. Once destroyed, they will be sent back to hell and nv again reach mortal relam, unless they reforge the soulstones.

hmm but The 3 prime Evils Were said to be banished to mortal relam by the lesserEvil.. ok.. so..

hmm. who/how(what) make the soulstones?

prion

23-04-2008, 05:43

Tyrael made the Soulstones out of pieces of the Worldstone. (I beleive Cain explains this somehwere in-game)

The soulstones create a "spiritual vacuum" when activated. They have the power to suck in and contain any non-corporeal entity. When the stone is shattered, that particular feature is broken. (D1 manual, pg 77)

Interestingly, Diablo had some form of mind powers while still in his stone:
...a power long asleep awakened wthin the dark recesses beneath the Monastery. Sensing that freedom was within his grasp, Diablo entered the nightmares of the Arch Bishop and lured him into the dark, subterranean labyrinth. In his terror, Lazarus raced through the abandoned hallways until he at last came to the chamber of the burning Soulstone. No longer in command of his body or spirit, he raised the stone above his head and uttered words long forgotten in the realm of mortals. His will destroyed, Lazarus shattered the Soulstone upon the ground. Diablo once again came inot the world of Man. Although he was released from his imprisonment within the Soulstone, the Lord of Terror was still greatly weakened from his long sleep and required and anchor to the world...
The manual devotes 5 pages to the Sin War and the Binding of the Three, 6 pages to "The Return of Teror", and a page from Jered Cain explaining the origin and use of soulstones, and the fate of Tal Rasha.

Angel_of_Wrath

23-04-2008, 17:44

Hmm that's sort of contradictory. If smashing the stone releases the bound spirit, why smash the rest of them. And if it was smashed, how could the hero drive it into his head... I gotta look up some lore now to find out more.

mince pies

23-04-2008, 18:24

I think so. I believe the reason Diablo was hiding beneath Tristram in D1 and in the Chaos Sanctuary in D2 was to regain his strength.

So when we fight Diablo in DI and DII he's not at his full strength?

Also, about the trailer on the first post, it seems to me like that was the hero from DI talking, as I doubt that Diablo would have been able to take control of him that quickly. Maybe that's why he shot the stone in the mud?

BlackAlien

23-04-2008, 18:59

I'm almost sure that DIII story will start long before Tristram got burned. Like this Blizzard will resolve dilemma of killed Diablo and all possible soul stones. They will keep same existing classes (maybe will have some new). Depending on what class you chose you start the game in that part(city) of the world (assuming its MMORPG).

Lets say if you chose Barbarian you will start game in the city of the Barbarians Harogath. From there you will start your quests and advance in the game. Each class will have different quests (in that way player will want to go through game with each class), but all classes obviously will have the same main aim - kill Diablo. Just the path to get to him will be very different for each class.

Of course Blizzard can make game very huge and long. Lets say, you can not get till Diablo and kill it very soon, because he just does not exist yet in the game! Its like in WoW there could be a portal what is not active ofc, but can be activate after 1 year. Behind this portal will start Act2. And so on. Diablo is found only in Act4. So if they release 1 Act per year, you will be "obligated" to play game 4 years to get till the end and kill Diablo.

To involve Heavens/Hell aspect in game each player no matter of class can chose on what side he is more likely to play. Your play(kill) style changes ofc depending on which side you are as well as quest and main aim. For example, Dark side Sorceress main aim could be to kill Tyrael!
Also skills are very different for same class depending on side you play. For example Sorceress choosing Heaven side could use white magic, while Sorceress demoness - black magic with completely different spells. Your main city changes too depending on side you chose.

Lets imagine what possibilities it can bring with existing classes:
1. 7 main classes 2 possible sides to chose = total 14 characters to play, each have completely different quests.
2. Each class could have 3 possible build styles. This brings up 42 ways of playing the same game with 14 different paths/quests to reach 2 main aims - kill Diablo or kill Tyrael (or similar).
3. This all in huge New gen MMORPG with reactive (I hope) environment

Of course Blizzard can add more classes, builds etc what can bring ven more possibilities.

Dorfoumous

23-04-2008, 20:07

Something that I'm suprised that you all are missing is this:

Mep and Baal are the only two you defeat in the "mortal" realm.

Mep you crush his soulstone.

Diablo you kill WHILE IN HELL, so he would not need a soul-stone to get into the mortal realm, and therefore you have killed him period.

Baal is the only one left, and you don't smash his stone....

aishilee

24-04-2008, 03:35

So if the soulstone is to contain the spirit of the prime evil.. then why do you want to shatter them ? wont that release the spirit? why not juz erm.. keep it in a drawer or closet.

Orphan

24-04-2008, 06:42

So if the soulstone is to contain the spirit of the prime evil.. then why do you want to shatter them ? wont that release the spirit? why not juz erm.. keep it in a drawer or closet.

I seem to remember something being said about the special capabilities of the hellforge, which makes shattering the soulstones there better than other places.

prion

24-04-2008, 11:21

So if the soulstone is to contain the spirit of the prime evil.. then why do you want to shatter them ? wont that release the spirit? why not juz erm.. keep it in a drawer or closet.

that was the original intent :D
problem is, by the beginning of the story of diablo ii, and perhaps way earlier, all of the stones had been broken.

Mephisto telepathically corrupted the priesthood of Zakarum and directed the Council to shatter the Soulstone. The shards pierced the palms of each of the council members and the largest shard went into Sankekur, who Mephisto possesed and used as his body.

So the stones are already broken and smashing the main shard is intended to destroy it's power entirely

mince pies

25-04-2008, 18:13

Diablo you kill WHILE IN HELL, so he would not need a soul-stone to get into the mortal realm, and therefore you have killed him period.

Shouldn't that mean Diablo would just respawn again right next to you? I thought once you defeated the Prime Evils they respawned in Hell, or am I missing something?

Dorfoumous

25-04-2008, 20:14

Shouldn't that mean Diablo would just respawn again right next to you? I thought once you defeated the Prime Evils they respawned in Hell, or am I missing something?

thats the point...you killed him in hell...means he is dead. for good.

mince pies

25-04-2008, 22:02

I'm sure I heard somewhere that the Prime Evils are immortal

minizx

26-04-2008, 22:37

i thought that when the soulstones where destroyed it would stop them having access to the mortal realm through the soulstones like diablo did and also defeating them would banish the prime evils back to the depths of hell, i thought it was more a screw up to start with believing that the soulstones would be able to hold the prime evils by tyriel and the rest of his scooby doo club

Luckymofo

27-04-2008, 08:15

Isn't this moderately confusing? :)

I don't care much about the story as long as they make D3

wolfrevenant

27-04-2008, 11:26

I think the soulstones would have been able to hold the Prime Evils if not for Izual. Izual was the one who told them how to corrupt the soulstones. Furthermore, Izual was also the one who suggested to Tyrael to use the soulstones. Tyrael was basically being played for a fool all the way and the mortals in turn, suffered for it.

Orphan

28-04-2008, 08:05

thats the point...you killed him in hell...means he is dead. for good.

You technically also kill Diablo in Hell in D1.

minizx

28-04-2008, 10:53

also i watched the cut scenes for the first time in 3 years yesterday and baal was'nt imprisoned in a soul stone he was imprisoned inside the body of the priest tal rasha and then bound by the other priests and left to wrestle with him for eternity until he was relesed im thinking that the soulstones ar'nt the prime evils life force there just a source of power that helps them to focus there strength on the mortal plain so im guessing that when they do return they will be in search of something else that can give them even greater power than the soulstones, im thinking that the prime evils will be searching for 3/20/20 sc's and light skillers with 45life just imagine diablo joining in a game bellowing WTB TEH LEET SKILLORZ O YOUR SOUL

Luckymofo

28-04-2008, 14:12

You technically also kill Diablo in Hell in D1.

Oh noes! his eyes are glowing too!!!

/OT

I liked the non glowing version better :(

Me2NiK

28-04-2008, 14:18

I'd be willing to wager that anyone who played the original Diablo before Diablo 2 came out had no idea how they were going to bring Diablo back. I don't remember thinking as an eight year-old kid that now that that rock was wedged into my head it was only a matter of time before I turned into Diablo and went cukoo bananas on Tristram.

Dorfoumous

28-04-2008, 21:40

You technically also kill Diablo in Hell in D1.

Not really: I thought that Larazus brought him to the mortal realm VIA King's Leoric son.. ( I could,and most likely wrong)

At any rate: Diablo was "killed" and then put into the soulstone, which the hero stuck his forehead, and then comes back in diablo 2...and you kill diablo for good in hell...without capturing him in the soulstone.

minizx

28-04-2008, 22:56

Not really: I thought that Larazus brought him to the mortal realm VIA King's Leoric son.. ( I could,and most likely wrong)

At any rate: Diablo was "killed" and then put into the soulstone, which the hero stuck his forehead, and then comes back in diablo 2...and you kill diablo for good in hell...without capturing him in the soulstone.

i always wondered why he he did that but im guessing two thing either larzuck was out that day or the world of diablo has never heard of cupboard drawers:grin:

Orphan

29-04-2008, 00:54

Oh noes! his eyes are glowing too!!!

/OT

I liked the non glowing version better :(

Good to see you're still around Luckymofo, though if you've just noticed this then I'm getting a little concerned (it's been this way for a good 7 months now) :wink3:

Not really: I thought that Larazus brought him to the mortal realm VIA King's Leoric son.. ( I could,and most likely wrong)

Well it depends. In D1 the last set of floors were called "Hell" (after Dungeon, Catacombs and Caves), and although I didn't really read into the back story but my understanding was that the soulstone was initially stored below the church, and not necessarily as far down as the hell levels (going from memory the story actually mentioned "caverns", which could be a reference to the caves).

That said, the D1 wiki does mention "Abandoning the idea, he caused Lazarus to kidnap King Leoric's son, Prince Albrecht. He inspired such terror in the child that the boundaries between the realms were broken and parts of Hell appeared in the mortal world, taking root in the labyrinth beneath Tristram", so it may not be the "official" hell, but rather something else brought to the world.

prion

29-04-2008, 04:23

Luckymofo

29-04-2008, 05:14

Good to see you're still around Luckymofo, though if you've just noticed this then I'm getting a little concerned (it's been this way for a good 7 months now) :wink3:

Cool! I got a shout out from Orphan :thumbsup:

AluminumKnight

29-04-2008, 15:09

Ok, so I'm gonna try and summarize what we have so far:

-Diablo's and Mephisto's soulstones are shattered, meaning that they cannot return to the mortal realm. Does this mean that they would normally both "respawn" in Hell?

-Diablo was killed in Hell. What does this imply?

-Baal was encased in Tal Rasha, as his soulstone was shattered. However, Baal was killed in the mortal realm. Does this mean that Baal is simply sent back to Hell?

-Andariel and Duriel were both killed. What happens to them? Since they're not as powerful as the Prime Evils, do they not "respawn" in Hell?

-Azmodan and Belial, of course, never came into the game.

-I guess the biggest remaining question is, what, exactly, does the destruction of the Worldstone imply? How does this effect the "rules?"

minizx

29-04-2008, 17:06

i thought that shattering the world stone would make the world lose its magical properties and only those with shards of the souldstone would have the power to use magic or worldly powers but im too lazy to read any of the diablo books so they may give somekind of insite into what actualy happened

aishilee

29-04-2008, 17:28

Well, it was brought up that it was Izual who taught the prime Evil how to courrupt the SoulStones. So Destroying the Soulstones or not doesnt matter at this point anymore since all of us were all played like a fool.. Thats what tyreal said after we did his Operation : Izuali Freedom..

So .. .. hmm. this is D2 Story is very confusing. Its like creating theories, finding and fitting all the puzzels together.. . Just so we could hopefull predict what d3 would be about. lol.

Aldhissla

30-04-2008, 09:46

So .. .. hmm. this is D2 Story is very confusing. Its like creating theories, finding and fitting all the puzzels together.. . Just so we could hopefull predict what d3 would be about. lol.

Maybe THAT's why the development of D3 has taken so long! It's so confusing that even the guys at Blizzard are having a hard time understanding the lore they've (well Blizzard North actually) created and making a game based on it.

Anyways, this thread makes me want to play Diablo 1 through again, and this time not skipping on the lore part. Maybe I should play D2 without skipping lore too. Hmm.. Sorceror, Rogue or Warrior..

aishilee

30-04-2008, 11:51

ive got D1 in Playstation.. lol now D1 is also included in the Battle Chest. alright. i am playing D1 again too.

imm going for Sorc.

Erwwwd

30-04-2008, 13:27

Diablo will be in diablo III, because in the beginning of that game we'll learn that the entire story of both diablo I & 2 was just a dream!

mince pies

30-04-2008, 17:42

If we did kill Diablo in Hell then wouldn't Azmodan and Belial be there too? I thought they took control of Hell? Also when we're fighting Diablo it says that we're fighting him in the Chaos Sanctuary. We have to summon him by pressing the five seals; so my question is where do we summon him from?

The only reference to Diablo actually going to Hell is in the cinematic, and maybe that's the place where Diablo is hiding when we break the seals. Maybe he was trying to regain control of Hell from Azmodan and Belial

Pyratheon

30-04-2008, 21:06

Id assume diablo or another prime evil is in it, if its gonna be called diablo III. Perhaps Azmodan and Belial have completely siezed power in hell and are now more powerful, as powerful as say, the old primes, because of it. IIRC the reason you have to destroy the soulstones is because they are corrupted and allow the prime evils to stay on earth, and could just come back again and again unless they're destroyed, the hellforge is the only place with this power i think. I don't think it ever mentions that destroying the soulstones would kill the evils. In fact, IIRC i dont even think it ever mentions they r killable, tho its been a while since i checked up on the plots. Perhaps diablo is hiding in wherever he was when you defeated him, baal I think should be alive still, though personally wasn't 2 impressed with baal, the version u see in the cinematics in d2 is so much cooler than the one you fight in expansion. Meph could be hiding too, if defeating them and destroying the soulstones isn't enough.

I think its not really possible to rule much out at this stage, though id like to see where it goes.

Pyratheon

30-04-2008, 21:12

Another cool idea could be setting dia 3 in the past, fighting for tyrael/heaven, or even as tyrael before getting angelfied, and on the opposite side, a demon of some sort. It would also mean they needed little plot continuity as they'd have a clean start, abilities to add new characters, meet cool people, tal rasha etc, visit kurast in the past, discover more about the evils, if you wanted an ending, you could tie it up with tyrael and you binding them in the soul stones, or some other ending, and leave another prequel open.

Dorfoumous

30-04-2008, 21:17

maybe diablo III will just be a revamped Diablo I with way better graphics.

IrreducibleParadox

08-05-2008, 12:54

In my opinion the story should have been continued something like the following:

An angel stands atop a cliff, radiant although the ground at his feet is torn and soiled. Ahead lies the world, sanctuary in all its glory, the woods the fields the souls of all that live. A soft breeze stirrs the air, playfull, quivering. A church can be seen behind the angel, the abandoned church of Tristram. Suddenly the grounds beneath are whispering, the graveyard floor is stirring with the thoughts of restless dead. They whisper of lies, of death and life, of broken promises. Suddenly they echo a name "Belial" it is heard again and again whinchingly from bellow the earth, and then the moans begin to rise. The moans are not like thoughts, they come from the lungs of dead men, hoarse, hungering. The earth begins to move and yet the angel stands perfectly still, a siluette against the burning horizon and the setting sun. Then the world goes dark and the angel is no more. In his place stands a shade, a great darkness that could trick the eye that it was merelly shadow. A tortured scream echoes from the depth of the catacombs, deep and terrifying.

(The camera sweeps through the catacombs in a flash)

We see a room full of light and shadows. A hundred angels hanging chained from the walls. Tyrael is there to and right above him stands the Maiden of Anguish herself. The angels are silent and still. You hear the sound of someone walking into the great hall. Slow unhurried footsteps, a staff against stone. The demoness turns and stares at the approach of an old man, she smiles.
"Belial", she whispers sensually and then continues bemused "or should I say... Cain..?"
The old man laughs.
"The worldstone is broken sister." He tells her almost affectionately "We need no mortal shells to sustain us in this world no longer. We need no mortal names, not even lies, not anymore." Somewhere dark and far away demonic laughter begins to sound. Higher and higher, it's Diablo, it's his brothers. It's the end of the world.

The plot as I describe it would be based on the following, Tyrael got captured by Baal and Diablo when he fought them and lost his sword. From then on, the player has been led onwards solely by lies. Azmodan has masqueraded as Tyrael, the Lord of Lies Belial has mentored the player as Cain. In fact much of the story as it has been told throughout D2 supports this. Mallah wonders at Tyraels notion of destroying the worldstone but adds, "But if Tyrael says so it must be..." The D2 or if it was LoD manual speak of an illusory defeat of the Three before the final battle. They haven't been killed the soulstones have been crushed, but these were used to lock them in sanctuary, to have them take avatars in a world they could not otherwise walk. Now the borders between Heaven and Hell have fallen, soulstones are needless to the evils, they didn't die, not truly. They were freed by the heroes that later damned their own world through breaking the borders between it and Hell whereas Heaven had already been losing the battle outside of the eyes of men.

ohnoyellowdinosaur

11-05-2008, 23:47

maybe blizzard never actually tied the loose ends on the diablo story which is why this is all so confusing. Like, there are conflicting lore.

IrreducibleParadox

12-05-2008, 10:28

maybe blizzard never actually tied the loose ends on the diablo story which is why this is all so confusing. Like, there are conflicting lore.

There might be but can you name an example of conflicting lore that cannot be explained somehow with the presence of the lord of Lies if the storywriters really put their minds to it. I don't think so, maybe in the books but not in the game. My suggestion above for example takes care of the conflicts with the mentioned soulstone.

AnimeCraze

12-05-2008, 11:01

We know all of the prime evils (and some of the lesser ones) got resurrected, only to be killed again. Maybe the hellfire torch will be the new source of hero corruption. :wink3: :wink3:

IrreducibleParadox

12-05-2008, 11:10

We know all of the prime evils (and some of the lesser ones) got resurrected, only to be killed again. Maybe the hellfire torch will be the new source of hero corruption. :wink3: :wink3:

They never neccessairily died, ergo they need never be resurrected. Furthermore the hellfire torch was not a story item.

piggybank

13-05-2008, 08:55

With the world stone being destroyed, I imagine there will be a way for all the prime evils to come back, regardless if their souls stones were destroyed or not.

Flux

16-05-2008, 02:22

In a teaser trailer for Diablo 2, found here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVv41NarVP4,
you see the Dark Wanderer sitting at the back of a wagon talking about what has happened since he left Tristram. He is holding Diablo's soulstone in his hands, but the trailer ends with him throwing it away and leaving it in the mud.
When next you see it, it is embedded in the forehead of Diablo, when you fight him in the game.
If he needed it, why did he throw it away?

The pre-d2 cinematic is non-canon. Something the bliz cinematic team put together to fill the gap between the games, while the actual plot for d2 was still being worked on. Hence the wanderer with his eyes sewn shut, the soulstone in the mud, etc. None of which matches up with what we see in the d2 game plot, where the wanderer is walking and powerful, and a source of corruption as evidenced by the demonic infestations he leaves in his wake in tristram, rogue's monastery, act 2 deserts, etc.

A factor we don't necessarily need to account for, but a reality in the industry, is that the cinematic teams are often quite separate from the game design/story teams. This was especially true for d2, since bliz cinematics were in irvine while the game team was at bliz north. The cinematic team had quite a bit of independence and initiative, so they more or less wrote their own story for the d2 cinematics. (I talked to Dave Brevik about this over dinner at Flagship Studios community day last spring.) The game team had to change the plot repeatedly to match up with what the cinematics guys were doing, since the cinematics took so long to create and couldn't be edited on the fly. Hence the cinematics tell a somewhat parallel story, with the character of Marius created just for them, to provide a narrator to the events unfolding.

As for the game plot, my impression is that we're to believe the 3 brothers sort of allowed themselves to be trapped in the soulstones, since they knew they could corrupt them over time, and that they'd be even more powerful after a few centuries when they had their own powers concentrated by the soulstones. Baal hit the jackpot, since he got the powerful mage Tal Rasha and absorbed his powers along with those of the soulstone. Diablo was strengthened as well by the abilities the human warrior brought along; that's why he's more powerful in d2 than he was in d1. Meph was the weakest of the 3 in D2, since he just had his soulstone boosting his abilities, without any human thrown in as a bonus.

AnimeCraze

16-05-2008, 04:56

Meph was the weakest of the 3 in D2, since he just had his soulstone boosting his abilities, without any human thrown in as a bonus.I thought the assassin lady in act 3 said that the Zakarum Priest (what's his name again) is quite powerful.

You are probably right about the teams being separate, though. Especially when it's back in those days that you can't easily check out a repository when you are far away.

Flux

16-05-2008, 10:58

I thought the assassin lady in act 3 said that the Zakarum Priest (what's his name again) is quite powerful.

Yeah, that's right. I don't recall meph's entire origin in d2; did he possess a priest and use his body + the soulstone?

You are probably right about the teams being separate, though. Especially when it's back in those days that you can't easily check out a repository when you are far away.

I did my senior thesis on storytelling in video games, and as part of that i conducted extensive interviews with all 3 creators of diablo (max schaefer, erich schaefer, dave brevik) last summer. The issue of the d2 cinematics came up when talking to all 3 guys, and it seems to be a sore point with them. Not that they're necessarily unsatisfied with how the cinematics turned out, but they felt they had too little input into the development of them, when the game was their baby.

There's always some disconnect between the cinematics and the game story in every game, since the cinematics take so long to create (and are usually contracted out of company, such as Flagship did with Blur Studios) that the game plot always advances and evolves during development. That's just inevitable, since the cinematics will always be working with what's basically a rough draft of the game plot. The divergence between the game story and the cinematic story was especially great in d2 though. At least so said the d2 design team; personally I wouldn't have noticed it so much, from playing the game and watching the cinematics.

Erwwwd

16-05-2008, 12:08

When playing the game initially I thought it was a missed chance to not have the old guy(the narrator of the cinematics) have a cameo or maybe even an npc appearence in act 4. This may have had something to do with the two departments working seperately.

Spiritclaw

17-05-2008, 05:32

It doesn't matter what happened in any cutscenes for D2. Why? It's simple. When D3 comes out, it'll be revealed that Belial the Lord of Lies created false Soulstones for the three Prime Evils and those will be revealed as what was destroyed in D2. So all the Prime Evils will be able to come back in the next game.

IrreducibleParadox

17-05-2008, 10:50

As for the game plot, my impression is that we're to believe the 3 brothers sort of allowed themselves to be trapped in the soulstones, since they knew they could corrupt them over time, and that they'd be even more powerful after a few centuries when they had their own powers concentrated by the soulstones. Baal hit the jackpot, since he got the powerful mage Tal Rasha and absorbed his powers along with those of the soulstone. Diablo was strengthened as well by the abilities the human warrior brought along; that's why he's more powerful in d2 than he was in d1. Meph was the weakest of the 3 in D2, since he just had his soulstone boosting his abilities, without any human thrown in as a bonus.

Yeah, but it is also true that the primary purpose of the soulstones and the bodies the evils possessed were to act as anchors to sanctuary. A place where the prime evils would otherwise be seriously weakened or even banished. So when the worldstone, seemingly the source of this protection from evil has been destroyed, then perhaps the soulstones are completely useless to the demons and therefore they also let themselves be "destroyed". Basically the heroes are doing them favors once again without realizing it. Setting their souls free and sending them back to the abyss to prepare the final onslaught.

AnimeCraze

17-05-2008, 11:10

Yeah, that's right. I don't recall meph's entire origin in d2; did he possess a priest and use his body + the soulstone?http://battle.net/diablo2exp/monsters/act3-mephisto.shtml
Straight from Arreat Summit. Maybe it's because that his power is split into 7 pieces, that's why he is weaker. :wink3:
There's always some disconnect between the cinematics and the game story in every game, since the cinematics take so long to create (and are usually contracted out of company, such as Flagship did with Blur Studios) that the game plot always advances and evolves during development. That's just inevitable, since the cinematics will always be working with what's basically a rough draft of the game plot. The divergence between the game story and the cinematic story was especially great in d2 though. At least so said the d2 design team; personally I wouldn't have noticed it so much, from playing the game and watching the cinematics.I wonder what companies like Square-Enix do, then, since they have a lot of cinematics, quite highly interleaved with the story.

middleman35

17-05-2008, 11:51

Based on the Final Fantasy movies I'd say they do a LOT of inhouse cinematics. They'd likely be the exception to the rule.

Re: Weak Mephisto, tho it's far far from canon, Mephisto is by far the strongest of the Three in Tristram.

Llama8

19-05-2008, 13:22

Basically the heroes are doing them favors once again without realizing it. Setting their souls free and sending them back to the abyss to prepare the final onslaught.

Perhaps Diablo et al duped Tyreal into using the Soulstones in order to set in motion the events that lead up to the Worldstone being destroyed? Thus allowing Hell (& Heaven) to interact more directly with the mortal plane.

Mestre Crjspim

19-05-2008, 15:09

Some questions for discussion:

- It has been said that Baal had no soulstone. But, Marius takes a soulstone from the chest of Tal Rasha hence freeing Baal and giving him total control over the mages lasting mortal body. Tyrael urges Marius to go to Hell and destroy this stone in the Hellforge, so I'm guessing it's a real soulstone. And in LoD, Baal has it around his neck(?), protecting it... So is it Baal's soulstone or not? I vote for yes.

- Who is Marius? Why did he follow The Wanderer? Why did The Wanderer need a companion? I've reviewed all the cinematics and I can't find one logical reason, not even any aid that Marius gave to The Wanderer. Has said before, I think by Flux, Marius is probably one piece that doesn't fit the puzzle and was just created for narrator purposes. However, he ends up playing an important role in the story development. He is the one to free Baal and ultmately he is the one that gives Baal his soulstone.

- At the end of Act II, in the cinematic, when Tyrael is urging Marius to go to Hell, he is the first one to speak of the portal to Hell that is open under Kuraast. However, in the cinematic where Mephisto opens the portal, it seems that that was a secret shared only by the 3 brothers, and it took all the 3 powers to open it, has seen in "Mephisto's Jungle" cinematic. So, how Tyrael knew of this? One more mistake in the storyline or one more argument that Tyrael is indeed more than he looks?

- If we gossip with Cain in Act IV, he says something curious about Tyrael and the soulstones. It can be explained by what Izual says when we kill him, although it seems that only Tyrael was fooled(?) and not all Heavens... he labbels Tyrael has "enigmatic" even being a Horadrim

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/7103/screenshot001za8.th.jpg (http://img166.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshot001za8.jpg)

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/4771/screenshot002sd8.th.jpg (http://img134.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshot002sd8.jpg)

- In the cinematic "Epilogue", Marius says "I heard he was defeated" mentioning Diablo. He doesn't say that Diablo was killed... "lost the battle but not the war"? And it is said, I believe during Act IV, that by destroying the Diablo soulstone and his physic manifestation would only banish him into the "dark abyss"... it doesn't say that he will be killed for good.

SiTro

20-05-2008, 12:59

Might not be completely accurate, but the AS has this (http://www.battle.net/diablo2exp/monsters/act3-mephisto.shtml) to say about the origins of Mephisto's form in Act 3. This is the story I thought of when it was first discussed above, so tried to find out where I'd read it.

NewGame

26-05-2008, 09:20

What if the worldstone wasn't supposed to be destroyed. what if tyreal is one of those rouge angels that are trying to do something they believe is necessary for the sake of good but in fact is destroying it... Tyreal says at the end after you defeat baal and he pukes all the souls out, that destroying the worldstone will forever change the world for better or for worse. What if mister tyreal wanted to destroy the worldstone knowing it could well mean bringing on judgment day for the entire world. But of course there are many contradictories to my theory but if any one possibly elaborate my theory with me id be more then willing to hear it

Malrenn

26-05-2008, 15:38

Shouldn't that mean Diablo would just respawn again right next to you? I thought once you defeated the Prime Evils they respawned in Hell, or am I missing something?

His soulstone was destroyed yes, but not his soul...? The stone was merely a device to contain the evil, which Diablo had found way to corrupt. Did defeating him on the mortal plane destroy him forever, or banish him back to the demon realm?

Also IIRC, Baal combine his stone with the Worldstone to corrupt it.

You technically also kill Diablo in Hell in D1.
I think this comes from the old D&D notion that devils and demons were forever destroyed if defeated on their native planes.
I personally believe that Izual and Tyrael were/are schemeing and have fooled us all!

Vespar

26-05-2008, 16:49

Perhaps Diablo et al duped Tyreal into using the Soulstones in order to set in motion the events that lead up to the Worldstone being destroyed? Thus allowing Hell (& Heaven) to interact more directly with the mortal plane.

As it has probably been said before, I don't believe that Tyrael was actually a sanctioned minion of heaven. Cain had mentioned how Hell always seemed to act with straightforward tactics while the motives of Heaven had always been unclear and that it seemed maybe Tyrael didn't agree on the actions of his peers and seemed to act of his own voliution.

I think that Tyrael is actually a true minion of hell....perhaps like someone mention Belial the Lord of Lies? And that he not only manipulated the orignal hero and the hero of D2, but also the prime evils into the actions that they took.

Perhaps the corruption and subsequent destruction of the World Stone was a means to actually bring Hell on earth.

Charlo

26-05-2008, 21:00

Very interesting read.

I'd rather D3 be a story-driven 2D game than sum 3D MMORPG

stillman

27-05-2008, 09:09

Smittysixten mentioned uncertainty about why the D1 hero plunged Diablo's soulstone into his own forehead. I would like to address this:
I read somewhere, either on AS or an outdated strategy guide for the expansion when it first came out, that the D1 hero had become very corrupted in his travellings through Hell. His corruption made him decide to do the wrong thing which was to plunge the soulstone into his head. This doesn't really specify the exact reason, just that he was corrupted into doing it. Diablo had played the D1 hero for a fool, so it was really Diablo who was the winner of D1. Now he has a stronger body (the hero warrior) rather than Leoric's son who was just a child.
My guess is that killing all those pretty snow whiches had something to do with the hero's corruption.

Now, about the worldstone's destruction: It is my opinion that the worldstone gets destroyed in order to explain why nightmare and hell mode are so different. Tyreal, or Mallah or w/e, tells you that the world will be a very different place after the worldstone's destruction. Could this simply be the programmers cheap attempt to explain the differences in the difficulties? Are the nm and hell difficulties parallel universes where you have to do the same quests again becasue the worldstone got smashed and messed up reality? That's what I think.

Someone mentioned: "wouldn't Diablo simply respawn right beside you in hell after you kill him?" I believe this is actually the case. It just takes Diablo a little while to regrow a new body, hence you must make a new game. The programmers may want to have some reason for why you can kill Diablo 1000 times over. Of course, if this is so, they messed up by not explaining why you can also kill the summoner and countess 1000 times over. Programmers are pretty bad at some things, like having the whole town treat your chr as the one and only hero, even though 1000's of them are killing 1000's of Andys.

I like the D3 prequil idea. The soulstone technology has not been invented yet, so you could kill Diablo over and over and he simply keeps coming back with different treasure each time. I'd like for them to better expalin how a demon is made. Do they reproduce? Or are demons simply humans who were corrupted, killed and contorted to demon form?

Mestre Crjspim

27-05-2008, 16:03

I'd like for them to better expalin how a demon is made. Do they reproduce? Or are demons simply humans who were corrupted, killed and contorted to demon form?

Demons, as Hell, are products of the most ancient religions and theological theories. They are present in every single religion as the bad side or as an intermediary between Heaven and Mankind, meaning that they are any form of spiritual and mystical beings like angels or fairys.

Demons are described as spirits... evil spirits generally, specially in christian religions. For what I aknowledge, Diablo's lore is focused in a christian related theology. Having Heaven and ANGELS fighting for the salvation(?) of Men - Sanctuary more precisely -, and on the other hand having Hell and DEMONS fighting to corrupt and destroy them. Being so, the origin of demons in Christian theology is due to Lucifer... Satan, the Devil. He was an Angel that was kicked out of Heaven draging with him demons... these demons are no less than corrupted angels. Moreover, once a man dies, he is tempted by Lucifer do regret following Jesus and if he does so, he is thrown in Hell and becomes a demon himself. Even in life a man can become a demon, if a malign spirit possess him.

In this context, having demons and angels such a thin line between them, I can easilly accept the "bad-Tyrael" in Diablo III or even in Diablo II. Until now what really seems obvious and clear as water is that in the 2 Diablo games, our actions end up always causing more harm than good and we are ultimately conned. To this day we don't have the perfect explanation to what happened in the end of Diablo I... maybe in a future we'll learn that we were conned in fighting our way to Hell to become stronger and offer the perfect oportunity to Diablo to corrupt the soul of a great warrior.

We are facing the darkest evils in the world, we are fighting the most impressive forces of corruption, hatred, destruction, terror... no mortal being can win this war... I doubt that even none of the mortals can understand everything that they face...

stillman

27-05-2008, 23:21

That reminds me...the words heaven, hell, angels, and demons are thrown around in the game often. However; we never hear the word God. It's as though mentioning God is too provocative for the game, even though we see blood, torture, killings, etc. We also don't see burning crosses like in D1. So the pentagram is Ok, but the cross is nowhere to be found. This sort of thing bothers me: torture and it's results are Ok to witness, but a degraded cross is too much for the game? So symbols like crosses are more important than human life.
Keep in mind, we know from the D1 Tristram church crosses that Christainity is a religion portrayed in the game, since the cross represents Christ, the founder of Christainity. I'm not sure, but I think archbishop may be a term used only in Catholicism. In D2, they seem to back away from specifying the exact religion. In D2, we don't know for sure if the almighty God (as Christains see Him) even exists. Acording to D2, there is only heaven and angels, and the strange religions of the pally and zon. Wouldn't these religious devotions be blasphemous in the eyes of God's angels? Why is there Catholicism or Christainity in D1, but nothing specific in D2?

PoiZonCraZy

28-05-2008, 01:42

Mestre Crjspim

28-05-2008, 03:11

I think it deals more with $$$. While making Diablo 2, the creators thought it would appeal to a lot more people of different religions/cultures if they stayed away from a specific religion. And maybe it worked, seeing that D2 sold a Hell of a lot more than D1.

Keep in mind that the Paladin has a cross in is armor and that some of his skills are religion connect all the way - Holy Bolt symbol, Fist of Heavens, Prayer aura, Redemption aura, and so on...

Llama8

28-05-2008, 10:52

Archbishop (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/archbishop), apparently isn't solely Catholic, it also "includes" Anglican (Church of England, so not exactly surprising that it uses Bishop/Archbishop) & Greek.

Acording to D2, there is only heaven and angels, and the strange religions of the pally and zon. Wouldn't these religious devotions be blasphemous in the eyes of God's angels?

I think that they would be blasphemous in the eyes of Zakarum, rather than in the eyes of the angels. If there is only one God (in Sanctuary, regardless of what the various churches say, ask an Angel, they're closer to the subject matter), then the Amazons are likely worshiping different aspects of Him(/Her/It).

Mestre Crjspim

28-05-2008, 13:48

... and don't forget the followers of Rathma, the Necromancers.

Very interesting read.

I'd rather D3 be a story-driven 2D game than sum 3D MMORPG

I think that Diablo has one of the best potential backgrounds for one magnificent storyline. Nevertheless, Diablo is a ARPG which means that fast paced action and casual gameplay are it's main arguments.
But, I would really like a deep, intense storyline in a Diablo III game.

PoiZonCraZy

28-05-2008, 15:58

i'd also like the storyline to be kept as dark as D2, or go back to it's even darker roots like D1. i can't get into these games like WoW, or guild wars, or lord of the rings, or any of that happy kiddy sh*t. i want to see mutilated bodies everywhere and guys called "the butcher" and stuff like that. that's what makes diablo so great to me.

it worries me because act 5 in diablo 2 was very "lord of the rings-like" and it definitely pushed away from the darkness of the other two diablo games (sans the expansion to diablo 1, that was more of a sci-fi game... i don't even want to know what the hell that was about.) i hope they go back to a diablo 1 or diablo 2 act 1-4 type of darkness.

stillman

28-05-2008, 22:36

Poizoncrazy,
From reading alot of threads, it seems there is general agreement: no one wants to see WoD. Instead, we want D3: The Butcher Cometh. I noticed that about act 5 too; it looks a little like the wonderful world of Disney when you're in the worldstone keep with all those huge colored walls/corners. I definitely prefer the steel lords of D1 to the humanoid demons with animal heads (the moon lords) which remind of of Mickey, Donald or Goofy. I found that D2 playing was so good, that the dimishing of the dark atmosphere from D1 was forgivable, but I too hope they don't water it down further for D3. The blood more had such soft, green, fields...a very noticable difference from the muggy chambers benieth Tristram.
Mestre Crjspim, I completely forgot about the Pally crosses in his skill tree symbols. I figgure there are two possibilities: 1-the cross on his armor is more of a plus sign than a crucifix and is just an England-style symbol kind of like the rugged lion. And, the crosses on his skills like holy bolt are just to give us, at a glance, the concept of 'holiness' without being linked to his actual faith (kind of like the necro's revive skill symbol with the cross just to represent a spiritual aspect to the spell). 2- Or, the crosses tell us that God is a factor of the game, Jesus was crucified (or will be?) on the cross, and there are a few loose ends that need to be tied with regards to other gods and goddesses that grant classes like the Amazon special powers. Idk, the world map I recall from the D1 booklet wasn't meant to resemble Earth, but rather a different fantasy world. Maybe anything goes and gods all get along here. Just a thought, but in the movie Excalibur, Merlin states that the gods are leaving from the Earth and the one true God is taking over. Of course, this example does not hold with creationism views (i.e. God is VERY insistant that there is just Him), but it's an example of how various gods co-exist with the God from the bible.
Maybe D3 will have a recap where they expalin what happened with the soulstones, the journey of each stone, when each got smashed (or didn't) and even how they were fisrt discovered.